>> i don't want my daughters wasting time thinking about how much they weigh and what they look like. fashion has done a terrible job of reinforcing an unrealistic beauty idea. francine: the entrepreneur driving a beauty empire while trying to redefine fashion.

she has partnered with one of the most famous families in hollywood. chief executive and cofounder of the inclusive fashion brand, good american, which she launched in 2016 with khloe kardashian. she is the founding partner of shape where label skim along with chloe's sister kim. >> all i could do was from my experience. i didn't set out to create a company deeply rooted in the principles of inclusivity and diversity. i set out to make a company right for me. francine: i speak to emma about her rise to the top, how she measures success, and why diversity remains elusive in the world of fashion. thank you for joining us on bloomberg. you represent so much for so many people. all of the businesses that you touched turn into gold. did you ever think that you would be such a success?

emma: no. moche of the businesses that i turned early in the day didn't turn to gold. i love the idea of overnight success, and i feel i would love to continue to perpetuate that myth, but i have just done a lot, and it has been a lot of trial and error along the way. i feel i have probably done every job imaginable, from having, like, a paper route when i was 12 to working in a deli to working in shops to starting things that were less successful, to starting things that had medium success. i feel like that has been a long journey and i am really thankful that now i am 41 years old and i am starting to see this type of success, which is really great. francine: you always wanted to succeed. is that what actually makes your success? emma: you know, i think so. i also think, you know, there is an element of luck in any of these things, right? when you take apart what luck means, i really believe that when opportunity meets preparation. you know, i was always prepared, and when opportunity came along, i was ready to work for it. there is that old adage of a lot

of hard work. i've really, really put the time in, i think. francine: did you always want to be an entrepreneur? emma: no. i never knew what an entrepreneur was. if you would've asked me as a kid -- i mean, i came from east london, and i did not know anyone who had their own business. everyone i knew went to work to pay their bills with usually very little joy in it. so even the idea of doing something that felt purposeful or meaningful or something you enjoyed really was not part of my understanding. i tried really hard to get close to what it is that i love, which is the fashion business. but i didn't ever, ever think about starting my own thing. i think it actually came out of a necessity. i was like, who is going to employ me and pay me what i think i deserve? and i left the company because i was, like, they are just not paying me properly, so i will just have to just pay myself! [laughs] francine: age 24. emma: 24. francine: that was the determination of making something. emma: do you know what it was? i felt like i was adding a lot of value.

and i think so many people through their careers have this feeling, right, i am adding a lot of value, and i'm not being renumerated for what i bring to the table. that feeling became so strong in me. but what do you do? at 24, you know, you don't really have that many options. and so i did what a lot of people do. i went to a company and tried to do my best at the position i was given. and thankfully somebody saw that and decided, ok, maybe we will set this girl up on her own. but i talk to so many young people that i employ or people that are trying to get noticed. i honestly think that is such amazingly good advice. because no one is ever going to look at you to do the next thing unless you are excelling where you are today. and so sometimes just buckling down and doing the absolute best job at wherever you are is the best way to get ahead. francine: but then actually making the step of leaving and setting up on your own, you have to be brave and it is not always easy. emma: no, it wasn't always easy. especially -- i remember the first time i got a little bit of backing, and they said, "you will be in charge of your own pnl." and i thought, fantastic.

i wrote it down and went home and googled it. "what is a pnl?" [laughs] sometimes naivety is the best thing for any entrepreneur. i didn't know what i didn't know, therefore i had to go for it and learn fast and fail fast. and i think i have done -- throughout my career i have not made the best choices every time, but i think part of being a good entrepreneur is knowing when things are not going right and knowing what you don't know. and i have surrounded myself with the right people continuously. francine: so what is the biggest mistake you have learned from? emma: i think the biggest mistake was probably when i had my first agency, itb. i was killing it in london. so there was this idea that the company was completely exploitable. i went to the u.s., opened an office in new york, that office went really well, then i opened in l.a., and i failed miserably. underinvested, did not bring the right people in, thought whatever i was doing would translate, and it didn't. i learned that the hard way by starting something, dragging people there, and having to close it. there is nothing like a bit of

embarrassment to humble the soul. [laughter] i was like, you know, go back. packed everything up. i literally had to pack my own office back up. so that was a fantastic learning. but, again, i never let it break my spirit. i really truly took those learnings. when i started my second company in l.a., i was like, ok, this is where i need to do something different. so i literally packed up my family and went and moved to l.a. i knew if i was going to do something that would be successful, i needed to do it myself, i needed to be in the country, and i needed to give it my absolute all. francine: so is that also giving time to understand the market? it was difficult to do it from not being in the city? emma: yeah, being in-country, being part of the fabric of that culture has been really important, especially for my business, good american, that really is about what is happening at the moment, like where are we in society as women, where is fashion? and i think that has been really, really important to be, like, where it is all happening. francine: that is a bold move,

actually, selling denim to americans. [laughter] emma: it really was. nobody needs more bluejeans, let's be honest. i actually doubted myself when we started. again, coming to a business with mission and purpose at the heart of what we do is what sets us apart. and so i think there are so many brands, but how do consumers make choices these days? right now, we make our choices based on what we believe in, what we feel is important, what we want our children to see. i am a mother of four. so i know only too well that i don't want my daughters wasting time thinking about how much they weigh, what they look like. and i think that fashion has done a terrible job of reinforcing a really unrealistic beauty ideal. and so with good american, the whole premise of the brand was to say, we are going to make clothes for all women, we will let women make their choices, and hopefully we will take some of that pain out of what it means to be left out of the conversation or not represented in fashion. we have done that pretty well, i think. francine: you have this idea of inclusivity, of making women feel good. who do you talk about it with first?

emma: funnily enough, my husband. [laughter] because i think that -- we are both entrepreneurs. it is natural for me to bat any idea backwards and forwards with him. but i have worked for years in the fashion business. so i have been part of the problem. right? it's like i have seen firsthand how some fashion businesses make women feel. and i think there is one thing, being very vocal and being an instagram activist and talking about something, there is a difference in putting your money where your mouth is and really trying to do something about the problem. and that is what i did with that business. it was about, how do i take everything that i have learned and actually do the opposite? and i think that as a young, black female entrepreneur, the only thing i could do was what i know from my experience. the honest truth is i did not set out to create a company that was deeply rooted in the principles of inclusivity and diversity, i set out to make a company that was right for me and my friends, and i knew that, if i have a problem, chances are somebody else does. i think that is where so many businesses are created, when you

are solving a problem that is real for you and therefore real for the consumer. francine: is there a danger that some entrepreneurs look at numbers too much and look for a gap in the market? emma: it is very true. it is very true. and i think that is one way to approach things. and there is a certain sense. for me, i go with my gut. gut instinct tells me a lot. i tend not to go against my gut. i would be lying if i said i did not run some numbers and feel like there is commercial opportunity here. nobody makes 19 sizes of anything without thinking, i reckon i can sell them somewhere along the line. but i definitely think so much more of what i have done throughout my career has been in response to a feeling i have had and then acting on that feeling. francine: were you surprised how many other people felt like you? emma: yeah. [laughter] francine: were you? emma: yeah, honestly, i mean, it is one of those things that, on paper, good american has been such a massive success. if you wind back to day one, people were like, "$1 million on day one!" 9:00, i was a hero. by 11:00, i had no stock left and everyone was like, "you have no idea what you are doing, do

you?" i was like, actually, i do not. in a way, that was my first lesson in what it means to be excellent from the customer experience point of view. because i just started emailing people. i was like, how long do i think people will wait? turns out not that long. certainly not as long as it was going to take me to make stock. [laughter] francine: who were you talking to? sellers or customers? emma: customers -- or both. can you help me get more fabric? will you wait eight weeks for a pair of jeans? somewhere in that, it all kind of worked out. i think, again, what people respond to is brands that have authenticity, and there is a level of honesty that is needed. i went and said, you know what, we had no idea how popular and how much this was going to chime with customers, and if you can just be patient, we are going to get you something. hands up. we know we messed up. and we don't want to disappoint you. and there is a part of that honesty that really chimed with people. they knew that we were not feeding the line. it was clearly not written by pr, because i could not afford pr at that point.

[laughter] francine: were you signing it "emma?" emma: "emma, x," you know, how i speak to my mum or something. [laughter] francine: coming up, emma grede on her attempt to break one of the last taboos in fashion and how success is making her reassess what it means to be an entrepreneur. ♪ ♪ ♪ relax into a caribbean state of mind. visit sandals.com or call 1-800 sandals. starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs

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francine: emma grede has made a personal fortune by founding inclusive and progressive clothing companies. good american was the biggest denim launch in history when it made $1 million in sales on its first day. she tells me about her success and the challenges that remain across the industry. has fashion done -- i mean, it hasn't done enough when it comes to inclusivity and diversity, but has it done something in the last five to 10 years? emma: well, you know, it's interesting because fashion, as quick as it is to change, like in the kind of aesthetic, it is very difficult to change a system, right?

and i think that comes down to who makes decisions. and the people that make decisions in fashion don't typically look like me. they aren't typically women all the time. when we look at who is at the helm on the biggest high street players, it tends to be the same type of people. and so i honestly think there is a lot of work to be done. progress has definitely happened. but you only have to look at the last, like, new york fashion week, which is the biggest and most commercial, to see that there is so much tokenism around what inclusivity really means. and i think that, especially when it comes to size, we are back where we were 20 or 30 years ago, when you would have one single black model that would walk down the catwalk. now we are in the same situation where, you know, i can't remember the stat, but it is less than 3% of models that came down the catwalk were above a size 12. i mean, a size 12 is like less than average. there is so much work to be done there. it's almost like size is almost the last allowed taboo. you know, we are allowed to disclude people because of their size. and it is really crazy. francine: i was reading

something saying people feel a bit rubbish when they look at this stuff because they don't feel represented, and they feel there is something wrong with them. emma: that is the whole reason i started the brand. you know, you go back seven years ago, i was pregnant with my second child, a girl, and i felt that deeply, like how much time and effort you can spend and waste time. to me, it's like if you take out some of that worry and the strife about how much we think about our looks and instead put our energy into saying i need a pay raise, i think i should be doing something else with my life, part of it was, what happens if you shift and change the paradigm of how people see themselves? and, you know, it is a really trite sentence, but representation really matters. when you see a version of yourself in something, there is a level of acceptance. that is what i wanted to do, just level the playing field and say, you know what, we all look different, we all are different, and that is ok. like, that is not what we should be thinking about. we should be thinking about equal pay.

like, there are other things we should be using our time for as women. let's just get an equality going with men. that means throughout the workplace, throughout all the industries. honestly, i feel like the media has such a huge impact on us, not only just fashion media, but the media at large. we need to see better representation everywhere in society. francine: is that why you are doing "dragons' den?" emma: you asked me earlier, did i think about being an entrepreneur? i honestly just never thought about being an entrepreneur. but as i got more successful, i thought a lot about what it means to be an entrepreneur. because they talk about being really small at the top. but is not small at the top. it is minuscule. it is the same people doing the same deals, giving each other money, who all typically went to, like, one of five or six schools. so, to me, because i am on "shark tank" in the u.s., the idea of "dragons' den," that you can be an entrepreneur with seemingly very little background and absolutely no access to funding, and walk on and get a

check to do something that means something to you and can mean something for your family, i am, like, why wouldn't you? it wasn't so long ago i was out fundraising. if i can be a small part of somebody's journey that would not usually get the opportunity, to me, it makes so much sense. it is not just about women, not just about women of color. if you didn't have the means or the education to know anything differently than getting up and going to work every day, that doesn't mean you can't have a successful business. i am walking proof of that, right? i left school when i was 16 years old, and i've done pretty well, so to me, it is about leveling the playing field. i love the idea of that being seen on tv and people having that idea that they can be successful if they just get an opportunity. francine: is entrepreneurship in the u.k. different to the u.s.? in the u.s., there is almost a badge of honor of trying and failing, of trying again, of starting again. [laughter] i don't know if there is a stigma in the u.k., that people are less bold. emma: i don't think they are

less bold. i think there is more, you know, we are different here. we don't celebrate it in the same way. i find that really difficult to say, because i feel like i am so celebrated, especially where i'm from. like, people in london are so nice to me. like, i turned up at this office and two girls come up to me and they are, like, "emma, we love you! high five!" i think things are shifting. what i am all about is celebrating people. listen. it doesn't all work out, but that is also part of life. i think we have to be more honest with ourselves about what it takes and how hard it is. francine: it is hard because you need to build a team around you, you need funding. emma: oh, yeah. francine: there is a little bit of luck. what have you found hardest? emma: if i'm really honest, probably the funding piece. because i think without the right background and circles around you, access is really difficult. for me, i raised my first check from my clients, because i had built a business in fashion media, so i had lots of clients. the only "rich people" i knew were clients of mine that had been paying me retainers.

that was, for me, the easiest way. i was, like, hi, remember me, would you like to give me $3 million? most of them said "no," but a couple said "yes." so i think just knowing where to go in the beginning. they are the barriers most people face. once you are in it, you know, i think it is so much about the journey, like none of this stuff happens like it does on social media. and i think just knowing that you are on a journey. and actually, i think just knowing that actually, i honestly think the best way to start a business is with no money. you don't need to go out and raise tons of finances, you need to figure out, like, what am i creating, where is my audience, and what am i uniquely good at? because when you figure out what you're good at, you know who else you need around you to make something really work. francine: kris jenner was part of your journey. emma: yes, very much so. francine: how did that kind of shape the entrepreneur you are? emma: i think i have been really lucky to be surrounded by so many incredible entrepreneurs, starting with my clients, also my husband, being around people like kris, and also just having access and listening and

watching some brilliant people as i grow up. you know, just even on the tv. really soaking that up. i am one of those people that can learn from anything. i have read books about being an entrepreneur before i even really knew what one was. so i really am someone that, i will take from any situation that you let me. francine: coming up, emma grede tells me why diversity is a superpower and what she's doing to try and improve access and opportunity. ♪

francine: emma grede is perhaps best known as the founding partner of skims, along with kim kardashian. the shapewear brand was valued at $4 billion last year. i continued the conversation by asking emma about the business and her commitment to supporting diversity and black-owned companies. skims is also huge. did you ever think that -- what do you call it, an underwear shaping company? emma: yes, we make underwear, solutionwear. you know, skims has grown so unbelievably. and, you know, that is kim kardashian's company, it was her idea from the outset. and i honestly believe that we never thought that it would just be one thing. we always thought about it as being this huge company that would do lots of things well. but, again, that company was based on just doing one product really, really well. i think that is testament to any great company.

we had so much focus in the beginning. we were like here is what we are going to do, we are going to make superior shapewear in every single size and every single color, and it worked out incredibly well. francine: now, also selling to men. when is the right time to, i guess, either grow or go into a slightly different branch? emma: that is so interesting, because in good american, the first time we ever thought of going into another category was because customers asked us to. and i think it is a smart way to think about your growth and your development in a business. you really have to listen. you cannot take that commentary, like, just the good things. because your customers will tell you what you need to hear, and they will also tell you what you don't want to hear. it is like a big fat mirror. right? [laughter] that is one of the things with social media that is so exceptionally important in business right now, because it is just a reflection of everything you do and a reflection of your consumer base. and if you are listening carefully enough, the data will tell you things. and all you need to do is tune into that. when i think about category

expansion, it really is in regards to or in relation to really what customers are asking me for, and we make those decisions based on that. francine: how do you build a team that can also say, no, emma, this is not a great idea? emma: you know what? that is a great question. i think i spend about 25% of my time hiring. i will take speculative meetings even if i do not have a position that's available, because you are only as good as your team. and to do what i do, you have to surround yourself with experts, like people that are really, really good at what they do. and part of that is being able to stand up to you and you being able to listen. when i think about myself as a leader, i really lead with empathy, because i need people to be able to say to me, that is a bad idea, based on my experience. because my experience is limited. francine: do you think it is different being a leader in 2024 than it was in 2004? emma: 100%, because the workforce has changed immeasurably. right? if we think post-pandemic, also

the generation that we are dealing with right now, it is entirely different. and you have to create a company that can succeed with the workforce that it has at its disposal. so i think there has been enormous amounts of change. francine: younger people -- emma: i think younger people have a different expectation of their life and work and how those two things split together. and, like it or not, covid changed the working environment forever. and you either adapt or you die. i might have a certain opinion about how i want people to come into a space, into a business, but at the end of the day you have to work with where the culture is at. i'm not here to fight the culture. i am, like, ok, it is what it is. how do we work to maximize this? because at the end of the day, we all want the same thing. francine: how do you spot a good entrepreneur, like on "dragons' den?" how do you decide whether you are all in? emma: i am so personality driven. of course, a good idea is a good idea and a white space is a white space. but if i meet someone that, like, just does something to me, i feel it immediately.

i am like, "it's you." francine: like, fire in the belly? how would you describe it? emma: sometimes it is just that mad passion. i could get excited about an origami company if someone comes to me like -- i'm that person. [laughter] i respond to that because that is who i am. i also really respond to the fact that i am like, you know, sometimes seeing a little bit of yourself, knowing someone has not got another opportunity, i'm like, i will have a crack, i will have a go at you. francine: what is emma grede going to do in five years? [laughter] emma: i don't know. lie down? francine: i don't believe that for one second. [laughter] emma: no, it is true, i will find something else. you know, i am really focused on a lot of my nonprofit work these days. i am the chairwoman of an incredible organization called the fifteen percent pledge, which is really focused on creating some semblance of balance in the world of black-owned businesses, figuring out how they can show up in retail with more balance. and i honestly believe that any way that i can use my voice, my influence, and the knowledge

that i built over this time for good is a good use of my energy. francine: why is it so underfunded still? emma: you know, it is so interesting, because it is about access. i think about this all the time, you know, talent is fairly evenly distributed, opportunity isn't. we need to give people more opportunity, regardless of education, background, age, all of those things. it is about leveling the playing field. we come back to that same idea, who gets to be an entrepreneur, who gets to make decisions? i believe the more we can open that up, the better it is for everybody. i have proven in my businesses that diversity actually is a superpower. the more people you have at the table, the more customers you can serve. it is just good business. it is not about being holier than thou or giving somebody an opportunity that does not deserve it. it is actually about being able to service as many customers as you can. and the more minds that you have around the table that reflect your customer base, the better. francine: emma grede, thank you so much for joining us today.

emma: thank you so much. ♪ her uncle's unhappy. i'm sensing an underlying issue. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for.

david: this is my kitchen table, and also my filing system. over much of the past three decades i have been an investor. the highest calling of