see those polls, not only what is the initial change, but do they stay? last? do both candidates ride it the way they want to? >> you can imagine both sides being so fired up. thank you very much. stay close with us. it has been a very much. stay close with us. it has been a monumental hour and a interpret historic moment here in u.s. political history as the former president is convicted, guilty on all 34 counts on this hush money trial. this is the first time a former u.s. president has been a convicted felon. we've been talking about the ramifications, the political ramifications. that conversation is going to continue. obviously it's something that investors and all citizens are paying very close attention to right now. in the next hour we're going to go to "last call." "mad money's" going to be on at 7:00 p.m. tonight. we're going to pick up the coverage with brian sullivan, brian, because there is so much to unpack here in this story that is developing. we're watching the motorcade. we're watching for reaction

that's coming in pretty fast and furious from both sides of the aisle and both campaigns. >> yes, it is. certainly, sara eisen, rolling with the live breaking coverage as well. sara, it very much. folks, i am brian sullivan and as sara said we are live. "mad money" with jim will air tonight at 7:00 p.m. eastern but we are live because we have got breaking news. with cnbc's special coverage of the trump hush money trial verdict. history has been made in many ways this evening. that is a live shot of donald trump's motorcade in manhattan. if you are just tuning in the former president has been found guilty on all 34 felony counts of falsified business records. here's what the former president said moments ago at the new york courthouse where he was just found guilty. >> this was a rigged disgraceful tr trial. the real verdict is going to be november 5th by the people. and they know what happened here and everybody knows what

happened here. >> there are of course huge implications potentially for the election, which also means implications for the markets, your money, and industries like energy. let's start with the macro markets after one of the worst days for the stock market this year. stock futures, they have just opened. normally at this hour they are very thinly traded but let's take a look the afutures and see where they are as the nasdaq coming off one of its worst days of the year. we'll get that up. there we go. we are seeing the nasdaq maybe continuing its decline tomorrow not down big, down about .2 of 1%. but there's been a wobble underneath this market the last couple of days and there's some red on the screen. again, thinly traded. we'll probably see more action come in as the night goes on, particularly into the morning but right now futures are down mildly across the board. let's also take a look at predicted. if you're not familiar predicted is one of the big betting markets around politics. you can bet on who may win the presidency. now, right now joe biden is at what they call 48 cents.

read that basically as 48%. he has now retaken the lead on predicted. he was up for the last number of months. donald trump had a better bid and offer basically coming into today. and with this verdict he has fallen back down. he is still, though, at 47 cents. you can see gavin newsom and some others there, robert f. kennedy jr. below p. joe biden, though, popping a little bit on predicted. 48 cents in the political betting markets. the question everybody will have tonight, what exactly might this mean for the election? sentencing is set for july 11th, just a couple of days before the republicans are expected to nominate donald trump at their convention in milwaukee, wisconsin. what does this verdict mean for the markets and your money? we've got a great guest line-up for you all hour long. you about first let's bring in nbc news reporter rehema ellis. she is live outside the courthouse where the decision came down in the last hour and a

half. rehema. >> reporter: brian, i have to tell you that this park, which is collect pond park right across the street from the court houts, houts, a very different atmosphere than what was going on during the day, during the deliberations. there were people with banners, with flags, people shouting and screaming and banging on drugs. but listen, there's not that happening now. i'm going to swing over a little bit here. katherine, if you can join me. the crowd is a different tone of a crowd. there are almost as many people with cameras and who are in the media as there are of those who came out to see what was going on, to be spectators if you will. this is the park where people were told that they could gather. often donald trump has said the public was not allowed to gather here. well, yes, they were. it was set up for them. but look over here. we're going to go back over here this way. katherine, if you'll join me. one of the things that happened i should tell you is i heard people say they were shocked, they were stunned. one man who said he was so surprised by the verdict but he

said he will still vote for donald trump, it doesn't matter to him what the verdict is. others saying that they were glad it's finally over, that it's the right verdict, that they were just happy now that there's an end to this. so it's a much more subdued crowd. it's not the same group of people, brian, who were here earlier as i was pointing out, those who were protrump. now it seems like it's mostly a crowd of people who have come to see what's the reaction going to be or who had to come out to sort of see what is going on. but many of them are really shocked by this verdict, that the former president has been found guilty on all 34 counts. it's not what they were expecting. and there's a large contingent of police officers here. but it is a quiet group compared to what it was like during the day, brian. there's not a lot of shouting. not a lot of yelling. but people milling about almost stunned, if you will, by what's

happened. brian? >> rehema, very quickly, were you outside the courthouse when the verdict came down? and if you were, was there any kind of audible reaction from both the crowd and maybe the journalists in the crowd? >> actually, no. when we heard there was going to be a verdict announced in about 30 or 40 minutes there was a hush that came over. but there was the expectation that the court was going to recess at 4:30 and they would come back again at 9:30 tomorrow morning. that was the expectation. people were beginning to settle down. and then we got the notice on our phones that a verdict has been decided. so even those in the press, we were surprised that this happened as quickly as it did. 9 1/2 hours of deliberation over two days. 34 counts that they had to get through. but many people were saying the signal that joshua steinglass had given to the jury at his closing argument was go back to the first witness in this case, and that was david pecker.

the former head of the "national enquirer." and look at his testimony. because the judge had told them in their closing, in his charge to the jury, you cannot rely on one person alone in michael cohen in terms of finding a guilty plea. it's got to be more than that. steinglass told them go back to david pecker, david pecker was going to be the corroboration, because david pecker in that conversation he swayed with donald trump back in june of 2016 when the campaign was in full swing, he said he had a conversation with donald trump about paying money -- forgive me, when i see something and hear something i have to turn to make certain of what's going on. but that's crowd reaction. but going back to 2016, david pecker had talked to donald trump and donald trump told david pecker look for a call, expect a call from michael cohen, that we should buy this story and put a clamp on this story. apparently the jurors paid attention. >> rehema ellis, thank you very much. certainly that.

and folks, you are watching a live shot. it's a moment in history, whatever you think of the former president, like him, no opinion, don't like him, this is a moment in history. and all those people that are on those highways in new york are going to have a moment to remember as that motorcade moves through new york city, or at least tries to during rush hour. let's go now to nbc's ali r rothia who's in rehoboth beach, delaware with more. we are expecting president biden to make some comments at some point about this verdict. >> reporter: that's right. we're told from people familiar with the biden team's plans that the president will at some point, it's unclear whether that's going to be in the next few hours or days, address this verdict. and that has been in the works for several weeks now as the biden campaign and the white house really gears up and shifts toward this more aggressive strategy in addressing the former president's legal woes. as far as reaction that we have

seen at this point the biden campaign releasing a statement just minutes after this guilty verdict was read saying in part, quote, that no one is above the law. they also stressed that it needs voters to stop trump at the ballot box. and they recognize that for better or worse they say trump will be the gop nominee. they also sent a fund-raising appeal to voters saying that -- asking voters for donations, arguing that the stakes have never been higher. as far as as you mentioned direct reaction from the president himself, at this point the white house has called a lid, meaning we do not expect to see or hear from the president the rest of the day. that was called shortly after the president came here to rehoboth beach, delaware where he has a home after marking the ninth anniversary of his late son beau biden's death in wilmington, delaware. and so the first opportunity that as of now we will have to see or hear from the president or get a question in to him

regarding this verdict is going to be tomorrow when the president is expected to leave here to go to the white house to welcome the kansas city chiefs for an event. and so at this point that is the latest guidance we have as to the aeearliest we could potentially see reaction from the president himself. but again, this coming as the biden campaign, the white house takes a much more aggressive shift, a much more aggressive approach to these legal woes of the former president, not just addressing this one but also his other ongoing legal cases as we start to see the biden campaign really addressing the fact that trump has been sucking the oxygen out of the room and dominating the airwaves. the president and his team trying to chip away at that attention. >> allie raffa, rehoboth beach, delaware, thank you very much. going to get to our panel in just a second but i want to bring up something you may hear elsewhere that we're going to let you know about the dernell ji here. and this is important. it's kind of a weird quote of

new york state law. you will hear the former president now being referred to as a convicted felon. that is inaccurate. in new york the conviction, the adjudication of guilt, does not label you a, quote, convicted person until sentencing, which will occur on july 11th. so while donald trump was found guilty of 35 counts, if you hear somebody say convicted felon that is inaccurate. legally new york state has a lost its own little quirks in terms of where the supreme court stands, court of appeals is above supreme court, and that terminology, convicted felon, not accurate until sentencing on july 11th. just a small note there. but want to be always editorially accurate. all right. for reaction to all of this let's bring in our panel. american enterprise institute economic policy analyst jimmy peths kooukis. former north dakota senator heidi heitkamp. and yale university senior associate dean jeff sonnenfeld.

thank you very much for joining us. obviously rolling with this breaking news, senator heitkamp, i'm going to go to you. what is your reaction to this verdict and where do you think and how do you think this may play out over the next couple of weeks and months? >> well, the first thing to say is i don't think the defense did much to stop this verdict from happening. the president said he wanted to testify. i thought that was a really bad idea. but yet they didn't put on any witnesses. i think their best defense was that donald trump did not want this disclosed because he didn't want to disappoint his family or his wife. his wife never showed up in the courtroom. i think that hurt him. i think if his wife had come to the courtroom that that might have sent a message that this was about a family matter, that he was trying to protect his family. but i think the only reaction we know right now, brian, politically is that this is going to be a huge boon to donald trump's fund-raising. we're already hearing that his

website's crashing. that win red, which is the counterpart to act blue, republican grassroots fund-raising platform is crashing because so many people now are sending money. and we know one of donald trump's disadvantages going into this cycle is he has anemic fund-raising. so ironically, this verdict today, if you said what's the immediate political reaction, is it is helping donald trump with his fund-raising and solidifying a huge amount of his committed vote. >> yeah, jimmy, earlier we showed predict it and we showed that joe biden had popped up one% basically, one cent as they label it, above the former president. jimmy, i hope you're there. if we look at polymarket, which is bigger, polymarket has trump still up 14% over president biden. which seems very fascinating

given that we have now just had the former president be convicted of 34 counts. jimmy, what is your take on how this may impact not just the election but the outcome in terms of markets, money, the things that you talk about so well? >> i think it's not unreasonable for your baseline to be, you know, his previous indictments really don't seem to have hurt, maybe they've even helped the former president. he's going to be fund-raising. the polls show maybe this is significant only at the margins. so the fact we're not seeing a massive reaction in the betting markets, that's not surprising to me. but, but, but. the president, the former president seemed to have momentum. if you have momentum, what you don't want is anything that's uncertain. so what could change potentially the former president's momentum? well, we have some debates. we have a couple conventions. we have a possible fed rate cut. and now we have this historic

trial and verdict that no matter what the polling says we really don't flow. so that is uncertainty at a time when trump seemed to have momentum. so now there's greater uncertainty about that momentum, which means there's greater uncertainty about who the next president is and if we're going to have tax cuts, tax increases, mega tariffs, small tariffs, are we going to have -- the inflation reduction act 2.0. so there's a lot riding and that all became more uncertain i think with that verdict today. >> jeff sonnenfeld, i know you have a piece out in "time" that's pretty critical of the former president and his potential impact on capitalism. but just in the previous hour sara interviewed a legal expert who said that he believed that at sentencing the former president will likely get probation, not jail time. we have no way to know. we'll have to wait until july 11th to find out. does the outcome of that, i

would imagine, matter in your mind a lot or a little? because to senator heitkamp's point, donald trump's website is down, probably due to a flood of donations. >> thanks, brian. it's great to join your esteemed panel. i agree with heidi 99% of the time and jimmy 89% of the time. and this is one time where i agree with him 100% of the time. but i'll still make it provocative. is so what about jamming the phone lines or the e-mail system going into trump's website is already biden is up twice as much over trump's fund-raising. biden has raised $200 million. the trump campaign has raised $100 million. in terms of cash on hand that's left, it's the same ratio. 100 million left for biden and 50 million only left for trump. if elon musk and some others want to open up their largesse and try to close the gap, make this a tighter race, perhaps. the only thing i would disagree

with on heidi, on jimmy i would just say it's not on the margins, jimmy. any poll. any poll. i've got 12 of them here. that's anywhere from 25%, 24%, 27% of trump supporters would not support him if he's found guilty. and he has been found guilty. brian, you're right. he's not a convicted felon. but he is certainly a virtual felon right now. so there it is. and that's going to be hurting on the margin. in terms of ceos, this is the first time in american -- in our recent american history since herbert hoover through bush 43 that we don't have major business leaders lining up behind trump. not a single one of the fortune 100 firms supported trump this time. not a single one supported him in 2016. and only two major ceos of fortune 100 firms supported him in 2020. now, it's usually 50% to 60%

goes to the gop candidate. that pattern was broken with trump as the gop front-runner. >> yeah. and we're looking at a live shot now of fifth avenue where people have gathered on the sidewalk, guys. this is whatever -- again, whatever your feelings are, whatever your political leanings are, that this is a moment in history and new yorkers walking or stopping to watch, to gawk, whatever you want to call it, this spectacle just outside of fifth avenue. i believe that is trump tower. but it's kind of hard to see from this angle. jimmy, are you surprised -- and we're markets people here at cnbc. we let the data tell the story. are you surprised that on predict it trump has only fallen a couple of cents, i.e. a couple of percent, and on polymarket, now almost two hours past the verdict time, he is still up big? just looking at the markets, not the polls, are you surprised

there is not more of a reaction? >> well, you know, as every prospectus says, you know, past results are not -- do not guarantee future performance. yet we do look at past results and those past results show that there is a sort of teflon over trump when it comes to these trials and these indictments and people -- they feel like nothing's really going to happen and maybe it's partisan. so i think, again, as your baseline to assume that once we get past sort of the historic nature of today and things begin to settle down that it will just go back to the status quo of three hours ago which was i think trump leading, trump with momentum, despite who the ceos are supporting, you have investment banks and people on wall street who do their own sort of forecasting, he's more likely. so we go back to that. but again, it's the uncertainty. it's one thing to sort of forecast and speculate. but now it's happened. so we have that level of uncertainty and we'll see.

but again, i think assuming that past will represent the future, i mean, that's not a bad bet. >> senator heitkamp, again, these are just betting markets, and they have been wrong in the past and they may be wrong now. but it's all we've got. we know that what people think of the polls, who are you reaching, so polls i think after the last two elections a lot of people just say, we'll look at them but i'm not sure we buy into them. as data-driven people here at cnbc, looking at these things that i assume are relatively neutral, these are market participants who are choosing to bet in the political markets, donald trump just went up one while we were talking on polymarket from 54% to 55%. are you surprised there is not more of a negative reaction on the trump side given that there is a very real chance that on july 11th the former president will be sentenced to jail? >> you know, i think it's baked in already.

we have the indictments. we've had the trial. everybody watched the trial. so guilty or innocent wasn't going to make any difference because the facts were revealed. all of this nefarious behavior was exposed. and i think that made the former president very uncomfortable. but one thing, brian, that we don't talk about, which is in the later primaries after nikki haley left and said i'm out, i'm done, she still was getting 15%, 20% in some swing states like pennsylvania. and this will do nothing to bring home people on the margin. people have been sitting on the sideline saying i'm a republican, i want to vote for a republican, i'm going to go to the primary, vote for nikki haley. how do you bring them home if they don't want this level of chaos? and i think one of the things the market's responding to is things are pretty level right now. but let's see what happens in thecourt of public opinion if we see a lot of chaos, a lot of civil disobedience, let's say,

as a result of this verdict? how will the markets respond to that? and we don't know. i think we're really looking into an unprecedented kind of situation right now and we'll see in the next couple weeks. and my argument is eventually it's going to be i ashoulder shrug like whatever and on we go on to the campaign. >> i would agree with the shoulder shrug theory. because again, i think that's perfectly reasonable. but then i think you know, if it had been that trump was innocent on some counts or a hung jury, i think all our -- i think all our collective -- all the shrug analysis would make a lot more sense. i can't help but thinking the fact that it was a clean sweep, i think that is going to end up mattering -- >> i couldn't agree with jimmy -- >> 34, 35-0. and it seems like -- that seems overwhelming. i don't think we can just like

hand wave that away. >> i couldn't agree with jimmy any more. in fact, we're taking a look at betting. i bet most viewers want to bet that heidi would have been the least likely to be the cynic on this panel. in fact, jimmy and i are going the other way on this, is that what's different here i would argue with heidi heitkamp is that this wasn't speculating on the sidelines, thises wasn't michael cohen making hostile statements on a podcast. this was a jury. this was a jury of his peers, a jury of fellow new yorkers as he is. engineers, teachers, a couple lawyers, financiers. and one person who said they primarily get their news from truth social. sara had an excellent interview before. but the legal expert she interviewed, his comment before this was there was going to be a hung jury. it turns out he was wrong. and he'll be wrong again just like the predict poll that, you know, you turn to these bets. brian, they're always wrong.

but even today it's a nine-point swing in biden's favor. biden is up five and trump is down four. if that means anything, it's still very favorable to biden. >> guys, i know you're -- sit tight, please, all of you. you're with us all hour. we really appreciate your generosity of time. we're going to come back to you right now. first off very quickly, we can bring that back up again because i know a lot of people have been trading trump media. djt is the ticker. this is the holding company around truth social. it's got this incredible run. got a valuation over $6 billion. and right now it is being traded and it is being sold fairly actively. djt, not down huge. down 7%. it's not down 27%. but djt, a trader favorite, down 7% right now. they're wall street icons, financial titans, trading trailblazers. fair to say our next guest is all of them combined. joining us now, the bond king, who literally invented modern

bond trading and that is pimco co-founder bill gross. he's the author of a brand new book titled "the king and i: 46 years of investment outlooks, musings and common sensical thoughts." and i have been proud and honored, bill, to probably have been around for around half of those. you and i have been talking for a little over 20 years. so i know some by heart. i want to talk more about the book and your messaging in it in just one second. but as an investor i know you talked to the "financial times" recently. do you have an investment take on this verdict? >> well, not on the verdict. i like the take that you have on djt, which is the social media company. we know what's happening there. the verdict we'll find out in a few days. but in terms of the election, i think the election of trump would be a little more disruptive on the investment side. probably his agenda on taxes

versus biden's would be more disruptive. it doesn't mean the market would go down. it might go up based upon the conclusion. but you know, i think trump and biden -- well, from my personal stand of view. i think they're both too old. they're both too old. and so why don't we find a 45 to 50-year-old person, man, woman, democrat, republican, and elect them at some point? this is ridiculous. >> yeah. by the way, based on surveys and polls and whatever, the majority of americans, even the majority of democrats would agree with you on that statement. going back to your comment on taxes, bill, trump has promised that he would continue his tax cuts. they are set to expire at the end of next year. you said it could be bad on the tax side. is that because at a time of record debt and record deficits that any change to the tax code

could wobble or hobble the bond market? >> yeah, i think so. and remember, you know, there's a congressional input here in terms of democrat or republicans, you know, immediate verdict. we don't really know whether something -- an extension could be passed or not. but in any case, the trump agenda would suggest a higher deficit, would suggest higher interest rates to some extent, would suggest, you know, perhaps a boon for real estate and for the stock market. so pluses and minuses. but i think trump's agenda would be more disruptive if passed. >> is that because of continuity as well as? as an investor for 40-plus years, bill, when you look at buying debt, whether it's government debt, whether it's corporate debt, and now you're more in the stock market because it's your own money and your family office. do you look more for what the policy may be or do you look

more for continuity across two terms? >> i think more in terms of what the policy might be. of course you have to put odds on that, a percentage weighting on that. and so it becomes not an easy decision. but i think, you know, knowing the agendas of both in terms of the economy, although to be fair biden's $2 trillion deficit is sort of equal to what trump did in his presidency. so not so much different there. but i don't think that biden would approve the extension of the tax cuts, and so therefore probably a little more disruptive for trump going forward. >> i feel like economically, obviously not socially, bill, but economically the two are relatively similar. i mean, you think about the fact that donald trump considered himself a democrat for decades. politics aside, both gentlemen

are almost tripping over themselves to be tougher on china and tougher on trade. imposing new tariffs. trump's threatening more tariffs if he is re-elected. president biden just enacting more tariffs. do you, again, as an investor worry about this escalating trade war? or is there a benefit to the united states and a way perhaps to invest and profit around it? >> i am very worried. i'm surprised that in the media not as much attention has been paid to it as should be. i mean, to the extent that both sides are for higher tariffs and more restrictive trade. and this is not just in the united states. of course in europe, in euroland and other countries and china fighting back perhaps. you know, when you restrict trade as opposed to expand it, when you deglobalize as opposed to globalize, you know, it has an impact over time, which is important, but it has an impact over time in terms of the gdp,

in terms of growth, in terms of productivity. so i'm very concerned about that and i think more should be. >> i know 46 years takes -- i'm pretty bad at math, bill. you're a lot better. but in my mind i'm thinking that takes us back to what, about 1978. and i'm thinking from '79 to '81 was a pretty hot time for inflation. and this world that we're living in now, we have the hottest inflation, or at least we did, the rate, to when you began really your career in booming and building and growing pimco. is there one lesson -- >> correct. >> -- in "the king and i" that is most reflective of this type of economic environment and/or something you learned maybe the hard way in the early days dealing with the fight against inflation? >> well, as you know, for your 20 years, not my 40, but as you know for your 20, you know,

there have been various agendas, various periods of time in which there were bond vigilantes. there was a bond king and other bond kings in terms of their importance. you know, someone basically said all i want to be in my next life is to be the bond market. so we had these transitions in terms of who were important, who wasn't important. now i think only the central banks and only the fed is important. so watch the fed. don't necessarily believe them because they haven't been actually very good in the past five or six, seven years. but watch the fed and see where interest rates are headed. that will help in terms of the markets going forward. >> i think that was the lsu political pundit james carville, bill, who famously said that in his cajun drawl. "when i come back, i want to be the bond market." jay powell is ostensibly a republican. and i listen to david zervos of

jefferies recently. he knows jay powell personally. he made a great point. he said the fed will say, will say over and over again that it is, quote, apolitical but these are also just women and men who not only value their role in history but they also value their job. and with change at the top could come change at the top of the fed. do you believe that the fed is truly apolitical or do you think there's enough soft influence that the outcome of this election could determine the outcome of interest rates? >> i don't think the fed is political per se. yes, this is an election year. yes, there are suggestions that maybe they will lower interest rates in order to stimulate the economy. that typically has been what's happened over the past 20 or 30 years. but i do think the fed's composition has changed in recent years. it's more socially oriented as

opposed to monetarily oriented. and to that extent that sort of worries me. it doesn't mean i don't care about their agendas. it does mean that they're not necessarily focused on monetary policy as we've seen every o'the past 10, 20, 30 years and with volcker. >> i'm still in the no rate cut camp this year, but i tweeted out earlier, bill, that there's a -- the tent flap, as it were, may be open for a small cut, perhaps after the election, because they don't want to do it too close to be seen as potentially trying to impact the election. very quickly, do you think we get a rate cut this year? >> yeah, i think maybe one. today we saw some numbers on gdp at 1.1%, consumption at 2. we're achieving the soft landing. now, tomorrow's number in terms of the pce is important. we'll see whether it's 2.8 or 2.7. ultimately, i think as it moves lower, or if it moves lower,

closer to 2 1/2%, that the fed relentz and lowers interest rates just a bit. >> bill gross, we appreciate your time. and also rolling with all this very historical breaking news. the book is called "the king and i." i urge everybody to go out and read it. bill gross, thank you very much. folks, just a reminder. if you are just joining us, we are live here. but don't worry, jim will be up with "mad money" at 7:00 p.m. eastern time tonight. he's got a great guest line-up. you'll hear from the ceos of best buy. you'll hear from the ceos of hormel. those stocks went in very different directions today. jim will be up at 7:00 p.m. but right now we continue our breaking coverage of the trump trial verdict. and if you are just tuning in or maybe coming out from under a rock, former president trump has been found guilty on all 34 counts in that new york hush money trial. let's talk more about the fund-raising impact of all of this and the wall street reaction. joining us is cnbc political finance reporter brian schwartz. brian, we talked earlier about

how i guess donald trump's campaign website had crashed, ostensibly from perhaps too much traffic. we don't know exactly what that is. what are people saying and what's maybe your take on how this impacts fund-raising? on both sides. >> well, over the last few days we've been making a lot of calls on this very subject in case this verdict came down to being guilty against donald trump. and what we learned is the vast majority of people we spoke to, feels like i've done two dozen calls on this thing, really aren't -- are really shrugging this off and they're doubling and tripling down in terms of raising money for donald trump. >> raising more money. >> that's right. >> even though they're -- so nbc news's analyst chuck rosenberg, and i don't want to make a judgment. i have a law degree but i'm not a lawyer. but the nbc news analyst said that given that trump is a non-violent first-time offender it is likely he will get probation, not jail time. those are very different things not only for him personally and his family but for the election because if he is in jail i would imagine that would have to

change things. but it sounds like your people are saying maybe not. >> that's right. i think in a way that's where they're going with this. and over the last, you know, week or so we've kind of seen that shift. talking about people like blackstone ceo steve schwarzman. this is about a week before how we got to today. and he endorsed donald trump. everybody's been seeing this trial take place and there was always that possibility that this was going to be a guilty verdict. but instead of holding back, instead of opting to say we're not going to help donald trump, you know, this has become a situation where they're actually doubling if not tripling down on their support. david saks who's going to be hosting a fund-raiser for trump in i believe a week is supporting him publicly at the moment as we go through this. >> jeff sonnenfeld said earlier, made a good point. he was referencing some polls that are out there. i know what many people think about polls but they're what we've got so we go with them. some of these polls have suggested that there are people who have said, well, i'll support the former president, trump, unless he's convicted. unless he is convicted.

then my support may waver. and those are citizens of the united states. you're talking about blackstone and schwarzman, these mega donors. has anyone said that to you at the highest level, that their support may waver based on this case? >> no. that's flat out. i have not met one person who raises money or is at the c suite level who said to me you know what, a conviction of whatever legal machinations that donald trump faces, that is going to influence me to hold back money or stop raising money for him entirely. that may change in the coming days. maybe this sinks in and somehow that strategy evolves over the next 24 to 48 hours. but going into today, going into this evening's decision and the verdict, there was just a sense that none of this really mattered for the major donors and they are just moving ahead with major -- there's talk about having an event at madison square garden in the coming weeks. >> in the coming weeks. >> that's where you could see millions of dollars raised for donald trump. >> sit tight.

could we add you to our panel, brian schwartz? you've got a big brain, political connection. sit tight here. let's make this a four-person panel. i doubt we'll go to the famous oct oktabox but you never know. jimmy pethokoukis, heidi heitkamp, jeff sonnenfeld still with us. jeff, i quoted you. are you surprised there are billionaires and millionaires brian is talking to who have said don't care what the verdict is, we'll either still support or double down on the support for trump? >> i think, you know -- i don't want to create a split between brian and brian here on the life of brian, but i would want to point out that brian schwartz should define who he's talking to. those people are not public company ceos. in the one company, public company ceo he mentioned steve schwarzman, blackstone is not a fortune 100 firm. but when he refers to david sacks, who is david sacks? david sacks is a very strongly pro-putin anti-vaxx trump

diehard. these financiers of private enterprises are different than a public company ceo. edelman data that's coming out in four days, the edelman trust data, shows that nobody wants ceos to get involved in favor of biden or to get in favor of trump. they want across the board, employees want their ceos to stay non-partisan and they're very upset that the trump agenda continually mixes politics and commerce. going after american icons like harley-davidson, disney, ford, general motors, i mean, you name it, some of the most -- coca-cola, the most u.s.-identified brands globally are brands that trump has sequentially gone after in his divide and conquer schemes. ceos don't like -- >> but jeff, president -- brian, jump in here as well. by the way, david sacks is on this program and his views -- we welcome all views. he's welcome back anytime. david, if you're listening call in. president biden has gone after apple. the ftc going after amazon.

i don't think we can say that either current or former president has not had some motivation to go after certain types of business. >> okay, that's a big difference, is to go after them. i think frankly lina khan who is his antitrust chief, is not supporting american enterprise well. i agree with you. some of the antitrust issues are problematic. but president biden has never said don't buy from these american companies. as president trump as president said, don't buy harley-davidson. their only competitors are non-u.s. competitors. he said don't buy general motors. he said don't buy disney, don't go to disney. across the board. you know, he got in the middle of the at&t time warner merger. is that these were all politically motivated mixtures with commerce and telling american consumers not to buy these oducts and to buy the foreign competitors. we've never seen that in history before. that's what ceos don't like, is that divide and conquer nonsense. furthermore, as -- >> jeff, sorry to cut you off,

my man. i want to let brian to get in here and get a chance to respond. >> jeff, you were talking about you were alluding to publicly traded companies and their ceos you're saying and they're not necessarily going toward helping toward trump. but you know, to argue that that negates in a way the financial weight that some of these people -- you're right, to your point, aren't necessarily executives of publicly traded companies. i don't necessarily think it negates the effort these folks are making. or the amount of money they're putting behind trump or raising for trump. you said something about david sacks, and that's fine. but the point is that in a matter of days post the verdict, you know, he is co-hosting an event in san francisco that will likely as you know, will raise millions of dollars. so i don't know if we can pick and choose in this discussion of who exactly is helping trump. of course i don't think we'll hear anything yet from somebody like jamie dimon. we both know that he's probably not going to come out and say something about this particular verdict. but there are executives, and we

talk about somebody like bill ackman, we're hearing that is likely going to support donald trump over joe biden. bill ackman is not a nobody billionaire. the idea we're kind of debating about well, the ceo has to be the ceo of a publicly traded company versus a non-publicly traded company. i understand where you're coming from but -- >> you're talking about -- >> i don't think it negates the amount of money being raised. >> nobody who comes on this show including bill ackman would ever -- and he's a friend of mine. would ever represent himself as the voice of the american business community. the financiers you're talking about, especially some of those activist investors, are just the opposite of friends of the american business community. they're not the voice of the american business community. and i'm talking about public company ceos. yes. have not -- who always in the past supported the gop candidates. >> sure. >> herbert hoover through bush 43. they stopped now with trump. and they've not come back. that's the big issue. ands if they're so generous, brian, how come there's still this enormous 2 to 1 gap -- if

the phone lines are busy, sure, a lot of dollar callers going in jamming the phone line to give their $1 or $5 contributions. elon musk hasn't given a penny. ken griffin hasn't given a penny yet. >> we shall see. guys, sit tight again. you can see a live shot of the courtroom or outside the courtroom. we're expecting the d.a. alvin bragg to make some comments, take i avictory lap. senator heitkamp, i want to bring you in. this is not a u.s. story. this is a global story. the globe's media is in that room right now. the leaders of france are watching. the leaders of the uk are watching. the leaders of mexico are watching. okay? we've got a major election in mexico coming up as well. does this verdict as it is now affect foreign stability? >> i don't think it affects foreign stability. i think what it does is it calls into question what's going to happen in the american election. and we can talk all day long about what american corporate business people are going to do, whether they're going to play or not play.

this election is going to be won or lost on the margins. and the most critical group is suburban women. and how will they perceive this verdict? when they've been out voting for nikki haley, they've been out expressing their dissatisfaction. will they come home to donald trump? and i think it's unlikely because as we saw in the midterms when everybody thought it was the economy stupid, guess what it was about. reproductive rights. it was about chaos in government. it was about some kind of certainty in knowing that people who are running your government cared about running government. so these are people who will listen to that argument on the margin. and so when we go forward with this verdict it adds to the negative of chaos. but i don't think trump's xhois ballot initiative, i don't think trump's -- people's sense of wanting to preserve democracy and so on we go.

but remember, this election is going to be won with suburban women and whoever can carry suburban women is going to be the next president of the united states. >> can i answer your question, brian? >> yes. >> listen, i think anytime -- given sort of the global rise of illiberalism. i think anytime other countries can look at the united states of america and see the rule of law, see that no person is above the law, that even a former president who is popular in many quarters, who may be leading the election, is still subject to the verdict of a jury of his peers in new york city, i think that's good for america. whatever uncertainty, policy uncertainty it might create. i think that issue, i don't think that's bad for america at all. >> i didn't mean to imply that's bad for america. but what i'm talking about is right now especially in europe

they're deeply concerned about the next biden -- or the next trump presidency, deeply concerned about nato. and when you look at this verdict they're going to have to analyze it on what's the impact on the election. and i'm still in the shrugging stage. but as we look at making the argument to european allies as democrats you tell them, look, this is -- >> we are waiting for manhattan d.a. alvin bragg to make some comments about the guilty verdict, no doubt taking a victory lap for this case which many have criticized, saying it's a bunch of misdemeanors rolled up. the jury felt differently -- >> good evening. >> we have a ruling and here's alvin bragg. >> first and foremost i want to thank the jury for its service.

jurors perform a fundamental civic duty. their service is literally the cornerstone of our judicial system. we should all be thankful for the careful attention that this jury paid to the evidence and the law and their time and commitment over these past several weeks. 12 everyday new yorkers and of course our alternates heard testimony from 22 witnesses including former and current employees of the defendant, media executives, book publishers, custodians of records and others. they reviewed call logs, text messages and e-mails. they heard recordings. they saw checks and invoices, bank statements and calendar appointments.

this type of white collar prosecution is core to what we do at the manhattan district attorney's office. in the 1930s district attorney thomasdewey ushered in the era of the modern independent professional prosecutor. for now nearly 90 years dedicated professionals in this office have built upon that fine tradition. a major part of our practice during that nearly 90 years has been public integrity work including cases involving jurists, local and state electeds, public servants and others. i want to thank this phenomenal prosecution team, embodying the finest traditions of this office, professionalism, integrity, dedication, and service. they are model public servants,

and i am proud and humbled to serve side by side with them. the 12 everyday jurors vowed to make a decision based on the evidence and the law and the evidence and the law alone. their deliberations led them to a unanimous conclusion beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant, donald j. trump, is guilty of 34 counts of falsifying business records in the first degree to conceal a scheme to corrupt the 2016 election. and while this defendant may be unlike any other in american history, we arrived at this trial and ultimately today at this verdict in the same manner as every other case that comes through the courtroom doors, by following the facts and the law

and doing so without fear or fa favor. i want to conclude by expressing deep gratitude to the nypd and the officers of -- the officers of the office of court administration for securing the courthouse, all of our safety, making sure the courthouse and all of the other matters that are important in their own right continue seamlessly. they will continue to be and have always been incredible partners. thank you. >> all right. that was manhattan d.a. alvin bragg i can maing comments about the verdict and talking about how it was -- and reiterating the fact that it was a unanimous verdict, guilty on 34 counts. he's going to be taking questions. we will not take those. plenty of other people doing that. we're coming at it from the investing angle. and with us now on set tonight is one of the biggest energy

investors in america. founder and senior partner of energy capital partners doug kimmelman. they're one of the largest private owners of power generation, renewables and more. just did a big deal. you obviously did not expect this kind of a deal when you agreed to come on, doug. thank you very much for joining us. there is perhaps no industry more than yours, energy, that is going to be impacted by the election because if trump were to win he has said he will basically gut or try to gut the inflation reduction act, hundreds of billions of dollars going -- combining with private capital to build out energy investing. as an investor, no political views, investing, how do you see each xwrououtcome impacting you world and energy? >> well, thanks for having me, brian. let's just start with the u.s. economy and how big energy has become. i'm sure we're going to talk about energy security. but the united states is blessed to have become the largest producer of oil and gas in the world. it's a huge boost to our economy. whoever the president is, it's

going to be hard to gut that. some are projecting that natural gas production in this country's going to grow by 30% by the end of this decade. so don't forget that piece of the equation. >> yeah, but we do have an lng pause which won't affect the current projects but it could affect future projects. i would imagine if trump were re-elected he'd kill that pause. >> absolutely he'll kill that pause. but we're going to need natural gas more than just for the export of it. we're going to talk about electricity and ai and data centers and all the demand that's going to come from that. but don't forget the renewables. let's look where they are in this country. a lot of red states are very big in renewables. texas at the top of the list. it's jobs. it's taxes. it's a big boost to their economy. not so sure that's going to be gutted so quickly. let's watch how all this plays out. >> yeah, there's political statements and then there's economic reality. and to your point a lot of the parts that go into, say, a wind turbine are made in pennsylvania. they are made in ohio. >> exactly. >> they are made in wisconsin.

and the last time i checked those are pretty damn important states for the election. >> yeah. and don't forget before trump was president this was a state-driven initiative. we have at least 30 states, probably more that have what are called renewable portfolio standards that are requiring utilities to buy renewable power, in some cases up to 100% of electricity over time must come from renewables. these are not federally driven mandates. okay. there was a little bit of a boost, maybe a big boost, the inflation reduction act but this was already happening. and you don't see a state like california going to go backwards on this no matter who -- >> by the way, regardless of the outcome of the presidency, a lot of political pundits, and again, they could be wrong, these are pundits, suggest that the gop will retake the senate. so you could have a republican majority congress. they could lose the house too. it's razor thin. let's say we get the gop majority congress but biden is still in the white house and they go after -- that republican majority goes after the i.r.a. does that affect how energy

capital partners looks at -- do you pull back and say i need that federal matching money? >> a long time ago as an investor you don't want to be investing betting on subsidies. what the government giveth the government can taketh away. we try to look for projects that on their own right make a lot of sense. but don't forget, there's been so much manufacturing that has kicked off in this country just in the last year. a lot of it driven by the inflation reduction act. a lot of it in red states. big battery manufacturing facilities in states like kentucky. you know, those are under construction. you're not going to reverse that. >> the genie is out of that -- >> i think it is. >> -- electric al bottle if you will. >> i think it is. >> we had a headline in the "financial times" today, i'm sure you saw it, that because of demand growth for ai and all the electricity you need to run these data centers that coal, a lot of coal plants that had been scheduled to be shut down may have to remain online. you're huge in the renewable side. when i posted that to my audience and followers, smartest people out there, by the way, love them all, said why can't we

just build a solar farm to power the data center? can a solar farm generate enough power to power a mid-sized data center? >> no, last time i checked the sun goes down at 5:00. so i think we'd have an issue. these -- >> batteries, though, doug. batteries. >> maybe an extra four hours. the technology isn't there yet to take a six-hour solar resource to a 24-hour resource. we can all hope and pray that that day may come. but it doesn't get it. if you're a data center operator, you need to be running 24/7. you want what they call five 9s, 99.999% reliability. you're going to need natural gas-fired generation to back up the renewables. we're the largest power owner of power generation through natural gas production in this country as well. it's a blend of both. >> and very quickly are you investing in nuclear? suddenly it's green again. >> i think i'd be before the nrc for 15 years trying to get a nuclear operating license. i don't think i'm the guy for that. but it is important. the problem is our nuclear

plants in this country are 40, 50, 60 years old. u.s. is still the world's largest producer of nuclear power you but we're not only going to lose coal plants but coal and nuclear together are almost 40% of our capacity, so we're going to have i athe willability of a supply-demand crash which is happening right now. losing supply, nuclear and coal, and all of a sudden this huge demand from ai, electric transportation, manufacturing. we can go through all of that. >> doug kimmelman of energy capital partners, i could talk to you all day because i like talking about energy. and i like talking to you and i'm really glad you came in. thank you for rolling with all this breaking news. historic day. doug, i hope to see you again. thank you for your generosity. >> thanks, brian. >> let's get a quick check on futures again. before the verdict today the markets were down. in fact, one of the worst days of the year for the nasdaq. we are seeing futures down again right now. not much. i don't want to overstate this. if you are other on the ridio, nasdaq futures down about .2%. let's talk more about the markets because again, you wonder is there going to be a

wobble, i athe will uncertainty because of this verdict thrown into the markets? the one thing that stock market investors will tell you, and i've been doing this for 28 years, is that they may be politically agnostic but they want continuity and more importantly they want to know what's going to happen. what are the regulations going to look like? stuff that doug and i just talked about. let's bring in our friend now to talk more about this, wrap it up ahead of a crazy day. tim seymour. tim, i really appreciate you kind of rushing back on. >> all good. >> from a short-term sort of trading perspective, not political, trading, what is your take? >> i don't think the markets really care here. and i'm not sure that the markets -- i know this is going to be tough on a night like tonight. really care about who's in the white house. i think the things to be looking at are the things that we should and continue to around where rates are, where the deficit is. political chaos in washington, we've already heard from fitch, maybe nobody cares about fitch but as a guy that's been investing in emerging markets i

think our politics do matter, and that's from an xlik and from a credit perspective. not from a political perspective. not surprised at muted response here. again, markets have had an extraordinary run here but they've also pulled back over the last couple days independent of this news. >> yeah, independent. and i think the futures down a little bit. .2%. i want to also just get final comments from the entire panel that we've got here. jimmy, heidi and jeff, thank you both very much for sticking around. your generosity is appreciated it. got about 90 seconds left in the show. jeff sonnenfeld, your final thoughts. >> i think jimmy nailed it early on, that the statement from the jury is very powerful but for the business community they care -- they're not protectionist for the most part. they're not xenophobic. they like imgmigration in skilld areas. and they're not isolationists. these are three tenets of the maga philosophy. but also as jimmy said the rule of law is what matters. they tell us repeatedly they care more about the law of rule

than investing where the rule of -- >> senator heitkamp if you were advising a ceo would you advise stay out of this fray, don't make a comment about anything? >> i wouo winning here. >> yeah, that's short and sweet and i think to the point. jimmy, your final thoughts. >> up till now the presidency had been impervious to this kind of news. that's the baseline assumption among investors. we'll see if those 34 counts change that assumption. >> and tim, your final thoughts. what's the next most important thing that you're going to be watching from a markets perspective? >> all i can tell you is why do you think gold and bitcoin have been rallying? everything that's happened today -- and again, this does not necessarily mean i'm talking about a white house without trump in it. but this is why you're buying gold, bitcoin and why i think people are very focused on the rates markets. >> and quickly, doug kimmelman, does it change how you view energy investing? >> not at all. not one bit. >> why not? >> the country needs it. it's a huge part of our -- it's our economy.

we need it. >> we're going to need all of everything. everybody, thank you very much for rolling with this historic breaking day. truly an historic day in the united states. and we've got it all covered on the market side from cnbc. of course we've got jim cramer and "mad money" coming up next. and then we kick off tomorrow morning at 5:00 a.m. could be my mission is simple -- to make you money. i'm here to level the playing field for all investors. and i promise to help you find it. mad money starts now. hey, i'm cramer. welcome to mad money. my job is to educate, to teach. say it ain't so, salesforce. this longtime market darling, one of the great