>> obviously do. way overweight energy, says rick sapperstein. >> josh brown? >> toast. not because i love someone to hand me a tip when they hand me a muffin, but i think we'll see a good quarter. so i'm long here. >> "the exchange" is now. ♪ ♪ scott, thank you very much. i'm tyler mathisen in for kelly evans. here's what's ahead this hour. the market fixated on the macro, but that's a good thing says one of our guests, helping to set up into earnings, which he says couldn't be better. he's ready to push his cash to work. he'll tell us where. plus, the street underestimating apple once again. that's the gist of the new move with bank of america. and some five years after we works implosion, adam newman takes the wraps off a new

venture. deidre bosa will speak es collusively to him. we begin with dom chu with the numbers. hi, dom. >> so what we got right now is a market that's floating right about near session highs right now. it's been a relatively calm trade compared to yesterday after that hotter than expected cpi report. today's report came in slightly cooler than expected, and the stock market is reacting. you can see the s&p 500 is up about 0.2 of 1%. right just below session highs. the dow up about 1/3 of 1%. you can see there, down 115 points, 38,347. the nasdaq up about three quarters of 1%, 117 points to the upside, the last trade there 16,287. again, at the lows of the session, the s&p was down roughly 22 points. also, that interest rate trade we talked about yesterday, the two-year yield as seen by some traders as more of a proxy

for what the fed could do with interest rates over the next several months. right now, the yields are just about flat on the session. we did see some volatility around that ppi number. thattwo-year yield just below 4.69%. it pushed towards 5% at one point before the numbers came out. got as low as 4.29%. so a volatile trade there, but holding near highs we saw yesterday. and we'll call it a takeover thursday story, that's alpine and immune sciences up 36%. what this does do for vertex's biggest acquisition to date is give them more access to a kidney disease treatment platform. so a big move on the merger markets. back over to you, tyler. >> thank you very much. stocks are stabilizing after a ppi, a measure of wholesale

prices, rose 0.2% in march, less than expected, providing some relief after the big jump in consumer prices yesterday. one of our guests says the market's fixation could not be better. joining us now are my guests. welcome to both of you. andrew, if i'm understanding you correctly, you -- your theory is that people are so focused on rates, the macro picture, that they're going to be positively surprised after this period of sort of consolidation, when earnings start to come out. that's going to power the market higher. >> exactly. we have had a 3 1/2, 4% pullback on macro issues. but yes, we get thebacks tomorrow and next week is a lull. but the week after that is really earnings season starts in full. and i think it's going to be

pretty good. what you don't want to happen, tyler, is the market to be red hot into earnings, where expectations are really high, and then if companies meet, then the stocks go down. but that's not what we're seeing now. we're so fixated on the macro issues that people have forgotten that earnings are around the corner. and then the bloackout windows, companies can buy back stocks, and that's a big driver of the market. >> does history confirm this thesis that you're putting forward here, that if the market has its eye on one ball and the other ball comes in, it's going to move higher? >> what we know is kind of how a stock's done recently, has a perverse, you know, inverse relationship. so if i look at a stock like nvidia, let's say, the stock just dropped 100 points. the stock's actually not done very well the last few weeks. so kind of the setup is good.

so that the data suggests that you always want to be wary of stocks that have done very, very well recently. >> how does andrew's thesis strike you, number one? and number two, what are you looking for, for interest rates as an interest rate strategist and theorist, what are you looking for here now that we have gotten back-to-back inflation reports, one hotter than expected, one maybe a little cooler than expected? >> yeah, so i think andrew sets the stage for the strong economy from an equity perspective and earnings perspective. and from an inflation perspective, what you have seen is, you know, inflation is turning out to be a lot more stickier than investors anticipated and the fed antic anticipated, and that really means that the fed is going to have to keep policy on hold, perhaps for the remainder of this year, as they navigate a bumpy road through inflation.

so we got ppi today, which was on the positive side after a really, you know, i would say an upside surprise to cpi yesterday with 0.4% on headline, as well as core. so i think this is -- we're looking at a picture where inflation is going to take a lot longer to normalize, and the fed is probably going to have to keep policy on hold for a lot longer than the market was anticipating. >> we'll come back to that thought, because it's a very provocative one, a little bit of an outlier, compared with where most strategists were six, ten months ago. meantime, 30-year auction of bonds, rick santelli has the results for us. hi, rick. >> hi, tyler. indeed, this is the third trunch of the treasury off of 119 billion. it's a reopening, second time, adding to an issue. what was the yield?

4.671%. onebasis point tail. the one issue mafrket was tradig 4.66%. my grade for the demand at 1:00 eastern for this 30-year bond auction by investors, a c minus. better than yesterday's tens. there was one bright spot, it wasn't the pricing, and if you looked at the bid-to-cover, the indirect bidders, or the dealers in each case, it was the worst numbers save november of last year. so not a huge amount of time, but definitely in the wrong direction. the one bright spot is direct bidders at 18.3% was above the 18% ten auction average, the best since september of '23. yields pretty much didn't move on that, but that isn't the point. the point is, whether you look in fives, sevens, tens, 20s, or 30s, all the yields are higher on the hotter than expected cpi.

we want to continue to monitor whether these long and mid-day returnees remain higher yield, lower in price versus yesterday, because that would mean fresh high yield closes for all those maturities over the last five months. back to you. >> rick santelli, thank you very much. let me go back to you and sort of pose a longish question. you know, if i look back six months ago, a lot of people who sat, maybe not including you, but a lot of people who sat in seats like yours, and the market more broadly, seemed to be predicting or discounting the possibility of as many as six interest rate cuts in 2024. you've now gone all the way to the possibility or probability of no interest rate cuts in 2024. why and how has that happened, and where were you on this issue six months ago? >> we were unfortunately on the wrong side of the equation coming into the year. we were on the count expecting

nearly six cuts for this year, and an expectation for a recession by the middle of the year. and that really hasn't panned out. the data has been extraordinary resilient. inflation remains high and sticky. so really, you look at corporations and corporate profitmargins, there's an extraordinarily resilient to higher interest rates. so what you're seeing right now is a decal brags, if you will, given the fact that inflation has remained high and sticky and growth is surprise to the upside. you're looking at above trend growth, growth for the first quarter, of 2% to 2.5%. so the momentum has continued in the first quarter, having, you know, and that's why we've had to recallbrate so much.

>> i appreciate your candor. one of the signs of intelligence is the ability to change your mind when the situation warrants. andrew, let me turn to you. can the market continue to move forward if interest rates don't move lower marketedly this year, and oh, by the way, what's your assumption on where markets will end the year? excuse me, interest rates will end the year? >> gosh, i'm a portfolio manager. i think it's -- as long as rates don't go substantially higher, i think the market can go higher and end of the year higher for a key reason. i've always said i hope there aren't six rate cuts. i said this all year, because if the fed can stay on hold and not have to cut, it means the economy is doing well. >> doing okay. >> and if the economy does well, remember, tyler, at the end of this year, we're going to be pricing off of next year's earnings. right now, the consensus is $277. if all i do is put this year's multiple, that gets you to mid

5,000s on the s&p. you can say the multiple is too high or earnings are too high. but as long as the fed is saying we have the ability to be patient, and that's what i'm hearing from companies. one of the benefits of a portfolio manager, all these companies are telling me business is good. that tells me earnings are going to come in, and where we're going to end the year, that puts $277 of earnings for next year on the table. >> you're not saying the fed doesn't matter, but you're almost saying it. >> i am. i would be very nervous, not that this is going to happen, if jay powell came out and say, we've got to cut. i go yuh-oh, he sees something don't see. >> the fact that -- >> we have the wherewithal to be patient is a good thing. >> thank you very much both very much. appreciate it. coming up, deidre bosa is sitting down with adam neumann

as he unveils his newest venture aiming to "transform the residential experience," but is it disruptive or just another real estate play disguised aztec? plus, wall street back at it again, according to bank of america, underestimating apple, despite its performance. the analyst on that call joins us next. "the exchange" is back after this. see you then.

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welcome back to "the exchange," everybody. nearly five years after we works implosion, adam neumann is back now in the spotlight unveiling his newest venture, called flow, and it aims to transform the residential experience.

he also har s backing for this venture with over $350 million. valuing the startup at $1 billion. adam neumann joins us now, along with deidre bosa who is in ft. lauderdale, florida for flow's initial launch. deidre? >> tyler, thank you very much. adam, sit nice to see you. thanks for welcoming us here for launch day. you're launching your new venture today, flow. i know you've been heads down over the last few years concentrating on developing it. i want to get into we work, which i know you're trying to buy back. but i thought we might just address the elephant in the room. some people might be surprised to see you on our screen again. what are you going to do differently this time around? >> first of all, thank you very much for coming down here to flow ft. lauderdale. it is an exciting day for us. but let's start with that. we built a global brand, we had

over 10,000 employees that were so passionate. we helped redefine a category in every single thing we did had to do almost anything and everything with community. i am the kind of person that learns more from their mistakes than from their successes. so all the great things we did in the past we're going to do again. then i had time to reflect. i'm so lucky to have my partners. for those of you that don't know, board meetings come to mind, and our bode ard room is exciting. they speak their mind, if you want them to or not. >> sothere's more debate? >> debate is an understatement. there are lively discussions that can go all over the place. they're a great partpartnership. >> do they hold you more accountable? >> everyone is holding everyone more accountable. i have the pleasure to work with them, and they are entrepreneurs.

it's one thing to have investors giving advice, but these are entrepreneurs that are peers. i've taken my time. we did not rush to launch this brand. we've been run thing business for the past two years. we built our operating systems, we built our technology, we rebuilt processes, we rebuilt a property management company. we did that to practice and test to see what works and what doesn't. this building you are in now is 95% full. other location is 96% full, and that was before the brand. >> so i want to get into flow. your mission, i'm going to read from your website, revolutionize the residential experience as a virtually integrated real estate owner/operator, and technology innovator. what does that mean? >> i'm not sure where you read that on the website, but it's actually more about coming to your higher self between you and

yourself, your neighbor, and the world. so our mission is actually bringing everybody together. what you read, i think, is from the bio, which is a little bit what we are doing. >> that accurate, though? >> extremely accurate. flow is an experience first, residential real estate company. we are vertically integrated. we have technology, operations, and we have the people that bring it all together. also, as you can see around you, design is a very important aspect of what we do. by bringing all of these things together, we had a theory two years ago that the buildings will become more valuable. the properties are just starting to show that, with much higher performance. vz >> are the buildings more valuable than when you bought them? >> this building you're sitting in has a 40% annual higher line than when we took over 18 months ago. >> does that mean you have

increased rents, rent growth? >> great question. we increased rent growth. ft. lauderdale, where we're at, rent has gone down 8%. so when people like being in a building, they stay. when people stay, it increases occupancy and the value. >> just to be clear, you are increasing value, and that's reflected in the value of the real estate that you own? >> so i'm going to answer it precisely, another lesson. i'm going to answer it very precisely. we have increased the net operating income of the building you're sitting in by over 40% since we took over 18 months ago. if you ask what it's worth, that's a different metric. but analyze how we're measuring it and the value of the building. you only know what a building is worth when you sell it. >> so what you're describing,

there's another word for it, it's purpose-built rentals. it is a large category already. it's not new, and it's not technology. so why is flow different? why are you calling flow a technology innovator? >> great question. we talked about partners. mark and ben are technology investors. >> now they're real estate investors also. >> is tesla a car company or tech company? i think we live in a world today where you can look at entire categories. if you are not leveraging technology to make things better, you are stuck in the past. the systems in real estate, technology systems in real estate were built in the '60s. they used to just be accounting systems. what they don't do is connect people. one of the ways in flow we make the building more valuable is we make the residents happier. one way is allow them to do business with open other, we allow them to do passion sharing. our residents, some of them are excited about giveback. we facilitate that.

so there's a lot of different things in the building. technology represents the backbone and front tent of rubbing all those things. >> you were showing me the app that launched today, but how is it disruptive? when i look at this purpose-built rental category, you have people like hudson yards or avolon bay doing something similar. so what is the actual technology that you're building that separates it from one of them? >> this is an interesting question. you can build a tech company that's only the backbone of real estate and build a branded operating company that's only the operation of the business. the only way you can build something integrated is if you do both at the same time. as far as i know, all the names you just said do not build their own technology. they rely on third parties. so if you are using an app in any of those, you would have one app for payments, another for parking, another for guest registration. you would be using three to five different systems to operate in the building. but more importantly is the

data. once you understandeverything that's happening in the building, you know who to connect to, you know how to price things. so we did our pricing algorithms. so i think the real answer is, we live in a world where we should look at things as entire categories. there is not, as far as i know, a branded residential real estate company for rentals in the u.s. today. >> not the ones i just named? >> we define brands differently. from your brand there is a television show. >> are we going to get a media offspring from this? >> i don't know, i don't know. >> let's go on, i guess. you're building all the technology in house, that is an important distinction. how many engineers do you employ? >> we've been very picky and lucky to have a great leadership team in engineering, another partnership. ben helped me choose the cto, so we took a long time to look at who we thought were the best

ctostnes in the country. ours is scott, who came from watts app. when we hired him, we decided to stick to the highest tech level possible. in your tech team, you have 50 people between engineers and product people and support all around. but we're recruiting aggressively and growing fast. >> you mentioned mark a few times, and this points to this broader ambition here. you talked about this, and he brought about this in his blog when he first invested in flow that. is, you want to help solve the housing crisis in america. there's a lack of supply, rising prices. how are you doing that? i wonder you scooping up 3,000 units, does that take supply off the market, or is the calculus changing for homeowners, is the dream still there and how are you fixing it? >> i think you are touching a very serious point i think we're part of a renter generation, just a little bit of numbers for the viewers. over 2/3 of 35-year-old and

younger in this country today are renters. they spend 34% on average of their total income on rent, which means you have the whole generation probably from age 20 to age40 is going to be a renter. buying a home has never been more expensive. so if that is the case, and as a young adult you're not able to buy a home and you want to rent, you want to get an elevated experience. you want a seamless experience. because we can't buy homes, i think for human beings, shelter is the most important thing we can have. if i don't have a home that i can feel proud of and i don't feel connected to, how can i connect to myself? i think we live in a world where we're so connected with our phones and devices, we've never been more disconnected. something else flow does, through events, through community, through everything that we've been doing a long time, we bring people together. it's funny, it doesn't take that much work to help people come together, because i think these experiences, as technology goes

forward, ai goes forward, as we progress, physical real-world connections have never been more important. >> you're also trying to give your renters a sense of ownership. is there a way that you can give them an actual ownership? i know that's something that other real estate companies, property developers are trying to do, fractional ownership is difficult, but are there any other ways? if people are renting, but the ultimate aim is to own a home, how do they get closer to that goal? >> i think the ultimate aim is to actually feel proud of where you live. if you own it, if you're renting it, sharing it, whatever it is, you want to feel at home and you want to feel connected as we said before. and we're on a journey of exploring all those different things. we're starting with loyalty programs, just to find a way to create a win-win scenario with the renter and ourselves. but if you want to solve this problem, you're going to want to, over time, get into all these challenges that you spoke

about. >> i don't want to let you go. they're talking about we work, because there's been news in the media, you're trying to buy the company back. have you made any progress? what is the status? >> most important thing, and i'm sorry i'm repeating myself, whatever i'm doing, i'm doing for flow. so adam is not trying to do anything. flow knows that the future of living and the future of work are really connected. it's a hybrid world. do i think people need to work from the office? i believe face-to-face connections are important. but different people are going to work in different ways. so for flow, exploring wework made a lot of sense, so we're exploring. >> can i ask you why you would like to buy back wework? it's in dire financial situation. in january, they lost $150,000 in january. why do you want it back? >> even though i don't know the numbers by heart, wework's name

is $2 billion. >> one month. >> one month would have to be north of $150 million a month. put that number aside, i don't know the exact numbers. as i said, the future of living integrates work into it. it makes sense for flow to consider to do it through wework. if that works out, excellent. if it doesn't work out, you're going the have to find a way to connect no matter what. >> ifi could wave a magic want and say you have control right now, what would you do to fix wework? does it need fixing? >> i think people confuse about wework, it's only declared bankruptcy in the u.s., not globally. wework is very profit like in israel, india, and a lot of european cities. if i were to wave the magic want, i would take the things that i just spoke about flow, our values of give and grow, we talk a lot about flow, about giving. giving is receiving. our residents, they are very

excited about giveback. our employees are excited about giveback. >> you did that with wework, as well. >> we did a lot of it, but i feel like in flow, we're taking the best of the best and putting that in the dna on the first day. that's the big difference. s i'll take the best things from flow, from giveback and values and integrate them into wework that will involve the problem. >> adam neumann, thank you very much for spending time with us today. >> thank you very much. >> tyler, i'll hand it back over to you. >> deidre, thank you very much, deidre. let's get some reaction from two folks familiar with the world of startups and venture capital. welcome to both of you. gentlemen, i'm going to confess that as i listened to that, my skepticism antenna were high.

i wonder, duncan, what you heard there? i heard a lot of high concept verbiage built around what is fundamentally to me around a residential real estate concept. >> he's a great promoter, and a good thinker. and he did make one comment that resonated positive with me, which is he learned from his wework mistakes. but fundamentally, wework is a real estate work. it's not a tech play. i think the market has figured that out. the same thing with flow. it's a very interesting idea, but it's largely a real estate deal. so i thought if you're going to buy wework, you might restructure the real estate side, maybe split the technology part away from the real estate

part. that might catch a bid. but what he said on the call was, they need to be integrated like tesla. so he's going to go with what he's going to go with. he might get a bid from a bid sovereign wefalth fund, or some large growth. i think in general, they won't touch this. >> would you put money into it, duncan? >> no, no. >> all right, there you go. dan, let me turn to you. i heard phrases that this is about coming to your higher self. it is about connecting people. heard that one before. passion sharing, giving back, seamless systems, pricing algorithms. >> i don't know. >> to duncan's point, maybe it's a genius marketer, a genius conceptualizer, but in the end, what is it? >> i felt like i was living five or six years ago. there was so much deja vu from what adam was saying here to

what he was saying at wework. if you replace "home" or "apartment" with co-working space, it was the same argument. deidre got into this a little bit. when she pushed on the point why is this not a real estate play, and his response why it was a tech play because they have an app, his argument was, mark and ben come to our board meetings, that's not a compelling reason. if lebron james started coming to axios' board meetings, that doesn't turn us into a basketball team. so i felt like i was listening to wework 2.0. maybe he has learned from the lessons, but the community stuff, i just don't really see it as being that different than what you see in other tech enabled apartment buildings. you need some of this in residences, but the differentiator is usually location and price. >> exactly. i get the idea that there will

be a seamless system, your parking, your access, your entry, your bill paying, payments can be handled in a lovely technology package. but that feels like a feature of what is fundamentally a place to live and places to live get valued and rents go up based, as you say, on price and location, desirable views, convenience to local amenities and so forth, right, dan? >> yeah. i agree. look, my father recently moved into a retirement home in california. a lot of things adam is referring to, that retirement home has. he has an app that opens the garage door and gets him in the building, and he can order food from the cafeteria from the dining hall. grant it, different market, different target demographic, but those are features. >> gentlemen, thank you very much. we have to leave it there. we appreciate your time today. now to julia for a cnbc news update. tyler, major u.s. airline

and aviation unions have urged the white house to pause approvals of more flights between china and the u.s. over concerns of china's anti-competitive policies. this is after the u.s. department of transportation said chinese airline carriers could boost their weekly round trip flights to the u.s. to 50, beginning at the end of march. the white house awarded $830 million in grants to fortify the nation's infrastructure against climate change. the money will fund projects across 37 states that are particularly impacted by extreme weather. and the funds come from the bipartisan infrastructure law that was passed in 2021. and instagram is testing new features that make it harder for potential scammers to force teens into sending nude photos to export money from them. the features would blur the photos and let users know if they're interacting with someone engaged in extortion. this comes as meta faces wrongful death law stutsuits ab

how its platforms have allegedly harmed young users. >> thank you very much. apple on track for its fourth straight week of losses, but one analyst still sees it rallying more than 30%, and says the street is underestimating apple's pricing power and margin. he'll join us to make his case. and shares of amazon, record high moments ago. first new high since 2021. $188.94 there, as we go to break. here's a look at markets with the dow turning positive in the past couple of moments, erasing a 264-point loss. we'll be rightacafr is bk teth. the future is not just going to happen. you have to make it. and if you want a successful business, all it takes is an idea, and now becomes the future

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>> >> welcome back to "the exchange." apple shares higher today, but down nearly 12% this year, due, as it faces a spending slowdown and china challenges, also playing catchup in the ai race. our next guest says the street has things wrong, underestimating apple's margin. our guest is a senior i.t. analyst. welcome. good to have you with us. take us through the history there and explain why you think wall street is getting it wrong,

specifically with respect to apple's ability to create good, solid margin and not have it shrink. >> yeah, good afternoon. thanks for having me, tyler. look, i think looking at the history is really instructive. if we go back to 2018, what we really saw was that the estimates for 2023 for apple's gross margins were essentially flat at 39%, which is where the gross margins were back in 2018. fast forward to today, and apple is reported a 44% gross margin for the year instead of the 39%. so 3500 bases points. when you think about apple, that's an imminence amount of profitability that people got wrong. as we stand here today, we're, again, looking at a few years out and gross margins, guess what they are, they're flat. but we see several drivers for gross margins to move higher,

both on the product side and on the services side. it's a really opportune time. >> take us inside that thought, which is to say, how will they do that? what are those drivers? >> absolutely. so, yes. on the product side, tyler, it's really interesting, right? apple has built this amazing semiconductor franchise, and they're in the process of making more and more of the semiconductor content by themselves. the next big one that is going to happen for apple is really the modem chip, and when they take that internal, that should save $10 to $20 per iphone. when we add up 250 million iphones, it gets material. we estimate 160 basis points on average gross margin improvement on the product side alone for the iphones coming from that or from overall product revenue will be about 100 basis points

just from one insourcing of the modem chip, right? so think about all the projects that they have going on, including on other devices that have done so much custom development on the silicone side. that's all coming to bear in terms of gross margins. we noticed this in laptops and across the -- in air pods, everywhere. their semiconductor content is driving that margin structure higher. as you look out a few years, when it starts to kick in on the iphone, that's going to be very meaningful. >> you also see a potential on the services side for increasing margin, as well as pricing power, which is increase margin obviously. >> right, yeah. it's really interesting. this is the area that i think there's very little focus on the services side for gross margins. it's very easy to kind of say, well, they're operating around 70% gross margin. that's probably the right number. if you think about apple's strategy, what they are trying

to do is lure the ultimate cost of delivery of their services, which is the main area of growth for them over the next decade. you have an install base of a billion plus iphone users, 2 billion plus apple devices out there. there's only about 300 million paying subscribers today. so the relative cost of the infrastructure is still quite low. if you look over the next five to ten years, the cost of that is going to start to really become much, much larger. so what is apple going to do to offset that? there's two real things, one, they're going to in source cloud providers. the second thing is build their own server chips, and once they do that, they can lower the cost of operating their own data centers, as well. so we see really big opportunity on both sides. >> have to leave it there. thank you for making a clear argument. appreciate it. all right.

coming up, we'll head to colorado to explore how two cities have used the rocky mountain lifestyle to create high growth business centers and the growing pains that come along with that expansion. that is next. (sirens) [due at target in 5!] copy that. make a hard left down the alley. network's got you covered. [please confirm requesting back-up.] -changing route. -go. roadblock ahead. ...back up, back up... reverse! reverse! next level moments, we're 30 seconds out. need the next level network. [north corridor, hurry!] -coming through! -or 3, let's go. the network more businesses choose. transplant received. at&t business. when you need to prepare for unpredictable adventures... (gasp) you need weathertech. [hot dog splat.] laser measured floorliners front and rear. [drink slurp and splat.] (scream) seat protector to save the seats. [honk!]

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welcome back. we've got a news alert here. market flash. here's a globe life, halted for volatility. as the insurer faces scrutiny from the short seller firm fuzzy panda. the stock is far and away the worst performer in the s&p 500, down 40% at this hour. beware, fuzzy pandas is the lesson there. we've been covering the nationwide housing shortage for some time now, but let's drill down on how it is impacting one city in particular, and diana olig is here with us in the house with that story as part of our cities of success series. welcome, di. >> good to be here.

denver is experiencing massive growth, but not without growing pains. there's simply not enough housing, partly because there are not enough people to build it. ♪ ♪ inside this denver warehouse are some of the city's hottest commodities. future home builders. the buildstrong academy of colorado is a tuition free training program founded in 2017 by a local home builder, who saw a desperate need for skilled labor. just how bad is the labor crisis here when it comes to building homes? >> it's really bad. >> alison is the program's director and said it's grown from 95 students in the first year to now roughly 600 a year. which is still not enough. >> the construction industry is expected to grow so much that we'll need 45,000 new construction jobs by 2027. >> the problem is stark but simple. the metro denver population has

increased 18% in the last decade, compared with the national population growth of 7%. as a result, denver is short 70,000 housing units for its current population. >> with the housing crisis at the level that it is at, people are really passionate about doing something about it and getting results. >> aaron and his girlfriend just moved here from ohio. he was in food services, but says he sees big potential in home building and in denver. why do you think young people like yourself are moving specifically to denver? >> i think a lot of the politics are more what young people are interested in, and also all the recreation options are great. also recreation marijuana is for people to move here, for sure. >> many of the students here are recent denver transplants. >> we're going to make duplicates of them. >> it's a beautiful place and the economic growth really economic prosperity.

>> and that prosperity has led to more tourism, more hotels, all with a focus on the environment and the outdoors. and i'll show you more of that on an extended version of that piece on "cities of success." >> if you have a place where people are moving in, 18% higher population than a decade ago, you're 70,000 houses short of what you need, what happens then? where do those people go? do that go into the distant suburbs to find a place? to they have to pay more to live in downtown denver, which oh, by the way, is a wonderfully liveable city. >> yes, yes, and yes. some people are leaving the city. we'll go into that more in depth. prices are astronomical right now in the denver area, and everywhere in between, so it's difficult to afford. you're bunking in with other people. this is not directly related to that supply, but there is a massive homeless situation there, as well. and we'll get into that more in the piece, too.

that's not necessarily based on getting that affordable housing to make people homeless in that area. there are other issues involving drugs and mental health. but in the city, they definitely need to be more units, more density apartment units, as well. and i promise i'll show you the side of an apartment building from a drone that has a hiking trail up the side of that building. >> tonight? >> tonight. >> thanks, di. coming up, the tax man cometh. returns are due in four days and if you are still waiting to file, you are in lk.uc we have money saving tips for investors like you, next.

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welcome back to the exchange. the deadline to file 2023 taxes just a couple days away. monday, to be precise. about a third of americans have yet to file their returns, according to the irs. for those of you in that group, our next guest has tips to help maximize your refund if you're due one. joining us, bill harris, founder and ceo of evergreen money and former cree of both paypal and intuit. bill, i think i have used intuit products to file my taxes in the

past. >> turbotax. >> i did. there's very little that a person can do today to reduce what they pay for their 2023 returns, right? >> very little. there's one thing you can do, if you have not funded your ira, you can do so if you do it by april 15th. >> there are income limits on whether that's tax deductible. >> about $156,000 depending on your filing status. >> let's turn to the things i can do right now for 2024 to reduce the tax i owe either during this year or when i have to settle up with the irs next spring. >> that's the question. what people do is they panic at the end of the year and they need to prepare the taxes and then file. all of that is backwards looking. there's nothing you can do. right now is the time to think about setting yourself up for 2024. and make sure that this time next year is not as painful. >> what do i do?

what are some things? >> first, if you are a high income taxpayer in a high tax state -- >> new jersey. >> that's a good one. over 10% at the highest levels. that's in addition to the federal and n.i.t., your total tax rate is going to be in exis of 50%. the first thing you need to do, get your money out of bank accounts and cds. >> and put it into? >> why out of bank accounts, because you're paying more than 50%. about the worst thing you can do from a tax point of view. put it into, if it's cash and fixed income, either treasuries which are state tax exempt, munis, which are federal tax x. >> and could be triple tax exempt if you buy in new jersey. >> no taxes whatsoever, and for other fixed income, put it in your tax deferred accounts.

iras, roths, 401(k)s. people think i'll put the stocks in the retirement account. that's wrong. because it's the income generating stocks or assets that have the high taxes. >> that's right. you do your fixed income stuff, your trading if you're trying to rebalance your portfolio, you would be well advised to do more of your trading in your tax sheltered accounts, wouldn't you? >> not really because you really want to shelter the income. on the trading side, what you've got is stocks which are generating either dividends or capital gains. you're already ahead because now top tax rate federal is 20%, not 37%. then what you can do is when you trade, time those trades. it's very punishing if you trade in less than 12 months. more than 12 months, you're into long term capital gain rates and

you can control when you owe the taxes. >> by timely buying and selling? >> timely buying and selling. you can defer, not sell. >> wait until 2025 to sell, but realize losses today to offset any gains i have. >> exactly. that's the second part. you can defer, you can offset, so you can sell if you harvest your losses. and then finally, ultimately, you're going to have some capital gain that's unrealized but built up. there are ways to get rid of that without paying taxes as well. there are charitable strategies, gifting strategies and other kinds of estate strategies. so net-net, you can go from paying 50% of your earnings on your investments to tax to paying zero percent. >> let's talk very quickly about 2025, when the 2017 tax cuts expire or need to be renewed. what do i need to do now, if

anything? those things may get renewed, a lot of them. some may not. >> the first thing you need to do is exactly what we have been talking about. set up your investments so they're tax smart now. second, the thing to really worry about is the estate deduction. and so it's currently on the order of $12 to $14 million. it's going to go down to about $7 million, so if it is not extended, you want to make sure you do as much transferring -- >> gift now. >> bingo. 2025. >> we have to leave it there. thank you very much. you made me smarter today. maybe richer, smarter for sure. >> if you're smarter, it will make you richer. that does it for the exchange. contessa brewer is getting ready. she must be in the house somewhere. you over there? she's right over there. i'm going to joiher n on the other side of this quick break.

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good afternoon, everybody. welcome to "power lunch." i'm tyler mathisen. glad you can join us. markets are higher today. maybe not surprising given the mixed inflation data. today's producer price index coming in lower than expected. much needed relief for markets after consumer prices jumped more tha