is in the region at the moment, israel doesn't often carry out or give these denials of responsibility. but of course it does come just hours after israel carried out that retaliatory strike against an army base in in iran. so the fact that they felt they did have to publicly deny involvement shows how tense the situation is here. abby paula hancocks. thank you very much for that. and we'll give you those updates as we get them but thank you for watching news night this week. laura coates live starts right now. >> i know there was an historic trial happening today i was standing outside the courthouse 15 stories below the former president of the united states talking to a jury consultant when the unimaginable happened there were screams, people started running because of the times we live in, i thought it was an active shooter and said

it was a man who lit himself on fire feet away from me and a public park and i say i was shocked, would be an understatement. >> you must remember. i didn't come to this anchor desk in a traditional way. >> i was a federal prosecutor who was gone in and out of a courthouse more times and i can remember inside those courtrooms, you get witnesses to recount truly horrific details and stories to a jury who will decide the fate of the accused well, today it was us who bore witness and my instinct told me to tell you what i was seeing my mouth narrated my eyes but my eyes i wish i could unsee it my nose wishes to smell it my heart breaks for that man and his family and my mind what has the

same questions you have? who is this man? well, he happened to be someone that we think we saw milling around earlier and throughout the week near the courthouse where we were and tonight, we know a little more police say that he was a conspiracy theorists and while his theories run the gamut, they didn't center around trump or biden herself. >> emulation was some sort of protest tied to his conspiratorial grievances. and he's alive and currently in critical condition. why did he do it i don't know i don't think i'll ever truly understand and i felt i feel so conflicted about turning back to trial after what we saw but today we did and we are so

let's take it from the top in this case back to the 15th floor of a manhattan courthouse where former president of the united states can now put a face to adjoa this trial is starting judge juan, were sean delivering that piercing line today as he opened down in the opening statements and donald trump's criminal trial are going to begin monday morning at 9:30 a.m. the jury has been sworn in 12 jurors and six alternates, and they range from a man originally from ireland to lawyers to an english teacher to a recent college graduate, to a female project manager for construction company. i mean, a cross-section of new yorkers who will have donald trump's fate in their very hands. and he says, they're going to hear testimony from him but if he

does take the stand, prosecutors want to bring up his past legal issues, including the $355 million civil fraud judgment against him the e jean carroll defamation case. it's costing him what, 91 million and a lawsuit trump filed against hillary clinton that was dismissed for being frivolous and in bad faith, which they want to use to what they call impeach his credibility. and the judge says a hill, announce his decision whether any or all or even more of that might come in on monday. that's all happening as the prosecution today offered to provide the name of monday's first witness to trump's legal team? but not until sunday morning, quote. >> if that should be tweeted, that will be the last time we provide a courtesy i want to bring in, cnn senior legal analyst and former assistant us attorney for the southern district of new york, elie

honig also jury consultant. >> richard gabriel is here as well. gentlemen. thank you both for being here. we know that this trial is going to begin an ally. let me begin with you, because the prosecution says they intend to call their first witness. of course, after opening statements. but on monday, but that they won't tell trump's team who that person will be until the day before. so what will the prosecution really be looking for out of whoever their first witness is going to be well, you want to start a safe and you want to start strong, laura, you don't want to you're certainly not going to put michael cohen up there. let's put it that way to start off. >> you want to this is your first time you're really showing any evidence to the jury. >> and so you want to give them somebody who establishes a bedrock foundation of your case. so i suspect it might be a witness through whom they can get in some of the financial records. for example, we know that a key part of this case was the fact that donald trump reimbursed michael cohen through a series of 11 checks.

many not all, but many of which donald trump himself signed. i would want to put those documents in front of the jury as early as possible. you say this is rock solid evidence here. this is documentary evidence is donald trump's name literally signed on the line. so that's what i would do in this situation. but you want to be safe and solid le on that point though trump's attorney, susan necklace, asked the judge if they could have the witness name, and by the way, this was a really interesting part. be ordered not to share it with their client what does that tell you about the relationship perhaps between trump and his attorneys? >> well it tells us that there's minimal trust, certainly from the judge over to donald trump and his team. i think the reason donald trump's attorneys suggested that was to try to get the judge to order the prosecutor to tell him who the witnesses is going to be. the law, you know, what a narrowly judges will make prosecutors turnover the names of their witnesses, sometimes on a friday, they'll say okay, who you call next week at a minimum, they'll say, okay, who you call in tomorrow

or next business day. and defense lawyers need to know that because they have a witness list with dozens and dozens of names, but they need to know who they're prepping to cross-examine on monday and because the judge doesn't trust donald trump and because maybe to some extent his lawyers are wary of what he'll do the lawyers now don't have that ability to fully prepare in advance in a very cheered on that 0.2. and i think about that as perhaps necklace was saying, look, if you tell me i can't tell my client, then it's easier for me when i tell my client i'm not going to tell you because i'm not sure what you're going to do with the information. richard, judge merchan is deciding which prior trump the court cases or what they call a category of like bad acts can be used as evidence at the trial. so how could evidence like this effect a jury? it's obviously not intended to prove this particular case, but it's useful nonetheless well, lauren and le, been one of the main key issues is going to be in this case, has to do with his

intent and so a lot of times the evidence that comes in against an impeachment is going to be used to show his intent and his fraudulent intended that the truth here is that his credibility he's going to be the key& here if i were on the defense team, i obviously be trying to convince him not to testify because he's a wildcard and you just don't know what he's going to be saying so but yours look at all kinds of nuanced behaviors in order to be able to judge credibility and his character is going to be on trial here as much as the documentary evidence meanwhile, the prosecutor may my mouth pavlovian type, salivated at the thought of a defendant taking the san probably for the opposite reasons, you're actually speaking about, but the defense, they only need one juror, richard to have some doubts. so who do you think trump's attorneys are now eyeing as potentially sympathetic to their case? >> well, the gut you're number two, who i think they're looking at. obviously, here's the gentleman who follows trump on on, on truth social. he

follows michael cohen two is just kind of an interesting twist as well he's read some quotes from our the deal, which always i think perks up their ears. >> but however, the thing i think they're really looking at are the two lawyers they've got to corporate lawyers on there. >> i think they're going to look at them to calf some strength and carry some water for them in terms of whether the prosecution has as being met the burden of proof. and whether there's this sort of unique theory that they put forth and whether it passes the smell test what do you think ally about this juror number two, and i also i'm curious what you thought about the central lawyers so i completely agree with my colleague here, the jury consultant. >> those are the three that i think i would like on the defense, sayyed, the lawyers. first of all, the defense here is going to be largely technical and you want people who aren't going to get swept up in whatever feelings people may have about donald trump. be able to say, okay, first of all, did donald trump we know he knew about hush money, but was he involved in the falsification that's the crime.

and second of all, if so, was the campaign finance violation, the actual motivation. and then there's other juror number to the fact that he follows donald trump on social media and michael cohen doesn't really tell me all that much. i mean, following donald trump's certainly does not mean you support donald trump. it means you want to see what the then-president, now former president has to say, having read the art of the deal, a lot of people read it. it's been around a long time, but i think the overall profile suggests yes, to me, somebody who might be sympathetic with the defense overall. >> that's a good point, richard, let me ask you about the emotions that were on display. you saw the weight of the moment, some some jurors got emotional. one of them who was a smith told the court, i have to be honest. i feel so nervous and anxious right now. i'm sorry. i thought i could do this, but i would not i want someone who feels this way could judge my case. so what are the chances that one of the alternates might eventually have to step in and if they do, who chooses, which alternate will do is just an order i

think it usually the judge has indicated with juror number one through six that they will be called an order however, i think there's probably a good chance that maybe one of them will be used. the truth is that this is one of those really challenging cases. heal the three of us have been in court a lot. we sort of look at it. okay. let's start the trial. we assume that juror okay. i'm sworn in. i'm going to do my job, but the immense amount of pressure and the mass amount of self-scrutiny are these have to monitor with their own predispositions, their own potential biases. and then obviously the pressures of the community and the whole world watching has to really put a lot of burden on them so i think that does create this sort of emotional environment for a lot of these jurors, elleithee richard, i want you both to stick around. thank you so much because attorneys for donald trump, as we've been talking about, they are preparing for opening statements in whammy, the biggest trial of their careers and it's happening monday morning someone who is joining me right now knows exactly what it's like to actually defend

the former president in court. criminal defense attorney bill bretton is here. he served as an attorney on the 2022 trump organization trial in front of this same judge, i might add bill. i'm glad that you're here. i want to pick your brain about this because trump is again saying david, he is going to testify. and of course that might be bluster. it might in fact be a guarantee. we don't know. but what do you think his lawyers are advising him and about the possibility even getting on that stand well, thanks for having me. first of all, our hello, le you guys are both former federal prosecutors. i'm sure you'll agree that the lawyers are unlikely to be supportive of the former president's statement. and i can tell you, having been trying cases since the 80s, the late 80s, that that is a battlefield decision and it's the last decision you make in a trial. you don't as

a defense lawyer, you don't know where that's going until the bottom of the night, so it's interesting that he said that and he may think he's going to do that, but i'll be surprised if that actually happens, kinda like mike tyson, everyone has a plan to they get punched in the face. i don't know what kind of his game prosecution so who knows what's going to happen there, but let me ask you, is you've represented the former president when you look at this jury, you like what you see well, you know, it's it's it's, you have to look, you have to play the hand you're dealt. >> and this is from the island of manhattan. we don't have the other four boroughs, so it's kinda like the tallest midget and the circus. i mean, you have to you have to take what you have you're in a very specific subset here i agree with led the lawyers on the case. normally, we shy away from lawyers, but the way this case is structured to get it to a felony, it has to go through a couple of filters. and it has

to get through that filter of if the payments were made, were they made for the purpose of circumventing campaign finance laws and lawyers might be good at that. they might be good at analyzing so it sounds like out of what was available that it's it's the best of the bunch. >> i agree that i can cut both ways to have a lawyer be someone the other juror is defer two, depending upon the different topic. i keep hearing about this concept of the quote, unquote stealth juror i'm concerned about the way it's being presented because i think there is obviously in nefarious attribution to someone being quote, unquote stealth but the real term i think is unpredictable. you don't know who these wildcards well, how did the defense though with an unpredictable juror i i think it's a little bit of tomato tomato there, i think because of the unique the unique defendant in this case

stealth might be a little closer to reality in most cases the unpredicted juror is the juror. >> we worry about. but in this case we can all agree probably one of the following that just his name divides most groups, divides the country 50% feel one way, 50% feel another. and i think because of that unique circuit substance, you have more of the potential for an agenda. juror, then you do in most cases. but unpredictable or stealth, that's the scary juror i agree with you. >> well, that's maybe the phrase the agenda. and of course the process intended to weed out those who could not set aside whatever presumed agenda they may or may not have to follow the facts in this case. it's really important. i'll tell you one clear dividing line though, bill, if you look at the questions and answers for the jurors, who were the original 12th, who will deliberate versus the questions and answers for the set of alternates if i'm trump's team, i bet i wanted

those alternates to be in the place. those initial 12th i agree with you on that do you know the opposite& of the cell around predictable juror who say the potential juror who, who cried and look role emotional. we're human beings. it's an unfamiliar setting for most people. >> but that juror has to go nap, not be because it's not okay to cry. >> i cry. everybody ghraieb, but as a defendant, president the trump or anybody, you're putting your law, your life and 12 people's hands and it'd be like walking onto a plane and seeing the pilot crying. it would probably give you some pause and anies so that's a good thing. but on the opposite end of the spectrum is that juror that just sits back and says, no, i don't have to answer any of these questions in the affirmative. a bomb, a clean slate, and you have to just go on your gut. is that person really a clean slate? keep your fingers crossed i'll also keep my fingers crossed next time, look into a cockpit and if i see a pilot crying,

bill brennan, i'm getting off the plane for goodness sakes that's a visual. >> i don't really right now. thank you so much. >> phil thank you. >> well, you got questions about this historic trial what we've got answers will take your calls live. mac okay. >> yeah, we got orders coming starting a business is never easy. a star eight months pregnant. that's a different story i couldn't slow down. >> we were starting a business

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your question there and then we'll reach out to have you call in as the trial unfolds. >> let's get to our first color. tonight. we got marcus from batavia, illinois. hey, marcus, what's your question? >> episodically, if the trial begins in earnest, but the jurors and ultimate began to feel intimidated. an exit what happens next? >> that's a really good question. i want to bring in android consult richard gabriel back in to help answer that for you. this is the big question that every attorney has and they're thinking about right? it's a big challenge. obviously, the judge, i think he's going to try to protect them as much as possible. he's already made them anonymous, but that being said, people find out about them being on the trial. so if they do feel intimidated, i think there's gonna be admonishments to the press is going to be a management is to both sides. but in the most extreme circumstance, i guess he can talk about sequestration and actually say, let's let's protect these jurors. let's try to get them to secure location. it's a nightmare, but it

actually is an option, especially for the duration of the trial and we don't know at this point that has not indicated that he's going to sequester as far as we know right now, these jurors go home at the end of the night the next car it's go to kyle. kyle from ontario, canada. hey, kyle, with your question and if not, how were the lawyers able to get into their accounts especially if they are private? >> and along the same lines, what would prevent a juror from purposely deleting any okay. so incriminating posts. that's a really important question with let's let's talk about that. if we, if we can, that's lisa from i think napa, idaho. was they asked this question. let me go to lie on this because i think it is really interesting to think about the access to the jurors information. of course, nobody wants us to happen. they want anonymity to be able to not have intimidation and beyond what's your reaction so these are that's a. >> great question. thank you for asking it.

>> the whole ball game changed for jury selection when social media really became prevalent, 2007 or eight or so, i remember because i was trying cases that at first we as prosecutors weren't sure what are we allowed to look at this? >> can we look at someone's facebook profile because there's so much valuable information on their and the way it's played out now is it is allowed. it is very commonly done, but you can only look at what's publicly available. so for example, you can't send someone a friend requests or pretend to be somebody else and ask for access. you cannot contact that person. but anything that they post up in a publicly the available social media profile is fair game and you better bet both of these sides are scrutinizing social media. in fact, we know that they weren't because they managed to get certain jurors removed because things they said in court didn't exactly match up with their social media. so great question. thanks for that. >> and the jurors are not required to hand over their passwords, right? that's that's not going to transform it. the public at all. >> great, great. >> there's what can you

imagine? let me go to robert from shy town, chicago. robert, what's your question hi, laura. >> thanks for taking my call. so i know it's very unusual for there to be two attorneys on the jury why do you think this happened? and which side will benefit more? >> well, you know, it's interesting because as most people have this assumption that a lawyer should not be or cannot sit on a jury. but more often than you think they really do, the risk of having lawyers, though on the jury if you're the prosecution, is that people might differ to the lawyers in that deliberation room, as opposed to the evidence presented, the statements of the attorneys they don't want that deferens. they don't want somebody else to be the expert when they have presented a full case. on the flip side, there might be deadly for the defense they may want a lawyer on that particular jury who can say, you know, they didn't meet these elements are in my experience, you know, i'm a lawyer that might be the cause of all of it, but you're right. it does give people pause. but there are different types of lawyers, right? there are those

who are criminal attorneys and those who might be of the corporate or transactional side. and so who knows how ultimately play out in the deliberation room will have to wait and seem, let's go to colorado denver, colorado, to be specific denise, how you doing what's your question? >> hi, nora. thank you for taking my question. >> thank you. why can't white the judge had trump fit in a separate room with one of his attorneys, or he can hear the tao only and can't bear it intimidate jurors and witnesses. well, that's a great question, but you know, you have a right as a defendant to be present for your trials. bring back elie honig. do this as well because the idea of him being having to be almost sequestered from the his trial would not be in line with what is accepted and allowed four different defendants, but there is a circumstance as you describe, if fact he were engaged in intimidation, he could be removed from the

courtroom and not be able to be there. remember, there was a moment during this trial where they believed that he was uttering towards the direction of one of the jurors. and after the juror left the room, the judge admonished his counsel to say, and he will not have jurors intimidated in that courtroom. and so the antics or behavior that could result could impact his ability to remain in an ability to confront the witnesses. again, some of the president is trial. now let's go back to ontario, canada, because i want to see what kyle has to say. kyle, what's your question? >> well, thanks for taking my call my question is is it enough for the prosecution in the making their case that the election is a piece of mr. trump's intention didn't making the payment and falsifying the business records where does he does it have to be shown to be as primary intention that's a great question, but bringing to elie honig, we talked about this a lot, haven't we led the idea of is it have to be all or nothing? good south, kyle. so

you're onto a key issue here that's going to be playing out throughout the trial because the prosecutors have to prove that some part of donald trump's and ten and falsifying these records was to cover up for the campaign violation to silence stormy daniels and to help him win the 2016 election. but you're asking, well, how much of the intent does the campaign have to be and what if there's a mixed intent? what if part of donald trump's mind was, well, i want to cover up for the election, but part of it is i don't want to be personally humiliated. i don't want my wife to be humiliated. the latter of which would not be illegal at all. and you're going to see this battle plan hey, out the answer is prosecutors do not have to prove that the old way motive, the 100% motive was campaign related what the jury will likely be instructed that the prosecutors have to show that the campaign motivation was a substantial part of the motivation. now, i'm sure call your thinking like, what percentage is that? that's up to the jury. there's no mathematical formula. whatever the jury thinks is substantial is substantial are really important point. hey, ellie richard, thanks for helping to

answer these questions and thank you to everyone who called in and delight to speak to each of you and know what you're thinking. hey, do you have a question you'd like us to answer on the upcoming trump travel, we'd love to hear from you. submit your questions at cnn.com slash trump trial questions there's big gop divisions on capitol hill that i've even camera friendly and eager migraine taylor greene walk and pass the microphones. but will hardline republicans move to our speaker mike johnson or not? that's the question next are you keeping as much of your investment gains as possible? my taxes can erode returns quickly. i created planning your portfolio is managed and attacks efficient manner. it's what you keep that really matters. book your free meeting today at creative planning.com well, my doctor gave me breaths tree for my copd things changed. >> her rais, better breathing, symptom improvement and reduce flare-ups. registry won't

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try free at fubotv i'm kevin liptak at the white house. >> and this is cnn all right. uh, saturday showdown is brewing on capitol hill tomorrow. >> the house is expected to pass the 95 billion aid package for ukraine, israel, and taiwan. house speaker mike johnson got support from democrats to advance it. but it could cost johnson his job a third hard line republican back

the effort to now remove johnson as house speaker. congressman paul goes are joined rep. thomas massie and margaret taylor greene on that looming motion to vacate, just i guess, do you call them now the three musketeers, they huddled on the house floor before it goes are broke the news now, the normally chatty green you didn't want to talk after she left congress, after the vote. but you know what she did speak later with steve bannon can you describe your civil war has broken out in the house of representatives. >> i've been working on the house floor just now talking with other members, asking for co-sponsors and my motion vacate. mike johnson as speaker because we have completely lost confidence and his leadership. now that he is allowing hakeem jeffries& chuck schumer to completely control the house agreeing originally a sponsor, the motion she didn't say when it could go to the house floor, but some republicans are signaling their patients with johnson is wearing thin it's

tough to defend him right now and that's that's that's hard to say, but it's just a reality. there's continued frustration with the fact that we're allowing the frankly allowing the house to be governed by democrats. >> and it's the way that they never prioritize center, right? eriksson's priorities never and that's where we've ended up again. and i think it's it's it is thetic sorry me now, former new york democratic congressman max rows and leah wright rigueur, cnn contributor, political analysts and historian. >> i'm glad to have you both this evening. speaker johnson max told reporters that he's not deterred by these threats. what should he be or looking over his shoulder, look, there's one republican it that is on his side right now and that's the only one that matters to him and that's donald trump remember, during the border bill, right?

>> when the senate had this grand compromise, donald trump came out against it. and what do you know the entire house? republican caucus just moved in his direction, but donald trump is trying his best to tack to the middle at this point. he knows those persuadable voters in those swing states care deeply about this issue. but the issue is for him in the republican party, that extremist maga base is not necessarily moving with him. and that's what you see in each of those quotes. so the only way this passes tomorrow and it will pass will be with a majority of democratic votes. >> interestingly enough, blia figure johnson had an opportunity to raise that threshold to have that motion to vacate. he chose not to. will he regret it? >> i think he will regret it. i think that there will be problems and part of that is when you live by this word, you die by the sword and i think everything was fine and everything was dandy before he became speaker. once he stepped into that role, it's, it's essentially an impossible role because you can't play with

this idea of, i want the base, i want one maga has to offer. i will hardline them on all kinds of things and then you get into congress. and what are you elected to do? your elected to govern when he governs, that's when he is being punished when he actually legislates, when he pushes through things because it's a necessity for whatever reason, whatever intention. >> but when your goal is obstructionism when your goal is simply to block whatever is in front of you, then you're not going to make anyone happy. >> and i think this is the conundrum that they're facing. this is what marjorie taylor greene was talking about when she said a civil war has erupted within the republican party. that is what mike johnson faces. and that's going to haunt him as long as he deviates from what megabase wants at this point in time, i mean by partisanship is maybe the longest four-letter word ever in washington, dc. but listen you, it's friday night, so we wanted to actually look back at the weekend words and ask both of you who said it out loud, you got paddles next to you. it's time for a game. here we go. all right, luck. >> i'm going to read a quote from a prominent figure. >> you'll get three options to

choose from and your answer with our lovely laura coates live panels are in front of you and yes, i am keeping score. so here's the first quote, ready for it. absentee voting early voting and election day voting are all good options. republicans must make a plan, register, and vote. now, was that a senator, tim scott be donald trump or see bill barr? >> i'm gonna go with oh, they're both saying, do we have a right answer it's been donald trump. >> let's talk about it, guys. why that was surprising. you would have come from donalds, right? >> let's start out not surprising because the guy clearly doesn't have any core beliefs whatsoever because that just flies in the face of what he said. >> amir a few years ago but at

this point, the scariest thing about the donald trump presidential campaign is a weird sense of discipline that we're seeing on the part of this new staff that has that has come out we saw with the policy on abortion that was recently that he recently announced. >> but again, i go back to that extremist base that's still exists irrespective of what donald trump says on ukraine or on voting without one tempt you for a second. >> let's go to the next. and by the way, i think it's really interesting here is the second quote it is cold there is no question. it is cold but i'd rather be a little cold than sweaty. and really, those are the choices we had max who said that wasn't a senator, mitch mcconnell be house speaker, mike johnson, or c judge, juan merchan asked by a menopausal,

laura coates about what's the answer? >> all right that's right you guys had the such a little amount of competent that's all to go keep next one, obviously, that was a shock to both, but good job on the guess. >> okay. number three, who said this one? >> quote? we don't go after the office of the president with porn star cases. we give a broad swath of latitude. if you're an ex-president and you murdered somebody, i get it. or been accused of murder. but what is this? this hurts the american brand. now, was that a kevin o'leary be the vague ramaswamy or c. centering there, lindsey graham doo, doo, doo, doo, oh, to send everyone too soon. >> okay? >> all, right here we go i'm sorry, leah, you are incorrect.

you get the buzzer. but you are correct. >> it was in fact, kevin o'leary, interesting. >> he has been on often to talk about this particular case. so obviously, it was him. all right. how about ember four guys? >> let's see if you can guess this one my uncle, he flew those single engine planes as reconnaissance over war zones. and he got shot down in new guinea and they never found the body because are used to be a lot of cannibals, or was it a kari lake be representative? nancy pelosi or c president biden shall we wait for snl for the answer? let's see who we think it was up to oh, okay. >> well, hold on. >> well, two of the three answers are correct. it would in fact be president biden. that's happened. then you go for a walk you didn't want to answer that, did you? it's a moment google it. i'll explain nothing further. all right. here at final one, ready guys, here is one. a weight that's

last one that's a cliffhanger. you like that. oh there you go. it's coming up next another time. leah wright rigueur macros. thank you both for being good sports about it. >> thank you for having us well up next everyone, it's not a bad game, it's about a reality and it's a difficult one frank burrell spend 20 years in prison for a crime. >> he did not commit. he didn't even get a jury trial. >> and it's a fence called, no witnesses presented no evidence. >> so why did it take so long to set him free? the very latest& are exonerated theories is mixed a cnn fill sunday at nine when the genes. >> came out. >> i thought, oh, my god on both has a friend he expects blind loyalty. >> turns out, when you have old lot of money people are willing

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now, adt professionally installs google nest products you're all set arm the system we should go with the most trusted name and home security as the intelligence google, you have a home with no worries brought to you by adt her pharmacy has been in business for nearly 100 years. >> a wife and i have run it for the last 30 american technology is making this more efficient& customer-friendly. we use online tools to fill prescriptions, process insurance claims and make deliveries. >> but but some in washington want to undermine the technology tools we rely on. their misguided agenda will empower are foreign adversaries. and hurt small businesses like ours our leaders need to strengthen, not weaken american technology night a very special case to bring to you in our exonerated series where we tell the stories of people who spent years in prison after being

wrongfully convicted. i want to introduce you to frank burrell. his story starts in a july night back in 1999 when a drive-by shooting killed a 29 year-old woman in illinois, the other occupant in the car initially told police he did not recognize the shooter, but then later identified frank gorilla as the alleged shooter roe was arrested and charged with murder at his desire for a jury trial, frank received a bench trial instead where his case was put in the hands of a judge. frank had been at work earlier in the evening, then was home with his sick daughter and other family members contradicting witness testimony. but his defense attorney gave no evidence and called no witnesses at trial. in 2002, he was found guilty of first-degree murder and sentenced to 32 years in prison for the next 17 years, burrell fought to clear his name first,

he acted as his own attorney and file the motion to vacate the conviction based on inadequate legal representation. finally, in 20 1920 years after his initial arrest, the first district illinois appellate court vacated his conviction and ordered a new trial, and burrell was finally released on bond but it wasn't until just last month that the prosecution finally dismissed the case, preventing borrell from having to stand trial. again, joining me now, is that man frank borrell and his attorney, david owens, of the exoneration project at the university of chicago law school. gentlemen. thank you both for joining me this evening. >> evening. >> frank, let me begin with you because i cannot believe your story. and what has happened and i thank you for joining us tonight to share what your personal journey has been. welcome. how are you doing tonight? i'm doing pretty good. thanks for having me. >> well, i'm glad that you're here to tell this story and i want you to tell us about your

initial trial because you had the desire for a jury trial, but you ended up with a bench trial, meaning a judge was the soul decider of your fate what happened? >> i'm going to actually feel the question about what happened at the trial. and so one of the issues is that people, when they come into the legal system, they're given advice by their attorneys about whether to take a bench trial or a jury trial. and because the witnesses in the case were so so obviously bad, a lot of attorneys would say, look, there's these gang members, they are bad. this, judge, i know from my practice, this judge used to be a public defender like the one in this case. and so they're like yeah, a bench trial makes sense. and when you're young and you're teenager in your 20s and you're really reliant upon the things that the attorney said& their advice because they're the ones who opt into the system. >> what was that like when you learn that would be a judge and

ultimately, he convicted you, what did that feel like in that moment, knowing that you did not commit this crime? >> knows a nightmare you know, i was like my my worst fear come true i couldn't believe it at first initially because i just couldn't i didn't understand like, how could you bring someone in here and hold them accountable and you don't have any proof that this person is responsible for this and it was just was a nightmare at the time i had two infant children and it's like i'm seeing that i'm being stripped away from them. i was there sole provider at the time and it was just it was off out and like i couldn't understand like how they reached this verdict when there was like nothing there that actually pointed to me and then i was so much proof that i was not there and that evidence never entered in. >> frank, how old were they when they when you left? >> one and two oh my god i

never liked 25, 24 and 25. now, animal grandfather oh, my goodness, who who ways that men in your absence their mother. >> their mother. she stepped in and you know, she had to play the role of mother and father it must have been hard to try to explain to them that you were innocent, not on a technicality. you innocent did they somehow believed that that wasn't the case? no i wouldn't say that most people really don't understand like, how the court system works and how things go. >> and they were like, you know, more so like most people like they don't get it wrong, like okay, so if they if they're pointing the finger at you then maybe there's something there, you know, like what is you know what i mean and you know, you're trying to

explain to them and show them and they'll sometimes they see it, sometimes they don't, you know, but what they see is the actual separation. >> you're gone, you're not here you know, and that has an effect i understand that frank's family and employer, there were people around who were willing to testify on his behalf. >> why didn't they end up doing that? >> and that's, exactly the question that we always had, is why wouldn't the defense attorney go talk to those people and i worked on cases like this alleging what we call in the law, ineffective assistance of counsel and it's a very high standard. it's beyond malpractice for a court to find in this case, there is some of the strongest evidence i've ever seen, which is the family member got all the witnesses together told them the attorney that, hey, we got all the witnesses the people who know that frank was at work when this was allegedly are going down. they are here.

we've assembled them for you. just come meet with them the attorney didn't do that. and the attorney had an investigator who didn't show up to meetings and it's really crazy because the attorney listed on the witness list, these people. so we knew about the witnesses. he knew about the truth, but he just didn't present it because he didn't take the time to invest instigated to do a defense. and so because that investigation wasn't done, the courts found that this was ineffective assistance of counsel, and so that's why evidence of innocence that was readily available was not presented i mean, this so everyone understands, frank, this revelation and the road to determining that you had ineffective assistance of counsel. we're not talking months. we're not talking before you went to prison, talking longer than a decade years and years and years where you fought to try to prove it in a sense, even becoming your

own attorney at one point until eventually you obviously met with the attorneys that you have. now, what ultimately kept your mind strong enough to stay the course? >> it was wondering, one thing that my grandmother told me before she passed away. she said, you keep fighting, you keep you keep your stuff in front of them, let them know that you're not the person that's responsible responsible for this and you know that that emma family it was like the motivating factors. this is not how my life ends, like my life is not going to end behind bars serving this time for this crime that i'm not responsible. and that motivated me to continue on to go to the library to get in the books, to figure out what i needed to figure out into piece it all together what has been the greatest struggle since you have been released. >> i mean, it was 20 years after your initial arrest that they vacated your conviction,

ordered new trial what has it been like for you no longer being in prison? i mean, 20 years has gone by. what's been the biggest struggles for you? >> so essentially i came back to a world that i didn't know and, you know, the hardest part was being able to try to gain employment to find housing and then to try to reconnect with the family members that i've been away from for so long. you know, because they they were upset. they didn't understand the situation and, you know, it's like trying to explain to them and to work through everything and you know, just basically trying to pick up the pieces. so i will say the biggest struggle has been just the overall just trying to adjust back into everyday life and to just pick up the pieces and move forward. >> this is unbelievable to think about all that you had to be done. an innocent man in prison for as long as you were frank and i have to wonder how

many others are there, like you who don't necessarily have the assistance you're talking about, who don't have the teachings of their beloved grandmother to tell them to not give up friend burrell. thank you so much. david owens. thank you for joining today and i'm so glad to have met you yeah. >> thank you. you're thank you so much for watching our coverage continues. historic first criminal trial of donald trump, the jury has been selected. now opening statements began how will eat? >> decidedly out the case ball cnn for special live coverage opening statements and the trump hush money trial starting monday at nine eastern. >> if you're 50 or over, you can be taking advantage of everything aarp has to offer right now, join aarp for $12 for one year and you're saying i can membership is free, get instant access to discounts on everyday purchases. i care in prescriptions and tools and tips to help manage your money

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