david: this is, uh, my kitchen table and also my filing system.

over much of the past three decades, i have been an investor. [applause] the highest calling of mankind, i've often thought, was private equity. [laughter] and then i started interviewing. while i watch your interview, i know, how to do some interviews. [laughter] i've learned from doing my interviews how leaders make it to the top. jeff: i asked him how much he wanted. he said 250. i said, fine. i didn't negotiate with him. i did no due diligence. david: i have something i would like to sell. [laughter] and how they stay there. you don't feel inadequate now because being only the second wealthiest man in the world, is that right? [laughter] sheila johnson is one of the nation's most successful black female entrepreneurs. she helped to start black entertainment television and now she is the owner of a hospitality company, salamander, and is also the owner of three major league sports teams. she is also an accomplished musician. i had a chance to sit down with her recently to talk about her extraordinary career. right now, if i understand it correctly, you have been a large

developer of a company called bet with we will talk about shortly, that was very successful. you are now an author, with this book, a best-selling book, you're also a philanthropist. you made a large gift to many places, and washington, d.c., the mall. we will talk about that in a moment. you are also an accomplished musician, a violinist, and you have started symphonies in this city and in jordan. you now are in the hospitality business. so, what do you do on the seventh day? do you rest? [laughter] sheila: more than anything, i have to tell you i am in the third act of my life and this has been the happiest i've ever been. [applause] and so on the seventh day, i just don't even rest. david: you are also the owner of three major sports teams. sheila: that's right. [cheers and applause] david: and you are the first

woman, as i understand it, to own a stake in three major sports teams, is that right? sheila: yes. and also african-american. [laughter] [applause] david: you were approached by the owner of the washington wizards and the washington caps, about buying the washington mystics, the female national basketball team, and what did you say? sheila: first of all, he did come to me and susan o'malley and said, i want you to be the face of the washington mystics. and i said what you mean, be the face of it? he said, i want you to buy this team. his health was failing. and i have to tell you, and a lot of women can understand this, we never get these opportunities. that was the first thing that

struck me. i was flattered, i was really flattered. i said, abe, what are the financials on this? he handed them to me and said they are not making money. [laughter] but i was still intrigued about team ownership. so then i called my lawyer and i said, sandy, i've been offered a basketball team. and she said, you don't want to buy a basketball team! [laughter] i said, but sandy, if you were offered this team, what would you do? he was quiet and i said you just answered my question. so i said i will be at your office. i said i want you to get ted on the phone, and we talked to him and i asked him, i've just been offered the washington mystics and i know you want to buy the wizards. you already own the caps. i said, look, i could make you an offer.

i want to buy into lincoln holdings, which is what it was then. i said, i would like to be the first woman and the first african-american. i said i don't think there is any other franchise in the country that can boast that opportunity. he said let me go to the other partners and let's see what happens. and that's what happened. i paid the money. david: what happened was you were offered a money-losing women's basketball team and you said i don't want to just be the face of a money-losing basketball team, i want to be in other sports as well, is that right? sheila: well, you know, you've got to be smart about this. david: ok. sheila: there are three teams that can share our losses and profits. david: and so now you are an owner of the washington caps, the washington wizards, and washington mystics. sheila: right. david: any more sports teams? sheila: let's see --

[laughter] david: ok. shiela: no. david: where you are in life is where a lot of people would like to be. did you start out with a wealthy father and mother? sheila: there were not wealthy, they were middle-class. david: middle-class. so you might describe what happened in your family growing up. you begin your book with a relatively sad situation. you might describe what happened in that situation. sheila: it is a case. now, we are going to go all the way back to the 1950's, early 1960's, and this is the time when women had very little leverage and control over their own lives. my father was one of eight african-american neurosurgeons in the country. and that put us in a social status up here. he then decided one night he is just leaving. and he just left us cold. my mother suddenly went from here to here in society, in the eyes of society. her friends left her. she literally had a nervous

breakdown. i was working at jcpenney and i came in and found her on the floor of the kitchen in convulsions. and that was the time at 16 years old when i suddenly had to grow up. i had to take care of that family. david: you were interested in music. sheila: right. david: and you were an accomplished violinist. sheila: what had happened, despite all my father's issues, he was a great pianist. ok. i don't know where it came from, but he could sit down and play anything. there was always music in our household. my mother even played the piano. when we moved to illinois, district 89, said it was mandatory to pick up an instrument. that is when i picked up the violin, and i fell in love with the instrument. that instrument was the foundation of my life, my sanctuary. and i became really good at it. david: so you graduated from

high school and you went to college, where? sheila: university of illinois. in champaign. david: were you playing music on the side? sheila: no, i was in a very middle-class community. i didn't know about sat prep, i didn't know about a lot of things in preparation for college that upper-class white people had. so the problem was, is, they said, you've got to go and take an sat test, and i was like what is an sat test? i went one saturday and took it. i had the lowest sat scores you could imagine. and when i told my music teacher in high school, i said, i don't understand these scores. she said, oh my god, this is really bad. [laughter] and she said, but don't you worry. she says, i want you to go down and audition at the university of illinois in champaign, which i did, and i played in front of paul roland, who was also

instrumental in bringing suzuki into the country. and he says, i am taking you into this university. i got a full scholarship. it was because of my musical skills that i got in there. [applause] david: so you went there and majored in violin? sheila: i majored in music. performance and music education. david: so you were doing well there. you were expected to be a professional musician? sheila: i guess, i played in the chicago civic symphony and the chicago symphony. and then from there, i moved to the east coast and that is where i settled, in this area, and started teaching at sidwell friends and put together one of the most magnificent middle school orchestras. that orchestra grew. i left sidwell in 1972, took that orchestra, and bought a house on brandywine street where that orchestra grew to 110 students. and that orchestra was so good, we played at the old post office pavilion, which was then the trump hotel, now the waldorf. the whole delegation came in and

heard the orchestra and they went, oh, my god. we were invited to amman, jordan, to play at the largest cultural festival in the middle east. and from that point on, we got invited back six or seven times to perform over there. i received the highest honor in education from the king hussein. [applause] david: ok. do you still play the violin? sheila: i still have my violin. i picked up the cello during covid. david: did yo-yo ma give you lessons? sheila: no. [laughter] david: why did you call it salamander? sheila: mythically, it's the only animal that can walk through fire and still come out alive. ♪

david: one of the reasons that you became financially successful was a company that you helped to build called black entertainment television. sheila: that's right. david: when did you start that company? sheila: i can tell you we went on the air january 25, 1979. before that, it was just getting everything in place. i ended up having to sell my violin, my precious violin that my parents mortgaged the house for, to pay the rent on the offices. it was the old american trial

lawyers building, which is now a hotel in georgetown. but it was just these sacrifices that you have to make in life. david: you started this with someone you met when you were in college? sheila: yeah. [laughter] david: so, what was the concept behind black entertainment television? what were you trying to do? why was there a need for bet? sheila: what you have to understand, bet was born during the birth of all cable. you know, that was cnn, bloomberg, you name them. everybody started these cable networks. but what they weren't addressing was the voice of the african-american community.

and so when bob was working with the national cable television association, he had to take a senior citizen up to the hill to try to get government approval and some money to start a senior citizen channel. they turned him down, and he threw the proposal in the trash. i pulled it out, we brought it home, and he said you need to look at this. i am crossing out senior. i write in black and make some tweaks. i said but how are we going to get money for this? we realized, there is john malone in denver, who owned all of the cable stations across the country. took it to him. he said this is the best idea since sliced bread. he immediately wrote a check for $500,000 to get us started. but you know, in the television business, it goes like that. david: it goes like that in every business, but ok. [laughter] sheila: i know. but anyway, he really was our

guardian angel all the way up to the sale of viacom, and we had to pay him back. we paid back every penny he invested into bet. david: bet, you and your then husband ran it for roughly 20 years, was it? sheila: mm hmm. david: and then you decided to sell it to viacom for a nice price at the time. sheila: i didn't know it was going to go for that, i just remember being in times square and i saw the tickertape and i saw that bet was sold for $3 billion, and i was like this is perfect, let me call my lawyer. [laughter] david: you sold it and split up the proceeds. sheila: yes. david: later you decided you would try to spend some time in a place called middleburg. where you had bought a house. middleburg was not the most welcoming for african-americans, was it? sheila: no, not at all. david: where did the idea come from to build a resort hotel there? sheila: well, read the book. but anyway.

[laughter] um it was a town that i fell, in love with. first of all, i had to buy a gun shop that had a confederate flag in the window. i wanted to get rid of that. so i bought the building. [applause] there were some tweaks i had to make to make it livable. [laughter] i built a performing arts center. for the school. because there were just some things that were needed. you know, you've got to build a foundation. a broker came to me and said look, pamela harriman has passed away, as you know, and this is the last of the estate. so there are 340 acres there. they said, would you be interested? i knew the town was financially bankrupt and i said i knew if i could do something as a businesswoman, i needed to put an economic engine in that place and an anchor. so when i went on the land i

knew immediately what i needed to do, and that was to build that. i remember having a vision of what i wanted to do but i also had a party up there to introduce my idea and vision. the next morning i was on my way to dulles airport and there were signs on both sides of the road that said "don't bet middleburg." i called my lawyer, who is sitting here, and i said you know what? we got a problem. that went on for the next 10 years. it was the fight of my life. and i will tell you, with everything that i went through, it was all in the newspapers, everything, but when the final vote went down, i won by one vote. david: one vote was the right to build the hotel you wanted. sheila: that's right. david: ok. so you started building it, then what happened? sheila: then the recession hit. i got a call from the bank and

they said you better mothball this for a while and we will give you the green light when to start it again. but the other thing i want you all to know, as a woman, even with all of my money that i had at the time, i could not get a bank loan to build -- i had to use my own money to build that resort. because i had -- i don't know. i was a woman. and i just could not get the bank loan. david: so ultimately though, you went ahead, the recession went away and you decided to build it with your own money. sheila: yeah. then the bank called and said you can proceed now. but i still had to use my own money to finish it off. david: so you build it, how many rooms was it initially? sheila: we started with 68 and it grew and grew. now it is 168 and that's where the town put the plug on me

that's what i do. however, i was able to get out and build 49 homes, which are going up now, and i was able to also broker a deal with the town hall. i could lease a piece of the property to the town and they have a town hall and i have the police department on my property. [laughter] [applause] david: so now, after you decide to build this hotel in middleburg. why do you call it "salamander?" sheila: this is a great story. when i moved to that area and i decided to buy the farm where i am living now, there was a guy by the name of bill who owned the property -- i kind of knew his name because his brother was teaching at princeton or something like that. but he had never really lived at the farm. and he had a name for the farm called cotswold or something

like that, which i didn't want. i said, who had the farm before? they said it was bruce sunland. i contacted bruce sunland and asked him, what was the name of this farm before? and he said it was salamander. i said, where did that name come from? bruce was a fighter pilot that was shot down over nazi occupied belgium. his entire unit was captured. he was able to get out, cross europe, and he ended up in allied territory in france. he fought briefly for the french resistance. the u.s. then came to him and said, look, we've got to go in and rescue the rest of your unit out of the pow camp. this is a true story. the story of hogan's heroes. that is bruce sunland. that is where the tv show came from. and i said, what does salamander mean? mythically, it is the only animal that can walk through fire and still come out alive, which i loved.

but, you know, realistically, if you cut off its limbs, they regenerate. and it just hit, at that time, a nerve with me. i said i need that brand, i'm going to brand the salamander. david: so the original idea was to build a luxury resort there. but why did you decide to build more hotels or buy other ones? was that the original idea? to build one or more? sheila: no, it is just that after the success of building the resort in middleburg, and it just took off, they said, if you build it, they will come. after i hired the most exceptional team i could have put together, and they are still with me, we were so successful with the resort out there, we decided to expand. ♪

♪ david: now that you are one of the, i would say, wealthiest african-american women in the united states, i think it is fair to say, you don't suffer any gender or racial discrimination, is that right? what did your daughter say then? >> she was saying she wanted to jump over the logs.

so we went back to the indoor arena and she was showing me how to do it, and i don't know whether the horse got stung by a bee or what happen, but i got bucked off. and she kept yelling "let go of the reins," which i didn't do, and the horse stepped on the side of my body and i heard a crunch. all of the ribs in the front and back were broken. i was in the hospital for a couple of weeks. it missed my heart by about an inch. david: so have you been back on the horse since then? sheila: never. [laughter] i will never do it. i just laid there on the ground and the horse kept nudging me, and i just said, god, if you let me live, i will never get on a horse again. david: you have been helping horses in one sense. there is a stable on the national mall that is the stable that the park rangers use for -- sheila: the u.s. park police use. david: the u.s. park police use

for the horses up and down the mall. who came to you and said guess what, we need new stables and you should put up the money? sheila: no, as you know, i joined the board of the trust for the national mall and they were giving me the lowdown on you and everything you have put into our wonderful front yard. [laughter] and all of a sudden i heard horses in the background and i said, what is over there was mark and they said, that is the u.s. park police horses are. and i said where are they? he said you really do not look at that. and i know catherine townsend is here and she will cut my throat when i say this, but i did go over there and i said this is what i want to do. we had the park police in trailers, or whatever you call them. it was just terrible. the horses were really in unsanitary conditions, as far as i was concerned, from what i am used to. catherine, don't get mad at me. but anyway, i just said this

will be my project and this is what i want to do. now if you go onto the mall, i don't know how many hundreds of feet down from the lincoln monument, you see the most incredible stables for these horses, and they are out there. [applause] one of my horses, chief, is right there. [applause] so it was my job to raise, i guess it was $30 million to get that thing up. and we did it. it is amazing. david: let me ask you, what is next for sheila johnson? are you going to run for office? are you going to become a cabinet officer? an ambassador? anything? sheila: [sighs] i don't know, i'm just going to continue to focus on my company and try to help encourage so many women, especially young women, to really find themselves. i want to read something to you, to the audience. 16 and a half years ago, -- it

is really now 17 -- had passed since my divorce from bob. exactly half the time we had been together, i was finally free. if i could go back in time and talk to my younger self, i would tell her this, trust your instincts, get to know who you are before you give yourself to someone else. believe that you can find happiness and that you deserve it. you're going to be ok. ♪ ♪ ahhh

>> south africa is the world's most unequal society. >> around the settlement do