all right so what happens and donald trump's immunity hearing. it comes down to just one word, i will tell you what it is. tonight on laura coates live. >> ♪ ♪ ♪ >> today's word of the day, take that miriam webster, is concede. meaning to admit that something is true or valid, after first denying or resisting it. why is that the word of the day?

because the court of appeals heard a major concession, see what i did there, from the lawyer from a former president who has refused to concede that he lost the election, and he did lose that election. before today trump's lawyers were absolutely, what's the word, adamant, totally convinced that the president has absolute immunity from trump's conduct while of course he was in office. they wouldn't even budge on this point. well, first they wouldn't budge. right out of the gate with question from one of the judges in the federal court, they were forced to make a powerful concession, that of course there is not absolute immunity meaning, you can never charge a former president for action taken while in office, if it was criminal or otherwise? they could see that you can prosecute under certain circumstances. and they only admitted that after the judge gave them a whole string of hypotheticals,

there's only one legitimate truthful answer -- >> could a president who ordered sealed him say who ordered assassinate political, who's not impeach would he be subject to criminal prosecution? if >> he was impeached for so your answer is no? my >> answer is qualified. yes >> a qualified what? then a qualified yes. >> sometimes a judge throws you a softball, and moment where you answer questioning yes or no, see what you're working with. are you delusional attorney can keep a straight face while making any argument, whatsoever no matter how absurd the argument would be? or are you reasonable, willing to admit that one in one really does equal to? but instead, a qualified yes. over the mere thought of a president of the united states, we call our president the

leader of the free world. they can assassinate a political wry rival, that was the humming hall, in the qualification. was that worth the credibility of the other arguments you want to raise. this is where common sense has got to come in. place you call and lawyers for a lot of things, but some of them require common sense of every person who knows what yes and no actually mean, and a course the hypothetical. they must be willing to admit audience, if you do not do that. you will lose your credibility forever, in front of the court. with donald trump, back to my word of the day, he refuses to concede that which is obvious to his advisers, obvious what jack smith tells you, he refuses to concede, he refuses to concede and amid that he lost the election. and the conduct taken, is probability of a magic. >> i did nothing wrong, absolutely nothing wrong.

>> i use the word problematic, it's up to a jury if it was criminal or otherwise, but trump's council who says jack smith who opened pandora's box. >> to authorize the prosecution of a president for his official acts, would open up pandora's box, for which this main nation may never recover. you can indictment biden after he leaves when office, after mismanaging the border allegedly. >> let's stay with the theme of pandora's box, i like greek matt-ology, let's talk more about it. jack smith believes he's closing presidents box, because if you give a president carte blanche, democracy dies. the question is, politically speaking, why now? i mean we know why now, for legal reasons, because court of appeals had arguments today. why does trump double, triple,

quadruple, why does he does it again? because we're only six days from the iowa caucus. because he knows, of course he knows, that taking his campaign to court makes this polls go up. quite the inverse relationship. remember, how he fundraised offers mugshot in georgia? i know. does he genuine believe he's entitled to immunity? i'll tell you what, he's entitled to knowing what the court will find here, and what they will decide. does every member of the electorate deserve to have an answer as well? i want to bring into brilliant legal minds to help again out the arguments that we heard today, the ones that we did not hear today. i've got norm isn't, senior house judges or a special counsel, at the first impeachment higher. harry lippman, former federal prosecutor. i'm glad you're both here to help us understand what simply into making the case for both sides. yes gentlemen, it's time for

you to do some devil advocacy in my mind, we only heard the arguments my mind. i'm gonna have both of you, walk me through in the audience, what the best arguments, maybe ought to have been? the strong points? the weaknesses as well? and i'll have you flip, i like the game play. i begin with you norm, i want you to take the side eye i paint you a little bit trump lawyers. if you don't mind? how do you respond to this doj argument, on what presidential immunity when me? listen to this. >> it would mean that if a former president engages in, assassination, selling pardons, these kinds of things in isn't impeached, and convicted there is no accountability for that individual. that is frightening. >> that is the doj argument, what is this response from the

trump team, what caught it to be. >> the government is distorting the we'll establish roofs the united states supreme court's articulate in the case of naked nixon v fitzgerald, it's already the lawyer honor. that a president is not immune for these wild hypotheticals we've been hearing, the united states supreme court has that a president's immune for their official acts, if there was an assassination, or all these things. that is not an official act, that is beyond the bounds. we simply want to take this well-established rule that works, it is in civil cases, it should apply in criminal cases, the danger to the normal function of our country is greater. we don't want bush prosecuted, we don't want biden prosecuted, we don't want to bomb a prosecuted for ordinary activities. we don't want president trump prosecuted either. but, let's just apply the rule,

we're not even you asking you to prejudge the rule this car refuses to apply the rule let's see how it goes please remand to diss report so they can follow common sense. >> let's hear from counsel for the government, we'll have you play that role harry, you've been attorney before what's the argument? >> with respect my friends, stridency its lack of confidence. we have the as the rules, we've never had occasion to do this one, because presidents haven't broken the law before. but the difference between a republic, that punishes its highest officials after they left office, this is not while he is in office, which could be a problem that after they left office, not only is there no reason to withhold the criminal process there's every reason because that is, the delineation between a rule of law in a rule person a rule of autocracy as my friends client would want to establish. you >> want to rebuttal? >> you are honor we don't

object to that, there is a rule. the supreme court has set official acts protected unofficial, is crazy seal team six assassination, not protected. i reject those hypotheticals, i simply want the law to apply to have that balance for the normal functioning of the presidency. >> tell me, now we've heard both the sides quickly, what do you really believe harry? >> i believe my position, no one believes my position but the main thing is, nobody is talking about the civil law and now we're talking about something was really something great in the other side, a criminal violation. but >> that is the standard for the civil up, but we're talking about crimes. >> we're talking about double jeopardy, let's go down there. i think it's important. is your phone on? you might get a call from the president. i don't know if you have it on? should i give you number. >> you know laura, i practice law was john morell who is a a criminal defense lawyers we have to make those impossible

arguments. i really thought they did not do service to the president today. but now the president's new lawyer, harry lippman. >> you're gonna play trump's lawyer to the issue of double jeopardy, the concept you cannot be prosecuted twice for the same crime. they are arguing the impeachment qualified as the first instance of a prosecution, and now this prosecution by jack smith is the second iteration. make your case. >> it's the impeachment judge cause your honor, very specific. it says if you have been, impeached and then convicted. then you can be tried criminally. it is not by the way some kind of wooden distinction. what you have is that is happen, a political judgment across the whole spectrum of american life. otherwise what you have without that kind of protection, is exactly president biden indicting president trump, what

we were worried about. we need that kind of judgment, by congress as a whole to greenlight a very grave action, that is a criminal prosecuting a former high official. >> what's your response to that, of course we heard from senator mitch mcconnell as an example after the impeachment, the second impeachment that he was almost expecting there to be a criminal backstop here, trump's lawyer says indifferent what is your statement? >> your honor i happen to have my pocket right here with me, it doesn't say what my distinguished friend claims it does. what it says here, a party convicted in an impeachment trial shall nevertheless be subject to prosecution. with a real pen it looks like nevertheless. >> not only if, it which is so often the case and it saddens me. it is so often the case, the

counsel for president former president trump, is turning the facts and in this case the law up sigh down. there is no such thing and frankly, it is frivolous it is not worthy of this distinguished advocate the even try to make this argument. >> rebuttal of? course >> he misconstrue what i'm saying, it's not the logical point it's the political policy point of having some threshold judgment, it's a very serious thing to indict a president, by the quality is a whole. it's not the nevertheless argument, that someone else did make today. >> let's have big pitcher gentlemen, it takes a great and brilliant legal mind to both do what you have done, devil advocacy to think about it, the reason we did this is because there are reasons to have and know the legitimacy of the underlying argument. we can't dismiss them all right, the court is grappling with this. big picture, what does you take away from today, knowing the concession has been made, and they are doing under review?

now >> two points the concession was atrocious. he was a dead man walking after that, it really does destroy is a whole clean. at the top level, trump is losing. but i did see kind of ripples below where the judges were talking among themselves, trying to figure out the right standard here. if they depart even a little bit, from what judge chutkan has said they might remain, and my concern is there potentially occasion after judge chutkan applies what they tell her to do, a new round and more delays. that is the work. they didn't seem to be talking to themselves and trying to puzzle out the right answer. >> rebound of course means going back to laura cartridge to decide. >> here the, lose apply. the >> big picture takeaway from today? >> donald trump conduct here is so extreme in attempting to keep a hold of the oval office

after he lost an election, that his lawyers were forced to back away from the kind of reasonable common sense answers, and defend a completely untenable position, because only by distorting law can you justify, what donald trump is alleged to have done and what i believe there is strong proof of so they couldn't take a reasonable position because if they had it would result in a concession when they get back to the district court and they get in front of the trial judge and ultimately the george-y. >> look gentlemen, i will take at both under review. i love being called your honor, thank you both it's been a pleasure. >> you heard donald trump lawyer say that could open what, pandora's box. but isn't the box already open? i will talk to a democratic congressman about what the political consequences, of all

of this. and believe you me, there are plenty.

pandora's box, floodgates. few of the terms used to argue the implications of what it would mean if you had absolute presidential immunity. >> to authorize the prosecution of a president for his official acts would open up pandora's box, from which this nation may never recover. the notion that we're all gonna see a floodgate, i think the careful investigations in the clinton era didn't result in any charges, the fact that this investigation did. doesn't reflect that we are

going to see a sea change of and did vindictive-for-tat, prosecutions in the future is reflects the fundamentally unprecedented nature of the criminal charges here. >> so the real question could this cage unleash political prosecution, persecution as john mara argues when it comes to donald trump. we will talk to congressman glenn ivey, a democrat out of maryland. he's a member of the house judiciary committee. he also served as counsel to senator paul, in the whitewater investigations as well. always glad to have you here. i hate to exhaust this term pandora's box,'s been you so much today. i'm gonna ask you about it. one side says, it will open pandora's box. if you don't give trump or presidents immunity, other side saying no, you have to close it by withholding immunity for actions that are criminal. who is right here? >> i think you have to make sure you have some criminal

responsibility, the argument that trump's lawyers make today were just went farther than they needed to go and hit the point of being a bit ridiculous, frankly, that's why they were voluble the stream hypotheticals, like seal team six killing rival. i do think that there's gonna be continued to be some level of immunity for presidents, and every other public official, like police officers doing things in their official duties as long as they're acting in the proper capacity, and proper role. trump scenario, you just have conduct after conduct that is way beyond the scope of frankly, any other presidency has presented to the country. that is why he's got 91 criminal charges over his head, as well as a couple of civil verdict against him as well. he is a bad case to try to use to set limits on presidential,

immunity i think. >> i like your example in terms of law enforcement, you are right to point out when most of the conversations have been a ban immunity for someone who is a law enforcement official, or a member of the executive branch, which is what long for smith falls. you talk about qualified immunity, there we recognize times official action never be prosecuted. then there are times with someone who has gone broke, and trying to decipher when it is official when it is not at the crux of this issue is this something that you think is clear to the courts, or what the rules are interned of what is presidential behavior, and what is campaign behavior, and as he says, i'm just trying to faithfully execute the laws and enforcement. i think there's voter fraud. >> i think that issue at some level, it's something all electoral officials a deal with, we of lines we can't cross.

for campaign conduct, political activities, those are separate from official activities. if your member of congress, if your governor, you have to keep it separated out. the presidency is should be even easier to do, he has entire staffs around the campaigns, and the personal and presidential office to help you draw the lines, to make sure you don't cross them. in the case of president trump, frankly, i think he wanted to cross those laws lines, and didn't think about them in many instances. that's why he's in deep trouble. >> there is the current president, biden and a member of his own cabinet, menendez, who think of the impeachment inquiry when it comes to biden, you've got impeachment looming over mayorkas as well, some have argued it as well the democrats opened a pant doors box by having back-to-back impeachments of trump, in what two years? overtime in an era when we

never actually had them for longer periods of time. when you look at what trump is saying about, be careful what you wish for, it's happening to me now. it could be biden next for the border and beyond. do you have concerns that if immunity is not granted here, and say the election goes trumps way, what's next is biden under the microscope? >> i don't think it matters for donald trump he will do whatever he wants to do regardless of the presidents, we saw this the first term, he was willing to break with history, tradition, norms in the law repeatedly. i don't think that's the right way to draw the line. the difference though is, if you are doing something, for example the mayorkas case, there the has to do with their policy at the border, there's no allegations of bribery, treason high crimes, anything like that. same thing with president

biden. they don't like the things that hunter biden has done in the keep trying to tag the president with those. they've been unsuccessful. the interesting thing the beginning of the impeachment hearing with respect to trump. they brought a panel of experts to inquire about it, the house republicans did. all three experts said, you have enough here to impeach, there's not enough evidence. one of the same experts, jonathan turley sent a letter today and that starts for the mayorkas hearing you, don't have enough evidence. the factors there's not enough evidence to do it in these cases. where the misconduct it connected to president trump is pretty clear caught. in fact, couldn't be more clear cuts in january six? if you had a tv more watching it. what else could you -- >> believe me or you're lying eyes. this -- -- to try to flush out these

issues is mayorkas they have his impeachment? i will see, i know they have moderate republicans and president biden districts, districts that biden won, they are worried about losing those guys if they do we'll take the house, it's totally a political calculation for the house republicans. that's how they're going to have to decide. but when it gets to the senate, they're not gonna peach him anyway. they're not gonna remove him. >> a lot of reverse engineering trying to look for those high crimes and misdemeanors, i remember a time when had to come first, the course then the cart. we'll see congressman glenn i've, me thank you so much. >> donald trump's courtroom in camping calendars, looking mighty similar these days. is there even a difference? we will talk about it next.

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we are in the final sprint to the first actual votes, can we believe that. the first actual votes for the race of the gop presidential nomination. iowa caucuses are six days away. republicans are all over the state, they are trying to win over caucus goers. everyone except for the person you see on the far-right, in the center my screen there donald trump. today he was in the campaign, but in a courtroom instead in washington and lee see. of course choosing to attend this very consequential court hearing on whether he has presidential immunity. instead of of course stamping across the campaign trail. the reality is, maybe he's on

the campaign trail. the courtroom shores a bit of his political currency. look at these numbers. look at these numbers. according to a knowledge panel poll, trump's mounting legal troubles have not even dented his status as a gop front runner. in fact indictments have perhaps strengthened his position. i want to dive in now with congressman charlie dent, until mitchell washing ton correspondent for the atlanta journal. can we put those numbers back up. i think they tell a very compelling story here. look at those numbers before and after. pre-indictments, 47%, now 63%. that is striking for a lot of reasons. what do you make of it? i think about those numbers is >>, trump is successfully portrayed himself as a victim, a victim of the deep state. turn the whole thing into a

partisan issue. that is why he's successful. but it's also helped him is the fact that his opponents have not torn the bark off of him, for his behavior or misconduct. too often they would defend him when he's being in the new york case indicted over the hush money payments to stormy daniels. they defended him. all they're doing is elevating trump. the acts of political malpractice by supplements, chris christie's only when you take them on on his conduct. i think that also contributed to trump's separation from desantis and other candidates. >> he has fund-raise's, two biggest fundraising nights we're on april 4th, lies that important? he was arraigned in the manhattan court. the other one was august 24th when he was booked into fulton county jail. these are huge fundraising day, the mugshot he fund-raise off of. the idea that people are seeing him as the victim of the deep state is charlie alluded to, or that he is just defiant.

he is against, what people perceive as a political persecution, the fact that is he is fundraising so heavily, it's not the valuing at all. it's significant. >> it's interesting because both of those dates you mentioned were also huge spectacles. i happen to be in new york i was outside the courtroom, it was chaotic in pandemonium, people lined up. trump knows how to harness the spectacle. for campaign and political purposes. normally we think about that in terms of rallies, public events, now these court cases, these are part of the spectacle it's hawaii would leave the campaign trail, he doesn't even have to be there in person for. you mentioned the fundraising, it's not just the victimhood of himself and his fundraising on, he also tells his supporters, you are being persecuted. your rights to elect me is

being taken away by these cases. that is part of his messaging. it seems to be working, there are a lot of republican voters who became more resolute in their support of trump as part of this act of defiance that they consider themselves partners with him on. >> what do you make of nikki haley slimming the league for trump, in places like new hampshire. we've got a great debate coming up moderated by jake tapper and down a bash, what do you make of nikki haley slimming that lead? >> she's got some real momentum, iowa doesn't determine much of anything. >> don't tell iowa that. >> it does determine evangelical support for a gop candidate, but that is about it. if we're going to determine presidents we could talk about santorum, who or crews none of whom won the nomination.

new hampshire is better bellwether, when iowa zigs, new hampshire zags it's better bellwether, it would seem to me by haley coming to cutting the lead to single digits, she is starting to consolidate some of the non-trump vote. she comes out of iowa in second place she comes into new hampshire with momentum, she has a shot of winning. she has a real shot. >> she's doing well and undeclared independent voters really. everyone wants that. >> that bodes well should nikki haley become a candidate of choice in a general election. but, we are talking about a primary. not all states run their primaries like new hampshire. the polls show hurt struggling in her home state of south carolina, in a more traditional primary. i agree, she has momentum but particularly if she can get some of her other competitors to bow out, the chris

christie's, the ron desantis is. she could definitely become the head on one-on-one against trump would probably benefit nikki haley greatly. the other thing is again, trump is the one, nikki haley has momentum, trump is the front runner. >> important to think about, and what is gonna happen next. i don't know she convince sentenced to step down. we will see, charlie antifa you so much. the fact of the matter is nikki haley is on the rise, but is it getting close to ron desantis's swansong for the 2024, gop congressman thomas massie joins me next.

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more endorsements, senator john barrasso a wyoming becoming the highest ranking senate republican to support trump's reelection bid, my next guest he's defying the former president, hitting the campaign trail for governor ron desantis. republican congressman thomas massie if kentucky joins me now. congressman thank you so much for joining us, you've heard a number of top republicans in the house and beyond endorsing trump, you're not taking that path. some would say it's the path less frequent side. is it a problem you think in terms of your own political ambitions and career? >> i've been against the president before, during the -- permit everyone come back to congress and vote, he called up very not happy with me, he called me a third rate

grandstander and said i should be thrown out the party. but i got 81% in the reelection, so i like to say i've got the trump antibodies. i've survived an attack and now we're fully immune i think. >> in the past he's also endorsed? you >> then he endorsed me last time, there is really no animosity there. i'm backing governor desantis because i think he's the best candidate. i'd like someone who grew up in their 80s and someone who is in their 80s to be president. >> hi i'm an 80s beatty. listen, donald trump will according to polls is the real true, by leaps and bounds front runner. desantis is not quite wary is according to polling, do you have a reservations and concerns about supporting ron desantis over someone who is thought to be someone who will secure the nomination? >> i like an appointment over confident, i've been on the

ground twice in two different weeks just recently this last weekend, on the ground in iowa, it feels different than what the poll say. the support is organic,. when they're only 50 people were we didn't even have microphones ready to talk to a crowd that big what ice on the ground says ron desantis he's doing better than the poll say. when you talked about the last town hall going to so many different counties, contrasted himself with donald trump was not invested in iowa, and the endorsement of the governor there. it seems like he's all in for iowa, what if he doesn't fare as expected? will you still support him. i'm gonna support him until the end. a lot of interesting things can happen between now and then. he's the best candidate. like he says, donald trump is running on his issues, nikki

haley is running on her donors issues, and ron desantis is running on the peoples issues. the biggest contrast i see is what we saw our national debt go up eight trillion dollars, whereas in florida in that same period, ron desantis brought down their debt down 41%. >> that's important. where you are sitting the little barb right above it he has, there you go, move that thing. thank you so much. he's got this tabulation going. it says the u.s. national debt and by the newest, tell me what this is on your lapel. >> i'm an engineer so i designed a debt clock so my colleagues would have to look at it all the time. i gave one to ron desantis, but he said he want to be re-designed it to go to florida's. that his debt went down 25% since he was. there >> you got speaker of the

house mike johnson are really concerned about this issue it seems because of course the government has this to terry potential shutdown that might be happening. do you have confidence he will get the job done? do you think you're peers believe in him? so we've had more ones than one speaker recently. >> in his margins even thinner than when kevin mccarthy was speaker. it's going to be tough. we've got some promises to reduce spending when we voted to increase the debt limit. i'm worried that this new deal that he struck with schumer that they may get rid of those promises or go back on those promises to do those cats. >> final question, if not desantis, then who? >> i'm staying with desantis the whole way. >> you are all in. >> i'm all in. >> if he leaves the race you are going to vote right in or bubble in someone else? >> we will see what happens at the convention. >> all right, we'll see. a little countdown clock. very interesting. thank you so much. congressman thomas massie.

be sure to tune into cnn tomorrow night. just five days before the iowa caucuses and make or break night for a republican presidential hopefuls. cnn presidents debate moderated by jake tapper and dana bash. tomorrow night at nine pm eastern. up next, in all hand-safety meeting and boeing tonight. the company is acknowledging what they are calling a mistake over the door plug that blew out of an alaska airlines flight. what is that mistake?

>> tonight, boeing ceo david calhoun publicly speaking out, acknowledging what he calls, quote, our mistake. >> we are going to approach this acknowledging our mistake. we are going to approach it with 100% transparency, every step of the way. we are going to work with the and csb who are investigating the accident itself to find out what caused this. >> this comes as the 737 max 9 inspections are delayed after regulators holbrooke told bowing to revise its instructions for how airplanes, how airlines should inspect the jet. but united and alaska airlines now say technicians have found loose hardware on some of their max 9s. federal authorities are grounded most now of those planes after alaska airlines midflight blowout on friday

that left a gaping hole on the side of the fuselage. there are more than 200 max 9's in service all around the world, but most of them operate right here in the united states. aviation analyst miles o'brien has been following every twist and turn of the story, and he joins me now. miles, every time i hear about this case, the statements make me a little more nervous each and every time. our mistake, the cause, grounding aircraft. there's also a source inside the boeing safety meeting says that this mistake, they're calling it, happened in the aircraft manufacturing supply chain. how would quality control checks have missed something like this? >> i am stunned, laura. they keep saying mistake singular. its mistakes plural. that's the problem here. this is not a nice way. boeing not too long ago was warning operators of loose nuts in the tail section of the 737.

they had some problems with the pressure bulkhead. most notoriously, the two fatal crashes related to some software designed to keep the aircraft flying properly. this is a series of mistakes by once the gold standard manufacturer of airlines in the world. it's just mind-boggling to anybody in aviation that these bolts would not be turned properly to the right torx and the wires put through them to make sure they don't get loose. as far as we know, there weren't any bolts on the door, which was ejected from that aircraft. that is just stunning. >> a three-year-old can tell you righty tightly lefty lucy. it's not even an air plane at this time. the ntsb so the alaska plane lost this fuselage, code called for a side door flew out of an

airplane, it was not being used over water because a pressurization warning light had gone off during three recent flights. i just don't understand how the conditions could be, all right, flying, it just not over water. how is that possibly making any sense? >> well, what you have in that scenario is a pressurization system that is truly redundant. the first layer of that system was blinking saying there was a problem. it's likely now, as we look back on this, that some sort of leak had developed in that bore that door, causing light to go on. but they couldn't figure out what it was. alaska airlines had a policy that if you didn't have eee redundant pressurization systems, you don't do that long flight over water, which is, by the way, the longest flight over water on the planet without an alternate landing site. that was the airline's decision out of an abundance of caution,

not to do that. why they flew over land is they could because they had two more systems to ensure the airplane stayed pressurized. what was happening, however, possibly, is that door was causing a leak and the airplane was screaming at maintenance to do something about it but they didn't know because we didn't have a sensor they're telling them that was a problem. >> wow. there's a lot more to learn about what's going on here and gives a lot of people will pause. we need your expertise to make us feel comfortable. thank you so much, miles o'brien. and hey, thank you all for watching our coverage continues. my sport propels me forward.

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