well, rudy giuliani is doubling down lies landing even hot water in the first place, flies that have a mother and daughter fearing for their lives.

tonight on our quest life. so, there is a lot going on in the world, we know this. you have probably -- when it comes to the important news. let me tell you, if you are looking for the one thing to take away from all of this, what i think is the one thing, here it is. rudy giuliani, i cannot get this story out of my mind. that is why i'm going to focus on it with you right now. do you realize somebody who was the former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, a very familiar prosecutor, is refusing to stop defaming and lying about election workers, election workers who have been proven, proven, to have done absolutely nothing wrong? in fact, the federal judge who is overseeing that case has already ruled that rudy is spreading false information about ruby freeman and wandrea

"shaye" moss. he is falsely claiming, and you remember this, they were passing around usb drives, quote, as if they are vials of heroin or cocaine. interesting use of that particular description and analogy, is it not? in fact, it wasn't a usb drive. remember, it was a ginger mint being passed between mother and daughter. now, it's a matter of how much the man who was once known as america's mayor will have to pay for defaming them, not whether he did, but how much he has to pay for having done it. the damages portion of it. even knowing he is in court today, this week, in the midst of a trial on that very issue, it is not stopping him. i mean, i remind you, he was the former u.s. attorney. he should know better than this. >> do you regret what you did to -- >> of course i don't regret. i told the truth.

they were engaged in changing votes. >> there's no proof of that. >> you are wrong. there is. stay tuned. >> tell us right now. stay tuned, to me, says you are trying to find a reason, reverse engineer. tell me where the evidence is, or last month, tell us, or the month before, or any point in time when you had opportunities to demonstrate there was any evidence whatsoever. ideal with the court of law. he knows that quite well. i'm not staying tuned unless i want to hear more about the damages portion of the trial. there are very real world consequences to all of this. it wasn't just a theoretical thing, whether ruby freeman or sheamus would, somehow, have been attacked by people, verbally. they wouldn't have felt in fear of their lives, or livelihood. listen to this example of threatening voice mail has left for ruby freeman and shaye moss. they were played in court today. there were wasteful of obscene

and racist threats. i'm going to play some for you. i'm going to warn you, not only are they disturbing, they were directed at people who just raised their hand to serve the community as election workers. >> you are going to jail, ruby. you are going to get locked up, ruby. that's election fraud, ruby. what was on the usb drive, ruby? you are all going to [bleep] jail, you peace of [bleep] [bleep]. >> hey, if this is shaye moss, hey [bleep], i hope you like a jail. that's where you're going on your way to hell. >> based on, what were these taunts relayed? if you picked up your phone, and there is a message like that on it, and, frankly, some of the other ones are so riddled with obscenity's, so riddled with racial slurs, great to be back most of them, making it entirely

incomprehensible. today, we heard from shaye moss herself, and she said her worst fear, and imagine this, after being an election worker, after having what was said about her in the defamatory statements made, that she is now afraid her son would find out her mother would be, maybe, hanging from a tree, or get in the news at school his mother had been killed. can you imagine what that was feeling like, and how it still does? she had to tell him racism is real, and she felt like the worst mother ever. i have to say, directly, to someone like shaye moss, and i hope she hears this, because nothing that you have done warranted that behavior. i haven't planned to stay tuned, nor should be all about some figment of once imagination that was not presented in a court of law, and a ruling already issued, telling the truth, setting up to powerful

people to protect your son, to do what's right for your country, and helped democracy by actually being an election worker, what were you supposed to do? to think about how personal the attacks have felt, what it felt like to you to no question your own ability, and perception of yourself as a mother, this is where we are. the next election day is 328 days away. guess what? stay tuned for this, you're going to need election workers to protect our fair and free and fair elections. who would raise their hand to do this kind of job after just an example, like this, with what happened to shaye moss or ruby freeman? the question is, why? why won't rudy giuliani stop the behavior? what is behind it? that's what's gotten my mind spinning tonight, through all of the different news.

this is where i'm focused, thinking about what, on earth, is the motivation? let me ask ken freeman. he was the campaign spokesperson back in 1993, during really giuliani's run for new york mayor. he is a consulting producer for the cnn original series giuliani, what happened to america's mayor. i'm glad you're here. i really had been racking my brain, thinking about the idea of stepping on the rake time and time again, knowing you already had a defamation finding. you heard what shaye moss had to say today. tell me, why do you think rudy giuliani is doubling down now? >> i think he is taking a page out of trump's playbook. trump is defiant, he has been trashing the state attorney general, letitia james, after every court session. rudy is doing the same.

he is given to access, that is for sure. you know, i wrote a column about him in october 9th, 2019, were i advised him to stay away from trump, tuesday away from freeman and parnas, and instead he returned to the ukraine the next day, he doubles down, as you said earlier. if you told him he made a bad hire, he would give that person a raise and a promotion. if you want him not to do something, you tell him the opposite. >> river psychology would have worked. maybe telling him go ahead and defame them, that would've made him stop? talk to me. here's what i'm asking, though. walk me through that psychology. what is it, what is at the court for him? is it that he is trying to emulate the courthouse conversation to trump, as you

say, or is it something about it, is it an ego that says you can't tell me what to do? i will do whatever i want? is that where it's coming from? is it something else? what? >> you alluded to it earlier, no one knows the law as well as he does. you know, i spent -- we spent two years researching the documentary henry. i knew a lot about him already, but i learned a lot more, including the fact he was best of class and the attorney's office. he was number three in the justice department at the age of 38, and he was a very effective first term mayor. you may not like his bedside manner, but he turned the city around. he was transformative. he did it through sheer of will and he is used to willing people to do his bidding the same way trump's. it's not working anymore. he is flailing around desperately trying to, you know,

stay out of jail, frankly. i have said on cnn and elsewhere's only goal should be to die a free man. i think he and trump are -- yeah. if their lawyers are telling them anything other than that, they are not giving them good council. i think he is banking on trump becoming president again, not that he could pardon him in a state case, but the two of them are convinced trump is going to become president, and they're going to put the band back together again. >> i don't know if that needs to be a cover band, but you mentioned the bank. this is damages case, this is not just a run-of-the-mill finding of whether or not somebody has actually done what they are alleged to have done. this is also about what it is going to cost them. we are talking about millions of dollars at state care, and word on perhaps the manhattan

streets is that he has a habit. is that part of the motivation? what is the impact of him not having the funds, you think, on his behavior? >> desperately lashing. out he doesn't have the money. everybody knows that. they're never gonna collect the money, the same way the sandy hook families are not going to collect maids millions of dollars from alex jones, in spite of his bankruptcy. so, i think he knows that he is not going to live to pay out millions of millions of dollars. he can't even afford a nuclear, frankly. i know that. that's how low on funds he is. so it's a question of collecting. it's not just the number. you have to actually collect the money. damage, i don't see that. he doesn't have tens of

millions of dollars. >> i think that's probably in the cards but that's why i wonder about the doubling down. when one does not believe that jail is in the immediate future in that someone can't collect on the payment, then maybe defiant is his way of punching out. just to really understand you and your relationship with him, this is somebody, i mean, he married you and your wife. you carry around a picture of giuliani four years in that picture with you and your wife, for years, and here you are now very vocal about hooey's today. why do you feel it is so important to speak out today? >> i feel an obligation because i did know him when he was a terrific mayor. i have seen the devolution of him over the years and i feel it is my obligation, frankly,

to share what i know, and to try to prevent democracy from being overturned. that was a big part of our documentary. if you recall on january six, he said let's have trial by combat. that can only mean one thing. let's overthrow the government, and let's take the capital. that's exactly what happened. words matter. he should know that. frank lance wrote a book called words matter and rudy doesn't seem to understand that, or doesn't seem to care about the effectiveness of his words and his behavior. >> that's the crux of this particular case, the words, the idea of making statements that defame someone, that are false, that diminishes someone's reputation or standing in the community. he has already been found to be liable for having done that. now it's about the damages. even now he says he doesn't

regret the thing. ken frydman, this is a fascinating, at least psychological study, for a number of reasons. thank you so much. >> you're welcome so much. >> and of course i'm not gonna forget the fact that we're talking about rudy giuliani, the focus should be on the people that he was doing that too and what they are going through tonight. and yesterday, and every day since it happened, apparently. also, republicans, they are on the verge of taking the next step in their impeachment inquiry into president biden, but here is a little thing that maybe no one's really talking to about yet. could it backfire on them? that's what everybody is talking about tomorrow, i bet you. they cut we are covering it right here, next.

>> all right, so time is of the essence. voters are already making up

their mind. look, the first caucuses or just a week away. rhonda santos is finally apparently seizing the opportunity to take the shot i don't trump betty wondered why he had taken before because he was trying to become the front runner. but here he was at cnn's town hall tonight. >> i think the first two years of the trump administration, the economy is better than it has been. but that last year with covid, i think it was mishandled dramatically. i went to the rallies with donald trump. he said he was going to build the wall and have mexico pay for it. that didn't happen. i think the one thing in this race that i think is important to point out is donald trump flip-flopping on the right to life. >> i wonder where this person was when a couple months ago i talked about with the former republican congressman joe walsh and former commentator karen finney, senior spokesperson for hillary clinton's president shielding

campaign in 2015. people of talking about not just him but all the candidates as to why they were not addressing in a very pointed and direct way the folds of donald trump. one would assume you would in an election year. why do you think it is happening now, karen? >> i think he recognizes time is running out and this was an opportunity to reintroduce the reintroduction of rhonda santas two point oh with his cowboy boots and all. and -- >> maybe he watches yellowstone like myself. that's fine. not gonna judge him. go ahead. >> as you know was a tall woman i have data men who wear cowboy boots, and they only mean one thing. it's okay. >> a different show entirely. >> look, i think he understands as an opportunity but the question is can he close what is it 40-point gap and someone made the point that it's a seven-point swing from where desantis was a year ago. so he was clearly trying to show a kinder, gentler, more

empathetic, more human, as we would say, particularly on abortion. it's really interesting how he didn't quite take the bait on answering the question that jake asked him about the situation in texas where the woman has just had to leave the state to have an abortion. >> 31 years old. mother of two. has a fatal diagnosis for a genetic disorder for a 20-week old fetus and now had to leave the state for an emergency abortion. >> they used both as an opportunity to attack trump for flip-flopping but also to try to, again, see more compassionate. but it's interesting that he said the legislature had pushed. did you notice that the legislature had put forward this legislation that had different exceptions, and he went ahead and signed it. when in the past he was i did it, it was about me. so there were some other points where he kind of embellished, let's say, the facts. >> like he's downplaying it.

when he signed, at an event that night, he did not address it fully at all. >> it is an issue republicans do not want to talk about at all. laura, it's too late. he got into the race, like haley got into the race months ago, not to beat donald trump. they decided from the get-go, we can't beat him, we're just going to wait to see if we can be the alternative if something happens to trump. something didn't happen to trump. he has increased his lead in iowa. it's just too late. >> he's still gonna go if it's too late he would go against president joe biden in a rematch and you've got republicans trying to now secure an impeachment inquiry against him. we are hearing about the reverse engineering and we haven't heard about what the high crime misdemeanor is. one had to come first, chicken egg, which comes first. apparently now it's the inquiry itself. will that backfire?

>> yes. [laughter] >> it will, okay. >> this is what the base wants. this is what trump demands. and truthfully, joe biden would love this. >> do you think you would love, it really? >> oh gosh yeah. politically this will be anathema to most of the american people. as you said, there's no reason for this. most americans don't know the difference between beginning an impeachment inquiry. they're beginning an impeachment of joe biden. there is no reason for that. that's gonna backfire against republicans. >> what do you think? >> i completely agree. i think a couple of things. number one it has to be very bad for republicans and those 18 districts where joe biden won because they're right-wing colleagues have been saying hey you're just gonna be voting to agree we should have an inquiry. you're not really voting for impeachment. guess what? the ads make themselves. they're all going to face ads that say you voted to impeach joe biden. in districts that are very

competitive where they have voters who will say but what did you do for me? i'm sorry, they're gonna go home at the end of this week having not really finish their work, but they had time to vote to impeach, unimpeachable in inquiry for joe biden. as they're gonna square up? >> the speaker was asked today, what do you want your biggest accomplishment, these two years, to be? he said increaser majority. it was no legislation, no policy, it was all political. we want to increase our majority. that's where they're trying to do. >> but there is a big part of the base that suggests democrats to this very thing to trump and that he rebounded effectively because they thought there was no reason to impeach him. they're certainly not the same level of reverse engineering by fire, but that's the concern about how this might play both ways. do you see that? >> i see something slightly different, which is, remember all of the moderate republicans and republicans like joe walsh who migrated away from donald trump towards joe biden or just

in both cases. >> you could argue that trump did something and then there was an impeachment. we could debate about how serious it was. this is an example, laura, where they're going to impeach and then trying to find out of biden did something. >> reverse into engineering. not one of us has a uga? there you go. >> what do you have, bs? what do you have? engineer? >> i'm not an engineer. >> at some point i'm trying to make. >> we got, do we wear with, you [laughter] . >> karen finney, joe walsh, think very much. the point is we're not engineers. be sure to check out tomorrow the town hall with vivek ramaswamy. don't miss dana bash's joint interview with nikki haley and chris sununu who just endorsed her. that's at noon on inside politics. ukrainian president zelenskyy

is coming back into washington. and anti-came today. but this time it was a very different washington and lee see. he did not get the warmest reception. so what has changed since the last time he came to make the case for aid in his fight against russia? some are obvious. some not so. we'll dive in next.

>> putin is banking on the united states failing to deliver for ukraine. we must, we must, we must prove him wrong. >> president biden trying to make the case to skeptical republicans to push forward. more military, more economic aid to ukraine. his plea coming doing ukrainian president zelenskyy is now third visit to washington, d.c., since the war. and he came with his own sales pitch. the difference this time? an increasing number of americans are no longer interested in buying in. we see this purple line? that shows steady growth and how many american say the united states is paying too much, and it may not be that surprising. when you look at the actual map of ukraine. the yellow shows ukraine's

gains in the recent counteroffensive. you perhaps would not be wrong in asking, is that it? but we would be wrong, perhaps, to think a bit that myopically. and small gains are raising big questions, like how much of an impact giving more aid would have an idea. republican congress are holding up a new aid package and trying to tie it to increased security in the southern border. regardless of what you believe, the war in ukraine does have huge implications. it's about determining america's role in what's happening across the world are what we do or don't do doesn't just impact other countries. it also influences the shape of our lives here at home. i've got just the rate the guest to talk about all of this because here with me tonight, former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, bill taylor. so glad you're here, ambassador. it is such a different perhaps washington that zelenskyy's has now come to. i want to go there with the question. there is pushback.

if there is no aid, and ukraine succumbs to russia, what next? >> a great question. first of all, in europe that will mean that russia is right next to poland. and right next to romania. it's already right next to lithuania and latvia and estonia. but russia will be that much further into nato's area. if russia challenges nato, we are obligated, we are committed, we're obligated to support our allies. people will be asking, at that point, i think people will be asking, who lost ukraine? where were the people who were supporting ukraine at the beginning, as you said, when president zelenskyy was there the first time, standing ovations in the congress? they will say what happened to that? ukrainians have been fighting bravely for like 20 months.

you remember, people thought they wouldn't last a week. >> very confident about the military might of the russian army, only to find the unbelievable heart and strength of ukrainian military force. >> unbelievable heart and strength. that's exactly right. and her support was crucial. and europeans. let's be clear. europeans have provided as much or more and we have at this point. yes, we do more weapons, they do more overall in terms of support. but the ukrainians have done themselves, without any u.s. soldiers, they don't want our soldiers, they just need the tools to be able to push the russians back out. if they don't, if the russians are able to overcome them because we get tired, and we let the ukrainians down, this democracy who wants to join europe, then the people will ask, because that? >> but it's the why. you heard in the town hall earlier hosted by jake tapper

with governor ron desantis, he says you have to take care of your own home first. that's a common refrain people talk about the aid that goes to other places. taking care of america first, whether that's the phrase or not, when you have been an ambassador in trying to be that liaison between these two countries and entities, how do you balance the need to provide at home in aid and also address the need to create and provide those buffers? >> you absolutely have to do both. there is no doubt that we have to be secure here in the united states. we are more secure if you are obese secure. and europe is more secure if ukraine is the buffer, is the block between europe, the rest of the europe, nato europe, and russia. that's what ukraine is doing right now. that's number one. we are more secure. but number two, we can do both. we have a defense budget. that defense budget is to protect us, make us more secure in the face of two big enemies.

frankly the russians on the chinese. that defense budget is focused on that. 5% of that defense budget is what we have given ukraine. so for 5% of our overall defense budget, which is designed to secure us, to protect us from russians, when the ukrainians are doing their job. >> really quick, i can't help thinking about putin, what has been going on, when you see the attention that the world has shifted toward what is happening in israel, in the israel-hamas war. now the conversations around aid for both ukraine and israel. putin stands to gain further divide's attention. >> absolutely doesn't has. i'm glad you're paying attention to this issue right now, and i'm so glad it has come back into focus, at least with president zelenskyy's visit. you're right about the different reading, but he has re-focused a lot of our attention on something that is necessary now, the assistance

is necessary now. >> really important to think about one action today, with the domino effect will have. you can bet your bottom dollar that military operatives are thinking about the next step in the next step in what we do here, and the time is running out in congress to do this very calendar year. really important here your perspective. thank you. >> thank you laura. >> ambassador bill taylor, everyone. thank you so much. also news right now, and we'll be right back, and the very latest on what is happening next.. >

>> breaking news, the israeli army says seven of its soldiers, including a battalion commander, have been killed in a single incident in northern gaza. it's eight soldier died in a separate incident on the tuesday according to the army. one of the biggest losses of life in a single incident for israeli forces on the ground offensive began in earnest are not to over 27th, and takes the total number of soldiers killed since october 7th 212. i want to turn to a minnesota man who is free tonight after

spending nearly 20 years in prison for a crime he did not even commit. marvin haynes was 16 years old at the time. he was sentenced to life in prison of 2005. the police charge him with the murder of a flower shop owner during an attempted robbery. this week a judge overturned his wrongful conviction on the basis of unconstitutional witness identification. the judge writing, in part, quote, there was no physical evidence linking petitioner to the crime scene. there was no dna evidence, fingerprint evidence, physical evidence, surveillance evidence, or other forensic evidence. marvin haynes, now 36 years old, has always maintained his innocence, and he joins me now. marvin, good evening to you. i can't imagine what you must be feeling to know that it took nearly 20 years but tonight you

are a free man. tell me about what that moment was like, marvin, when you first heard the news. >> thanks a lot. thank you for having me on your show. i appreciate you. i thought it was joyful. i was extremely overjoyed with emotion. i knew this day was going to come, but i had no idea how it was going to come. i got the news on my birthday, only 36th birthday. i will never forget that day. my lawyer called me and said that my sentence was vacated and i'm an exonerated man. i'm just so appreciative of the new administrative's in this county and through my lawyers, the innocence project, the great north innocence project, they saved my life. the evidence there was to show that i was innocent for 19 years. >> just to reiterate, not that you were released early, but

you were exonerated. you did not commit this crime. they had recognized this. but 20 years of your life. so the age of 16, you are now 36 years old, i just wonder, first, how this all started. did you reach out to the innocence project? did you reach out to certain attorneys to say i need help to convince and persuade and get everything filed? under that relationship even start? >> i was sentenced to 33 years, which is life in minnesota, plus an additional charges for assault. i went to prison and i had no idea about wrongful conviction. i thought i was the only man who was wrongfully convicted at the time. i was dumbfounded about wrongful convictions. i didn't even know what exoneration means. so i was lashing out. i was innocent. so when i got to prison, i went

to the hold and i read about the innocence project and they looked into my case and the scene that i was innocent and they never stopped fighting for me. i'm so appreciative. >> you obviously i see the smile on your face, you seem like you are still, i see it right now, it's coming, i know you can't help, and i don't blame you for smiling. >> can help. it >> i know. >> who could blame you? i'm smiling watching, you just knowing that you had the opportunity to be free and to have your name cleared in this way. but i do wonder, how does the mind stay positive? you must have had some very dark times over the last 20 years knowing that you did not commit this crime. >> i can't even describe what i've been through. dark can't even describe it. it was fate the got me through that and it was just perseverance, relentless, i was relentless.

i was never going to stop until i got justice. when i got wrongly convicted i told the judge, i am an innocent man, and i'm not gonna stop fighting until i get justice. i do this at 16 years old, i told him that. it's just a shame that these people that are supposed to be for justice, administrated this injustice and send a child to prison. it's just a shame that it was like this, but in the past and looking in the future, and i'm an exonerated man. i'm happy about that. >> i'm happy for you, marvin. and if you smile is any indication, your future will be very bright. mr. marvin haynes, nice to meet you. congratulations. >> thank you. thank you so much. >> up next, the civil rights icon that you might not have heard about. the director of the new movie rust and joins me to talk about the incredible life of bayard rustin, who helped organize the

march on washington.

>> that was the new movie west ansley, plays mayor bayard rustin, an unsung hero of the civil rights movement, a black, man quaker, who never apologized for who he was. nonviolent tactics and organize what you are talking about there, the march on washington. a little more than 60 years ago. shady me, now the director of that film, george c. wolf. i am so happy and delighted that you are here with us today. i have always been a very big fan of your work. so thank you for joining us. this, of course, is no exception today. this, actually, could be an oscar winning performance for colin domingo. i'm just curious, what was it about bayard rustin the push to to make this movie in particular? >> i think he was a phenomenal figure. a phenomenal american. he was curious about other people. he was very inclusive.

he believed so deeply and so fundamentally in democracy that you also it because of that love of democracy, any place you found that was not living up to the standards, he would challenge it. and spent his whole life doing that. and so he's a phenomenal figure that we all should know about and celebrate. >> i want to play another clip. here's the scene between bayard rustin and then executive director of the naacp. >> gundy brought an empire down to its knees. >> someone please tell this man that this is not india. for decades the naacp has been illegally leading the charge and i am proposing 100,000 black folks invade washington d.c.. and you talk to martin about this? >> i lost his number. he lost mine. >> well dr. king, who hasn't lost my number, it has come to understand that mass lobbying is sheer madness. >> it's the crowning glory of this organization, yet all across the south, when you grow children sleep, they see white

ugly signs instead of their dreams. counting on the courts to eradicate racial inequity, that's madness. >> that is so revealing. number one, i see that voice, i know that faith, i see you have some strong actors in this movie as well, including chris rock, who of course we saw. but organizing the march on washington, you see there, no walk in the park. it didn't just come together with the snapping of the figure fingers. talk about the fight to get the idea off the ground. and of course the skill in bringing together people around this idea. >> bayard rustin was a brilliant organizer, in the thing that just saw in response to the violence happening in the south john kennedy presented a bill that was ready to become the civil rights bill but he unfortunately died before passing. it lbj did that. and bayard and the various civil rights leaders were

concerned that the dixiecrats in the south would dilute the bill. they decided bayard would lead this march to celebrate and you know to celebrate american democracy and celebrate the need to move forward with what was happening in the south and to make the muscle that was democracy stronger and bolder braver. this coalition of people that were all committed to the same cause and beliefs in w naacp, the court, other organizations, so he was fighting in congress and so they all came together. they came together in essence and the organization, the organizing of this event was led by bayard rustin. they have been many march on washington, but this was the first time it was put together. and bayard did it with a group of kids. i mean 18, 19, 20 years old, and they organized it in eight weeks. >> we are in a very trying and

divisive time. even when i say that, i'm being generous. to have this seem to be looking backwards. but really not in the rearview mirror. it's really in the forefront of our minds. rustin himself was a huge proponent, in spite of these things going on, of nonviolent action. we are seeing threats and acts of political violence all over this country. what should our nation take away from his approach? >> i think we should take away the fact that the understanding that living in a democracy doesn't mean that you get to experience that which is great about it. you have to be engaged in makinge that the muscle that is democracy is protected and honored and fought for and fought for passionately. fought for does not mean with weapons or guns but with heart and with conviction and with making sure we elect the people who need to be elected and

using the power of the vote and using the power of our hearts to make sure that we take a stand and that we have -- >> so well said. you talk about the muslim democracy in tandem with the heart being our strongest muscle. that's not coincidence. george seawolf, what a pleasure getting a chance to speak to tonight. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> and thank you all for watching our coverage continues. >> the five weeks into the iowa caucus, vivek ramaswamy joins -- a presidential town hall, vivek ramaswamy, tomorrow night eight pm eastern, only on cnn.

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, tonight on 360, with ukraine's president in washington seeking more an