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>> this is gps, the >> global public >> square. welcome to >> all of you in the >> united states and around the >> world. i'm >> fareed zakaria >> coming to you from new york today on the program >> the state of relations between america and israel one this week, prime minister netanyahu reacted angrily to the us position on a un ceasefire resolution. have stingy >> it was the late he does to in a series of serious disagreements what to make of the growing rift between the jewish state and its most important benefactor. and protector richard haas has some thoughts >> then the atlantic's graham wood will help us dig through the rumor in innuendo. but what really happened and last

week's terror attack in russia who was behind it >> at former supreme court >> justice stephen brian will give us a masterclass on what the high court's job is and what it isn't but first here's my take >> the >> hiring and firing of ronna mcdaniel as an nbc political analyst might seem like a small media tempest but it does force a reckoning with a much larger issue that will come up again and again in this campaign. how to deal with donald trump and his supporters to recap ronna mcdaniel was the chair of the rnc in november 2020 and tried to pressure local republican officials not to certify the presidential election results she also denied that the elections had been fair in a television interview this is

all terrible stuff. we've heard so much about it that we sometimes get numb to its importance. so let me remind us all donald trump is the first president in american history to try to stop the peaceful transfer of power he incited a crowd to intimidate his own vice president and republican legislators. and he managed to get a majority of republican members of the house to vote against certifying the election results of 2020, despite the fact that they had been duly authorized by 50 states and dc and affirmed in dozens of course rulings. this is a big deal >> but here's the problem. ever since then about one-third of americans believed that the 2020 election was not free and fair that is more than 85 million adult americans how do we approach them how do we approach the people who rhave led them to these beliefs? do we cancel them all >> should

>> no one who has these views be allowed to speak on nbc news? i think the executives at nbcu, we're trying to find a reasonable way to have the views of 85 million americans represented on the airwaves i understand that dilemma ronna mcdaniel acted in ways that were not conservative or republican, but anti-democratic she assaulted the constitutional foundations of the country. but the nature of liberal democracy is that we allow all kinds of people to express their views avowed communists have run for the presidency of the united states and let's be honest, many republican leaders are playing a cowardly game here it's not likely that they actually agree with trump's lies. they just know that the base of their party does and to disagree with it is political suicide most high-profile elected republicans who in some way or post-trump and now former

elected republicans rise today, but some do try to move away from the worst excesses of trumpism >> the reality, but daniel, in a recent nbc interview, affirm that biden was the legitimate president of the united states we encourage this kind of return to normalcy or forever punish those who, once a spouse, crazy conspiracy theories liberal democracies should avoid the temptation of using in liberal means even when they confront views and positions that are forthrightly hostile to liberal democracy itself. i worry about some of the court cases against trump. while they may be technically legitimate some involve offenses that happened years ago and for which he was not then charged would he have been charged for those war he not the controversial political figure he is today >> so far these efforts to rule >> him beyond the pale are not working despite 88 felony counts and all the essential of the media elite. he is leading

in many polls after all, his supporters are fueled by the belief that a group of overeducated liberals with no regard for them run the country. so how do you think they'll react when a group of lawyers and big cities come up with clever ways to make trump ineligible to run for the presidency as i write in my new book, age of revolutions, the new populist rights, disdain for liberal democracy is frightening. constituting the gravest threat we face to our political future. but the left also has its excesses in this direction many wanted with some of liberalism's rules and procedures they want to ban those who have wrong ideas from speaking. they want to achieve racial equality by quota or decree. they want to use education or our to achieve political goals rather than educational or artistic ones. convinced of the virtue of their ideas in theory, say the rights of asylum seekers. they're comfortable pushing

this abstract notion of virtue onto are reluctant society but top-down revolutionary actions from the uncompromising left or the reactionary right often cause more turmoil than progress donald trump's brand of right-wing populism is illiberal xenophobic, often racist, and takes america into dark dead ends but the way to defeat it in a liberal democracy is not by using legal mechanisms that take him off the political playing field and canceling those who support him rather, it is to debate his allies put forward powerful and persuasive positions that show americans that you can also address their concerns and to confront trump on the political battlefield and beaten go, to cnn.com slash fareed for linked to my washington post column this week there is also a link there to buy my new book, which i hope you do and let's get

started on, >> monday, the us abstained from a un council resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire in gaza and pass votes. it had used its veto power to block such a resolution in response, prime minister netanyahu called often israeli delegation that was set to visit washington president biden's request netanyahu and later moved to reschedule the meeting. but it all adds up to a low point in us is where relations joining me now to discuss the broader implications is richard haas of former director of policy planning at the state department he now writes a weekly newsletter on substack called home and away >> richard, pleasure to have you on >> you >> think this is a watershed moment for israeli us relations. explain why fareed every previous israeli prime

minister protected this relationship between israel and the united states understanding just how oh basic it is to israel's economic and strategic security well-being bibi netanyahu, maybe the first israeli prime minister, certainly in recent decades, who doesn't seem to hold that position. indeed, is essentially rejected virtually all the advice coming from president biden and the administration. and moos recently blame the united states for something it didn't do and seems prepared to face the israeli people if that's what it comes to politically standing up, somehow representing the idea that he bibi notching out who is all that protects israel from ill-advised american pressure. and that would truly be a watershed in this relationship. >> and it's not just words, it's also the kind of things that the netanyahu government is doing. just recent few days ago. they announced that they're going to give 2000 acres of land in the west bank to settlement. that the united states government has just

called against international law >> exactly. and wasn't a coincidence that secretary thursday, tony blinken happened to be there right around that was having talk about something in your face every inch of the way they didn't using more military force than the united states thought was wise. lots of civilians, tens of thousands of civilians have been killed in addition to hamas fighters, they'd been resisting do what the united states wanted in the way of making i'm sure enough humanitarian aid guide in there. what i just don't see is an effort to bridge the differences. i'm not saying fried. look, i was in government several times working on these issues. states and israel's often disagree. but for the most part, there is a good faith effort to bridge the disagreements that's what i don't see here. >> and you think the bibi netanyahu strategy is fundamentally wrong. you laid out, you had a wonderful wall street journal asieh, we explained it you talked about how there could have been a much more targeted approach, one that took into account humanitarian conditions why do

you think they didn't at some less, some of it is bb but is there there was a broader i think emotional response that they horrible terrorist attack provoked >> absolutely. and a lot of people defend what bibi netanyahu is done saying that's where the israeli body public is. and i go, yes, but the last i checked leaders lead they don't follow. and just because something may be popular in the short term, trust me, it won't be popular in the long term if israel has a second unsuccessful occupation of gaza. but even more fareed what's missing here is a political dimension. i understand the desire to sideline hamas obviously it's not a partner, but you can't sideline of political force just with military force you can't beat something with nothing where, where's the missing component to basically tell palestinians this is a dead end, hamas will not get any of what you want politically. but here's another path. here's a political path. >> i want to ask you about one aspect of this, that human must

encounter because i have encountered it, there are longtime support of israel who are jewish american >> a >> lot of american jews, i find are kind of confused about how to think about this. on the one hand, they, they were horrified by the terror attack by hamas as they should be. there's this crazy rise in anti-semitism around the world and in the united states. so i find a lot of them supporting bibi netanyahu just because they know they're there, they feel threatened. there is a sense of being under siege and maybe this guy is at least defending israel. >> they feel threatened also american jews, lot of americans even beyond american jews, are uncomfortable disagreeing with israel. it's very hard to a times to parse the difference between disagreeing with israel and not being anti-zionist or even worse yet. andy semitic. it's a hard argument to sustain. in some ways similar to this it's country when people like you and i would

disagree say with a rock or earlier with vietnam, how is it you criticize the government and policy without seeming not to support the troops or the, or the country. it is a really, really uncomfortable road to go down. but that is the roads are fine. are you getting getting blowback on this? oh, absolutely. >> when i wrote the piece recently in the wall street >> journal about what israel could and should have done rather than what they did. a lot of people are just very uncomfortable. my email shall we chez is rich in criticism. it's not easy and these are not. how do i put it is or not? antiseptic intellectual disability or emotional issues he's a personal issues, a lots. at stake for someone like me who cares passionately about israel, it's very hard to watch when i see israel doing things that i really believe are counter, are contrary to its own self-interests. and yes, i worry about the anti-semitism that it's provoking here in the isas and say all that without admitting in many ways that the people

who are out there in the marches, i don't like their agendas a lot of them don't know the basics of this. when i hear them chanting from the river to the sea i want no part of their agenda. this is a hard argument to have in private. this is a really hard argument to sustain in public. that's why i think prison and biden has had some problems with it trying to be sympathetic to israel, yet distancing himself from, from israeli policy. he's been reluctant to confront bibi netanyahu. but what we've learned over the last, 56 months is gentle persuasion, isn't working. the united hey, did states needs to carve out an independent path and is it time is going to have to, if it wants to stop settlements or wants to prevent israel from using force indiscriminately. the united states may have to think about limits on economic aid of sorts or military aid. it's an uncomfortable place to be, but i would argue that is where israeli the policy has brought us. >> thank you for having this discussion in public richard

>> haas. pleasure. have you always next on gps last week's terror attack in moscow has unleashed a barrage of theories about who was actually behind it and why they did w'll dig through all of them when you come back >> specialty columbia, the final flight premieres next sunday at now and see it's just your mother and i went different things, which is why we got sling tv so we can watch live and free tv on one app that's right thing is really keeping please family together. >> you have no idea? i had no idea >> you don't. what's brilliant >> boring. >> think about it. >> boring is the unsung catalyst for bolt, which drops bold. to a rocket and hurdles and into space oren does great job. persons over boring is the jumping off point for all the boring because we do boring makes vacations happen early retirements possible, and

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k soon a wild rumor mill of other theories began spreading with moscow pointing the finger at ukraine some suggesting are so-called false flag operation by the russian government itself and on and on joining me to separate fact from fiction and all of this is graham wood he is a staff writer for the atlantic, also a lecturer and political science at yale university >> graham, welcome >> let me ask you first why do you think it's absolutely clear why isis k targeted moscow? is this payback for the mosque? goes involvement in the syrian civil war >> if we listen to isis k itself, and yes, that's what they say. >> there have been >> official pronouncements by the group that has singled out russians involvement in syria. and it's fight against the islamic state in syria as the reason for, or what he did what

they did. >> they also >> have the usual isis reason of wanting to fight the infidel, one to fight pretty much everyone does not basis and so i think the reasons for isis to want to attack moscow are really the over-determined >> why. >> now and isn't it hard to do terrorism? in in a police state as one as tightly controlled as russia. >> yeah, that's a great question. i mean, one reason why now is because there's capability now so isis had been fighting the taliban in afghanistan and actually not doing very well. taliban had been pushing them out and isis and horus on that central asian and south asian province of isis have become much more interested in the last few years in becoming an external operator that is perpetrating terror attacks outside of its territory. so as it has ramped up, that's keep that capability. it's been looking for places where it can do these things and it happens to have a demographic foothold in

russia because russia has a fairly large central asian muslim population that is quite downtrodden, oppressed, and where you can find a lot of unsatisfied people might want to be part of a terror attack now, whether you can attack in an authoritarian state many isis attack. are suicidal. this one the four attackers seem to have gotten away at least for a little while. so i don't think isis is to determine the idea that they might be caught on camera you, know it sounds to me like what you're saying is that it is isis is failures in syria and in afghanistan. that in ironically made this possible because i assume tajik fighters, tajik islamic militants would ordinarily have gone and 40 and syria, or they would have gone forward in afghanistan. but since both those are essentially they've been defeated. they now turn their attention to russia >> yeah, that's kinda right.

isis had this big project in syria that didn't turn out so well, the caliphate, there was extinguished as a state. and it being pushed out of afghanistan then you see the fighting war in pakistan. >> and of course, looking for >> further fueled enemies two >> now what do you make of garry kasparov theory? because there is something odd. he points out that russia, moscow is one of the most police cities in the world where you can get arrested for murdering anti-putin slogans and public square. and here you have these terrorists for one hour are going doing their rampage uninterrupted, managing to get away as you point out, going all the way across apparently toward ukraine according to the russian government. but at the same time, the president of belarus claims that they were apprehended on the belarus border, which suggests that there's some kind of cover up. that there are two stories out there with somebody didn't tell the president of belarus this, this is our official line that they were at the ukrainian

border. >> what do you make of all that? >> yeah i think there's a couple of things that need to be said. the first is that enough directory and states rumors are poisonous and they really run rampant. as soon as there's any confusion. it's just a conspiratorial culture and that's something you see a cross authoritarian cultures a third political cultures >> the other >> thing that just has to be said is that yes, you will often see a state like russia making the most of an attack like this. so they will, of course, if they can use it to political advantage at the moment, political advantage means turning the wrath during the anger toward ukraine, ukraine is of course, the most important foreign policy issue in russia by far right now, what happens all the time though ultimately, when there's an attack like this, is that people are just, just shocked. they're astonished

that these things can happen, that humans can do this kind of thing. so people are going to be grasping at straws for all sorts of reasons. i understand right. garry kasparov might suggest that this is some kind of false flag >> but >> really we see isis here with motive and opportunity and then subsequently taking full credit for the attack. so i don't think we need to resort to conspiracy to have a pretty good guess. what happened >> ghraieb, that was incredibly helpful. thank you for shedding light on a complicated situation. >> thanks very >> next on gps bowl show confidence in the united states supreme court remains near record lows how can it regain the public trust? see bry, who served on the court for 27 years, has some ideas about that, and the court's current jurisprudence when we come back >> the greatest danger they

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serfaty in washington and this is cnn 2022 when the supreme court overturned the historic right to abortion enshrined in the 1970s, three judgment, roe v. wade, justice samuel alito wrote the concept institution makes no reference to abortion and no such right is implicitly protected by any constitutional provision. >> the >> argument reflects the dominant intellectual approach of the current court's conservative majority. it's an approach my next guest is quite critical in his latest book stephen breyer was and associate justice of the supreme court foremost, 28 years before retiring, he co-authored a searing dissent to that 2022 abortion decision, known as dobbs v. jackson.

>> his new >> book is reading the constitution why i chose pragmatism, not textualism. >> we spoke earlier this week >> welcome stephen brian. thank >> you very much. >> you begin your book with a wonderful story explaining what it is that judges like you were called appellate judges do explain. tell that story >> the kind of thing we do is this. i tried to explain it to the fifth grade a biology professor, a true story all no train. >> and he has in a >> basket next to his seat, 20 live snails what is in that basket says the conductor oh snails yes. do you have a ticket for the snails what are you talking about? >> says the biology. he said, look at the fair book. it says no animals on the train unless they're in a basket and you've paid half fare talking about

dogs and cats. maybe rabbits are not talking about snails is a snail an animal >> now at that point, >> my students are sort of interested, the fifth graders, it's hard to keep them interested, but they are, and they say some say yes, of course it still is an animal. and the other say, what about mosquitoes? what about horse flies? what about scorpions? what i mean are they all? well animals have to pay fares for mosquitoes are ridiculous. >> and then >> they get into an argument. i need say nothing nor except at the end i say, now, you're ready to be appellate judges. they don't talk about snails. i may talk about right to bear arms or law of freedom of speech bot that's the nature of the interpretive job. >> and the court's conservative majority would look at that and say, the way we decide whether this is a snail, snail is an animal or not is we go back to the original intent of the people who wrote this and stay very

close to the little drill language that was used. and that is how they decide abortion, gun rights, all kinds of things you make the case very eloquently in the book as to why that is a very limited and cramped approach to reading the constitution or making law explain why >> if you want to use that approach, you've made me some promises promised one. it's a simple, clear approach that will give us one answer and all you have to do is read the words and a few other things or you will per say, i found a method. you may be saying this, >> i have found a method that was stopped judges from substituting what they think is good. >> for the law >> i reply way i decide cases like snails, we haven't actually had a snail case. but the way i would decide this kind of thing is not stopping

at the words. of course, i'll read the words if the word is turki, that is not a carrot. okay. i agree with that. but there's more to look at because these cases are often very difficult. i just read a case last week where they had 63 pages. i think 30.30 opinion, descent on what is the meaning of the word and i say that is not, that is not my way. that is not a method that i've followed for 40 years as a judge. >> and you say one of the reasons is your forcing the supreme court justices to become historians, which they are not trained to do. you're, you're saying as you just said, that there's one answer very often with the constitution there were very different meanings. madison than one thing, the anti-federalists who put the amendments in segment one thing. so how do you pick which is the real meaning? >> do i say really, this isn't the way you look to purposes. >> someone wrote the words in the statute someone wrote the words here and we know who in

this constitution and they had in mind certain values, democracy human rights equality, rule of law separation of powers, certain values that they hope would maintain. this document for several hundred years. all right. you look at those which are appropriate. it depends on the case. that's the skill of being a judge. and you can be an honest judge and you're not substituting your own views. and so that's what i've tried to show here. i've tried to show. it's not a scholarly book this is not a book written by a law professor, though i was one once. >> this is not for law review articles what it is is to tell you and to tell many others what lawyers do and have done lawyers other thane, he is marshall for hundreds of years interpreting the snail-like words to me, it feels and i have to confes i'm very symptic to yr view. it's to me iteems like there there are two problems with the way

in which the court's majoty seems to look at these things one is that i's so arbitrary how you use history and such. so for example, justice thomas, when he writes the majority and the gun-control case, which he says the reason i'm you have to look at the history of gun regulation in america but he's overturning laws that have been in place for 100 years so isn't that history? so he's choosing the privilege 100 year period over another 100 year period. but america's history is all of it. >> yes, that's true. >> and what is it i found. >> so unfortunate about the textualism, and originalism what is it i found that led me not just to put my own views in here or how many judges have interpreted the constitution. but to do more than that, to say this is not a good way to go about it. first, i think in a lot of cases, it will lead to

interpretations that are very different from what the legislature or the founders wanted. remember when this document was written, 17, 88, 8817871789 or after the civil war there were an awful lot of people who weren't represented in the political process women weren't there. much of the time, slaves weren't there and so they're not being spoken four, though these are ideals that should apply to them. they weren't part of it. and we're just going to look at that period no, that's a big mistake. and if you look at law, biggest picture biggest it is an institution created by human beings in large part to allow human beings in large part to live together more peacefully and productively all right. i've always thought that >> now if

>> all you're looking at his words, when you have a statute, there's a risk you'll move away from that and if you have the constitution, there is a risk. you will move away from those words that allow us to have that democratic society, the john marshall and madison and hamilton in the others thought would last. >> okay. >> now, if >> we move too far away, people will say, why should i do this? >> well, if you would have, >> if you have a system where people are not willing to follow opinions they disagree with by enlarge, you will have a system that moves away from the rule of law >> next on gps, i'll ask justice breyer about the supreme court deciding the outcome of a presidential election in bush v. go more than two decades ago >> erin burnett, outfront week nights at seven odd cnn

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get to and i realized that there was a shock of realization that the court was very political with bush vigour because it seemed to me in bush v. gore, this was the case where the supreme court was being asked to decide something that if you read the constitution clearly was a state function how the electors are chosen in an, in an election is a function of the state and the supreme court in that case, conservative judges like scalia, who had always said, states rights and the federal government shouldn't get what suddenly decided in this case. no, the fed's are gonna get involved when we're going to get involved don't you think that undermines the credibility of the court >> that's for you to say that's not for me to say. i worked with many of the people there for many years. and what i say it's a kind of bad faith. and what i say about this in bad faith is nothing nothing i don't want to say anyone is using bad faith i say they're using the wrong approach and that's a different

thing. and the reason i think it's important is because i believe many people today seeing decisions, they don't like and that they think are wrong, are very ready to say, oh, it's all politics or it's all what you like or don't like. and i say, well, i can't prove zero. i can't prove zero. it's not ordinary politics. and i do think the groups that try to get somebody appointed x their politics political, believe me. but x isn't. >> i >> mean, maybe is a little, but you can't prove it, but he's thinking this is the right way to go about it. >> and >> so i'm trying to say mr. x no, it isn't. the promises that you're making in this document you can't keep you think you think that your doctrine will stop people from people in bad faith. >> we want >> to just say what they like politically. no, it won't. >> let's try while you overruled, roe v. wade. what other cases are you going to overrule? what other cases all

those cases that didn't use originalism, all those cases that didn't use textualism, hey, that's every case. >> are you going to overrule them all? >> i >> mean, we'll be left with no law. oh, no. you are not going to save that. >> of course, you don't. so you say just the runs that are wrong, ones that are really 00, the ones that are really rourke, who and who decides that exactly? and now we are at exactly the same place. you claim. i'm at which i'm not. and so you shouldn't be either >> what's interesting in your answers, you clearly care about the institutional integrity of the court and you are not only a great justice, but a great diplomat. steven bryer, pleasure to have you on. thank you >> next on gps despite draconian sanctions, the russian economy seems to be doing fine are sanctions the wrong tool? and do they put the us dollar at risk? >> i will >> ask an expert when we come back

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rafael romo at the georgia state capitol in atlanta. this is cnn closed captioning brought to you by mesobook.com her firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. if you or a loved one has been diagnosed with mesothelial collis. now economic sanctions have become one of washington's favorite foreign policy tools, only >> more so over the last two years as the us has targeted russia for invading ukraine, sanctions are seen as a light footprint, low-cost way to strike at adversaries but do they work and is there a real cost to the us? my next guest

has written all about it in her new book, paper soldiers, how the weaponization of the dollar change the world order. it's a really wonderful read. >> cillizza most is >> the senior washington correspondent for bloomberg news so welcome. so explain why the dollar the dollar is the reserve currency of the world. it's widely used. one why does this give the us this power of sanctions? >> they, the world literally runs on american dollars. if you are a business tycoon in china, russia, if you are a multinational company, or if you are someone in ganim who is selling cocoa beans to export them, you need the dollar to make those transactions. anytime you were engaging in global commerce first, the global financial system is centered around the dollar. all those financials transactions are settled in dollars. >> so to understand why the us has this unique power, let's take an example of sanctions

against iran. so us pulls out of the iran nuclear deal. everyone else continues to want to trade with iran but they cannot because it turns out that if the us says no nobody can transact with iran, explain why. >> when the us says, you can't touch our dollar and then country's tat tried to work outside of the dollar and they tried to trace it in euros or cryptos occasionally, or any other asset bilaterally, they find that there is not enough liquidity, there's not enough of those euros or yuan or rubles or rails out there to make the exchange. and then let's see, the exchange happens right now. there's an example of russia haven't done more trade with india using rupees to trade oil. but they have all these rupees. they can't spend them because not everyone wants to accept those repeats. everyone will always

accept the dollar and so, even if you have made it as far as creating that transaction, you can't do as much with that money. >> let's talk about the sanctions against russia >> have they worked? >> that is such a complicated question. it is a debate that's raging in political and economic circles and every capital of the world right now the way i will explain it is that sanctions are a tool of foreign policy you can say foreign policy has failed or succeeded you can talk about the spectrum of success that sanctions a tool offered to do that. but to say sanctions have failed as kind of like saying my house fell apart, the hammer failed me when really the architect or the contractor on that house, who had the strategy and the plan for the whole house, maybe that's what failed, not the hammer. >> so when you look at this issue of the dollar future and

the degree to which as you pointed out in the book, a lot of it is sort of it's very fragile. it's its reputation, its credibility, it's, it's a femora. it's all based on what people's view of america is. do you worry that as we get our politics get more crazy and turbulent chaotic? we couldn't lose this, this privilege. >> i do worry, >> free this book for b >> was a small act of patriotism i end on a positive note because i have that american hopefulness. but if the country remains divided we can't get our fiscal house in order. we can rein in the deficit. you need to make difficult decisions in congress and with the white house, you have to get along, you have to agree on what color is the sky first before you can do this, until we can align on some of these issues. we are going to continue to look uncertain to the rest of the world. >> and then if, if somehow we did face a reckoning as you point out, with the debt we

have in the interest rate payments on that debt, it could be pretty dramatic >> absolutely. if you look at the last several empires and i'm not saying america is an empire in the historic sense, the way they've been traditionally. but if you just look at how big countries and rains end, it often ends with debt having overtaken things real pleasure to have you on. thank you. thank you so much >> thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week, i will see you next week >> get your viewing glasses ready and experience so rare, it won't happen again for another two decades. joint cnn for live coverage around the country of the spectacle in the skies, eclipse across america, april 8 did one on cnn or streaming on macs >> and with ai, we can look at so much more than sales data see that predictive analytics, how long have you been doing this >> as long as we've been with

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