good morning. so glad you're with us. i'm poppy harlow with phil mattingly. take a look at live pictures, you are looking at donald trump eva have a golf course as he

prepares to head to court in the nation's capital. we're 90 minutes away from a crucial hearing where three judges will consider is trump immune from prosecution. trump's lawyers will be arguing that he has absolute immunity as they try to get felony charges against him thrown out for january 6. >> trump has chosen to be at this court hearing with just six days left until the iowa caucuses. he is not actually required to be there. c campaign and court converging. thursday he will be at the civil fraud trial that could dismantle his business empire. we have team coverage of the very consequence shtial day. let's start with indiccaika polantz. voluntarily deciding to show up. we know the court and campaign are all one at this point in time. what do we think that we'll see

today? >> reporter: we'll see the former president here, he will be attending these arguments as a krcriminal defendant but himsf a member of the public. he will not be speaking. these are legal arts that are important because they are asking questions of this court and they are trying to get answers about the constitution and the presidency that have never been asked for or answered in this country. so the main question here, is there an immunity around the presidency, around someone like donald trump who served in that office and now facing criminal charges for actions he took while he was still that office holder after the 2020 election. is there protection of him where he is not able to face charges or go to trial. does his criminal case get tossed. and on top of that, there are additional questions about was what donald trump was doing after the 2020 election, is that part of the presidency, is is

that part of the campaign. and is this one of the rare issues where donald trump or any criminal defendant can actually take this through the appeals court and get an answer from the supreme court before before they sit for trial. so a lot of major questions. what you will be hearing are the two attorneys arguing. donald trump's attorney and also the attorney from the justice department and then a lot of questions from three judges. >> thank you very much. >> and now let's bring in laura coates and kaitlan collins. when this idea of the case was thrown out, you thought that is insane, that won't work. they are just trying to delay and postpone and put things off.

but could it win the day? >> i think it is unlikely that court would find that the president of the united states has absolutely immunity. this is not a decision about whether or not an insurrection or crime was committed. this is the legal question can the president of the united states be absolutely immune for anything they did while they were in office. remember when trump used to say i could question on fifth avenue and shoot someone? this is now can i be on pennsylvania avenue and do it because that is the white house's location. this is coming down to the legal query, not really the facts about the underlying alleged crime, but they could have some conditions on it. they could say no, if it is a presidential act. and so then what would that mean? is it somebody who is trying to faithfully enforce the law? hey, i believe that law is being broken by voter fraud, i want to enforce that. does it tip away from being fair

when it is actually because i didn't win the election? this is a tough panel. i've been before judge pann, a former prosecutor, and this is a very serious so not a walk in the park. but the idea of a king in nerk? problematic. >> that is what judge chutkan said, you don't have the power of a king. trump thinks that he has the broadest possible presidential power. but talk about how extraordinary it is, six days from the iowa caucuses, trump will be in the appellate courtroom making this argument. >> and i think that if it was another criminal defendant, they would say that i'm going to show the judges that i'm serious about this, that i'm serious

about showing up to this. but that is not what is happening today. is this this is a calculated political decision where he knows it will get coverage. you won't see it, but he can hear what his attorneys are arguing, the questions that the judges are asking. and he will be able to use this in fundraisers and political speeches as we've seen him do with nearly he have over aspect of the indictments and charges that he is facing. he use it is to his political benefit. and his republican challengers have been frank about this. ron desantis believes this has distorted the republican primary and boosted trump and hurt the other republicans. i think for trump's team, he does insist on coming to this. they are expecting the judges to be highly skeptical and ask a lot of questions. and that could potentially indicate where this is going. >> tea leaf reading like what we do normally with the supreme court cases. does trump's legal team think

they have a pathway to the sbreek? >> it is not even whether or not they have a pathway. just the idea whether they go to the supreme court is enough for them. what they are trying to do is delay this. even if it does go to the supreme court and trump loses on the merits of this, if it is long enough, if it goes on long enough, that is a victory for them because if it goes past the 2024 election and he wins, he can get rid of these cases. so that is what they are seeking here. but i don't think it is -- it is dizzying to look at all the legal issues. today could affect the timing of all of this. >> and also consequential for the country. not beyond this election for presidentss to come. not sure that the supreme court will take this up. what i think is interesting, people assume that they will take up big constitutional questions. if there is not a split among these three judges could they

just say i'll leave it there? >> the supreme court does not want to be involved in a presidential election year. you've got chief justice roberts who is like unless i've got unanimity, i want no part of it because it will make them look more political. bush v. fgore is still embed he had in the court. but they could also keep their hands clean and say look, we don't think you have immunity. they could decide not to review the case. so lower court stands. so just well, they said that so we'll go with it. i think though this is a very important question. that is why trump is there. he is kind the attitude i'm not scared, i was there in new york, i'll be there at the appellate court. this is not where you normally see a defendant in an action. but they will be asking

questions to your point, but those questions are really also for themselves. judges are trying to ask questions to try to persuade or ask and influence their other people on the bench. they may ask a lot of questions to appear skeptical. they may want to appear as though, which they are supposed to be, and i hope they are, objective. but at the end of the day, they will try to pick apart the arguments on both sides. they might already have an idea what the constitution says or doesn't say, but i think this is an opportunity to see what the defense will say. why do you think you have double jeopardy attaching for the impeachment? not a criminal proceeding. why do you think you have absolute immunity for these things? and by the way, it is just a delay tactic. the court does not like games played in their courtroom. >> political and legal calendar, if you look at it over the course of the next few months -- >> hurts your eyes. >> yeah, looks like the weekend sports calendar in the mattingly household.

clearly they believe inside trump's team that the political and legal benefit him. do the schedules ever diverge for them? >> it could be a nightmare very much in the courtroom and what happens with the general election. that is the argument. it is beneficial to trump in the primary, but it won't be beneficial to him if he is going up against joe biden. so susie wiles is a shrewd political adviser and is running his political and legal orbit. so i think that she probably means it when she says it. but also trump himself sees the benefit about it, he posts about it constantly. and just yesterday he is arguing that he has presidential immunity and nothing that he can do as president that he can be prosecuted for, but if he wins the white house back, that joe biden will be indicted. so it just -- arguments like that that are just coming out repeatedly. and i think that is something

his legal team is watching. they want to make legal arguments, they don't want to make political arguments. so that is also i think a factor in all of this. >> and don't forget, this might be voluntary for trump today, but if they think he does not have immunity, he goes into a criminal trial and he has to sit and that calendar becomes all the more nightmarish. but at 11:00 primetime, i have the nightmare schedule. but thank you all. >> we are honored by your presence in the morning. and i'm grateful for you. >> had to give it to you for a second. thrilled to see you. love all of you. >> thank you so much. we appreciate you coming. we'll see you in less than an hour, special coverage of trump's immunity appeal, you will have to watch. and right now secretary of state antony blinken is in israel meeting with top officials. we have new reporting on what

the israelis are telling blinken about their plans to try to get hamas to release more hostages. >> also people from new mexico to maine are bracing for a storm with potentially dangerous tornados. a possible large and dangerous tornado hit near panama city, florida about 90 minutes ago. and in the midwest, up to a foot of snow could fall and winds up to 70-mile-per-hour could create overnight conditions. waves hit the coast. the rain could trigger flash flooding. stay with us.

new this morning one of israel's best known actors and singers has been badly wounded while fighting for the idf according to his family. he is from the breakout netflix series in which he played an israeli specials soldier. and hospital officials say he is in critical condition this morning. his father does say that they do expect him to recover. wishing him all the best of course. happening now, secretary of state antony blinken is in tel aviv meeting with top leaders and israeli war cabinet. earlier this morning he met with benjamin netanyahu in his private military base office. israel will tell him that they won't allow palestinians to return to northern gaza unless they release more hostages. and just this morning a hamas leader said no more hostages will be freed until all

palestinian prisoners are released from israeli prisons. joining us now, the reporter behind the reporting. thank you for joining us. you have so many new developments. let's begin on the hostages. that is quite a demand now coming from hamas where your reporting in the last 24 hours or so has been that potentially israel had some leverage here at this point to try to say, look, you can return to the north of gaza if you release more hostages. where does it land? >> good morning. so i think that as we can see the negotiations over new hostage deal are ongoing but parties are very much far apart. and because they are far apart, each side is trying to give more and more demands to try to somehow break this log january an isrealis came up with the new demand because they knew that

the secretary of state antony blinken is coming to israel to ask for a beginning a return of palestinians to their homes in the northern gaza strip where more or less the idea has finished its military operation and israelis think, at least from what i hear from israeli officials, that that is their leverage to try to get hamas to come to the table and soften their position and say we will allow palestinians to go back to their homes only as part of this new hostage deal. for now it doesn't seem to move hamas but talks are still ongoing. >> i can't imagine u.s. officials will receive that idea of leverage moving back to the north well. do we have any sense of where they stand on this? >> yeah, i agree. i spoke to special u.s. of-- i spoke to several u.s. officials. and so ahead of the blinken trip, several came to israel to

prepare the trip and started hearing this talking point. one u.s. official told me that this is an absurd demand because at the end of the day, you need to get palestinians that are in southern gaza, more than 2 million palestinians, you need to start getting them back north. and as long as you don't do that, humanitarian crisis in southern gaza will k3 exacerbate. so i think that blinken will tell the israelis very politely as he usually does that this is a no-go. >> the killing of a senior hezbollah commander now before in your reporting last night, israel didn't claim responsibility. now we know an israeli strike was behind it. what does that tell us about what is happening between idf and hezbollah specifically in the north? will this become a two front war? >> i think that we are very

careful of saying that there is a two front war. but honestly, we have to admit that there is. what we've seen in the last few days between israel and lebanon is much -- sorry, between israel and hezbollah is much more significant than what is going on in gaza. much more significant. just half an hour ago, israel killed another hezbollah official who is in charge of hezbollah's drone forces in southern lebanon. and this happened several minutes after hezbollah attacked the headquarters of the idf northern command. this is serious stuff. so i think the situation is very fragile, very dangerous. the prime minister, acting prime minister of lebanon just said a few minutes ago that they got messages from israel through the u.s. that said do you want what is happening in gaza to happen in lebanon. he said we don't want that, but we need to go back to the table

with some sort of negotiation. but the only problem is that the government of lebanon is not really in charge of what is going on in the southern parts of the country. >> barak, thank you as always. >> thank you. protestors interrupting president biden's speech at a south carolina church. >> ceasefire now! ceasefire now! >> underscoring complications inside the democratic bases, the president trying to re-energize it now. and jimmy kimmel eviscerating aaron rodgers. watch. >> aaron got two as on his reportrt card, thehey were boto the worlrld aaaaron, okay?y?

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saw something on january 6 we'd never seen before even during the civil war. snu insurrectionists waving confederate flags inside the hall of congress for hours. defeat of the former president sat in the oval office and did nothing. nothing. absolutely nothing. losers are taught to concede when they lose. and he's a loser. >> that is president biden yesterday warning voters in south carolina what a second trump term could do to democracy. he spoke at the mother emanuel ame church in charleston where a white supremacist murdered nine people. and this comes as biden is

losing some key report of african-americans, support that helped him win in 2020. >> and joining us to discuss is former deputy campaign manager. and also the senior political analyst and historian. the setting and backdrop of yesterday is so critical because it is the cornerstone constituency of certainly the biden coalition in 2020. there has been softening in the polling and questions about the message. when you watched the remarks yesterday and how it dovetailed with the democracy message, do you think it is an effective one? >> it is effective and also a necessary message, but i don't know if it is the message that will translate and unite the base in the way that the biden camp needs to unite the base right now. it is important that biden acknowledge what happened in

2015, it is important to go as part of a general relationship -- very strong relationship he has with senator jim clyburn. it is really important for him to make that acknowledgement, to make a direct tie to the murder of parishioners, the church xwoers, but also to this idea of the threat to democracy. so ex-police ily saying white sup supremacy matters. and i think that biden handled it well, but because we saw the protests break out, we know that there is a very important part of biden's base that is not receptive to this idea of democracy as a threat. so for them, they are not making the connection. they are in some ways rejecting the connection because we are in this larger global crisis and they see what is happening with israel and gaza. so perhaps it is a message necessary for the campaign, they

have to do it, they have to stand on that, but it is not enough about. >> and having been as close as one can be so the biden operations, i wonder if you think leah has a point. >> i'd say i don't think that the protestors negate the power or the effectiveness of the overall message. these were obviously people who feel strongly about the situation in israel and the war with hamas. no question there is energy and anger and frustration about that situation. and frustration with biden and the biden administration for the way they are handling. i'm not saying that is not true. of course it is. but across the board, remember, that was an audience, you saw an audience that was incredibly engaged and enthusiastic about what bipartisaden was saying. and we've sign this is a message that connects. it motivates base voters, that the sense of urgency around what trump is trying to and the way

he is wielding white supremacy and encouraging political violence. we've seen that certainly motivates the democratic base, the coalition that biden needs to rebuild to win. but it also speaks to more moderate voters. there was a "washington post" poll that showed that 80% of people are concerned about the rise of the political violence in this country. so i think that there are certainly elements of the anger around the way the administration is handling the situation in israel and palestine that the biden team needs to acknowledge, but i don't think that the votes yesterday negates the message overall. >> and i want your take on something we heard from the former president yesterday as it pertains to the economy. take a listen. >> we have an economy that is so fragile. and the only reason it is running now, it is running offer the fumes of what we did. when does it crash? i hope that it is during the next 12 months because i don't want to be herbert hoover.

the one president i don't want to be, herbert hoover. >> by your take, i meant how quickly do you clip that and use it in a campaign ad if you are still in the biden campaign right now? >> well, immediately. i mean, here you have donald trump arguing that he wants to see an economic crash, that he wants to see the economy fall apart in a way that will hurt middle class families, it will hurt everybody who is working hard in this economy. this clip does two things. it lays bare the fact that donald trump only cares about his own political fortunes and himself. he's said many time this is campaign for him is about receipt ri a retribution and re and it shows how little he cares about what happens to people. two fundamental weaknesses that the biden campaign can and should exploit. >> michelle obama was speaking

in an interview and talked about her fears. and i want your take on this fear particularly. here it is. >> what's going to happen in this next election? i'm terrified about what could possibly happen because our leaders hear. who we select, who speaks for us, who holds that bully pulpit, it affect uses in ways that i think people take for granted. and we can't take the democracy for granted. those are the things that keep me up. >> and she was speaking on a podcast. and you made a good point that this is far beyond her fears. >> right. so in a lot of ways michelle obama's words and her fathers actually make sense. there have been a lot of studies done especially after around the 2016, 2020 election that showed that black women had the highest level 6 anxiety around the election results. in part because they know the effect that liberal policies or

the erosion of civil rights could have on their day to day lives. not only that, it is not just a fear, it actually for many of them, it came true and we have seen the erosion of many of these rights. affirmative action, reproductive rights, maternal rights, economic rights. so i think part of what michelle obama is trying to tap into is a reminder that there is so much at stake. with that being said though, i think that obamas have to be care because it is also true that many of the anxieties have arisen during str administrations. it is not just donald trump. the leaders in this country are eroding the vet fabric of democracy. so it reminds people that it is not just donald trump.et fabric democracy. so it reminds people that it is not just donald trump.t fabric

democracy. so it reminds people that it is not just donald trump. fabric o democracy. so it reminds people that it is not just donald trump.fabric of. so it reminds people that it is not just donald trump. but there are other leaders under whose guidance people have seen mass erosion of their rights. >> thank you both. appreciate it. tomorrow at 9:00 p.m., jake tapper and dana bash will moderate the republican presidential debate in iowa. and donald trump left his golf course to appear in court. we'll have live coverage as soon as the hearing begins. and perfect finish to a perfect scandal-filled season. the team up north, you might call it greaeat for themem. congraratulations.s.

he's got itit. and he barrels in and maize and blue on the brink of ending a championship drought. hail, hail michigan. they are the champions of college football 2023. >> season started with controversy, ended with a coronation. i want to focus on the controversy for the next 25 minutes. jim harbaugh suspended twice, six total games. breaking rules, potentially -- >> is this where you are? >> i'm such a sore loser. the wolverines are in fact college football national champions but the as riterisk ip there. >> and they had the win over the washington, d.c. huskies. coy wire caught up with the stars after the big win. >> what does it mean some.

>> everything. everything. my teammates most importantly. michigan nation. finally brought it back home. >> national champion. how does that sound? >> no one can ever take that away from us. >> joining us now to talk about the big win, well deserved win, cari champion. good morning, friend. >> good morning. wonderful to see you this morning. i don't know why phil is -- there is so much ire here. >> sorry i care. like i'm not going to apologize for embracing a rivalry and acknowledging the fact that harbaugh was suspended twice. >> yes, self-inflicted, but they were battle tested. you don't want to hear about it. >> no, i actually do. >> this is what is interesting. i find his story so fascinating about. i'd love to say i think that he doesn't deserve this and there needs to be as risk, but what he was able to do, what that team was able to do more specifically

this season, not so much even harbaugh, they believed. and they felt like they had to play with a huge chip on their shoulder because people said they didn't deserve, they were cheaters, doing all different things. >> all true. >> yeah, i'm sure you agree with. so here they go, their defense was lights out last night. and i felt like washington couldn't stop them. they ran the ball, they ran the ball, and then at the end the day, harbaugh family, their legacy in coaching to me is more than defined. his brother has the number one team in the nfl. his father was the coach. jim played at michigan. the story lines are aplenty. so they deserve -- hate to say that to you, but poppy you understand. >> i totally understand. my dad is a michigan alum. >> you get it. >> but staying on football but totally different realm, what is going on with aaron rodgers right now? >> or always actually. and i'm not very -- i'm not a

fan of aaron rodgers for a few reasons. oftentimes he takes it off of the sport and makes it about him. so most recently, he has this huge blowout with sdwrjimmy kim because he doesn't like what jimmy is talking about him. but aaron has decided in so many ways that he is the enlightened one and he gets very upset when he can't control the narrative. and i've noticed that about him since he was in green bay, now he is a jet. and so he has to try to control the narrative. and what usually happens is that he appears as if he wants to be elevated and better than others. and it doesn't work out in his favor. >> can we play the sound? listen to it. >> a lot of delusional people honestly believe i'm meeting up with tom hanks and oprah at shakies once a week to eat pizza and drink the blood of children. either he actually believes 9/11

was going to be on epstein's list, which is insane, or the more likely scenario is he doesn't actually believe that, he just said it because he's mad at me to making fun of his top knot and his lies about being vaccinated. >> the latter has been the working theory. we haven't heard from him, he is supposed to be on the mackey show later today. only thing we heard in a press conference saying that next season the jets need to keep all the distractions out of the locker room. weird for aaron rodgers to say. >> he is full of distractions. by way of background, he goes on pat mcof aack caffey's show eve week. and it was such a prolonged painful experience for sports fans because he made it about him the entire time. and what he has been known do is criticize other people and he gets it off. and so we're thinking enough is enough and good for jimmy for firing back because we're tired

of your arrogance. play football, sir. my opinion. >> there you go. and we'll listen closely to what he says today. now this, this is news close to home for us here at cnn. one in eight women in america will develop breast cancer in their life. one in eight. sit with that for a minute. yesterday our very close friend and colleague, someone who i think it is fair to say is beloved by everyone here at cnn, she revealed that she is one of them and she bravely shared her battle with cancer. why? because she wants to help save more women. >> i have never been sick a day of my life. i don't smoke. i rarely drink. breast cancer does not run in my family. and yet here i am with stage three breast cancer. it is hard to say out loud. so to all my sister, black and white and brown out there, please for the lover of god get your mammograms every single

year. do your self-exams. try to catch it before i did. >> and the numbers speak for themselves. and black women are 41% more likely to die from breast cancer than white women. 41%. sara is in the middle of her second month of chemo and the plan includes radiation and double mastectomy. but in her announcement, but the extraordinary woman that sara is, she thanked cancer for choosing her and she explained why in a conversation with abby phillip last night. >> when i walk up in the morning now, i'm just thankful to be awake. literally like when i was seven and eight years old when you woke up excited, i wake up excited. i get to come to work today. i don't feel sick. i get to work out today. i get to see my friend. i get to hang out with abby phillip. i get to talk to people who are incredible minds on a daily basis. my brain has changed. and i'm so filled with with

gratitude. filled to the brim with gratitude. and i honestly had to one morning wake up and go you know what, thank you, cancer. because i didn't see life like this before. and i do now. >> the epitome of grace and grit. >> we had the lovely experience to do the the new year's eve show with sara. and i'll do my best not to cry because i'm a cry baby. but she shared with me that she had it. and i said i just -- she's a great woman. and obviously she'll be fine, but it is just a reminder of what we should appreciate in life. >> she is beloved. >> and there is no colleague that everybody loves more in the world. and also no badder chick on the planet. which is why i have so much confidence in the years ahead for her and all of us.

appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. sorry about the tears. >> don't be. but everyone heed sara's message. absolutely. this morning nikki haley is surging in new hampshire. new poll shows how much ground she's made up against donald trump. more when we come back.

welcome back. you are looking at live pictures of the courthouse where donald trump will arrive. his lawyers will be arguing that he should have immunity for efforts to overturn the 2020 election. and meanwhile a new cnn poll this morning shows nikki haley cutting former president trump's lead down significantly in new hamp hampshire. down to single digits. trump stands at 39% in the state and haley now just seven points behind him at 32%. it is a 12 point surge from 20%

that she held there in november. >> and harry enten is joining us. polls are a snapshot in time, but there is a clear tread line here. >> yeah, closing that gap. she is up to 32%. look at that, a 7 point margin. look back here, it was a 22 point margin. ron desantis now just at 5%. and the question is why has nikki haley closed the gap in the poll. i think that gives you the reason. undeclared voters, they can vote in the state of new hampshire. and they will fueled upsets before. now nikki haley with a clear advantage, 43%, christie at 23%, trump back at 17%. back in november, she was just at 25%. it was a three car horse race. .

>> and donald trump could be in new hampshire but he will be in a courtroom that he doesn't need to be in. talk about politically why he's there. >> why is he in the courtroom? this sha give you a reason why. trump's two biggest days for under if raising, one was when he was being arraigned in manhattan court. and the other one when trump was booked in fulton county jail the day of the infamous mug shot. both of those days he raised well over $1 million. and to me it does seem like these indictments have definitely changed the course of the race in terms of fundraising. look how much trump raised in the last quarter. this has been fueling his fundraising, that is why he is there. >> harry enten, thank you very much. and we're standing by for that his ttoric court appearanc. more straight t ahead.

in a matter of moments former president trump will be raving at federal court for his appeals hearing. he left his golf course in virginia a few minutes ago for court. and he is not actually required to attend court. >> joining us on all of this, josh barrow, and also our political analyst and historian is back at the table with us. leah, i want to start with you

on the historian side of your brilliance. this argument that trump's lawyers are about to make that he is choosing to be there to witness, what does it mean for history either way that it goes? >> with many things with donald trump, it is historic. it is a first of many things. we've seen i think some similar things around richard nixon. he would probably be the closest in any event. but nothing on the scale of what donald trump is offering today. what his lawyers are arguing. essentially saying that anything that he did under the rubric of the presidency he is immune from prosecution. with richard nixon, it was something different, it was about a very specific standard and be forced to turn over things to the independent investigation surrounding the case of watergate. so what trump is trying to do is something radically different and his lawyers are trying to do. and in fact it would actually change because what it would

mean going forward is take any president can be held to any kind of criminal standard or investigation or kind of consequences outside of impeachment if we say the presidents have immunity for anything that is done in office. now, on the one hand, i think perhaps it is a question that we need to investigate. it is one that his lawyers are trying because it is a relatively good legal question that needs to be answered for many years, we've had questions about the actions of presidents while in office. but we've never actually gotten to is this criminal, is it civil, can they be held liable. now we're answering that question. and i have to say, while i'm sure that the independent counselor jack smith is pretty pissed off, it has been a roller coaster with donald trump, but i'm also sure that he wants to get an answer to this as well. like stop wasting my time. if i need to be here, i'll be here, but if i don't need to be here, let's abolish this moving

forward. we don't hold presidents to that than standard. >> the merger of the legal and campaigning has been effective. you can see in the poll numbers since the case back in april. do you see at where that diverges? >> i think it is different in a general election than a primary. there is a lot of sympathy among voters who think that he is being railroaded. i thought harry's point that it helps him raise money, i think that is interesting. in a general election, most voters have an unfavorable view of donald trump. if he is to win this election, it will be by winning voters of unfavorable view of joe biden. he will win them over by attacking the president for having allowed prices to go up too much and chaos at the border and all that sort of thing. >> and if you look at the calendar, should he be the

nominee, and if these tries go relatively on schedule now, he will have to be in the courtroom. >> yeah. >> and even if it might not behoove him in a general, he will have to be in a criminal case. >> i think the spring trial is unlikely. other issues that are percolating that may be considered before that can proceed. but it looks likely that it will go to trial in the summer if things proceed in a fairly ordinarily manner. so, yeah, not only during the campaign, it could be in the highest part of the campaign. this won't be a short trial. so, yeah, it could dominate the general election campaign season at exactly the point when voters are paying enough attention. >> enough to pivot off it? >> he's run a smarter campaigning i think this time. partly by keeping a lower profile. one interesting thing in court, he has not been campaigning very much. he is running sort of rose garden strategy even though he is not the president. he is sending his sons out to campaign on his behalf in iowa.

but i think that by keeping a low profile, it deprived the primary focus on him. and focusing on the negative of how joe biden has been president. obviously it is intense in the sense that it is bizarre, but in terms of the level of efforts, if it remains low intensity in the fall, i think that will be weird and interesting to see how that works. >> weird and interesting. yeah. that is about right. thank you,you both. and the special coverage of the immunity appeal starts right now.