do you want from this woman who is the communications director for donald trump in the white house. yeah. i mean, you know, you want to demonstrate and establish that the ball us was aware of what was happening. remember, there were meetings at the actual white house with respect to this transaction, with regard to the reimbursement with respect to his collagen information, the critical component here is tying donald trump into what was happening. and i think the defense was trying to do as masterful job as they could with saying this was all about cohen and davidson. trump was nowhere to be found. hope hicks might change that dynamic be an interesting friday to be sure all right, that is all for us today on cnn news central, this promises to be a jam-packed day ahead they thank you so much for joining us. as cnn special live coverage of donald trump's trial continues now

good morning and welcome to the final day of the third week of donald trump's criminal hush money trial, where the former president just reentered the courthouse here in manhattan. >> were you all again go before the prosecution as they are going to bring a witness back on the stand, a witness that we saw yesterday? should i stillman that older testimony when court ended, soon again, trump will be part of that captive audience that is going to be listening to the prosecution's version of a trump tale, a sexual when counter with the adult film star that the former president allegedly tried to keep hidden. from american voters. yesterday for the first time, the jury actually got two hear trump's boys and that's secretly

recorded audio tape. >> good morning. i'm kaitlan collins here in new york thank caitlin. >> i'm john mccarthy austin here in washington. and you are watching cnn special coverage of donald trump's hush money cover up, trial in minutes from now, testimony, resumes and zeros in on trump's former fixer, michael cohen. we expect the district attorney's forensic expert who come through cohen's devices to head back to the stand. the question, now, are there there are more surreptitiously recorded conversations. we heard some of that yesterday, that the prosecution plans to play for the jury. and will they again feature donald trump in his don't words, of course, we heard some of that yesterday when michael cohen brought up the issue of payments and trump talked about cash and michael cohen said, no, no, no, no, no. there is also a lingering question about the jury will hear from next hope hicks the former president's long time now communications director and aid always by his side she couldn't be taking the stand today. she is expected to

testify at some point we're waiting for that it also could be stormy daniel's that is somebody else we are watching for the adult film star at the center of this case and unforeseen it's covering this trial from all angles are reporters are inside the courtroom giving us a minute by minute update of every word for it said by witnesses, prosecutors, and the former president's defense team let's go to elie honig, who has more on everything we should be watching for today. elie, which we would be looking for. well, jim, it turns out there are tapes and the jury is now hearing them now when we left off yesterday, prosecutors had called douglas daus to the stand. now this ban works for them and hatten da's office. he's an investigator, he specializes in digital evidence and prosecutors are using the this witness as a way to introduce documents and recordings to the jury, including two crucial recordings. now, the first one of these tapes was made secretly by michael cohen and

september 2016, when he was the lawyer for donald trump, michael cohen had a conversation with trump about the payouts to karen mcdougal and recorded this conversation. let's take a quick listen to some of the excerpts i need to open up a company for the transfer of wallet that info regarding our friend david so god couldn't do that right away. >> and i spoke to alan about it when it comes time for the financing, which will be what will have to pay get hold on. i got no now, this is the first time and perhaps the only time the jury will hear a recording of the two most important people in this case, speaking with one another, michael cohen and donald trump, prosecutors will argue this tape shows donald trump absolutely knew about those payouts and approved of them. >> that defense will argue, first of all, why was michael cohen secretly recording his own client? second of all, they'll argue it shows that michael cohen was the one who handled the financing, the

structuring of these payments, and that's the heart of the crime. now, we heard a second conversation, a second recording between michael cohen and keith davidson. keith davidson was the lawyer for karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. here's another recording that the jury heard yesterday. let's take a listen. >> what about me? and i can't even tell you how many times he said to me, you know, i hate the fact that we did it and my comment to him was but every person that you've spoken to told you it was the right move so michael cohen will argue and the prosecutors argued this shows that michael cohen was doing this was setting up these payments with donald trump's knowledge and he was keeping donald trump updated. >> now, the witness, douglas daus, also testified he went through michael cohen's cell phones and he found texts which the jury will see throughout this trial. he also found that michael cohen had 39,000 plus people in his contacts. that's a bizarre number that's enough

to fill madison square garden twice over, not sure if there's any significance to that. i suppose we'll find out. of course, he he introduced to the jury that recorded call that we just heard between michael cohen and donald trump. now, earlier in the day, we heard from keith davidson, we just heard him on the recording with michael cohen. he represented both karen mcdougal and stormy daniels. he brokered on stormy daniels behalf the deal with michael cohen where michael cohen paid them $130,000 as a hush money payment. keith davidson didn't like that characterization. he said, well, it was just it was just compensation for a contract. it's hush money. keith davidson testified about that. he also testified that the reason for this payment in his understanding was that these payments to keep these women quiet was it was intended in some way to assist the press as eventual campaign of donald trump. finally, on cross-examination, the defense brought out a couple of things about davidson's testimony. he never had any direct contact with donald trump, only with michael cohen. they brought out the fact that michael cohen was

disappointed. he was hoping he would become attorney general under donald trump and therefore had some motivation and davidson also admitted that he used quote-unquote leverage in order to get this money for his clients. so that's a summary of what we saw yesterday when we get back into court today, douglas douse will be back on the stand. he's being cross-examined. we'll see what the defense has in mind. and caitlin, let's throw it back to you in new york to bring us up to speed. what's happened in there? >> yeah, la that transcript from yesterday is worth reading in full because it got incredibly contentious inside that courtroom. thank you, ellie, for that. we'll check back in with you. we have chief legal analyst, laura coates, and our chief legal affairs correspondent, paul henri here with me in new york didn't really important just happened is elie was laying all of that out for us, which is that as soon as donald trump and his its attorneys gotten the courtroom, the judge corrected what donald trump falsely asserted yesterday when he left the courtroom, which is that because of the gag order that's in place. it prevents him from testifying something that todd blanche trump's attorneys shook his head and affirmation at it, as trump said, that when trump enter the court courtroom this morning, the judge said, no, it doesn't

it doesn't prevent you from testifying. yeah. this was fascinating because this is the first time we've seen the judge respond related something that trump has said outside the court when he dresses the media and he's clearly correcting the record. he said no, this gag order does not prevent you from testifying, and we know that since the gag order has been in place, trump has also repeatedly please said that it's possible that he might testify felt like yesterday statement was intellectually dishonest, a little bit of politicking at the mics there, but it's interesting that the judge took them all ahmed to set the record straight and say no, that's absolutely not true. yeah. >> because when we had this gag order hearing last week, laura, i mean, the judge was making clear that trump understood what the perimeter is of the gag order. we're trump's attorney affirmed that yes, he did know. and it clearly, it says nothing in it that trump himself cannot choose to testify that he can testify if he wants to yeah, absolutely. >> and they even went further this remember there was a hearing called the sandoval hearing that took place a few weeks ago at this point now, where the judge was saying, here are the parameters of what people might be able to asked you if you do take the stand

now the sandoval hearing is a way of saying, here's your unnoticed defendant. if you want to testify, there are things we might be able to bring in, but are not necessary chart arch conduct, but prior bad acts. and these might be used to what they call impeach you. other words point out inconsistencies or give the jury an insight and some kind of mo the judge would not have done that, would not have gone to the process i think he intended to actually limit the ability of a defendant, testified. and of course, the whole reason he's doing this is because he knows is a court of public opinion that's not these 18 jurors. if he wants to testify, it's well within his rights and whether he will every i mean, i'm almost salivating right now as are former prosecutor thinking about a defendant taking the stand because you can bring out so many things. it's pandora's box, once that door is open, it really cannot be closed at really, really careful. that's why he wants to get ahead of it. he wants a pure deferential and yet not do it and we're seeing right now the argument that from todd blanche a tweet from the washington post should not be admitted because includes a photo of trump, billy bush, and one of the women in the access hollywood video, which of course they

cannot show it to prejudicial this is fascinating. another first is the first time as a decision the appeals court decision related to harvey weinstein has been brought up just a moment ago. the trump team, while they're arguing about why this evidence shouldn't come in sites that decision, but the judge knocked it down saying, quote, the weinstein decision really doesn't factor into this. >> this is something that a lot of sources in trump's circles have been raising whether that decision related to harvey weinstein's conviction, whether that could potentially help trump here when it comes to bringing in certain pieces of evidence. >> but the judge making you clear here, he doesn't see it that way. >> yeah. we'll see what the argument is that they're making your obviously the weinstein decision made in recent weeks, which was a huge overturn of his conviction. and jim obviously followed pulling all this closely as this witness that was on the stand when court ended yesterday, is expected to retake the stand as trump's attorneys are going to continue their line of questioning, we'll see who else takes the stand. and today. >> yeah, it should be another lively de of testimony. kaitlan, maybe some surprises, maybe we'll finally see some

witnesses. i think that everybody has been waiting for it this point, ellie, let me go to you first. let's let's button up with they were just talking about a few moments ago we have trump coming in yesterday saying, you know, because of, the gag order, i can testify apparently a few moments ago he cleaned that up prior to clarify it, let's play a little bit of what trump said yesterday, talked about on the other side and then get into what the judge just set right well, i'm not allowed to test if i am under again, i guess i can testify. >> now we're gonna be appealing they games. >> i love to answer that question is a very easy question. >> the easiest questions so far but i'm not allowed to testify, persist, judge. that's totally conflict. it has been under a unconstitutional gag order. nobody has ever had that before and we don't like it. and it's not fair sally, are like terms to todd, blanche, and the top blanche nods and shakes his head no what to say. >> i guess some lives have to

be cleaned up and that's what he did this morning and then the judge just a few moments ago said, no, you do have the right to testify of order has nothing to do with it. good. gracious. the statement by donald trump is so outrageous. sell off base. it's hard to know where to begin, but the gag order has nothing to do. 0.0 to do with donald trump's ability to testify, he has a right to testify. he has it right now. not to testify. there will be no limits on that, right. and by the way, the gag order let's just understand because i always think the name gag order is overly suggest if gagged suggest you can't talk at all. he can say almost anything he wants. he just has to lay off a witnesses jurors court staff, and families. i mean, we hear them going on rants almost nightly. he did this morning you did last night about the judge, not the da, about the indictment that's all totally fine. so it's quite a limited gag or i think it's worth noting. he's actually not violated the gag order. they should have one of those signs up has not violated the gag order, and i think we're on ten days now, so i don't know maybe he understands let's complying now, but jamie, it seems to me the reason why he

said that yesterday and he says that stuff like this out on the campaign trail as well. he thinks he knows his supporters are watching, right? he knows that, he knows are watching. >> this is one of the problems with not having cameras in the courtroom, not even having audio the way we do with the supreme court. he comes out if the start of the day, end of the day, and that message goes out yesterday. in addition to the gag order, he was saying things like he just couldn't talk. i mean, it gets completely convoluted, but to ellie's point judge, marchand was criticized for sort of holding on the gag order. it does seem to be working and he has not ruled. so he came out this morning and we got the usual round of grievances. he attacked the judges, the da president, biden but notably, he did not attack michael cohen. other witnesses, no mention of the jurors is always

fascinating. he's really transparent. you know, what's getting under his skin? what did he say? >> the judge's allowing salacious testimony and r. >> sayyed isn't getting anything in, but then donald trump pivot a few minutes later, he says the case is going fine. >> yeah. i do want to draw attention to what's happening right now because what we're seeing is blanche arguing that a specific truth, social from last august should not come into evidence, and that truth social actually was a problematic or donald trump in his federal cases as well, jack smith filed something. >> now, what he said in that truth, social was if you go after me, i'm coming after you. jack smith at the time raised this with a judge saying that he was threatening witnesses the trump team scrambled to say this had nothing to do with witnesses. this was about news reports that someone was spending money against him and the campaign. now, it appears it's coming up again and they're having a conversation about whether or not this should be included. blanche trying to say once more, this was not about

witnesses. i think that's very interesting that now receive a crossover in all of his legal okay. says particularly because donald trump tends to put his foot in his mouth, something like how do you, what do you think about how the judge's handling this balancing act? >> what gets it's an incredibly tight rope. he's on a tight rope. it's incredibly hard balancing act. i made a reference the secondary folks might have seen startups to mala know this standard in new york for bringing in prior acts of an individual and so on. and there are any number of very gray areas that judges have to sort out. one in this context of things they did in the past, their behavior, these prior bad acts, and that was subjective hearing, but also how you strike a balance between speech that's protected, particularly for political candidate. and frankly, the judge in his gag order referenced the fact that he wanted to be mindful of the fact that the former president is himself a candidate for office, but to ellie's point the former president really can say virtually anything in the world, including very explicit

things about the judge or, or even the elected district attorney and had seemed to behave better. i would note that in the context of another civil suit civil suit in the state of new york recently it was after the imposition of sanctions on the present, they actually started behaving and didn't carolyn, how do you think the jurors are reacting gold? >> well, let me just say about the gag order. i think the judge is actually doing trump a favor trump has two fronts here. he has the trial and he has the election but for as far as the trials concerned with the evidence that i've seen, if he can just zip he's way better off. so the judge by silencing him and threatening punishment, the quieter he is, i think the better that he does in terms of how our jurors reacting to this, i'm sure there sponges, just like jamie said you know, we're just peering through the courthouse door to try and see what's going on. the jurors are seeing everything. they're going to see when somebody has a vein in their temple that's throbbing because they're stressed,

they're going to see you when people get angry. but they're really focused on facts and jurors. i am a huge problem opponent of the jury system. and when people talk about democracy dying well, as long as we have criminal trials and criminal defendants have rights, no matter who they are, we have a thriving democracy and these jurors are going to do their job and they're going to focus on the facts and they're going to scrutinize the motives because that's what an adversarial process forces them to do. >> one of the key guard rails for our democracy will see if you can keep trump randa, when you said, if he can zip it, i thought i heard you say it's hard for him write that word. >> if is doing a lot of work. >> well, i think that's why his lawyers like right. you're you're going to zip hi guys. thank you very much. we're going to keep the conversation going any minute. we expect witness testimony to resume. the judge making a key point of clarification in forming the defendant, the former president united states down trump that he can testify if he so chooses. so the gag order excuses out the window trump's of course, wrong when he said that a gag order bars and for doing so we'll continue to talk

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it today, go chu pretty litter.com. >> i'll rafael romo at the georgia state capitol in atlanta. this is cnn the witness for the prosecution just now retaking the stand as cross-examination is beginning again, and donald trump as hush money trial. >> welcome back to cnn's special live coverage. i'm kaitlan collins here in new york. former president. we are told by reporters inside the room was just sitting at the defense table as his eyes closed, as he made a habit of his over the last three weeks as his attorneys are sorted through important legal

jockeying with a judge. but now the jury is out to make their interests into the courtroom, joining us now is criminal defense attorney bill brennan, who represented donald trump's payroll corporation in a tax fraud trial, and trump himself in his second impeachment trial. and he joins us again now, and bill right now, trump's attorney emil bove is continuing his cross-examinatio n this witness on the stand is not someone that anyone at home knows, or even most people who've been covering this trial very closely. but the importance of having these witnesses says come on to verify the authenticity and the data that they extracted from michael cohen's phone why is that something that's important for them to do in front of the jury? >> well, good morning, caitlin, and thanks for having me. i think in this case, it appears that the prosecution and defense were unable to agree on stipulations, which is common in most trials in with the innocuous type witness like this most times that testimony is presented by agreement or stipulation sometimes though not, and that's apparently the

case here. so the defense is putting the prosecution to its burden of proving the case. and these meat potato types of witnesses are important because it shows who's the jurors how the case is built, and it shows a frankly were flaws might come in and cracks in the ice. so it's it's a little bit of a snooze are compared to say cohen or pecker or davidson, but important on the less yeah. >> and obviously there has been wide speculation about what the next high-profile witness that could be called h1 and h2 that could be there was some haggling this morning inside the courtroom over for the access hollywood tape, which the judge previously ruled before this trial even started, that the prosecution couldn't actually show the tape to the jury, but they could read the transcript and they were arguing over whether or not they could show basically a screenshot of that video that

includes donald trump, billy bush, and the woman who was involved in that in that tape and in that conversation, it seems to be suggesting that hope hicks could be one of the ways and this is that we see soon. obviously she was closely involved in the monitoring the fallout of that situation during the final days of the campaign, what impact do you think she would have on the way? >> fitness sat i don't know what the offer of proof is. >> vermeer as x, but at some point, we're now i think at the end of week three, including of course, jury so at some point, the prosecution is going to have the start tying this to the defendant because what we've heard so far is a lot of salacious conversations and sleazy deals between a disbarred lawyer who was known as the fixer, the publication of a of a tabloid rag and a lawyer that makes a living on the bottom selling

non-disclosure agreements when people have trouble. so i mean the jury's heard a lot of as the world turns, soap opera testimony, but they, the prosecution has yet to tie it to this defendant. they've got to do that. >> and i assume the possibility is that they're going to try to say that ms hicks, while in her capacity at the white house was privy to some type of discussion are meeting but not all, even if she was that doesn't necessarily tie it to this defendant. >> and that's not enough. they have to wrap it up with proof beyond a reasonable doubt that the motivation here was to commit another crime that's what gets them to the felony. and if they don't do that, the felony goes and frankly, the whole case goes out the window yeah. >> i mean, and hope picks obviously is not someone who is a hostile witness to donald trump. they are still on friendly terms. she was once one of his top aides and closest confidant. so that would also seem to have an impact as well, will stand by

to see who that witness is. bill brennan, hang around with us because we have more questions for you. we are now seeing the first photos of donald trump in the courtroom. of course, there are no actual cameras in there, but we do get a shot of him when he sits at the defense table each day this is that photo that you were looking at right now as his attorneys are now? now cross-examining that digital forensics expert for the prosecution raising issues of the chain of custody in that gap, would michael cohen turned over his phones to the district attorney's office and when it actually ended up in government custody, we have more of these minute by updates with cnn's special live coverage ahead so this playoffs, great teammates trust each other. >> we're going to do a trust balls pinned up, trust. >> what you sent me up doc. >> i've told you use a dummy and with ai, we can look at so

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coverage. the way only cnn can bring it to you. legal insight, expert analysis, and real-time updates live from the courtroom follow the facts, follow the testimony, follows cnn welcome back to cnn special live coverage under the cost of washington and building block, witness digital forensic expert douglas daus is on the stand right now, currently being cross-examined by the former president's lawyers, trump's lawyers just eliciting an important fact from the witness. >> he says that michael cohen has signal that is the encrypted messaging app on his phone saying that the jury needs to know that it is difficult to recover messages sent using signal. the defense trying to make a implication here that there may be missing pieces of the story that are potentially helpful for the president, for president the united states, and elie, what do you make it this strategy

and how critical is that piece of audio that we heard yesterday? michael cohen talking to trump about the payment trump's saying, oh, yeah, can we pay with cash and cohen zig no, no, no, no. i mean i remember when that came out was in 2018. it was just a bright reasonable audio we cnn color. >> i have to think i have to think maybe some of the jurors had heard this audio before, but it's impact. >> do you think in this i'm going to make a dramatic statement. i think it's the single most important piece of evidence in the case because it is the onetime that we know of and will probably be the only time they hear michael cohen and donald trump talking to one another at the time this was all happening there's no substitute for tapes, tapes, no pun trump. all it doesn't matter. it matters what a witness, as in the box, but boy, tapes are always going to reign supreme. >> and that recording really kinda cuts both ways. >> as i said before, on the one hand, and by the way, they're talking about mcdougal payments, not stormy daniels

payments, but it's right around that time on the one hand, prosecutors will will like this tape because it absolutely shows donald trump knew that they were paying off karen mcdougal and was finding wanted it to happen one 50 ends up ami pays are off, but trump and cohen and make the later payment to stormy daniels but the defense is going to argue, first of all, why the heck is michael cohen a lawyer secretly recording his own client, ask any defense lawyer, i guess we don't really have any defense layer of you ever secretly recorded your client. they will look at you like you're crazy and i think the defense is going to argue this shows that donald trump was not apprised of the details. microphone the only the details well, in bove is asking about michael cohen's of phone being wiped. that's one of the tidbits coming out of the courtroom right now asking if the white raises questions about the audio file, you have to look at where that file came from. let's listen a little bit of that audio to talk about on their side. >> i need to open up a company for the transfer of all the info regarding our friend david

so i'm going to do that right away. and i spoke to alan about it when it comes time to the financing, which will be less what have to pay yourself getting old. i got no yeah. >> elliot, i mean, beauvais is really he's really going in on michael cohen's phone being wiped and so on raising questions about what being extracted from the bone and so on. but as, as elie was saying, a few moments ago that audio, you hear trump talking about cash. why else would he be talking about cash? i mean, well again wasn't telling me run-down and a copy of the new york post at the newsstand downstairs. there's a big distinction between something being explosive and powerful and newsworthy and important and interesting and good evidence since right? >> and there's a distinction here. it's not i would even go further than elie. i don't think it's great evidence for the prosecutors. the number of reasons la laid out where defense can say that donald trump was detached and almost

pushing it off and michael cohen, who a savvy defense attorney could say, was this rogue actor, not really working independently of the former president. >> i don't is asking if he knew what was transferred back to the phone. that file for certainly. yeah he respond. we're seeing a couple of things here. i think. one, you got to get out there, this idea of what signal and whatsapp, and these encrypted apps mean. but also for our people use them trying to cover their tracks. and you can plant in a juries head. and i think the defense of pounds on this that everybody uses signal. however, if you're a criminal or at least engaging in a criminal act, you might be using it to cover your tracks. and i think the result will use during the early sure. probably ministration because sources asked us the trump administration, please use signal because that's how worried they were about what trump was capable. carolyn cook, i did want to ask you what to ellie's point about how this might be the most explosive piece of evidence how do jurors respond to audio when

they here? >> the defendant in the case on on tape on audio. well audio is good. and audio is like a document. but jurors are going to respond to the case like a mosaic. so there's pieces of the puzzle and i use the analogy like a jenga, a jenga tower the audio is an unfinished conversation and there is a big difference between contemplation in consummation. and so like i always think about like like like it's silly, like you learned in law school, it's the unjust enrichment. you talk about, hey, would you paint my house? i'm thinking about paying my house and the guy pinch your house anyway, but i didn't give you the green light yet. so if there's missing information on cohen's cell phone and he's not the most credible person he's not credible. he has credibility problems. that's a problem. what's missing an you have or did they say, okay, this is where i mean, this is an unseemly world that we're

delving into anyways. >> so, yeah, there might be some unsavory care characters. the order they say, oh no, that person is not credible. >> it depends on the case in most jurors will hold the government to its burden to prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt. and witnesses is have to have some quality and some credibility. i think they're going to be a little stunned that that's a little bit lacking here. i do. i have seen jurors connect the dots, but they're in cases where it's like a serial killer and he's abducting girl scouts and they know he did it and they're willing to lighten up that burden approved because they can't sleep at night having a layman that is not a lawyer. i'm not an expert in juries i see what you're saying about people being completely astonish that a lawyer would tape his client. >> but if you take out that part of it to me, just watching it, listening to it. >> that's the first time that you've actually heard a conversation between trump and michael cohen up until now. they've painted even when the

prosecution has painted michael cohen as seemingly working alone in this end is saying that he's talking to trump. now you actually have made the connection that he does talk to trump and someone is apparently bringing up 40, 46 seconds of audio file that was cut off dos agrees he doesn't know how much longer the conversation between trump and cohen continued. that suggests that there might be some of the audio here that we don't know about or haven't heard before jaime gan go i mean, this here's another update. beauvais asking daus whether the reason cohen had so many contacts on a cell phone was because he's sink the phone to his laptop, which it's connected to his icloud i know i was on michael cohen contact one jamie we're getting to this. i do want to make this point how you address it. the fact that michael cohen was recording donald trump surreptitiously back in those days, were talking about what 2015, 2016, those days? suggest even back then, his own people,

his own attorneys knew well, i might want to recording of trump. what trump is saying. absolutely. there are two ways to look at it. it's sneaky and you don't like it. but he wanted proof that he was following orders. he didn't want he didn't have confidence that his client wasn't going didn't want to be the fall guy back to preserve the foreign the other thing about that tape, and i think it's important to keep saying that's about karen mcdougal. it is not stormy daniels but it does do two things for the jury. it gives them context that this was a practice. this is something and trump doesn't seem surprised. it's going so the thing that i'd say in response is that whenever the challenge with the reasonable doubt standard is that when evidence can go both ways, invariably juries awda resolve that in favor of the defendant. >> now. >> but i but i really don't know what we don't know we

don't know what a border would say is when there's enough of it though, eventually you start reaching a point of a conviction that's the power of carole lins serial killer example where there might be small instances related to each of the cases. but because they happened in a series and there's a number of them, a jury can probably feel more latitude to to convict. >> could i add one human point? michael cohen's going to take the stand and all of these questions about his credibility are going to the jury's going to see they're going to see him say he's ashamed. he apologized. he's going to admit he lied, he was wrong there's something on this tape that even subconsciously, i wonder if they connect, and that's his tone of voice well, even when trump says cash and you hear michael conchae no, no, no, no, no, no. there are human moments like that that you just don't you're the expert, you don't know how people are going to react to it, but that voice when michael

cohen says that that's michael coe, it almost sounds like michael and not only wanted to recording of all of those, but a paper trail. yeah look, the question naturally arise. >> why were you secretly recording this whole idea? oh, i was playing vigilante of justice. that's nonsense. his thing for trump or two more years. yeah. >> trump's one organism administration. yeah. trump's to trump's team is going to argue he was trying to set up his own client yeah. >> well, we're gonna get into that, obviously with michael cohen takes the might be some other headline witnesses taking the stand today, possibly kopecks, possibly stormy daniel's. i gotta stay tuned for all that big question today. will we see either of them on this dancing and reporters are inside the court house. as we speak to bring you the play by play. that's why you're seeing the tip bits on the left side of your screen, all that coverage going to continue and come back you right back. you're watching cnn special life every piece of

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what this seems to be happening, what trump's attorneys seems to be getting at is raising some doubts about this audio and not necessarily the authenticity of it, but whether or not the jury heard every exactly the reason the possibility that something may not be quite right with this audio clip so for example, they pointed out that there was a gap between the time that michael cohen signed over his cell phone to investigators and the time that they actually got the data off of it, then there are also noting that after this recording would have been made, there was a factory wipe of the phone, so then they're asking us as an expert will isn't it odd that that file was still on there and that there was a piece of it missing. now, delta one point just a moment ago, he said that if there would have been metadata that would have shown if this recording had been edited or modified, the defense attorney he's did not like that but there's an update. i'm told to the defense attorney is asking daus about another sink of the phone in october 2020 we don't know

what it was from the defense attorney asks, i do not doubt. so it's unclear that they've it's not clear that they've actually established anything in authentic or wrong with this audio clip, but they're just raising questions about the missing the missing piece is the jury following any of this? >> i mean, obviously we're not in the room, but like if you were the defense attorney here and you're obviously trying to maybe stretch out time or just raised some doubts about this guy, just trying to say, yeah, this is a real record. according it's authentic. i'm the person who extracted it from the phone. yeah. i mean, what is the intent? do you think of the defense? i mean, it's in the weeds enough for the jury to be wondering why are we spending so much time on this? >> but again, we've also had witnesses who had other perhaps mundane details just trying to get evidenced in but from the perspective of the prosecution, your want to use it in your summation later? brian, you want to suggest an answer to a question because the fact that michael cohen and an attorney has recorded the conversation raises questions immediately. why did you feel that you had

to what happened before and what happened after that made you believe that there were some reason you need to have documentation you've been the fixer for a long time. what was it about this scenario and complaining? that to what happened with david pecker's in the stan, what was it about this scenario compared to say karen mcdougal that made this be the divergent path that was taken. so the questions that are being raised by the jury are probably going to be why is it that we don't have everything? and then looking to michael cohen to fill in the gaps. now, that's a problem if you're the prosecution relying exclusively on it the hand based on his vision issues. and of course, you also have bove that both saying that we don't have to take michael cohen's word but what happened to this bone in 2020, but it's more than that. the i think it's work or what happened before and after if everything is also not there, that's why you have other witnesses to try to buttress is credibly advance yeah. >> but donald trump and michael cohen have not denied that that those are their voices on this audio. so i mean, it just seems like this is a tactic by the defense to try to sow doubt about this, saying you'd have to take michael cohen toward for it. well, it's data

forensics expert who was on the stand. it's not necessarily the case. yeah. one of the reasons is on the stand is because the from team refuses to stipulate to a lot of this, and the defense attorney asking they present questions about the reliability of the evidence. so here boom, there it is. that's exactly what they've been trying to do. and it's interesting because yesterday we saw the de a alvin bragg has kept really low profile throughout this entire case. he made an appearance right before this witness started, and i'm told by a source that he wanted to show up and support one of his employees is not used to being at the center of the case like this. and we know there's also going to be another summary witness on right after mr. vows. >> by summary witness, you mean someone else who's there to backup evidence and data and just lay it out, not someone who says i was part of these conversations with michael cohen and david pecker. >> that's exactly right. and the reason a lot of these folks like the c-span archives, that he spoke to the manhattan district attorney's office have to take the stand is because the trump team will not stipulate to this. >> interesting to think about what we're talking about. if you are, someone tells you don't picture a pink elephant that's all you can possibly see. if i'm telling you all of

a sudden, don't pay attention to anything on this audio recording and i'm the defense team. you're wondering, well, why don't you want me to pay attention to this? this is the one part of evidence so far. you've heard trump's voice. they know what trump sounds like. he was the president of the united states or in the same room with them and also working against is working and the content of it is i want we've heard this tape before this trial started. we've heard about this. the idea of no, no, no, no, no, no, that whole infamous phrase event, what he was doing and the intimation of why he wanted it. and so they've heard this, but what's more important is that they don't want you to focus on the one thing that might connect the knowledge of trump about the only the actual details but he was aware this was happening and then they left it off in some sort of ellipse, the middle that conversation which suggests that the average person, perhaps that we're not going to talk about the things that we don't want to be out in the public. that's why it's working against them. >> the alvin bragg thing is also interesting that you paul them that you mentioned paul because he is not the district attorney is up in there every single day i think he was maybe the first day and then those

only been in that maybe two days where he's actually of course, it's the whole timit prosecutors in there, but he himself is not always present. >> yeah. it's such a contrast to what we saw with attorney general letitia, james and her prosecution to the former president of her civil case against him because she smoke before the mics on her way and she spoke before are the mikes on her way out? she would respond to him. i often on social media and was told by sources that bragg is going to take a very different more traditional approach that most prosecutors would take, especially to high-profile case. you are not the star of the show. you don't certainly don't have to respond to anything the defendant says and you should not comment on the case and that's what we've seen from him or the past few months is again, it's been quite a contrast. some of the other prosecutors that's a really good point and the difference here, trump has attacked both of them, of course, regardless of how they have handled this. and bill brennan is back with us and bill, i want to ask you about trump's demeanor in the cord. you represented him in his impeachment trial of course. so you'll be familiar name to our viewers, but trump has had this moment where he

denied that he was sleeping in court. he said that he's only been closing his eyes for a sustained period of times. i believe he said his big, beautiful blue eyes as he's listening to these witnesses get on the stand and testify. now, when i was in court on tuesday, that was accurate. trump was clearly not sleeping but he would, have his eyes closed for a minute. i would count there have been times where he has been sleeping and maggie haberman said her sources of you and confirm that, yes, he wasn't sleeping, but but what do you make of his demeanor, of how he is acting as these witnesses are on the stand caitlin, it's very stressful to go through a lengthy trial, especially as a defendant. i assure you the former president is not asleep. he's probably closing his eyes to enable them to concentrate better or maybe it's some type of zen meditation moon. so he stayed he's calm, but they have to listen to your former lawyer who who surreptitiously recorded you to think about

these jurors, don't leave their common sense to the door of that courthouse. they're going to sit there's a couple of lawyers on the jury. it is abhorrent. it's repulsive than a lawyer would surreptitiously record his client. >> and we what do we know about this polluted source, this witness cohen, he's a convicted liar. >> he lied to congress the other witness davidson said he didn't trust them. i would take a big blow up head shot of him, the sides of a door. and i'd put it on an easel and my closing and say, would you buy a used car from this man? i mean, this guy is completely incredible. there's a great charge that judges given criminal hello, cases, it's more poetic in the latin falses in unum, falses and omnibus, what it means false and one false at all. >> the jury will be instructed if they find that any witness lied once about anything they can assume they may be lying about everything. >> i am convinced that the

defendant is does not asleep. he's he's listening intently well, as far as recording, i remember when donald trump is president implied that he had tapes of the former fbi director that he fired james comey. >> there was hanging out there for some period of time. so there's a lot of allegations of recording here, but i do want to bring your one up to date because the cross-examination by trump it's team has just ended. prosecutors got back up to speak to this witnesses witness who was really speaking to the evidence here, how they got that. did that tape, that audio tape from michael cohen's bone when he turned it over to the district attorney's office. they're asking about other recordings that beauvais asked about that are not relevant to this case? this export from the da's office is confirming that. so obviously we expect them to button this up here as it is a friday bill. what is something that you as a process of prosecutor would want to leave the jury with before they go home for the weekend to marinate on what this week has looked like. testimony wise they could play it two ways. i've tried against these

particular prosecutors and josh steinglass is a pro he's a career prosecutor. he's smart as a whip, and he knows what he's doing and he's comfortable in that courtroom. he could try to run out the clock today with more meat, potatoes, innocuous witnesses or he could put some star witness on and run out the clock so the defense doesn't get across today. if he puts ms clifford on, for example, he could leave the jury marinate with her direct testimony over the weekend might not be a bad move for him and i should note trump is riding on a notepad. he's handing it to his attorney, emil bove bay. that is the one who has been doing the cross-examination and also did the cross-examination of keith davidson, which the trump team believed was pretty effective yesterday is it got incredibly contentious inside that courtroom where he was keith davidson, who just a reminder was the attorney for stormy daniels who negotiated this agreement with michael cohen. all of these questions

about his past work and kinda bordering on this allegation that it was extortion, that he was bordering up on in his actions. do you believe that was active cross-examination by the trump team yesterday? today absolutely. >> i think mr. beauvais did a phenomenal job with that. and you've got a witness on the stand who is in the hush money business, who won't say yeah, it was hush money. always consideration and has made a career with whole cogen and tie it to kill it. and charlie sheen and countless others. when lindsay? lohan when they're having a personal problem in their lives going to them and saying, hey, it's going to come out unless and again, as i said earlier in this segment, kaitlan, these jurors don't leave their common sense of the door there. they're going to weave their life's experiences and to the law the facts, and they're going to make a decision here it's similar to that. a politician that shot that puppy dog and they said, well, it's

not a legal in my state. she killed a dog. this guy's a liar. you're going to figure it out. >> yeah. well, as laura coates is introduced, my new favorite phrase of the month is, this is no bus full of nuns that is inside that courtroom. >> thank you so much. bill brennan will be back with you. donald trump had been trying to sow doubt about the evidence and boiled is all down to a single question. the fill is just getting out there. can you trust mike? so co-ed words we do know we expect him to get on the stand at some point right now, prosecutors back examining a digital forensics expert, but we may soon find out who is next take the sand you are watching cnn's live coverage chasing put dr. you're sanjay gupta. >> listen wherever you get your podcasts. see idp disrupts cid p derails. >> let's be honest sucks but living with cid doesn't have to when you sign up at shining

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through my daco cnn saturday mornings starting tomorrow at eight on cnn all right. >> welcome back to our special coverage of the trump trial. no evidence of tampering a prosecutor you should digital forensics expert is still on the stand after giving important answers, just a few moments ago, he's testifying about michael cohen's devices. and if the evidence between from those cell phones can be trusted let me go to you, ellie, on this because we've been watching these clips of pop up on screen during the commercial break. there's this back-and-forth between the attorneys and this forensic expert about whether or not michael cohen's phone could be trusted? just a few moments ago, he was saying no evidence of manipulation or tampering of it at the same time obaid going back on cross-examination saying, hold on a second. do you see gaps in the audio this has been going back and forth. they're trying to shoot holes in the credibility of this audio, which is obviously as you were saying, a few moments ago crusher hats the most

crucial piece of evidence in this case. yeah. so people understand what happens here. this witness, mr. dorsey, works for the da's office. and investigators specializes in digital forensics. he went through two of michael cohen's cell phones from back when this is all happening the way he got those cell phones is the fbi seize them. remember, the fbi did search warrants on michael cohen date grab these two cell phones. so this witness has now gone through these. the data includes texts, emails, and the audio recordings and the difference is trying to poke holes in that they're saying, well, is it reliable? do you know who handled this or is there the possibility that that certain things were cut off or left out or manipulated, and essentially, the bottom line from this witness seems to be i've not seen any specific evidence that there was manipulation, but there also could have been in a way that i can't detect or there was at least the opportunity for some manipulation. and i think another point that the defense is trying to make is you have no idea what preceded this recording? according or what happened right after it just sort of cuts off abruptly, dialysis augustan, but elliott, i mean, how critical is this

exchange? i mean, obviously they're talking to the care into carolyn, you as well. they're they're talking to the jurors, hear about a very critical piece of evidence. >> certainly it's critical for the purposes of the defense because one of the strongest things are different since team can do is just at least posed. i'm just saying this asking question, just asking questions. maybe this evidence is doesn't have the integrity that you think it does. so there's a couple of things going on. number one, this concept of what's called chain of custody and the law. where was every step along the way that this piece of evidence, wet evidence went and was it tampered with along the way? and is it authentic? dick? is it the thing that you say it is now, look, common sense says even as a witnesses, i have no reason to believe that there's anything tampered with this. but as we were talking about in the break in the age of ai and deep fakes. so on. it is very important to lock up in front of a jury. is this thing what you say it isn't. i think the defense will return to this in its closing or whatever. yeah. >> care on what do you tell the devil is always in the details and there's a lot of word parsing what is the meaning of

is, what is the relationship? >> i have no reason to believe or what would be a reason would this be a reason? >> well, yeah, that would be a reason. and then all of a sudden there goes your jenga tower. so it is critical to the jury because the jury is looking for indicia of reliability and they will know if they don't already know that michael cohen has some credibility problems. so just because the jury's instructor, if you lie about a you lie about everything. jurors don't necessarily do that, and the jury instructions, they're all very well and good, but jurors are going to do what they think is right? >> and if cohen does manage to strike a chord of credibility, he's going to have to be credible to 12 people on really important issues. >> like did he tamper trouble apparently hit bove a's arm and gestured for him to get back up to the podium, but the attorney shook his head you know what jamie, somebody said no so to donald trump donald trump, as we all know thinks he's his best expert and legal advice

and attorney apparent attorney, but beauvais thought otherwise, enter just to go back to carolyn's point about what juries think i just keep going back to what the bar is here, which is beyond a reasonable doubt, which is a high bar. and we don't know what's going to happen. we don't know what evidence is coming, but we're just being told georgia long street called to the stand. apparently a paralegal at the da's office. >> okay. >> putting the pieces of the puzzle together but at the end of the day, if you are likely to have, let's say, a hung jury that one or two holdouts i think it's moments like this where we didn't hear the whole audio tape, right? what was said after that? it can raise suspicion get to hitting that bar beyond a reasonable doubt this whole we chuckle about trump tapping his lawyer on the arm and telling him to go up and their couple of moments

like a couple of moments like that and take this out of donald trump. >> there's an important point here you don't as a prosecutor or even as a defense attorney, you don't have to take every opportunity to argue they probably could have gone back up for a re-cross of the witness. you examination cross-examination, redirect, rico. but you don't have to. and if there's nothing new that could be gained from questioning the witness again, just sitting down because you risk stepping stepping in it in front of the jury. and i think maybe that's probably what was happening there when the attorney waive his client often happens all the time. >> there's we know about donald trump is that he has privately said that he doesn't think his attorneys are being aggressive enough now, everyone that i've talked to says this is just the way donald trump talks. there's no conversation about getting rid of them are cycling someone new? that he actually likes. these attorneys, but he wants to see them be more aggressive. and if you look at with the last question, was khan rey asking that if something were to happen essentially like you had a phone in your pocket and it was a call. could that have cut off the audio? would would it show up in a call log because that would be one maybe

explanation of why they tape cut off everyone's smirked, including the judge does for our reporters in the courtroom, including in coordinate, include including beauvais. then you see donald trump tapping him like get back up there. i'm not going to seven it. he asked his question, but we know that donald trump wants him to be continuing to press them at every turn. >> anybody who works with allotropic is tied up into a pretzel. i mean, they get tied up in knots we saw that the audio yesterday when trump was saying the gag order prevents me from testifying and his lawyers, todd blanche has next to him, nodding and shaking his that all on the same moment, not knowing what to make of what donald trump is saying at any particular moment. it's an age old push and poke. >> many clients want their defense lawyers to be constantly on the attack, but good lawyers, and by the way, both todd, blanche, and emil bove aid came from the southern district of new york. where i was raised as prosecutor. they know if you have a good piece of testimony, just leave it as is. you don't do a dance on to apparently is publicly available materials relevant clinton, donald trump's case, including social media posts

and news artist. so i was going to talk about yet georgia long street is not a familiar name. she's apparently a paralegal with the da's office. typically, you would call a paralegal. i've done this a few times just to do basic mechanics. yes, this is an article that appeared in the new york post on such and such a date. this is a tweet or a truth social that was sent on sunday let's and such a date, sometimes paralegals will also do summary information. for example, i looked at this massive phone records and in there there's got 48 calls between donald trump and michael cohen as mundane as that sounds lei, have to wonder if we're being set up for perhaps by the end of the day, we're going to get a headline witness. we're going to get us stormy daniel's, we're going to get a whole picks you can't think that the prosecutor is going to end the day with just sort of this humdrum audio recordings, documents, news articles. >> i think they're waiting to send the jury's let me was home with something to think about over the weekend. is it a day nine now, i mean, the jurors are you know, it's like they've got lives two to get back to you. and so where is here for a trial involving donald trump words, we need the

shoe to drop and i think if the prosecution just keeps waiting again, this is just my opinion because we're not the jury but it could be anticlimactic if they wait too long and it's going to have to be good. and i know a lot of lawyers will strategize that they want the bombshell to be at the end, but it's really going to have to be a bomb. all right? >> otherwise i mean, they say, oh, juries make up their mind and opening statement. they don't they do not. they absolutely do not. that was some study 20 years ago. it talk to jurors. they do not do that, not in a big case, not even in a small case, and lets us completely crappy, but these jurors want to have something to sink their teeth into all right. >> we'll leave that as the t's they're going into break. yeah, guys. thank you very much. great conversation coming up next a new witness, georgia long street, as elie were saying, if you must go, she's a paralegal for the manhattan district attorney's office. are reporters inside the court tell us trump is washington scribbling notes to his defense team, also tapping is nudging is lawyers did go do more do more so something happening in

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year of our lord, 2024. okay. i'm going to not make any more religious references. i was two and one intro. we have our panel back here with us. we also have robert hirshhorn, who has a jury zoltan, and attorney robert, let me start with you actually, because some people maybe at home wondering why is there a paralegal on the witness stand to having to explain what twitter is, what true socialize with a wayback machine is. and for people who don't know, that is a website where you can basically go and see what a website looked it's like on a certain date and case it was changed, scrubbed, anything was deleted. why is it important for this to be explained to the jury yeah. >> kaitlyn, thanks for having me look. the prosecution's dotting the i's crossing their teeth. they're going through the checklist here's the reality, folks. none of this matters to the jury where it de 11 of this trial. they're still looking for the evidence that connect next a crime to the defendant kaitlan. i got to tell you 11 days in the jury hasn't seen it yet, so they should hurry up and start getting to the stuff that matters to the jury, but this

doesn't but what about the argument that we've heard that they're kind of laying the groundwork here to get to that. >> and that's why they're introducing the figures like david pecker and keith davidson to kind of explain that. and if we do expect visually hope hicks to take the stand, maybe this afternoon it's not clear does yadav so we often find out when they're actually walking inside the courtroom. i mean, she is someone who would would she not be able to more closely tie this to mr. trump himself? >> sure. but look look at who the defendant is. he's a grumpy old man. he's like a petulant child is this really powerful person? he had he has fixers, right? he's not the kind of guy that's going to give very explicit instructions on the reason why we're going to pay this money as to influence the election. >> the state needs that kind of evidence and they just i mean, all if they have a video that we seen or heard yet, caitlin, i'm telling you you got a

really spurt jury they're the kind of jurors that may not vote for trump as president, but they might very well vote for him as a defendant. >> so the state that are starting that links trump to this book are doing is they're building a house. and if they're not, if it'll do it quickly, the people are going to move out of the house and not be interested in the state's case. >> do you think that's the case because you make a good point. this is a savvy jury. we know their profiles, their demographics. >> i mean this is a group who when i was in the courtroom on tuesday, they're paying very close attention to what is happening at one point, it almost looked like they were watching a tennis match as they are watching the prosecutor or the witness go back and forth with the question and answers as they were looking closely to each one. >> and i think we've been talking about michael cohen's credibility. we're all aware with the issues of that, but but we don't actually know yet how believable the jury will find michael cohen to be oh, he's toast okay and a-list, they have really strong

corroborating evidence. i promise you, this jury is not going to convict this defendant based on the word of his fixer and here's what's interesting, kaitlan, i heard a lot of hundreds talking about this, how the jury was fixated on the question in the answer. nobody was looking at the defendant. nobody was looking at the former president because sometimes jurors will look at the defendant to see how they're reacting to that information nobody is doing yes. what trump is like out of the picture. and if the prosecution wants to have any chance of winning this case, they'd better make him front and center and it better be stuff that goes directly to the charges in this case. >> yeah. we'll see what they choose to do with their afternoon. we still several more hours ahead, robert. thank you for that. and paula reid and laura are also back here with me and paula. what it seems they were doing by having this paralegal. they've taken a break now and the jury is living there and the judge's left the room. trump because

left the room. this paralegal seem to be basically trying to explain and set them up so they can bring in what trump has been saying. i mean, he's talked old stormy daniels and michael cohen, the people at the heart of this case, a ton. >> yeah, exactly. this is another one of these witnesses who has to come in because the trump team won't get pilate to the evidence that prosecutors need to bring in and look, putting aside the legal significance you just you kind of feel for these people. this is the biggest story in the world. these are two people that we've heard from today who work at the manhattan da's office. they're not used to this kind of attention. i mean, remember the cspan archivist he got on that he flew in from indiana. he got on the stand and he said, yeah, i'm i'm really nervous and me for a lot of people who live their life far away from the spotlight to be involved in this. it has got to be incredibly stressful, but her role is just to help the prosecutors and get in all these social media posts that they need to have as part of their case laura, what do you see is the strategy here just given your deep familiarity with a courtroom and how

they're structuring which witness they're bringing in because it seems like they bring in someone who really has a lot of salacious things to say was really in on one-on-one conversations, david pecker testified directly about donald trump but then they'll bring in someone who can explain what twitter has some truth, social, and bring in trump's social media posts or when they seem to be kind of dabbling it in for the jury. well, they are well aware of the clock. they know it's friday. they know that the weekend is looming and the negative gonna have to have an opportunity for the jury to think about what is less and fresh in their mind. remember the whole strategy. if you're presenting evidence, presenting a story primacy and recency and repetition. what you heard first and last, i can be the most impactful and what you continuously here, you add credibility and gave further gravitas to them. they know they want to get whoever comes in the afternoon that they want to time it such that the direct examination possibly will carry over until the on day that's a strategy to conclude the want to have they don't want to have a cross to try to tear down whether witnesses in any way or leave it even at an objection. but also, we've also talked about how delay delay delay was a tactic for

the trump litigation team. prosecution team wants to expedite the entire thing, but delayed is not stop once the trial actually begins, it is within the best interests of the defense to continue to try to delay that much longer. the longer it takes to get all the evidence through, the more that you have a witness coming in and explaining to people what truth, social and twitter is. and perhaps the way back. i mean, good way, back machine it sounds very back the future. and i don't know if you're going to have doctors and they gum. i mean, i mean, maybe delorean is covenants point in time, but all of it is important to have them suggests hold on from the jury the defense, once you thinking for this, i got up in the morning for this. i got called jury duty for this. i had to rush through my coffee for this. we're indicting a president of the united states at former president, i'd say they want that feeling of dragging on. that's why they wants it they know they could export all of us, but they don't want to. the quicker they can get through a presentation of evidence means that you have an uninterrupted story. imagine you're

binge-watching something. the longer you take away from each episode, the more you get distracted, the more you might not be willing to go back and lean. and again, if you can binge-watch over the course of a weekend you are a fan of the show. if you can't, you are going to be disjointed. this defense wants you not to binge-watch the presentation of evidence. they want to be structured in a way that makes you want to leave, come back, and maybe the focus on his eyes being closed, but it is their mind when you have mundane details, the defense wants that. >> well, and what about the tape? that everyone heard yesterday? you heard michael cohen's boy voice, probably the loudest because he was the closest to this audio recording that you've recorded of his conversation with donald trump, but you also hear donald trump on that and that is a powerful, powerful piece of evidence for this jury because it's actually the first time they've heard trump's voice this courtroom, he doesn't speak when he's inside the courtroom. he sits there, talks his attorneys, but you can't if you're a durer, you can't hear him. and is that something that the prosecution believes will be powerful for them to have in their minds over the weekend. well, they certainly think

it's helpful to their case because they introduced it. but as one of the lawyers noted earlier, the issue is it's not as i'm doing the stormy daniels right there. they're discussing the payment for karen mcdougal, not the stormy daniels payment, which is at the heart of this case. i think it is notable to hear them discussing a hush money type payment. but again, it's not the one that's at the heart of this case. so that's not going to make or break. we're still waiting for that evans connect the defendant directly to this a scheme to falsify documents, and we're still waiting to see who the next witness could be on the stand this afternoon in donald trump's hush money trial. the judge has just left the room during a brief break. the jury also out of the box, but when they come back, it will be that building block witness who's going to take the stand in manhattan paralegal reading thousands and thousands of trump's social chump related social media suppose you are watching skin and special live covers back in just a moment rather shooting

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your first claim painting today for just $19 i'm under roger than capitol hill. this is cnn it has been a busy morning and 100 centre street. >> that's what you're looking at right here, right now, there is a brief break inside the courtroom, but when the judge and a jury come back, direct examination is going to resume for the second witness today. >> it as a paralegal for the prosecution the unanswered question is if or when we'll see some of those brand name witnesses who we know. >> we're in the trenches of an alleged scheme that could potentially send donald trump to prison if he's convicted here, a big if names that we

have been talking about, michael cohen's stormy daniels, maybe hope hicks. i'm kaitlan collins here in new york fashion, washington prosecutors continue to lay the foundation this morning for their case against the former president, the witnesses are giving them a passage way to introduce evidence against trump recordings now social media posts, and we're seeing the former president transport his delay strategy from outside the courtroom to inside the courtroom, giving not a single inch to the prosecution's rush to put the facts on the record. >> my pants it is here with me, so now that the cord is in a break i think we expect them back momentarily at elie. could you just give our viewers an idea of what happened this morning and court? >> so the witnesses today have been technical, but still really vital to the prosecution's case and potentially to the defense when the day started, we had douglas daus on the stand. >> now he's an investigator, works for them and hatten de and his specialty is digital

forensics. he had gone through two of michael cohen's cell phones and they're using him as a vehicle, as a foundation to introduce evidence found on those cell phones, which will include texts could include emails and includes a very important recording, the recording that michael cohen made of his conversation with donald trump back in september 2016, where they're discussing the karen mcdougal pay out. the jury has heard that once i think what we are going to hear it again throughout the trial. now, on the stand is a paralegal with the manhattan da's office? named georgia longstreet, not an aim. anyone should be expected to know. and it seems like what she is doing is authenticating, laying the foundation for certain social media posts that donald trump put up. she's she earlier we had a note she was explaining twitter to the during good luck with that. she also apparently has gone through thousands of donald trump's tweets and truth social. she won't be commenting on them. she'll just be saying yes, this is supposed to be put up until the point you were making before dana, the reason we're hearing from these witnesses is because donald trump's legal team, as

is there, right. has refused to stipulate usually. not always, but at 90% of the time, the defense will say yes, we agree those tweets are in fact his tweets. you don't have to recall the paralegal donald trump is giving no quarter. therefore, all these witnesses are having to take the stand and at carolyn, you are expert on juries. here. how do you suppose? >> and i know that this is your enlarge part guessing, but it's informative. it's informed guessing about how the judge responds to a moment like we're about to see continue when they come back where you have a paralegal reading social media posts mean how the judge is going to respond to that, or the judge and the jury that the there kind of how a jury takes in and absorbs that kind of testimony as opposed to an actual witness giving information. >> well, usually the jury assumes that there's a reason for what's going on in front of them. >> and usually they assume that

the witnesses important, but they might finish that witness coming to the conclusion. why did why did we do have plus that was what i was getting and they might not really be able to figure it out and who knows if the refusal to stipulate is based on a real important basis or if it's just for tat, you won't tell us who the witnesses are. we're not going to stipulate if i were trump's defense team, i would do the same thing. why why why stipulate why not have the trial be as boring as possible? >> and jim the judge is going back through their back-end, obviously, going back through the exhibits that the defense is objecting to prosecutors said with the stipulation, they will not seek to offer the washington post article. so all of this is obviously very important when you look at the details from the point of view of a vote, the defense and the prosecution, what can the jury see? what can they not see, but what about the overall argument that elie was making about this takes time and it eats up time and ms part of the delay. but i

think you made a good point. it takes up a shocking all right. all the things that the things that go on, the testimony that's very interesting. the stuff that we want to talk about onset here. this is an exciting stuff but necessary if you don't stipulate and you have to go through these motions in order to get the evidence introduced later on. >> and jaime trump is looking at the screen as the judge is hearing arguments on the twitter posts being admitted into evidence. >> he has closed his eyes a couple of times today, but he does seem quite engaged at one point, a little while ago, he tapped one lawyers on the arm trying to get him to go back up to the point of stipulating and delay and i think lan jimmy's you we talked about this last week. it works against the prosecution, perhaps in this way juries, it's the prosecution's case if there

having to sit there for longer and longer, that may work against the prosecution on the other hand, to jim's point about the shock and awe moment i think when those happen, you sort of forget about today. okay, so let's think about a potential shock and awe bowman coming at some point. and that is one of the next big name? boldfaced names, who might take the stand? hope hicks is one of those who we do expect to see at some point. again, there's always been an aura around hope hicks and air of mystery, right? >> she's been with donald trump since 2015, but when with the family for years before that, she was privy to everything when nobody thought that donald trump was going to win, when nobody would join his campaign except for a few loyalties. she was by his sayyed. we know that she was in and out of that meeting that david pecker talked about in august of 2015, she is somebody that you would say knows where the bodies are buried. now, she does not have an ongoing relationship with donald trump. they're not in touch the relationship kind of soured.

and by that i mean, they don't speak. but they both hold a lot of affection for each other. donald trump's still speaks very highly of hope hicks. hope ics still speaks very highly of donald trump. there was just a moment after she was called to testify in january 6, and they read her tests of text messages out loud that some his orbit thought she went a little bit too far and insulting the former president, which caused a little bit of a rift. but again, they still have a relationship. this is not like some of those other people. >> and the one thing i think that is important to underscore is that because donald trump is somebody who doesn't email and he doesn't text on his own people have to understand that a big way that he communicates is that people, when they want to get to trump, they will text the person with him. and for all those years, it was hope hicks she not only is by his side, she was as one of those who was a film is a filter. and so so involved and

knowledgeable about everything coming to and from and as you comment on that, jamie, i should say that blanches objecting to a truth social post. where trump wrote, if you go after me, i'm coming after you and jaime. we have that truth social post up there right now. i mean classic all prosecutors want to get in trump's social media post to show his quote, pressure campaign against witnesses set to testify. so we're a little bit i'm doing two things at once. it's gag order and the actual and this is remodel. >> this is that's a really good point. yes, it's not risa 2016. and actually, jack smith enter this into evidence with the judge in their case as well say, this is interesting. >> the judge forgive. make chris and the judge is letting the social media post in saying he satisfied that the prosecutors have established proper foundation anything to help support keeping donald trump from going after jurors,

witnesses, just to go back to hope hicks for a moment for context in this particular case. we know a little bit about her testimony from michael cohen's case. and in that case, the documents the court documents show that her testimony is she did not know about stormy daniels in october, that she didn't know until november we don't know what else might come out in this case. but to christine's point about how what a trusted advisor inner circle that hope hicks is is when you look back at the molar case, when you look back at the january 6 case hope hicks was called to testify over and over again. she's in the molar report i think i the time. >> all right. well, the jury is

back in the courtroom now. i want to go back to new york and to caitlin yeah, dana, obviously we're watching closely the jury watching closely. they just took a little bit of a break. we do expect them to have several more hours inside that courtroom today and paula reid enlarged codes are back with me and the speculation of who could be the next witness. we know there are still a lot of high-profile names to come that will be the intense moments of questioning by the prosecution, but also cross-examination by the defense team. and i think what it really speaks to is trump doesn't know this paralegal who's on the stand right now, but a lot of these have been central figures in his orbit. keith davidson was a notable in one yesterday, he had not been in the same room as donald trump ever. i believe until they were in the same courtroom together you wonder how this is all going to play out, because if the prosecution's strategy is to suggest that he has millions, he has people who is dead elevating things to do. >> and you really hit. he wants to have his hands and fingerprints off of everything well, then it might make sense.

the jury, you haven't heard people immediately connect the dots. what would you expect to be the case? the person who's the head honchos so the one to actually delegate to be in every room where it happens or would you the person to have their legion of fans or employees who were something on their behalf. but if every time we go on break or you have the judge leaves the bench, the jury does as well. >> can we talk about what happening here? it may seem small, but it's actually something we've not seen the trump do yet, which they agreed to a stipulation indicating that the washington post did publish an article on october 7, 2016? a day that many of us remember very well when it was access hollywood tape, but that happened at 401 pm. it was a friday afternoon and this is notable and this is an article in and of itself, this was the photo that trump's it's team objected to being shown earlier. it's billy bush, the woman in the middle, and donald trump, the three who were heard on that audio recording, paula trump's team has not stipulated almost anything during this trial. they have made the prosecution bringing these mundane witnesses. the

witnesses themselves are not monday, but their testimony is to talk about these things because they would not agree to that yeah, exactly. >> so here we're seeing a stipulation. the trump team was concerned and the judge express concern to about having the jury see that article, because as you saw, it had the word lewd in it. he thought that that could potentially be prejudicial, which is why here they resolve the situation by stipulating to just get the date of the article and that's what significant now the judge is saying jurors the stipulation is the information the parties have agreed to without the need to call a witness. >> and as you said, we've seen so many witnesses who only had to come and testify because they couldn't agree to this. now, a couple of moments ago so the judge allowed in many social media posts. and the reason i'm bringing a lot of those in is just show trump's pattern of alleged intimidation of several of the witnesses in this case, especially storm and daniel hills and michael cohen. now, the judge right now is telling the jury that this stipulation should be considered as any other evidence. so what is significant here is the date of the access hollywood tape being

revealed a roughly a month before election day. >> i mean, talk about pulling teeth though. just think about this. the one thing i'm going to stipulate to is there was an article on this date that is it. that is the equivalent of you got to prove every single thing. i've you want to prove today. it's friday. you better bring a witness to do but what they can bring in without the actual video, they can bring out the fallout. they're actually saying prosecutors are playing now, the statement of trump released he released on twitter and respond to the access hollywood tape. remember the judge? it is. the judge said, you can't and i actually play the tanno. any people have already heard the tape, the content of it finds me to prejudicial, but now he actually didn't play his response to it. here's the end. he says, anyone who knows me knows these words, don't reflect who i am. i said it, i was wrong and i apologize, obviously alluding to the idea of whether one is grabbing women by the, you know, what's the reason the judge it had to fight this point is because they're always weighing what is probated leading, informational for the jury, and what's prejudicial meeting. it's going to harm or lesson

is view as the jury, they're balancing is all the time. now, the whole crux of this though for the prosecution's case is what was the fallout from this? what was the reason why they wanted to either get ahead of it, why they wanted to react by maybe paying someone not to speak about an issue that may have been the falling additional straw on the camel's back. i, ii, and acu station that there had been an extramarital affair with somebody who is a porn star and director. and so this is all about the prosecution finally moving the case that much further. we're now in the part where i think most people are saying and the jury box oh, this is the part that i was actually supposed to be here for the video was played by the way, while imbedded within the trump tweet on the very screen. >> well, that's notable because this is the second time the jury has heard from donald trump himself. and it's he couldn't play the access hollywood video, but they do have permission to read the transcript. obviously doesn't have the same impact as actually having a video. but having donald trump come out and acknowledge that those were

his words, but he says they weren't words that, you know, that we're familiar are ones they used often was his defensive that what's the what's the intent there by the prosecution to play that? >> so the reason the access hollywood tape matters in the context of this case, this came out in early october and we know from keep day if it's in renewed interest in stormy daniels story and/or she thought she had a greater opportunity to maybe get paid out because the access hollywood tape, i mean, that was a bomb inside the campaign. we have another update from inside the court. >> so this new trump trump tweet reads the very foul mouth, senator john mccain begged for my support during his primary murray, i gave he one, then dropped me over locker room remarks, so they're just showing how trump was responding in the wake of the fall out from the access hollywood tape. >> but the reason that takes matters is because it puts so much pressure on the trump campaign. and what prosecutors would argue is that is part of why he had to quickly pay this hush money to stormy daniels let's to suppress her story to help his chances of getting elected.

>> we also have former manhattan district attorney, karen karen friedman, agnifilo here with us. so i should note, is of counsel to affirm that represents michael cohen and she has no contact with him, doesn't work on his case, no restrictions on what you can say. karen third seems to be something that the prosecution is doing here, which is they just play the video of trump in response to the dropping of that access hollywood tape or he acknowledged those were his words. and then apologize for them. and now and are showing post from him on social media denying it, saying nothing ever happened with any of these women totally made up nonsense to steal the election. nobody has more respect for women than me. he's defending his, his baby are women. he also was criticizing the late senator john mccain for essentially not supporting him because of the comments he made on that axis. it says hollywood tape. what do you believe the prosecution is trying to do here i think the prosecution is trying to set up the fact that donald trump has made numerous statements, often in conflict flipped with one another.

>> and so they are trying to establish both a timeline of these things. how important these things were, as well as the fact that donald trump will do nice certain things admit certain things, and contradict himself in different areas. and that's going to be important evidence. i think for the prosecution in this case does it seem based on the fact that they are now getting into the nitty-gritty of what happened around the access hollywood tape. >> and write for the election that we may see he's someone like hope hicks take the stand after we've seen these witnesses testifying about evidence. and social media post. i mean, this seems to me like there for potentially setting up the her because she was someone who was right there with the trump campaign when this is happening. she was very involved in the efforts to respond to it publicly and to talk to reporters the washington post, i believe reached out to hope hicks when they were publishing the access hollywood tape to see if donald trump was going to comment while he was in the middle of debate prep at the time yeah a

very, important element for the prosecution is to prove that the reason donald trump was doing these hush money payments and hiding the source of the money through falsifying business records wasn't to protect his family, wasn't about melania, not finding out that he was cheating on her with not one, but two women at the time the whole point of this is because this was election related and all of the evidence that you're seeing come in right now supports that and show those that this was a really intense time. >> they really wanted to keep this information away from the voting electorate and they just introduced another post from donald trump on august 4, 2023, where he said on truth, social, and all caps, if you go after me, i'm coming after you. why would prosecution introduced that truth social post from donald trump i think it just shows how threatening and menacing he is.

>> and how he goes after people. he goes after witnesses. i mean, this is a way of making donald trump look unsympathetic, looking very much that he is in control of all all of what's going on. this isn't happening to him where michael cohen is doing something behind his back and spending doubled more than double the money that stormy daniels, for example, was demanding, don't forget the settlement. there was hundred and $30,000, but michael cohen ended up getting paid, i think triple that. right. and this just goes to show how donald trump was. so viciously cern with making sure that the evidence was what it was, that the people who came after them knew that he could come after them back yeah. >> and i should know his attorney, todd blanche has just began cross-examination of that paralegal. we'll see what questions the defense has for her. karen friedman hello, we'll check back in with you. the jury inside that court is

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cnn special live coverage. >> big news, right now inside the courthouse in new york city prosecutors have now called hope hicks to the stand. it is a big, big moment, as i said, for donald trump and for this hush money trial, where he is the defendant, i want to bring in well, scharf, who is a former attorney for donald trump and republican candidate in the missouri attorney general's race, or you just heard the big news? you know, hope hicks, you have been familiar with the relationship that she has had as a very, very close adviser to donald trump. what your expectation in this testimony? >> we'll look somewhat limited in what i can say, unfortunately, because of the wildly unconstitutional gag order that's been placed against president trump and our team i can't comment on what her testimony might be or really anything about that. i will say i think this is the

latest in a long string of witnesses we've heard from the prosecutor fusion, who can't really speak to the core issues here, which are business records that were made in 2017 by trump organization officials in new york while president trump was running the country from the white house in washington, dc. i think this sort of smoke and mirrors campaign by the prosecution is calculated to really distort the issues that are the core of this case. and we'll have to see how things proceed in the coming weeks. >> yeah. i understand what you're saying about the gag order being pertaining to witnesses and obviously she is a witness. she is currently on the stand, but what i'm asking is for you to talk broadly about the kind of connection that she has and any potential concern that the campaign might have without specifically talking about her testimony will look who picks obviously worked for the president for a very long time. she was a close eight of his for a very long time. but with respect to what

she may or may not say in the courtroom because of this unconstitutional gag border. i just really can't comment on that all right. >> let's move on to some of what we have heard this morning as we wait for hope picks to actually take the stand and we will be reporting obviously as those questions from the prosecution begin just kind of looking a bit holistically, david pecker testified he had concerns about the legality of the deals with stormy daniels and karen mcdougal since trump was a presidential candidate at the time, keith davidson, who was the attorney who helped both of those women he made the deal to assist and the question is whether or not what you heard with regard to keith davidson whether that is a testimony that worries you as an attorney and as a supporter of donald trump look with respect to keith davidson's

testimony, i think the prosecution is closer to proving and extortion case against president trump than it is a business records fraud case that he committed again we're far away from the core facts of this case. >> we believe that the core facts of this case show that president trump did absolutely nothing wrong. and i thought a meal beauvais and todd blanche, i think emil bove, an todd blanche have done an outstanding job cross-examining these witnesses so far, really showing that they can't connect president trump to any crime that was committed. and i think we're going to see that continue to play out in court as we move through witness by witness here and just before the prosecution and the defense actually wrapped up with the paralegal, who they had on the stand to read the social media posts part of what they were getting at and part of what the jurors heard was not the access hollywood tape because that's not allowed. >> but the statement that

donald trump made after the access hollywood tape came out and some other social media posts that he put out there does that worry you that the jury is now hearing about that, particularly given the fact that it was seemed to be a precursor to the whole picks testimony which is starting right now. >> we'll look under the rules of evidence. i think much of these materials should have been excluded. their probative value is so slim with respect to the charge defenses here and the chance of prejudice to the jury here in front of the jury so great that i think that was a real evidentiary mistake here, and we'll continue to look at our options there. i will say that we've seen over the last couple of days. i think this came out most notably with a bove's cross-examination of the forensic examiner over the last two days. that they're serious evidentiary holes with the case. when we think about proper chain of custody, when we think about normal evidentiary methods. and i think again, that's going it'd be a theme we're going to

continue to see play out in the weeks ahead. all right. thank you so much for joining us as we have this tremendously dramatic moment happening as we speak in new york, kaitlan, we're hearing from our colleagues in the courtroom that hicks has now entered. >> she walked behind the galley, behind trump trump and attorney blanche smiled toward hicks. kaitlan yeah. >> and just to explain the layout of this courtroom, the witness enters through a door. they go in front of whoever's there with trump does that day. we know some of his political aides and other attorneys that aren't on this case are actually the room. but they walk behind the defense table and then they make their way over to the witness stand. they are very close within feet of the jurors. and so they're much closer to the prosecution. can table as they sit there and it is obviously the prosecution who is going to start with these questions for hope picks. she just said, quote, i'm really nervous while looking at the jury. obviously she is not someone who likes it's to be in the public eye. anyone who covered donald trump knows this

when he wants, called her up onto a stage at a rally without her knowing before and that he was going to do that that she was embarrassed as she made her way up there. she's very shy and not someone who likes to speak publicly. it doesn't surprise me that donald trump and todd blanche smiled as she past him. it is. she is still someone that donald trump sees fondly. i should note she doesn't longer work for the former president and any official capacity. she is someone who returned to the white house. of course but they didn't actually have a bit of a chilling effect on their relationship after her testimony came out before the january 6 committee or her text messages were revealed. there for of what she had said two other aids on that day lamenting what had happened. she believed to donald trump's legacy. so a pivotal moment now that one of donald trump's closes aides is now on the witness stand in this manhattan courtroom. >> we are told that trump is looking towards hope hicks as she is beginning her testimony. >> he's leaned back in his chair. paula reid he didn't. laura codes are back here with me and paul up just to see hope

hicks get up there. >> reminder of what she was in 2016. >> it was damaged control mode when so many of these troublesome and damaging stories were coming out about donald trump. and she was on the bonus michael cohen, she was on the phone with donald trump. she was the person reporters reached out to in most cases. exactly. she was the press secretary. she's of course been a close confidant for for many years until recently, as you noted with the january 6 committee, to help multiple positions inside the white house. but at the time in question is who is a press secretary for the campaign? and i think you're going to see prosecutor there's actually been started before 2016, going back to 2015 because david pecker testified that hope hicks was in and out of that critical meeting between pecker cohen and trump, were pecker said i will be your eyes and ears sort of sets the stage for the hush money payments and the catch and kill efforts that come now, the allegations against michael cohen and his federal hey, is prosecutors allege that hope hicks was on the phone when michael cohen and trump were discussing the fact that stormy daniels wanted to sell her story. now hope

picks is subsequently testified that she was not aware of any hush money payment or any reimbursement which is really the part of this case. >> so it'll be interesting to see how prosecutors walk through her testimony and what it is that they want. >> now, apparently, she said, i was enjoying a hopes as hope hicks talking right now about her background. so we do with any witness. she said she began working for the trump organization full-time in october 2014, and she was really young. i mean, she started working for donald trump's shoes in her mid 20s and she began working for the trump organization. and then when he announced that he was running for president, she wouldn't work for his campaign and went on in the woodside, the white house to be someone that he trusted deeply. i mean, donald trump had this circle around him and hope hicks was certainly someone, you know, he would yell through the walls to get her attention for her to come in he was someone that she relied on laura on a day-to-day basis. it was certainly involved in even sensitive discussions and if she's testifying, i should note pursuant to a subpoena, she is paying for her oan attorney, which is also significant here, and to from white, say, rhona,

his right-hand woman was doing who worked for the trevor if are 30 something years and talked about but you see her whole purpose here? sure. is essentially to be the connector between what the campaign was thinking about the fallout from the access hollywood tape and what the ultimate decision as in terms of paying. and there was a moment earlier today, there's an update to that she had last contact within by the way, the last time to contact with him was in the summer or fall of 2020 to talk about that children affect octo january 6 hearing. it's almost two years ago, and apparently she walked by, did glands towards the defense table as well, although he is leaning back in his chair and applying smiled towards her but there was a moment earlier today that we actually got to important tweets that came into evidence and one was donald trump on october 16, 2016 saying polls close, but can you believe? by lost large numbers of women voters based on made-up event that never happened media rigging election. >> another one is nothing ever happened with any of these women talking about it respect been as big one. the next october 17 can't believe these

totally phony stories. 100% made up by women, many already proven false and push big time by pressing comma have impact. that's important because we want to understand what the prosecution's cases they want to prove that there was a reason why they wanted to contain the fall out from the that's as hollywood tape, him coming out on twitter and make statement not going to be enough. it also hope two the relationship, right now, laura, what you were just saying that she says they haven't spoken and nearly 42 years, trump is not a client of hers and her current professional roles. >> she says it doesn't work for them and we're hearing this is not someone who often speaks publicly and she's very nervous he's made that clear several times. she says she's getting used to hearing your own voice on the microphone and courtroom. it's a small, dingy courtroom, but it is just an unusual moment. to be sitting there with all of this huge team of prosecutors, 12 jurors to your left it also kind of speaks to this moment of all these people in trump's orbit who have been brought into this i hope hicks was subpoenaed to be here. she did not want to be

here, but she was at the center of the story that the prosecution and she's crying for our tree. that's an important part here. because if you are trying to to show that some witness is either leaning one direction or i gather your immediate years, year, almost spite who does go up and say, well, hold on if he's paying for your attorney, does that mean that you're beholden to him and his team? or are you more independent and be motivated singularly, she's paying for own counsel, not talking to him that actually ups ups her own credibility in terms of objectivity. >> and i think there's no one who's ben and trump's orbit over the past seven years, who has an n-bit ended up either testifying before congress, testifying in a court of law, or themselves indicted right? it's speaks to the blast radius of a lot of his conduct. this is one of his closest confidant. she was like a daughter to him and he or she is in a court of law, clearly very nervous and having to testify about things that he and michael cohen allegedly did. >> yeah hope hicks is someone who can shed light on this. >> i mean, we knew she spoke to the grand jury. i believe it was about a year ago. right? before he was indicted. choose one of the last witnesses that

we knew in his orbit that had gone before them and as she is at the center of this, she was always the one that reporters we can do. she issued a lot of these denials and so i imagined prosecutors are going to ask her, when you went to donald trump and asked him about this, what was he saying to you directly and why was he so concerned? >> that's the key. remember, the fact that there was a catch and kill, not inherently legal if he wanted to simply protect his family and his marriage, that could be a condition for this, judge and the jury. right. but the question is, if you were doing it for the purpose of trying to influenced the campaign. now, the criteria in new york has to be, was it a substantial reason? it can't be like if others a small iota that you were trying to have the campaign and the oval while me ask that was for your wife and family to hide it from that's different than being substantial. and so the question for her is going to be, why why did they want this story contain what was in and also she says in 2014, she started as the director of communications for the trump organization. she would have knowledge from two years prior to any of this coming out from

the catch and kill and beyond? and before the election. but again, it's important to figure out what she knows about the motivation that's why she's so important. the prosecution. >> what did you know then uncross course? >> now you're talking about the equivalent of how to treat her. is it as a hostile witness? she was she apparently is not one is it about trying to understand and i'm so her as the nervous i don't want to be here. they're making up here. you don't really know anything, do you? but they want you to add here and then she also says that she began to have with trump contact more frequent member. she's not working with these bonk if i'm not mistaken, i was her original entree into the trump family and then became this and she says, he's a very good multitasker. he said very hard worker. he's always doing many things at once. okay. can i can i say, you hearing her say that you just brought up rhona graff, who was donald trump's longtime executive assistant since it came and testified and also said really positive things about trump, but also said she saw stormy daniel's outside of his office on the 26th floor of trump tower, that

stormy daniels and karen mcdougal to go warn his context, hope has is someone who is getting up there. she doesn't have an ax to grind against donald trump. she doesn't it show the spoken him in two years, which is also really notable. and i should note she saying that was it's not unusual for her to be in and out of his office as she was getting closer to i've been working in that political work and so far we are reporters in the courtroom say that she is avoided looking directly at her former boss hamas donald trump. >> but i also think she's someone who is going to be believable to this jury because she's incredible, because she's not someone who is there as we'll likely see with michael cohen who have been very different demeanor. yes. so i think they're just going to focus on the facts or the prosecution. right. what was discussed in that meeting with david pecker? what was your role in the campaign? how about 20:15? he said that she spoke with trump on the phone every day. if we weren't able to communicate and personal that update right before did 11 39 was important because she said basically everyone who works there reports to trump she that's a chain of command that they're establishing. >> that's really key. and i think they're going to want to talk about these discussions about daniels looking for

money. she said but i would occasionally call the office and be connected, but he had a cell phone or home phone number as well. so she's clearly very close to him and prosecutors are going to want to hone in on what she heard from michael cohen, what she could have potentially heard about efforts to buy stories to catch and kill stories. and then you're also going to want to talk to her about the access hollywood tape that necessarily the content of it. but the impact that it had on the campaign, how much pressure was the campaign under? how, how is it then candidate trump reacting to this? because again, that is such a a key part of the timeline here to make the argument that this was done isn't the election. this is a name that is not really been brought up. keith schiller, everyone who covers a donald trump or the white house, remember? excuse schiller, are just trump. he has been trump's longtime body guard. essentially, he his body man inside the white house. he travels and accompanied trump on basically every trip he went on and hope hicks is now saying that trump had a close relationship with keith. keith schiller, law for people don't remember keith schiller was the one who delivered the note to

the justice department when they fired james comey. cnn found that out because are no a great spotted case-shiller coming out in the doj, which was very unusual because you don't typically see the president's bodyguard over the doj hey this is speaking to who was around donald trump when all of this was happening at that time. >> and interesting as well. remember, we have to go back to weather's update right now. we're having the courtroom to don junior, eric, and ivanka are hicks gestures or hand toward the defense table they are mr. trump's children saying keep your iso towards the prosecutors only her hand motion i'm just going towards a matter eyes, but here's important. remember this is a falsified business records case her talking about the fact that he had his hands in everything a multitasker go back to david pecker's testimony when he says and he remembers trump walking in and he was rhona graff coming into shawm invoices and he was aware that there were invoiced of what he was signing. he had a new and head knowledge, of things. never forget that the prosecution has to keep returning to why we're here. it's not just about access hollywood, it's about the 34 counts of whether he is falsified business it's

records from the actual fallout and here we go. new update hicks is sought talking about rhona graff and she says she was crucial to how everything ran on the 26th floor first, she had a lot of institutional knowledge, so the jury's gonna go back to the notes and think, well, what do i remember her? i remember from an annulus was in the contact information. i remember karen mcdougal was there well, that she may have been in trump tower. there was a conversation about whether she's going to be cast in celebrity apprentice. and then he was respectful. >> she said that rhona graff was crucial. to everything, ran on a 26 floor outside of trump's office and kinda described the trump org as a small family business saying that it was a compact group of people who were in on what was happening in the prosecutor is asking finger, are you familiar with someone named allen weisselberg? of course, allen weisselberg right now and hope hicks said, yes, is sitting in a prison in new york because he just pled pleaded guilty took a plea deal for the second time. he is notably not expected to be a witness here which stands out given his crucial role in bookkeeping the money of the

trump organization. yeah, the two convictions for lying, though, basically make him useless to eat or side even though he has come up multiple times, we even heard cohen and trump talking about hi allen weisselberg had allegedly advice cohen about setting up that shell company or setting up a company to pay cubic karen mcdougal money. so he would have been helped full witness, perhaps even for the defense, because they're going to bring out a bunch of trump organization employees. we're going to say something very different about trump's knowledge of how these invoices are made his knowledge to how cohen was being paid back. that is their strategy. he could potentially have been useful to them. but at this point, given his multiple convictions for lying, he is not how expected to be witnesses, but hope hicks, who is someone who can say will allen weisselberg did this, michael cohen did this phonograph, did this. i did this. i mean, she can speak intimately to the inner workings of trump's circle. >> but what she has to also say is that nothing was done without donald trump defense is going to try to paint a picture of sycophants who are i mean,

the word fixer. we use it very loosely and talk about he fix problems. but any fixed problems at trump was aware of and they do at the direction of trump exclusively or did he autonomously independent? we fix things before the big boss even knew about it. if that's the case, that the latter is the case, then you have to be very different and your ability to prove that donald trump member, he's the defendant here the donald trump intentionally did something to try to cover up a different crime. this being campaign finance contributions and not disclosing them. and did so with an intent of trying to influence the actual campaign and falsified business records. so if she's going to come and say allen weisselberg handled all the invoices, trunk disorder, signed off. he trusted what they had say, what they were going to do, their long-term relationship made it such that trump did not really glands several times what was in front of them that difficult. now, hicks also said that she was hitting to the camera payne work. it was weisselberg who helped with the personal financial disclosure. trump was required to provide kaitlan and that's notable. dana, because hope hicks was someone who is obviously

running in a top position on a campaign that we talked about what the 2024 campaign looks like, the 2016 trump campaign was chaotic, and that's a generous term to describe when she's saying that allen weisselberg helped with the personal financial disclosure form that trump was asked to provide. she is saying that this is someone who is directly involved in the finance aspect of this in these forms that we were turning over. and she's saying that allen weisselberg, who has paulina so did as two convictions provided an explanation that they'd share with the press about how trump quote, self financed his campaign. obviously, dana, he never put anywhere near as much money in his campaign pain as he had publicly boasted that he was going to do yeah. >> absolutely. >> thank you so much. kaitlan. and as we talk more around the table, kristen, i want to bring you in and we're going to forgive me ahead of time for interrupting because we're going to really stay on these updates are coming in very quickly. colangelo's who is on the prosecution, sayyed, asks about michael cohen's role at the trump org. so, so far we have seen him kind of establish

who hope hicks is and how well she knows all of the players. this is the key, the most key players so far. remember, was really small group of people at this time and hope was everywhere. she knew michael cohen well, she knew allen weisselberg. these were people who had come from other parts of donald trump's life came into the campaign because there was no actual campaign with kaitlan talking about the chaos that was there. they were bringing people and they were firing people. they were bringing in people from trump's past. we roger stone was advising at one point, paul manafort was somebody who trump had worked with years ago these are the people who had really helped form, who trump was as a business management part of his life and his days in new york. hope hicks was part of all of that. she was there really running point and something you said earlier, i think is really important. donald trump now he does text, but he didn't text before, didn't use email you got a call from hope hicks at that time period, you thought donald trump might be calling you because he was by her side and that's when you'd say,

okay, this might be donald trump. i need to get on the phone. yeah. i mean hi, mr. trump for you hope picks says she doesn't specifically know what cohen did but that he was involved in some licensed deals for hotel projects and some of the entertainment pieces. jamie. so it's very interesting that she doesn't specifically no, i would assume the prosecutors would like her to describe what the relationship was like how cohen interacted with to trump to give some context to that. so this is explaining how she began working for trump's presidential campaign in 2015 well, mr. trump, one day said, we're going to iowa and i didn't really know what i mean. that's actually classic. yeah, because sheet to say that she was a political is an understatement that initial iowa trip was sometime in january of 2015. i mean, she came from the corporate pr

world and he had very, very few people around him who knew politics. they also came from that world. >> she ended up as the press person on the campaign, but she didn't even know why they would go to iowa. >> that's very telling trump and blanche appear to be watching her testimony on the screen. the screen above them in the courtroom, elie not sure why they wouldn't just look at the witness. >> and she's right there. here's what prosecutors are building up too. here ultimately, hope hicks was the ultimate insider as you all three of you know, and prosecutors are focused on this crucial moment in time, right after the access hollywood tape drops, october 2016, weeks before the election. and the way matthew colangelo described that moment during his opening is that the campaign went into quote, damage control mode and i think they're going to elicit from hope hicks what was happening inside the campaign, how concerned were you? the other crucial thing is hope hicks was in and out of a vital meeting in august of 2016 between trump, cohen and pecker

hicks recalls trump at one point saying she'd be the campaign's press secretary and she thought it was a joke because she's had no political experience. he says, she spent so much time working on the campaign. it eventually just ended up that way. jim learn on the job i go into iowa and then jumping right into it. i do think a look. >> we're seeing her be very candid, i think. >> right. and i think she's giving an honest view about herself, about herself, what her role was saying that she's nervous. i believe she was very nervous when she when she started. this is just going to interrupt you. bye. saying that hicks on her role as press secretary, it was kind of constant a constant flow of incoming questions. so i manage all of those and tried to respond to everybody in a timely manner. it was just me and mr. trump who is better than anybody at communications and branding? >> yes, definitely. >> plan to the boss here, but also that's what she honestly thinks.

>> and there was no communications team at this point in the campaign. she said she was and he wasn't sure. did have a plane to go and i and she's got to take all the incoming and respond to everything and eventually that team grew. i do think that you know, again, she's being very candid here about her role. she's being very candid about trump at this point in time and what he did and how he operated kind of funny that she said, i don't really know what michael cohen did like what rowley played, like. i'm not sure what the guy did around the office all the time. dana, that's kinda telling i want to point out one thing is actually just remember this anecdote. my husband was the embed on the trump campaign in 2016. i remember him telling me a story about how the very beginning he reached out to hope for something and she responded off the record and on background from a source, but not off the record or if independent that he was like, wait, what's happening now? i mean, just reliving this, that she was brand new to that she fell into this role and was learning on the job, as you said, she tells us self-deprecating story about

herself. she didn't know what a caucus was. yeah why are we did iowa. >> iowa to other things. >> we really didn't hear her voice for a long, long time. >> she was the rare communications person who didn't speak to the press, of course, donald trump did, but i think that what you're seeing here again, and this is even more than pecker. someone who the prosecution knows is presenting themselves to the jury as someone who is not hostile. to donald trump very much think it's, i think it's a problem. again, the jury can prove is all wrong here. but i think she's acting like a character witness and i don't think they're intending that to happen because there's two buckets of witnesses here. there's the dirty ones, the bottom feeders who are trying to come up with a deal so they can get really what seemed like chump change 130 k seems like not a big deal. and then you've got these clean witnesses who are she's a very attractive

female. she was very young, the kind of person that would be taken advantage of. and she's got this deep trusting relationship and all these opportunities. i think she accidentally serves as a character which takes says trump was quote, very involved in his campaign and weighed in on media responses i reported to mr. trump. hicks says of her role on the campaign. i hear what you're saying that so far she seems like a character witness, but they're just getting started let me give the other side of that. hope, hicks, it is clear does not harbor ill will towards respects and admires him. prosecutors know which he's going to say the jamie's point, she's already testified in the grand jury. they're not going to get surprised right now, so they think she has something useful to their case. and ellie of trump he knew what he wanted to say and how he wanted to say it and then she wants she's going on to say trump deserves the credit for the different messages that the campaign focused on in terms of the agenda that he put false. >> so again, an admirer of donald trump. and so if and when she says something that's helpful for the prosecution's case, it's going to hit extra hard in favor of the prosecution shouldn't because

you can't say this is a person who has a ghraieb or a beef with dominant, certainly that would apply to michael cohen and perhaps others. we've heard from. but so she could be really powerful witness for the prosecution. and again, they know they're not going to get surprised. they know what she's going to say. yeah it does seem like she's kind of bettering him up and he's a character witness, if you will? >> it also happens as somebody and we all did covered this real time she's also telling the truth. i mean, he was a wind one man band and we didn't know what he wanted to do and he was a marketing person and still is i mean, we see it every day. trump has turned his head at times toward hicks including when she said he deserved credit for the campaign messaging. there you go. so big picture. she was the rare person in the trump orbit who was well-liked by almost everybody inside the campaign. and with the media as well. even if she didn't know on the record on backward but hicks, as she checked with trump before making statements to the

press and traveled with him during the campaign. quote, almost every day, forgive me, jimmy. >> so i just wanted to point to why they're relationship went south after her january 6 testimony came out, why there was a chill. there is a text exchange that became public as a result of the january 6 hearings where hope is talking to, you billie radford, who's who worked with ivanka trump and hope says, in one day he ended every future opportunity that doesn't include speaking engagements at the local proud boys chapter, radford says, yep, hope goes on and says, and all of us that didn't have jobs lined up will be perpetually unemployed. i'm so mad and upset. we all look like domestic terrorists. now that when that comes out, that text exchanges public that speaks to why they haven't spoken since 2022, but he's still fond of

her absolutely. >> it is used that a chill i think is the best way to put it because he's still speaks very highly of her. this is not again, an adversarial witness. this is not a relationship that was completely ruined in any way. i think just going through what they went through on the campaign, they clearly it was the two of them for very long time. and i think they still hold a mutual respect for each other. yeah, absolutely. okay. as we continue to watch and listen to this very dramatic, very important testimony from hope hicks. the longtime trump aide, who went from the trump organization as she just described, to the trump campaign. and eventually to the white house prosecutors there's are using hicks as a tour guide to trump's universe, asking her about to keep players and his orbit, what they did and if they did anything without the direction of the boss, the former president, for watching cnn's special live coverage, don't go anywhere we're here to get your

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or visit coventry direct.com i'm katie bo lillis in washington and this cnn we were all just following his lead. that is blockbuster testimony that we are hearing in the manhattan hush money trial of donald trump is hope hicks. once one of his closest confidantes and most trusted aides is now on the stand

talking about oh, trump ran his business and his 2016 presidential campaign. this is cnn special, special live coverage on kaitlan collins here in new york. hope hicks just acknowledged that she did didn't know the tabloid king david pecker though, first witness that we heard from in this trial, she said that he and the former president, she would describe as quote friends. she also testified she was present at times for trump's phone calls with david pecker, and at one point said that they were incredibly close and trump praised reporting that came out in the national enquirer, seen as laura coates and paula reid are back here with me and paula. i think one thing that's really notable about this line of testimony that we've gotten from hope hicks, where she's been praising donald trump, saying what a good communicator he is with the media talking about how bare-bones the 2016 campaign was, but essentially saying donald trump was an incredibly hands-on manager, whether it's his business or his campaign. and it every time she issued a statement on the campaigns so half she checked with him first and of course,

it's prosecutors like this because in their case they're going to try to tie the fact that he is a hands-on manager to their accusation that michael cohen paid this hush money ahead of the 2016 campaign to help trump get elected. he knew this was happening, and then he was aware the documents were falsified when michael cohen was reimbursed. so this seeming like throwaway comments by a lot of people about how involved he was in his day-to-day business, either the trump organization or the trunk? i'm campaign will be significant for the prosecutors and it's notable that hope hicks is testifying because she was also on the phone with donald trump and michael cohen, laura, the day that they found out that stormy daniels wanted more money in exchange for her story as that campaign was getting at it's final days and choose describing the campaign, travel in the fall of 2016, saying they were together almost every single day, and that most days they would return to trump tower at the end of the day. why are they getting into the timing of it that it was for the purpose of

the campaign that they falsified business records. hope he's not having just followed is actually an update that she says that she became aware of the access hollywood tape on october 7 after receiving an email from washington post reporter seeking comment on it she also was in the office on the 14th floor of trump tower at that time. and so they're trying to solve isn't all of this was done, not for the purpose of trying to protect one's personal life, but for the purpose of knowing that it was going to impact the campaign in some way her being in these rooms, steering the conversation can talk about the motivation what would actually saying about it was it literally a conversation when you said i've heard about this, what about melania? and that's it, or was it what about the campaign? you remember david pecker testified he thought that it was about the campaign, that he never mentioned melania trump. you'd ever mentioned anything about his personal life. she can thread that needle for us also. >> if i remember correctly, and i think i do that they were in the middle of debate prep when this happened, when the story was breaking it about to come out. >> and because we've heard from others who were in the room who were describing the kind of

panicked moments as trump had a debate that sunday with hillary clinton and now she is being shown an email of the cobb, the reporter, a copy of the email that you receive from david fair and all the reporter who broke this story that landed like a car on top of the campaign. i mean, it was a remarkable mega 18-wheelers and better description because it was a remarkable moment the campaign where they were sent into real panic mode about what it meant for them. >> yeah absolutely. now, with the benefit of hindsight, if you read books by folks who were in the campaign and even his most loyal advisers, kellyanne conway and others say that this was the biggest test that they faced while working for then candidate trump. i mean, they all thought that this was it's basically game over for his campaign. i hicks is smiling as she recalled, she forwarded the email, one from the washington post to others on the campaign. but the reason we were very focused on this time period and have been with a lot of witnesses is because again, the access hollywood tape prosecutors would argue really changed the calculus within the trunk trump

campaign. and for that then candidate in terms of the urgency and the need to suppress stories about alleged affairs. now the subject line of this email from the washington post reporter was urgent. washington post query the email has now been accepted into evidence to now it's being shown to everyone in court, but this is a significant moment. it is though interesting to me that through all these witnesses, we still haven't really gotten past december 2016, which is of course, around the time we have a couple more months then when these documents for actually falsified the actual allegations at the core of this case. but prosecutors will argue that this time period really sets up the need and the pressure on candidate trump, on michael cohen to make the stormy daniel story go away. >> why? because they were so concerned about the election. >> and that's because you said you mentioned michael cohen here because the defense didn't want this to keep being redirected to michael cohen. michael cohen son urgency michael cohen was testifying or they were hearing about his testimony yesterday through can david zaki davidson about the idea that he was angry, he

wasn't going to go to the white house with them. then remember, think at the time eating up december if the defense wants to portray michael cohen as a sycophant who will do anything because apple, david fahrenthold also writing to hicks on october for seven, in an extremely urgent request for you today, are waiting to see what that request would have been, but suffice to say it likely is after the entirety of we know this is the actual washington and what but she'll be able to do for him was to get some sort of a kahn matt and she forwarded, of course, to the rest of the campaign. but the timing is so crucial. if you're, is it offense, you want to show that michael cohen had some other motivation? for making sure this was not going to get into the world. he wanted to benefit somehow from trump being an office, and he wanted to get an attaboy in the pat on the back if she can connect the dots of the prosecution that suggests this was a terrifying moment of the fallback is hollywood and to have one more claim be like that straw on the camel's back that would have been problematic. and again, that's where you have from your angles coming in saying, i've got this, i need to get paid for

it. so this is all going to be part of their master plan of summing it all up in the timing of but you're so right, paulette, we are almost one 11 days in and the jury is it's probably finally we now going okay. somebody who's right in the circle, who knows him really well, who has been in every room where it happened. finally, we're hearing from her and we also have dej dayana kessel here with us and former under former new york supreme court judge retired, former new york or new york supreme court judge. i should note and, judge, it's great to have you years. we are watching one of the most fascinating moments, probably this trial that has happened so far, given hope hicks and just her proximity and her closeness. and how much trump trusted are now testifying about the craziest days and is 2016 campaign. and when she was asked what her first reaction was to getting that email from a washington post reporter. she said, quote, i was concerned very concerned. i wonder what impact do you think this is having on that jury? there's told jurors who were sitting there. >> oh, good. good afternoon. i think this jury is on the edge of its seat right now hope

hicks seems to be a likable witness. she so far seems to have no particular ax to grind on, like michael cohen, we haven't heard anything about her posting negative tweets, or having any type of falling out with the former president so depending on how she's presenting this evidence i suspect the jury likes her. i suspect the jury is riveted and she will be an extraordinarily effective witness for the people, and it will be very interesting see how the defense handles her on cross-examinatio n. i mean, a woman who walks into a courtroom and says, i'm really nervous to be here. i don't know that they want to go after her very harshly. that could backfire that's a great question because one, it's which attorney of trump's will question her. >> we know it's three attorneys up there, two men, one woman, susan niclas todd,

blanche, and emil bove, who we sell questioning yesterday how do they cross-examine someone like hope pigs? because she had donald trump don't have a great relationship as of this moment, it chilled considerably after she he testified in another situation about january 6, and her textbook are revealed and, you know, what the defense is listening to right now is heard, talked about how she forwarded that email from the washington post, asking for comment on the access hollywood tape to several other senior people in the campaign. jason miller, david bossy, kellyanne conway, and steve bannon they're saying this isn't the upper periphery of the trump campaign house. the defense listening to all of this and preparing for what that cross-examination could look like. let me note really quickly before you answer, hicks wrote in all caps flagging, and in this email she said, one, need to hear the tape to be sure to deny deny, deny. obviously, we all heard the tape. not a lot of denial, room for denial. they're judge well, look, i think they

they're going to have to try and show that either her memory is faulty or that despite the fact that mr. trump was a hands-on guy when it came to campaigning, when it came to damage control, he left that up to others. >> i, ii, his senior staff, and in particular, michael cohen. now, whether again, that's going to fly with the jury is another question, but i think the fence. and look, these are experienced defense lawyers. they know this probably better than i do they they are going to have to be sure they treat her with kid gloves and go after not any motive for her not to be truthful, but perhaps you know, hey, will happen a long time ago. maybe she doesn't remember we're so well anymore and, judge, she just testified that denied denied, denied strategy was going to be a little more difficult. >> she says with a laugh. so she is coming across your she was very nervous when she first got off the stand. she seems to

be coming to coming into our own more. she is testify about what was happening and tagoe how difficult it was going to be, did not to deny something that was really undeniable. and she says the team was on another floor of the 20th fifth floor in a conference room. they were in the middle of debate prep for this. donald trump was 48 hours away from being face-to-face with hillary clinton. what about what hope hicks had to say that every time she put out a statement for the campaign, she checked with donald trump first and got his permission as she says now, she's recalling, see bannon, kellyanne conway, jared kushner, his son-in-law, and jason miller were all there with us others as they were doing that debate prep and kind of grappling with the fallout of this tape that was to be published soon in real time. >> well, again, i'd be clutching my stomach if i were one of the defense lawyers upon hearing that, but there are ways to there are certainly ways to overcome that. for example, perhaps they could overcome this by saying luck yes all these people were gathering together to try and

figure out, what do we do here? what do we? we do here? but because michael cohen was such a close gave such close counsel to the president, he perhaps on his own, decided to handle this whether that will fly. i don't know, but again, i try it, i suppose if i were them we'll see what they do. try, we'll see along the prosecution also goes with eric, judge castle. thank you for that. and dana, i mean, this was that pivotal moment in the campaign where people kinda describe the blood trading from everyone's face in the room as hope hicks came in, she motioned for them to come into the conference room so she could tell them that the washington post has an audio tape of this republican nominee for president bragging about sexually assaulting women. and just that moment in the campaign and never self. >> kaitlan, there are countless days in countless campaigns that we have covered. and that

is one that i will never, ever forget that moment that you're talking about as a reporter when we heard about it, thank you so much. and we're hearing now from the courtroom. picks says she shared the content, quote verbally with trump, saying she has a vague recollection of starting to read the transcript, and trump finish reading it himself. okay. that must have been a bit awkward as we continue to get updates from this really dramatic set. of questions and answers. hope hicks, quote, he said that didn't sound like something he would say hig testifies noting trump asked if he could see the actual tape. well, it wasn't anything he actually as you talk about this, can you please put yourself in the shoes of the prosecution and explain to our viewers wide this line of questioning about the access hollywood tape, right? >> so this is really powerful evidence for prosecutors so far they are showing the inside the trump campaign when this tape drops, a couple of weeks before the election the trump campaign

goes into full panic mode. hope hicks is right there in the middle. she's detailing it, says they were all quote absorbing the shock of it and they discussed trying to get a copy of the audio of the tape to assess the situation further. >> so like i said, full panic mode and here's why it matters legally. one of the things the prosecutor here's have to prove, it's not enough in itself, but they have to prove that the reason the business records were falsified is because they were worried about the campaign. they were worried about what these accusations by stormy daniels would do to the campaign. it has to be some substantial campaign related motivation. i personally think i've said on air several times, i think the evidence that this one was a campaign related move is quite powerful, quite overwhelming. i think switch this that the reason they paid off, stormy daniels good question. the reason they paid off stormy daniel's was in large part doesn't have to be 100%. but in large part motivated by, oh, my gosh, are a couple of weeks away from the campaign. we need to keep her quiet. this is more evidence of

that. >> and prosecutor peter asked hope x was mr. trump upset when he saw the tape yes. >> yeah. he was hicks said, jim, you are the only one of us who was an attorney for donald trump. >> can you shed light on that from your perspective? >> so sure, of course it's going to be upset. right? and i think that this is significant in that. again, full on panic mode, he seems to be very upset about it. you know, all the people around them you had remember chris christie was there working with them in debate prep. i think there was rumors there that chris christie recommended hey, you might want to step away from this thing so all of this is going on at one time. people or people are coming back. >> and jim, forgive me, trump asked to see the actual tape. hicks said she adds that she can't remember whether she saw the tape before the post published its story or not. >> yeah. look, this goes back. that's you know, you're talking back in 2016. so i think this is a pretty members winning bid incredibly credible

witness here, right. she's doing she's she's giving her account and look things were moving fast at that point in time. she's going to remember something. she's not gonna remember other things of her first reaction. i was a little stunned. >> trump leans over to blanche to say something as she testifies this your reaction to that? well, actually, forgive me. >> it's just yet another update from inside the courtroom. it's hard to describe, but it was definitely concerning i had a good sense. this was going to be a massive story, hicks says, you know, it's really interesting because i made the point earlier, trump's perspective is he's got this trial and he's got the election. but the jurors have a perspective to which is they are aware of the consequences of what they do, whether they acquit or whether or not they convict. and then they are also aware of the politics of this. and so it really illustrates how a political campaign unfolds on the eve of an election, bad

stuff is timed perfectly to come out to make the candidates scramble. and she said there was a consensus among the group, quote, the tape was damaging. this was a crisis. >> yeah, it sure was. >> this wasn't just a crisis this was a huge bombshell. we talk in politics in about october surprises. this was the ultimate october surprise. just to go back there was reporting that mike pence was considering leaving the ticket they did not know but they could survive this, that the whole thing wasn't wasn't going to unravel. i i just think that if you look at her testimony today, someone who likes donald trump has spoken well of him nothing hostile. and then here you go. this is the backdrop for stormy daniels two weeks later, and that's really key here as we look at and we think

about the first question i asked you, l-a, which is, why are we looking at this? but in the meantime, this is incredibly dramatic. hicks just now in that moment, she was not concerned about the impact this would have on female voters. but across her mind, a few hours later, or the next day, i do what to say, what something when she says she was stunned and donald trump leans over to his lawyers because obviously that's not something he wants to hear. he doesn't want to hear that she had some kind of negative reaction to the tape that's just because he views sure. so favorably. kristen hicks just said, quote, certainly eventually that was something that was raids, that meaning the impact on something. >> voters go ahead. >> he has had a number of conversations with senior advisers and his lawyers because a lot of people who he was close to, people he likes have testified against him and he has been briefed that they are just quote, unquote, telling the truth. >> this is how he has maintained some of his relationships with people that we know have testified against

him in the general 46 trials as well as various cases. >> that is because he has been told over and over again, they have to tell the truth and kristen, this is more of his testimony. >> he meeting trump didn't want to offend anyone anybody. i think he felt like it was pretty standard stuff for two guys chatting with each other. hicks says that trump was involved with a campaign response. he always liked to weigh in on responses. >> so i think one thing that's undisputed here is hope hicks is telling the truth, i don't think either sayyed is going to try to paint her as a liar. but he was trying to shade the truth. i think they're both going to try to focus on an extract the key points that help them. this is significant as well. the whole pick says that he, donald trump always like to weigh in on response again, right? tie him directly to what's going on to see. there's an update. >> hicks is shown a copy of the first statement that campaign put out on the tape. trump means forward to look at the monitor in front of him as it is displayed. so this is more of what you just said. yeah,

it's it's showing a pattern of donald trump being incredibly involved micro-managing even of things like that exactly. >> it's a direct link and one thing that's been not non-existent, but rare in this case is a direct link from donald trump to any of the conduct to be clear, again, not a crime. not a crime to be worried about the access hollywood tape but an important element that goes to one of the aspects of the crime, which is again that the payoff to stormy daniel's was motivated by concern for the campaign bottom line, donald trump calls the shots whether it's in his business, his children, big decision. >> they came to him. the campaign. she's laying out the same scenario, which is why sometimes we know as reporters covering the trump, particularly back then sometimes things take a little bit longer because when there's a crisis, his instinct is to do the right colon thing, which is denied, deny, deny, or whatever it is that doesn't necessarily fix a political

problem. and his political advisors are trying to get him to do something else. >> yeah. i mean, look at his chris and hicks reads the initial campaign statement for the jury was which is also displayed on the screen in the courtroom i mean, a perfect example of this is just what we saw when nikki haley dropped out of the race, right? the took forever for donald trump to put out a statement. >> and when he did, it was the opposite of what his campaign advisers had wanted him to do, which was to say something gracious or even some point not saying anything at all. but instead, it went onto attacker and that's just one example of how donald trump is calling the shots still even to this de, the statement reads quote, this was locker room banter, a private conversation that took place many years ago that was certainly my memory is that was part of the actual statement then went out. it continues, quote, bill clinton has said far worse to me on the golf course, not even close. i apologize if anyone was offended. did the bill clinton thing make it into the final statement? i don't remember isabel for me. i think it didn't. he obviously, they took that and they took it to another level when that debate finally happened. but could i

just note the word apologize? one of the rare time he said no, but he didn't say i'm sorry. >> i'm sorry and eventually he puts out the video. yeah. >> that he doesn't want to put out prosecutors are now playing said video that trump released that evening for hex. >> she says she was present and then trump appears engaged as this is happening, watching hicks on the screen and directly on the stand i want to bring in alyssa farah griffin, like hope hicks, alyssa served as white house communications director during the trump administration alyssa, i know you were for a lot of this on another show, but i also know that you have been updated on what we are seeing in this dramatic testimony from hope hicks, first big picture, what's your reaction to what we've heard so far? >> so a very interesting witness to call. listen. i've actually been skeptical that

hope hicks makes a lot of sense for the prosecution. and i say this because of this yes. >> hope is a consummate insider. she was very close to donald trump especially in this juncture of the first campaign but this is a woman who she's not partisan she's not ideological, but she is fiercely loyal to donald trump even after january 6, she never publicly broke with him though we now know they haven't communicated in some time, and i think that what you can expect and what we've seen so far is she's, she's very direct, and calculated and how she's answering. i'm sorry, she's doing i'm going to have to do this a few times because i want, you and our viewers to see what's happening because she is on the stand as we speak. she was asked about the media coverage of media coverage, of course, about the access hollywood tape hicks bites her lip, quote, it was intense. and then hicks says it knocked news out excuse me, knock news of a category four hurricane out of the news cycle. it was all trump all the

time for the next 36 hour, she recalled. go ahead, alyssa yeah. >> and i was just just to say that i don't expect that she's going to say anything damaging to trump beyond what she is legally obligated to answer. >> and i think we've seen this. >> she's kinda recalling memories, the tone of the campaign, the worries and anxieties they had there. but she's on two occasions said didn't recall specific meetings. i don't know that we can expect this to be a blockbuster testimony about what we can expect is she's setting the tone of what the mood was like, how worried the campaign was about some of these allegations like access hollywood. and of course, this would have been yet another, and she did paint a picture that donald trump is hands-on with preska i can confirm that he did not like statement's going out that weren't run by him first. he was very much somebody who is tuned into the news. he was console of watching tv. he's a go ahead. >> yeah. no, i'm sorry. i just want to i want to ask you a follow-up to that question before i do an update from

inside the courtroom, trump is leaning back now with his eyes closed and now hicks, as two released statements criticize, critic criticizing raises paul. ryan. and mitt romney trump bobbed his head when she said their names. that is maybe the least surprising thing that's happened so far in this courtroom today. >> but alyssa, on the whole question of his involvement yes, it is. >> i don't think anybody would disagree with you that given her long relationship, despite the fact that they had semi falling out after january 6, that she's not going to throw him under the bus intentionally but if the prosecution's intent is to establish donald trump as somebody who was very involved as you just said in order to make that connection between what trump did with michael cohen to try to make their case that he broke the law with regard to his records, could she be helpful

unintentionally on that? >> yes. >> i think that the biggest value she can add for the prosecution is explaining what she had. and i think we'll hear more of it of how hands-on he was with anything any statement that went out about him, anything that was publicly stayed, especially in response to a scandal i mean, an analogy i can give of my time with him during the george floyd protests, he put out this infamous and horrific statement when the looting starts, the shooting starts, and i spent hours trying to get him to allow me to personally walk that back or to do it in his own words, and he is somebody who is so direct. he so hands-on. he will not let something go out under his name without a hands-on approach. i think she could offer us some insight on that with regard to this specific civic scandal. >> oh, that's really interesting we're waiting for another update from inside there, but just talk more broadly about whole pecs. and i mentioned, i mean, you know, famously quit the white house

after some, a little bit of time after the the election. in, 2020 and you never look back. she is somebody who has been pretty loyal. the only thing that has upset donald trump were some text messages. what she thought were private alyssa hicks is looking at prosecutor colangelo's and the jury while answering questions. she does not appear to have looked at trump so far during her testimony so bounce off of that, if you will, listen and also talk about their relationship and where she is right now, forgive me before you do that, prosecutors put mitch mcconnell's statement after the access hollywood tape on the screen for hicks and the lawyers, trump leans in to look at the statement briefly. >> go ahead, alyssa listen, this has gotta be hard for hope. hope was always somebody she's very shrewd. she's thoughtful, she's calculated and how she operates, but she deliberately always wanted to be behind the scenes. she's not somebody who wanted to be in

front of a camera. she's not somebody who as i said, publicly broke with trump and she's led a largely private life since leaving the admin striation, and she was fiercely loyal to him. her career, she did not come up in politics. she came up in pr in new york working with ivanka trump and then was brought onto the campaign and in many ways, she was seen as like an extension of the trump family. she was close with the kids. she was deeply close to donald trump for his entire term in office, and she's won. she and i are one of a handful of staffers who did multiple stints in the trump white house. she was first his comms director, left for a job at fox and then came back as councilor in this very senior of advising role and hope was someone that in the west wing, if you needed to get through to trump and you are struggling to, you would go to because she did she knew him, he trusted her i think this is uncomfortable for both of them. he really lee hope is one of the few people he holds an incredibly high esteem and i think to see her on the stand in front of him is probably very challenging and hard for him to see. and this reminder because he wanted her to come

back and she she basically had to convince her to come back to the white house that she's no longer with him publicly? yeah. and as you were talking that prosecutors are showing hicks mitt romney statement trump slightly shook his head and didn't look towards it. and as we speak attorneys have approached the judge's bench after an objection, so they're sort of haggling over what can and cannot be admitted into, evidence. there. and as part of the questioning, of course, of hope, hicks. thank you so much, alyssa, for coming on and giving us that's really valuable insight into to this relationship and into the broader inner workings of trump world. see you soon. thanks thank you. >> dana kaitlan, i'm going to toss it back to you and our colleagues in new york yeah, dana and right now hope hicks is walking through the republican fallout after that access hollywood tape came out talking about high-profile republicans paul ryan mitt, romney, mitch mcconnell, all

putting out statements condemning trump for his words on that access hollywood tape. trump is visibly reacting as this is happening inside the courtroom, shaking are bobbing his head as hope hicks is bringing up these figures. of course, these are people paula and laura that did not have deep respect inside the trump campaign. they felt like anytime he did something that these republicans it would speak out and would criticize him. this was different though. this was a pivotal moment where there was a real change and republicans who thought there was no way while trump could win the election and so if people worked for him, we're weighing should i just quit now because i don't think this is actually going to go anywhere. but what's the point as trump is talking to? to one of his other attorney, susan niclas. what is the point of bringing up the republicans response to the access hollywood tape? >> he was losing everything in terms of his chance of winning the white house. i mean, even republicans were sort of holding nose and maybe supporting him. even they were ready to jump ship after what they heard on the access hollywood tape. >> so it all speaks to the

enormous impact that had on the campaign, that pressure he was under to change the narrative specifically when it comes to his behavior towards women and why again, he and michael cohen would have been incentivized to pay stormy daniels hush money in the days leading up to the election because this comes out the word about this fall out and they're thinking, what else is out there? >> thinking we can't handle one? more thing, the word cheese was crisis, that it wasn't something that they bumped a hurricane. she just talked to back. it was 24/7 on this various way. we were all remember a house mitigate. this was my pens possible not wanting to be his running mate any longer. and of course, why did he want mike pence? because he wanted the evangelical vote. he wanted women, he wanted suburban women. you wanted to build all of that as part of that and so the idea here that this would have been one more than i keep using this reference of the straw that breaks the camel's back. the update we have right now is trump is actually riding on a notepad while beauvais and blanche or the band she showed it to both a and then returned defensive. he has a say he wants to know what's going on. he wants have an input. >> he's become a more animated. yes, it's has been

on the stand. that's what i sent us from our reporters and hicks is now saying that she reached out to michael cohen to run down a river. she heard about another tape. >> she testifies, quote, that would be problematic for them the campaign. now that line again, we have to go back to why the motivation here is so important. it's not just that there were claims that he falsified business record, but it's the idea of why was this the reason that there was a departure from the ordinary catch and kill? why did you want to make sure this did not get out? because the timing now he is suggesting that it's about it's about back that he's a family man, did not want this to impact his life in home. his personal life. but they're saying the prosecution know this is about the campaign you did get this because of the campaign. and if it was done for you for the campaign, that's a contribution to your campaign. it's not like just the carte blanche to do something else. it's a campaign contribution, i e, the underlying crime here. so she's kicking these dots for him. but again, this is somebody who obviously is a reluctant witness. she does not want to be here through

testimony. she said, by the way there was no such tape about the second one she's referencing, but he chased that down for me, so she's bringing in michael cohen. and again, what he's doing as the fixer at the end of the day. this is a very significant witness. she hasn't spoken to him in two years. he's not paying for her attorney. she's there because of a subpoena. she's talking about the connecting the dots and how intricate, intricately aware he was in all of his involvement love isn't it all this is doing, this is not sunburn to juries and say, well, oh, i guess there was $130,000 being paid out that he knew nothing about what i'm waiting to hear from her though, is what came after the campaign. what after he won why was there the concerns still to pay and cover up or falsifying a record that's the key we're watching me trump is reacting in real time as hope hicks is up there. i don't think it's totally surprising. it's the closest person that he is two that is testified so far out of david pecker keith davidson, who barely knew, and hope hicks

and trump is more frequently engaging with his attorneys. he's paying very close attention and watching the screens and even looking over we're in hope picks as she's testifying, and i should note there now, talking about the debate that was right after the access hollywood tape came out, debated by anderson cooper, who was i can note so the courtroom right now and abc's martha raddatz, clearly the most reliable narrator we've heard from so far, because of course, david pecker or a tabloid king, who is clearly really admire trump and was a little sycophantic himself then of course we heard from some other against summary witnesses, people who moved in testimony. it also heard from trump's a long time, the 35 years secretary rhona graff, she clearly i built her entire career on her relationship with him. then we heard from keith davidson, who clearly i'd memory issues defenses making him out to be a queer extortionists. hearing from hope hicks, hearing her narrate this story is going to be incredibly important for the jury, not hicks saying right now that the access hollywood with tape was raised during the debate as one of the first

questions, not surprising hanging over everything exactly how, how could it not have bad but the pressure the campaign trump had kind of had people spread this rumor that he was going to drop out of the race when this happened. and instead, he brought the bill clinton accusers, right? >> debate. i mean, this is that moment where should we start? >> talking about his instincts as a communicator, they kicked in because he clearly was also in damaged mode here when it goes back to the campaign, we ask you because around the same time, i think people have compression when you hear names like michael cohen or kellyanne conway, or jason miller, which has been referenced in the courtroom today by various things. you automatically think about partisans. where do you think about people who have a vested political interests? you have an aptitude, of course, that she's confirming that there were reports regarding trump's behavior with women after debates. adding onto the perception in his minor, they pile about his it's rapport with women, which brings that rhona and said that he's very sweet, two women, very professional, et cetera. >> but i wonder if any of your experience kaitlan thinking about this, it should people be thinking about hope? >> picks as a partisan in this

circle or as somebody who was clearly the communicator, because if she's the ladder that up her objectivity for a jury, it's a great question and it's definitely the latter. she's not an ideolog. she's not someone who is very maga, you know, i mean, she's certainly did trump's bidding and was super loyal to him it's notable, you bro jason miller he's actually in the courtroom today. he was one of the senior campaign aides in 2016, and prosecutors are now playing video again from trump's october 2016 rally, north carolina, where he's denying your important because as you were just reading that update, there were other women that's reports of other women and stories that started coming forward because the access hollywood tape kinda want it. version two public view broke the dam where than other negative stories were true or not. we're coming to the surface. >> yeah, including stormy daniels and keith davidson resurface singh with her story and remember, we're still here exactly. >> and i believe prosecutors are going to get to a call that she was allegedly on where cohen trump and hope hicks, i think because it's listening, talk about the fact that

daniels is shopping her story and that's going to be a critical part of it. asked if trump was concerned these reports could hurt his standing with voters for hicks replies, yes. and judge kessel is also back with us and judge, as you're listening to this pivotal testimony from from hope hicks will see the impact that it has, but it's just william moment to see someone as we were saying, is not someone who is a partisan, but someone who could be a more reliable narrator for these jurors as they're listening to this? i mean, he picks is making very clear. i haven't heard her once testified that trump was acting out a concern about his family, but that he was acting out of concern for her how this could hurt him with voters? >> well, from what i can see, this appears to be clear testimony that is concerned about his election his election prospects one thing that i also think is very interesting no matter how fiercely boil she is, i haven't seen one

indication that she has said things like, oh, i can't remember. i don't recall. there's no vague recollection here. i've i've seen plenty of witnesses who want to protect someone and this woman is not does not sound like one of them she's making very clear that donald trump, i mean, she was the communications director in the white house, press secretary on the campaign he was also his own communicator. >> she talks about how important twitter was to hand that he signed off on every statement before she issued it. she says that during the campaign, trump posted all of his own tweets or a staffer would only post things that he had personally approved. obviously, a lot of these were denials of what we were hearing from the other women. and the story because it came forward after the access hollywood tape was published. >> well, she's clearly linking him very closely to this there's absolutely no doubt about that and the other thing is according to persons in the

court mr. trump is more animated today. the nice been in the past with her testimony. trust me, jurors are looking at that and one of the things that jurors can do is they can use their observations and court when they're considering the evidence. so they may be inferring that he's concerned about this testimony to that's a great point. >> so you believe that that jurors are interpreting interpreting how trump is responding, where typically he has been leaned back in his chair. he's had his eyes closed for sustained periods of time. and the fact that he's animated, that he's speaking with his attorneys, passing nodes, paying close attention, sitting up, you think that that resonates with jurors? >> i have said this before. jurors do not miss a beat. they look at the defendant, they look at the reactions to testimony on the stand. they

look at the judge to see whether the judge's reacting at all. that's why you've got to do your poker face when you when you're sitting on that bench they are paying close attention. trust me judge castle, we all are paying close attention. >> i think, especially as hope hicks is now on the witness stand, judge, causal thank you for that. in an update from inside the courtroom or reporters who were there, the prosecution is now showing tweets, those posts that we were talking about earlier, trump's denials, many of them there and i'll show him in them to the jurors, including his attacks on the late senator john mccain, him denying allegations that were being made by women and paula reid and law codes. >> i mean, what this as they're getting at this line of questioning with hope hicks here she is someone who knows donald trump better than any other witness who has gotten on the stand. and now she's walking through and they're having her read the tweets of his denials. >> what is the significance of that? well, remember, there is the credit character. it is the

judgment point out for their acid asking her essentially the drug consultant to be a kind of a character witness because that's part of the full fall out here is not just to show whether he is respectful to women or not the point actually is not even even whether he indeed committed the axes alleged to have been accused of in terms of a sexual affair. otherwise, the point is whether an hicks said that he said she first by the way, hertz heard of karen mcdougal on november either number 42016, when contacted by the wall street journal. so again, these names, this is also helping the credibility the other witnesses who are putting this timeline together for this jury, but he is concerned about the fallout among voters. and in particular women as well. this was a, dylan is a very although not monolithic population of voters are trying to not alienate and antagonized. and so they're concerned about why and what this would have done in that circumstance. she's talking about all these different aspects. i've been, but now her knowledge of karen mcdougal, her knowledge destroyed me for me, i'm daniel's what does she know about them? and did she go back to talk to donald? on trump

about maybe at whether it was true or not, what were those conversations like me, she's not an attorney. he's would not have been privileged communications. he wasn't the president. i wouldn't even the executive privilege conversation, you could have alerted to what he said in response to wherever she asked him about surely must come up. >> also she first heard of karen mcdougal on november 4, 2016, david pecker testified last week that he was on the phone with hope hicks when she was a taxpayer funded white house official, along with the white house press secretary hey, sarah sanders about whether to extend their agreement with karen mcdougal. i mean, this is definitely not the last time she was going to hear of karen mcdougal. and i should note hips hooks is saying that she heard heard of other part of stormy daniels one other time before daniel's was mentioned in that november 4th wall street journal story, dana. >> hey, lynn, thank you. so we saw over the past hour or so the prosecution laying the basis for the hicks testimony

in and around access hollywood and two things, la one is that donald trump was very involved micro-managing even and two, that the focus was on the campaign. that was where their focus is and now they're turning that with that sort of building block. >> they're turning to questioning to karen mcdougal and now stormy daniel's. >> so up until now in the trial, we've only heard about the panic in the campaign from outsiders, from people at ami, david pecker from the lawyers for the lawyer keith davidson, who represented stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, and they're all sort of drawing inferences are saying it seemed like there was concern. i believe there was concern. now, the jury is hearing it from the ultimate insider, and she's walking them through chapter and verse of just how concerned donald trump personally was directly, just how concerned the campaign he was. and that sets the stage for answering the question, why, why did they pay off stormy daniel's? of course, the prosecution's argument is because they're worried about the campaign let me anticipate something that's going to happen on cross exam whenever that begins the lawyers for

trump are going to go back and say donald trump is married. donald trump was a good father, a good husband. he cared about himself. he cared about his family. that's not going to undo the political motive as long as there is some substantial political motive that's enough, but watch for that on the cross. >> hicks now is saying daniel's came up when security guys were discussing a celebrity golf of tournament on trump's plan in 2015, hicks got the email about the wall street journal story on trump's plane as they were landing. and ohio for a rally, jaime so to me, this is we have to see where it goes, but we have not known how much hope hicks knew about stormy daniels, except for a reference from the michael cohen case where court documents have an fbi agent saying that apparently she didn't know until november this seems to me getting to the point of her knowledge of stormy daniels

yeah, absolutely. i mean, that's that's what they're trying to show here, that it's trying to show when she knew things. you how she was reacting, how the campaigns reacting and then how involved donald trump was. and remember this is all about communication i think it's important to note that what they're talking about is donald trump was very involved and communication, anything that when external write there are a lot of things that managers get involved in hands-on. some are more important than others. they still have to show that he got involved in the payment in a significant way. >> the email is being displayed for the jury and just to sort of underscore what the jury is looking at right now is an email that hicks said that she got from the wall street journal about the stormy daniel's situation. >> this is making me think about the work that i do when i'm working with lawyers and i think one of the judges was a commentator, and i always tell lawyers you really need a timeline if you don't have a timeline, the jurors will make their own timeline and they will they'll ask the judge for

a marker in a pad of paper and so the jury is going to bring it back to this case. >> and what this case is asking them to decide. and that it raises all of these questions, which is when, when does cohen? pay these women? and then when does do, does the repay occur? and the timing of the events is critically important to putting all the pieces together and figuring out what trump's intent was. and now, again, i'm just, you know, i worked with the defense or i work with the other side. and if i were trying i'm defense, i would think i would say this guy doesn't care about anything he he does he does not care about bad press he doesn't care about saying the wrong thing and he's just that doesn't motivate him and la the email laid out the story about am i buying mcdougal's story of an affair? >> yeah, trump. so carolyn's exactly right. the timeline really matters here. the jury doesn't yet have the complete time on your right, but let's make sure our viewers do. so. the karen mcdougal story starts

percolating around september 2 months or so i went to october before the election. it gets paid for and now the the press starts learning about this. then the stormy daniels case bubbles to the surface michael cohen pays stormy daniels $130,000. i think it's october 27th, within a week or so of the election then starting after the election is when donald trump and his organization reimburses michael cohen for those payments. >> and i said before, stormy daniel, this even stormy daniels just email is about mcdougal. yes. i just want to correct on that the wall street journal reporter asked if trump had an affair with mcdougal and whether he or anyone close to him was aware of or involved in the contract between mcdougal and ami kristen oh, let me just click continue from inside the courtroom. >> hicks says she believes she mentioned the email to trump before his rally because she was worried she wouldn't have enough time time to respond. >> otherwise. well, interesting because obviously she knew she

had to run this exact trump before he went on stage because he would have to have the final say in this, which again goes to the point that they're trying to make here, which was that he was in charge of anything that goes out again still is to this day, watching every single thing that gets put forward but i do think that it's interesting. >> jim has continued to say, which is waiting for that moment where everything comes together and maybe it's not with hope perhaps because maybe it's with michael cohen. but right now, it does appear that some of this stuff seems to be running parallel and hasn't quite had an intersection yet. and they clearly, i mean, it's obvious to everyone i think what they're trying to say here and why they're on this line of questioning. but again, i don't think we've gotten to the intersection point. >> it's a little confusing on the timeline. i'm i'm checking our internal feed here. it appears at times that there asking her both about karen mcdougal and about stormy daniels, there's a mentioned that which is different from what we know from the michael

cohen case that she had heard some mention of stormy daniels before, but these tour are sort of getting melded together a little bit here. one other point about there are other people in the room and in the campaign at this hi, i'm kellyanne conway was the campaign and his son-in-law hicks and unlock sent the email, forgive me to jared kushner because of his role on the campaign and because of his relationship with rupert murdoch, hoping to quote by a little extra time, rupert murdoch being the owner of the wall structure, wall street journal so we don't know all of the witnesses yet. there may be other people from the campaign, people in the room who get called hicks says she called cohen. >> here we go, because she knew he had a relationship with david pecker she also called pecker's office yeah, they're trying to figure out what went wrong here. they're trying to do damage control and connecting it to michael cohen and connect, right? exactly. bringing michael cohen. and

because all that hope hicks, i said up to now is he was sort of this mysterious guy, didn't know what he did. he was always around now she's bringing him directly into the response to these stories. i would hazard a guess that prosecutors have cross-check this with michael cohen's testimony to make sure they're not in conflict with when again, just to state the obvious she was officially on the campaign. yes. michael cohen was officially not on the campaign. >> right. and if you go back to the whole charge or the series of charges against donald trump, the crux of it is that this was an illegal well, first of all, that it was changing the records, but also about an illegal campaign contribution as hicks is testimony gets into the mcdougal questions. trump is sitting back in his chair with his eyes closed. jim. >> so back to the to the jared kushner. so jen schorn wasn't on the campaign neither. another outside adviser to the campaign. so they're trying to establish, okay? but there's she's having contact. she's reaching out to anyone. she can

get. i'm sorry, i try to do jared kushner i mean, he wasn't getting a paycheck. >> was very much i get it. he was involved in the campaign as an adviser. that's right side. got it. but he was not paid staff on the campaign. he was not part of the campaign. as far as the epc was concerned. he's not part of the campaign. okay. right. i hear when he wasn't so go ahead and that's important jim hicks of her call with pecker. i asked what was going on. why was i receiving this email? continue so getting back to the point that they're trying to show that, damage control, reaching out to anybody and everybody who had relationships with the press he explained that karen mcdougal was paid for magazine covers and fitness columns and that it was all very legitimate and that was for the that was what the contract was for of course, pecker testified earlier that really the purpose was to keep her quiet and they weren't actually hiring her the fitness column has been a magazine cover that was the cover story, but here he is giving the cover story to hope hicks, who will

again, was part of the campaign, right? was central to the campaign. it says hicks said she had never had any discussions with pecker before that date about mcdougal. they're learning about mcdougal as it breaks i just keep going back to davidson's testimony and so far, it's a lot of hearsay testimony again, that's where's the beef when it is trump going to testify probably not. he'd be smart, not two michael cohen is the one who's got to be the proxy. he's got to be the proxy and davidson said, and this just stuck in my head. i who knows what's going to stick in the jurors will find out but what stuck in my head was cohen's frustration i can't get my guys in five states. i'll just do it myself. i think that's a break in the gene. i think it's a real problem. i'll just do it myself. >> problem for the prosecution. yes, i really do because then if he if cohen just doesn't myself, he's got to be trump's proxy. there has to be some proofs. >> hicks said she never had any discussions with pecker before

the date that date about mcdougal hicks says she thinks she called cohen before pecker and he prompted her to call pecker for more our information so i do want to note here because we had questions about that august 2015 meeting, michael sort of faint. >> michael cohen sort of feigned like he didn't know what feigned, rather like. he didn't know what i was talking about. >> so just to go back, remember we didn't know how my topics knew and how much she was involved in all this. and remember, there's a big question about that. august 15, 2015 meeting with david pecker, hicks says she sent draft responses to cohen again, just to connect what we're seeing and hearing right now on the stand with what the prosecution is trying to do, what they're trying to convince convict donald trump of on another case, trying to establish the fact that cohen equals the campaign equals donald trump. >> and that was an intent here. the jury is seeing four draft

responses. she sent cohen to review michael cohen status as part of the campaign or not is important because it prosecutors are saying, you know, even though he wasn't listed as a campaign employee, what he did was very much campaign focused. >> trump's defense has tried to make the argument that no, he was some outside guy. i think any common sense? and you all would know there's any common sense understanding of the situation. was that michael cohen, jared kushner, maybe not on the campaign payroll, but very much it's very blurred. >> and once again, the communications director for the campaign is sending michael cohen draft responses. >> but i think it's also important that michael cohen says i don't know what you're talking about. call pecker. he just what's going on, right? that's important because and then pecker gives the answer that he gave. so as far as the campaign knew pecker's response was accurate, at least to this point and the testimony by the way, michael cohen not being fully honest, once again, from one of the prosecutor's witness, i don't know what he knows what he's the one who did the deal. >> all right. guys. wow.

>> what a morning. this is really, really fascinating right now, as we've been discussing hope hicks is on the stand. she is testifying to her communications with michael cohen and stories about alleged trump sexual encounters broke into public view we're going to have so much more cnn's special coverage. >> please don't go anywhere sanity needs to save space you have a show were right and left talk to each other cnn presents an encore presentation of hbo's real time with bill maher tomorrow at eight on cnn generalized myasthenia gravis made my life a lot harder. but the picture started changing when i started on viv cart if guard is for adults with generalized myasthenia gravis who are anti chr antibody

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