>> from the heart of where innovation, money, and power collide in silicon valley and beyond, this is bloomberg technology, with caroline hyde and ken ludlow. caroline: live from new york and san francisco, this is bloomberg technology. coming up, tech winners and losers. the latest earnings and investor moves. will they sell out before the selloff? ed: in the tesla analyst who almost crashed using fst is back with another review of the tech. caroline: defense in focus.

a massive fund raise for and a real. we speak with the chair and vc becker about the whopping $14 million valuation. but first, let's check in on these markets. we are having a strong day. good news is good news again. jobless claims showing a strong u.s. economy. we might not factor in the rate cuts coming up hard and fast, that there still could be room to cut for the federal reserve. we are up 8% on the nasdaq 100. the bond market is pricing in what seems to be a more resilient economy. a 12 basis point move on the bond market. there is still movement into the tech stocks. everybody watching the micro. ed: a lot to cram in. earnings is part of the story. cisco is higher. job cuts confirmed. but a strong outlook for sales and a pivot to the cloud, cybersecurity, and of course artificial intelligence. later in the show, we will get deeper analysis in-house with bloomberg intelligence.

go over to asia. really interesting. china and southeast asia, the earnings story -- alibaba's u.s. listed shares are higher. they have been lower because of the weaker sales outlook we were looking at. jd.com flying higher, the e-commerce and digital story in china stronger with them. ride-hailing in the southeast asia market seems to be a lot of competition impacting jd. we will go over that. there is all of the interest in who is buying or not buying, not holding, selling, or reducing their stake in tech globally. caroline: that is such an interesting part of the story, and we are going to delve into it. you have got george soros and stanley drucker, both investor firms -- they managed to trim holdings in the magnificent seven before the major downturn in tech names in july. pretty impressive. let's bring in helen palmer, who is joining us on the daily at

the moment. it does feel like they managed to call this a little bit. tell us about the names. >> we care about these titans of the industry, millionaire investors. they sold some of their stake. george soros sold some of his stake in alphabet and amazon, so some prescient moves. stanley druckenmiller sold off his exposure to nvidia. also quite interesting. a former hedge fund manager cut some of his stake in amazon and microsoft and meta. we do see some trimming on those tech positions ahead of what was a pretty significant selloff. ed: we kind of discussed this tiny four hours ago. they come thick and fast, the 13f filings. you see individual fund names, the stock pickers in particular. they go one way or the other. in aggregate, was it a good second quarter for technology or a bad second quarter for technology in terms of going in and out west and mark -- going

in and out? hema: we did see investors move ahead of the volatility. selling of microsoft. some trimming of meta, of nvidia. apple is a popular start to buy. the most buying we have seen in about three months. caroline: the oracle of omaha. i'm interested in the cuts we talk about so much. have they been making back any of the losses we have been accustomed to? hema: we did see a downturn during the volatility. not terrible, but not great. every month does matter when it comes to these funds that are going to dig themselves out of a hole. in terms of their positioning, some interesting moves. unitedhealth seems to be a popular by for these funds. tiger global, it is their seventh largest holding. lone pine bought some as well.

this does seem to be a little bit popular. d1 started a brand-new position in next po, a logistics company. it is the fifth-largest holding. we see interesting moves in the markets with companies that are not necessarily traditional tech. ed: alibaba reported earnings, posting a disappointing 4% rise in revenue even after aggressive promotions to try to drive spending. joining us for more on the china tech earnings story is isabel lee. the adr is higher. it is interesting when you go from the asian session into the u.s. session. overall, it is sales growth weakness we are worried about. isabel: it is slightly higher. investors have digested the news overnight but are still not that thrilled. it was anemic. we had profit plunging around 27%. alibaba has struggled to drive growth. the ceo who was installed last year making it his priority to

focus on between business of cloud and commerce. he has also been making bets on ai in the long run, but investors have worried that alibaba's intense drive to beat its competitors will compress margins in the three-way rivalry has been intensifying for a while. a quick note -- alibaba's biggest rival, tencent, reported better than expect a earnings, but warning of weakening consumption. it is really alibaba that is in the back seat for now. but it is just one quarter. the economy in china still not looking that fantastic. caroline: it is interesting. we understand that michael burry has been keeping up his alibaba stake. people do believe in a turnaround for this business. is it all to do with ultimately a week revenue stream, a weak consumer? they didn't seem to put it away when it was dmv focused and

merger focused. isabel: they also have david tepper slashing his alibaba stake for a little bit, but it is still the biggest holding in his company. i think that is really the main question. will you invest in china now because it is cheap? we have others saying they will not invest because it is cheap. if you zoom out, the latest data from china still showing domestic demand faltering. we have a property crisis that is still prolonged and slumping. they are still seeing a bright spot. no economy goes up in a straight line. they see this as a blip in china's economy. they believe the second largest economy in the world will be a bright horizon. caroline: we are saying david tepper trimming by 7% and michael burry upping some different views on individual names. i'm interested as to -- we were talking of alibaba more of the rejuvenation, the dissecting of this business.

what does the future look like? how are they managing to stabilize? how are they thinking about ipo's? isabel: it is still unclear but you see alibaba making a big push into the ai space. the bad news is its rivals are doing the same. the ai halos, so to speak. it has fizzled a bit with investors questioning when they will see the payoff of their millions of investments into ai. in china, the same is playing out. there are big plays into the ai industry. it will always be a three-way rivalry for those. ed: isabel lee on the china tech beat. let's look at whether alibaba could recapture market share. jacob cook, ceo of a firm that drives market expansion for

global brands in china, it also japan, south korea. i want to start talking about the e-commerce landscape. as isabel outlined clearly, the same e-commerce names are increasingly thinking about cloud and ai. >> it has gone from a two horse race between jd and alibaba into a four horse race with china' has tiktok and pdd. we kind of digest through the reports. they are maybe a little disappointing on the overall revenue. they show good growth. up until now, a lot of the growth from competitors is into a lot of that. it stabilizes there. it also stabilized jd. jd had a much shorter cycle in terms of changing that they wanted to do, from the subsidies they were giving away to consumer spend years ago, to really operational efficiencies

and getting closer and tighter supply chains. that changed. i think we saw a 92% increase in profit with them, so that was great. alibaba is not through with that transition yet. eddie is not focused on bottom-line profits until there is restructuring done. i think it tells us they are happy where they are in the transition. caroline: how destabilizing for the global brands you represent is it when a company such as alibaba is doing a restructuring? how willing are they to stay with the growth in china? david: i think extremely well. i think alibaba has always been a good partner. the people you end up engaging with as a brand are very professional and are usually the best in the individual categories. we are going to get a bunch more merchant programs to advertise.

we are excited about that level of innovation. acquisition cost is fairly stable and relatively attractive for brands to do that. it has been more destabilizing to have to rush into these trends which have completely different approaches to e-commerce. ed: at the moment, jd is the outlier. shares are up significantly. is it the outlier? is there a difference in its place in the market and the strategy? jacob: it is a similar business. it does not have the massive business units alibaba does. they announced what they were going to do in restructuring. it is focused on operational efficiencies. they went through layoffs a couple of years ago. what we look at is not very successful. difference between the two of

them is what is going on with alibaba. i see them being about halfway through that right now. caroline: what is your advice for a company trying to access e-commerce growth in china right now? jacob: my advice is to go for it. i know there is a lot to real estate. but if you take away luxury goods, aligning with the younger consumer -- we saw a great six-18. we are optimistic about 11-11. caroline: jacob cooke, we really appreciate the expertise. coming up, a closer look at how google search might have the ai advantage. ♪

ed: taking a look at google following the federal court ruling last week that google is an illegal monopoly. we look at the search giant's influence with ai. publishers face a choice between offering content to ai models that can make their sites obsolete or disappear from google search, which is a top source of traffic. what we are really talking about here is web crawler. in other words, a mechanism to go through a website's data and position it in search, and that gives google an advantage, because some of the data ends up

in the training of large language models, essentially. >> google has been at this for decades now. it crawls the web, millions of different sites, to be able to show a detailed index to users. but that now gives it an edge over search startups that are trying to get into the game, because they want to crawl, but many websites block pretty much everyone from crawling except for google and microsoft being. so startups are it a real disadvantage. -- are at a real disadvantage. caroline: to choose whether to crow, there is the macro perspective that regulators are worried about this advantage that google seems to have in the world of ai. they already think it is a monopoly in search. this might just double down on it? julia: absolutely. this underscores that this is one of many advantages that google continues to have in the ai race. publishers face a difficult choice and they are very worried

about the ai overviews that google displays at the top of search, and what that could mean for their traffic. but they worry that if they block the google bought from crawling, that will infest their visibility in google search, which would be a death blow. that is a consideration they do not face with search startups like perplexity, where it is easier to just block the crawler. caroline: julia love, thank you. let's take a look at all of this in the context of the reports that bloomberg has been bringing you about the department of justice considering breaking up google. it would be a rare antitrust move. let's bring in a senior fellow at the technology policy institute. sarah, we are hearing about ultimately the ears that ai -- the dominance google has in ai, it once again doubles down on its monopolistic traits we have already been seeing. do you agree with that? do you think antitrust could help? >> right now, we are 10 days out

after the judge released a ruling on august 5, after a 10 week venture trial on u.s. versus google. the talk about remedies of possibly breaking up google, that is all going to start september 4, with the remedies hearing. we can talk about what those remedies are being floated as, but we won't know what the justice department recommends until then. ed: we won't know, but one of the ideas that we have reported is on the table, citing sources, is the development of data. if you read the story, the original report, that is what is being discussed. maybe you divest into its own entity. do you see a way that would work in practice, sara? sarah: what is interesting is android was discussed at the google pixel event as being part of implement thing gemini in web

search. the android question is very interesting because it is a global market for android, and the u.s. market is only a fraction of who uses android. it is not clear at all that android is core to the general search question in the monopoly trial. so we can discuss whether that could help with remedies, but really what i think is more likely is that limits on exclusive contracts and defaults would survive, or would be more reasonable within scope. but definitely people are talking about the operating system market, the browser market, how ai fits into everything. one thing to note is that like the microsoft case, like the at&t case, it is going to take several years for this to go

through appeal and remedy and settlements. so what is ai powered search going to look like in three years, four years? i think that is an important question. ed: sarah is a senior fellow at the technology policy institute. coming up, we will discuss elon musk' is platform x and whether it can recover from its advertiser loss. we get the bloomberg opinion take. caroline: let's look at adyey shares soaring as the payments company is winning back investor trust. last year, revenues slumped. shares plummeted. now, revenue is back on, more than eight when he percent rally. -- 20% rally. ♪

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network? that is the hypothesis of dave lee, saying in his latest piece that with the platform losing advertisers, and getting increasing scrutiny from regulators, it reeks of failing social network syndrome. dave lee is here with more. you use or reorient a phrase from a pretty famous restaurant critic, and repurpose it. why does it reek of a failing social platform? for many, with the trump discussion, it is the most active it has been for a while. dave: this was a phrase used to describe restaurants going under. they don't go under overnight or even for a few months, but there is something in the air when there is a place that is not quite right. i said that applies to x, formerly known as twitter, for many reasons. i think what has happened on that network since elon musk took it over -- quite clearly it

has become a single issue network for elon musk's politics. there is the issue of the culture wars. and what is happening less on next is some of the communities that made many normal people want to use it in the first place -- talking about football, music, books, whatever -- those communities are finding it harder to interact with each other, and certainly no new people seem to be joining those discussions in a way they might have done previously. caroline: if you go to your own text page, you have not been posting since 2023, but you are almost forced to reengage with the platform for the story, and elon musk reengaged with you. dave: i had not posted there for more than a year based on my feelings of what my feed was showing me in terms of the type of content i was getting. without following certain users. this is something elon musk said to me today or mentioned me about today. i checked my screen time and it

is at the average of 19 minutes a day this week, and that was only because i downloaded the app to listen to his interview with donald trump. without that, which went on for a couple of hours, i think, my time would be very minute. i checked in on it to see what is happening. i am a journalist. of course i need to do that. in terms of engaging with the network, i think it's usefulness has gone now, and i think it will continue in some form for a while, but in terms of this useful utility for people, i think that your is behind us. ed: dave, as you know, i spend a lot of time on the platform. i share a lot of my reporting. i don't see a lot of data supporting that video does well. when i show videos of the content, it is interesting one of the communities that does well there is tesla. your issue in the opinion piece is about advertisement flight and money. does muska even care about the

advertisers? is it even a priority for him to have revenue growth as a basic question? dave: we have seen what elon musk has said directly to advertisers in words we cannot repeat on air, only to a couple months later be suing some advertising groups to punish them for boycotting the platform. i think elon musk is quite sincere when he says he does not care if advertisers don't want to advertise on his platform. even he thinks it is now this arena for free speech. the problem is he will need to care, right? this is a website that needs money to survive. as rich as musk is, it still needs to be a functioning business, and i think that is going to be twitter's problem as we go past the election. now, i think a lot of the attention is to do with the presidential election. once the votes are counted, people may move. ed: i have a lot of questions about monetizing grok ai. dave lee, thank you very much.

coming up, we talk more about tesla's self-driving teacher -- feature. ♪

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caroline: welcome back to very technology. ed: a quick check in on the markets. the nasdaq 100 is up for a six straight session and there was a seventh day run of gains and we talked about how over many weeks the nasdaq 100 was under pressure and we are bracing for nvidia earnings on the 28th of this month. but now the 13f look back of the economic data is a factor. the single names are interesting, it is backward looking. notable funds, the cutting of posure to certain may be names

in the second quarter, many their positions which are notably higher having gone past the high of july 18. tesla is also up 6% in some funds increase in some funds decrease. no new news catalyst but we have a really interesting conversation and self-driving in a few minutes. caroline: let us check in on cisco, rising after a bullish revenue forecast. even though it announced plans to cut thousands as part of a strategy shift. let us get to the bloomberg intelligence analyst. it is that imagery digestion in the rearview mirror but job cuts, they are looking forward. >> thank you. in terms of the job cuts, i thought the first round so that they announced was not enough and essentially they are trimming the fat on the legacy

business to drive up the clap -- the cash flow of the networking business. one of the things i said is that they are re-diverting the cost savings to the earth your parts of the business which is the observability less the security. ed: good morning. what is the cisco story? when ian king was on the show reporting it was about a company in transition. i thought many quarters ago it was already a company in transition focused on software? woo jin: en is 100 -- ian is 100% right. what i view physical 2025 as as a transition year because of the backlog headwinds. there are residual ones that cisco is going through. what they are trying to monetize is the data inside the network. and that is one of the reasons or the main reason why they made this acquisition. it will take several quarters to

really integrate into the system and then with the hopes of possibly monetizing the data for faster growth and better margins. ed: is there an ai sorry -- story for cisco, and if you look at the trading action it was the idea that there is not much of one as we thought. woo jin: from a core networking standpoint there is a small ai story. there is an additional $1 billion of orders which brings it to $2 billion of total orders that they have seen today. from a revenue standpoint it is not that small on a 55 to $56 million base. if we think that the data will be fueling these large language models, you know cisco is potentially at the nexus because the data has to run through. caroline: all things cisco, we

thank you. let us go back to tesla. you are reminding us a moment ago because last month spoke with an analyst who said that he nearly crashed while using an older version of full self-driving and he claims that fst was not available -- not ready for the prime time. there were a lot of questions about why he did not try the latest update. so why didn't he felt that experience to? he took the test again this time using 12.5. and it was an updated iteration and that it was a fast fail. will stein is here with us. why was it a fast fail? will: very early fsd took the car through a red light making a left turn from the second to left and not turning lane. it is illegal, it did not feel terribly unsafe but clearly

illegal if i were driving the car with an officer. i am pretty confident i would have been stopped. from my perspective even though i did not get in a crash and it was not even safe for me for really intervene. it was safer for me to make the car make the turn. this was clearly illegal. and so this was a fast fail. ed: let us do this again. the basics of the test, where were you, his vehicle were you using, what was the duration and why did you not filament info? will: let me address the last one first. i am not a vlogger, or a social media personality, i am in equity research analyst writing research for institutional investor clients. filming or video is not a typical media that i operate in. regarding the test was similar to the two prior ones that i did. and that included using a test

vehicle from tesla with the latest software that went to vail -- that was available at the time in suburban new york and it was about a 10 mile drive that i asked the car to take me on just to a local spot close to where i live and back. that was the test. in each case they were different characterizations of how the car felt and the level of safety. in each case there were failures making it really not appropriate to think about. driving in the way that a robotaxi blood. ed: a lot of people ask why are you getting this guy on the show. you answered that, a research analyst looking at tesla. but what interested me is that you are a semiconductor and ai analyst. elon musk says on the earnings calls with some regularity to understand our future as an ai

company, use it for yourself. you did. my question is, the thesis from the job from the task to a robotaxi future, why don't you see it? will: it is not obvious today. the company is generating revenue and it is one of the three major ai projects going on. we believe that there is significant value embedded in the projects, so we think it is important to understand whether this works or not. my assertion is that it does not work today but it is not meaning that they cannot get there eventually. it is just not ready today. caroline: there is the crux of the issue. how important is it that we see robotaxi in october? will: i think the idea that fsd needs to work is critical. only about one third of the value is wrapped up in the automotive production and energy capture and storage businesses.

about two thirds of the value are wrapped up in ai projects so you have to show something. he has already pushed out the date from august to october. but if we have the supposition that robotaxi depends on fsd, that is not ready. so let us see. ed: i am an fsd user and i am on 12.5.1.3, and it is not perfect. today i competed at the dogleg for the first time, you keep testing with this regularity? will: i will test when it is a major upgrade or if there is a request by the company. elon musk told me to is the way i like to say it. after q1 he challenged investors to try and i did and i wrote about it. q2, same thing. the criticisms were around 12.

five is an amazing upgrade and you need to see the improvements. i did that and i would say improved in some ways but still a critical failure. ed: william stein, truest managing director of managing research. next temasek spend billions of dollars in the second quarter buying shares in u.s. tech giants just before the sector droped in july. they increase their holdings in 11 big firms by $3.3 billion in the month through the end of june. the majority of the increases went into six of those names, microsoft, nvidia, meta, amazon and alphabet. many of those companies saw the stock slide over fears of a recession and ai gains. coming up we are joined by trey stevens, the cofounder of and

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ed: this is bloomberg technology and you are looking at a live shot of the principal room. check out the bloomberg technology podcast on the terminal online, apple, and i heart. this is bloomberg. time for talking tech, and apple pushes ahead with a tabletop robot. the company is moving forward with the development of a tabletop home device that is said to -- to combine an ipod device with a robotic limb. they have several hundred people working on it as it searches for new sources of revenue. nvidia scrapped -- scraped

millions of youtube videos without consent from creators to train and develop its ai models according to a new federal lawsuit filed in california. they allegedly instructed employees use tools to download videos and evade detection in an effort to train cosmos ai video projects. clarna is close to choosing to have guard -- goldman sachs leave its ipo. the company is seeking evaluation of $20 million. deliberations are going and details can change. caroline: talking of companies currently private and doing some bid grounds, anduril has raised 100 -- billions of dollars and plans to spend billions on a facility to manufacture rockets, vehicles and autonomous systems. coming up >> for -- the cofounder.

that puts a big chunk of change for $14 billion market capitalization. the raising of funds for manufacturing, where will that be and why in the u.s.? trae: the investment makes it the largest position that founders fund has had in the 20 years history. as the cofounder of the company it is exciting to be on both sides. the arsenal one project is a significant undertaking. it is predicated by the recognition that our weapons inventory literally is missing a zero on the end. we might be ok on day zero and stretched on day 30 but no way we have the amount of equipment that we need to go into active conflict. what arsenal is about is putting our own skin in the game rather than asking for the taxpayer to own up to the risk. and giving a head start and leap into production for the systems at quantity so that we are not

asking the taxpayer to do that. caroline: the taxpayer does it for right -- for legacy rivals but why should they not do it for you? trae: that is what slows in -- innovation because this cost less and let us wait to the government pays us and we will get some small margin on top of that. this is the -- this is not the way innovation works. the requirement is to put your own capital into research and development and then you have to take the position of betting on yourself with the thing that you are building and development -- developing is the thing that the customers buying at the end of the day. ed: i saw your post on social media about the location. i think you are being facetious but where will it be, not san francisco but in socal? trae: i was amazed at the amount of people who thought i was

being serious about that we were deliberating putting it in san francisco. we are not putting arsenal one in san francisco. there are a lot of states in play. and it comes down to availability, greenfield versus brownfield and what we were able to get on the states to accelerate as possible. not sure yet and i cannot comment further than that. hopefully we will have more information in the coming months. ed: so many people credit it as the leading defense tech startup . you talked about do not put the burden on the taxpayer to fund the growth of operations. but i am trying to build a timeline when all of the big money from government does go to anduril, and there is an openness to engage with silicon valley? trae: the culture is shifting. we have seen tremendous move since face acts and palantir

were founded earlier on in the 21st century. anduril is stepping into the wave and standing on the shoulders of giants who created that market space. i think the defense tech industry has seen a major boom that you guys have talked about a bit on air on bloomberg. the question is really about how much the government will be able to lean into picking winners, not in an unfair sense but identifying the company is that will scale to the size of the problem. and that is the focus we have had some beginning, not on research and development but scaling into production requirements. that is shifting as we move into high cost and low volume legacy systems into some of these higher volume tradable assets in the economy space. caroline: how does the cultural change depend on who is in the

white house? when you look at who first put money into it, jd vance was one of them. he could be in the white house and would that make a big change? trae: that is a rear -- a weird conversation because there is the belief that defense is this weirdly republican thing the reality for anyone who works in d.c., it is false. defense is bipartisan as all of the other bills are dredging through congress, the national defense authorization act passes nearly every single year. i do not we are affected at all by politics whether it is a harris or potential second trump administration. we are in a good place in either case. it is about leaning into the things that the pentagon needs and not worrying about politics. ed: there are some state-level politics. elon pulling spacex. anduril socal california story,

i keep going back to it but what do you make of that? trae: the location is largely predicated on access to talent and that we have the ability to recruit and retain the best software engineers that are going to be able -- that will be critical to us building the products. do i think that it would be just as easy to do that in places that do not have a critical mass of engineering talent, not really. we have no plan to leave southern california at any point in the future right now. ed: the executive chairman and cofounder of andurial and sounding funders. coming up the president of cohesively joins us on the latest cybersecurity port -- report, what are you looking at? >> lenovo trading on the high side. why? better than expected earning profit. it is about service and pc growth. this is bloomberg technology. ♪ ♪ i can't believe you corporate types are still at it.

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how am i going to find a doctor when i'm hallucinating? what about zocdoc? so many options. yeah, and dr. xichun even takes your sketchy insurance. xi-chun, xi-chun, xi-chun! you've got more options than you know. book now. ed: almost half of companies need more than six days to recover data and restore business which is one of the takeaways from the latest word on cyber resilience. we have the ceo and president joining us now and the reason that this service is on the

rise, bad actors are more active. other conclusions? sanjay: thank you for having me. we did a survey of 3000 security people and there were three things that stood out, one things that i expected which is two thirds of the people surveyed said that they had a ransomware attack but two things, 1% of them believe they could be resilient in a day and 50% said it would take them a week. the second aspect was almost 90% of them said the organization would pay the ransom and 75% believe that the ransom would be over a million which is unacceptable. there is a trait -- treasure trove of data that we are serving but i found those results to be alarming. caroline: therefore they do what? i imagine they use cohesively. what point what do you get --

how do you get somebody to tackle this in a matter of days instead of weeks? sanjay: one of the most important thing on the microsoft fallout, whether the artist formerly known as twitter and the microsoft attack that we have to focus on resilience. it is like the health care industry. when we all face covid it did not matter whether you are going to get covid or not the question was how quickly could you recover. you almost have to plan for the fact it is not just if but when you get attacked and you will probably get ransomware attack and how quickly can you recover. resilience. it should not take us days to recover from that crowdstrike fallout and that should be ours. ed: that environment must be good for your business. how is cohesity doing if the need for defenses is on the up? sanjay: since you asked me i will break it out on your program. we had a record year. we closed at 549 million dollars

in revenue, growing at 26%. and we turned free cash which is the first time for any of our company. profitable growth and we announced our attent to acquire -- intent to acquire veritas which would make us the biggest -- the biggest in our space. we are focused on serving our customers. caroline: are you going to go public anytime soon? sanjay: we have to close this transaction but the anticipation that in -- once we digest this it would be going public. caroline: thank you for joining us. fascinating data about his business and the world of cybersecurity. that does it for this edition of bloomberg technology. ed: check out the podcast on the terminal, apple, spotify and iheart. that does it, this is bloomberg technology. ♪

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>> welcome to bloomberg markets. evidence of a resilient u.s. economy have made traders lower their rate cuts. how is that showing up? risk on. you have big cap and tech stocks and small caps all advancing thanks to the bigger than expected gain. you could see the nasdaq leading up to percent but small caps doing better by 2.5%. we have the retail sales report lifting oil for the first time in three days. nymex crude gaining almost 2%.