hostages in those tunnels or in tunnels next to them, and yet isn't able to get them out? >> and that's the difficult thing. how do you fight the battle when you're fighting it in several dimensions. you know, i said to him normally in a battle, you would outflank your enemy. you would get around the side of them. but down there he said, you know, we don't even know. we can be standing on top of them. they can be underneath us. so we've got to try to fight in all these different dimensions. but they do have good intelligence. that's part of the picture. and in that tunnel at least they were able to extract dna evidence, blood, hair of the hostages that had actually been held down there. there is a lot of technical equipment used as well. >> absolutely. and obviously, israel a crucial topic in this debate coming up in the next hour. nic robertson, thank you so much from tel aviv. and finally tonight, don't miss it. the cnn primary gop debate live

from iowa. nikki haley and ron desantis head to head. this is the final push before the first votes which are in iowa. jake tapper and dana bash moderate tonight at 9:00. and i'll be back with anderson for a special hour of "ac 360" starting now. we are now just about an hour away from the final republican primary debate before the iowa caucuses next monday. if you're just joining us, i'm coming to you along with erin burnett from new york from the campus of drake university in des moines. ron desantis and nikki haley squaring off tonight. cnn's dana bash and jake tapper are moderating. >> adding to the interest, the unexpected, right, and raising the stakes, the former governor and now former candidate who did not qualify but is so crucial in this race as it moves forward, chris christie. >> that's right. governor christie stepping out of the race just a short time

ago. we're starlgt off this hour with that headline that he made late today, suspending his campaign. here is some of what he told reporters this evening in new hampshire. >> i know, i can see it from some of the faces here, that i'm disappointing some people by doing this. people who believe in our message and believe in what we've been doing. i also know, though, it's the right thing for me to do. because i want to promise you this. i am going make sure that in no way do i enable donald trump to ever be president of the united states again. and that's more important than my own personal inhibition. >> chris christie suspending his campaign. as for who he may endorse, a source familiar with chris christie's thinking says the former new jersey governor will not endorse any candidate that continues to say they will support trump if he becomes the

nominee. his remarks this afternoon about his 2024 rivals nodded to that. >> if donald trump wins the nominee of this party, the moment that it happened was when nikki haley and ron desantis, tim scott and mike pence and doug burgum and vivek ramaswamy stood on that stage in milwaukee in august, and when we were asked would you support someone who is a convicted felon to be president of the united states, they raised their hands. give ron credit. he had to look to everybody else first to see if he wanted to raise his hand. but then he raised his hand. kind of like cheating off somebody's paper. in high school. >> so from the sound of that, it sounds like he is not going to

be endorsing anybody any time soon. we shall see about that. i'm here with john king and abby phillip in the hall where the debate will take place a little less than an hour from now. john, were you surprised by the announcement? >> i was surprised by a the timing, but i decided chris christie decided there was a debate tonight he didn't meet the criteria to get here. he gets the math. he is not going to be the republican nominee. and also it fits his central message. he believes it has to be anybody but trump. the math is atlanta for him. and you're getting to the point where the other anti-trump people are saying why stay in. you're making it harder. if you get 8 or 5%, they need a consolidation. the only way to beat trump is for consolidation. it's hard, hard for any candidate whether you're at 2% or 40%, it's hard to get out. he can do math. he was not going to win. get out tout now and put the burden on those two. >> you do have to give him credit. that was his message from the beginning. obviously ego would want to stay in the race, but he did step out.

>> i think the timing to me feels significant. he wanted to do it just before the caucuses. i think it has already injected a momentum shift into this race. there is now the possibility that one of these candidates will be on the stage behind us, could draw his supporters, which would totally change the dynamics of the contests that are ahead. christie knew that was a possibility and i think waited until this moment so it could have maximum impact. it doesn't just get absorbed into the atmosphere of this primary. this is the moment when everything matters. every day matters. and every endorsement matters. he wanted it to have impact, and i think it will. >> i wanted to play some of the hot mic moments that christie was recorded shortly before his announcement. let's listen. >> she's going to get smoked. and you and i both know it. she is not up to this. desantis calls me. calls me. petrified that i would --

>> it's unclear -- we don't know the full context of what he was saying. >> that's very nice of you to say. >> i feel this sense over obligation. >> because those comments were pretty new jersey blunt on chris christie's part. look, i don't -- this is politics, right. these candidates talk smack behind the scenes all the time. they know it. i don't necessarily see those comments precluding anything from this point forward. >> but he has said in terms of endorsements he would not endorse a candidate who would support trump. >> look, that is a litmus test for nikki haley. it is also a litmus test for ron desantis. what is ron desantis' answer to whether he will support donald trump or not? he said he would consider pardoning him. i think it puts both of them on the spot. i think christie, it almost sounds to me not to

psychoanalyze here, but there is a little note of disappointment i think in christie's comments there. he wants nikki haley to be more forceful. she has not been up until this point. we'll see what happens going forward. the question she has been tripped up on in the last few days is will she consider being trump's vice president. the fact that she doesn't want to give a straight answer to that i think has been disturbing, not just to christie but to a lot of republicans. there is still time for her to get in some clear place. she has to make a choice here. it's either trump or not. because i think christie is forcing that issue right now. there is a poll out of new hampshire that shows if people weren't voting for christie, what would their second choice be. nikki haley seems to benefit in that. we're putting it up on the screen. >> that was the first choice, right? christie was running third. this is the second choice of christie voters. look at that. 65% of the people who were going to vote for chris christie today

say they're going to go to nikki haley. that gives nikki haley right now an hour from now an opportunity. obviously iowa is first. she is in des moines. she is trying to run as strong as she can here. trumps way ahead according to all the data. the question can she come in a decent strong second here and use that momentum to catapult into new hampshire where she is already in second place. and if she can pick up the christie support and then get even closer to trump, can she beat trump in new hampshire. look, the biggest question here, we talk about all the little pieces. the biggest question is we may know two weeks from i know whether donald trump can be slowed or stopped. if donald trump wins iowa and new hampshire, forget about it. just forget about it. then he is on a rocket. he is on a path. so if someone is going the stop him, it has to start here with at least a strong second. and then a stunner in new hampshire. nikki haley, as we speak tonight, has the best opportunity to do that. it doesn't count desantis out. it doesn't mean he can't find way. but tonight she has the best long shot. they're all long shots. she has the best long shot. can she take advantage.

>> in part because of the calendar. after new hampshire is her home state. that is a real potential boon for her. trump is very popular pretty much all over the map. but when you look at the runway here, she has more runway. and that raises the stakes for desantis. it's not over by any stretch of the imagination. but the bar is high. >> abby phillip, john king, victorious very much. joining us with iowa and new hampshire competing for headlines tonight. chris sununu, thanks for being was there has been no love lost between you and chris christie in the last couple of days. what is your reaction to him suspending his campaign? >> well, chris is a great friend. he really is. and i give him a lot of credit. he ran a hard race. he ran a race that was consistent on message. he worked very hard here in new hampshire. so i have no doubt obviously he is disappointed. a lot of his voters are disappointed. so you have to appreciate kind of that moment now. at the end of the day, as was just discussed, nikki haley is the one with the chance to beat donald trump. there is no question about it.

trump and desantis have set expectations in iowa. they both said they're going to win iowa. there is no real expectations around nikki there. but what she is doing in new hampshire clearly has momentum. it isn't just one poll. it's multiple polls. some now that put her within single digits of the former president. a lot of folks in mainstream media say that could never happen. but it's happened. and there is still a lot of time left when she is the only one gaining any ground. trump is nervous. he knows that he is vulnerable. and as was just brought up, to bring a home a big surprise win here in new hampshire and have a month to campaign in her own home state, that spells a lot of opportunity for the republican party in this country to start galvanizing together and move forward in the positive manner that we didn't think was possible for a long time, but now seems like there really is a glide path there. >> do you expect chris christie to endorse somebody? >> i don't know. i really don't. i wouldn't expect him to have shouted out an endorsement tonight. i think just 24 hours ago, he was thinking he was still going

to stay in this race. so a lot has gone on between him and his campaign over the last 24 hours. you got to understand that those -- it's an emotional time for a candidate. i've been a candidate. it can be very emotional. you want things to settle and then he'll figure out what he wants to do. that's really up to him what he wants to do. it's nikki's job to earn the vote. nothing is taken for granted. nothing is assumed. she is going to be on the ground here in new hampshire, talking to those voters, talking to everyone, doing the retail stops, all of that kind of exciting stuff you see in the first of the nation primary, she has been crushing. she is surging not because of me or anybody else. nikki haley is surging because the process is working. the voters are the ones that say, not the media, not the pundits, not the politicians, only the voters are the ones that decide who is going to be president. >> we showed that poll that a lot of people who wanted christie in new hampshire, their second choice is nikki haley. i want to play something that governor christie said last night about whether he would ever consider endorsing ambassador haley. play this. >> let's say i dropped out of

the race right now. and i supported nikki haley. and then three months from now, four months from now, when you're ready to go to the convention, she comes out and is his vice president. what will i look like? what will all the people who supported her at my behest look like when she is up on the stage in milwaukee with her hands up like this with donald trump. >> do you think it would be worth it for ambassador haley to rule out ultimately being donald trump's running mate? if it meant she got an endorsement before new hampshire? >> yeah, no, look, i hear this question a lot. i got to tell you, as someone who has been a candidate multiple times, when you're in the race, you're not thinking of anything else. you're not thinking what the administration might look like, what other opportunities you have. you're literally thinking about your message, where your next stop, how you're earning the votes that is 110% all her, or

her campaign is remotely even thinking about right now. i can imagine it hasn't even crossed her mind, nor should it, by the way. we can talk about it and the media can talk about it and those outside the game can speculate. but when you're a candidate, it is really the last thing you're ever thinking about. she doesn't play for second place. she has a shot to win here and galvanize the entire republican party, the entire country together. when you're this close to doing what no one thought could be done, that is all that's on your mind. >> what's the important thing for your candidate for nikki haley to do tonight on this debate stage? should the focus by her be on ron desantis and emphasizing differences with him or should it be on the former president? >> what nikki should do is what she's always been doing through this whole race. be genuine. she just has to be herself. that's why when she does her events, she talks a lot about herself. she doesn't worry about trump and desantis and christie. she doesn't worry about the

other candidates. she catalks about her experienc what she brings to the table, her wyche as a combat veteran, her background as a mom, as an incredibly successful governor during incredibly tough times in south carolina, turning that entire state around. her experience knowing that you got to be accountable. when you're the president, when you're the governor, you don't blame other people, right. the buck stops here. accountability matters. and that transparency, being yourself and genuine, that builds a lot of trust with folks. when she does that, she knocks it out of the park. she keeps doing what she has been doing, she is going to be okay. >> governor sununu, thanks for your time. erin, let's go back to you. >> so jamie, hearing anderson talk to governor sununu, governor sununu is trying to make his case for his candidate. nikki haley law-abide path, crushing it. trump is nervous and vulnerable. how much of that reflects the reality? >> david, stop laughing! i don't think it, does reflect

it. look, what chris christie did in that hot mic moment was really sum up this race. and that is that donald trump is far and away the front-runner. >> as you're speaking, i'm letting everyone know governor desantis is walking into the debate with his family right now. obviously the debate right now about 40 minutes away. this a crucial moment there he is with his wife. and as you can see, at least one of his children, walking into the debate stage. sorry, jamie. i just wanted to let everyone know, literally arriving as we're speaking to get ready. >> the question is, is this just a race for second place, or is something going to change dramatically in the next couple of months so that someone can really challenge donald trump? right now we're not seeing it. >> and what is that that would need to change? let's just make it even more micro. what can tonight do to make a change, alyssa.

what can iowa do? what needs to happen for this not to be a race for second? >> listen, it's a tremendous uphill battle, to jamie's point. should desantis make the point? i've gone to every county in iowa, i've showed up and tried to earn your vote. meanwhile, trump showed up in washington, d.c. for his appeals process for his doj case related to january 6th. nikki haley should say i am working for iowa, but i'm working for new hampshire. iowa has the adage goes, picks presidents. sure, right now he is tied up in his court hearings. just wait until this summer when he is on trial for federal indictments related to the insurrection. if you want someone positioned to beat joe biden, make the case right now why he is insufficient and unfit to do it. >> when christie gets out, what happens tonight to haley? >> that message is going to get you votes in new hampshire. that's going to get trump votes in new hampshire. because people see him as being persecuted in new hampshire, right. the new hampshire base voters, if you say trump is not going to be there, because he is going to be in trial, you're just going to make the case. that's why donald trump has made

the calculation to be at his court hearing in d.c., is going to be here tomorrow. he is going to be where he needs to be, i'm not convinced caucusgoers in particular, they want you to earn their vote. they take their roles very seriously. i think the not showing up is something that resonates. new hampshire as well. they love being the first in the nation primary. >> i think we're using the word base very vaguely. there are multiple legs of the raumt. >> but in iowa specifically. >> perhaps. but there is still a diploma divide. there is still a class divide in terms of financials. and when you go to an iowa event for donald trump, and they do still have them, they play an elaborate little video like here is how you caucus. because they are still drawing in people who don't typically go. that's something they're still open to doing and open to fighting for. >> my concern about this is important. we haven't really talked about money, which is one thing. desantis has got to win because he has to go out and raise some money to compete. >> he has to prove to his donors big-time. >> that he can be strong, right. but here is the thing.

nikki haley has to be careful when she is on the stage. you talked about these really evangelical and more religious voters here, those are not the voters in new hampshire. they're more educated. they're less religious. going after a lot of disaffected democrats or unaffiliated voters. she can't say anything in this iowa campaign that is going the get their screwed up in new hampshire. >> here is the thing. christie gets out tonight two hours before the last debate before the first votes. and those first votes are in iowa. but now you've got new hampshire voters tonight. i'm going bet a lot -- i'm going the tune in and watch this debate. and the ones who are up to look for haley don't want the hear the message that haley needs to deliver toon iowa gop base, whatever leg of the base you're talking about in iowa. so what does she do? >> i think she needs to prioritize new hampshire. i don't think you can alienate iowa. i think if she gets a dreadful, terrible third place, that's not the momentum you want. but i think new hampshire, there is no path to the nomination for her that does not run through a victory in new hampshire in my view. and i think in order to make

sure that she can have a message that will not alienate voters in iowa, but really work for new hampshire, her message has consistently been pick me instead of donald trump, because chaos follows him. desantis' message has always been donald trump is not conservative enough. you can't trust him. that's just not what the republican core conservative base really believes. so that's why desantis is kind of flailed and failed to catch on. but this message that donald trump chaos follows him, whether his fault or not, as haley sort of carefully walks that line, that's how republicans, even ones who like donald trump, they'll quietly say that to each other. chaos just follows him. so that's why i think it has come down to her as the last woman standing potentially. because the type of criticism she levels at trump is the closest to what a trump quasi supporter might say. >> by the way, just having the support of chris sununu, i think endorsements are not what they used to be, but chris sununu's

continually outperformed donald trump in new hampshire. it's a purple state. it is a state with a heavy independent. and by the way, it's an open primary. independents can turn out. democrats can vote. so i do think that there is a lane here. it's to turn out people who are not the ones who came out for trump, but who are active. >> he is the man for the ages. >> crushing it. there is glide paths. sununu comes out and you want to air walk. >> to kristen's point, chaos is trump's brand. he is not rung from it. he is embracing it. and chris sununu is playing expectation management. downplaying. we're not looking to win in iowa. we don't really care. so expectation management very important, because if she has a poor showing, she is toast. you heard chris christie say that. she's putting all her eggs in one basket. clearly new hampshire is a big win, big strong second finish. it's not a win to go to south carolina. >> and a final point. you got just two people on stage tonight. two people in all the time. it's a lot of pressure, and the first time they've been in that situation. >> well, they're both governors. so they've definitely had the

experience of getting out there, talking for a long time. haley has always been quite polished. and i think i want to hear them talk about the economy or immigration. i don't think abortion, et cetera, is the sand trap we think it is because of donald trump's own stance. so the question is, where do they spend their time, what's the thing they think is going to resonate. >> erin, i'll challenge you on the first time because ron desantis did debate gavin newsom. and that was a big hallmark in his campaign. he debated effectively. >> one-on-one, yes. >> all stay with us, because we have to take a break. when we come back, some of the on-stage ceremonies leading up to the debate, and more on what these two contenders tonight hope they can achieve. also, remarkable moments today. hunter biden making a surprise appearance at the capitol and the storm it touched off in the committee holding contempt proceedings against him. we'll be joined by one of the lawmakers in the room taking part in that drama.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪

tonight's cnn republican debate here in des moines, iowa. we're a minute or two away from the color guard entering and the

recitation of the pledge of allegiance. daniel bowers doing the honor there. and the top of the hour the debate starts on a day with no shortage of political developments. on capitol hill a lot of drama as hunter biden shows up at a hearing on holding him in contempt. i'm joined right now by abby phillip and we are waiting for the color guard. they're about to introduce the color guard. so let's listen in . >> a pledge allegiance to the

flag of the united states of america and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god, indivisible with liberty and justice for all. ♪ o say, can you see by the dawn's early light ♪ ♪ what so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming? ♪

♪ whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight ♪ ♪ o'er the ramparts we watched were so gallantly streaming? ♪ ♪ and the rockets' red glare the bombs bursting in air ♪ ♪ gave proof through the night that our flag was still there ♪ ♪ oh, say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave ♪ ♪ o'er the land

of the free ♪ ♪ and the home of the brave? ♪ [ applause ] >> that was daniel bauer's a cappella rendition of the northern anthem. having that moment of grace and decorum, let's turn to the opposite, hunter biden's surprise appearance to the house oversight committee's hearing of contempt proceedings against him. the committee voted along party lines to hold him in contempt for failing to sit for a closed door deposition. in whether something james comer said actually gave biden the choice of a public hearing. but some of that expressing

antipathy for the president himself. >> the chairman refused to take yes for an answer from hunter biden. >> i think that hunter biden should be arrested right here, right now and go straight to jail. i think it's clear and obvious for everyone watching this hearing today that hunter biden is terrified of strong conservative republican women, because he can't even face my words, as i was about to speak to him. what a coward. >> don't act like a bunch of nimrods. >> what are you afraid of? you have no bcause to come up here. >> so i'm listening to the gentlelady from south carolina the witness being afraid to come in front of the committee. it's interesting. he is here. he doesn't seem to be too afraid. >> joining us now, the man you just saw, congressman jared moskowitz, democrat of florida. first of all, what do you make

of your republican colleagues' reaction to hunter biden's surprise appearance? >> well, thank you, anderson. thanks for having me. no, they did not expect for that to happen. they're not used to aggressive strategy. and so, look, when hunter walked in, the chairman's face turned white. they clearly didn't know how to deal with it. they want to throw hunter in a basement, take his deposition and go out and lie to the american people about what hunter said and never release the transcript. but the problem is the chairman himself several times said hunter can choose whether he wants a public hearing or a deposition. and hunter said i'll do a public hearing. a and the chairman was oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. i forgot that i invite you'd to do that. and so, look, hunter has called their bluff. they're backpedaling, trying to figure it out. but look, this was no different than the impeachment hearing that we saw a couple of weeks ago. this was a total embarrassment. one of my republican colleagues said this is why we shouldn't pick our chairman based on how much money we raise. we should pick our chairman based on their abilities.

>> did you know hunter biden was going to appear ahead of time? do you think it was smart of him to do that? >> i didn't know he was going to come. but a couple of weeks ago, remember, we saw that he did that press conference. so after that, i thought, look, it's 50-50 maybe he shows. so i was prepared that he would come, in the event that that would happen. whether that's smart or not, that's up to his attorney and the american people. i know this is something republicans are not used to dealing with, democrats coming with an aggressive strategy. they expect, you know, them to just try to come after us and turn our back. but hunter has been very aggressive about it. so, look, at the end of the day, i'm sure at some point in time we'll sit down, we'll get hunter's testimony. but look, the chairman is eating his words. he attended hunter to attend a public hearing, and hunter came to attend a public hearing. but for some reason, my republican colleagues don't want the american people to hear from hunter biden. it's very strange. it's also strange that we have three members of this committee that defied a subpoena, and yet

pretended like that never happened and were just baffled by the fact that hunter biden came to this hearing. and so, look, oversight this whole year has been a broadway show. it's unfortunate because there is a lot of really good oversight we could be doing for the american people. we could be helping kids in this country, from gun violence. we can be helping families afford their rent. we could be working on inflation. we could be doing all sorts of things. but this is why this has been one of the most unproductive congresses in over 30 years. this is what they're focused on. and american people do not care. >> do you believe that hunter biden will ultimately testify? >> i do. i think we'll eventually get this worked out. you know, i'm sure hunter biden and those folks will figure it out. there may be lawsuits. we'll have to see how that goes. it's no different than the last congress. but hunter biden has accepted every term chairman comer put in his letter that he was willing

to not claim any defenses, that he was willing to testify, that he was willing to give them unlimited time, that he was willing to let them ask any question. the only accommodation he asked is that it be done publicly so the american people can hear that. but transparency bad, oh, bad transparency, says chairman comer. and so look, he's got egg on his face. he put his foot in his mouth when he invited hunter biden to come to a public hearing. hunter biden called his bluff. again, they're trying to figure it out. i think the american people want the get to the bottom of this, and they want to figure out what's true versus false. a and the only way we're going to do that is if people are watching at home. >> you both the house oversight and judiciary committees have voted to approve the report recommending contempt of congress resolution from hunter biden for failure to apply the sub. do you think that's going to pass the full house and ultimately be referred to the justice department? >> i don't know, anderson. the only thing the house does

thun this year is removed the speaker and expelled a member. just today the republicans killed their own rule to pass a bill. they're doing everything they can to get back into the minority as fast as possible. i don't know. they've got a free joet majority. we'll see if they can pass it. there are a lot of moderate members that will have to deal with it back in their districts. i think that's very unclear at the moment. >> congressman moskowitz, i appreciate your time. >> thank you, anderson. and thank you for everything you did for margie stone man douglas high school where i graduated from. >> you take care. thank you. we are now less than 30 minutes from our chance for ron desantis and nikki haley to try and close the gap against the former president in iowa. plus, why trump's team tonight saying christie dropping out actually hurts nikki haley. more on that ahead.

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haley and desantis. sending an email blast after chris christie dropped out of the race tonight, arguing that christie pulling out is actually bad for haley. okay. obviously everyone perceives it to to be good for her. their argument is christie voters are not conservative republicans. they're mostly crossover votes. so their email reads in party "christie's withdrawal will only pull nikki haley further to the left. seriously, chris christie has very serious negatives and should be a liability to nikki haley." back to our panel. i will say alyssa. i guess by trump's argument, i guess it's a good thing that christie is not going to come out and endorse nikki haley, throws not now, if ever. >> i mean, it's arguably a accident spin from trump campaign. they are fearful of nikki haley. maga inc. is spending more than $4.5 million against haley. they have been much more aggressive in their criticisms. and i think they've realized that this does open a window.

she is within striking distance of donald trump in new hampshire. if even the majority of christie votes go to nikki haley, she could potentially beat him there. i would expect to see attacks ramping up, and they're going to lean into this. she is a lefty, she is a rino, she has to carve out her niche which is not to that same base. >> if i'm nikki haley and they start that business, what i say is i can win votes all over the place. i can get independents. i can get democrats. if we're going win the white house, i need all of them to show up and vote for me. i'm not turning any votes away. that's the campaign she would run 245 would maybe find some republican voters that would get past donald trump. >> that's a crucial point. obviously the reason she hasn't done that so directly is she thinks it may alienate some of the core republican voters. are there some who might say i don't like this whole independent business, but i am a little sick of him and i do want a winner. there are two ways to think about electability. i want to pick somebody who can get the independents, somebody who can get the more moderate

voters. but there is also a large portion of the party that says you need to be able to turn out yours by. you need to be able to understand those core voters that are part of our side. because if they stay home, biden wins. so electability can be argued both ways. she has the make the case not just i'm good for these moderates and independents, but i come from south carolina. i come from place where i know how to talk to conservative republicans too. i can do all things at once. >> but what she has been doing, though, actually is certainly not going after trump, and not making that argument. but actually going after desantis. in fact, jamie, just tonight released a digital ad attacking desantis. now it will be the two of them on the stage stage. i want to play a part of it. >> notice something different about ron desantis lately? yeah, we noticed too. ron desantis is lying about nikki haley. i wonder why. >> republican presidential candidate nikki haley's numbers are on the rise. >> less than a year ago,

desantis was leading donald trump in polls of republican voters, but he has been losing ground for months. >> if these fellows have to lie to win, they don't deserve to win. so if they're going to lie about me, i'm going tell the truth about them. >> all right. so she used a plural at the end. but everything else was about ron desantis. >> i just want to tell you that's the nice part of the ad. it ends with a big bang about his being a loser and a liar. so i spoke to someone who's close to the haley campaign. they expect her and want her to take the gloves off tonight and to go after him. and on the other hand, when i speak to people on the desantis side, they feel he has to do the same thing, but this is his last chance. if that ad is any example of what we're going see tonight, there is going to be fire between the two.

>> let's just add into this, be honest, you've got fire. you have a man and a woman. it's going to be fascinating to watch it. >> i'm just glad there wasn't the putting fingers meme in that. >> far grosser things. never forget that, actually. remember, there is only two on stage. nikki haley is not going to have vivek ramaswamy pecking at her shoulder. chris christie won't be lobbing his bombs in the middle of it. if anything, i think that's interesting about what chris christie did today. he put himself on stage so to speak by making sure he would exert some pressure on them. and one challenge he said if you can't say the former president is unfit, you're unfit yourself. it will be interesting to see how they parry on that idea, because he has laid it out so plainly. >> and if it is a direct question, that is a crucial moment for them. >> it will be interesting to see

if somebody poses the question, hint, hint. really push nikki haley. would you take the vice presidency? to get some tough answers. listen, at the end of the day, john king said this earlier. it is a sisyphusian task. you're pushing a big rock up a hill. the path is very, very narrow for desantis or nikki haley. let's not kid ourselves about she is going to rebound here. this is the game you're playing horse in the driveway. off the backboard, down the downspout in the hoop. that's the only way somebody wins here. there is no clear path. it's no easy shot. donald trump is a 600-pound gorilla in this race. >> but the best argument that nikki haley has, especially facing off against ron desantis tonight is i beat joe biden head to head by as much as 17 points. ron desantis oftentimes head to head loses to biden. and donald trump on a good day is maybe three points ahead. without the drama, i can do the policies but actually beat joe

biden, that can break through. >> or even better, is she herself? everyone competing to be a diminutive donald trump seems unappealing i think to a lot of voters. so what is the future of the party? how do you articulate it, and will we see even a glimmer of it. >> authenticity, is important. >> if she beats nikki haley, if nikki haley beats donald trump in new hampshire, i hope she is ready, because what he will unleash on her will make all of this seem like kindergarten game. >> jamal, you get it. >>ly but also in a sense we're having this conversation once you get past new hampshire, and then what. if she gets past that, then there is something. if we take a step back, you have this unprecedented situation of a person facing 92 felony counts. we don't know what could happen over the next few months in terms of people's views of him. this race peters out or ends, and he is number one and there is no number two, what the heck happens? . there are a million different x factors. but there is also the reality that donald trump is for all intents and purposes like an incumbent in this primary.

so unlike somebody like nikki haley or ron desantis, who we all feel very familiar with because we've watched all these debates, there are a lot of voters who i wonder what nikki haley is all about. i wonder what ron desantis is all about. they know what donald trump is all about. and so for all the existence of the x factors, that's why it is so hard for somebody like nikki haley, and why you can't just assume oh, maybe magic will happen and donald trump will disappear. that's just not going to happen. >> i think, erin, your point, i think these folks may be playing to be that second person, right. so if something does happen, in june or july, that they are poised to move forward, and they made the case already to the american people, and they pick up that -- the flag and they march forward. i think that's what is most likely to happen. because i don't think any of these people are going to beat him outright. but if something happens, if he falters or is rejected some place along the way, they're standing, they've already made the case and the party accepts. >> do you see, jamie, from talking to the campaigns that

they also have that exact possibility in mind? and if so, how do you play that out over the next two months? sure, we're in this moment. iowa, iowa, new hampshire. but then you have a long way of just what you if he wins everything, you let it go, but then how do you be that number? how do you be ready for that potential moment, which could happen? >> there is no question they all got in because of that. >> right. >> the question is who is going to stay in. what are we going to see after new hampshire. >> right. >> just to be the skunk at the garden party, is that the -- i haven't seen that the republican base is interested in any of these other candidates. they have not wavered. whatever donald trump is, chaos, noise, 91 indictments, they are behind him. >> right. but then what happens, audie, in some moments where something happens? you have a hockey stick moment, a black swan moment. >> hoping that someone will step on a rake. this is someone in the mall said the other day to me. it's not really going to be

biden-trump, it? i don't know. i feel you wishing. i feel you wishing. one thing i want to add as a flourish and a footnote here is the trump campaign folks have really pushed a lot of rule changes on the state level in the states ahead. >> right, right. >> so that is why the stakes are so high for these one or two early states. it's not just us drumming it up. it's the fact they know some of the states ahead, nevada, michigan, even california, there have been rules changes that benefit trump. and he wants it sewn up before then. and that's why these moments are important. >> and keep in mind what the next few months look like for donald trump. we're very likely going to see his former chief of staff testify, the former vice president testify. he is going to be on trial by spring, if not early summer. i do think there is an element of folks waiting in the wings if the party decides we need to go a different direction because of the chaos that will be surrounding him. i don't see any scenario where that will happen. i think once he gets through super tuesday, he is getting the nomination and the party is not

walking away. that speaks to why they're see fearful of offputting his base. >> his numbers have gone up with each indictment. >> right. and even as he approaches these trials. all, thank you. and please, stay with us. we have ten minutes until the start of this crucial debate. so just how hard will haley and desantis go after the former president tonight, as opposed to each other on that stage? >> also, i'll be joined by veterans campaigns and debates david axelrod for his take about what we're about to witness here in demis moines just a few momes from now. i'll be right back.

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we're about six minutes away from tonight's debate. we want to focus on something that chris christie said, clearly directed toward the remaining republican presidential candidates, namely that anyone who is unwilling to say the former president is unfit for office is, quote, unfit themselves to be president. that remark comes exactly one week after ron desantis was asked on the campaign trail in iowa why he is not tougher on the former president in the statement he said essentially that he had worked hard to point out the differences between him and the former president.

back with us is abby phillip. and joining us is david axelrod, former senior adviser to president obama. do you think ron desantis has done everything to point out the differences between him and the former president? >> no, clearly he hasn't. in fact, the town hall last week was notable because it was the first time that he actually started drawing distinctions. and the distinctions he was drawing were basically he promised stuff that he didn't deliver. i had to deliver stuff. that's the essence of the message. and a little bit of there is baggage that is going to make it harder to win. >> desantis would be there two two terms where trump only one. >> i've said many times and said it to you, it's going for the capillary and not the jugular. they're afraid to attack trump frontally for the reason you saw tonight demonstrated by chris christie's exit from the race. it's not what the republican market is buying. >> christie knows already that these candidates are unwilling to say that trump is unfit. he pointed out today that on the

debate stage, they all raised their hand to say that they would support him, even if he were a convicted felon. and he knows that that's where they are now. he is trying to move them somewhere else. when desantis and haley point out their policy differences with trump, that is not the question that chris christie is asking. he is asking about character. and that is what they have been in some ways unwilling to do. but i will say last town hall, desantis went closer than he has in the past, saying your kids would be proud to have me as a president. implicit. but like you pointed out, it's the popular, not the jugular. >> tonight will anything be different with christie out of the race? will they turn toward trump more in terms of being aggressive? >> your guess is as good as mine. i don't know how they see the politics of it. the poll that we were talking about earlier on the show showing that christie supporters right now overwhelmingly would go to haley as their second

choice, christie's decision making, what he says about these candidates could influence that. and it just is a question of which of these two wants it more, and which of these two thinks it matters more. >> listen, i think that haley has some impetus to draw distinctions with trump because they're about to go into a new hampshire primary right after monday in which she and trump are going to be the principle contenders. and in that race, they'll will a large number of independent voters and perhaps democrats who have registered. desantis to me has a bigger impetus which he has to beat nikki haley. and he put out a challenging video right before the debate. and i expect that he is going to be tough on her, and she will counterpunch. >> nikki haley, though, has not said that she would not be trump's vice president. >> no. she refuses to say one way or another. and even when you asked chris sununu, the governor of new hampshire earlier in the show

about her refusal to do so, even he wouldn't pass judgment on whether it would be a good thing or a bad thing for her to then sign up with donald trump after this race was over. she wants to leave her options open. but this is a time for choosing, not just for the voters, but for the candidates too. where do they stand on these things? the problem, though, i think for haley and desantis is that there really crosscurrents here. the iowa voter and the new hampshire voter are definitely not the same type of voter. and so for desantis, who is struggling mightily in new hampshire, the stakes are actually in some ways higher for him to make a case that there is longevity that is possible for him in this race after iowa. right now that's a hard case to make. in our last cnn poll, he was in single digits in new hampshire. >> how much does chris christie dropping out sort of energize the dynamic here tonight? because the decision, there was so much talk about whether the former president would take part in debates, would not, should

he? should he not? clearly his decision to not patriotic part in debates -- >> shrewd. it was a very shrewd decision. he knew without him there, that the other candidates would go after eat other. and that's exactly what happened. and he largely escaped attacks either from the questioners or from the other candidates. and to answer your question, though, about does it energize this event, i think it energizes it in this way. it's now very, very clear, if it wasn't clear before that nikki haley is probably the only person left who is going to challenge trump and has a chance to beat him somewhere early, which is new hampshire. and if she does, there is life in this race. and now there is more life in her candidacy because chris christie dropped out. in that sense, i think it does energize. she looks -- and it mayner enere her supporters here to think it may be worth doing going to these caucuses. i still have questions whether

she is going to be able with a limited organization to yank these people out in 3 below temperatures. but there is a little more impetus than there was two hours ago. >> especially brutally cold on monday. >> yes. >> it's already cold. >> it's already cold, snow on the grand here in iowa. and to underscore what david is saying, the psychological impact of any candidate defeating trump in one of these primaries i think is actually very important. the narrative has been for good reason that trump is the dominant player in this race. the other candidates have not been able to get anywhere close. if that changes, i think that by default changes the trajectory of this campaign. >> we are just seconds away. abby phillip, thank you. david axelrod, thank you as well. the two candidates are backstage. they will be coming out momentarily. nikki haley, ron desantis, this is their final debate before the iowa caucuses. the cnn republican presidential debate between nikki haley and ron desantis is going to