>> from the heart of where money, innovation, and power collide, from silicon valley and beyond, this is "bloomberg technology" with caroline hyde and ed ludlow. caroline: i'm caroline hyde. ed: i am ed ludlow in san francisco. caroline: elon musk sous openai & altman allegedly violating the company's founding mission.

ed: we have for earnings coverage and sit-down theses of fisker. shares are plunging and the survival is in doubt. caroline: we take you -- we get the takeaways from the mobile congress in-- where is apple? let's check in on these markets. a new day, newmont and we are all about technology investing. we are up on the back of the nasdaq. singable back on the 10-year note, down seven basis points. are we seeing a little bit of weakness in consumer sentiment? some economic data today shows maybe we won't see the federal reserve having to pause on cutting focus. it isn't just the u.s. rise in terms of equities. we have seen europe at a new record high.

a new record high as well. china did well, some of the economic data still showing contraction but not as bad as had been expected. we are up .5%. global stocks, a new day of a new month. look what is happening in the world of crypto. we are still managing to push onto 61,000 level. a little bit lower on friday but it has been a stellar week for this asset come up almost 20% over the last five trading days. what have you got coming up? ed: there is so much to discuss. dell, one of the movers to the upside. everyone has woken up and learned that dell does more than a pc's. we know the ai africa aaa's doubts are underway. they also do servers and server designs and the streetlights what they have to say, getting a lot more love for their ai story . later in the program, fisker's

ceo is going to join us. the stock is down 45%. a growing concern, they are cutting 15% of their workforce. they're giving us a conservative number for deliveries this year. it is a company nowhere near its peak or heyday after it went public in 2021. we have so many questions for and rick -- henrik. looking at microsoft, i'm not saying this is a causal link, it can be. microsoft can be a proxy for investor sentiment toward openai because microsoft owns 49% of the for-profit side of openai. we have our top story coming but shares are softer. it is important to what we are about to discuss. caroline: talking about elon musk, how he is suing openai & altman alleging they violated

the -- and sam altman alleging that by the start of -- startup's mission. it states the company's close relationship with microsoft has undermined its mission of creating open source technology that would not be subject to corporate biology/corporate priorities. -- to corporate priorities. he is not the only one who said this, keifer lee told me he thinks openai should be rebranded closed ai. he is one of the most vocal critics having been any regional founder and donor. >> and making points elon musk has been making for months. he has been complaining i put a lot of money into this, $44 million over the first few years. it was partly my idea, you recruited these people on the strength of my personality and the promise was this was going to be an open source for the

benefit of humanity and now it has a valuable deal with microsoft, huge revenue, skyhigh evaluation. sam altman is talking about starting bigger ventures and elon musk has been asking for months, how did this happen? as he sat on podcasts and so on, is this even legal? this is partly a stunt. elon musk has a partner company, doing many of the things that he is accusing sam altman of doing. some say he is mad because openai is doing the better than that elects ai -- better than x ai. ed: i spoke to openai and at this point they declined to comment. i don't know it is that much of a surprise given musk's history of using litigation for various end goals.

you talked about the elephant in the room, i know musk engaged with someone else saying the discovery process is going to be interesting because we might learn what happened that weekend that assembles been briefly lost his job. max: elon musk, he loves this spectacle. he loves a stunt and he loves to stir the pot, to start beef with various billionaires and other rich guys. part of it is that, a way for him to attack a potential competitor and call attention to the role he played in this valuable industry. if you look at what elon musk wants, what the lawsuit asks for, it is asking for a judge to make the technology open source which i suppose could hurt microsoft and openai's

prospects. he is also looking for a ruling on whether or not gpd for -- g pt4 constitutes artificial intelligence. he says it is which would benefit the case which would invalidate this microsoft deal or a judge writing down that openai's product is overhyped and not as good as they have been saying. it is an interesting way to attack a competitor from any unexpected angle. caroline: we might say elon musk because of the skin in the game and if you go back in his history, his worry about ai getting into privately held hands. he tried to buy deep mind before google bought it. give the benefit of a doubt. he has a point potentially in that openai has totally changed

the way in which it is structured, profitability, and of the eu and u.s. are both investigating. max: he does have a point saying we are doing this for the benefit of humanity meanwhile we are raising trillions of dollars for this for-profit enterprise. there is something consistent there. if openai is hypocritical, elon musk is also hypocritical. one of his complaints is sam altman exerted too much control over openai. let's look at tesla, elon musk exerts near total control over tesla. he is in an argument to get more control and has threatened to take his ai elsewhere if he cannot control it. it is good enough for elon musk but not good enough for openai. caroline: hypocrite versus hypocrite. ed, you heard from the other hypocrite. ed: i wrote to elon musk and

asked him to join our program. i did speak to his lawyer who politely declined to give an interview or, the program. that is my question, we talked about elon musk's history of litigation. whatever his motivations are, i don't understand what the end result is. we know are looking at openai's model and people position ship with microsoft. the compute costs are high, they're commercializing as quickly as they can. what is muska going to try to get out of this? -- elon musk going to try to get out of this? max: i think the goal is to attack a competitor. he has a point here. there is something weird about the structure as we have been talking about and others have been talking about and regulators are going to be looking at. one interpretation of this structure is it was a way for microsoft to get around antitrust concerns.

rather than buying an ai company, it invested in this nonprofit. this is going to create further complication for openai and microsoft. i don't know if it is going to have a huge impact. as the lawsuit acknowledges, openai has the market-leading technology. microsoft is putting it in all of their products, outlook and excel and someone. this is not going to stop that with it is going to create headaches for microsoft and openai and ultimately elon musk. ed: an way to start the show. let's -- an incredible way to start the show. let's see what happens. the other player we have been talking about, google. it's stock has not been doing well after it had to posit it's gemini aim-ish generator -- gemini ai image generator. let's bring in ryan who has been

trying to track it. what do you think investors are believed focused on here with google? i remember when bart came out and we had the hubble telescope gaff. this week and the decline is less severe but still there. ryan: it's speaks to how people are so focused on ai and who is going to be the real leader, especially when it comes to generative ai and search. any perceived misstep or controversy or inaccuracy is going to be a reason for people to shoot first and ask questions later. you have seen the stock with both directions when it comes to alphabet's position in this technology which has become the focus for anyone on wall street and in silicon valley. caroline: you are right to point out this has happened before last february when bart was questioned -- bard was questioned.

we have not seen a market share erosion. ryan: people continue to use google relative to being -- bing . because google's market share is dominant, is it on the defensive here and doesn't need to do this investing and do these tweaks and make sure its product is as good as possible for maintain its current share? that is a real concern. so much of alphabet's revenue is generated from internet search and the advertising that comes with it. that is something people are very concerned about and we are seeing short-term moves. this is going to be some thing that plays out over a longer period of time. when people are concerned about what is going to be landscape for ai technology, any sense of who is falling behind is being closely watched. caroline: they were of -- they

were so out in front when they bought deep mind and now they seem to be misfiring. we thank you for this story. coming up, we are going to dive deeper into tech markets and into crypto after bitcoin's rabbit run -- rapid run. what are you looking at? ed: apple because apple declines are accelerating, down 1.4%. goldman sachs removed apple from his conviction list but raised its price target on the stock to 232. they are saying all these concerns about new products, growth, china, apple has a strong ecosystem even so. it is removed from the conviction list, there seems to be a lack of conviction. we will be right back. this is "bloomberg technology." ♪

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caroline: we are still in price discovery mode according to mike . bitcoin, the highest since november 2021, a $60,000 handle. $69,000 is the record back in 2021. let's get a kick on this case. fiona cincotta joins us. we talk about supply and demand dynamics, the reason it is higher. people fall back on me saying why are you putting such label case out there?

i am not, i'm sticking with the prices are going. why not get into this asset? fiona: people case is quite clear. there are concerns that we have seen these parabolic rallies in bitcoin before and they have resulted in a decline. if history is going to repeat itself, if we are looking at the charts of where we were in 2021, we have seen this steep rally followed by a steep drop. there is a concern, is it overdone? i do still think despite the suggestions there could be a very case, it is difficult to hunt in on that when there are so august the in favor of a bullish case. looking at the etf demand we are

seeing, keep in mind in fact we have the having event in april which is going to slow down the supply of bitcoin. these factors combined really support that. perhaps we could cdf demand -- etf demand start to fall off but i don't see that happening. this has flung open the door to institutional investors and that is what is helping us price higher. ed: i am interested in this idea of being in price discovery mode and the data that informs their thesis. if you are in equities investor, you can look on the third party data, credit card transactions to decide if a consumer is strong or not. what are the data sets you look at to inform your view of what we call our risk assets choice on this show, bitcoin, away from just checking the price? fiona: the data we have been

getting on etf inflows and outflows has been a huge help in trying to decide where the next move is going with bitcoin. that has been one of the main drivers we have been watching. blockchain demand is something else as well. also risk sentiment, we know risk sentiment broadly is upbeat at the moment as far as the nasdaq at all-time highs. we have expectations that the federal reserve are going to be cutting interest rates at some point. i don't think you can completely remove that analysis. the etf data has been a massive driving point at the moment. ed: city index market analyst, great to have you on the program. coming up, autodesk ceo andrew

anagnost joins us. there is a software and hardware side to this story i am keen to get into. that conversation is coming up next. this is "bloomberg technology." ♪

ed: autodesk out with earnings that beat expectations, shares seeing their biggest jump since november 2024 -- 2022. let's bring in their ceo to see with the street seems to like. you had clear areas of strength and enterprise but they believe your visibility of earnings to come, the pipeline of new business and revenue for this year.

why are you so confident in your ability? andrew: we are confident in our visibility because of our diversification. we are diversified across all things they get made in the world. buildings, infrastructure, products, you name it. if you look at our history, we have a record of delivering consistent performance even when there are dark clouds over one part of the industry. that is one of the things that gives us confidence, diversification of our business. caroline: what has been the flavor of this earnings and previous writings has been injecting ai into every offering they can. what is the reality artificial intelligence bringing to manufacturing? andrew: pergolas of all of the hype around ai, it is a

long-term game. the winners are going to be people that deliver real productivity. we have been doing this for a while. we have been in ai for a decade. what you are going to see is in the ongoing pace of capabilities rolling out to our customers. we recently quietly rolled out a drawing automation technology. it automates the creation of manufacturing drawing status which is a huge productivity gain for our customers driven by ai. you see a bunch of those things that look like bottom up activity enhancers. you're also going to see top-down things that create 3d models from requirements outcomes people are trying to achieve. ed: i reported one year ago almost to the day that you were working closely with meta to take the quest probe and give him more -- quest pro and give

him more -- how is that relationship going and have you any vision pro thoughts about how you can benefit? andrew: it is right there behind me on the shelf. i am an active user. with a lot of technology trends, you have got to play the long game. virtual worlds, augmented and extended reality, as the hardware matures and capability matures, these are going to have impacts on how our customers work. we have been making progress with these things. we released workshop to our customers. we are going to be releasing it later this year. keep watching as this hardware evolves. the vision pro and one of the reasons i have been using it is a canonical representation of if

you throw all the technology at you technology you can, can you solve problems with nausea and disorientation? they are able to solve those problems. that means this is going to get more practical and you are going to see it become more ubiquitous. caroline: great getting some time with copy of -- some time with you. that is a greater shelf behind you. andrew anagnost. we are going to about how ai is injecting growth into an old-school school name, dell. shares rapidly rising on the back of ai service. they are exciting investors. we will tell you why. 27% rally. this is bloomberg technology. ♪

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caroline: welcome back to "bloomberg technology." i am caroline hyde. ed: i am ed ludlow. there's a lot going on started with crypto. you have been doing work to keep us honest about an intense five days. i am not clear with the catalyst for this is. price discovery mode but bitcoin above $61,000 per token. we will have a conversation about that. in the market equity sides of things, we are passing so much

economic data, so much for speak. the conclusion seems to be as of this morning that we are solidifying rate cut that's for june. i don't know where we are at. they nasdaq 100 is up. dell up 25%. it is like the market never knew they had this server business and the ai infrastructure bill that would help us out. fisker is down 45%. we will speak to the ceo in 10 minutes. that is a severe move and there is a doubt about this company's ability to continue operating. let's get back to the dell story. i was being flippant but that is the story, they have a server business benefiting from the ai infrastructure spend and build out happening around the world.

woo jin: that is except the right. we see the infrastructure and cloud guys working together. this business did not have any sales in 2024 and that is going from zero to $2 billion in 2025. caroline: that is amazing context. what is amazing is the context of dell because revenues fell yet the stock searches and you must think this makes up for pc weakness. woo jin: can you repeat that? caroline: usa that this fervor is going to make up for the weakness we see in bpc sales -- in the pc sales. woo jin: one of the catchphrases i am thinking of is a triple tailwind. what you are seeing in 2025 is a recovery in pc sales and that is going to contribute about 3% growth.

at the end of the day it is going to be the rebound in server business held by ai. one thing i will say is companies were trialing out ai and what is going to happen is going from trials to production which is helping drive of the sales in fiscal year 25. caroline: we just started to touch the ai opportunities is what we heard from the coo and the statements. woo jin, brilliant to get your take. let's get back to bitcoin. we have been doing bookkeeping on it. bitcoin climbing for the seventh consecutive day. the currency is going to reach new highs. here is what -- had to say. >> we have gone to frothy levels. i would not be surprised to see some correction and consolidation. i am loath to pick a bitcoin

high because i believe this is price discovery. caroline: mike novogratz, let's talk about it. everyone is wondering whether $69,000 is the level we are going to hit. by the people do talk to in the market and dissipating it? >> the current rally took people by surprise. people believe bitcoin will recover but no one saw it coming and rising so much so quickly and this week bitcoin surpassed the sixth of thousand dollars -- the $60,000 level. the next level is $69,000 which would be the record high reached in 2021. generally speaking, we are seeing very successful results that got approved in january and when you're looking to ease the

tokens, you are seeing momentum as well. ed: the banner at the bottom reminds the audience that crypto trades 24/7 and right now bitcoin is softer, .1%, $61,350. talking about price discovery and the new army of investors coming in because of the accessibility of spot bitcoin etf. how closely is the crypto team tracking that data? yueqi: we are tracking the net flows associated with the etf everyday. the number we are seeing this week is since their launch they have attracted over $7.5 billion into etf. we are tracking brittle purchase. we know a lot of the buying is coming not only from bitcoin etf buyers with retail investors,

trading offshore exchanges in asia. mike yesterday warned about the leverage retail people are using on this offshore exchanges. he said, he risk of correction and if there is a correction, he could even see bitcoin dropping to the mid-$50,000 range. ed: correction, mid-$50,000 and that bouncing to a new high. great to have you on the show. coming up, another former rivian executive joins adventure firm. they are building a king of former ev folks. shares of a publicly traded company. caroline: while we double down on manufacturing with ai and tech, let's go to cybersecurity. the scaler is off. this afterword is about growth in the second-quarter buildings, not as strong as expected.

we saw that when palo alto networks and disappointment after a run-up in the shares. they are remaining positive on-demand. at the moment, weakness as they see a material deceleration in buildings. from new york and san francisco, this is "bloomberg technology." ♪ in minutes! -how? -a.i. (impressed) ay i like it! who wants to come see the future?! get your business online in minutes with godaddy airo

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ed: for scriptures plunging to date after the ev maker issued a concern morning and is seeking financial lifelines as liquidity challenges put doubt on its survival. down by the most on record, trading around $.40 per share,

miles away from its ev spac euphoria. let's bring in vcu, henrik fisker. we are grateful for you coming back on the show. you are talking to a single automaker and you are not naming that automaker but the hope is you form a partnership and that includes an investment from that automaker into your business to give you a cash injection. why would the automaker do that at a time when ev demand for growth is slowing and the legacy oem's are pulling back? henrik: good to be on the show. we have shown we have delivered a vehicle which is the first real competitor to the world best's ev, the tesla model by. it has a longer-range, more

features than tesla model wife -- model y. everyone was to kill us because no one likes to disrupt or coming into the market and doing this. i think we have value and we have proven it. we have two vehicles ready to go, both an affordable ev and electric pickup truck. we have a lot to offer. it will be great to get a large oem in. as we pivoted to our dealer model, i feel we are doing really well despite all their warnings and concerns up there. i think we have a lot to offer. ed: the short question is what happens if there is no savior. you explained you have $500 million of finished goods infantry -- inventory and parts inventory. it has not worked selling to the

consumer so you are shifting to a dealer model and yet these cars ready to sell anything that will unlock cash pretty quick. how can you tell me with confidence that is going to work , to start getting cars into consumer hands? henrik: i don't think we're looking for a savior, a strategic partner, that is number one. number two, we have a lot of inventory we have purchased come about $500 million which means we can unlock that cash and we have already signed up 17 dealers locations in the u.s. and europe. the dealers are excited to get our vehicle because finally they can get a hold of an independent ev maker. the dealers in the u.s. have been looking over the fence 10 years, looking at the

best-selling electric vehicle, the tesla model y -- finally they get one, the fisker motion with a range longer than the tesla, better priced, and our do this are ecstatic. they have not been able to have a product like this before. this is good to go with well for us -- go well for us. already we have more than nine. caroline: you say you are an independent alternative, not looking for a savior, a partner. what lengths would you go to to assure you remain a viable business. would you give up a majority control? henrik: i believe you are a viable business in the sense we have a great product, we are sending on dealers, we will generate a lot of cash with the vehicles we are selling because they are paid for already, so is a lot of our inventory.

at this point in time, we are looking at a partner. i don't think we need to discuss are we selling the business, etc.. we are in discussions with a very large car company and that is what we are in and to finish, that discussion, and make a strategic partnership. caroline: that the partner you are in talks with, by the american? do they have to be american? could you look to china? many would say the competitor to tesla is byd but there are limitations to having partnerships with chinese right now. henrik: they are not chinese. there is nobody but us to has any actual viable competitor to tesla model y. no one has a vehicle with a longer-range than tesla except for us and we have a better price. everybody was to kill us but we have seen multiple car companies interested in us because of that.

we don't talk about having a product in two or three years, we are talking about having a now. it is ready. it -- we do need u.s. manufacturing and that is what this oem is offering us. ed: you say they are trying to kill us, one thing you explained was your guidance, 20,000 ev deliveries this year and you are confident if demand improves you condyle of the production and delivery more of them. explained that in context with the vision trip with magna and your business model because that seems to be the confidence you have that you can get yourself out of this situation. henrik: magna can produce 70,000 vehicles for us. we are going out with a conservative 20,000 deliveries this year.

if we see there is more demand, we have a few dealers telling us are you sure you can't deliver us enough cars because we think we can sell more than what you are offering us. we can then dial up the production very easily. that is something that is very unique. we have a contract manufacturer and i am confident we can easily sell the 22,000. we want to start conservatively and if we want to do more, we can dial up production. caroline: heinrich fisker, thank you for joining us today. we appreciate it. eclipse has hired another high-profile rivian alumni to invest in modern physical industries. this time it is rivian's former chief investment officer. he joins us now on the move to venture capital. you have a previous consulting background and indeed

operations, but not investing. what draws you to includes best to eclipse -- draws you to eclipse? jiten: take you for having me here. when i left rivian, the first thing i had to do was reset and do self reflection on my journey. i joined the company in 2015. at that time, just a few of us. there was no technology, new product, no brand, no suppliers. no investors, nobody factoring. -- no manufacturing. to take that company from that stage to eight years later lecturing 3 -- in nine months, delivering to our customers, a first year of production and any ipo along the way, the insight i had was how much i enjoyed

building the business. the experience that i had was so unique. taking the company from zero to one. i want to make sure whatever i do next, it leverages that experience. i wanted to stay in the startup ecosystem and help build companies. i understood the job description is to help the founders. i know the ready zip code. -- the right zip code. ed: rivian is so far away from when i first got to know you and rj, it was just a couple dozen people in a shed. something is missing. a lot of the problems in the ev industry is the technology is not there in what run another area. are you confident you can help eclipse find whatever that is? jiten: absolutely.

is this his head the operated in these long waves of innovation cycles. biz innovation cycles tend to disrupt markets and sectors that create outsized value. in the last wave of the software and internet changed the ways we leverage data, how we connected with each other and created massive software businesses. if we look at the current wave in the stages, the deepest at the broadest impact we are going to have is on the physical industries. is not difficult to imagine what your answer to technology and ai in these industries, he have massive impact on costs, safety, new products. eclipse had this thesis of turning back. ed: we know the eclipse, we had partners on this show, rivian is having a hard time. they cut jobs, a lot of riding on the r2. are there lessons you have

learned, mistakes you have made that you can help a startup? jiten: a few on top of my mind, number one embrace complexity. make complexity your friend. that is the only thing to create long-term. have that intense focus, especially in the early years. answer the question, why does the world need another company in that segment. even as you get money, it is important to detail that focus. most startups don't feel because of starvation, it is because of indigestion. finally, take big risks. you are going to go up against big incumbents and change the ways business operates for a long time. cap that instinct. caroline: big risks that you take in silicon valley, that you look globally for opportunities? where is your focus going to be for this disruption? jiten: our focus is in the u.s.,

north america. we're looking for founders looking to upset these massive industries. and then find applicability globally. we are keen on building the infrastructure, the capabilities, the technologies here in the u.s. ed: jiten behl, eclipse technologies. we have more coming up on the show. this is "bloomberg technology." ♪ i think he's having a midlife crisis i'm not. you got us t-mobile home internet lite. after a week of streaming they knocked us down... ...to dial up speeds. like from the 90s. great times. all i can do say is that my life is pre--

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caroline: the 2024 edition of world mobile congress has come over in barcelona and the take away this year was generated ai. what is interesting is who is doubling down on a use within devices and who isn't. apple for example being pushed for more generative ai features all according to analysts. maybe if they get ahead of the game they can spare a badly needed iphone refresh model, jumpstart growth. this is a great piece from a team come ultimately there are 2 billion devices out there in the world. if they can get us to upgrade, to renew with generative ai, they can give huawei a run for

their money. ed: there is frustration with apple that we don't know what their plan is for generative ai and the team saying look at the chinese handset makers showing us what is possible. if you give is this data point, 43% of iphone handsets riding 12 world -- are iphone 12 or older. they could upgrade if only they knew what tools they could put on their phone. caroline: you saw from the rebels that they are already showing capability. samsung has debuted their first steps. the fact that android is on the equation, still waiting for an eye for do come out with some updates to siri if anything else. ed: the focus has been x code rather than ios. keep track of it. i'm sure it will come. caroline: there has been so much to digest.

that is it for this edition of "bloomberg technology." ed: recap on the podcast, big thank you to everyone who listens to the podcast. get it on apple, spotify, iheart, and all bloomberg platforms. this is "bloomberg technology." ♪ or filing returns. avalarahhh ahhh

sonali: from new york city for our viewers worldwide, i'm sonali basak. bloomberg "real yield" starts right now. ♪