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academic tutoring to prom dresses. healthcare to after care. community schools can wrap so much around public schools. ...and through meaningful partnerships with families, they become centers of their communities. real solutions for kids and communities at aft.org powering progress the white house correspondents dinner, live saturday at seven eastern khan, cnn are special primetime where's the trump hush money trial continues 9:00 p.m. here in new york, de six now, in the books that began minus the jury with a hearing on whether the former presidents should be held in contempt for highlighting his gag order. no decision on that. then more testimony from david pecker, the former tabloid publisher on his role as eyes and ears and protect her to candidate trump from potentially embarrassing stories which he would catch and kill. and just a short time ago, we got some video from cnn affiliate wpvi of the former

president this morning just before the gag order hearing appearing to violate that gag order by talking about prosecution witness michael cohen michael cohen is a convicted liar and he's got no credibility whatsoever. >> he was a lawyer and you rely on your lawyers back now with the panel including st. john berman has been going through the trial transcript, which just came out and as glean more details from it. so john, what stands out again, this is the transcript, so there's a lot to go through here, but it does provide more details, even some of the word choice that both prosecutors and david pecker uses. this is where they talk about the august 2015 meeting between donald trump, michael cohen, hope hicks is in there for a period of time, and david pecker, the prosecutor, josh steinglass, asked, well, can you describe for the jury what happened at that meeting, please? pecker responds at that meeting, donald trump in mind? they asked me what i can do and what my magazine could do to help the campaign. so thinking about it as i previously, i

said, what i would do is that was run or publish positive stories about mr. trump, and i would publish negative stories about his opponents i said i would be your eyes and ears because i know that the trump organization chun had a very small staff and then he wanted to say, i said that anything that i hear in the marketplace, if i hear anything negative about yourself or if i hear anything about women selling stories, i would notify michael cohen over i did over the last several years, i would notify michael cohen and then he would be able to have then kill in another magazine or have them not published, or somebody would have to purchase them. steinglass asked purchased the negative stories about mr. trump, so they would not get published. me. you mean pecker response that they would not get published? yes and i'm jeff, what's the significance of that? i don't know. i'm sorry. i know i know. i'm not jeff, but like what's the okay. what's the crime? okay. so fine. there they're working hand-in-hand to have some influence on an election. here's, we've been here for an hour, right? here's what i would like to know. i still don't exactly know what the

secondary crime is. we heard that there's this misdemeanor that only lives because the statute of past only lives if there's a felony. my friends says that it's state election law. the professor says it's tax law many other people say it's federal election law. it is. and that's why this case has to be very upset. and if it was barack obama sitting there with the same charges, the same facts that'd be saying the same exact thing for me. this is not about donald trump, it's about a united states citizen. >> you think it's a weak case. >> it's the case, it's the facts of the case. the fact that learned counsel don't know exactly what the other charge is, is insane. >> i agree that when that indictment came out, i think i was sitting right here. i said, okay, the other crime they have to prove falsifying business records to come mitt and other crime is unclear & a mess and it remains that way until now. because even now, the prosecutor said, well, there was federal election crimes. it was state electric episode was packs crimes. i don't know where they're getting that

from. they overpaid michael cohen so he could pay his taxes but i think the primary theory here is that the other crime is a federal campaign finance violations. and the theory is they falsified these records. it was a $130,000 payment. it campaign donation it campaign expenditure way over the limits. they falsified the records rather than calling them pay hush money payments, whatever might be an act accounting of it. they called it attorney fees, retainer. and so there's the falsification and by falsifying those records and enabled them to essentially violate federal campaign finance laws. there's a lot of gray area. i agree that but try the case where there was any gray area in your whole career? you never try the case when you will prosecuting another human being where it was up in the air or it wasn't in the indictment, what exactly you are charging them with every every every case i tried to have gray are the other ones pled out? i mean that's why you have a trial. no, no, no, not with the charge melas the elements of the crime or when the judge at the end of the shroud reads the jury's here

are the elements of the crime you and i don't know what he's going to say. the felony that that was committed. i think. that's right. i think i'm sorry. no, i mean, i think ellie gave a very case which is not really all ability though, jeff, that comes not in the indictment is it is complicated. it is but he said he said here when the indictment came out, he's the senior legal guy at cnn and he's got to look at an he's not 100% sure of what exactly the felony is, that the president of the united states is charged with. that is not america. that's not the way we're supposed to be doing things here. if you told me he took a bag of cash, he took a bribe, he extorted people. that's different here. we are still figuring out on the second day of testimony f to opening arguments what is the second what is the felony? is it federal election law? is it state election law is your tax. we don't know. that's not the way the system works. you know that he knows that the us trial di stefano response, i think it

is the crime is the underlying crime is paying 150, $50,000 to eight to witness 130, and then $150,000 way more than you're allowed to under either state or federal campaign laws. and then lying to cover it. why is that? so which one is state of federal? you just say no. but that's not our system work. okay. you're getting a burglary manson, if you're committing a burglary to commit a crime therein you have to tell the jury what is the crime to commit? is it said on the line item, hush money. >> would that have been okay. would that have negating the amounts to much because the amounts excessive and maybe i can boil this down, i think because i want to hear more from berman from the trial. >> i think it's gone it's quite clear already and it will be quite clear that one of the substantial motors evasions behind all of this was to try to impact the election. i don't have much rational question about that. we'll say

it just to be clear. >> it may be that the prosecution does make clear in the coming days what crime they say they are highlighting here, what they seem to be doing is laying the groundwork here to say this was a campaign meeting they asked me what i can do and what my magazine can do to help the campaign. >> and the other thing that they establish in this testimony was that it was michael cohen who called for this mean, let me just read you this part. we don't have a graphic then i'll get two apart with the graphic. how did this meeting come about? how did you know to go? he says pecker says, i received a call from michael cohen telling me the boss wanted to see me and that's how when i spoke to michael cohen, that's how we would are fertile. donald trump as the box. >> this is important about this being a campaign meeting. this is being about the campaign and protecting campaign because that is the argument we have heard. heard from a lot of the former president's supporters who say, look, he was concerned about his wife finding out the embarrassment of that didn't want to upset her this was not

there was no mention of that in this meeting was all about the case and pecker and just once that pecker talks about that pecker talks about for a campaign why this issue of women could be important. steinglass asked, can you explain to the jury how the topic of women in particular came up? pecker says, well, in a presidential campaign, i was the person that thought there would be a number, a lot of women come out to try to sell their stories because mr. trump was well-known and the most eligible bachelor and data most beautiful women. and it was clear based on my past experience that when someone is running for public office like this, it is very common for these women to call up a magazine like the national enquirer and try to sell their stories this was before this was before the access hollywood tape. so the actual the importance of the access hollywood tape in this is that it's sort of the the drumbeat got much louder about indiscretions, changed everything. because remember is stormy daniels was shot popping around her story and was

essentially offering to sell it and they argue that the price was too high and said no, that they weren't interested after the access hollywood tape came out that changed everything. karen mcdougal had a similar experience where initially when you look at the reporting, the offer was quite low for her story, it was someone who had suggested, hey, you should still your her story. that guy is running for president. you want to be the one to tell your story. and then she came out with that also to speak to what this is all going to what these people at least believed it was about david pecker researched whether or not he was violating campaign finance laws when they were making the payment to karen mcdougal because obviously incorporations also can not do it that much money to a political candidate. so he even thought that this was on the brink of violating the law. >> and again, like look, i think i can't speak to the legalities of whether it's state or federal. but the way that the system also works in this country is that you can't just have people hit handing $130,000 to a candidate or a corporation handing $130,000 to

a candidate. that's not how the system works to in order to protect the voter. i mean, there is an interest here in the voter. and if we don't we call this hush money that's what makes it sound. it's a confidentiality agreement. they're happening all the time they're happening right now all over the place confidentiality agreement. >> then it needs to be disclosed. if it's done for a campaign like that. i think that's the that's the idea here. it's what call it whatever you want, hush money confidentiality, but it's four or a campaign and there are rules around that. and clearly, david pecker didn't really think that these corners of the y here is to emphasize what would abbe saying. >> it's not, it's it's it was not illegal fee, which is exactly what was on the records that was get one more thing transcript and john, because this is about not putting stuff in well, it wasn't in writing. it was an agreement, whatever it was, it was an agreement initially and not in writing. here's a question from josh steinglass, the prosecutor,

were any of the agreements the agreement to print the negative stories about the opponents positive stories from trump or the agreement to notify michael cohen about patel potentially negative stories about donald trump or any of those agreements put into writing becker says, no, they weren't put into writing. it was just an agreement among friends well here's why that's significant. i mean, obviously they didn't start using reducing things to writing until money got involved. but to abby's point, i think people maybe wondering why is the stormy daniels payment charges a crime, a state crime here, but not the karen mcdougal payment to evidence of karen mcdougal will come into this case because it's relevant as background, but it's not charged as a crime. the, reason is the state crime here is falsification of business records. the allegation, as i said before, is that they did that with stormy daniels because it was really a hush payment, but they called it attorney's fees, but they did not do that with karen mcdougal. it was structured separately. it was structured essentially as a catch and kill that was no falsification. they paid her for the story and then they killed it so the state law

doesn't quite apply here. and on top, which is the point were making before. yeah, but that with karen mcdougal, there was discussion of the trump trump world giving ami basically back that money. am i didn't do that. and that's the next step that did not happen in that case. it makes it different from what and rudy giuliani is on television in 2018 saying that michael cohen wasn't doing legal work for donald trump when he he was paid that amount of money. it's higher than the 100 it's closer to $340,000. so he didn't have to take attacks. it and that is what michael cohen has been $60,000 for his legal work, for his troubles because he drew down a home equity line to do this but rudy giuliani, who was still representing trump at the time, is on tv saying michael cohen wasn't doing any legal work for trump when he got this payment. this is what they marked it as. you have a pecker says just the opposite today he says he's getting all the phone calls from cohen and it was a different time but that was that was during the campaign and he's saying that when michael cohen was paid, which is when trump was in the white house and when they put that in the ledger, that he

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actor continued coverage and the trough trump hush money trial i interviewed stormy daniels for 60 minutes. i want to show you some of that interview was it hush money to stay silent? >> yes the story was coming out again i was concerned for my family and their safety. i think some people watching this are going to doubt that you entered into this negotiation because you feared for your safety. they're going to think that you saw an opportunity. >> i think the fact that i didn't even negotiate, i just quickly said yes to this very strict contract and what most people will agree with me extremely low number is all the proof i need. >> you feel like if you had wanted to go public, you could have gotten paid a lot of money to go public and in out it out. >> i know for a fact i believe without a shadow of a doubt in my heart. and in some people argue that i don't have one of

those, but whatever that i was doing the right thing. i turned down a large payday multiple times because one i didn't want to kiss and tell and be labeled all the things that i'm being labeled now stormy daniels and 2018 more breaking news and i just in judge juan merchan tonight denying the former president's effort to subpoena information from stormy daniels, including her communications with other potential witnesses in the case back now with the panel also joining us is the washington post devlin barrett, who was in the court today. >> what's out to you from what you saw today in court? >> so a lot of what david pecker is talking about so far aren't really crimes, but there's sort of setting a setting a stage in setting a scene for this. he's kinda the tour guide to this case so far. but the other thing that really stood out to me was while none of this may be crimes the person he describing donald trump behaves like a jerk. and i think that can be really, really painful for pad for a

jury that came out through pecker's testimony today, right? >> i mean, you're describing a guy who's who knows he has apparently when he's running for president, like one of his first like meetings, he's got to have are an important meeting. he's gotta have it's like okay how do we keep women quiet about telling stories about me that's not great. jurors i think are especially attuned to who's likable in the room. and that story is david pecker were telling. we're not stories about a likable person. >> how does david pecker come off on the stand to the jury? do you think i mean, what does he is draining? usually cheerful and chipper through this process. >> like laughs, sometimes very loudly, which good for him, like he's not the one on trial. >> but it is his longtime friend. >> they've been friends for decades. he he concedes very cheerfully, again that trump was very good for his business. >> he he admitted i needed trump to sell magazines. >> and that's part of why he made this deal with trump during the 2016 campaign.

>> i keep obsessing of what must be going through down from his mind, sitting there behind this defense desk watching his former sort of friend, who is a keeper of probably a lot more secrets about him then he has lead on what must be going through don trump's mind. i mean, nothing is is when donald trump became president, i mean, this was someone who had a lot of dirt on donald trump and knew a lot about him and had a lot of leverage on him. >> and obviously, david pecker loved donald trump. we talked about trump's style and what he was publishing. he was someone who when trump first one, the white house before all of this became a thing before ami sayyed, this non-prosecution agreement, which is probably why he isn't such a good mood sitting on the stand. >> david pecker came to the white house house. he was in the oval office. he got a tour of the leaky in the trump tower when he came down the escalator, which i had not realized that he was michael cohen said it's very important for you to be here you've been such a good friend. let's be honest. i mean, at this point, trump is pretty used to people who worked for him who were friends with him turning on him and saying that he's a bad

person. i mean, this is actually happening more often than not these days for donald trump so this is just one in a series of things that donald trump is being confronted by people who were once very close to him who kept a lot of his secrets who knew him, who may be idolized him at a certain point. now, up telling the world, not just the stuff that about stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, but just a mode of operating that suggests that trump is kind of a shady character. >> he should get used to that because it's going to get worse as this trial goes, as certainly win michael cohen takes the stand when hope hicks, if she takes the stand, if kellyanne conway takes us down, i'm not so sure that's going to happen, but these are gonna be people who are really close to them and problem for donald trump here is, this is a structured environment. this is not the bare knuckle political environment. there. he can't jump up and say things to this person's face. i mean, there's a gag order in place that he's violent letting the other thing that struck me today is, isn't a jarring to be reminded of what michael cohen was before he flipped. i mean, he flipped six years ago, right? it seems like not that long, but 2018 and we're being

reminded that michael cohen was a no holds barred unapologetic. we hear this phrase fixer. i mean, that's an understatement to be you guys knew him? yeah. my family is still talks about being in a car when michael cohen called me on the phone and he was screaming at me so loud that they could here in the front seat, even though it was it was the phone was held to my ear. i mean, he was the he was the ultimate loyalist, but devin, i thought what's your point about, you know, he doesn't seem like a night he's person it's worth remembering about donald trump that a month before he was elected president of the united states, the access hollywood tape, pay matt, not a nice person, not a nice, and he's still one. so all of this stuff about extra-marital affairs and he could still win this, notwithstanding be not a nice person when a lot of the jurors walked in the room, their immediate reaction is a physical reaction to a

celebrity that is the first physical reaction. but i think i do think juries, juries always they seem to really key in on who's a good person who's a bad person, and watching trump go through the e, jean carroll trial, you could see a physical physical palpable dislike between that jury and him as that trial went on and watching it today, i thought this could be the start of that process repeating it's have you noticed any reactions by, without without giving any specifics about the jurors, you notice any dynamic happening within the jury box. >> i haven't except for this. they are some of the kg is folks. i have seen on a jury panel and long time, when they were asking questions, apologize. when the lawyers were asking questions of the panelists. i have never seen jurors giving more practiced and careful and cautious answers some of the trump lawyer questions they just wouldn't answer. they literally would not answer them because they felt like they clearly felt like it was a trap. and i think the jurors

are, you know, there's a lot of professionals in that panel. i think the jurors are fairly savvy about how questions about bias, questions about what you think of this guy i think the jury is very savvy about that, and i think they're being very guarded as they start this process. >> caitlin is point about being in a jovial mood. i mean, as my son. well, let's see how he isn't cross-examination i would stuff that right up there. nose in my summation, you see all happy is yeah, that's because he's the architect, really, not really the architect, but he's the execution of this conspiracy. he's the one he does it all. he decides what goes on the cover of the magazine. what doesn't go on the cover of magazines? they could have easily charged him with a conspiracy in this case. and not only don't think make them take them cooperation agreement, they give them full-blown immunity. so she of course, he's skipping on this. >> let me ask off. i mean, isn't that what prosecutors do? all the time? i mean, that that between two when they have one thug, the deal, when they have

a weak case, when they have a weak case, when they need the cooperator. but if they have the documentation, when they have other witnesses who aren't culpable now know they don't to arthur's points so just on the agree with me, it's nice to learn of all i'm gonna do is just raise the possibility okay. >> i'll take what i could get it done david pecker in a lot of these examples, he was the one who said, you need to buy this story. you need to do this. you should get this off the market. if i were trump's defense attorneys, i would be like, well, trump was pushed into this. he didn't really want to do it he wanted david pecker to help him by writing nice stories about him and bad stories about his opponents. but pecker was the one who it seemed in some of these cases, who was pushing the idea of paying money for the stories so that trump could get it isn't that his expertise, which is why he was in the room, which is what trump asked him to be in the room in the first place to have this meeting. that what

can you do? i mean, what pecker is saying on the stand today was what you pointed out earlier, which is what can you do for our campaign what can you do for our campaigns? >> but and to take us back to that time. and what what's happening in effect it had on the 2016 campaign. and look what that looked like i keep going back to this. senator ted cruz stories and where there were stories out, marco rubio and ben carson. but the ted cruz ones were especially agree, just tore he felt the need to come out respond to them. trump was commenting publicly about it and foxx interviews, i think we have this moment where ted cruz had to come out on the campaign trail and say that this is story that was published in the national enquirer, wasn't true. and he got closer than a new and did until the wall street journal every started reporting on this that it was david pecker and donald trump coordinating we don't have the moment, but he came out and he said i know is i was wondering tomorrow but again, i think i

think that there's a distinction between coordinating with david pecker over positive or negative stories and the decision to pay to take stories out of the marketplace. >> i think that it is the payment here that is the most important part of the decision to immunized david pecker is gonna be a difficult one for the reasons that arthur pointed out because that was a decision decision made by the fed's, by the southern district of new york a few years ago when you're making that decision, you have to do a calculus. there's no science to it. >> you say, well, do we need this person's testimony? >> and is it worth giving a free pass of what are we going to get out of it? the decision was clearly made we're more interested in building a case against higher-ups, but there's some jury appeal to the argument that arthur is articulating right now, which is folks, how is this fair the guy who was running this david pecker as you're describing it, the guy who was running this gets a free pass. he walt scenario testified he waltz on out they're trying to hang i felony conviction and lock-up. donald trump. how is that fair? house that equity either one of

you, how hard is it to get full-blown immunity from the fed? >> they don't my knees, but in an easy but i think elie was raising exactly what the defense will argue i think there's a response to that which is who benefited from this conspiracy, who got elected president in the united states. >> but both of them, david pecker was president in the united states when he sold me, he testified he sold a lot of magazines that i made a lot of money i needed him, but his testimony he didn't violate campaign finance laws. >> you don't know if trump did either? >> well, he also said that there was no financial benefit for for killing, right? >> for the national enquirer, it was it was better for them to take bad stories about trump off the market, maybe with the exception of the alleged loved child story that turned out to be false, i think pecker was actually intrigued by the potential, if that were true, to run it, maybe after the election but generally speaking, they didn't want to run negative stories about trump, but they didn't want to run it, not because it wouldn't have been profitable

because trump's story sold. they didn't want to run it because david pecker didn't want them. >> and because positive it seems that the national enquirer audience was positively inclined toward trump. so there is it's not just any target was not any trump's story, but stories a grand dyes to trump worked well for their audience. >> is that what you found when absolutely. >> i mean, it was i mean, i saw the graphs that trump and this was surprised to pecker when i was talking to him in 2017, he said, well, you know, i wanted but to help my friend. >> so we started we ran stories, but then we saw that they work so get a benefit. you just got to use up my dear friend. >> he said he didn't get to dig in a better barrier. thank you very much for joining us. we've got to take a quick break coming up next to the former president, still venting about the trial, taking them off the campaign trail. the question is, is this all helping or hurting his candidacy answers on that if you have moderate to

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about the trial today. >> here's what he said i think everybody has made their own assessment of president trump's character and so far as i know, you don't pay someone $130,000 not to have sex with you? mitt romney breaking out of the shell but he fax job is on his way out and keep it real i'm doug. >> hi. is joining us republican strategies. what are you hearing from people in republican circles mean? you hear trump's allies arguing. he just wanted to make this story go away to protect his family. >> well to protect his family, but also to protect his political campaign. and what i hear often is it really depends on who you talk to, but of the trump corps base, none of this matters. it's all baked in for donald trump and whatever happens is we've learned is great and glorious for donald trump. not exactly true. the other thing i'm hearing is a lot of concern that if he is convicted on this regardless of the fact that most republicans feel that this is the most

political of the cases against donald trump that a, convicted donald trump will struggle to some extent, whether that's 1% or 4% with voters in pennsylvania and arizona in north carolina and so forth. if he's convicted, it's a very real problem for him. and then there's the operational part. donald trump is, right. he can't go to all those states that he needs to because he's going to be in a courtroom during the week. so it'll be a weekend warrior going to campaign rallies, but he can't do what joe biden's doing during the weekdays how much even at the height of a campaigner at this stage of campaign would he normally have been out doing rallies in various places? he hasn't been out a ton since super tuesday, so he's doing like one or two a week at most. and so his complaint that this is denying him ability to be out there. it's constraining him. he can't physically plan a rally. he does have to actually be in the courtroom four days a week, but they didn't have a ton plant. he did have a rally scheduled in saturday in north carolina. it was canceled because of the weather, but i think they're looking ahead to what this is going to look like as he wants to to fund raisers, he needs to be raising money to

compete with what the biden& the congrats have race that has really been their sore point on this logically though, you, when i said to a defendant, yeah, i'm working and i'm stressing out, but it's their life. >> like i know i'm going out that door no matter what happens they may be going up the side door and it's all encompassing. i don't care how this is an e felony is the lowest nobody thinks, judge, mug shots, putting him in jail, but he's definitely not sitting there thinking about strategy, thinking about fundraises. i mean, maybe he drifts off every once in awhile, but he's looking at this guy, david pecker right now, who knows and god knows, you asked early like, what's running through his mind? and it's going to take up four weeks of his life. could be occupied running for president. can i ask you how much do you think republicans liked the idea of how much emphasis trump is putting on his martyrdom. >> it's like thereafter me. >> it seems like every time you see trump publicly, he's complaining about the cases against him is that is that something that's motivating

beyond his base? >> is that's effective the base it is rallying cry number one, beyond that, as you start to get to voters who are more concerned about, think of the top ten issues that we could talk about this sort of distracts from that and they don't like that. and to caitlin point, big big term in political campaigns donor maintenance, donald trump is not able to do that now whether it's at a lunch here in new york or somewhere at mar-a-lago during the week because he's in a courtroom that's very important. he's not going to do a ton of rallies at this point but he should be doing more donor maintenance than he's able to. it's one of the reasons you're starting to hear people say perhaps they may announce a vice presidential nominee the early, so that that person can do some of that. >> the other part of this 2015, 2016 in the minds of most american voters was eons ago. it was so long ago. most people don't care to remember any of this stuff. and this trial day by day is unearthing all of these stories we were just talking about whether trump sounds like a good person or a bad person. well, it's reminding people that he had

all these accusations against him of infidelity and affairs that he used tabloids to smear his political opponents when he knew those stories were false. all kinds of things are going to come up in this trial. whether he is convicted or not, politically, that it's a disaster for donald trump because he wants to run just on maybe the first two years of his presidency. he's not going to be able to do that anymore because if from now until november, it's gonna be a constant drumbeat of this case, of the other federal cases. that's gonna be making the democrats case against donald trump, that he is just a mess. he's a, he's a bag of controversy rolled up into a former president in my role as an amateur political pundit, i've tried to ask the question, who is this going to sway? who is the outcome of this trial going to sway? there's actually pulling on this by political that showed that 36% of independent set a conviction would make them less likely to vote for donald trump 9% said it would make them more likely. not sure how that works, but even if you net that out, that's a lot of

independence and it has to be, i mean, i think everyone is sort of familiar with the story you're interested, what you think dug it has to be people who just say, look, even if i might be inclined towards donald trump being a convicted felon is too much baggage to put someone in the white house. >> yeah, i remember the day after the access hollywood tape that morning i was at a political campaign event for richard burr in north carolina in raleigh. and that's the base who shows up at a political rally on a rainy saturday morning. they wanted to make sure that burr was standing by trump, whether he approved of what donald trump had said or done, what have you but that's the base. if you're one of those voters that doesn't like donald trump, n doesn't like joe biden. this does not help donald trump chaos is not good for donald trump. >> i mean, it's just not going into the 2020 election. one of the big things that voters really disliked about trump was just the fact that everything around onto him was always controversial. it was loud he his political opponents, even in this republican primary, argued that he's not a good

role model. i can't think of another case that more exemplifies this idea that trump as a person may not be the type of character that you want as president. that is just a narrative that is not positive for him, putting aside whether or not the jury comes back with a guilty verdict or caitlin mentioned this ted cruz sound while ago. i don't remember that we didn't have but we do have it now, but i think it's worth because i hadn't actually but he's seen it before, but he is pointing out the relationship. this is when the national enquirer had put cruises father on the cover and a story that was completely made out which david packard admitted on the stand today. here's ted cruz talking about the relationship between donald trump and david pecker the ceo of the national enquirer's an individual named david pecker well, david, his good friends with donald trump. they have a friendship that goes back for many years. in fact, the national enquirer has endorsed donald trump he said he must be

president. >> i had nothing to do with the national enquirer story. and frankly, i hope it's not true because it's pretty bad so ted cruz got one thing wrong in the extended version of those comments, which was he implied it was roger stone who was acting as the emissary would david pecker and donald trump, obviously as we now know oh, and we'll hear from him on the witness stand. >> it was michael cohen who is doing all of this. >> but what ted cruz got closer to than really anyone did at that time was that relationship between the two of them and it then it was not a known entity, a known quantity like it is now, like we saw the details come being out and you saw donald trump also doing other interviews about the claim that ted cruz is father was involved with lee harvey oswald trump would go on tv and say, well, the national enquirer has gotten other things right you know, pointed john edwards and he'd say, well, they haven't denied it, you know, even though there were these strenuous denials from marco rubio ted cruz, and it's just remarkable also given marco rubio tay was asked about this & mocked the national enquirer,

even though he's someone who is on trump's vp shortlist right now. >> and you see the impact that david pecker saying, yeah, when marco rubio is surging in the polls, we were putting out negative stories about him. >> i was thinking about what you said about the political oh, poll and 9% of people say they'd be more likely to vote for trump if he got convicted. i'm trying to think. all right. what would that be? i think that would only be an i think the prosecutor said in the courtroom today about these violations of the gag order. we're not asking for jail we don't want gel and i think they said because that's what he wants. he wants us to put him in jail because i think i think people would say what even on an e felony and a violation of the gag order, you're putting them in jail. >> that's many voters are calling it an e felony, but i take your point for being we're still ahead. today's his gag order hearing did not go well for donald trump will talk to a retired judge who's no judge. juan merchan for more than a decade on how she expects him to everybody wants super

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donald trump continues to attack michael cohen, calling him a liar with no credibility and a new interview released tonight, despite the gag order barring him from hacking witnesses in the new york criminal trial. >> it's far from the first time that trump has publicly targeted cohen or any of his other perceived enemies deranged jack smith's. >> have you ever heard of jack smith did the when i call this judge is a lunatic and if you've ever watched him and the attorney general may be worse, maybe where she ever watcher. i will get donald trump and the attorney general's a total these are person a terrible person driving people out of three york that letitia james corrupt attorney general of new york. >> you have racist attorney general. >> i have a trump hating judge with the trump-hating wife and family. what else can you expect from a trump hating clinton appointed judge johnny

says, judge kill, excuse me, judge. jill kohn visor, former new york state supreme court justice, who is known the judge overseeing this case, judge juan merchan from one and then 15 years. >> judge. welcome. do you expect him do you think to rule on the gag order soon? >> i think he probably will. i think it is typical of judge merchan to take his time and be thoughtful about the process and dot ties. and that is across ties and get it right i've said on this show before i think that the gag order is a challenge for the judge because he does want to get through the process. and of course, finding donald trump a few thousand dollars doesn't mean that much jailing him. well, he could he has that is within his rights. do that for 30 days. the legislature hasn't given him a whole lot lot of tools. but at the end of the day, it appears that donald trump is baiting this judge. and perhaps once that so that, his, you know, his constituents will be appalled and up in arms and he loves that riotous congress

about the moment in court today, were the judge told todd blanche that he's losing credibility with them court i mean, you've been on the ventral long time. what how did you read that moment? >> that moment was i think judge merchan telling him your argument is just not making any sense, and i'm hearing you. i'm listening and give me a good argument, helped me through this, but you're not doing that. you're losing credibility council it is remarkable because it was the prosecutors had gone through each of where they said these violations happened, and essentially, we're saying this post, this post, this comment, and the judge was asking todd blanche will if you're saying that he's just defending himself, point to that moment. and i read that the transcript, todd blanche never points to a specific moment and that really is seemed or thing thanks. kinda careened off the rails for todd blanche, there are hearings as a lawyer that go well, and there's hearings that are so sow and there's hearings that are bad. this was a debacle for todd blanche. i mean, it was embarrassing for him. and two here, the judge openly say you're costing yourself credibility when here's how bad it got. this is

the quote that i remember at one point. so remember donald trump reposted this quote from a fox news personality, but it turned out that donald trump had manipulated it. the judge asked todd, blanche and todd blanche had to say this in court, quote, i wouldn't use the word manipulation, your honor, but the rest of the quote was not part of the quote. that is the definition of manipulation so this was, let me just say one thing. todd blanche has gone through a little bit of cultural shock here because like me, he came up as a prosecutor, a federal prosecutor. you guys know nobody is as cushioned as a federal prosecutor. and now he's got to deal with something you never had to deal with as a federal prosecutor, which is a client, and probably the world's most difficult client, whispering in his ear and passing them notes the whole time. so it's a tough road, but he lost a lot today. >> but isn't the real message of merchan's upset today? it's really a trump, it's not a lawyer. i mean, it's the person who put the lawyer in this impossible position of defending the indefensible is the client, not the work. and judge, i wanted to just ask it.

what would you do? okay. you're the judge. what you've got someone a violating a gag order repeatedly. what do you do? >> this is a unique situation, right? so i have had to deal with gag orders. i've had had to deal with unruly lawyers and unruly client let's of lawyers. this is unique to some extent, what would i do i would not put them in jail. i think that's what he's looking for at this point. at some point, maybe maybe you have to. i don't think we're there yet. you're fine him. you let him know this cannot go on and if it does, there's going to be additional punishment. again, back to the legislature where there's not a whole lot wrong. but yes, you'll find them. he complains about it and you move on. the point is this judge has a responsibility to ensure the fairness of the proceeding, and that is why the gag order laws are in place, not necessarily to punish, but to maintain order. and that is what judgment my sean has done with some grace in this case, in the face of an extremely difficult

defendant an attorney, it also seems clear he doesn't want this thing to go off the rails. he wants this to keep it the trials begun. it's well into it. he wants it to keep moving forward. he doesn't want this to this kind of stuff. >> if i can just defend todd blanche. i mean, any of us who try cases if you're in the heat of the moment, this is one little piece of what happened today you do the best you can so that pressure the whole world is watching this guy. and i think you're right. i don't he's done it. i'm not saying bad about him. he's not some veteran criminal defense attorney. he hasn't tried 30 criminal trials as a defense attorney. i don't know what he did in the prosecutor's office, but what you're saying about a judge in the southern district of new york, they they're almost like having another prosecutor in the room and they take very good care of their prosecutors and his culture shock. it is culture shock. let me ask you as a defense

attorney, if you have the client from hell who's passing, you know, two things. they know everything and what do you how do you do that? how do you deal with that? >> there's some language that i can't use because of the fcc rooms and things like that. and you just tell him, look, bro, this is your life on the line. i've been doing this for 32 years. you have been doing this for five minutes. so you're going to let me do my job and defend you or just gets someone else because just chill, bro, you gotta just chill and let me do my thing. >> but dollars even if he was the president, united states, have you said get to what else? >> that's what he would just do. donald trump number you can't get someone else right now. the judge won't the judge won't can also see is the best attorney he thinks he is. you can also say, i've been doing this for seven years is though he doesn't know. he doesn't know the rules and i think you mentioned about having yes. sidebar. there are times that you like and that's why the relationship between the defense and the judges so important, there were times when you have a sidebar which means no one can hear that the media, no one, it's off the record and you like, judge, i'm going to tough situation here and here's the keywords.

just let me make my record. and i'll back off. and you just go on win it reminded me and probably youtube abbe of the white house press secretaries, always having to defend trump's tweets and suss them out. >> and here's what he meant and repost or retweets we're not endorsement. i mean, it was this cycle that every press secretary went through on spicer said they were official white house statements. but what's different about this and what's different for this sure. >> maybe top alleged does have experienced doing this. well, he's doing it now and he's representing the former president in the first criminal trial ever. and what we're seeing that's different about this is donald trump's words are being used against him. he's being held accountable for them in a way that he's never been before, although i do wonder, i mean, what is ultimately the impact of trump violating this gag order on the actual case? this is what trump is calculating, is that he might be irritating the judge he might be annoying his attorneys. but when it comes to the jury, they're looking at the evidence and he gets to influence the public, but it

doesn't really affect the case because the judge is not going to put him in prison. and until until that happens, nothing is going to happen. >> want to thank everybody in the panel. the news continues right here on cnn choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more can be overwhelming so ask your doctor about botox dots prevents headaches and adults with the tonic migraine before they even start it's the number one prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. >> so far more than 5 million botox treatments have been given to over 850,000 chronic migraine patients. >> effexor botox may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life threatening condition side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection side pain, fatigue, and harrak don't receive botox if there's a skin infection, tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions and medications including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects in a

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