the retail federation retracting a widely cited statistic from its report on organized retail theft. yup. i don't know which one. i don't know if it is worse or better. we'll find out. we'll find out when you find out. details straight ahead. it's thursday. this is december 7th, the day that will live in infamy. "squawk box" begins right now. good morning. welcome to "squawk box" here on cnbc. we are live from the nasdaq market site in times square. i'm becky quick along with joe kernen and andrew ross sorkin. between the three of us, we decided today is thursday. >> it took all three of us.

>> it did. >> and the reason i mentioned september 7th. a time when the former president thought it was september 7th, pearl harbor day. >> that would be today. >> today is the one. i'm not going to tell you how many years it's been. that may take us to 9:00. 1941? >> 1941. >> 1942. that would be about 80. 80 years. >> or two. 82. let's look at the u.s. equities. the dow is under pressure again. down 61 points. this is three days in a row the dow and s&p close down after yesterday's close. right now, s&p is indicated up by .10%. nasdaq is indicated up by 40 points. the dow, i didn't see it. come back. for the week, the dow is down .50%.

the s&p 500 and nasdaq are each down 1%. if you have been watching treasury yields as we have, it looks like the ten-year yield is 4.13%. the two-year yield is at 4.6%. it was below that yesterday. crude oil prices, as joe mentioned, have come back from low levels. $70.05 is wti. that is after the gain of 1%. brent crude is up to $75. the price of bitcoin exploded lately. lots to talk about with what was said on capitol hill yesterday. bitcoin at 43$43,212. talking about capitol hill. i should say capitol hill meets bitcoin. jpmorgan chase's ceo jamie dimon lashing out yesterday during the hearing on capitol hill suggesting bitcoin be banned. >> deeply opposed to crypto and

bitcoin, et cetera. the true use case is criminals and drug traffickers and tax avoidance. if i was the government, i would close it down. >> in the past, dimon called bitcoin a hyped up fraud and likened it to a pet rock. other ceos testified and agreed the same companies should get the same regulations. we will talk to senator warren. she will join us. don't miss that interview in the 8:30 a.m. half hour of the broadcast. three hours from now. >> i don't know. >> two and a half hours from now. >> genie is out of the bottle. the horse is out of the barn. humpty dumpty -- that is obviously not a realistic. >> not as the s.e.c. was signing

off. >> not a realistic thing to talk about. i have a lot of pushback on the notion. money lalaundering. we didn't come up with that when bitcoin was initialed. 99% of money laundering has been done without bitcoin. you don't want to get rid of the dollar. it is used for money laundering. maybe it is easier to do. you know, i don't think you decide you hate something because -- we had conversations about all kinds of things. it is not about the thing itself. it is the whacko that's using it. a car can be a terrible thing if you decide to drive into a parade with a bunch of people. >> this is the thing. when you have dangerous things, you have to decide how much

utility they have to balance it. i would argue cars are valuable. they create great productivity and fabulous things. there is a danger about them. >> you know the true bitcoin zealots have much more than a car. >> cathie wood had a rough year over the last year and she defended her positions. she was saying bitcoin, she thinks her thesis has been proven, because it is not a risk-on asset with the banks that got in trouble and bitcoin was up 50% because you didn't have to worry about the counterparty risk. that was her argument. >> if you run a bank and one of the biggest claim benefits of

bitcoin is it will help the un-banked become banked. >> i don't think that's why jamie thinks that. jamie and charlie and a few other people -- >> you know when you say someone who has an opinion -- >> i think that is jamie's opinion. >> republicans don't like tax reform because they are helping their rich friends. >> that's not true. >> no. >> no. >> what was the issue? >> that was the words you put in the guest's mouth. >> you were kidding. you were kidding? >> yes. >> i thought you were saying yeah. >> it is not. >> i don't think the reason republicans don't like bigger government and more taxes is because it affects their po pock pocketbook. maybe that's true.

i don't know if he read it. i don't know if he really has a firm grasp of what we're talking about. the idea of the distributed ledger that is decentralized. we will see. if it goes to zero, it goes to zero. if it becomes a permanent part and the internet of money and finally becomes that -- >> this is my view. i don't think it is ever the internet of money. what it could be is like digital gold or baseball card that has value. >> that is what i think. baseball card. >> it is a theory. you could argue that with stocks at times. people are buying stocks. i don't think i always go back to the desert island with 20 people. you divvy up the work everybody has to do. if every person keeps a record of every hour of things they do and everyone has the same

ledger, the block cchain, you kw you owe me an hour. there is a value. if you want to use shells or something. >> the value -- we have so many other things to talk about. i could dig a hole. i said it to you before. i could dig a hole and it would have no value to anybody. >> do you think gold is valuable? >> because i spent an hour digging the hole doesn't mean it creates value. >> it is valuable because there is only so much. >> that's why. i didn't tell you this isn't digital gold. >> baseball card is no reason. you are right. >> ask my son. baseball card. basketball cards. >> let's talk about the election. republicans probably like

bitcoin. republican debate last night. i don't know what these four people are doing it for. maybe something could happen. nikki haley is the one that is probably the other three were attacking. i didn't see it. where was it? >> news nation. >> all right. you see republicans hide latest debate. after a week of fund raising and chris christie accused vivek ramaswamy over nikki haley. here is the exchange. here it is. >> look, if you want to disagree on issues, that's fine. nikki and i disagree on some issues. i have known her for 12 years which is longer than he started to vote in the republican primary. while we disagree about issues and we disagree about who should be president of the united states, what we don't disagree

on is this is a smart, pl accomplished woman and you should stop insulting her. >> your accomplishment is closing a bridge from new york and new jersey. enjoy a nice meal and get the hell out of the race. >> that was crazy. >> we'll talk more about that. >> i didn't see it. chris christie said they should focus on the candidate who wasn't on the stage. donald trump. >> not joe biden. >> i don't know. >> first attack is the republican that's been gaining traction. nikki haley. second is the guy who is not on stage. when did they get to joe biden and kamala harris? >> after they figure out the rest of it. what i find fascinating, you have all of these democrats, by the way, on wall street, who are financing or helping finance

nikki haley in the same way they used to help finance chris christie. partially because they don't know how happy they are with biden, but mostly because they want a contend er or anybody wh can throw arrows at trump. a totally twisted version. >> maybe it was reid. i shouldn't say. i can't remember. one ceo tweeted something yesterday about how he is supporting -- ultimately will vote for biden, but supporting nikki haley now for that exact reason. >> the never trumper contingent. whatever it was called. that's a huge -- if you draw those diagrams and for trump, it is the working democrat who is

lost. >> you can't figure out bed fellows. in the meantime, national retail federation is retracting a claim that organized retail crime accounted for half of the $94 billion of inventory losses in 2021. the organization removed that assertion from its report on organized retail crime published in april because of the misinterpretation of the prior data in the partner in the study. the study was used by the retailer for justification for closing stores and shortening operating hours. it stands behind the understood fact that organized retail crime is impacting stores of all sizes across the nation. i don't know what the mistake was or what happened. we'll dig into that and see if we can figure it out. >> there is organized crime and organized crime.

i don't know. when i hear organized crime -- >> you think of the mob. that's not what we are talking about. organization of the theft where you send a crew in to steal stuff and sell it online or some place else. >> tony soprano and his crew. tony walnuts. i loved that guy. great actor. james gandolfini. rutgers. a bad basketball loss. we have dylan harper. he signed yesterday. we have two of the top five picks in the nation for next year. ace bailey. that was his older brother. ron harper. >> his ol older brother. when we come back, the ten-year yield falling to the lowest level in months. we will talk strategy after this break. later, the ceo of french drugmaker sanofi, will join us

ahead of r&d day. you arwahie tcng "squawk box" and this is cnbc. >> announcer: this cnbc program is sponsored by baird. visit bairddifference.com. the mercedes-benz holiday love celebration is here. come in now for the exceptional offers you're bound to love, now, through january 2nd. ( ♪ ♪ ) ( ♪ ♪ ) ♪ (when the day that) ♪ ♪ (lies ahead of me) ♪

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the yield on the ten-year

note is hitting a three h-year w yesterday. right now, the yield is at 4.15%. yippee. joining us is james camp at eagle asset management. james, this is weird. the run-up in yields and now the pull back. where do you think things shake out? that is driving every asset class. >> the treasury rally is exhausted if you look at the technical indicators and the short covering and the premature idea that maybe the federal reserve can do something pivot wise into next year. we take the opportunity to reduce the profits. the november experience was the highest in the bond market in 40 years. clients who saw the 5% number six weeks ago were good to get in. we are exhausted on treasuries.

expect them to bounce higher from here. >> how does that compare to other money markets and other ind instruments? >> lock in the long h-term yiel at high numbers. we know the cash sorting in the pan banking system and money markets are attractive. those get rolled every year. we talk about retirees. we know one thing about bonds. peak fed and this goes back to the five tightening cycles i lived there. we are evncouraging yields. >> look in as long as you can? >> right. >> what do you tell people beyond that? if yields are coming back down, where do you think this translates? i know you are talking to retirees, but what is the best you can hope for here?

>> i think the idea of orchestrating the soft landing is misguided. until they come off 2%, it is 2%. that is a late fourth quarter 2024 phenomena. that means rates stay higher. you have an opportunity for mixed income. the second is the economy slows. when the economy slows or rece recession, you will see rotation. this is good for dividend stocks and utilities and good for the equity markets that languished in the narrow tech-led rally. the income runway is as generous and optimistic for investors we had in a number of years. >> how do you look at asset allocation? the old rule of 60/40 was something that got thrown out a few years ago. >> it did. in 2022, everything went down and we decided it was no good. if you are tactical, you can ada

l add a lot of value. at this moment, you know we have a higher cash position. bonds rally and stocks rally together. until the correlations get normal, we will hold a higher percentage of cash. un underweight equities because the dividend side has yet to catch up to the market. the fixed-income yield differential is 6% for the mortgage rate premium. for income investors, lean into the bond side for now. >> how much cash? >> 10% give or take. if we go through 4/13, that is the signal we are bullish on bonds. we are waiting to see if we get breadth from the equity market. the dividends are paying, but falling away from the benchmark.

from the utility and a function standpoint, they continue to hit the mark. there are a lot of companies we love. >> james, thank you for coming in. >> pleasure. coming up, the state of florida is launching expanded gambling and sports betting. we take you live to the hard rock in hollywood, florida. that's next on "squawkox b." >> that's near orlando. i think i've seen it there. >> announcer: this cnbc program is sponsored by baird. visit bairddifference.com. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are.

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the seminole tribe launching the digital sports betting platform and opening at three locations in florida. br contessa brewer is joining us. it is not nevada, in vegas, that you are thinking of, but anywhere there is gambling? >> reporter: i made a bid to be the reporter and cover lots of other vices. they think gambling keeps me busy enough. look, south florida is the scene of big excitement here today. hard rock and the seminole tribe hit the jackpot. near monopoly on sports betting. mobile sports betting on the app and trotting out a-list celebrities to throw the first dice at the craps table tonight. here is the chairman of hard rock. >> you see the excitement.

the game of roulette and specifically in south florida with the amazing amount of visitations from international guests from brazil and argentina and central and south america is a boost to our business. >> reporter: look, they won. fanduel and draftkings fought to get a piece of the gambling action in florida. the gaming industry considers this a super state with the 23 million population and growing. hard rock defended those attacks to get on the ballot and win the gaming licenses and operate sports books. that brings the advantage to hard rock in florida, but now you have hard rock taking that to commercial casinos in atlantic city and vegas strip and now fighting to win one of three licenses in new york city. i asked the chairman yesterday

how much of a threat should they consider hard rock and seminole. he said we have a big business and we know how to run it. joe. >> you think about the teams, college and professionals, and you want to wager in florida. >> reporter: three nfl teams, two nba teams, two hockey teams, two college teams. you can't bet on new york and new jersey. there are three power houses in it florida. this is a state that loves its sports. the opportunity is hard rock is the most downloaded app. if you opened it up so people can download the app and open a new account on hard rock in florida means you have a massive

amount of adult population ready to get in there and play the game. all of my contacts in the casino industry are blowing up my phone right now that i called this sin reporting. this is entertainment. not a vice. >> a lot of an appeal. if you are in a high tax bracket, you go down and rent or buy a place and it is almost what you pay in state taxes where you come from or you can use it for gambling. >> reporter: by the way, on the tax front, jim allen said this is one of the reasons why they focused in florida. they were not triying to get a mobile sports betting license in new york. the tax in new york is 51%. he said it is hard to pay a profit if you pay the state 51% tax. in october, the amount waged was

$2 billion in new york alone. the prediction is florida will overtake new york in terms of being the nation's leader for how much is wagered. the advantage to the tribe and advantage to the tribal members in profit sharing is huge if you are not paying 51% on the mobile sports take. >> a lot going on. you have the weather and everything else. you know who lives down there? florida man. you ever see florida man? >> every day in the news. >> he's in the news. that guy. florida man. contes contessa, good to have you on once again. >> she gets around. >> florida man gets around. "squawk box" is coming right back.

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good morning. welcome back to "squawk box." we're live at the nasdaq market site in times square. times square man competes with

florida man. if you look at the dow futures, off 57. nasdaq off 46. french drugmaker sanofi kicks off r&d day and joining us on set for the interview is paul hudson. the ceo of sanofi. you like it better than the remote shots. once you have been to paris. >> he was. >> normally i'm via zoom. it is a place yeasure to meet y person. a pleasure to see you in davos in january. >> it is a tough business. you are hit with i have to spend enough money to develop new drugs, but i want to have shareholders to own my stock.

i need to generate revenue and margins. it wasn't too long ago when some people would say the spending you needto do for a new drug candidate is more than they thought. margins will not be expanded as much and the stock was down 15%. you need to say why we're doing it. >> there is nothing more important than trans impformati medicine for people. we doubled down on science. today, in new york city, we get to show why we are excited and why we have 12 potential blockbusters to launch. we have to invest in them now. if we hesitate, we may miss that opportunity. we have gone all-in. hopefully people are as excited as we are here. >> the experts, analysts and you need to take a shot of me doing

that, because they will say you are doing this. i don't know the potential for this. you are spending a lot of money on this. there are competitors ahead of you in phase three. they will question your narrative. do you have a good one to tell? >> we do. we will be the world's leading immunology company. we have the most successful medicine. dupixent. we will share why we go from that to the end of the decade and beyond. it is a binary game. you turn the card over and see if you are successful. the deck is stacked with our tremendous shareholder value. >> one of the knocks is dupixent. those were big launches in partnership with somebody else.

how do you know you can trust you can do this on a solo basis? >> what you will see today are the number of drugs in-house. our drug development effort is second to none. you have a drug for hemophilia and dupixent and the drug for rsv. these are first in class and fully developed by sanofi. we have taken them from the beginning and we can develop great medicines. we need more of them. we need more of them in-house and externally. the playbook is set. we know what we are doing and we're excited. i've been at this four years. to be honest, this is the day i've been looking forward to most, not just meeting you guys, obviously, but running the r&d session and sharing with people. >> you have great results? >> we will share detail that people have not seen yet. you can do that today.

you can capture the imagination. these are long-term projects. >> a business model question about r&d and how much you think that effort is against your rivals with lowering the r&d. >> there is a blend of 60/40. there is a discovery piece at the beginning of the idea. we know we're great at drug development, but we need more assets to go into the system. we will share 12 of those today which is the biggest number in immunology in any company. it is an exciting time for us. >> a couple of weeks ago on the

27th when you read the literature and people say you unexpectedly shocked people by abandoning 2025 margin targets. what were the previous targets? >> we set margin targets for 2025. we set them in 2019. it was 32%. >> now did you then on 27th say? >> we said we will have a strong rebound in eps growth in 2025. the most important thing is we will spend hundreds of millions of dollars in drug development because the shots we take now are the ones we take beyond the end of the decade and dupixent. >> can you tell us what you are expecting now? >> we will share it today. we will have a solid rebound in eps in 2025 over 24. >> what does it look like? >> we haven't shared that. >> do you know? >> i have an an an -- i have an

idea. >> the real challenge is is how do you spend in r and d and making sure we can go all the way through and get this medicine. >> you need to convince people. they will not just accept on face value you what you are saying? >> we hit 13 consecutive quarters of growth. we beaten every number since 2019. we're a great story. people see that as we get through 2024 and beyond. that is not a problem for us. the challenge was always going to be can we spend enough in r&d? >> do you need different shareholders? do you need a different class of shareholders to say we will be

with you through the journey? >> we hold all our shareholders equally. those thinking of value opportunity and if you develop 12 medicines between now and the end of the decade, that is first class. you need people to have a long-term view. we have quarterly and annual commitments we can't miss. we will get on with the year at hand and we wanted flexibility to double down. we will convince people today because we're in great shape we can get that done. literally, i waited four years for today. it all moves from here. >> you are doing it here on set. >> can you believe it? >> instead of looking into that --disconcerting. >> good to be here.

thank you. coming up, a lot more on "squawk box" this morning. gamestop and chewy are down sharply. you are looking at gamestop down 7%. chewy close to 10%. later, you don't want to miss the interview with senator elizabeth warren. you can download and listen any time. we'll be right back. >> announcer: cnbc is sponsored by interactive brokers. the best informed investors are interactive brokers.

they must be migrating. we're going to jamaica. i really want to see that. i wanna go to jamai... where they make jam. ok, fine. come here. [ grunting ] woo-hoo. why are we the only birds heading this way? where's your mother? ahh! that is not your mother.

stay close to me and everything will be alright. [ gasps ] [ gulp ] oh, i'm ok. it is a rough morning for ryan cohen. two companies sinking after quarterly results. gamestop reporting a loss of 1 penny per share. the company revealing a new policy allowing gamestop to invest excess cash in stocks instead of the previous practice of buying short-term investment grade fixed income. a way to boost on a short-term basis, but that is not something to put a multiple on. shares of chewy on falling 8

cents per share. revenue below estimates. guidance is having a big impact for the quarter falling short. the company is saying macroeconomics pressures industry wide. i don't know if you think it is a problem? >> i don't know what to do with gamestop. i would know how to run that. i think i could run chewy. why is that down? people are bonkers. >> it ran up during the pandemic. >> online stuff. >> people were spending all this time with their pets and adopting new pets. >> it is totally inelastic at the pet stores. >> people were questioning if it should be $120 during the pandemic. >> i buy freezed d dried chicke

thing. a bag this big is $85. for treats. $16 for a little bag. they charge you and laugh at you as you are there. it is for your dogs. the kids are starving. pharmaceutical company abbvie is buying cereval they're p p therapeutics for $8.7 billion. abbvie says that company will bring over drugs. >> you made a funny. >> you miss a lot of them because you have that ipad open. >> he just gave you a compliment. just say thank you. >> if you would be tuned in. >> i would laugh more? >> it would put you in a better mood and being jovial. >> we are. look at us.

we're having fun. >> drugs for neurological disorders remain afor psychosis and schizophrenia. top line drugs including humira faces generic competition. that is staring all of them in the face for the constant need for new medicine. last week, you may recall abbvie decided to buy imunigen for $100 million. coming up, highlights and reaction from the gop debate otherwise known as the circus took place. reminder, you can watch us any time on the cnbc app. beautiful shot there of the white house live this morning.

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welcome back to "squawk box." republican presidential candidates taking the stage once again last night. ron desantis and vivek ramaswamy focusing their attacks this time on nikki haley after she recently won over some big backers. >> the only person more fascist than the biden regime now is nikki haley, who thinks the government should identify every one of those individuals with an i.d. that's not freedom. that's fascism and she should could nowhere near the levers of power. >> i love all the attention,

fellas. thank you for that. >> what did you make of last night, what were the highlights in your mind and did anybody make any real progress? >> i mean, i think the main takeaway it was a good night for donald trump. from the very beginning of this year, donald trump's main impair tif imperative was to keep this from booking a two-person race and what you saw is this is -- continues to be a doggy pile where everyone is climbing over each other, trying to become that second person. i think nikki haley has been by far the most consistent and best debater. this was also by far her worst night in part because everyone was attacking her. you know, she also had a little bit of a rough week in new hampshire, where she staked a lot of her candidacy. she also just departed with her new hampshire state director. and, you know, i think she put it pretty well after the debate in the post debate interview with megyn kelly, asked how it

went, she said fine. >> so, nobody you think is making progress to actually -- i don't want to say outtrump trump but to get to trump. the question is who do you think on that stage might be trying to vie for second place, meaning his vice president? >> that's such an interesting question. i mean, i think certainly not chris christie, who has been incredibly blunt in his criticisms of donald trump. i would say, you know, the person that is clearly the most aligned ideologically and has basically not criticized trump at all is vivek ramaswamy. and in fact in some ways he's the trump avatar on that stage. he -- and not just in terms of his ideology, but also in terms of sort of creating chaos and making the debate, you know -- making it so no clear person can

emerge. you see the way that he attacks both ron desantis and nikki haley who are the strongest candidates in the polling on that stage and have the best chance of becoming that main trump alternative. the way he sort of just is swinging at polls is pretty -- makes it so he is sort of a trump blunt tool on that stage. >> has the desantis campaign fizzled out at this point? is there any life in it? >> no, i actually don't think it is quite fizzled out. clearly all these nonstop process stories that really began in july when they had that cash crunch, the fact that they're now undergoing a purge on that main super pac and installing close to desantis allies, you know, it really has not gone well. that being said, you know, he has the endorsement of the governor of iowa. sort of an extraordinary step. usually statewide officials in iowa do not endorse in the caucus. it is a way of sort of maintaining neutrality and

keeping the caucus, you know, keeping the caucus prominent. but i think he has a strong operation in iowa. he probably has the strongest operation in iowa. perhaps even more so than trump. and if he gets a close second or even -- if he gets a close second in iowa, i would say you could watch out for sort of a comeback. that being said, you know, trump is by far the dominant front-runner in this race. ron desantis was close to him, back in last spring, and essentially since he got in the race, it has been a steady decline. but, you know, it is not a national primary, and ron desantis surprises in iowa, essentially expectations are pretty low now. >> just real quick, the dominos of this point, there is a moment in which ramaswamy said to chris christie get off the stage, stop your campaign already. >> and called him fat. >> i didn't want to go there.

it's beyond. but my question -- my broader question is in terms of folks who you think might actually step off the stage, how -- in what order would that happen at this point? >> i think it is very unlikely that any of those four candidates are going to drop out before new hampshire. now, it is possible that chris christie does not believe that he has a chance to get second place in new hampshire, that he could drop out before. the really interesting thing in terms of you mentioned the dominos here, there is a month gap between the january 23rd new hampshire primary and the february 24th south carolina primary. if the field consolidates right after new hampshire, and it is just a one on one race, it will give the -- it will give one candidate the best chance to go one on one against trump going into that decisive primary. it is the best chance they have. >> we're up against a hard break. we appreciate urimthyo te is morning. we'll talk to you again very

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back to "squawk box" here on cnbc. we're live at the nasdaq market site in times square. i'm andrew ross sorkin with becky quick and joe kernen. look at u.s. equity futures this morning. let's show you where things stand. basically some red on the dow, green everywhere else. dow up 63 points. the nasdaq up 43 points. the s&p 500 looking to open marginally higher about a point. treasury yields, ten-year and two-year, right now, sitting just at about 4.151% on the ten-year. and then finally, oil, you're looking at wti crude sitting just now under $70. we're going to talk more about that, the energy patch, 69.75. we should mention crypto, we're going to be talking to mike novogratz from galaxy digital in a bit. bitcoin at $43,000, coming down a little bit from $44,000, but has gone on a massive, massive run. >> markets waiting for

tomorrow's key employment report. that's right. it is finally jobs friday. this is all happening as treasury yields continue to slide from historic levels. for more on what has been driving the bond market now, we want to get to steve liesman. historic levels, maybe not historic. recent history? i don't know, steve. >> these are big moves in the bond market for sure. this comes weeks after the ten-year hit 5%. the markets worried could the government fund the big deficit. bonds rallied and yields have fallen in the sharpest decline of the year. and one of the sharper ones in several years. the yield on the ten-year, down by 87 basis points since mid-october when it touches near 5%. and 37 basis points of that has come just since thanksgiving. john cavadan of oxford says what has been driving the ten year has been better inflation data, repricing on the fed and hedge funds covering their shorts.

you also have pension funds and insurance companies moving to lock in those long rates before they miss them. that's driven in part by this growing belief the fed is done hiking rates and will cut next year. in mid-october, the market was priced for about 70 basis points of cuts next year. that has doubled with 130 basis points now built in and priced into the fed funds future markets. and cuts beginning as soon as march. rick reeder of black rock, he tells me, i think the front end is over its skis. i don't think they'll be easing in march. markets will be watching carefully another round of big treasury auctions next week after results led to stock sell-offs in october. three and six months, 143 billion. these are just massive numbers. ten-year notes, 37 billion. and the 30-year, that happens next week. for now it seems lower inflation, hedge fund shorts covering and belief that deep fed rate cuts next year are common fears of the government and how it is going to fund that $33 trillion deficit.

this bond market as you can see there, it is showing sentiment turning very quickly back to fear and concern, becky. >> i think that volatility is what has so many people on edge. what about some of the international buyers like china and japan, steve. >> you know, i did some work on that, becky. and my friend luke grandle who covers the treasury closer than anybody in the whole country, he sent me this chart, and it shows that china and japan have not -- over many, many years been huge buyers. if you look at foreign international holdings of treasuries, what you see is that china and japan, they hold a lot of bonds, but they have not been moving very much, every one else has. we have found international buyers, it is just not china and japan. of course, japan going through its own issues with yield curve controls. so, that's something to watch, becky, i don't know that they hold a lot of bonds, but they have not been big marginal buyers despite what people think. >> they haven't bought more as we have been issuing more, i

guess that's the point. >> right. >> they haven't expanded to our view of the expansion. steve, thank you. we'll see you later. >> pleasure. let's talk markets now. emily rowland is co-chief investment strategist at john hancock investment management. emily, it is good to have you on. and we're once again, i think we're just maybe as data dependent as the fed. the big number might be tomorrow, right? >> yeah. absolutely, joe. the jobs data is going to be critical tomorrow. so far we have seen this environment in which good, you know, news on the disinflation front has just caused this massive risk on rally. kind of amazing, we talked about this big move in treasuries, it was really in mid-november when cpi came in less than expected by .1%. .1%. and you just see this massive rally in bond yields to cause

the dollar to weaken, the dollar weakening is like this global liquidity release valve that causes cheaper funding, causes financial conditions to loosen and then you see this big risk on move in assets. i think the critical thing that we'll look for tomorrow is, you know, bad news on the labor front, we have certainly seen some cracks in the jobs market, data over the course of the last couple of weeks, is that going to continue to be good news or is it actually going to become bad news for markets because it shows that growth is actually slowing. >> we have talked before about how you allocate assets depending on what your situation is, and john hancock, you obviously know how to protect people's money, get the return of their money in addition to return on their money. but the thing that we're always faced with is financial assets are correlated. so it is not like there is a time where, you know, i'm going to buy bonds because stocks are going to be horrible, they're usually -- they usually move in

tandem. so, how do you decide? would you go big in term right now, go ten years with a lot of money because you think rates are going to continue coming down? >> well, right now, joe, that certainly is happening. again, this big move lower in treasuries is obviously been great for bond investors and you've seen equities celebrate in the form of this pivot party. so essentially markets are celebrating disinflation, pricing in the fact that the fed is cutting rates, but at john hancock, we always look at the fundamental picture. inflation falling actually isn't a great fundamental thing for stocks. right? inflation was great for corporate profits. we saw record revenue growth for the s&p 500. and the height of this stimulus infused rally. so that is actually fading. so when we look at stocks, you know, we think they could be fine next year, but the expectations are huge. you got analysts pencilling in 11% earnings growth for the s&p 500.

and we're trading at 19 times forward multiple. the math just doesn't look great. meanwhile, you move over to the bond side and the math looks really, really good to us. we just saw this massive backup in bond yields over the last couple of years. we're looking at 5%, 6% income in high quality bonds. we see how quickly these moves can take place. and in the face of an economic contraction which we think plays out next year, we think bonds can play much bigger role in portfolios. one place it wouldn't be is cash. if stocks keep working and bonds keep working into next year, cash would actually start to be a drag in port grfolios which i different dynamic than we have seen over the course of 2023. >> the only thing you just don't want the fomo of a big rally. and if you don't think it is happening, then you do 6% income and rates continue to fall and you get some principle appreciation too, it really could be verse either flat or

sometimes stock markets go down. so, i see -- i see the rational for that. i just wish someone knew for sure. we know about predictions, particularly hard about when they're about the future, right? have you heard that, emily? >> a little bit. >> emily, appreciate it. thank you. >> thanks. >> which one you like better, the no one goes there, way too crowded, or -- >> always partial in that one. >> but predictions are hard, especially about the future. because so many people say -- >> this is yogi. >> you know how many people say forecast going forward. have you heard of a forecast going backward? >> those are easier to do. >> i can nail those. >> it is the crowd, that's a great saying. it is hard to top that. >> it is true. >> yes. >> okay, coming up, let's talk oil prices because they are near their lowest level since june.

it has been venezuela raising the stakes over disputed territory. we're going to talk about that after the break. galaxy digital's michael novogratz will talk to us about bitcoin after jamie dimon slamming crypto saying he would close it down. quk x"etnsn "sawbo rur ia moment. >> announcer: this cnbc program is sponsored by baird. visit bairddifference.com. trading at schwab is now powered by ameritrade, unlocking the power of thinkorswim, the award-winning trading platforms. bring your trades into focus on thinkorswim desktop with robust charting and analysis tools, including over 400 technical studies. tailor the platforms to your unique needs with nearly endless customization. and track market trends with up-to-the-minute news and insights.

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welcome back, everybody. this is some big news internationally and has impacts for the markets, particularly the oil markets. venezuelan president maduro is preparing to move on the disputed oil rich region of guyana after venezuelans voted to claim the rights to that land. joining us right now for how this might affect the oil markets and the rest of the energy landscape is matt smith, he's lead america's analysts at kapler. let's talk through some of the things really quickly. i was shocked to hear this. i did not realize that there was this disputed territory that goes back over 100 years. there has been nothing recently but all of a sudden now that some of the big oil companies, exxon and now chevron through its most recent purchase are getting involved with this, maduro says, hey, we want that land too. >> yes, no, absolutely. and the vote, the referendum was symbolic more than anything else. it is not legally binding or anything like that.

but really it is just maduro is trying to curry favor in the area there. the reason that we didn't really see a price response is because it is a low probability of this event actually happening. to your point, guyana, this wasn't an issue 10, 15, 20 years ago because guyana wasn't producing any crude. it started in 2020, added 200,000 barrels a day, it added another 200,000 barrels a day a year or so later. and a third crude stream is coming online now. and we have the first export loading yesterday, and so you're going 200, 400, 600, they're expected to get to 1.2 million barrels a day by 2027. something like that. and so you're surpassing bolivia and angola, something like that. >> this land that they, i guess, venezuela looked at as relatively useless and ceded control, that -- by the way, this goes back over 100 years, these disputes. all of a sudden it may be worth something. you say it is low probability. but if maduro sent in forces,

guyana is not in a position to be able to compete from a defense perspective. >> yes, sure. but there is also the sanctions going on in the background as well. the u.s. is trying to place sanctions on them in terms of hoping for democratic election out of venezuela next year. so -- >> we thought they would -- we thought they would behave better. there isn't exactly an -- >> i don't think we're going to see anything. what is interesting as well is with brazil, you have brazil sort of ministerizing as well. brazil is in a similar situation to guyana, production is at a record, we're seeing sort of 400,000 barrels a day growth out of them this year. same coming through next year as well. so, you've got venezuela that their production is going to be increasing because of easing sanctions, but to your point, they're looking offshore, they're seeing this plethora of oil and trying to do a grab for it. >> are you shocked that wti is below $70 a barrel this morning?

>> we expected prices to drop a few months ago but we expected it into early next year. and the reason for that is because the first third of next year looks really soft. and so if we're -- in terms of supply outpacing demand. with opec coming through, making cuts, we expect saudi arabia to keep their 1 million barrel a day production cut in place through the entire of next year. just because things are so soft. but it has been the demand side of the picture as well. so we have seen the deterioration there, and the same time we're seeing supply growth from guyana, from brazil, the u.s., canada, so it is the combination of these things that has pushed wti to this level. >> sorry, matt, so, one thing we talked about yesterday was liz cheney, but the dictator donald trump was on with sean hannity, former president trump, said, no, i won't be a dictator except for day one. he said close the border and drill, drill, drill. we also just recently saw that we hit peak production, we have never been this high. we finally came back from where

we were prepandemic. >> exactly. >> so price dictates activity in the oil patch. is it possible we could go up another 10% or 20% if all regulations, not all, but if some of the ones that people complain about when president biden was running, he said i will shut down the fossil fuel industry. and keystone, things like that. could you remove some of the remaining regulations and go up another 10 or 20%? >> we don't need to, joe. >> we're at max capacity? >> no, no, no. in terms of economics drive, everything, we're over 13 million barrels a day now in terms of -- >> the government is not in the way at all anymore? >> no, we're up a million barrels a day on average this year versus last year. and not going to say we're going to grow by the same next year, but we'll grow 200, 300,000 barrels a day. as long as the economics -- >> we don't need to grease the

skids at this point? >> no. no. not at all. not at all. so, that's why you have opec plus making these production cuts because you have so much growth coming from elsewhere in the world, including the u.s. >> and when do you see u.s. starting to taper in oil production? what year in the future? >> i think we have got a good number of years of -- maybe 10, potentially. the thing is we're exporting that incremental barrel, right? we have got enough for our refineries. we're still in port, medium, crude, producing light sweet crude. as long as there is international demand for the light sweet barrels, we saw record exports last week out of the u.s. if they continue to rise, production will continue to rise. >> matt, thanks for coming in. >> thank you. >> coming up, jamie dimon talked about this earlier, telling congress bitcoin and other crypto should be banned. reaction from galaxy digital's mike novogratz. that's coming up.

up next, is taylor swift the best choice for "time's" person of the year. jon fortt is going to join us to weigh in. >> it is on one hand, there is no two hands to this one. >> she definitely should be the person? >> 100%. 1,000%. i can't even -- >> there is serious things going on, though. isn't there, like, a, i don't know, some peace activist somewhere that are risking their lives for humanity. >> think about the taylor swift economy. think about gdp, gdp improvements as a function of her work. >> travis kelce. >> think about travis kelce. >> i don't know. "time" many ahad a picture, a m >> announcer: time now for today's aflac trivia question. aol acquired what search engine that was considered to be the first widely known and used by the un? the answer when "squawk box" returns. taps out first?

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the public? the answer, webcrawler. the search engine was later acquired by excite, which went bankrupt in 2001. okay. here it is. taylor swift is "time" magazine's person of the year, not surprising, but is she the best choice? that is the question of the morning and guess who is here to weigh in on it. the one and only jon fortt. good morning, sir. what do you think? >> well, jonathan, just kidding, andrew, taylor swift is an obvious choice person of the year, and that's why she is the wrong choice. swift's eras tour is the top grossing live speck tac spectac year. it is a juggernaut on track to make more than $2 billion through next year and become the most lucrative tour ever. while that's amazing, it is not particularly important. the best choice is for person of the year marked a moment in time and what they did in that year defined them and us. churchill in 1940, king in 1963, women in 1975, the computer in

1982. i guess it is fine to choose taylor swift, do what you want, but there is nothing about the unique challenges of 2023 reflected in the choice. so it has got nothing to do with artificial intelligence or geopolitical tumult or inflation, maybe inflation a little. this wasn't even one of taylor swift's most significant years creatively. she didn't break out or cross over or put out a significant new album this year. who is a better choice? sam altman's openai drove artificial intelligence into the mainstream the way jeff bezos did e-commerce when he won in 1999. jensen huang's value, swift will sell more magazines, sure. >> harsh, harsh. >> i kind of agree with everything you just said. >> i agree with everything you said. but, hold on, taylor swift's tour does represent a rare, very rare in this world today, especially given how fractured the media universe is.

it is a massive win. it is a big push on gdp. it has change d the trajectory f some cities temporarily. >> well, andrew, on the other hand, let's not overthink this. yes, taylor swift is the first entertainer to get person of the year for being an entertainer. "time" has been zodoing this sie 1927. the reason why she represents 2023, swift embodies the post covid shift in spending from goods to services. she also captures the rule breaking spirit of the digital movement, rerecording old songs to reclaim them and turning her blockbuster concert tour into a blockbuster movie theater experience, like a double flip of the pandemic. taylor swift deserves to be person of the year because she is the counternarrative. in a year when streaming giant spotify has done three rounds of layoffs, she launched the biggest concert tour of all time. in the year of artificial intelligence, she performed songs she wrote in front of a live audience.

in a taylor swift proved that super rich successful women in the entertainment industry can still shop for arm candy in the nfl. so, sure, you can claim picking taylor is "time's" cynical ploy to sell magazines, but no one is buying magazines anymore, even for this, they do it for the clicks or taps or whatever china is watching our kids do on tiktok. >> very well done. very well done. just i want to praise the wordsmithing of it all too. >> i worked very late at night to make that happen for you guys. >> and then wakes up very early in the morning. >> indeed. i can't complain about that. >> that was well done. that may be one of your best efforts. you can sway me with either argument on that. >> thank you. that's -- i live for that. >> that was a win. you won. you won the game. >> you guys make me feel like taylor swift in 2023. >> you could be cnbc's person of the year right there. >> lots of competition there. but newsletter of the year may

be -- may be fort knox newsletter. i don't see it in the thing. i'm going to give it a plug. no? okay. >> producers don't have it. >> they don't have it? >> just say the address or where to sign up. >> okay, well, cnbc.com/otoh. i'll say it, even if you can't see it. everybody who is listening -- >> otoh. >> on the other hand. >> on the other hand. jon, we appreciate it. that was a really good one. he does a lot of goodies. but this -- >> you can't really -- you can do -- they make all kinds of -- you could do a.i. as the person of the year. >> you could do women, you can do beyonce and what's her name from the barbie movie in there too. greta gerwig. you can do the three. but come on, taylor swift, all right. you can do kanye west, do bad guys. taylor would have loved that.

>> would not have been in the running. >> no. multiple covers, right. >> have they ever done different covers? >> they have. >> they did women, it was multiple -- billie jean king, it was a whole -- >> jon, thank you. on the other side of this, mike novogratz will talk bitcoin and so much more. "squawk box" returns in a moment. >> announcer: this cnbc program is sponsored by truist securities, experience expertise, execution. move to the cloud. - so, the question is... - cyber attack! as cyber criminals expand their toolkit, we must expand as well. we need to rethink... next level moments, need the next level network. [speaker continues in the background] the network with 24/7 built-in security. chip? at&t business.

i've always been deeply opposed to crypto, bitcoin, et cetera. you pointed out the true use case for it is criminals, drug traffickers, antimoney lau launderers, tax avoidance. if i was the government, i would close it down. >> that was jpmorgan chairman and ceo jamie dimon, suggesting to the senate banking committee that cryptocurrency should be banned. meanwhile, price of bitcoin soaring more than 150% this year and more recently topping at

$44,000, right now $43,226 on hopes of a future etf. that's part of the calculus, maybe the calculus being that the fed is going to lower interest rates and easy money policy and what that means. mike novogratz is here, galaxy founder ceo and chairman. let's go straight to the jamie dimon of it all. you -- >> he keeps doubling down. >> you thought what to yourself? >> he keeps doubling down. and he keeps being wrong. what surprises me is so many of jamie's clients, right, some of the wealthiest guys in america, you know, jeff yatz, stan drunkenmiller, big investors, all believe that bitcoin is a store of value. we see it in our client base. our trading desk is busy with hedge funds buying. we see it in institutions buying. and so i don't know where jamie gets off thinking he's smarter than all those guys.

it just -- it is the epitome of -- >> he's spoken out against carried interest and most of his clients happen to be beneficiaries of that and enjoy that and think it is a great idea as well. >> so carried interest is tax policy. i actually kind of agree with jamie. it is very different on what has value. right? i think it is the supreme arrogance he knows what has value but all of the rest of the people don't. people around the world believe in this. they believe in the community, ecosystem, they see governments spending too much money, not just here in the u.s., but everywhere, and think they're going to debase the currency and so, i mean, the story is kind of already been argued and won. larry fink went on your show and said i think we'll see bitcoin in all portfolios, i think it is kind of game over.

>> well, the game hasn't in some ways begun yet because larry fink is not able to offer bitcoin yet to his clients for the most part. so -- >> he will be soon. >> where do you think the s.e.c. is, how much do you think actually what jamie dimon was saying was an effort to stymie or to slow down or to make the s.e.c. rethink wherever it may be if you think that the winds are shifting in your favor, for example? >> you know, i was trying to get in his head yesterday about why he's doing this, right? pandering to elizabeth warren maybe so she doesn't come down hard on banks. there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of sense. and the s.e.c. is going to approve a bitcoin etf and do it soon. all our indications is that is going to happen. it there are seven or eight really credible players -- >> people have been saying that with great certain ty the last

few months. >> i think things shifted. they shifted and we can tell just by our own application with with the type of questions that come back. where you are in that process. they shifted because they lost the court case as well. >> people are watching us who are going to say, mike novogratz is talking his book. he's got so much money invested in this stuff, it has got to work for him. and then there is other people who might say jamie dimon is talking his book. and i will say i'm deferring -- not deferring that i'm agreeing with jamie dimon, but i don't think he's talking his book in that i believe this is a view he has held, being correct. >> he's been consistent. i like jamie. i want him to run for president. i think he's a very smart guy. he's been consistently wrong on bitcoin. he just has. and what he's been wrong about

is the appeal continues to show up everywhere. this is one of the only global assets. not just in the u.s., but in japan, korea, everywhere you see people, you see bitcoin. and that story, it is a -- it is a system of narrative, actually. it is the social construct between two people who say i believe this has value, therefore it does, very similar to gold, and that continues to percolate all over the globe. it is not that complicated, quite frankly. >> i want to make a -- i don't know if this is an observation that is interesting to you or not. anthony papiano was on the set earlier this week and we were talking about how much of bitcoin today is owned both intern internationally, but who the buyers are today and one thing i thought was so interesting and i don't want to misspeak about what he said, but that it was a lot of the same buyers, meaning,

first of all, 70% of bitcoin is held for years now by the same people, and that it is the same people who keep doubling down on it. and i don't know whether you think that's actually a good -- >> great loyalty to this thing. >> i like anthony. i like anthony. but he doesn't have a good broker dealer that's dealing with lots of clients. we're seeing a diverse client base by this. if you look at the public stocks, look at marathon or microstrategy. i mean, michael saler sold $750 million of stock last month and another 750 to buy bitcoin and his stock doesn't go down. there is an unbelievable pent-up demand with u.s. retail equity investors to get exposure to crypto. marathon, riot, all those stocks trade amazingly well with large volume. and so, i really think there is a much broader base of people that want to own digital assets,

that want to own bitcoin, than just the few, you know, crazy bitcoiners that maybe anthony was talking about. >> michael, we're going to leave the conversation there unless my good friends becky, joe, want to weigh in. i know you -- he read all the materials. joe -- >> i just, you know, finally to put it to rest, i don't know when you do put it to rest, i don't know how long, i have people willing to argue on a daily basis about it and they go, well, let's see, the best performing asset for one year, five years, ten years and 15 years, so, you've missed it the entire way. you haven't had it the entire way. when do you say, i was wrong, or i guess it could still go to zero, but then i say there is books -- i was looking at coin, looks like at the 4,000 year history of what money is. and what it represents. and how it works, and why it was developed. and it goes through all these different cultures. and if you just look at the six

characteristics of gold, and you can -- each one of those is even probably more perfected in bitcoin, the way it actually works. people don't understand that gold is not valuable because it is pretty. or that gold is not valuable because it is -- it has certain uses. there is very specific reasons why gold is historic value and has been for 4,000 years and the same six characteristics are even more present in bitcoin. but i've got -- i'm exhausted of -- with talking to people about it. because it is always the same argument. it is always the beanie baby greater fool theory and i ask what book have you read and they haven't read a book about it, not even a page. i give up. >> i think what part of what jamie was saying is it is still used for elicit purposes at a level at which the government doesn't feel comfortable, i think the government would tell you this, doesn't feel comfort they're able to --

>> -- the u.s. government for illicit practices over the last five years. >> what was that, michael, i didn't hear. >> jpmorgan paid billions and billions of dollars of fines for illicit practices. yes -- >> and, but they had to build in a lot of different compliance procedures that the other folks don't haven't done. >> but it is like prostitution. illicit activities is the oldest profession in the world and bitcoin only has been around for ten years. how did it happen? >> i will say, look, this is the same issue with the online child pornography, right? there is zero tolerance for this stuff, online theft of selling goods online, zero tolerance in the real world, a higher tolerance for all of these crimes online. >> can be used for trafficking and child porn -- >> there should be ways to crack down on -- i think this is the

case, it should be more heavily regulated. >> there is great surveillance right now on the blockchain, so-so much of the money that gets stolen gets recovered. companies like chain analysis do an amazing job of tracking where each of these coins go, and plus most institutions, you can't deal with galaxy unless you're kyc'd through a very rigorous process. our process, i'm sure, is far more rigorous than jpmorgan's. because we're under so much scrutiny. and so, you know, the institutional world is shutting off many of those access points for people to get bad money into crypto. and so i think that story is so overblown and used for illicit purposes. we hired mike morell a while ago, ex-cia director to do a report. he said if law enforcement wanted to create a system to track down criminals, it would look a lot like bitcoin. and so i think this myth and

narrative that the anticrypto people have run with, they keep pounding the table, here there are some examples -- >> i have read stories recently about how they are more effectively tracking down some of these things. and that crypto, because it is a ledger, because you can definitely track down who owns it, potentially this is something that gets better and better with tracking things down. >> again, i just -- i would refer everybody to jpmorgan's fines to the u.s. government, shocking amount. >> big bank. i would say they're probably trying to crack down on this stuff too. >> i'm sure they are and still not doing it well. but the rest of the european banks, with the money laundering. so, you know, it is -- my goodness there is gambling going on here, i think it is just the epitome of hypocrisy. >> michael, it is a longer debate. we look forward to seeing you again very, very soon. >> thanks, guys. >> seeing where this all goes.

we will be speaking to senate banking committee and armed services committee member elizabeth warren in the next hour about all of this and so much more. a number of mergers grabbing the attention of the doj and investors. special assistant to the president for tech and competition tim woo will join us. we're coming right back. do you consider climate risk? changing weather patterns are impacting the way we live and the value of businesses large and small. this can mean disruption to supply chains, changing demand for products and shifting regulation. what does this mean for your business, your clients, and your investments? ice offers data and markets that can provide critical insight. manage your climate risk with ice.

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coming up next, is consolidation bad for business investors? we'll speak with professor tim wu and then later senator elizabeth warren will be our special guest. all that and more when we come back to this.

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the trial of jetblue's $3.8 billion acquisition of spirit airlines is nearing an end. a federal judge earlier this week raised the possibility of allowing the deal to continue, contingent on jetblue divesting more assets. our next guest has an op-ed in "the new york times" exploring the impact of the airline industry's consolidation on consumers, questioning whether it caused more harm than previously thought. and joining us with more on this right now is columbia law school professor tim wu. tim served as an advise tear the biden administration on technology and competition policy and this matters, the airline industry is a huge part of our economy right now, ties things together. what is your commentary that bigger is bader? >> i just think the record is that every one of these airlines

when they merge end up with lower quality for consumers, more seats packed in, and various forms of price fixing. i think the judge has an anticompetitive merger in front of him and should block it. >> you're talking about not necessarily monopoly, there is a lot of different carriers, mono. a lot of different carriers i guess in each market one carrier becoming the dominant force changes things? >> part of this is congress passed a law in 1950, anti-merger act saying if the merger substantially reduces competition. it is illegal. trying to prevent over concentration. airlines it's about individual routes. one of the most important pieces of data in this case is that jetblue itself noticed or analyzed, found out, that the roots go, prices go up by 30% when spirit leaves. they have a sense if they

eliminate spirit raising prices up to 30%. >> a philosophical question. by the way, i don't disagree with you as relates to this specific transaction. a fair argument to be made this is a blockable deal, but you made a much larger argument in the piece about service levels, about the seats -- the whole, you know -- just that's not taking into consideration in terms of what's happened, the flip side is you can argue that airlines -- travel, air travel, has been democratized. right? a thing for people wealthy and maybe for middle class in the '60s and '70s. now feels like, i don't want to say anybody, but a lot of people can actually buy a ticket, and ticket prices have gone up on a relative basis inflation adjusted maybe even a deal or a steal. so how do you as a, an academic, also somebody thinking about this in an antitrust way answer this?

>> depends how far you go back. i agree back to the '70s. '50s, '60s, '70s, only wealthy could fly. like the computer. in the '60s, who owned a computer? nobody like us. and then a decrease in price. i think it stopped 10, 15 years allowing delta, american, to buy -- >> not flourished. tough times even recently. >> part of the business model. a problem, get a bailout. >> but here's -- as a secondary question. so there is -- you know more about this than i do about antitrust law. there are sort of views about failing companies. right? sometimes we allow companies to merge when we think they're failing. the return on equity, return on investment, return on capital in the airline business is not a wonderful business. i think it's -- >> i guess agree. 2010s airlines

ex-extraordinarily profitable. >> you say that on a -- a era-wide basis? talking maybe 10%. >> utilities, we think about, people have to take them. the train, like, you know, like the, other things essential to the economy. if those are making massive profits. >> when you say that, if i was making 10% on my money, would you say that's a massive profit? what's a number that -- >> you don't want the government paying for you this and winding up like amtrak a. good solidly profitable. put it that way. $8 billion, $9 billion. ceo said never lose money again. >> they were wrong. >> what's that? >> they were wrong. >> then have trouble get money in the government to support them. >> covid is different. i think covid is different. covid shut everybody down. >> bankruptcy proceedings early 2000s, 9/11. >> 9/11 and covid bids out of their --

>> always something. nature of their business. could save the money for shots instead of taxpayers. >> the shots -- >> tim and i are together on that one actually. >> there was a time, compared, kind of a tech industry. compare them to computers. got way cheaper over time and gotten better. airline service, hard drives gotten lower. airlines -- if you went to a 1970s airplane, same product actually with larger seats. the '90s -- >> not necessarily. much more fuel efficient. >> a little more fuel efficient, but essentially -- >> i don't know if you can -- value for this. so many more flights. meaning, used to be one flight. two a day. >> now there's 10, 20, 30 flights available. do you give -- that's a value to this system that you can get on the plane to go to l.a.x. at 9:00 a.m. and on at 10:00 a.m. and 11:00 a.m. and 12 a.m.

30 years ago -- >> it's a good argument net to let jetblue buy spirit. >> another article according to th the "new york post" talking about fake accounts for kids using artificial intelligence generated photos, created accounts for kids 13-year-old girls and things. found out all of these sexual predators who came after them on these meta social sites, nothing being done about it. >> it is an ongoing scandal. >> horrible pictures, genitalia, no way to wlok these things sugar daddies pay you $5,000 to be my sugar baby? >> ongoing scandal. social media has become the new tobacco except worse than lung cancer. sexual exploitation. it's shocking to me congress has not done anything. states are trying to do things. federal judges stopping them. it is a scandalous, terrible situation and embarrassing for all lawmakers involved. >> thank you.

we'll keep pushing this. you're working o ining on anoth. come back. >> they have pods, lucky to be in front of the plane. pods, seats go all the way down. entertainment options watching, like, "super bad," the movie, white the flight -- have you been in one of those products? you don't think that's an improvements? she have the gross chicken still. >> on the '70s airplanes they had a lounge in economy. a lounge, in economy class. i agree things have gotten better in first class. >> been in a pod? >> pods are good. >> pod people? >> pods are good, but just saying for the people of this country, airlines have become uncomfortable, smaller, more expensive. >> man of the people. yeah, yeah, yeah. row 23. >> new york to l.a. and get on a plane doesn't have a pod and luxy enough to be first class, aren't you disappointed? i am. i think the seats -- >> look at the seat guru before you book your plane. so you can figure out what kind

of seats they have. >> do the trick. >> some things don't have -- pods. >> i just, compared to other industries airlines -- >> same as in the '70s. same price or cheaper. >> not improved the way of the tech industries, the way they have. coming up -- >> i see. >> except when they come back to jfk. >> back to jfk and then take an uber. interview you can't afford to miss. senator elizabeth warren talking about yesterday's hearing, taxes and more. and fureoftus the day coming. we'll be right back. ng you an elevated experience, tailor-made for trader minds. go deeper with thinkorswim: our award-wining trading platforms. unlock support from the schwab trade desk, our team of passionate traders who live and breathe trading.

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he'd shut down crypto if he could. and elizabeth warren joins us later on and the final hour of "squawk box" begins right now. good morning, welcome back to "squawk box" here on cnbc live from the nasdaq mark site in times square. i'm joe kernen along with becky quick and andrew ross sorkin. i don't know if we mentioned it, but it's thursday. best day of the week. a little close to monday, but the anticipation of friday is right in front of us. >> you can taste it. >> you almost can. can't you? u.s. equity futures at this hour mixed. we've got gains in the nasdaq and s&p, the dow off just a little. treasuries kind of interesting to watch all week long. i think on the ten year now, as

you can see, under 420. in fact, 4.15. those are multiyear, multimonth, i should say, lows. much lower than that, as we know, but went up over 5 and now haven't been at 4.15 isn't a while. oil prices interesting things happening. rebounding back above 70 now, but at a 6 handle earlier and then, of course, talked a lot about bitcoin and, went from 65 -- quickly. 65 to 17. >> yep. >> almost like a, almost as bad as a pandemic stock. and then back to 25, 26, where it stayed for a while and looked like it could go back to 17 and then to 0 according to some. but it didn't. broke to 30, from 30 to 40 and now 43 and change. 43.5. sorry stories investors are

likely to talk about today. meta, microsoft will use amd's new artificial intelligence chip. chips from market leader nvidia can cost around $40 apiece and a new company offering would have to cost less to buy and operate in order to compete. the amd chips are slated to begin shipping next year. s.e.c. and asset managers looking to list bitcoin etfs currently quarking on technical details. a sign approval could be coming soon. according to reuters. the news service says the technical details include custody arrangements, redemption mechanisms and investors risk disclosures. and advi acquiring a therapeutics company for $8.7 billion. that deal a new attempt by abvi a cancer drug developer.

private equity, state of the industry, impact of falling interest rates and bring in the founder and ceo of new mountain capital, managing more thanes 45ds billion in private equity and real estate commitments and helped found goldman sachs private equity group in the early 1980s. love having you, not you, but real estate people on. it's, it's great, really. reminds me of the movie "wall street." buying. oh, nothing. can't get anything. trying to sell. i remember, business always good according to you? andrew was a little bit suspect when you said things are going great. are they going great or always going great? >> knock wood, it's been another good year for my firm and, remember, 5,000 private equity fi firms owning 30,000 companies. a general statement about private equities, got to be

careful not just use anecdotes for conclusions. my strategy built on non-cyclical industries and adding value. the better we are at adding value to companies the better we can do and interest rates are kind of a background noise. >> i think of senator warren on, you love private equity. love leading these interviews but meet here. gave his to me. it's really your thing. you think private equity has been in the dumps? >> no. i just think right now i think you had very high valuations for a very long time and now interest -- you said the interest rate picture to you is just something in the background. i think for a lot of people maybe you're different it's in the foreground. >> well, i mean, i think if you do private equity properly, it should be in the background. if you're a person who buys a house and has 20 master carpets to add to the house, you add more to a house up or down a percent, doesn't really change

what you do. a better buying opportunity. i started my career october 1, 1981. ten year treasury, 15.84% highest rates in history literally the day before i started work and that in hindsight was the greatest time to enter private equity because value ace was low. >> right. >> so when interest rates move around it means the deal's done just before interest rates rose have a headwind. means things you're buying now at the higher rates are better, because you're getting a better value. so -- always buying and selling. >> and for -- folks at home, to the extent able to invest in private equity oftentimes folks at home if they invest do it through some other institution offering them a vintage fund, multiple private equity funds and say to themselves, is this the year? going to be a great vintage? >> yeah. >> you know, eight years from now? >> well, you know, again, i think it's more, is this a great

firm adding great value to a specific company versus, we're not an index of past assets. one restaurant versus another. then i don't know what to say. in general, the best vintage years in private equity have been after the bad news hits. in my career, 1990 when drexel and junk bods crashed, a fantastic year to buy. at new mountain, 2009, right after the, we did wonderful acquisitions, and nowhere near like that. this is not a crisis economy. this is, i describe it as kind of rainy weather where you're more walking up the hill in the rain than down the hill in the sunshine, but you know, it's generally a better vintage for new money. the deals done before the ride. private equity always buying and selling. >> and versus walking down the hill -- not selling me. what could be worse? blizzard climbing a mountain? >> does unless the two are marked down by a tremendous

amount of cost. >> and harvesting or -- don't you always want to know? >> yeah. >> always want both. >> and we are doing both. so i -- got to be careful not to market my fund. we've sents $15 billion cash back to lps since january 1 under these conditions. including public. sold a company to cvs and the story at signified started two little businesses. one called advance one san a sale $5 million and ended up $8 billion in value. the store not how interest rates changed. the story what did we do to that company to make it go from one value to another? that's the story of private equity -- >> let me ask you this. a separate question. given all the different businesses you have in your portfolio today, you do have a pretty good read on super sentiment and b2bs you only, expenditures what other businesses want to spend and how people are feeling's what do you

see? >> i say a rainy economy. for example, in some industries destocking of inventory, under covid, supply chains were tight. customers would build up inventory balances and cash was free. you can get a temporary lag as people restock inventory. some inventories are slower than they were and others doing greater faster. the key is, we're not a jellyfish float wig the current. you want to be a boat with a motor and don't say, well, current's going one mile to the left. now the boat can't drive. you're supposed to be a valley creation. we think of ourselves as a business that builds businesses and now have 250 people at my herm. just bought a pes from perk and elmer. not only seven private equity people and doing those companies since 13 years ago, went up to $20 billion in value, as we bought it, ten operating pa partners working on analysis how to improve them. a very, railroad large amount of

things we hope to improve on. if we achieve that that makes the value basis points higher or lower. >> steve swartzman at blackstone told leaders of his companies more than a year and a half ago they should be battening down the hatches trying to prepare for a storm that was coming, because everybody thought the economy was going to go into recession. the companies all kind of did just that. have they been through the preparation time? are they ready and are your companies ready for what may be around the corner next year? >> the worst, i have a lot of respect for blackstone and steve schwartzman as well. the worst pinch point for private equity in recent years was september of '21 before anyone was talking about it. you could -- inflation was hitting and no one admitting it in the public policy world. supply chains super tight. the same way we worked with our companies to get them through covid we worked with them to get through pricing, supply chain

availability. that's generally all caught up. the margins -- also whether you do well or not in this economy, if you're a good company that can pass on price and hold share, you've caught up. if anything, there's deflation. actual -- different parts to build inflation. labor costs are still rising. health care costs come in late, but like the ingredients for a tin can on a shelf in a truck may be going lower. not up at the moment. it's not a one-word answer. we batten down -- always battening down the hatches but the real effort started september '21. >> october of '81. >> yeah. >> when i started in training at merrill lynch. retail broker. you started private equity? >> just looked up your net worth. you have a jet. >> i do not. >> $2.6 billion? i'm excited flying in a pod. for me being in a pod on united, why did i go into retail

brokerage, steve? why didn't you talk to me at the same time? >> first of all, i don't own a jet and don't oeb a hewn a heli >> you could! >> and, ausll right, my wife doesn't own either. my old firm owned a gulfstream jet. used to own that in my old firm. >> and i own -- >> thank you. thanks. >> save you from this. that's okay. thank you. he does not need to be saved. we do. coming up on the other side of this, a special interview with massachusetts senator elizabeth warren, but next, we're going to take stock of a busy advertising from the flight of companies from x. emerging channels you may not have thought of. ceos of the trade desk will in us when "squawk box" comes right back. ♪

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welcome back to "squawk box" this morning. look at futures. got red on the screen on the dow. down about 35 points. nasdaq looking to open higher. five points higher. s&p 500 up about five. recent flight of advertisers from elon musk's x has gotten a

lot of oxygen. our next guest says the real story isn't what's happening on social media sites filled with news or generated content. it's what happening at emerging ad gems like connected television, read streaming here? also digital audio. joining us, jeff green, ceo of firmed trade desk. jeff, interesting. watching social media and the very volatile back and forth about who's pulling their ads from where. you say don't even worry about that. there's something else much more interesting? >> yeah. many forget that supply and demand has always been biased towards advertisers. so what has happened in the last few years especially because so many consumers moved into streaming, is that advertisers have more choices. so as user-generated content has more problems. more hate speech, more problems. >> you don't know what will happen? >> yeah. people can say anything generated by users and policing that is hard and there's more

and more users. more and more dollars moved to premium content where the real value is. ctv, connective television the most advertisers in the world coupled with audio and more choices than ever. often moving from those platforms into that, into streaming or connected television, because it's premium content. what we help them do. >> is elon right? very vexed by disney and other advertisers pulling off of the, off of x saying they're killing the platform? >> as her writthey write killin platform, if all advertisers leave, yes, that's a problem. they go where the most value is and brands are safe. >> not a crazy thing for an ar advertiser to do? i want to promote brand safety and not drawn into a conflict? >> yeah. i think advertisers need to be

safe. and what i don't think is often understood is how fragile brands are, and how fragile the ecosystem can be and how important it is they're in front of content they really believe in or care about, and that the options are greater than they've ever been, because there's more streaming content and that there's ever been. every time we go to party, a bunch of assignments what to watch. more to advertise against creating more options for advertisers. now's a time to court them. not arguing with them. >> if social media sites are losers, who are the winners? >> winners are those streaming. audio is a winner. i think spotify can be a winner as they continue to grow. >> and laying off more and more employees. struggling. >> look what they reported in last earnings and opportunity in advertising i think that's their way out of any struggles they're having. and because of the fact that right now google's been a bit more aggressive on issues around

privacy. i think that creates opportunity for premium content owners to advertise even more. >> i thought ad sales at meta and some other social media sites were actually doing pretty well? those are ads you can directly impact and the algorithms there are pretty good? >> yeah. i do think meta does a phenomenal job, a lot in their investments of a.i. very good for targeting and relevance, but you still have a user generated content problem. in instagram and facebook and on youtube and twitter. very different from the premium world of streaming and professionally-produced content like in a spotify. >> what do numbers show in terms where the ad dollars are going? >> in the last -- so last quarter we reported 25% growth. year on year of comps also 20 to 30% where there comps were negative 4, negative 5%. open internet growing much faster than we call the wall of -- >> you say "we" who?

>> trade desks and open internet. growing much faster. >> on what base? >> on our -- >> what base number? talking about growing 25% is easy to do when you have small numbers. ad dollars are pretty big when talking meta and other places? >> agreed, but negative 4%. negative is negative. >> what base numbers? 4% on what? >> anybody can look at our earnings. look at -- >> tell me. >> i'm not going to go into specific numbers today, but -- >> why? if anybody can look it up, just tell me. what are we talking about, numbers? >> half a billion dollars. >> okay. so that's what i mean. these companies used to have much greater growth than we talked about smaller numbers there, too? >> sure. sure. but -- if you're looking at growth, right, and where we're heading directionally, to me open internet as whole put it all together all of those

companies that represent premium content and put all of those together that is growing faster than the wall of gardens. and those numbers are comparable putting them all together. talking about just us as a company, we're a plox proxy for entire ecosystem, and growing faster. >> look directly at -- do you mean netflix will grow faster? talking peacock? which streamers are you talking about with real content? >> yeah. i think the streamers are a part of that open internet. put that together, that's included in that. so i do think the collection of them are growing faster than the long gardens and numbers support that collectively. not just the trade desk, also growing faster than any of those individual companies. >> jeff, thanks. >> thank you. coming up, massachusetts senator elizabeth warren joins us, an interview about, what? currency, anti-semitism on college campuses. the viability of a wealth tax in

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dow off 30 points. nasdaq higher, 62 points. s&p up about 6 points and news here on gamestop. becky? right. shares of gamestop actually hit in the pre-market. third quarter revenue from original meme stock name bewlee the street expected. expenses fell and the company broke even on an adjusted basis on bottom line, but analysts expecting a loss. the first gamestop report since ryan cohen became chairman and ceo in late september. in the past, cohen made an aggressive push towards ecommerce, but has backtracked on plans somewhat lately. that stock now down by about 7.6%. and amazon's ceo andy saying consumers are still opening wallets, but being more careful. jazzy gave an update how americans are spending on "mad money" last night and how delivery is bolsters growth at amazon. >> consumables business, growth

rate there is extraordinary. in significant part because we've been able to speed up delivery so much in the last year. so when you can get items to people same day or next day at the latest, they end up considering you for a lot more purchases. some of the items, more discretionary items, laptops or electronics or phones, people are being more careful and taking a less expensive unit and growing at a faster rate in those areas than you see the rest of the segment, but more timid than in the past a. good year for shares of amazon. they're up about 73%. find out what? deliver more than fedex do? notice how the delivery drivers operate? >> they're fast. >> i have a lot of -- maybe it's, like, nobody gives you power? you can take it. they -- they stop in the middle of the road and get out and take packages up. >> they're on the clock.

>> seen them at night i'm driving along and he's parked on the other side of the road, and headlights here. so i almost was going to go to the right of him, because like a little foggy and rainy, but he's on that side of the street and i realize last minute that he's on that, i mean, they do -- their nuts. they're crazy, but getting it done. >> yes. coming up, jobless claims. >> ever notice it? >> and canvas interview with senator elizabeth warren. we'll be right back.

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welcome back to "squawk box." rick santelli here live cme hq awaiting breaking news of the morning. our december 2nd ending week for initial claims. november 25th continuing claims. always weak in arrears and numbers are flashing. 220,000 on initial claims, exactly as expected. that follows 218,000. the most recent memorable number was 211,000. that was the third week in november. that was the second lightest going back all the way to september. now, if we consider continuing

claims last week at a two-year high, they moved back under 1.9 million. 1 million 861,000 is the number. so we move from a two-year high back down on continuing claims, and that is something to pay attention to. we see that yields are going to potentially move a little higher on that as they have. they came in a little hotter, and if you recall, of course, yesterday, we made a new pass at the lowest levels since the 5% test of one session for about a nanosecond. we clipped off 412 yesterday. we clipped off 410 today, and if you look at the dollar yen having big moves. certainly seems, though, meeting coming up for bank of japan is garnering a lot more interest. maybe a sea change in policy, and, of course, joe, i noticed your conversation this morning with the six important issues

that make something a good monetary store of value. i really enjoyed that, by the way, and many of us have debated the one aspect that may be a possibility to change that dynamic. acceptability. back to you, joe. >> yeah. time will tell, i guess. i don't know when something is, is bona fide. you remember paul crudeman said the internet won't last longer than a fax machine. i think -- is he still saying that? i think probably finally said, maybe it is more important than a fax machine. thanks, rick. steve liesman joins us now with more. a number tomorrow, steve. got that right? just got claims today? >> a rigid number. there is a number. it's an interesting number, because it's a number that's pretty hot. 190 the consensus, joe. i think you're right to flag it, because i wonder if the market is prepared for being right, which is usually not the case.

it usually is prepared for the konnan seconsensus number. after that people don't know what to do with. interesting. goldman writes a full report about adp. don't follow it sticking with goldman's number. it comes in hot again. claims today, kind of well-behaved at an upper level sort of. not a surge. not surprised to see continuing claims falling. a little fallout in that continuing claims number, which, you remember, delayed a week from the strikes that happened. people actually -- strikers didn't count on the claims but the other places that lost jobs, factories, may have come back to work after settling that. i want to talk about one other thing, joe. look through the process by which the stock and bond market have worked together, you talking about this last hour. i want to show this graphically. stocks rallied when bond yields fell and they fell when bond yields rose. but then zoom in just a little

closer, that disconnect -- disconnected now. look now, all of a sudden stocks are kind of down-ish while yields are still falling. i don't know the reason for the disconnect. i guess at some point as the economy cools you start to worry how much it's cooling? maybe the market rallied a lot and it's just a pause before new money comes in and as we talked about stronger hands come forward here? but i just want to point that out, that what has been good for the stock market in terms of lower bond yields is, these last several days has not been the case. i'm personally not sure why. >> you're right. i mean, there come as time when, you know, it's what's driving interest rates down or what's allowing them to fall, you know? it's going to come -- a good news/bad news thing. sooner or later, it's bad going into a sharp slowdown or something that causes the fed to -- then, you know what you can say? then you got lower rates,

multiples go up. what you don't have in earnings you kget in multiple expansion. >> right. idea from goldman, look at how much cuts, how much in the way of cuts, are built into the market right now. about 130 basis points for next year. that you only get there if there's a recession. >> yeah. >> it's pretty -- the market is looking at cuts almost every meeting. you know, in the context of an economy that's still growing in trend, it's hard to think about the fed cutting that much. as i reported in the 7:00 hour, you know, rick rieder, runs an awful lot of money thinks the market is over its skis on the short end of the curve here. >> well, and -- you can limit it to, it's an election year. so letting them -- the economy slow to that extent in an election year, maybe that's why they're expecting cuts? i know they're not political, but seems like they get on the

same page at times, depending on -- just happens every election year. doesn't it? >> actually -- i'm going to give awe new report on this that shows the fed does not really pay much attention to election years in terms when it raises rates. >> well if they want -- who would want that job anyway? maybe they don't want it. don't want to be -- i wouldn't. right? see you later. >> that's the point. >> yeah. >> that's the point. coming up next, massachusetts senator elizabeth warren is going to join us live to talk about recent antitrust piws, message from bank ceos on catol hill and so much more. we're coming right back.

they must be migrating. we're going to jamaica. i really want to see that. i wanna go to jamai... where they make jam. ok, fine. come here. [ grunting ] woo-hoo. why are we the only birds heading this way? where's your mother? ahh! that is not your mother.

stay close to me and everything will be alright. [ gasps ] [ gulp ] oh, i'm ok. welcome back to "squawk box." ceos of the biggest lawmakers on capitol hill. one point massachusetts democratic senator elizabeth warren asked jpmorgan's ceo jamie dimon why crypto is a part of rogue nations. here's the response. >> always deeply opposed to crypto, bitcoin et cetera. you pointed out, tax avoidance, terrorists, tax avoiders if i were the government i'd shut it down. >> curious what was going through your mind when you heard jamie dimon's response?

>> when jamie dimon and iare in exactly the same place it's because we have serious problems in this country, and that is a part of the financial system is being used by terrorists, by drug traffickers, by rogue nations in order to launder money, move money through the system and finance their illegal activities. but keep in mind on this one. it wasn't just jamie dimon. we had a long, long table with the ceos of all of the largest banks in this country, and when i asked the question, should the rules that apply to their banks and, by the way, also apply to stock brokers and gold traders and credit card companies and credit unions and the other financial tractors, should the same rules to deal with drug trafficking, financing and rogue nation financing, should the same rules be put in place every single one of them said, absolutely. so what this tells me is it's

time for congress to act. >> let me ask you, beyond congress acting, there's a big question mark over whether the s.e.c. will act on whether, for example, a bitcoin etf will ultimately get approved expanding access for americans all over the country potentially to invest in bitcoin. you probably lost the price of bitcoin, it's risen quite materially even in the past months in large part of the backup of that expectation. you know gary gensler well. do you have expectation that would take place and would you sm support it? >> i wouldn't speculate on kra the s.e.c. ask doing. an important distinction. s.e.c. principally is talking about regulation, the kind of monitoring of the plat forms, the markets, make sure adequate consumer protection and issue that is built in to the dna of the s.e.c. it's an important thing to do. it's absolutely something they should do. when i'm talking about, i'm

talking about law enforcement aspect. not over at regulatory agencies. what i'm talking about is part of the system that makes sure that banks are not being used for terrorist financing, for example. you know, we have something called bank secrecy act, which is -- >> right. >> -- how banks are required to monitor certain kinds of transactions that go through the system. it was written in the 1970s. following 9/11. law enforcement folks went back, looked at what had happened. figured out how the financing made it through the system and that's the last time that congress updated the bank secrecy act. what we need to could is we need to update is again, because there's a new threat out there. it's crypto, and it is used for terrorist financing. it is being used for drug trafficking. north korea is using it to pay for about half of its nuclear weapons program. we can't allow that to continue.

>> senator, let me ask you this. we had a guest on earlier in the broadcast who i argue is a bitcoin proponent, if you will, and he said, look. jpmorgan just paid $5 billion in fines over anti-money laundering and other activities that the government thought were either illegal or illicit, if you will, and how should we think about bitcoin as it relates to u.s. dollar cash and how. gets moved around? >> well, i'm afraid i don't quite understand the argument. if the point is we need tighter money laundering rules or better enforcement for all of the banks, fine. let's make the case. let's go do it, but that's not an excuse for saying, in the meantime, terrorists can use bitcoin in order to finance their operations. in order to raise money around the world. we can't just say, oh, then that

makes it okay for north korea to use bitcoin to help pay for its nuclear weapons program. or for iran to be able to move money around or for russia to avoid sanctions. this is about saying, the same rules that apply to everyone else need to apply to crypto and well. >> senator, pivot the conversation a moment. fascinating case that seen in the supreme court this week with a huge implications potentially on a wealth tax in the future getting at the issue whether the u.s. government constitutionally it ktax unrealized gains. a proponent of this for some time. mechanics may have an impact. i wanted your thinking and understanding of how you're looking at that case and has it, how it maybe relates to a wealth tax in the future? >> part of the point i think we have to look at is that the very, very, very wealthy have

now figured out that they don't actually have to have any income in order to do everything they want to do, in order to have access to their wealth. look at elon musk. when he decided that he wanted to buy twitter, he said, you know, i'll just show the bank that i have this bucket of stock, and he said i'm going to take all my tesla stock and put it over here and look what happens. he can borrow against that and then can make the purchase of twitter. the billionaires can buy their yachts, can finance their, you know, 87-room houses, all on the notion that they never cashed out. they never sold any, and that creates a terrible problem in this country, because it means the people that are paying taxes are boston public schoolteachers instead of the wealthiest people in this country.

>> so i want to try something out on you. what do you think about the idea of rather than a wealth tax per se, saying that anybody who's going to take a loan against their assets of some number, we can make up the number. make it a big number. a loan collateralized against assets at some level, that money gets taxed? >> what you're doing is driving in the right direction. because you figured out a way the billionaires finance their lavish lifestyles without paying any taxes. >> but isn't that potentially a fairer way, those who look at fairness -- for those that look at the fairness argument saying, look, i realize unrealized gains on realized gain. these are equivalent of that. let's tax that? >> it is the minimalist approach to it and it certainly moves in the right direction, but let me make my point. you know, if we just said, if you've got more than $50 million

in assets, and we put in place a two cent tax on your wealth. by the way, people pay taxes, pay property taxes all the time on unrealized gains. you pay your property taxes on your home. but a two cent wealth tax. think what that would mean in this country right now? it would mean we could provide universal child care for every one of our babies, put much more money into our public school system, provide free post-high school technical two and four-year college, cancel all student loan debt and still have a lot of money left over. the very wealthiest in this country are paying only a tiny, tiny fraction of their wealth, while ordinary americans, middle-class families, firefighters and teachers, are paying a much bigger share, and that's just fundamentally unfair. in a democracy, progressive

taxation means that those who are wealthier end up paying more on their taxes and that's not what we have right now. >> senator warren, it's an income tax that we have right now, and i think the idea of a wealth tax, throws a lot of people off. you can point to the idea of real estate taxes, but in reality, your home is not assessed, re-assessed every year paying higher and higher prices on it. when you do have towns that get overly aggressive on real estate taxes, end up pushing out the older people no longer working every day and drive senior citizens out. that happens in our area, too. things go to extremes like that. i understand an income tax. i understand the way of -- can i just finish quickly and then save the time back over. >> sure. >> i understand getting at the idea these wealthy people are living off things and andrew's idea is a good one. if you're using your equity as something you're living off of as income, you should be taxed

on that. the idea just a wealth tax in itself, really, upends things. say we're going to only go after $50 million and above but we all know income taxes started that way, too, and it's gotten to be a bigger and bigger part of everybody's number, and the idea of an unrealized gain i never see being taxed is anathema. doesn't at all seem fair and in way, shape or form and seems impractical to figure how to actually figure it out. >> let me be clear. as i syd, i think andrew is moving in the right direction. i'm just making the case overall, because the system is no longer fair. when we first put an income tax in place, remember, he were marginal rates vastly higher than today for the very wealthiest in this country. the idea was the richer you are, the total number of dollars you pay will be more, because your income is higher. so you want to get a fraction of that, that seems fair ay c cros

the board. that's been stood on its head. so the people paying highest percentage of wealth are middle-class families, and the wealthiest, the billionaires in this country, are paying virtually nothing. jeff bezos lower marginal tax rate than a boston public school teacher. that is fundamentally wrong. the idea that you say, oh, i'm worried that billionaires won't be represented in congress and taxes will get out of hand? give me a break. it's the billionaires who just got the tax cut from donald trump that's turned out to be, what, nearly $3 trillion. most of that money went to millionaires and billionaires. it made the tax system even worse. want to have a democracy? it's got to be that everybody pays a fair share. that fair share should have something to do with the wealth

you've got. right now we're putting that burden on the middle class and giving billionaires a free ride. i think that's wrong. >> senator, i want to touch on a couple other topics. a lot of people saw this yesterday and, to be honest, some were horrified by it. three of the major presidents of universities were at a hearing where they were asked if genocide to the jews was something within the code of conduct and should be allowable on campuses. across the board those university presidents, including one from harvard and one from penn, effectively equivocated and said that it was. they have come back and gone online and tried to take it back or say something else. it's raising lots of questions about what kind of speech should be allowed on campus. there's big questions about the

role of the progressive left in terms of some of that speech that's taking place on campuses today. i wanted you to weigh in on it. >> advocating for genocide is fundamentally wrong. full stop. we just can't have this. here's where i really worry right now, the -- we need to be an america where we can disagree with each other. we can argue and talk about policies and talk about outcomes and we can do it in a vigorous way. what's started to happen is we've unleashed hate in this country. that is wrong. i talked to jewish moms back in massachusetts who tell me that they're afraid to take their toddlers to an activity at the synagogue because they're worried the synagogue will be targeted. i talked to a palestinian mom last week who said she's afraid for her children to go outside.

people feel threatened. war in the middle east is something that's being felt personally here at home. i understand that. but we cannot let it fuel hate. it's on all of us. it's on all of us. >> what do you ascribe to some of what we're seeing on college campus, especially the anti-semitism that's so blatant. it's so surprising. i'm an american jew. i feel like i've woken up to something i didn't appreciate. i don't know if it was always there and under the surface. the fact that it's now allowed to surface in this way -- i think a lot of people looking at this say there's a hypocrisy to it all. in so many other ways we've tried to protect -- i believe the progressive left has tried to protect what might be described as marginalized

communities, minorities and other things, but when it comes to this, for some reason it doesn't resonate in the same way. >> there's no place for anti-semitism on college campuses or any place in our country. there's no place for any anti-palestinian sentiment on college campuses or anywhere in our country. hate is wrong. calling out all attached to a single group is wrong. >> what did they learn in colleges, senator, that allowed them to think that if it's levelled at jewish people it's okay? >> it's not. >> the same people that were marching with black lives matter, some of them that would go every day and march for that, are now saying genocide to the jews. how did that happen on liberal

college campuses? >> calling for genocide is wrong. >> you keep saying that, but it came from somewhere. you don't think the progressive left has any culpability in driving us to this point, senator? >> i think what has happened is that people feel the pain of the middle east and they feel it on both sides very personally. i talk to israelis who have family members that they have lost, family members who were taken hostage. i've held people when they've cried. i've also talked with palestinians who are frantically searching for family members from a distance, searching for family members in gaza. this is something that people are feeling here. for that to give rise to hatred of a whole group is wrong. we need to fight back against it.

it is so important at this moment to say that we can disagree with each other, we can argue with each other about the appropriate policies for the united states -- >> do you think -- >> it's not an excuse for hating a group of people. >> senator, do you think the leaders of the universities, the three you saw, should still be in their jobs? you've been outspoken about other people and their jobs. i'm curious about these people. >> they have all said they were wrong. if you can't lead -- if you can't stand up and say what is right and wrong very much in the extreme cases, and these are extreme cases, you have a problem. >> senator warren, we appreciate you joining us. happy holidays. we're right back after this.

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let's take a final look at where the market stands right now. the futures up by about 12. s&p futures up by 114. the dow and s&p down three sessions in a row. also been watching what's

happening with the ten-year notes. the ten-year yield is at 4.15%. still below 4.2%. oil prices have been hovering around $70 a barrel. right now it's $70.05. that does it for us. it's thursday. you know what tomorrow is. >> jobs friday. >> "squawk on the street" begins right now. good thursday morning. welcome to "squawk on the street." i'm david faber at the new york stock exchange. jim cramer, there he is on the other half of your screen. he's in settle fresh from his exclusive interview with amazon ceo. carl has the morning off after the cnbc premiere of "cities ofu