which have decided that the petitions are invalid or against those who say a petition should be granted, kick him off the ballot, there's such a disparity that the supreme court will have to find some way to say this will be our standard practice going forward. you just can't have some presidential candidates can run in some states and some cannot in others. that's really the issue is the process. has there been a process? so there has not been. adversarial process. there's the january 6th committee report but i don't think anybody seriously will say that process stood up in cross-examination or anything else. that's going to be the issue. so we'll see. >> yeah. a lot weighing on this supreme court. it's hard to see how they don't take this issue up now. i'm kaitlan collins in for wolf blitzer. we'll be back at 9:00 for the source as we continue to talk

about this breaking news of donald trump removed from the ballot by the secretary of state in maine. our coverage continues with erin burnett "outfront" right now. "outfront" next, breaking news. donald trump removed from maine's ballot. we are reading through this decision right now. plus newly revealed e-mails and audio recordings showing how team trump made a chaotic and frenzied push to overturn the election. and five years in russian captivity. cnn has new exclusive audio of paul whelan making a desperate plea from behind bars directly to president biden. let's go "outfront." good evening. i'm erica hill in for erin burnett. breaking news tonight. donald trump kicked off another state's 2024 ballot. maine's democratic secretary of state just moments ago issuing a decision which bars trump from

that state's ballot. she cites the insurrection ban. the decision can be appealed in state court. an appeal that is almost guaranteed given trump's legal team had already demanded the maine secretary of state recuse herself from the matter, pointing specifically to tweets she wrote saying trump had engaged in insurrection and should have been impeached. trump's attorney said she showed bias by prejudging the matter. this follows the same decision and michigan, minnesota, arizona, and new hampshire. the colorado republican party saying it has asked the supreme court to overturn that colorado ruling. many legal experts expect the supreme court will settle this issue for the entire country. paula reid is "outfront" with more on this. i know we are all going through this right now. what more are you learning? what do you see here in this decision? >> maine now becomes the second state after colorado to ban trump from the ballot based on section three of the 14th

amendment of the u.s. constitution. let's break down exactly what that says. under section three, it holds that office holders who engage in an insurrection are barred from future ever holding office in the future. but while it lays out some specific offices, it does not specifically mention the president or the presidency. so we have seen this question of trump's eligibility based on the 14th amendment litigated across multiple states with different outcomes. again, this has been litigated across half a dozen states but maine and colorado are the ones that have concluded he should be removed. others have opted not to remove him. initially even colorado said look, it doesn't specifically say the president so this should not be applied to him even though that state in a trial found he engaged in an insurrection. that has been appealed at least by the republican party of

colorado to the supreme court. when you have a state split like this over a key constitutional question, that is really the right time for the supreme court to weigh in. though they have been asked again by the republican party of colorado, former president trump has not yet filed an appeal with the supreme court in colorado. obviously it's too soon to do that in maine but we expect he will likely appeal in that state as well. it would be something that would be beneficial for all the parties involved here to get clarity from the supreme court because we've seen in minnesota and michigan even though we've said we're not going to ban him from the primary ballot, they left the door open for this issue to be relitigated. we're waiting to see if they weigh in and this maine decision on hold until the supreme court reveals if they're going step in and offer clarity or not. >> we even heard from secretary of state in michigan on the heels of this decision saying specifically i would like to see

clarity and finality from the supreme court. so we will wait for the supreme court to tell us whether they're taking it up. paula, thank you. stay with us. i want to bring in ethan, who's one of the main residents who challenged trump's eligibility for the state ballot. he's also a former democratic state senator. he's on the phone tonight. appreciate you being with us. first of all, just your reaction to this decision from the secretary of state. >> good day for democracy. good day for our constitution. the law in the united states should apply to everybody no matter what position you hold or held and our secretary of state today after you know, clear objective deliberation made the right call. as i said, democracy was served. >> i don't need to tell you this, but for the folks at home, this is the next step in maine is an appeal. it's likely as we know. when we look at the similar challenges that have been out there, a challenge succeeded in colorado to take trump off the

ballot, which has paula was going through, has been appealed. likely to go to the supreme court. are you confident this decision in maine would be upheld in a maine state court? >> i believe so. the issue of whether donald trump is an insurrectionist can either now two ports that have deemed him an insurrectionist and now there is the judicial body in maine that oversees hour secretary of state. three different judicial bodies. two of them have determined that the 14th amendment clearly applies to the former president. so i feel like our courts will recognize. look, anybody who watched this saw it was an insurrection and saw his involvement in it and if you read the 14th amendment, it's absurd to imagine that the 14th amendment would apply to every elected official in the country but the highest officer. so i feel like, i haven't read all the details of the decision yet. it just came down. but from what i hear from our attorneys, people feel very good about the decision. well reasoned, well thought through. >> you've heard in other states

when it comes to the pushback that given the fact that the former president has not been charged, that jack smith did not specifically charge with this, there is some skepticism as to whether or not this would play out the way you said it did and would rather and whether this does in fact apply. how do you respond to those allegations? >> well, there's two ways. number one as i just mentioned, two courts have deemed he incited an insurrection and now one of our constitutional officers in maine has deemed the same thing. so three bodies have now deemed that he was an insurrectionist. so it's false to sort of claim he's never been charged with that and found in essence guilty of that. yes, there has not been a criminal charge around it but you know, doing research about the 14th amendment, there was no crime for insurrection that was on the books back in 1868 when this passed. they understood what

insurrection was. didn't have to have it on the books and they didn't charge any of the confederates with it and yet jefferson davis, and other confederates, were not allowed to hold office. i think those arguments are pretty weak in the end. our constitution is clear. you cannot violate our constitution and violate your oath and then run for office. that piece should be held i think no matter what. >> really quickly, the clock is ticking. super tuesday, maine goes to the polls. 45 days. this needs to be settled by january 20th to get the ballot in order. are you confident that will happen? >> well, i hope so. this ruling is a very strong ruling. we hope this will be upheld and maine will not be placed on the maine ballot. hopefully they will rule very quickly. >> ethan, appreciate you jumping on the phone with us tonight. thank you. >> thank you. also tonight for you, a cnn exclusive. new audio and new details about the great length the trump

campaign went to to overturn the 2020 election. including talk of chartering a private jet to bring fake elector certificates to congress in time. all of this revealed in e-mails and recordings from pro trump lawyer, kenneth chesebro, the architect of the fake elector scheme. according to chesebro, the trump campaign's top lawyer was frantic after learning from another top aide that fake elector certificates from two key battleground states, michigan and wisconsin, were stuck in the mail. >> the trump campaign is freaked out that roman reported that the michigan votes are still in the sorting facility in michigan. doesn't look like they're going to get to pence in time. >> a frenzied scramble. this is just two days before the election. the scramble to get the documents to then vice president pence by any means necessary including looking into

chartering a private jet to washington to make sure the fake certificates would arrive in time for the election certification on january 6th. >> so the general council of the campaign was alarmed and was chartering, they didn't have to charter a jet, they did commercial. >> the stunning details almost certain to figure prominently in the case jack smith is building against donald trump. paula is back with us "outfront." what more can you tell us about these new details? >> let's start with what this new reporting means for the federal and state investigations. we know that the fake elector scheme features prominently in the federal indictment against former president trump. now, we've also learned that some of the people involved in these, this specific incident have spoken with federal investigators. now, this instance is, it's vaguely referenced in the federal indictment but at this point, it's unclear how

prominently it will factor in any eventual trial. that case is currently on hold while the former president appeals some of the larger constitutional issues. now ken chesebro is an unindicted coconspirator in the federal case and our colleagues have learned his lawyer actually reached out to the special council in october before he entered a guilty plea in the georgia case but they haven't heard back. smith basically left him on read. he has not responded and it's unclear if that means that they don't want to use him as a witness. that they think there are credibility issues or are just putting the coconspirators to the side and focusing on trump. but i want to remind you, chesebro is also a key cooperator in other states. he has entered a guilty plea in georgia. also spoken with prosecutors in michigan, nevada and wisconsin. >> appreciate it. thank you. "outfront" now, karen, a former federal prosecutor who worked with jack smith and john dean, former nixon white house council and watergate whistleblower.

karen, we're going to get to all of the new. we've got a lot of new. let's talk about maine nofor a moment. what do you makeover this decision by the secretary of state saying that donald trump cannot be on the ballot there? >> so, in order to run for president, you have to be qualified under the constitution of the united states and there's many different requirements to be qualified to run for office. you have to be at least 35 years old. you have to have lived in the united states for at least 14 years. you have to be a natural born citizen. if you recall, trump tried to claim that barack obama was not born in the united states. and another example is you can also not run for more than two terms and we were talking about any of those qualifications, right, if it ever came out that donald trump wasn't born in the united states or if he had served two terms in office, we wouldn't be having these

decisio discussions. so this boils down to because the 14th amendment specifically addresses this issue about if you've engaged in an insurrection and violated the constitution, if you can be, if you can, if you're qualified to run. and i think this really just boils down to whether or not two things. whether or not it applies to the president and i think that's one of the issues that the supreme court's going to have to settle and what type of process has to happen in order to find you like a due process. do you have to be convicted? what is it because there's no doubt if he did engage in an insurrection that that disqualifies you from running for office. so it's interesting this is being treated so differently from these other objective factors. >> when we look at this perhaps not surprisingly we heard frequently from the trump campaign slamming this decision

saying in part quote, biden and the democrats simply do not trust the american voter in a free and fair election. we're hearing this, hey, leave it up to the voters to decide. put somebody on the ballot and they're tell you whether they should be in office or not. >> well, they like to ignore the constitution, we know that. i think the maine decision is very solid. it was fully briefed. there is ample due process in this proceeding. and they just lost. by a straight, honest reading of the 14th amendment. trump's in trouble. he's in trouble wherever this is raised and addressed. so yes, the supreme court is going to have to weigh in on it. i want to see those strict constructionists and originalists get around that language. how are they going to do it? i don't know. it looks so applicable erica, i don't know what they can do with it other than take him off the ballot. >> it will be fascinating to see what they decide.

i want to get your take on this new reporting from cnn about from kenneth chesebro. it really gives us more robust understanding of this scheme and the trump campaign's involvement in it. we know he's cooperating. this is also a window into that cooperation. karen, how damaging do you think this new information is to donald trump? >> so that's an interesting question, right? donald trump is going to always say well just because everybody else was scrambling and my lawyers, they told me i could do this, right? that is how he will try to push this off and blame others. but i think this scramble to get these fake elector ballot, the fact they were going to go to such great lengths to charter a plane if they had to to get this to mike pence. it just really dwgoes to show t desperation and what was going on at the time around this. but i think it's interesting that jack smith has not taken

ken chesebro up on his request to cooperate with him and that he doesn't seem to be interested to hear what he has to say and if you remember, ken chesebro's apology letter in georgia, if you want to even call it that, is basically not an apolly letter. he basically regrets doing it which is kind of what he's saying here, too. he regrets it because he's being thrown under the bus. so until he comes out and says donald trump knew he lost the election. we were doing this any way to try to steal the election from the country. i'm not sure how valuable chesebro ultimately is to jack smith. >> john, what do you make of these details of this new reporting? >> i think karen's point is well taken. chesebro seems to have lots of regrets. he also regrets that the lawyers for the trump campaign appeared the desert him at one point and he turned on them. we seem to now know his motive for coming forward and pleaing because he was not going to let

the other ones point the finger at him. this is not unusual in a conspiracy but we don't always have a record of it but he's clearly explaining it for the prosecutors in michigan in those recordings. so we have a little bit more insight. the reason i don't think jack smith has talked to him, he's got such detail already without maybe a troubled witness that he doesn't need to go there. >> john, karen, great to have you with us tonight. thank you. "outfront" next, nikki haley scrambling to explain after failing to mention slavery as a cause of the civil war so will that gaffe define her campaign going forward? plus, donald trump e's campaign has a new look. is it working? and another russian official and putin ally, dead. the 46-year-old just the latest lawmaker to mysteriously die since the start of the war in ukraraine.

new tonight, nikki haley failed to say slavery caused the civil war. she's spending today on damage control. >> of course, the civil war was about slavery. we know that. that's unquestioned, all the the case. we know the civil war was about slavery. but it was also more than that. it was about the freedoms of every individual. it was about the role of government. >> those comments coming less than 24 hours after she was asked the question that started this all.

that simple question, what caused the civil war. it came at a new hampshire town hall. >> i think the cause of the civil war was basically how government was going to run. the freedoms in what people could and couldn't do. >> in the year 2023, it's astonishing to me that you answer that question without mentioning the word slavery. >> what do you want me to say about slavery? >> you've answered my question. thank you. >> eva is "outfront" in lebanon, new hampshire. these comments really dominating the coverage of nikki haley today. >> it sure is, erica, and perhaps beyond the coverage is the response from voters here on the ground. we heard from one here in lebanon, new hampshire, and he asked her sort of a very forcefully, he said this is a chance to redeem yourself from last night's question when you tripped up on slavery. will you categorically say that

you will not be trump's running mate and she did not categoringly reject it. she only said she doesn't play for second place. she's not in this contest for vp. something she has said time and time again. so the blowback does continue here. not only from voters but from her opponents on the campaign trial. let's listen. >> i'll make it easy for you. if someone asked me what the cause of the civil war was -- it's easy. it's slavery. >> i noticed that nikki haley has had some problems with history. she's asked a very simple question and responded with just a really incomprehensible word

salad. >> and she will maintain she continues to have momentum here on the ground. she spent the day campaigning with the governor and she is addressing a crowd of folks here in lebanon with a packed audience but she will continue to have to sort of make sense of all of this. >> appreciate the reporting. thank you. "outfront" now, harry, former democratic member of the house of representatives and jonah goldberg. his wife previously worked for nikki haley. harry, i want to start with you. when we look at nikki haley, she has wibeen surging in the polls. it's been a good couple of weeks from her. you saw something today though that really stood out to you. what was it? >> if you look at google searches and sometimes they can be a leading indicator, today was the day she was more

searched outside of a debate in the last six months so clearly something happened in the last 24 hours and more than that, the state she was most searched in was in new hampshire. the state you mentioned where she has had some poll momentum and if you look at the term that's been most closely associated with her in the last 24 hours, it's slavery and the civil war. i don't think this is the area sh she wants to play on especially as she's trying to gain more momentum and potentially overtake donald trump in the polls. >> so given that, we're looking at obviously new hampshire first primary state. the iowa caucuses. is this a problem for her moving forward? >> well, it's a problem for her today. it might be a problem for her tomorrow. frankly, i think that this is partly the product of a really slow news week. she screwed up an answer. it was a bad answer. i don't really like her clean up stuff on this either but it's very difficult to make the case. there are a bunch of voices on the left that want to make it

sound like she's racist. when she took down the confederate flag. she appointed tim scott to the senate. she was on the opposite side of internal republican fights in south carolina. she's the children of immigrants. i think this is one of those things where her real mistake that is that she gave a real political answer. i think it has to do with one, muscle memory from having to talk about this stuff in south carolina and two, because she is trying to speak libertarian in new hampshire and give some sort of live free or die state kind of answer. and it just sounded like she got too clever by half, too cute, and thought she was trying to anticipate gotchas from the trump world and the media and she messed up. i don't see how this is going to have legs when she's said what everybody wants her to say and it's just not that interesting a

story. >> you noted she's had to discuss this, what i heard was tiptoe around it in many ways. in south carolina. bacari, the two of you served in the house of representatives in south carolina. as she was trying to clean this up today, she said that basically everybody understood slavery was part of the civil war. that doesn't need to be said out loud. >> i'm from the south. of course you know it's about slavery. i guess if you grew up in the south, it's a given that it's about slavery. >> she said it's a given but it's important to note when she was pressed on it last night, she deflected. you've served together. were you surprised by the answer last night and what we're hearing today? >> i'm not surprised by the answer last night. second, i love jonah, but let me also articulate that in south carolina, we're not necessarily intellectually dishonest about

our history, but we know nikki haley very well. we're both from a small county that is probably 15,000 people total. we sat beside each other. our desks were beside each other in the state house. i remember in 2010 when she gave a very similar answer. so to say this was some type of fumbling just in this moment, that's not the case. i would actually say that nikki haley is immensely talented. i've said that time and time again. i think she's one of the most talented politicos of the entire country. the problem she has is that she oftentimes doesn't stand for much and when the light shines brightest, she can see that. let me just also go back and say one more thing just, i have to say this. because my good friend said it. nikki haley did not take down the confederate flag. that also is something that is a part of her bravado, her resume. nine people died in the church including one of my good

friends. nikki haley takes credit for that, but in order to take credit for that but then in the other breath say that she does not necessarily understand or this was a mistake because we know that in 2010 when she was running for governor, she said the same thing. so her problem is a lot larger than just this -- >> bacari? to that point, can i play a little bit? we have some sound from 2010. it would be interesting for folks at home to hear. this is from our good friends at k file. this an interview from 2010. take a listen. >> i think you have one side of the civil war fighting for tradition and another side fighting for change. >> tradition versus change. >> on individual rights and liberty of people. >> john, i think you were about to jump in. >> i didn't say the people in south carolina are dishonest about their history.

i said she comes from a branch of the republican party that was opposed to a lot of intellectually dishonest neo segregationist jack wads on the right wing side of the republican party and she had to deal with that in primary politics and in republican politics in south carolina. a lot of those republicans were up until recently lifelong democrats who moved into the republican party. it's a complicated state. a complicated history. i don't like her answers but the idea that somehow, like the fact that she doesn't say it was about slavery, which is wrong and kind of dumb, does not necessarily, there's not a transient property there to say therefore she is somehow racist. i think bacari's criticism -- she's not like bill clinton who liked to take a position to people on both sides. bill clinton used to say i

smoked marijuana but didn't inhale. that's the rap against her and i don't think it's fwgoing to las long. it's hard to explain to a normal person. the scandal, controversy, she didn't mention slavery but then said of course it's about slavery. >> i don't think she's racist. i think a lot of people may. that's not the conclusion that people who know her would make. i saw her at after she went to all nine funerals in charleston. i wouldn't dare say that. this is separate from the conversation we're having. we both may get blasted for that on twitter but that may not be x or whatever it's called. but she is not prepared to take on, she's flying too close to the sun. she's not prepared to take on someone who stands on business as the kids say or stands on their ignorance as i would say

in donald trump and would double down on their ignorance. she's flailing. digging a deeper hole. she's not prepared for the moment. >> we're going to have to leave it there. >> she's done better than all of her competitors than trump so far by actually being a good politician. i'm not defending what she said, i just don't think it's this incredibly damning thing. >> i have to cut you off or we'll all going to get in big trouble. also, harry has done a really good job of sitting here, so good job. gentlemen, thank you all. we'll continue this. "outfront" next, the breaking news. new details tonight from the maine secretary of state's decision. that decision to remove donald trump from the ballot. and new audio of paul whelan begging president biden for help today as he marks his fifth year in russian captivity. >> please to secure my release as you would do if your own son

had been taken hostage. >> the cnn reporter who spoke to him is "outfront."

maine's secretary of state deciding moments ago to remove fo former president trump from the state's 2024 ballot citing the insurrectionist ban.

what more do we know about this decision? >> the trump campaign saying it will file a legal objection to this decision out of maine. one thing that is unique about the process in that state is that the first stop for questions about ballot eligibility is the secretary of state. not the courts. now that decision is then appealed if you would like to the maine court system but it's unique that this goes to an official who in this case is a democrat and tonight, of course the trump campaign is seizing on that and attacking her personally, accusing of her quote trying to interfere in the 2024 election. that is the argument they have made for pretty much all of president trump's legal troubles. but at the core of this case, one of the questions that has been appealed to the supreme court is whether state officials have the authority to remove people from ballots. the first question is of course if the 14th amendment, section three of that amendment applies to presidents. another question is if it does, do state officials have the power to enforce that or is it up to congress and then another

question that has been posed by the republican party of colorado to the supreme court is whether you're depriving a political party of their first amendment right if you remove someone. so even though the statement from the trump campaign is somewhat hyperbolic on the attacks on the secretary of state, the core are some serious constitutional questions for which we have no answer. >> we'll be watching and waiting. thank you. also tonight, the time for a diplomatic solution is running out. that is according to a member of israel's war cabinet. all of this as the fighting is intensifying on a second front. hezbollah launching simultaneous attacks on israel's northern border. the idf telling cnn 50 launches were detected today alone. 20 fired toward the biggest town on israel's lebanese border. elliot is following all of the developments. put this in perspective when you

look at this escalation along the northern border. >> the united states has from the beginning of israel's war with hamas been trying to deter hezbollah, which is an iranian proxy based in southern lebanon by having warships and aircraft carriers in the eastern mediterranean and also trying to persuade israel from exercising restraint. now, so far, that kind of seems to have been working but we have seen missiles, rockets, drones being fired from lebanon from hezbollah towards islamrael on daily basis. in one incident today, air raid sirens were set off by a drone being fired toward one of the most important cities in israel. the home of israel's biggest port. so things are still simmering. we're not quite at the point where we have another northern front. another full blown war going on between israel and hezbollah, but the problem here is that no one really has much leverage over hezbollah aside from iran.

the lebanese government doesn't. and the united states certainly doesn't either. so it's either reigning in hezbollah or israel threatening to do what it did in the words of a member of the war cabinet, which is essentially if hezbollah does not pull back, then israel will make it do so. back to you. >> appreciate it. thank you. with us now, kristof, he is also on russia's most wanted list. and former assistant secretary of state under president bush. as elliot just laid it out for us there, it seems there are two answers here. either iran pulls back or israel. how do you see this playing out? >> well, if you're talking about the northern front against hezbollah. i think we need to understand that he said on october 10th that he wanted nothing to do with this fight. i think what's happened is he

expected this to be short, brutal, that we'd be on to the process now of returning hostages to palestinian prisoners. i think we got well beyond that point and he needs to as he believes is the leader of the -- he needs to ramp this up a bit. i don't think he's serious about an invasion but -- needs to be worked out pretty quickly. >> hezbollah funded of course by iran. you've actually been investigating this connection here between iran, russia, and the hamas terror attack on october 7th. what have you found? >> separate facts from what we hypothesize at this point, but what we found with my colleagues from since february of this year, there have been continuous trips of russia's units, particularly a unit that is very, very focused on submersive accidents,

assassinations and expellosionso tehran. that has been sort of a tendency. we've seen that start in february of this year and it has continued until september and then we see that members of this unit, of the intelligence, also were absent from russia exactly at the time of the attacks on israel. so looking into where they went but what we see at the moment is a very strange preference of russian intelligence officers to spend time in iran. long stretches of time. stretches of time that are consistent with training, for example. i don't think iran was training russians. it's most likely the other way around. so the question was that linked to what happened on october 7th. we'll find out in the next few days i believe. >> fairly quickly. we know you'll come back to us as you have that. we have the idf today saying it

regrets the harm that was caused by a strike that the hamas-run health ministry says killed dozens of people in a refugee camp this week. an investigation revealed that buildings near the target were also hit during the strikes which likely caused unintention aharm to uninvolved civilians. how does something like that happen? can it be avoided? >> look, we've gone through this many, many times with the american army as well with iraq and afghanistan. when you're firing the amount of rockets, missiles and dropping the number of bombs, inevitably mistakes will be made. clear that part of the mistakes made were part of intelligence. some may have been some bad hearing. we can only hope the israeli defense force investigate to get to the bottom of why these mistakes happen and hopefully avoid them happening again in

the future. >> when we're looking at this, there's also this news this week, hearing differing reports, explanations from hamas and iran's revolutionary guard in terms of the explanations for the october 7th attacks and so there's been a little back and forth. hamas coming out again. what do you make though of this back and forth and the fact it's coming up now? >> it comes up now because iran chose to take credit for it and it chose to take credit for it because it was pressured domestically to explain how it's fw going to respond or has responded to the killing and most recently, the killing of the brigadier general. so i think it was a forced decision to come out and claim responsibility. in the hypothesis that russia iran plotted this, it would have been very deniable. it was supposed to be top credit. dedicated to hamas to take full credit for that and they did that and want to do that for domestic reasons. suddenly, it seems that iran is

breaking from that deal because it needs to explain to its own populous what it's doing to avenge for the death of these important generals. i think this disconnect is kind of predictable because they have different mote vivations here. >> thank you both for your time tonight. "outfront" next, exclusive new audio from paul whelan as he marks five years in russian captivity. >> your mind, your body, your soul. >> and also this video that will likely make you very happy you were not on that flight. >> oh, stop it.

tonight, rare, exclusive new audio from an american held inside a russian prison. he tells cnn today his conditions in prison are getting worse. he was arrested in moscow on espionage charges which he denies and is now serving a 16-year sentence. "outfront" now, jennifer. you spoke with paul whelan again today. the two of you had also spoken last week. tell us more about those con ver says and what he's told you about the state of affairs right now. >> well, there's definitely a sense of frustration and

exasperation from paul whelan at the fact that he is still behind bars in russia. five years after he was detained. now he told me it's surreal he is still in this situation. that he cannot believe that two administrations, the trump and biden administration, had not been able to secure his release and you can tell he's getting increasingly concerned that he may not see freedom. that he may be left behind again. he he was not included in two prisoner swaps last year. russia refused to negotiate for them. he said it's very difficult to deal with the fact he is there. he may not see his his parents. they're in their 80s. this is what he says of his own mental state right now. take a listen. >> start the day with singing the national anthem for my four countries. and things get progressively worse from there. but, you know, there are people i speak to.

i make calls home. i write letters. i read books. but it's extremely difficult being innocent and in prison and waiting for people to help you. you know, it's a disintegrating experience. your mind, your body, your soul, everything. >> and so, erica, i've been speaking to him over the past two years over half a dozen times, and he is definitely -- this is the most frustrated i've heard him about his situation right now. >> he also had a direct message for president biden. what did he tell you? >> that's right, he had a very clear message today on the fifth anniversary of his detention. he wants biden administration to pull out all the stops to bring him home. these were his exact words. >> to return home and counting on the u.s. government to come for me and soon. the time is now to take decisive action and bring -- president

biden, please use every resource available to secure my release, as you would do if your own son had been taken hostage. >> and now, i should note that the biden administration has said they are working tirelessly to bring home paul whelan. secretary of state antony blinken put out a statement last night saying this is something they take day to day, that they are not going to rest until he comes home. we know the biden administration put forward an offer to the russians for both paul and that was rejected by the russians. >> jennifer, i really appreciate the reporting. thank you. joining me now is paul's brother, david whelan. you just heard your brother there. you heard him pleading with president biden to use every resource available to do this as what he would do if your own son had been taken hostage, paul's words there. he says he feels forgotten. i know he said that before. today it must ring differently. do you agree with him at this point, that he has been forgotten?

>> i don't think so. i think unfortunately paul, his mental health is breaking down. his resilience is starting to crumble, and that's not unexpected after five years. unfortunately, i think no matter how tirelessly the u.s. government wishes it could bring paul home, without the cooperation of the kremlin, it's unlikely to happen. so there is very frustrating point with paul's situation where he may have to last another 11 years, or some part of that before the u.s. government is successful bringing him home. >> you mention those efforts. and jennifer just alluded to the state department saying russia had rejected this new and significant proposal is the way it was characterized to secure paul's release. are you aware tonight of any other deals that may be on the table? >> i'm not. and i'm a little bit concerned. i think our family is concerned that we have seen concession made to the russian government, concessions that the russian government had been very clear that they wanted and that were

in the control of the u.s. government. but now the u.s. government is having to look to third party allies, other countries to create concessions that the russian government might take. and i think what we're realizing now is that the u.s. government really doesn't have a clear plan of what it can give to the russians that the russians want in order to bring paul and perhaps mr. gershkovich home as well. >> how does that sit with you as his brother? >> well, it's hard. there is always the worst case scenario, which is that paul has to be there for another 11 years of injustice. and that would be unfortunate. i think the thing that is now worrying paul and worrying all of us, can my parents last another 11 years so they can see their son again? i think time is our enemy, all the way around. >> paul there in his conversation with jennifer describing his daily life in prison. he called this a disintegrating experience. your mind, your body, your soul, everything. and that seemed to be your

assessment too of where he is at right now. what more has he told you or your family? >> well, i think we are starting to see things happen to paul that had not happened over the last say 4 1/2 years. the physical assault at the end of november really put him on notice that his physical safety was not guaranteed, and up until that point he had really only been attacked once by a guard at the pretrial detention facility. that is something that he is now concerned about that he wasn't before. the deputy warden is starting to try to shake him down for protection money. so while we are able to make requests to the prosecutor to investigate all of these, he is really on his own. the nearest american consul officials are eight hours away. they can't get there. they can't intervene in these things until something happens. >> dave, we appreciate the time tonight. and your insight too. and i hope the next time we speak, i know i say this every time, but i hope the next time

we speak we have better news about paul. thank you again. >> me too. thanks, erika. "outfront" next, this is a flight you would have been very happy to miss. not only does it look bad, but listen to the audio here. >> oh, oh, oh, oh! stop it!

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tonight, if you have turns issues, this would be the wrong flight to be on. kind of tough to stick that landing when you were dealing with the conditions at heathrow. you see this flight wobbling side to side. everything seemed okay we're told until the plane was seconds from touchdown and the winds really started to howl. some of the gusts by the way clocked at up to 70 miles per hour. this was a flight from l.a. to heathrow in london. and while that's tough to watch, what's kind of remarkable too is when you add in the audio reaction as this plane is coming in for a landing. take a listen. >> oh, oh, oh! oh, oh, oh stop it! oh, oh! >> sums it up. remember to put up your tray tables, everything under the seats. thanks for