house, a security person carrying them over, then being brought in in a manila envelope. the president signs it, sends it back. so maybe some of these people right, to talk about the logistics of the records. but i think you save one or two for after so that you can kinda close full circle your case and establish this guy knew what was happening. it was done at the behest of him. records were false, they were fraudulent. >> there was the nexus between the fraud and they are concealment. >> the conspiracy in the cover up have a nice day. guilty. that's a prosecution media person is coming back. we've been told the person from the da's office who put in all of the posts, i guess she's coming back. >> there's always a trade one person we know that is not going to be testifying. karen mcdougal, which i think surprised a lot of people that she was on the witnesses, but they decided we don't need to put her on. >> jennifer rodgers, joey jackson great to see you. thank you so much. >> and thank you for joining us. this is cnn news central, cnn special coverage of the donald trump hush money trial continues right now right now.

>> you are getting a live look at 100 centre street. we are covering and on the air minutes after learning breaking news, setting the stage for the ultimate confrontation in donald trump's historic criminal trial a person familiar with the case so the prosecution intends to call michael cohen to the stand on monday cohen, of course, is the former trump attorney and personal fixer, whose actions or at the very the heart of this case. >> moments ago, the former president of the united states walked past cameras and into that courtroom for the 15th day of his trial. back on the stand and moments is a very important witness, one who seemed to help both sides yesterday. >> a trump white house insider who functioned as a courier for

the checks at the center of this his case? i'm kaitlan collins and new york and you are watching cnn's special live coverage of donald trump's hush money trial and i'm jim acosta and washington circle monday on your calendars, that's now when we expect michael cohen to go under oath and tell the whole truth about his role in silencing stormy daniels in those cohen is the nucleus of the case and whether a jury believes what he asked to say may go a long way in determining if they convict or acquit him. >> that is donald trump of 30 four criminal counts and minutes. testimony picks up where it left off yesterday with madeleine westerhout, the former trump oval office operations director westerhout is not exactly a health let's hold name and she witnessed how donald trump had his hand in every aspect of his business, even from the white house westerhout gave emotional testimony breaking down at points on the stand. she also claimed she saw trump showering affection and even doting on his wife. she says, first lady melania, shining a different light on the defendant, who has

spent much of this trial sneering as witnesses, tell their stories. court ended thursday with another trump legal loss. the judge denying emotion to declare a mistrial, brushing aside, the defense has claimed that stormy daniels testimony prejudice the jury against the former president, cnn's covering every angle of this historic trial inside and outside of the courtroom. but let's go back to new york work and kaitlan collins, caitlyn yeah, jim, we are standing by waiting for the jury. and of course, the witness to get back on the stand inside that courtroom today. yes, we are expecting this to start any moment now, i've got cnn's kristen holmes and paula reid here with me in lower manhattan. outside of that courthouses, we wait for this to start. the judge greeting mr. trump as he does every morning saying good morning, mr. trump. a notable ending because are beginning because the yesterday how court ended did not go so well for the trump team as the judge was basically reprimanding them for how they'd been handling their defensive this case. but apollo, on this news that michael cohen, we now know he is going to take the stand on

monday. i mean, he is the last big blockbuster witness. and if we thought trump was angry watching stormy daniels testify, it's hard to even imagine what it's going to be feel like when michael cohen takes the stay on. >> yeah. cohen is not just a witness in this case. he is now the witness in this case because up until now, prosecutors have not established a direct link between these falsified business records and the defendant, michael cohen, can provide that but he is complicated and this is where the defense is focusing almost all of their energy. i get a lot of questions about why todd blanche, the lead attorney, isn't doing more of the cross-examinations. that's because he is solely focused on michael cohen because this case, will succeed or fail on whether the jury believes good cohen. and of course, he's gonna get up on the stand under direct examination. he's going to explain this alleged conspiracy where he spoke with trump and they agreed to this arrangement where he would be repaid this hush money and they would try to hide it. >> now on cross though, they're going to bring up not only his previous convictions for

multiple offenses, including campaign finance violations related to this and leyen to congress, but also his out-of-court behavior has relentless attacks, not only on trump, but on the defense team. >> i mean, four years on his podcast in his books with every public appearance, he has shown animus towards the defendant and they are really going to capitalize on that. so this is this will make or break the case. yeah. >> i mean, he was even speaking the other day about his testimony and i should note todd blanche is sitting with trump whispering to him as their the defense table with the other witness about to take the stand in. kristen homes. >> what have you heard about how they're bracing for michael cohen to be on the stand and how trump's going to respond to that. i think right now it's mostly prep on how to attack michael cohen. >> how can they find twitter posts, as you said, obviously painting him as a liar, going through his past convictions, but it's also really making sure that they're right-wing social media. army is in place to go after michael cohen because donald trump is under a

gag order, but his biggest supporters aren't. they have millions of followers social media and a lot of this is being played out in the court of public opinion. remember at the end of the day, they're really do not believe and that's trump steam. this is going to be an acquittal. their best hope scenario right now is a jury and that's what they're really hoping for that they can actually get through to one juror. now, this being played out in a court of public opinion means the donald trump, whatever happens is going to paint this as purely political, particularly if he is convicted and that is what we're hearing from these legal experts and friends of donald trump's who are on the airwaves every single night talking about how this sham trial that this is all done to embarrass the former president. this is a setup for that as well. you're going to see these blatant attacks on michael cohen as part of that, trump's things now care about the public perception as much as what the actual verdict is you're and elie honig, madeleine westerhout may not be a household name, but she is setting the stage for michael cohen to take the stand. >> and because she was trump's eyes and ears outside of the oval office in what she testified about yesterday

afternoon when i was inside that courtroom is about a meeting. would michael cohen at the white house and of course that is the meeting he testified to. congress was where he talked about getting reimbursed and where has checks were with the president of the united states? >> yeah, exactly. kaitlan as we look forward to michael cohen's really make or break testimony on monday, what the prosecution is going to do today is try to set building blocks in place to support michael cohen. as you said, when we resume court, madeleine westerhout we'll be on the stand now. she was a special assistant to donald trump. she sat right outside the oval office and she had a lot of insider access. one of the things she has testified about is the all check she testified that from time to time during the early years of the trump presidency, stacks of checks would arrive. she would bring them in and then they would be returned to her sayyed. now but one thing she said about the checks that's important. she said, i believe there were invoices attached to some of the checks sometimes now she didn't remember any specific check, but that piece of testimony tells you that donald trump had information about what the checks were four and

if we combine the testimony of madeleine westerhout with another witness, we heard yesterday, rebecca manochio who works for the trump org. they gave us the whole flow of how these checks move. they started at trump tower in new york, were sent down to dc where madeleine westerhout would have them sign and she would then route them back up to trump tower in new york. another important piece of westerhout's testimony, she talked about the access hollywood tape and she said that when that tape dropped about a month before the election, she said at the time i recall, it rattled the rnc leadership. she did add though that in her view, donald trump was actually less worried about it than other people around her. and then to the all-important meeting kaitlan reference this circle, this date, folks, if you're following along at home, the february 5, 27 contain meeting at the white house is going to be crucial. michael cohen is going to testify about this. this is the meeting where he is going to say he discussed this whole arrangement to payback stormy daniels directly with donald trump, madeleine westerhout set the foundation for this. they showed her an

email. she said yes, the meeting happens. she doesn't know what was said, but she said yes the meeting happened one of the thing yesterday we heard from a witness from harper collins of publishing company and the prosecutors read to the jury an excerpt from one of trump's books, where he talks about how i go out of my way for the people who are loyal to me and bad times, this woman, not anyone who has anything to do with the case, but this woman was very disloyal. and now i go out of my way to make her life it looks like the prosecution is trying to explain to the jury the way donald trump treats people like michael cohen and stormy daniels, who he views as disloyal to other big developments just from the end of the day yesterday, the prosecution announced they will not be calling karen mcdougal. i think that's probably the right tactical call. they don't need to go back in time. here we are on the brink of mine michael cohen and donald trump's team asked to allow donald trump under the gag order to make comments about stormy daniels. now that are testimonies over the judge said, no can do i don't trust you to do that. and so that motion was denied kaitlan. so we'll throw it back to you at the courthouse. you can tell

what's happening on a rolling basis. >> yeah. the judge said that trump's track record as well known and that's why he wasn't amending that gag order. elie, thank you for catching us up to speed. there's a lot of moving parts here right now. madeleine westerhout is back on the stand, were told that she smiled and the direction of the defense table, she did that several times yesterday. she was testifying. she is definitely not a hostile witness to donald trump. she's someone who views and variably wrote about him favorably right now, the jury is coming into the courtroom and two, we'll see what the jury thinks of her testimony, polo, because yesterday, she didn't make some have some testimony that seemed like it could benefit both the prosecution and the defense, one with the defense, obviously, she was saying really positive things about donald trump's relationship with melodic trump in light of the access hollywood tape but she was also testifying about how closely trump paid attention to his money. the fedex and voices that she handled with where the checks coming to the white house that he signed from michael cohen and also about michael cohen himself being i'd else yeah. >> and those are going to be two really significant issues

horses and necklace, the defense attorney to focus on during cross, because these are issues that actually speak to the charges, of falsifying business records. i remember you have jeff mcconney testifying that yes. trump was very detail-oriented about everything that happened in the trump organization until 27 team. so prosecutors have to contend with the fact that defense attorneys will say yes, he was evolved everything down to the paperclips until we went to the white house, who was the leader of the free world. and then other defense they're going to argue that they were trying to put a wall between the trump organization and the white house because there were so much outrage about whether he going to profit from being inside the white house? her testimony right there. that can be something that prosecutors can seize on and say yes, but she was closed at him. the geoff mcconney was in 2017 and she says he was still detail oriented so paying attention to the invoices. that's really critical for prosecutors. in addition to of course, confirming michael cohen's testimony about being there, because pretty much everything michael cohen says is going to happen have to be verified with someone else or something else. yeah. >> and she had a desk that's right up against the oval

office. >> me chooses close to trump, as you could get, jim acosta yes. >> you sure was. i mean, she had access that a lot of people did not have in that white house, kaitlan. and thank you very much. you want me here in washington, michael moore, jeff zeleny, dana bash, elie made his way over did you got here in plenty of time? it was a long, didn't break a sweat along with elliot williams, former manhattan district attorney and prosecutor, karen friedman, agnifilo. karam, those council for a firm that represents michael cohen. she has no contact with cohen, does not work on his case. there are no restrictions on what you can say about his case. disclaimer. disclaimer. disclaimer elie. >> let me go and dan, i'm sorry, but we're out numbered here that the lawyer is out number, the political reporters that's actually yeah, that's probably a good thing. >> it's the way the lord intended and go to the experts for here's an update. >> necklace begins by asking westerhout about 20:16 while she was working for the rnc. let's start talking about that there. i mean, that is and dan and jeff, you guys can weigh in to this is a highly critical point in the campaign westerhout, as i recall, was

with the rnc folks. she confirms the rnc and the trump campaign worked extremely closely together. she was sort of, under the wing of reince priebus and sean spicer at that time i recall she was reported as having cried on election night that donald trump won the presidency, but then became very much a trump person from inside, not happy to say that, not happy two years, exactly. so helpful. >> yeah. >> witness for which side? for the prosecutors in that respect? because one of the key themes of the prosecution case is that when the access hollywood it would take a month before the election that said panic through the trump campaign. and then that gave them all the more reason when a week or so later when stormy daniel's emerges with her potential allegations, they have more incentive to pay her off and the testimony thus far has been interesting because what westerhout said is there was panic inside the rnc, but then she qualified that in two ways. once you said donald trump himself was less worried than others, not unwary, but less worried. and two, she says, and you get, you all know this was true. >> trump was not the rnc's

preferred candidate for much of the time. >> so i mean, i'm interested to what your recollections yeah. >> we were there we remember that very well. if i may what's happening right now in the courtroom is that nicholas the trump attorney, is connecting her and having her explain the connection and the way that the rnc and the campaign work together. particularly his travel schedule there, you're going to handle. >> they're working hand in hand. >> and she said whenever the president elect was traveling, yes. >> yes. meaning that they aren't seeing the trump campaign, then we're putting a schedule an ally that's important. >> this is all important as elie brings up access hollywood, because this is step, this helps establish for the prosecution why they were sort of panic stricken at that point inside trump world, inside that inner circle might have wanted to suppress the stormy daniels story it'll be introduced, see how the defense pokes holes or tries to poke holes in them, why they were panics update right there. >> the jury is shown the list of trump contacts provided by

rhona graff. >> why that is relevant to this point, why they're panic-stricken, but also that there was communication between the white house and the rnc that those of us around this table know that the white house is also a political operation. it's not just a government entity. of course, you have people who are running for office. they have to support the president's reelection will part of that involves communication with republican can national committee and donors and so on. these questions of whether the former president and his campaign were concerned about the impact of some of this behavior. and so news of it getting out is entirely relevant and they have to establish that there is some length there and the reason she is relevant because she was the assistant to katie walsh, who is the assistant to reince priebus. the reason that matters is at the time she was running the trump transition at trump tower, was escorting people up. announcer, she had a ringside seat to this, but interestingly, yesterday she was talking about the meeting of michael cohen. she was taken down as information she was going to clear him in through secret service for that meeting in february. jim and i think

you and i both remember that meeting. it was just three weeks after trump was sworn into office. yeah. michael cohen was suddenly back in the west wing. he was having this meeting in the oval office, which was private. we didn't know what it was about at the time, but that's what her importance here is. she was basically the oval office version and their chronograph keeping functions performed. >> it was the handoff from the trump organization in trump tower to him being here at the oval office and she was at the center of all of that in a very friendly way. yeah. the trump organization gave madeleine basically those contacts that trump would be talking to you from time to time, the contacts included people trump might be interested speaking to, to invite them to the white house or something. very interesting. i think they're trying to the this is cross-examination, right? >> so it's trump's lawyer. i think they're trying to neutralize the fact that stormy daniels name was in rows and contact information was in rhona graff's contacts. and so the word might there is what i think the defense attorney wanted to get in there to show he might be interested in speaking to them. it doesn't

necessarily mean he had contact with these individuals. they're just trying to put some doubt in to the jury and discredit stormy daniels all right. >> and right now, as we've been saying, a trump white house inside or madeleine westerhout on the stand under cross-examination. again, the big breaking news this morning, michael cohen will get his term but under oath on monday, you thought stormy daniels was something in terms of testimony that are going to be one to watch. obviously, you're watching cnn special live coverage coming up a few moments let's try this again. >> what do you see? >> my first step is japan houston. second championship charles not winning a championship. getty was trying to stay positive or positive. he didn't win a ring oh, my god with powerful, easy to use tools, power, e-trade makes complex trading easier. we act fast moving markets with dynamic charting. and futures ladder. that lets you place flatten or reverse orders. so you won't miss an opportunity.

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chase freedom and limits. how do you cash back? >> eva mckend in washington. and this is cnn welcome back to cnn's special live coverage donkey lyn collins new york. >> and right now inside that courtroom that you are looking at trump's attorney, susan necheles is cross-examining madeleine westerhout. she is a trump white house insider, and the line of questioning shooting. so far is trying to make dense and the prosecution's case about how trump operated from the oval office joining me now, is ana kamensky the director? the criminal defense clinic at new york law school on it's great to have you as susan necheles, who is this famed defense attorney here in new york, is up questioning that alone? when and right now, there is a break as the juries are the lawyers are talking to the judge as their questioning her about this. and essentially, they're drilling in on one thing because yesterday in the courtroom, they showed this

email. it was a picture of donald trump boarding air force one for the first time on the front page of the new york times. >> and trump wanted it's sent to alice and weisselberg. >> of course, the former trump org cfo, who is now in prison after he just recently took a guilty plea. i just wonder what you make of how the defense has been doing so barr specifically with madeleine westerhout well, so i actually think they've been doing a very good job with her. >> first so of all, it's always good for the defense to end the de were they're the ones doing the questioning. and that's exactly how the end of the day yesterday, right. so they left the jury with their questions since in mind, in addition, it's really significant to note that we had stormy daniels testimony where she talked about a sexual encounter an alleged sexual encounter with trump, where it made it seem almost as if she'd really didn't want to go through with it, not something that's good in front of the jury. and now we have a young woman who's testifying about how much she liked trump, how nice he was to

her, what a good boss boss he was to her. and so they're getting all of that out and that's really significant and powerful testimony for them yeah. >> how does that work with the prosecution? because obviously she's a prosecution witness. she's here under a subpoena. she made that clear as she took the stand yesterday. and so she's there witness to tie to corroborate michael cohen that yes, he was at the white house, but also so took to talk about the links with, with allen weisselberg. but clearly the defense seems to agree that she's helpful to them yeah i mean i think, you know, listen for the prosecution. they need to keep calling witnesses that show that trump was involved when it came to these documents. so here is potentially a witness who can provide some of that information, right? she has testified to some of his attention to detail and they really need to get that now if you're a defense attorney and

you're in the courtroom yesterday, is the judge, which i should note the jury was not in the room. they'd already left the judge basically delivered this blistering assessment of how susan the attorney up right now, how she handled the stormy daniels direct examination that she didn't object more and he said he couldn't understand for the life of why she didn't. he kept saying her name over and over again. miss nicholas. nicholas. nicholas. >> i mean, if you're let defense attorney, how do you feel when you're leaving the courtroom that day listen, defense attorneys feel beat up all the time. >> okay. it's it's a thankless job and so as an experienced trial attorney, i'm sure that she, felt she feels a lot of days leaving court, which is i'm gonna fight another day. you objections are really hard because on the one hand, defense attorneys have to make object sections to preserve the record, right. to preserve the appeal. they've got to do that. and in addition, they need to make objections to the extent that they want to keep things away from the jury, things that shouldn't be in

front one of the jury for their consideration. >> on the other hand, as we know, objections themselves can really highlight what's being provided to the jury. >> and so i imagine that she was sitting there doing a cost it's benefit analysis of when should i object and when should i. and that is an in the moment decision she has to make. and it's hard yeah that is an understatement for sure on a kaminsky. >> thank you for that right now. >> so his the necklace is back at the podium and she is questioning madeleine westerhout all right. >> now about trump's travel schedule when he was inside the white house, we are reading these live updates inside the courtroom. as there is a lot of objections, right now, is the attorneys have been at the bench. i think three times already this morning, more in a moment as you're watching cnn's special live coverage of donald trump's hush money trial qizan my foot, dr. sanjay gupta, listen wherever you get your podcasts generalized myasthenia gravis made my life a lot harder.

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the white house and objection. after objection, after objection. this morning right now inside that manhattan courthouse behind me, as you are watching students, especially live coverage of donald trump's hush money trial. a reminder that madeleine westerhout is under cross-examination, right. trump's attorneys, susan necheles is asking her and reminder she ran over we'll office operations for trump when he first entered office about the checks that she was ferrying back and forth between trump tower and the white house. also inside the court today, i should note evidence that you cannot cleave the campaign from the courtroom. susie wiles, donald trump's 2024 campaign senior adviser,

effectively his campaign manager is in the courtroom right now listening to this testimony is she has in previous days of this trial going on right now, i should note that necklace is asking madeleine westerhout about the checks and how they got them, essentially from new york to washington and paula, what susan necheles, csv trying to do is say, well, this really wasn't a big deal. >> you had to to find a way to get the checks to the white house. the fact that they symptom fedex overnight, urgent priority doesn't seem to be a big deal. but having madeleine westerhout, a lot of familiarity with this in a sense up, sometimes it would be one check. she said sometimes it would be a half inch thick of checks. >> you to undercut any suggestion that he knew what he was signing and y here you also have to address why they were being sent at times to people like he's chillers, personal bodyguard, or body man. so i think that right now she's going through asking how difficult was it to receive things that the white house, because i think most people know that if you send something to the white house, it doesn't just go straight to the desk of

the president. there's an extensive screening process and that can delay when you're dealing with invoices, when you're dealing with business that's not great. so i think that's what they're going to get at here to allay any jury concerns about why these were being sent to individuals and not sent to the white house. was there anything not on the up and up going on. so that's what they're focused on. and then they just need to undercut any suggestion that he was to where or in the details of what it was he was signing, even though she did testify yesterday that he was very much in the details of things like buying a tiffany's frame and how much it costs and whether it was too expensive, even though they have 10% discount. and she's now saying that there were times personal items were sent to the white house and trump never received them. and she is now agreeing that the delay is how keith filler that was trump's body man, ended up receiving personal mail for the two of them because essentially setting up a box, kristen holmes was a po box, wasn't feasible because it took too long, but it was the sense of these checks were sent to people's personal home addresses, people like keith schiller, dani mcentee, another

white house aide, and the prosecution was essentially raising the idea that that's a bit odd to have to have it go to a personal home of an eight well, and certainly if you don't know how the white house works, or you don't know what was going on at the time. >> it does seem odd, right especially when we're talking about johnny mac and c and keith schiller, these are two people who were die loyalist to the former president jogging mcentee still being around him to this day. the idea that was going to their personal home address and they actually had to change it from keith schiller's to his address. keith schiller left the white house. >> it probably does seem very odd and i think that's what you're trying to seek, starting to see here season nicholas trying to explain why it was and this goes to the larger point that the defense has tried to make that this was a chaotic time that they were trying to separate the business from the white house, but they weren't really sure how it was going to work. and as we know, donald trump wasn't really ready to be president. and really he didn't even believe that he was going to be elected in 2016. >> so all of this was happening a chaotic time. >> and how do you set up him

easing out of his business and moving on to the presidency? >> and susan necheles, it says this was a way items could be sent to you. you could get them promptly to president trump and she emphasized the word promptly, but the defense attorney did madeleine westerhout said that's right. it was watching right now and you saw this yesterday as soon as susan nicholas got up there and shade this rapid-fire questioning for madeleine westerhout they are trying to basically use her as a witness for them to make her effective to downplay that this wasn't all that unusual, that trump was 1 million people were calling trump when he was in the white house that he felt the need to call the back, that it wasn't that intentional that he wasn't seeking out allen weisselberg or michael cohen, just saying what everyone was there and it was crazy. and this was all happening at once exactly? okay. it was crazy might be their best defense. and right now, they're also juxtaposing what is like to be in the private sector versus the federal government, right? things don't move quickly. now it's your house said of personal mailing issues. i don't know what it was like and other administrations, but i can't imagine it would have been any different. again, the

slow pace with which you can receive something. was it sent i think we're all she's been decent for the defense. she said if he had the time when you gave them to him, he would sign the checks right away. that gold this is asking if he signs the checks immediately. of course, this is really the most critical part of anything. she has said she has been helpful and that she's talked about how much enjoyed working for him, how much he adored his wife. but issue of the checks, if he had the time and if he was in the yes. she says of trump signing the checks. any knowledge he has about these checks, this is actually getting to the material that he is charged with. the alleged falsifying business records this whatever she says about this matters. >> well but she's trying to susan necheles is really something to watch as she's questioning these witnesses because the problem prosecution asked her about her being known as the greeter girl when she was in a transition period, at trump tower, she'd go downstairs and greet whoever trump was coming to meet and just to note nicholas asked whether topo signing hundreds of documents a day she testified not always, but the question was, would you see him signing things without

reviewing them? yes. westerhout says and that is critical testimony because that may give that reasonable doubt which you were saying all they need is a hung jury that's really what they view as a win here. if that can provide that reasonable doubt to these witnesses, are to the jury, but i think the question is, michael cohen's gonna get up there and say he knew exactly what he was signing, exactly. >> but again, this is reasonable doubt, so we saw this with connie and this idea that the trump administration, or excuse me, the trump organization was very detailed oriented that donald trump had its fingers and everything until he became president, then it was a picture of chaos that's what the defense. now, what the defense is doing is exactly the same thing, but on the other side, they're saying that yes, they came from trump organization when they got to the white house who knew what was going on. there are people in and out of his office? yes, of course, he was signing stuff without looking at it and i'm not reviewing it now, when it comes to michael cohen, this is what i mean when we're talking about donald trump's republican allies trying to rip them apart. what the defense is you've said is preparing to do in terms of saying he's not

reliable witness at the entire case, hinges on michael cohen. the question is, will the jury believe him and defense's job is to say no and this update, susan necheles is asking her, you would see him signing checks while he was on the phone. >> westerhout said, yes. >> she had just asked he's a person who would multitask. >> i mean, she is basically trying to paint to the jury a picture of donald trump on the phone, just signing checks and not really paying attention because he's having conversation and he's doing this. he's running the country as the president of the united states. yeah, the question is how effective this is with the jury. you would see them signing checks while he was meeting with people westerhout says, yes, really effective, really helpful testimony for the defense because the crux of their defenses, he wasn't paying attention. he was the leader of the free world. he wasn't necessarily paying attention to what darkly was happening with every invoice, how michael cohen is being paid. they also argue that michael cohen was his longtime lawyer, was it that strange for him to have a retainer know and that trump at this point, he was in the white house. he was not deep in the weeds of exactly what was going on in terms of how cone is being reinforced. so all these little nuggets from her, these are really helpful to the defense.

the big question is, how does it resonate with the jury well, what's the prosecution sitting there thinking as she they'll get a chance to question her again after this after susan necheles is done. >> but if you're a prosecutor, you're sitting there listening to this line of questioning. it's not helpful to, you know, and i would get back up and i would probably go back to her testimony about how detail-oriented he was or how invested he was still in his business how attentive he was to invoices, generally speaking, how attentive was he to the task of being the president? go back to that. this is also why we keep hearing from publishers and getting excerpts of books about how important it is to watch every dime, watch every penny. but again, i go back to jeff mcconney's testimony where he says yes, that was true until 2017. >> and the one thing to do yes. i know that this is at the heart of the case, but i do think that her testimony in general helps the defense because it softens donald trump. i mean, look at the witnesses that we've had so far, the seedy underbelly that donald trump was associating with or associating maybe through michael cohen width, then you have the access hollywood tape, then you have

this alleged affair in crafting detail with a porn star. now you have somebody saying that they looked are white, that donald trump loved his wife, that she loved him, and she cried at one point yesterday, talking about when she left the white house, it wasn't unfavorable terms because she had had said some unseemly things off trump's family and off the record dinner with reporters. she thought they got reported we should broken down in tears and also talk. now, she wrote a book because she thought trump was mistreated i mean, she was a character witness for him. exactly. and that's what i think we can take out. the obvious stuff that is happening right now, just really critical to the case, but also ultimately a jury is going to decide this. and if there are some humanizing moments for donald trump, any cdks about an alleged affair, cover up with a porn star. >> that's impolite susan nicholas is taking that invoice yesterday that rhona graff sent to basically show that trump was so she sent his envoys to trump basically saying, your president, do you still want to play this golf club membership and the food minimum or do you

wanted to see if i can delay it for eight years? and donald trump said, pay in sharpie on it. okay asap. and now susan nicholas is trying to downplay and say he wasn't really thinking about this, but it did go to show that roadgraph felt the need someone who worked with donald trump for decades felt the need to check in with them about a golf membership while while he was the president yeah. >> and it shows the extent of her her responsibilities, right. everything from helping with the business to helping with a golf club membership. but here i think this is pretty powerful. he just answered one for pe, boom, it was office desk and that's what the defense attorneys want to portray, that he was just signing these checks to michael cohen who get it off my desk, just get this out of my way. i'm busy doing other things so i think that this version of events mean this is helpful to the defense because it's all about just doubt. right? it's still reasonable doubt and it's up to the prosecutors to prove this beyond a reasonable doubt that he knew that he was falsifying business records to cover up another crime. >> that is a high bar and it's not clear they've done it so

far and indicate if she's doing any i think she's probably being the defense and she's going through every single line of questioning that the prosecution asked her. >> i mean, right now, this is people may be reading this and thinking, why is it tiffany frame being brought up? but again, there was an email where they needed a frame for a picture of trump's mother and rhona graff was saying, well, i can go to tiffany's and buy one, but they're $650 with he 10% discount. do you want to check with him if he wants to spend that much while he is precedent, they're checking to see if he wanted to spend that much for a frame and necklaces noting that westerhout said yesterday they made the executive decision to just buy it without checking with them, but the prosecution's point was they felt the need to check with him. >> this is true still today. i mean, donald trump is yes. you mentioned susie wiles, the effective campaign manager or co-campaign manager but big decisions for the campaign are currently go through donald trump when there's something big to comment on, they don't send something out unless donald trump has looked at it or unless he wants to send it out and we know that to be true, he is detail-oriented and

he does believe that he should have final say in all of them and she's saying nicholas is questioning madeleine westerhout sayyed when president trump was in the white house, you understood he was too busy to be dealing with this kind of thing. she says, yes how does that resonate? >> we don't we don't know what the jury is thinking, but but she's saying rhona graff may have asked what the cost of the frame, but that was more about her comfort than trump's need for approval. i mean, she isn't trying to have this right? every single line that the prosecution every inch of ground that they made with her radiograph is not comfortable spending the president's money, right was he said now that she spoke with trump after the article about stormy daniels or an hour getting into stormy daniels. but to this larger question of whether he knew what he was signing, the jury is going to have to weigh what he had said about himself and everyone at about him before into the white house, which is used always in the weeds. everything goes through him. he is the mastermind. there's no way something happens without his knowledge to what happens after 2017. and is it cross-examination is now over they'll probably there are expected to call another witness. well, i guess they'll probably do redirect, but after her, i think another witness, lesser known to someone to help get in evidence.

>> all it's really building to michael cohen, but the jury's look, they're just going to have to weigh these two portraits of trump. the one the prosecution puts forth, but he's put forth about himself. and then this one of the fence argues, is what he was like in 2017 and that's why i keep going back to jeff mcconney's testimony because i think it was one of the most important leinz in the entire case so far, he says yes, and then everything changed once he went to the white house does the jury believe that? >> i don't know? >> yeah. and we'll see what prosecutors say. prosecutors are about to question metal of west out after trump's attorney had the chance to cross-examine her and basically tried to undermine everything. the prosecution asked her yesterday, we'll see what they do now that they are back questioning madeleine westerhout, this trump insider, once again about checks that were sent through official channels, not through those, but there is body man's home address, sentence, special live coverage is going to continue after a quick break and trump insider will join us in moments moscow pistorius was at the absolute peak of his celebrity,

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actually the caretakers of the planet is something that i feel really passionately about. i'm caitlin polantz at the federal court in washington and this is cnn welcome back to cnn special live coverage. amjad bokassa and washington madeleine westerhout. we should know, just got off the witness stand at follows rapid-fire questions from both prosecutors and defense attorneys donald trump's lawyers are asking westerhout about the chaos you witness inside the white house. also, a lot of talk of checks. so when trump was signing checks and what he was doing while side finding those checks, susan necheles defense are getting the onetime oval operations directed to testify about how trump would even signed things without looking and we should note just a few moments ago, westerhout, as she was leaving the witness stand smiled at trump and trump smiled back at her mouthing something so interesting, they're a little interaction there between donald trump and

madeleine westerhout. but michael moore, one thing that i wanted to get into because this happened during the break. there's a little bit of a redirect in re-cross with the attorneys and madeleine westerhout talking about westerhout, i guess, on a zoom call with susan necheles, is last night or excuse me, on wednesday night and the prosecution was also talking to madeline, talk about the importance i mean, there's really nothing unusual and it's expected for the lawyers to talk to a witness that they those going up. >> i mean, it let's its preparation and you do that if you didn't do it, it'd be pretty much malpractice, so there's nothing there's nothing particularly i'm using about that and you saw that the government then came back in and said it had to acknowledge during questioning if of course that they talked to him prepped are a number of times in excess of what the defense dead. so they're trying to show some connection, but they failed. and i think that probably was the importance of her testimony really is that the state put her up and she's the one closest to the oval office the one closest to the checks. she's watching the sharpie and the fedex envelopes and all and

the defense was able to sort of turn it around and say no, but you're the you're the firsthand witness. you saw how little attention he paid to this step. so they they really have got to count on cohen to pull all these pieces together next week, i mean, cohen is going to be a little bit like the marshmallow and the rice crispy treat without it. and you gotta well it out at you don't have anything. but if they don't do it right, it's going to be messy and these pieces are never going to come together. and that's really, this is just a piece. and so we'll have to see very tasty treat but we should note there talking to a an employee of at&t who is on the witness stand right now, testify as a records custodian under a subpoena. so follow these updates as they come out, but ellie, do you want to pull back or agree with michael here? i mean, i do think it's interesting that the prosecution wanted to sort of make the point that madeleine is kind of a pro-trump witness. >> yeah. >> even though they were trying to get some important details. >> yeah, i think it backfired though. there were a couple of moments at work great on that cross, subtle but not great. one they asked madeleine westerhout how well the reason you were using fedex as you are trying to end run the white

house process. she said, no, it's faster. and then they said, you met with the defense for an hour, didn't you? she said yes. and then on redirect, trump's team came back and said, how many times you meet with them. and it was three times for several hours. so nothing wrong with meeting with a witness, as michael said prosecutors always want to talk to witnesses. usually usually do get to talk to witnesses defense lawyer is always ask and usually are told no thank you. so i i guess the jury would take away. yeah. she's somewhat sympathetic to trump, but that didn't go well for the prosecutors. that little exchange and elliot let's not get too bogged down on that. let's talk about this new witness. why would this be important color? we'll records, civil driver record. absolutely. we'll see what comes up. i think called records and subscriber records. you can track when phone calls were made. also in text messages particularly in the age of the encrypted message where sometimes you may not have a record. you may not have a record of when a text message was sent or the text message itself may have gone, but you have a record with the cellular company that a text message was

sent from person to person b on this date then when you bring in person a or person b to testify, they can say what the contents of the message sort of interesting that we're seeing the state use this at&t, the text message and stuff here in georgia in that case, we watched the defense users talking about text back and forth district attorney and her assistant normally, the prosecution wouldn't have to call someone like this to the stand because the lawyers would agree and stipulate this is this is somebody who is just a records custodian, but trump's lawyers have refused to stipulate to anything, so they have to call these these types of witnesses that don't know anything about this case. >> they're just going to say that these calls were made on these dates. are these text messages were made from these phones et cetera, tactically move. we were saying when we first realized that they were not going to stipulate that they weren't going to just allow things to go into the record that it was part of the overall delay strategy, but when i think about it, the more wonder in this case what do

they want to delay strategy? >> yeah, i don't think i don't want it out and it out on the trip. >> but i think part of the reason that defense team refuses to stipulate it happens rarely, as karen said, is sort of just a move of defiance, like we're not agreeing with you on anything. the other thing is the jury won't know. the jury what we told hey, folks, ordinarily people stipulate to this. they're going to just think it's necessary and normal for this to happen. >> i want to go out to david urban, former trump campaign advisories, joining us now, david, your thoughts on a madeleine westerhout's testimony and this conversation about checks it sounds like the defense was trying to make the case that well, sometimes they bring in checks to donald trump and he's just sort of on the phone or talking to somebody, any signing a check and out goes the check is that something that you witnessed that kind of behavior? i mean, it does sort of fly in the face, does it not of trump's own book, which the prosecution made menchu, that he made made a very pretty clear he wanted to sign every check he wanted to know where all the money was going yeah.

>> so jim, let's be clear. i wasn't in the room for these particular instances. are exchanges, but just like in life, there's a little bit of truth in both things, right? so sometimes the former president was drilled down and very granular on these issues and sometimes he was he wasn't he was distracted and not paying attention. madeleine is i would have to think being the room there. i know are pretty well would have to be a pretty sympathetic witness. and i'm sure the former president got some solace from seeing her up there. she's she's a friendly witness, but at the end of the day, gym and you've got a great panel former prosecutors, they're sitting next to you. i'm not so sure that's really advances the ball into the underlying crime here of how these records were kept. what, what is madelyn offer to that? and the jury sitting there day after day after day hearing, all these building blocks. but at some point the prosecution is going to have to make their case and it seems like it just taken an awfully long time. >> well, let me ask you. yeah.

because i really to land the plane, david, i think there's a key jump ball coming on monday. are you worried about what michael cohen is going to stay on? the standard you know, michael cohen, i'm not the word yeah. >> no, i know michael. >> he's not exactly former president anymore no. >> and listen, i think that in yours too, i think that in yours to the former president's benefit the defense is going to say exactly that. look, michael cohen is no fan of donald trump. all you need to do is tune into social media every night and watch him for six hours, rail on the former president john of the records, right? now your office is one of the records or they're talking about right now in this case is michael cohen's cell phone. so we're gonna be getting into some of that michael cohen's named popping up in this key testimony here. but is that going to set trump off does it have michael cohen going after him on the witness stand? i mean, we saw the judge you the day basically telling the defense control your client he can't be muttering things and saying of saturday's and so on during the stormy daniels

testimony i think at this point, donald trump's probably amused at michael cohen. i am sure the anger ship has long since sailed in the donald donald sharp, michael cohen wrote relationship. it has been you've heard michael cohen's own testimony and what he's told people about. he didn't want to work in the white house, said he did want to work in the white house. he was angry because didn't get a job in the white house it's so much and then you heard, oh pick, say, most of that, most of them things that might lead to clean up or caused by michael to begin with but so i don't think that donald trump in this instance is going to be fuming. i think he'll be i don't want to say bemused, but he will watch it credulously. >> one others, one of cleanups on il-4 is going to be the stormy daniels matter and all of this. and i'm just curious, david, i remember the days later taking 2016, you and i at a trump rally in pennsylvania looking at those big lines going into those rallies and so

on. i mean, you probably were unaware at that time of all the stormy daniels business, but i mean, you know, pennsylvania well what are suburban female voters going to think after this week, after all of that? >> i mean, very detailed testimony and i kind of wonder what you think about how the defense handled stormy daniels. >> i mean, donald trump's been saying all along that he didn't have this affair with stormy daniel's. it sounds like susan necheles was all but admitting that in her cross-examination of stormy daniels, this week yeah a lot to unpack there. and your question, jim, right. so first, what are suburban women voters get to think about it? look, if i knew that i'd be no you know, david, you know, that was not helpful. i mean, maybe i'm being i'm doing an acid. >> but if jim if you give me a break, if you think it's gonna be helpful, that's obviously it's obviously not going to be helpful, but, but the flip side is there are some people that feel that who are trump supporters, right to begin with, that, feel this, this ongoing not prosecution, but

persecution and donald trump it causes them to double down. it gets some people off the fence and look, your your your panelists there. i've been watching this pretty closely. i think all agreed that perhaps the prosecution went a little too far and they're and they're dealing with stormy daniels. she wasn't a greatest witness for the prosecution she was the courted that the prosecution on several times for going far afield where they're supposed to. so i'm not i'm not sure her her her testimony was a net plus for the prosecution all right. david, we'll talk again soon. thanks so much. appreciate it analogous. yep prosecutors entering phone records into evidence, you've been seeing that unfold on the left side of your screen including call and text logs from michael cohen, sort of teeing up the star witness coming up on monday, he set to testify on just a few days are now much more cnn special live coverage just ahead five good things. listen wherever you get your podcasts from tried and

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prostate, find it at walmart this is cnn the world's news welcome, back to cnn's a special live coverage of donald trump's hush money trial right now inside that courtroom behind me, the defense is beginning. it's cross-examination of a phone records custodian for at&t. this happens after prosecutors are laying the foundation, entering the documents into the record that they are going to use just to backup the accounts of their star witnesses in this case testimony from headline names like michael cohen, who a source is now told cnn does expect to testify under oath on monday. a lot to talk about without of course, we've got don e. jones here, who is a

former us district judge, a retired us district judge, and pennsylvania and judge it's great to have you here in a kamensky also audit kaminsky also back with us. and judge, let me start with you because obviously, you know, how to operate a courtroom and what that looks like watching judge were sean yesterday at the end of the day as he was giving this upgrading to trump's team about how they have handled there while they were sitting there as the direct examination and stormy daniels is happening, but also their cross-examination of stormy daniels was quite remarkable. and i just wonder what you make of the scolding and how trump's team handles that? going forward for the rest of this trial that's a great question. >> caitlin. and clearly, i think the judge felt that the cross wet on too long and the cross did nothing but allow the witness to repeat at many junctures, damaging testimony in fact, prejudicial testimony

with respect to the former president. and he made the remark that they opened the door in the beginning by trump flatly denying that the encounter took place. so you can't have it all ways and i think i think the cross-examination should really lapsed into something that was gratuitous. he saw that he also i think for the dem for not objecting enough during the prosecution's portion he had to he had to jump in himself on a number of occasions and i think he's just as losing his patients but what is judge, how does that is trump's team handle that? i mean, obviously, they have had a contentious relationship with the judge at times. i mean, trump goes outside the courtroom every day and says that he's corrupt, even though there's no basis from that for what i've seen, he's actually been a pretty fair judge inside that courtroom to trump going out of his way to say it doesn't want to embarrass him over certain things when he's mouthing curse words as stormy daniels

was testifying what is it like when there is such a tense relationship like that between the defense team and the judge you know what kayla and i did this for almost 20 years as a presiding trial judge and we're all too human and sometimes temporaries and anxiety and even anger. i get the best of all of us. it's a new day in the courtroom. i think judge merchan i'm probably takes a deep breath and hopefully it goes home and gets a little bit of sleep. and, and comes back the next day he's been my view on balance. very fair to everybody in this case, but it boiled over a bit yesterday. i think that's just human nature at that point. i think bottom he understands they have a very difficult client on their hands. i think some of the cross-examination, quite frankly, was performative in nature, i think to please the client and not necessarily their move the ball from a

probative standpoint. >> speaking of cross-examinatio n on, we know michael cohen is going to go and testify on monday. that's when he's going to start trump's attorneys right now are cross-examining this at&t executive. i think it's safe to say that is pale and pales in comparison to what they are planning for michael cohen, if you are the trunk defense team and you know, michael cohen is going to be on the witness stand next week. how are they preparing for that well, less than neighbor and preparing for him to testify for months and months and months and months, right? this is the key prosecution witness, right. he provides the link to these documents to this payment and to the alleged conspiracy. and so they really have been thinking about this non-stop there. that's all they're thinking about. and they will continue to do that over the weekend. >> well, i mean, did they just plan to a him? what is a tactic

that they're approaching when it comes to thinking about how the jury will perceive how they handle that cross well, so this that's a great question because i think there's a couple of things they have to keep in mind. you know it's clear that what they need to do is they have to, they have to show that he's not credible, right? that's no surprise to anyone. >> but what they have to be careful with is what we know based on what we've seen with him as he's got the potential michelle to be a really loose cannon. >> and the worst thing that you can do on cross-examination is lose witness control, right? lose control of how the witnesses responding to your questions. so in addition to the task of trying to show the jury that he's not credible. he's not believable. they also need to maintain control over that witness. so they've got to think about that while keeping in mind how the jury is going to perceive him yeah. >> i mean, if we thought stormy daniels was headlined, were they michael cohen is is only going to supersede that on a

kamensky judge jones. thank you both for bringing your expertise. he says we are watching this live coverage. i do want to turn now to some breaking news that is justin to cnn as steve bannon could be headed to jail very soon, a dc appeals court has just upheld the former trump chief strategist, contempt of congress conviction. paula reid has been following the story very closely. paula, i mean, steve benen has been trying to get this overturn. what what's the latest yeah, it's been going on for awhile here. the us court of appeals upheld this conviction. he had a four-day trial. he was convicted by a jury, four criminal contempt of congress. now would expect he will likely appeal this to the supreme court. so it's unclear. he'll be going to jail sun, but he argued that there was certainly hey, evidence that was excluded from his case. now, he refused to comply with a subpoena from the january 6 committee. he argued that he was waiting to get more clarity about potential executive privilege. but remember who wasn't at the white house at this point, and again, the jury did not find that to be a

credible reason to ignore a subpoena he, is not the only a trump ally who found themselves in this position. >> peter navarro recently reported to federal prison to start serving a sentence for a similar conviction. >> now, he again, they have slightly different tracks in the federal judiciary, which is why one is just taking a little bit longer luck of the draw, the up. peter navarro also appealed to the supreme court. they we're not willing to engage on this case. he is in prison and steve bannon could soon be as well. >> i think it's pretty remarkable. kristen holmes, i mean, these are two they would self-describe as loudmouths, always out in front of the camera, always kinda this defiant, didn't feel like they had to comply with that congressional subpoena. >> and i don't think either of them thought that end up in this way. i mean, a period of borrow certainly didn't know who's he was on his way to this miami prison. it's next to the zoo. you can hear the lions roar. we're told by from this worthiest prison is, i mean, it's safe to say he did not think that he'd be in this position no absolutely not. i think that they kind of went with the same strategy that donald trump himself does,

which is denied, denied, delay, delay, push this as far as you can. i certainly think peter navarro never thought that he would be according to jail at any point. they kept pushing this through. i think xiu said the supreme court saying no things likely that they would do the same thing with bannon's case and he could likely be in jail as well. i think the other thing to point out here is that both of these people are still trump loyalists. they are still around donald trump now they're not nearly as close to the former president but then as they used to be. but it is interesting that you have these two people who are in donald trump's orbit close to him of revere him now two of them might be going to prison. >> what could this sentence or this look like for steve van? well, he faces i mean, potentially years in prison, but it's unlikely held you that i just want to note that alvin bragg bringing it back to manhattan has just made a rare appearance inside court. >> i'm going in there once so far. well, we want me to i was at the beginning once at the beginning, and then one other time is sources told me he came in the second time because several manhattan da employees were testifying again, as

evidenced, the summary witnesses because the defense attorneys won't agree to stipulate. so he came in to support them, but it's interesting that he's back. i wonder if we're gonna here we are, we know we actually are going to hear likely today from one of the manhattan da paralegals who previously testified she helped to get in some social media posts. it could be that that's why he's back in the court, but i just want to know it. i mean, he has taken such a different approach to this case as competitive sure. to prosecutors in georgia and even the attorney general of new york, letitia james, she hit the mics on our way into court, on our way out-of-court to sparred social media with trump alvin bragg has said absolutely nothing throughout the entire course of this case. >> a lot of breaking news on multiple legal fronts. steve bannon maybe headed to jail soon as paul just noted, here in manhattan, we're seeing a rare appearance by the district attorney inside the courtroom. we'll be watching it closely. we have several reporters inside that courtroom right now. it is a busy morning here. much more of cnn's special live coverage. we're going to take a quick break and we'll be back in moments this is a

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about trump via closed captioning brought to you by meso book.com our firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their families. if you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with mesothelioma, call us now welcome back as seen in special live coverage, alvin bragg, the manhattan district attorney, bringing the historic criminal case against former president is now inside the 100 centre street courtroom as prosecutors question and other executive from a phone company has sort of establishing how these records work and sort of a fact witness for the jury and just only i didn't want to go to you because susie wiles is also in the core and we should note that that is interesting. >> i mean, that the eye i've said this a number of times and i'll say it again. the campaign is the courthouse and the courthouse this is the campaign. it seems often with this business for sure. >> and she is if you're wondering who susie wiles is, she is a long time of florida

republican who is effectively running this campaign. she's the adult in the room, probably the biggest example of the difference in this trump campaign than his previous to campaign, she keeps things on track back. she calms him, she advises him. so i think what we're seeing, we saw florida senator rick scott in the courtroom yesterday. it's part of the effort to ensure the former president is not alone in the courtroom as we saw in the first week. so she's very important to this and look should probably also, a lot is riding on this. what happens on this case is going to depend on what on how this campaign unfolds. so but i think it's mainly just being around him in his orbit. there. certainly important, uh, she was not involved in the 2016 campaign at all. she's a newer figure effects. she worked for florida governor ron desantis then that's a whole another story. but i think her main value is to just sort be there for her client who is a candidate for president. >> yeah. i mean, you got susie wiles in the courtroom with donald trump. we've got steve bannon possibly going to prison because of the ruling from the

appeals court, but karen, i did want to ask you, why are we talking about phone records? why is this going on? forgive me if i sound a little like a little sleepy luck. >> i mean this is the important records matter jurors are going to be paying attention to the small details of of who called, who when it's all about an effort to pre corroborate to use it, to borrow a term from la to preclude corroborate michael cohen and to get every detail about things that michael cohen's going to talk about. jurors are going to want that they're going to want to crop rate. michael cohen, who has a conviction for lying and lying under oath. right. so so it's kind of a big deal that these witnesses are going in. prosecutors have to prove there hey beyond a reasonable doubt. and so they they have to do see, here's here's a phone record now for allen weisselberg. it's going to show the connections between allen weisselberg in donald trump, allen weisselberg and michael cohen. michael cohen and donald trump, michael all

of these records are for that. but one other thing i just wanted to comment on what you were saying about susie wild in the courtroom. jurors notice things like who is in the room and who's not in the room, even if nobody talks about it. and it's going to be very interesting. they're also going to notice that trump's family by enlarge is not there as wife is not there. and what they make of it, who knows, but they will note it. and why would alvin bragg come in? >> so the deal it's interesting that that's something that people would think is strange. the de, a very regularly goes and walks around and cy vance was the same. we just walk around and it's you go to support your people. this is a high profile case. this is a lot of stress. it's a lot of work people don't go home and see their families when you're on trial and they get a lot of criticism to the especially trump says things are supporters say things and it's it's, it's just sometimes it's nice to know your boss has your back. >> that's what he goes for. it just adds that i know alvin

bragg's cross-examination happening of the verizon witness. yeah. i used to work with alvin bragg. were colleagues, friends? as well. i'm todd blanche, i should say, well, three know each other. it's a small world karen's right in a case like this, a high-profile case typically, the head of the agency, the us attorney, the ag, whatever it may be, the da will make a show in court of support. alvin bragg has played this quiet. >> he's not in the court often. and it's interesting. alvin bragg in his office do not want this case to be the only thing they're known for. they just yesterday sent out their public email blast. it's actually interestingly titled what you don't see. and i think that's maybe a little shot it all of us in the media, right? you're only seeing this and then it's all about all their other cases. we did a retail theft ring and all that. so if you look at their materials, they want to stress, we're doing data he today, new york law enforcement, even though all the stuff that donald trump hits them on when he goes, i talks in front of a break. >> okay. let's be real. the only thing anyone's ever got to remember all this is this trying, but let's be real there is a former president

candidate for president sitting in the courtroom because it is a case that they brought city yes, they can do these press release at least that's their job. that's their right. but like sitting in a courtroom yelling, talking about porn stars, and being spanked with forbes magazine and sex and intimate details. all of the, all of the information and facts about this make it the kind of thing that people might end up tuning out the rest of the good work of the manhattan da's office, which was frankly unfortunate. and david are urban, you've been sticking around and listening to this conversation. i didn't want to ask you about what karen was mentioning a few moments ago why why haven't the trump family member has been in the courtroom with them? >> jim, i don't have an answer for you on that. right. i've i've not discussed it with them. obviously, there have been certain members of the team. they're on a day-to-day basis. my guess is that, you see an erik their once in awhile, but, you know, people, people have jobs that they're going about and and maybe,

maybe the political strategy and the legal strategy is not to have the family there. i'm not privy to the inner machinations of this court case. there susie's there today. i know the former president has a rally later tonight and wild would new jersey. and so i suspect that's why she's there. they're going to be headed there later, so i think when it when it makes sense, they're there when it doesn't, they're not there listen, the entire families completely supportive of the former president that by, by no means, is it mean they're absence means they're not supporting him? >> yeah. >> fully supportive of i mean, i don't know we haven't seen ivanka and jared in there, have we we haven't i mean yeah, i would keep some distance. seems a little bit. it seems to me. >> yeah, i don't listen. i don't think that that means that they're not supportive of their father or father-in-law. i spent some time with mla fani a few weeks, go down at mar-a-largo. she seemed to be in a good place for my for my

judgment. so do why? because they're she's not there for for the obvious reasons, jimmy, now it says be bigger distraction then i think it would be in its probably personally hurtful for her. i can't speak for her, but we should know rise that spec and she's she's a human, right? she is feelings like you and i and everybody else. >> we should note. beauvais, the defense attorney was asking the witness there are a few moments ago to confirm some of these these phone records. and that witnesses now off the stand. the court has taking a brief morning break but i guess i do want to go back to elliot williams, eliot your sense of why these phone records matter and what might they be teeing up? i mean, we still have more to come this afternoon without question. it's setting the stage for michael cohen. again, you need both the documents which can't be cross-examined, and the witness who can and they are establishing a record for which conversations happen,

which text messages might have been sent. and then you'll have cohen or someone else say, what exactly was behind them. >> yeah. give me a big moment. dana or michael cohen? goes into that courtroom moments that's going to be no question. >> i'm not sure. david, i don't know about you were saying earlier that trump's gonna be able to hold it all and i'm not so sure about that when michael cohen is their face i got to go, jim, i think the big yeah the bigger question is, could michael cohen hold it in, right? i mean, michael cohen is not necessarily the most disciplined witness, and i think let's see let's see what his antics hold. i think he may do more harm for the prosecution than good all right. well, i'm getting accused of antics here, holding up the commercial break. i gotta go, but jury the jury is now out of the courtroom. they're taking a little break right now. donald trump's hush money trial winding through day 15 with critical building block witnesses. you're watching cnn special live coverage. stay right. are we ready? hi every

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it today, go chu pretty litter.com. >> i'm sara marie and washington. and this is cnn objections right now how inside 100 centre street, donald trump's attorneys are trying to stop the prosecution from using an cnn clip, a truck interview with larry king, in which the former president discusses campaign finance laws. >> it has been a busy morning once again, inside court, but it's hard not to look forward to what we are expecting on monday. that is when a source tells us michael cohen will take the stand i'm dana bash and washington and you are watching cnn special live

coverage of donald trump's hush money trial and i'm kaitlan collins here in new york, the former president left the courtroom just a few moments ago, stopping to say hello. >> to fox news personality, judge janine pyrrho as he made his way into the hallway? of course, as we know, it's not just members of the media are inside the courtroom. other public figures can also go inside members of the public themselves, prosecutors and trump's attorneys have spent much of the morning on details, questions, how trump handled checks, did he pay attention to what he was? signing? >> what bone records may or may not establish about this case. there's much more from our reporters inside the court as the jury is taking their seats once again, but data, of course, it has been a morning where maybe it's not a household name, but they are trying to basically lay the groundwork for that. michael cohen testimony on monday. >> yeah, they sure are. we're going to talk more about that here with our panel. we are. >> i don't know, almost two hours into the court, at least from the outside in a starting

again today, elie bring us up to speed about what we've seen so far. >> so every trial has its ebbs and flows, i guess now we're in an ebb of sorts, but an important eb, this is really important stuff. what we've seen so far this morning is really they're trying to build a foundation for michael cohen. they're building up to monday and they're putting subtle but important pieces in place. for example, we just saw two witnesses from at&t and verizon isn't phone records, but those phone records will surely support some of the things michael cohen says, for example, i'm sure we'll be asked how often was donald trump in touch with allen weisselberg? i'm sure hole say all the time. i'm sure the phone records will support him on that. >> so these types of building blocks are really important. >> there's also an interesting debate happening right now about whether they, whether the prosecutors can introduce evidence of donald trump back in 1999, talking to larry king about his views on campaign finance, laws. and we all know donald trump has said several times, including connection to the 2016 election. i'm the world's foremost expert on campaign finance laws. but this goes to one the key theories of the case that the reason they

falsified those hush money payments was to evade and to violate campaign finance laws. they need to show some sort of knowledge on trump's. and so we're building up to michael cohen. it may seem dry, but it's really important. it's all going to come back into focus on monday. yeah, it's the bricks that andrew mccabe was talking about the other day and just just to kind of bring us back to what's happening right now in new york. the objection that you were talking about to bringing this clip from cnn from way back in the day, is they trump defense says that it's not relevant with respect to his state of mind in 20 2016 and 2017, we're talking about almost a decade later, what's used to important legal definitions here that should be in everyone's hundred and every first-year law students said, number one, relevance, this idea that any evidence that is introduced in trial ought to make a fact more or less likely to be true. that is central to the to the case, right here. what the argument that the

defense is making is that you would be bringing in information that isn't relevant. it doesn't help prove or disprove whether donald trump committed this act on this day. it's just talking about what he did in the past and then there's a tinge of prejudice in there as well, which is another important legal term. this idea that you could bring in evidence that right actually be so damaging that it taints the jury's mind about the defendant individually and personally, and just real quick, we are getting to the heart of one of the major charges against the former president, which is the us or alleged abuse of campaign money, right? because what makes this a felony is that it's done in order to either aid or commit or conceal another crime, the false business records because it false falsifying business records is also a crime in and of itself in new york, but it's a misdemeanor. what makes it a felony is if you're doing it in order to commit this other crime emmer, have the intent to conceal or commit this other crime. and the

prosecution alleges three theories of crimes that donald trump is alleged to have intended to cause a tax evasion and federal and state election laws. >> okay. casey, welcome back. >> thank you now, you have been i'm sure watching every detail of this very long show this coming back now, i couldn't watch what your what's your takeaway particularly as we wait for this break to be over from trump's former assistant in the when he was in the white house. yeah. i mean, look, i thought it was really interesting in the texture that she brought to it in terms of her being relatively sympathetic to trump, right? we haven't seemed to have so much about on the stands, certainly not from stormy daniels who openly admitted that she hated trump's. so to have someone who seem to think very highly of the former president, i felt was an interesting contrast do you think that what i'm most interested in is how we're going to feel as the big

picture starts to come together here, because we were very caught up in every moment, hanging on every word of what was going on with stormy daniels and the whiplash between that and now what we're seeing in terms of verizon records going into the record these these sort of very mundane details that in all likelihood are probably more important to the actual outcome of the case, or could be more important to the outcome of the case. >> still, i think it leaves me without a clear sense of where we are. >> so i am looking forward to when we get to michael cohen and we start to see how this all ties together and now i'm michael, i'm not sure what you think about how that plays with a jury. in particular, the up and down nature of this i think jurors pay attention to a lot of things that can happen in a trial and it's easy to lose a jury if you don't keep them engaged and keep something interesting before, i mean, you can sort of beitin, but until you set the hook and keep it in their mouths as you go, it's hard to it's hard to advance. >> so they're used to the up and down. and this also kind of

about it from the week strategy that is in week being the calendar week, that the prosecution could not want to end on something that we're gonna be attacked. they couldn't and on vulnerable witnesses way, they couldn't then also matter credibility issues as we so they needed to get this sort of administrative staff out of the way. friday's a good day to do that for all the historic nature of this trial, it is a trial. so for any of us who have covered cases or prosecuted cases, this is what a trial looks like. it's not an episode of law and order where everything is sexy. i mean, there are some fundamental housekeeping things that are very important. but i think madeleine westerhout, so as you bring her up, i just want our viewers to know that what you're seeing in the bottom right of your screen now you just see it's friendship trump. there. you see that is a new sketch that we just got in from earlier this morning when madeleine westerhout was on the stand. continue and she is interesting, i think in the sense that surely is the connection between the evolution of donald trump. >> i mean, we're still talking about a period here of time when he was just becoming president. i think we think of

him now as already served president and running again, but this is a period back in 2016 into 2017. so very their processes are just being set up in the white house, but she was talking yesterday then again this morning on cross-examinati on about michael cohen and clearing him into the white house next week, we are going to be talking about the time when michael cohen came into the west wing, it was a dramatic de for all of us who remember that day. he was always in the orbit of donald trump. was he going to come into the white house? was he not? he didn't, of course, but he came for that meeting and also on po boxes, she said something very interesting this morning that one of the reasons she used a federal express was because it was faster, but the president had a post office box some checking with a former people who worked in the obama white house in the bush white house, they said neither one of those presidents had, po boxes. i'm not sure about other presidents, but that's an interesting detail that a president would want a po box for personal mail.

>> so we're running agree with you, jeff, that's really cold, has nothing to do with the trial, but interesting history here. >> guys are saying that the former president is pumping the air, is walking back into the courts. so we do expect that it will likely resume soon eleia's now made his way over to the magic wall. elie everybody is on pins and needles waiting for what jeff was just talking about. >> the prosecution we expect are going to they're going to call their big final witness, michael cohen what do we expect from that testimony? >> yeah, dan and this will be the most important moment of this case. so let's take a look ahead to what we can expect to hear from michael cohen when he takes the stand on monday, easy to forget now, but there was a time, as you know, dana, when cohen was donald trump's fierce advocate, lawyer fixer, and he's going to take the jury back to that time now, michael cohen spoke just yesterday. he gave us a little bit of a tease about his upcoming testimony. let's take a quick listen to what he said. >> kinda looking forward to it.

because again can't be finished with something unless you started. right? it's kinda like an entrepreneurial mindset. you can be in, in, unless you willing to get in it. and so there we go sooner or this thing starts. the sooner this thing finishes, and that way i can yeah, this too shall pass little bit oblique there, but are cnn reporting has confirmed that he will be testifying on monday. now, the most important part of michael cohen's testimony will go to these catch and kill schemes. and we heard testimony earlier from david pecker pecker that he and cohen work together to pay for the rights four and then squash damaging stories that donald trump, including karen mcdougal. and of course most importantly that in this case, because this is where the criminal charges lie to stormy daniel's now with respect to the stormy daniels hush money payment, michael cohen will testify that he first made the payment over to stormy daniels and her lawyer. that was for $130,000. he actually drew down on his own home mortgage in

order to get the money. and then in the months and year that followed, donald trump and the trump organization reimbursed michael cohen for that payment and for other expenses for $420,000. so michael cohen is going to detail those transactions. and importantly, who knew what about what and when. for the jury. now, michael cohen prosecutors have made a point to say michael cohen is going to be corroborated. he's going to be backed up in part by documents including foreshore, those reimbursement checks that were used to repay michael cohen, a series of 35,000 knowledge checks paid to michael cohen once a month for a year. some of them, not all, but some of them were signed by donald trump himself. and really importantly, and we just saw this morning and yesterday, the prosecution is laying the groundwork for this crucial meeting to happen in the white house february 5, 2017, a few weeks into donald trump's term, when michael cohen meets one-on-one with donald trump. and i think michael cohen, we can expect him to testify. here's where we discussed the stormy damon stormy daniels payment and reimbursement

scheme that really goes to the heart of these charges. >> elie, i'm going to ask you a follow-up question about what the defense is going to plan. looking ahead to monday. but meanwhile, as you were talking in the courtroom the judge sided with the defense on what they were fighting over and the question was about whether the trump interview from cnn in 1999, where he talked about campaign finance would be allowed as evidenced and the judge said the answer is no he also said just gave a little bit more on timing. so that's interesting. that's certainly a win for the defense. >> yeah. and then it goes it goes to the stormy daniels payment because one of the thing prosecutors need to show is that there was some knowledge by donald trump that what they were doing was avoiding those campaign finance laws. prosecutors are gonna have to prove that some other way. now to your other question, how are prosecutors going to cry? plus examined michael cohen, i think for quite awhile and quite aggressively. first of all, michael cohen has already been convicted. he pled guilty in federal court back in 2018 to

certain crimes, including campaign finance violations relating to the stormy daniels payment that's sort of plays both ways good for the prosecutors to say he already pled guilty to essentially doing this defendants are going to say it shows he's dishonest he made false statements to congress. he also pled guilty to tax fraud and bank fraud, having nothing to do with donald trump relating to his own finance. the other leinz of cross that i would watch for us, other prosecution witnesses have already testified that michael cohen was unreliable, was a liar. you can bet they're going across on that personal bias. i mean, michael cohen hates donald trump. he makes no bones about it at this point. the defense will point that out. and finally, that michael cohen has a financial motive. he's made quite a bit of money from his books and his other media appearances. so we're a few days out from this, but this cross-examination is going to be intense, dana. >> yeah. >> absolutely intense. i think it's going to be certainly somebody mentioned lawn order. i mean, that that that is one one of the many moments that we wish. we had a camera in the courtroom for. i think all of the moments we wish we had a camera in the courtroom four.

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to find inner peace we who made, to track flight prices to paradise make your first move with battery power made by steel right now, say $50 on battery lawn mower sets, real still find yours. >> i'm natasha bertrand at the pentagon and this is cnn a repeat witness on the stand right now. that's inside 100 centre street, the courthouse just behind me. the prosecution

has just recalled a manhattan paralegal and the district attorney friday's office to the stand i'm kaitlan collins in new york. you're watching cnn special live coverage of donald trump's hush money trial. and this is a familiar face that we are seeing back on the stand. >> and when who already testified and what's notable is also the presence of someone else inside that courtroom. >> the district attorney, alvin bragg, he has not made many appearances inside the courtroom, only a handful. and since this trial has started, now we're on day four, day 15, right. polo bridge or we'd say 40. have we lost track? i think i'm sorry. i live here now. i live here now. so what what's in the data so this is, georgia longstreet. >> she's already been told to stay ahead previously. but why is it why are they bringing her back? and also what's the significance of alvin bragg being back in the courtroom for this because he's not always in the courtroom. know the last time we saw him, actually, georgia and one other da employee refused to testify and he showed up to support them now that other employee ended up testifying, she got kicked to the next day, but he's

there to show support because she's only on the stand because the defense refuses to stipulate to what she's going to testify to. she previously took the stand which means they won't just agree to tweak tweets. >> blue on this day. and that's their strategy. they want to bog the jury down and this what we can confirm ourselves is at times very dd is testimony about metadata about your phone logs, and now she's talking this time about text messages and calls. last time she testified she testified about social media posts to get those into evidence. this time the prosecutor said last week that they were going to bring her back for a little bit of additional testimony but it is the first repeat witness that we've seen. i'd expect her to be brief, but she's only up there because the defense refuses to just agree and let this move in and her job is basically to just go through all of trump's social media posts that they are sharing that they want to bring in as evidence to show so to the jury. exactly. and they could bring in other social media posts to potentially some from michael cohen. but that has been her role so far is just to

say, yes, i reviewed these. i can verify and bring them into evidence. so for example, when michael cohen testifies, they can ask him about them. >> well, and donald trump initially said he would testify. i don't think anyone who is covered him, christian holds is taken as seriously, are believed he would he has now since started waffling on this, but this is a way for jurors to see trump in his own words. i mean, they have made a tactic of this. they've been the prosecution and of using trump's words against him here, whether it's books that he wrote decades ago or recent tweets and posts it he is out including clips from campaign rallies. >> well, that's true what you saw here last time that she was on the stand was that they were trying to interrupt a bunch of tweets now you're seeing it again, the defense really objecting to any of these being inferred into evidence. >> one of the big ones was a truth social post that where he essentially says, if you come after me, i'll go after, you know, at the time he was in a different court cases is about jack smith actually filed a motion saying this was a threat to witnesses the campaign scrambled saying this wasn't about this at all. this was about something related to the

campaign politics. now that was entered into evidence here as well, unclear what they're gonna do with it. but obviously, there is an illusion that it's possibly connected to witnesses. >> the other part of this, of course, being what you mentioned, which is donald trumhiactually testifying or not. he loves to play the game with the media will i won't die testify because he knows that if he says he might, but that becomes fodder that everyone starts talking about whether or not donald trump is going to take the stand. >> but the reality is, there is no one who wants donald trump to take the stand, including donald trump. he doesn't want to ask answer any questions about what happened with stormy daniels i'll see you guys cross-examine exactly. and so they essentially allowed i mean, you know, more about this, but they said that it was fair game if you decided to take the stand on almost anything that he had been in court for legally across the spectrum, including e. jean carroll none of the things that they want brought up in this if he takes the stand, just testimony will decide this case. >> now, it is his call to make

his lawyers will defer to him. >> he gets to have the final word. i'm told that the results of the sandoval hearings. so what does and does not get to come in? what past bad acts, including aging carroll, results of that apparently didn't have a huge impact on his, his assessment here. it's still unclear, i think is legal team which only prefer that he not take the stand. any lawyer in america would prefer that they're glidant, not take the stand in this situation. but if you does, it, would it would decide the case. what comes out of his mouth, what and right now, they're showing tweets that can from april 2018, i believe it was april 9 that michael cohen's house his apartment, his office were rated. these are tweets from donald trump about michael cohen. i'm not sure which one this is, but it may be the one where donald trump is saying, initially when everything was happening to michael cohen, donald trump was saying, oh, i'm not worried about him. never flip. michael coe has been very loyal to meet and to see the total one at that that relationship has done. it is so remarkable donald trump and michael cohen said it's easy now to see where their relationship is totally deteriorated but

michael cohen would do essentially anything for donald trump when he was running in 2016? >> yeah. and before that as well, i'm used his longtime fixer, his longtime right-hand. he was doing the dirty work that no one else wanted to do, which i think he would also agree three, two, that at least particularly now, the thing about michael cohen and the relationship with the former president. i do want to remind us remember when that office was rated. and again said michael coe never flipped, but the one thing that we all paid attention to, the fact that they were taped well, and this is the tweet that they're reading right now, which is apparently prompting laughter in the courtroom. the tweet said, if anyone is looking for a good lawyer, i would strongly suggest that you don't retain the services of michael cohen i mean, the irony that is, donald trump retained michael cohen services it's for decades and is precisely why we're sitting here outside the courthouse right now, exactly in the next tweet that they're bringing in juxtaposes. paul manafort, who of course, wanted to trial was convicted multiple times and remained loyal to trump. he was eventually pardoned, comparing him to michael cohen. trump

tweeting then i feel very badly for paul manafort and his wonderful family, quote, justice, took a 12-year-old tax case, among other things, applied tremendous pressure on him. and unlike michael cohen, he refused to quote break, make up stories in order to get a deal such respect for a brave man. so clearly about to use to show how trump treats people who are loyal to him as compared to people who are not as we know. paul manafort is now currently in talks with the campaign to do something for the convention in the summer. and tim, he did pardon now, you use exact a very long game given, but it might be up included prison time. >> yeah. yeah. well, i think you had hardening of gout. i believe if our column prison he had a rough time in prison, but yeah, he played a really long game. he got that. pardon? and now as a fixture of mar-a-lago were no italian suits and prison no peak kafka, i, think i buy their coats. >> i mean, it, is remarkable because what the prosecution clearly seems to be doing here is portraying this narrative for the jury. now to show how donald trump, because they're going to use what michael cohen has been saying, with donald

trump. i mean, because attorneys have already been quoting it, but they're also using with donald trump said about michael cohen as all of this is how happening and he began to cooperate with investigators. >> yeah, this is the pressure he's trying to apply on a potential witness. how he has tried to pressure cohen for years and years. problem is cohen has not exactly suffered in silence. and it said has repeatedly attacked and showed extraordinary animus towards the defendants, something that you're defense attorneys, i think their greatest challenge there is just calling down which examples they want to use. >> ron qb is also here with us. he's a criminal defense attorney and ron, it's great to have you back as we are looking at these tweets from michael, from donald trump about michael cohen and the very different ways that he east spoke about him saying no one should retain his legal services. that wasn't long after he said he didn't believe michael cohen would ever flip on him i wonder what you make of how, how's the defense team is sitting at that table right now, is these posts are being read aloud. how are they taking? >> they know all of this is

coming. they've seen all of this evidence before and they recognize that their biggest challenge is to impeach the credibility of michael cohen. and you might think that that's easy given the fact that michael cohen was a trial right-hand man. and now has saying all these terrible things about and then has all kinds of motivation to lie. but the truth is, michael cohen it's been sort of a so attacked by other witnesses already if he walks into the courtroom and isn't foaming at the mouth and has to be hit with a rolled-up newspaper. the jury is going to say doesn't seem so bad. and let's face it, the prosecution is constantly calling. it almost always has to call highly compromised witnesses mafia killers, father raping baby killing terrorists on the witness stand. and they were ally on other evidence of

videos in email, other witnesses took the story those witnesses tell. and in comparison, michael cohen i'm just isn't that bad of a guide. he's playing the role that we love in america. he's playing the role of the repentance center. yes, i did all of these horrible things, but i did them for donald trump and now i am embracing my redemption with the same passionate intensity in width hi embraced my sense. and at the end, the prosecution is just going to get summation and say yep well i just want to read you an update because they're the reading all of these posts that they clearly plan to use and believer helpful to their case right down real time. >> and another is from may 2018. it's a little over a month after michael cohen was clearly in serious legal trouble after he had had his tome and his office rated by the federal government and trump posted mr. cohen and

attorney clearly tried to distance himself from them, saying he received a monthly retainer, not from the campaign payne and having nothing to do with the campaign from which he entered into their reimbursement, a private contract between two parties. note is a non-disclosure agreements. trump is saying that these are commonplace agreements that that happened, but trump clearly was weighing in on this and statements that we now know aren't true that trump was involved in that they did know about the reimbursements to michael cohen and obviously is a defense attorney you to be prepared for that. how do you make that argument to the jury when you're client's words are printed out right there on the screen in front of them with great difficulty verging on in possibility. >> so what you're going to expect is that they attack michael cohen's credibility which is an easy thing to do but if you're going to win, you also have to attack the underlying story. you have to

show why the account the key is giving doesn't make sense, isn't corroborated and is totally made up, and that they are simply not going to be able to do the prosecution i spent a lot of time putting this case together tightening the noose of nexus between trump and michael cohen. and it is all gone in as the prosecution plant that is there has been no breakdown of witnesses sudden hurdles speed bumps, or the like, up. yeah. look, you don't know how it's going? man, but the prosecution's case has gone in remarkably smoothly and one thing that i think that's important to notice, obviously prosecutors have met with all of their witnesses that they are using here. >> and as stormy daniels was testifying yesterday, there are testifying the other day there was an argument over what she said. the prosecution made this argument to the judge that will the defense had access to what she was going to say because after we interviewed her back in december, they had this

transcript of her interview. is it a similar situation? would you assume with michael cohen that they have an idea of what prosecutors have asked him before when they i've interviewed him and what he's going to be asked about on the stand starting on monday well, thanks to what we call in new york discovery reform in 2020, where we stopped the process of trial by ambush. >> and now almost everything in the prosecution's possession has to be given over to the defense. conservatives didn't like that kind of appreciating it more now at this trial, the defense has everything they know what's coming and they have plenty of time to prepare nothing should be a surprise to the defense in this case. >> ron qb. thank you for that. we'll continue to see if something is a surprise to the defense once michael cohen takes the stand on monday, i should note that as we speak first, right now, are being shown trump tweets inside of

also text messages between stormy daniels. stormy daniels, and then publicist and dylan howard of the national enquirer being asked if he was working in favor of trump, he said their ceo, that's david pecker, the first witness that we saw in this case, has endorsed him, but i am not. we'll see more of these it's text messages being read to the jury right now inside pork. as you were watching cnn's special live coverage sunday on the whole story. the debate over transgender athletes i believed i needed to sacrifice being trans in order to swim. we can't neglect fairness and hopes to be inclusive. >> the whole story with anderson cooper sunday at eight we handcraft every stearns and foster using the finest materials like indulgent memory foam and ultra conforming inner springs for a beautiful mattress and indescribable comfort, save up to $800 on

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pretty litter.com today i'm under roger and capitol hill. this is cnn michael cohen, paul manafort, rudy giuliani, all subjects have donald trump tweets, all messages, read out inside court moments ago. welcome back to cnn special live coverage. jump dana bash right now prosecutors are again asking questions to georgia longstreet, the first repeat witness so far in the trump hush money trial. >> why she's there, she's reading text messages about stormy daniels, texts sent between her then lawyer and a tabloid editor and kasie hunt it's interesting. >> we were just talking during the break about this tactic to use a georgia longstreet who was a paralegal paralegal rather in the da's office, just almost as a narrator, right? >> because she's just the one who had the unfortunate task of having to read piles and piles like the house clerk of

correspondence let's talk. about why this is so important. the content of what you said. sure. so she's talking here about what trump did or didn't say and did or didn't do. for stormy daniels in this period of time and she also was talking to him about whether or not she was ready to tell her story, which of course are two kind of key narrative threads here. and now we see more text showing that she followed up several times asking about ami using the daniels story. and again, she ends up getting paid to stay quiet, right. as opposed to telling her story here. but i am interested to know where there have been going with all of these other tweets that they are putting into evidence some of these things where donald trump is attacking michael cohen on the one hand, his lawyer, but defending paul manafort, who he would eventually go on to pardon for crimes that manafort

committed that we're as part of all of this because i have not seen the connective tissue on that yet. i don't know if you have a i've been wondering the same thing. >> i mean, yesterday they read a couple of excerpts from trump's books where he says, i value you loyalty and anyone who turns on me, i turn on them. >> okay. i mean, if you're trying to show he's a jerk fine. but what what's the relevance of that in any negative post about michael cohen? i guess i can see the relevance there that there's bad blood between two of them, but it seems like there's a comparison going on though, and i'm really interested in the man four. i don't get at all. i don't who cares about that? >> i don't get the manafort thing. they're going to come into evidence one way or another. and it's in the prosecution's evidence interest. i think to put them on the record themselves to frame how they want to frame the text messages, how they, in their own way. so to not so as to not give the defense and opportunity to do it yeah i don't get them. >> i'll tell you. i don't understand the manafort thing and i mean, i think there's going to be the development of the bad blood theory between cohen and trump. i mean, ad nauseum, that's right. so i

mean, i don't really appear. okay. so you're a prosecutor? >> where do you think they're taking this right now with getting these text messages on the record. i mean, i think that's right. i think by and large they'd rather get it in themselves. they'd rather lay it out, had to be able to tell their story about it. they know it's likely to come in. none of this evidence is coming in as a surprise to anybody, right? i mean, they've exchanged pretrial discovery. they all know what's there but it's the jury, but that's right. and so they're each now decide in which piece they will want to play. and maybe you want to play it in your case in chief so that you can talk about it as opposed to having your witness question about it. these are things that will go into the strategy the cohen staff, i mean, i think probably putting in the tweet or whatever the trump was talking about cohen i mean, that's that's just sort of anticipatory. i'd like look, don't be surprised next week when his lawyers get on his case, this is going to be this is an expected that he didn't like him anyway. so that's how six it's like putting the apoe dump out yourself. that's exactly that is exactly what

they've known, didn't are both and a witness any case is not perfect, right a criminal case, particularly usually your witnesses are not perfect. so i think i'm in this case, michael cohen and donald trump have a ton of bad blood. the jury likely it's not up to speed on all of the bad blood. i mean, they don't know that he wasn't a good lawyer. is donald trump said, it is one of the reasons he didn't bring him into the white house because he was not seen as someone who was up just speed to be the white house counsel, for example, i mean, he was in new york lawyer who handled this kind of business. so i think it just is laying that in a relief here. so just an interesting timeline. all these tweets and types are, yeah, definitely i want to bring in criminal defense attorney bill brennan, he previously represented donald trump depth payroll corp. thanks so much for being here. good to see you again what do you think the importance of what we have seen so far this morning, we were talking about the fact that as we speak, you have a paralegal up reading into evidence some past tweets and text messages,

i should say about michael cohen, about paul manafort and others. but talk about that and also about madeleine westerhout. testimony this morning, what do you think is the most crucial that we've seen so far today? >> well, good morning, dan. i agree largely with the panel. >> it's a good strategy. >> if you have damaging potential cross to get it out on direct, but this week has seen this trial devolve into a sideshow. i mean this witness, stormy daniels, went off the rails and frankly, i don't know that she did it on her own. the prosecutor, susan hoffinger with impunity flouted judge merchan's order he gave a crisp, clean order before she took the stand. she can say they had sex and that's it. and how often? you're just ran wild. >> why did correctly? >> because i've because i think that's what she does. she

overplayed her hand. she does whatever she wants and i'm shocked at, judge, were can let her do that because i have a lot of respect for him. i tried that last case in front of them and it really the mistrial, although i didn't expect it to be granted, the mistrial really was very close and who knows if this doesn't go the defendants way on appeal who knows what will happen. and now she's off the stand and she's on social media taunting the defendant. there's another grounds for a mistrial. i mean every defendant in our country who is charged with a crime has the right not to testify, and the judge will charge the jury at some point if a defendant doesn't testify, no adverse inference can be drawn. she's on social media saying real man get on the stand and testify. it's a disgrace. and this really is he's going to play. >> i thought i can my hands of the defense we haven't heard anything about the ultimate crime here campaign fraud. so i just want to let you know that what we're doing right now is

showing our viewers at the tweet that you were referring to and you see it right there? real men respond to testimony by being sworn in and taking the stand and court. oh, wait. never mind. i mean, just on just disgrace. this is this is an intimidated witness. she's playing to the crowd. she loves every minute of this, this bans on trial, forget that he was the president united states this is a citizen of our country. could be you, it could be me, it could be anybody watching this broadcast. it's a disgrace that this witness is out there on social media stick a finger in a defendant die, and it's a ground for a mistrial. i'd asked the judge how about every were polled? did they see this tweet and did it affect them? >> okay. so that was my question, which is about whether or not i mean, you certainly can make the argument as you are, that this kind of behavior is untoward. but as it plays into the actual case and the ground rules of that, not only this judge, but that every

case like this should follow. how is this grounds for a mistrial know having sex with a guy you met a couple of hours earlier in a lake tahoe lounge is on toward this is mistrial material. >> this is this is having testified as a prosecution witness, she should have went back and in somewhere and kept her mouth shut. now, she's she knows the defendant is gagged, and now she's sticking a finger in his eye by putting these post out. and it really look jurors aren't supposed to look at social media, they do these jurors should be pulled individually, each and every one of them. the 12 and the for the older and it's did you say anything and could it affect your decision i should add that your former client the former president denies that there was that encounter that you just talked about and very colorful terms so we should put that out

there on the record that that is the case. >> thank you so much for joining us this morning. i appreciate it thank you, dana just i get that. he says that having sex is i'm toward but i just think it's worth noting that like being married and will hold on, inviting someone into the hotel. right? what's going on? i was i was gonna get no, it's okay. i was going to get to them. i was i was gonna get to that with the panel here is clear. i have several questions because you brought that up. let's start there. >> okay. >> i just, you know, you can characterize it that way. i just think that it's clear that we're in a different phase of conversation about some of this stuff with women and sure. you could say it's untoward referred to. do that, but is it more on toward of her to do that or is it more on toward of the powerful man who is married twice, almost three times her age, twice her age that the time it takes off her clothes, takes off his clothes worried about which is more on toward i'm sorry, i just i think it's ironic that we're we're sitting here talking about this mean tweet that

stormy daniels sent out when who is the person who talks about and does this mean tweets every day, all day about everybody, right? >> he's like launching his pearls about this one tweet. >> and i can access as you worked as a prosecutor, what about the allegation before he got to the whole but you just talked about about the fact that the prosecutor went over the line with the questions to stormy daniels with the details of their alleged encounter over the the the rules that the judge put in place and whether that's grounds for a mistrial. if you read the transcripts about what the judge said, you could do and not do what they agreed to was they weren't going to have graphic descriptions of genitalia. that's what the prosecutor said. they had this whole argument about who can say what and the thing is and what the judge found was that the defense opened the door in their opening by saying it

never happened, that she's lying at anytime her credibility or any witnesses credibility is called into question about something you're allowed to ask details and you're allowed to challenge that. they opened the door to it. so i think he's not exactly right they crossed over a line and the judge didn't grant that. it's trial, but thank mr. brennan is still with us two things. first, i would i would love for you to talk about again, just for the record your client your former client, i should say, has said that this encounter didn't happen but what you said about it being untoward for a her to have sex allegedly with donald trump casey's point about what about his responsibility with a wife and a boy jg, i agree with you. if it happened, there are spreading there's plenty basically said we'd have all mental trial through the court of moral police here you seem to just acknowledge that it did

happen though and that it was on toward in criticizing stormy daniels. look, i take your point about the tweet in this case. >> he no, no, no, no, no, no how can i acknowledge i wasn't there. >> she said it happened she said it happened based on her sworn testimony. i made that comment. i don't know what happened okay. >> okay. hold on. i just want to ask you to follow up on what karen just said a little bit more mundane, but very important when it comes to the other idea that you brought up, that there could be a mistrial is certainly believe there's grounds for a mistrial because of the way that the prosecution asked questions outside the parameters of what the judge laid down when it comes to that alleged encounter, karen saying that's not right because of the fact that this whole situation was already out there well, i respectfully disagree with karen i think what you just said is that the prosecution was allowed to go

into this area of questioning because the defense opened the door and it's opening. >> i wasn't in the courtroom from but we were all together that day. and most of the members of the panel, myself my understanding was the judge were can in a pretrial ruling, a pre pre daily ruling before the jury came out, said, she can say they had sex, and that's it. so that's what the rule was for that day and harvard, completely violated that if that was the ruling but you can't have a witness on direct on the stand and say, well, the opening open the door in the middle of that, judge merchan said, they can say they have sex and that's it. >> i think one other issue here though, is that the defense attorney did not object to any of the specific questions that they then later asked for a mistrial. and i think that's one of the other issues with it that i'm glad you i'm glad you brought that up because i do have a thought on that. >> when and qarrah, those and

the lawyers on the platform who tried cases? >> no they they objected. >> and i tried for two months with this prosecution team. most of it and judge, were can you have to remember that you're trying to that jury, if you object to every single question objection. objection. objection. it makes you look worried and week it's a fine line between when you object to when you know, they objected a lot and i'm surprised that judge merchan on his own, didn't just call them up to the standard, say, hey, this is, this is not what i ruled. so you can't point the finger at the defense when you're the judge and you've made a ruling and it's being ignored my opinion okay. >> thank you for joining us and engaging with all of us here and appreciate it. and i just want to touch back on what's happening as we speak in the courtroom, the paralegal who we told you about georgia longstreet, who is effectively

acting as a narrator to get information into the record is going going over text messages, including one showing daniels publicist telling the national enquirer editor, quote, we're not we're not going the trump deal, probably a typo. i think that yeah, we're not doing or we're not yet, but it said going. so the texts being shown to the jury provide first-hand information from rodriguez and howard. rodriguez being a representative of stormy daniels, howard being an editor at the enquirer at the time about what was going on in 2016 without their direct testimony. so what this is doing is laying out for the jury without calling these people is witnesses. >> the communications that were happening and just to refresh people as to the who's who on the one side on behalf of the trump organization, donald trump, maybe the trump campaign, you have michael cohen represent negotiating along with dylan howard, who is over ami over at the national enquirer. and they're sort of working with stormy's people, which is this, ms rodriguez who was her pr agent, enter lawyer,

keith davidson. and this is the text of that back-and-forth texts between the parties. and there was a lot of stops and starts. it looked like the deal was on, then it was off that it was on again, maybe she was going to sell her story to another media outlet. ultimately, of course, for me, daniel's ends up entering into the non-disclosure agreement, the hush money agreement with michael cohen, and hence the trump people. they enquirer backs out all of this is setting the stage for michael cohen because michael cohen is going to tell the jury about these negotiations. and prosecutors are going to back him up by saying, and here's the text that proves exactly what you just told us. >> agreed your honor, i read the question. so funny because i saw michael nodding and mike sorry about my car. >> yeah. >> let me say a couple of days as to mr. brennan's right. so okay. i mean, i do think a prosecutor owes a duty not to cross a line. i mean, i think that the prosecutor's duty just like, uh, judges name this is a criminal case system, protect the rights of a defendant, even

though sometimes that may not be the most strategic are sexy thing to help your case so getting into extraneous information is trying to get there and they're saying, well, but they didn't object to it to me is pretty weak because main frankly, your job as a prosecutor two is to both protect the system, protects the case, and protect the defendants constitutional rights because they do have a right. and what i find objectionable about the tweet from his daniels is it essentially calls into question a defendant's right to not testify. and like it or not, she's seen as a witness belonging to the state in this case. i mean, she's there witness. just like you may have a victim to a crime. they are there the they're seen as being attached to the state. and so it's almost like this the witness for the state or who is identified as a friend of the state is now challenging him testify, and i think that's a problem. >> and i just want to before you jump in just again, just touch on what's actually happening right now the paralegal is still in the chair now, the former president's defense team is cross-examining

her asking about how she reviews social media. the prosecution is now objecting, and that was overruled. the question was about whether or not she reviewed michael cohen's tiktok recently, which is a way to get in there that michael cohen is being quite aggressive, coordinate gram stain, but his his hatred for donald trump? yes. that'll be interesting next week, i was just gonna say you bring up a really, really good point on that and i do think that if they wanted to, the defense could ask that the jury be polled as to whether any of them saw, that tweet that stormy daniels. i want you to weigh in, but let's do it after after the break, everybody stick around today. a trailer. the prosecution getting bad backs out of the way. as we now expect michael cohen testify on monday, you are watching and then special live coverage every weekday morning thanks. >> cnn's five things has what you need to get going with your

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to or if ibd symptoms develop worsen it's good to be moving. >> watch me, move. >> look and feel better. ask you rheumatologists of alco syntax close captioning brought to you by meso book.com our firm only represents mesothelioma victims and their famililies. if you or a loved oe who has been diagnos with ms call us now trump tweets child checks and trump phone records, prosecutors are running through a litany of documents and the courthouse hi me right now as georgia longstreet, a paralegal has just stepped down from the witness dad, she has been tasked your viewing social media posts for omnivore president quite an undertaking. >> i think we can all note that i'm kaitlan collins in new york. you are watching students special live coverage. a new witness has just been sworn in

jayden der schneider right now one of the prosecutors is leading the direct examination as all of these questions are coming to a head here looking at these documents, all is that courtroom prepares for what a guarantees to be blockbuster testimony from michael cohen on monday. cnn's paula reid and kristen holmes are here outside of the courthouse with me. and what they are running through all right, now reports on michael cohen's phone. so as phones were seized, when the fbi went into his house, his office, his apartment back in an april 2018. >> but what's interesting about what they were just doing is looking through these texts, messages between a national enquirer essentially the person in charge of that show enquirer and stormy daniels is publicist and they were arguing about whether or not, again, also is ultimately going to get paid by michael cohen and she was starting to walk to go to the daily mail with her story because michael cohen, who is dragging his feet in those days before the election as he was trying to get the money together to pay her yeah. gina

rodriguez is her name and she's got a character who's come up really from the first day of trial, we are not expected to hear directly from horse a text messages like this. that's how they're the only way the jury is really going to hear who role in all of this. it shows that the pressure that they were trying to supply on trump and his associates to get money for stormy daniels same with dylan howard, not expected to hear from him, although we did hear from david pecker hearing this exchange about all of these efforts it's to get money for her again, that speaks to what happened in october 2016, and they the reason that she eventually received this hundred and $30,000 and it really seems like they are setting themselves up for michael cohen to basically have things to backup what he is going to testify too. >> well, and i think that they have to because they know exactly what the defense is going to do. i mean, michael cohen is a known liar, so they're going to have to paint it as somebody who is backed up by the facts as you noted, these call logs, these various text messages, different witnesses saying he was in the same place at the same time

because the defense is going to try to tear him my part on the stand. they're going to go after his whole personality and one of the things that we just saw, like just a taste of in the cross-examination of the last witness was i'm trying to talk about michael cohen, social media that is going to play a big part in cross-examination we know that michael cohen has been attacking donald trump on social media, on tiktok. they're going to bring all of that. i mean, not to mention the fact that he has a book called revenge that's also going to come into play. >> yeah, a very multimedia witness appearance, more so than any of the other witnesses. we've seen. we're going to hear from the podcast like this. the portions of his book. and i think we're going to see a lot of his social media, especially that tiktok where you're taxing only trump, but someone trump's lawyers as well. >> but how does michael cohen sorry about that. but how does michael cohen trashing? trump? >> and what he's been saying? obviously, you know, they've had a complete break in their relationship. he says things then. >> you don't even want to repeat on air. >> but but how does that take away from the ultimately what they're arguing here, which is that michael cohen and donald trump, or could we're

constructed this scheme to keep stormy daniels quiet? she didn't get paid was through michael cohen drawing down a home equity line of credit. it goes to credibility. do you believe what this man says? now as many guests have suggested we often as lawyers, prosecutors, you often put on people who are problematic, who have a rap sheet who had previous convictions. that's not unusual in criminal prosecutions what's is a little unusual here is you have someone who for years now has made a living, certainly a profit off of just relying but let's attacking the defendant chose so much animus towards trump. that some jurors could ask do i believe him? could he be blinded by hatred and either mis-remembering or misrepresenting what happened. it's unusual. i've never seen any like this where someone is made basically a career off of attacking the defendant that they now need to testify against. and the problem for prosecutors is cohen is really going to make or break this case because he is the only direct link that they can provide between this alleged

conspiracy and the defendant? >> and how was trump's world and preparing for this? i mean, we don't have the legal team is preparing for this. obviously, they've known for months michael cohen, who was going to be the star witness of this, if not for over a year since trump was indicted. >> but politically, i mean, his campaign advisers inside the courtroom right now, susie, why his campaign manager, susie wiles is inside the courtroom right now. >> they've had other campaign aides and they're trump's son, the texas attorney general, light ally of his what are they planning? kristin publicly for what that's gonna look like when michael cohen is on this you should expect to see trump surrogates flooding the airway if they're going to be relentless when it comes to michael cohen, remember to keep in mind, donald trump is the only one under a gag order. none of these it's other people are under a gag order. they are going to be repeating over and over again that this is a lie. who michael cohen is saying that he has an ax to grind, that he can't be trusted and it's not just going to be on television that's where you're probably going to see the lawmakers. those people may be vying for a spot at the top of the ticket, but you're also going to see this on social

media. the laura lumera of the world, the people who have millions of followers who will do anything to protect former president and donald trump. they are going to be going after the credibility of michael cohen and just to note what polo was saying about questioning the credibility we really saw that a little tip of that with stormy daniels, i'm trying to say that the only reason that she was out there selling her story was because she makes money off of this sorry that it's helpful for her to attack donald trump because then she makes more money. i think, take that and put it on steroids and then you'll have michael cohen blend some of the people who've been defending donald trump. i mean, it's been a lot of silence from his family. his two adult sons have been tweeting about it. eric trump's the only one who's actually been inside the courtroom he's in there are two or three times. we haven't seen donald trump jr. ever come to court. obviously, we haven't heard a lot from ivanka as she is a distanced herself from that entire orbit ever since they left the white house? >> yeah. and i think that you probably won't see ivanka trump in the courtroom. likely

not. don junior, possibly. >> he would stop by me. he does his show where he focuses a lot on this and talking to trump allies, boosting up his father, but doesn't actually go to quit, doesn't actually go to court to sit there during the day. i will say one of the things that we have heard from inside of trump its orbit is that you're starting to see more people offer to come sit in court for him. and this is because donald trump himself has complained to that people protesters on his behalf they want to show that they're there to have as back we david mcintosh was there sitting in the courtroom as mentioned, the texas attorney general, all people who won to have donald trump as an ally, particularly if donald trump is elected in the fall. >> yeah and trump walks in the courtroom. i was in there yesterday in the front row. he walks in, he goes the defense table and he scans the room to see who's in there because i mean, as much as he criticizes the media, he often seeks out to see who's there. and it kind of speaks to also him complaining about not having more supporters just today. he was complaining about how locked down the courthouses, even though anyone from the

public can go inside that courtroom, as long as they get here early enough and wait in line anyone can go in the park across the street, but i mean, we've seen five to ten people may be out there. i mean, it's not really. anyone know nothing compared to certainly what we see in florida when he has hearings, efforts, federal case and mar-a-lago classified documents, case or elsewhere, just not a big presence here, but i do think it's surprising that none of his five adult children, while barrenness is wrapping up high school, the other four that we don't see them, there's plenty of time. you can stop you just stop in for a little while. i don't think it's surprising that we don't see the former first lady, but with his children, that is something that the jury takes note of. they're looking to see if you have family support remember, the heart of their defense is they're arguing that everything he did around this hush money payment was to protect his family and it would add, i think some heft to that if they were to show up. again, he has five children all now, i'll legal adults. it is surprising that the only one we've seen as eric and it's only been a few days and shown up? >> yeah. >> yeah. it will say one other thing. i mean, it thought what

was really interesting is the fact that donald trump was so upset that he didn't have the support and the courtroom that is team actually started planning these events around new york to show that he had support in the city kind of create an alternate reality where you have him showing up at a construction site with union members that they spoken to before at a harlem bodega, the crowds are cheering everyone saying we love donald trump. i mean, this is a direct contrast to what as you guys said, we see in front of the courthouse, which is five people, sometimes one person with a flag, and dana, obviously, we are watching the testimony. >> it is ongoing inside this courtroom right now. it's safe to say it's a stark one ad from stormy daniels she was on the stand just 48 hours ago right now, a paralegal is explaining how he prepared a report and normalize the time zones from different carriers. >> same same exactly the same. caitlin. thank you so much. brian lanza is joining us here in washington. he's a former deputy communications director for donald trump's 2016 campaign. let's just pick up the conversation with where they left it off. but brian, what about the fact that his

adult children except for a few times eric trump being there, have not been there. and the point that you heard paulo, who is an attorney, make and i think you all made it earlier as well that the jury notice is that especially when you're arguing i did this for my family yeah. >> listen, i think he would want more, but it truly is a circus referral. thank you for having a truly is a circus by having the rest in my view, by having the rest of the family there, you must validate what's taking place that they have to come prop him up, show support because of these horrible things that are happening, sort of validate the performance similar to when you saw bill clinton walk, walk through the, through the front lawn or the front lawn of the white house. the distance with his wife, there were still together after that scandal and that had conservatives all a wound up. i think they sort of looked at that and said, it's not worth the headache. now, you have to look at the example of the jury sees and that's certainly a perspective that they had to consider. but at the end of the day, just they probably sayyed website and the defendant ends up looking lonely and on an island by himself, but having family and

the court can backfire one because things are so personal and so intense in the courtroom. room and often, quite frankly, you'll hear donald trump got scolded a little bit for mumbling and muttering and swearing under his breath. you ever see a wife or a kitten or courtroom doesn't like something. they here doesn't like seeing their dad being spoken about or insulted or whatever else and they will often have outburst need to be scolded by a judge. >> well, and we will not contain himself, but i can tell you this from 2016, i mean, because we constantly try to rein in here who would not constrain themselves in that courtroom and rightfully so his dad's been attacked. >> yeah. it doesn't and it's not it's often not humanizing for the defendant. it's actually causing the circus. the brian was talking about that really might turn the jurors off. so yeah. i mean, again, there's no rules to it. breaks one way is sometimes different ways the other times, but as a general matter, it could be really, it is not surprising. i'm sorry, i didn't say it is not surprising at all to anybody who has covered the trump campaign for a nanosecond. but melania trump is not there i'm

just thinking you talk about how things have changed the whole television show, the good wife was based on what happened with eliot spitzer and with his wife who was standing by her man. even though she just wanted to run away first, do something to him and then run away and you do see that in some cases these days, but it's not expected and it's certainly not surprising that melania trump is not there, right? and it wasn't at the time. i mean, we're thinking back to 2016, this period. it was at least three or four months, i think before melania trump moved to the white house in the wake of the access hollywood tape, in the wake of all the apps. so this is deeply personal that only they know the so of course she's not going to be there. and look, this is business. >> we talked about the courtroom being the campaign you see susie wiles there. >> she is someone who is in charge of his campaign. she's a comforting, a role to him. we saw rick scott, their other allies there so this is not necessarily about the family,

this is about his reelection campaign. so i'm not really that surprised to see no family members, their we'll see you next week with michael cohen because he is central play was a part of the family originally back in the old trump days, a hired part. >> well, you don't agree with that team like, what are their and he called me when i was at the new york times when trump was thinking about running in 2012, is it mr. trump very upset that your story is not on the front page of the new york times. >> he was his guy who called back for years and years before, for sure, ran. he was his guy. yeah, there's only guy really i mean, i remember getting on the phone with him when they were when trump was actually serious about getting into 2016 and there was this avalanche of media coverage that said, never going to happen, never going to happen. and it was him and another aid behind the scenes who were saying no, absolutely not. and look where we are. i didn't mean to cut you off. >> no, listen, i i've been around the family since 2016 and michael cohen is not family, you know, none of us are. there should be no

illusion. i think people, brad par skill has learned that model the very much are a family with themselves and people from the outside circle don't get in. if trump is chess player michael cohen was upon in the chest match. >> well, i mean certainly michael cohen realized that i think after he was cast out of the circle, like anybody spending time 15 minutes or 20 minutes round, the family would know that. i just want to i just want to touch on what's happening in the courtroom. >> again, it is not the most tonight, if not show stopping i mean to say that but it could be important again, what they're doing is using an paralegal, a different one this time, jayden jermell schneider to get information to get documents into the record. and what that paralegal is talking about are a phone records between michael cohen and allen weisselberg during his testimony on john michael kohler. >> we'll be talking about. i had a phone call with allen weisselberg. i've talked with him often. i had a phone call, but donald trump and prosecution now we'll be able to say, hey, look everyone, remember on friday we showed you these records showing that those calls occurred. it's all

part of again, this is sort of been the overarching prosecution theme since day one, which is, let's build up as much support, as much cushioning as much corroboration is the lawyer word for this, for michael cohen as humanly possible. and if you're the prosecutor you want to be able to tell the jury ultimately, folks, you don't have to take michael cohen at his word on anything that matters here because everything he says is backed up by a document or some other witnesses. now, this is not quite true. there are key points that they will need to trust michael cohen on. but the more you can prop them up, the better elie. this is a really important point that just came in. so if you apparently legal said he identified an incoming call, the cohen's phone at the same time that his recording ended. go ahead. a key piece of evidence is this recording that michael cohen has between him and donald trump. and it cuts off at the end michael cohen is going to testify, apparently that it's because he had an incoming call at the time, not that he was cutting it off because donald trump said

something different or or anything like that. and corroborates that yeah. i mean i do think just to kinda to go back to what we were talking about earlier in terms of elliot your point is fascinating. obviously someone who's never prosecuted anything about the family being in the case, but i guess i keep coming back to what they have to do to prove this crime, which is that they have to show that it was about the election, right and when you have all these political figures, right, coming through the courtroom, it doesn't send the message that this guy is always thinking about. that's interesting. >> they know who susie right? >> but that might help got what they cannot see the family because i know millennia trump is, right. sure. and i bet they know who don junior is, et cetera and again, it just it really does seem to cast donald

trump in view of this kind of man alone who tears the most about being elected more than he cares about anything else. for short of like mike showing up in court. i think there really are not going to have different story three on-sale showing up in court and there are very few people who would be generally known to, even at a scholarly new york city audience, i would like to see that showing up anywhere really come here and beyond, say you're always welcome. have a seat for your questions inside the court right now about michael cohen cell phone and phone records glean from it as we were just discussing all of this is leading to a touchdown moment. we expect on monday when cohen swears to tell the truth inside that manhattan courtroom, much more, cnn coverage ahead group of stores was the absolute peak of his celebrity in olympic heroes shocking murder trial, we learned of a much darker individual power would really happen with jesse l.

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case. it could potentially backup what we may hear from this on monday from michael cohen, but it's clearly something that trump himself is not paying very close attention to. why is it important for prosecutors to lay this down before they do bring out a witness, michael cohen on monday thanks. >> kaitlin. so this is the boring part of a trial it's all the foundational question. sometimes this is all stipulated. it's not here and it's the records. it's the documents, it's the phone calls. and that doesn't just sort of come in hi itself. there's, there is legal requirements of setting certain foundational questions before those types of documents and records can be admitted into evidence. it's tedious and boring. i'm i'm not surprised that mr. trump is not paying attention the jury is going to pay too much attention, but it

is really important and it becomes important when in a couple of ways, it's part of the story. the exhibits or what in summation, the prosecutors will stand up and show two the jury specific documents, specific records, phone records will corroborate part of michael cohen's testimony on monday. so it's really important. it's just not the most exciting testimony to come out in a trial yeah oh, i should, know the dura is due p doobie do seem to be paying closer attention. the donald trump is, we're told that they're for the most part looking at their screens, they each have basically individual tv screens in front of them. the jury box, so they can see what evidence is being discussed inside the courtroom is for the jury though. how are they going into this weekend? because they've got a few days to sit and marinate on what they heard this week. and yes, today may not be generating headlines every every 30

seconds, but the stormy daniels testimony was so much to take in over that two day period, the direct and the cross-examination as well. >> your what what do you think there's on the jury's mind as they're going into the next few days with no court yeah after after 30 years, i still don't ever go what a jury is actually thinking. it's always a bit of a crap shoot trying to read the tea leaves as we say the stormy daniels testimony was certainly interesting. i don't say that. i mean, it was it was it was a human story. it was salacious it had everything you want sex power tv, movies both deals with powerful. it was exciting for the jury. i'm sure that's going gonna be on their minds at the same time. a lot of what she said is really

irrelevant to the charges, whether they did or did not have sex doesn't really matter when you boil it down to the charges in this case. and so i'm sure there'll be thinking about that because it's an interesting story line. it's centered maddock in a way, but it isn't that important to the case. so that's an interesting sort of dichotomy between what's sort of interesting to think about what actually really matters for the criminal charge yeah and i should, note right now that emil beauvais is questioning this paralegal from the manhattan district attorney's office, the manhattan district attorney himself inside that emil bove is asking you about the tedious work that he kind of had to do and whether or not he also felt that was tedious. >> he said, honestly, i enjoyed it that prompted laughter inside the courtroom. and this is going on. what do you make of alvin bragg, his rare appearance in the courtroom, obviously, as paula reid was

reporting, he's there to support members of his team are testifying who don't often so take the witness and maybe never. but his his presence in the courtroom is notable because he's only seating sitting 20 or 30 feet away from donald trump's someone who, who has ruthlessly attacked him on social media called embraces, posted a picture of his face next to a louisville slugger that he later had to remove. >> i mean, what's that dynamic gotta be like in there? yeah. so it's always creates a bit of a stir when a district attorney comes to the courtroom itself cy vance used to come and watch trials, and of course it would make the assistant das nervous to have the da sitting there, mr. morgan thought seldom came to court he just kept kept more to his office and saw people there so when the da comes in, it is it does create a bit of a stir, a bit of an environment in the courtroom. i think it's nice

that he came to watch his paralegals testify testifying today. >> you wonder whether he'll be there on monday for the cohen's testimony? >> such a big day, it'll be interesting to see if he shows up or not as far as being there with with donald trump you know, i'm sure that he has a thick skin. it's a courtroom you see adversaries there all the time. you see people who despise each other, not to say mr. bragg necessarily despises mr. trump but the fact that he's there has more to do with the trial and his people and less to do with anything to do with his interactions with donald trump i'm coughing. >> thank you for joining us polaroid kristen holmes, also here with me as we are monitoring this and we should note this is going to be a short for day. the judge has made clear maybe the whole courtroom needs that before michael cohen is going to get on the stand on monday. but as

i think what's happening here, this is moving a lot faster than we thought initially that this is going to go even just yesterday, i believe the prosecutor prosecution himself prosecutor herself as noting that this is moving at a much faster clip. than than anyone believe this trial was going to initially yeah, this little surprising. there's also a lot of names that we thought we were here from like kellyanne conway or karen mcdougal who are not expected to be called stand at this point, michael cohen is the last mark key witness that we expect to take the stand during the prosecution's case. so yeah, this does appear to be moving pretty quickly. especially given that most of these weeks are so short, this is the first full full four-day week we've had in the last one that we'll probably have in this case, it's a right after this though. it's not just michael cohen's testimony. it will then be the defense's term two turn to present their case. do we have any idea of witnesses? they may call we do. >> we know they'll probably be short, much shorter than the prosecution. >> they're only expected to call a few witnesses. >> one we'll be in election expert. it's unclear how much of his testimony they're going

to be able to get in that is something that has been litigated. we also expect to hear from alan garten, a top official the trump organization then there's only one other witness that we believe will testify, possibly. and that is the defendants still an open question. unlikelihood. take the stand, but the defense is presentation will be a fraction. ben the prosecution's really most of their case, i would say is the cross-examination of michael cohen. >> as you noted earlier, what what his team is trying to do is they don't think they're going to be acquitted here, but they're hoping for a hung jury. they just want one juror who essentially believes there's enough reasonable doubt here but i also think what's clear from health trump speaking publicly, it'll probably speak right after they leave the courtroom here just a few moments from now. is this is just as much about the public perception as what those trends 12 jurors inside the room believe. >> yeah, exactly what he wants to win this case. and you've donald trump wants to win anything. now if you talk to anyone in his legal circle, they did not think they're going to win, as you noted at their best hope right now is

for a hung jury. they can just persuade one single juror and part of that is because they do believe the jury makeup is unfair and also they just looking at what's been presented, they don't think they're going to have a winning argument here. but i think when you were talking about the state of play in the public perception that's part part of the reason why it's been so hard for donald trump to abide by this gag order because he feels like he can't defend himself. one of the things we always talk about this effect i'm trump thinks he uses own best narrator. he thinks he's zone best defense. he thinks he should be the one up there doing the questioning. he knows what's best for him and that also goes into the the court of public opinion. one of the things he is good at is spinning a media narrative. and in this case, he's having a lot harder time because there's a gag order. >> yeah. >> he does think he's don't best attorney will see the dynamic with his legal team, especially after that scolding from the judge get late yesterday, all of this testimony is happening right now inside the courtroom length foundation from michael cohen. we have much more from inside

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hungry kids, so they can build better futures, learn more at help. no kid hungry i'm katie go lilla in washington. >> and this is cnn welcome back to cnn special live coverage. >> i'm dana bash and washington on monday, michael cohen is expected but to take the stand now after that, it's a wildcard about who goes next and how many witnesses the former president's legal team plan to put under oath?

>> and if the list includes the defendant, donald j. >> trump, our panel is back with us you were talking in the break about how you have a story on cnn dot com that i encourage everybody to look at about. not so fast. don't expect donald trump having said that, we should sort of remind our viewers that what we have seen so far in these many weeks certainly since the witnesses have come up, these are the prosecution's witnesses and the question is, who, if anyone, will, the defense bring up? yeah. so one of the big questions out there is how long how long is this all going to take? the prosecution will continue next week with michael cohen. next week is a three-day week. there's no court on wednesday. there's never caught on wednesday, and there's no court on friday hi, michael cohen will take i believe all of that three weeks and perhaps into the next week, which is also a three-day week michael cole will not be the prosecution's last witness. you don't want to end on a potentially shaky, risky note. so there will be a couple of witnesses, i think after michael cohen, then it will be up to the defense now, first of

all, no defendant ever for has to put on any case and it happens quite frequently that defense lawyers will stand up and say, we have no case, your honor that sounds what we're not presenting any witness at any witnesses. your honor, we believe the prosecution has failed to carry its burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. i do not think there's any chance donald trump takes the stand. we can talk more about why, but in short, it would be he completely self-destructive. i think it would flip any chance he has of beating this case or getting a hung jury polo reported earlier that the defense may call an election law expert, and i think what that person wants to do is show there's a lot of gray area, there's a lot of scenarios and hypotheticals where if you ask even an expert will go, well, it depends. it depends on subjective state of mind and that could cause confusion with the jury that kind of confusion you want if you're donald trump's team and they may have some other witnesses from inside the trump organization who will distance trump from the financing and accounting. i just want to quickly ask brian about that because you know how the former

president operates and can you see a world in which he acquiesces if his defense team says, we're only going to bring an election lawyer or we're not going to put up very many people and doesn't say, no, i want these people to be up there and i want them defend me. >> and here's what i want them to say. >> hey, listen, he's good, he's going to have very strong opinions of who you want on there. i'm sure the attorneys are going to have ceo strong recommendations, but i know who's going to win i mean, you have to remember his audience is definitely those jurors, but it's also what we're seeing here. the television responses and having an election lawyer complicate things. listen, i've worked in politics for 25 years election specifically. i have two different lawyers so nephi sees, i rarely get them to agree. and so you're right, it is going to confuse this and then you have to go to motive at that particular time, not motive in february and march of when he found out and said all this could cause trouble, but motive at that particular time. and that's completely reliant on michael cohen, who let's be honest, i just called it has less credibility than george santos and we all know we can't trust her we're it's onto, you know, donald trump.

>> i don't. do you see any scenario where he actually does take the stand? no. >> no. you want to make one quick? and so we're thinking about the defendant taking the stand. it's also the defendant. the defense doesn't have to put on any case at all. and more often than not, does not the jury, the judge will often and should instruct the jury that the defendant has the right, not just to not testify, but not to put on any case at all. and you should not hold that against him. that was sort of some of the problem and stormy daniels is tweet calling into question his choice maybe did not testify. yeah. and kaitlan, we know that there are people who thought that taking a longer time with stormy daniels this week when the president's de, former president's defense team got to cross-examine, might not have been the best legal strategy, but it was something that it was clear from your reporting and others that their client wanted yeah. >> they spent more time cross-examining her than they did in the direct examination.

it's just remarkable. she is the prosecution's witnesses stana of course, we are watching all this and we were hearing story daniels testimony about the paranormal. now we're hearing from a paralegal. it's like the tail, the head-spinning that is happening inside this courtroom for this jury of what they were hearing just yesterday morning to now, they're walking through these documents, these call records, but but this could be really critical for next week if michael cohen is testifying to something and a dura could say, oh yeah, i remember seeing that and the call records on, friday or i saw that that text message happened between hope hicks and whomever? >> yeah. i think this is like we said, it's gonna be very multimedia in terms of the direct and the cross you're going to see a lot of pieces of evidence. you're going to hear him in his own words on a social media account calls that he's recorded there's gonna be a ton of evidence that is going to come in. so all of the folks that we're seeing today look, this is definitely like all right, jersey, eat your vegetables. listen about mega data is not the most exciting,

but it will matter next week especially in the chaos that is michael cohen, jurors will have a chance to assess individual pieces of evidence as he testified. so this will all matter next week, even if today it's it's pretty dry let's the sense, kristen of trump's view of his legal team. >> that's always such a subjective scrutiny, just given i mean, i remember when he was being impeached and his attorneys quit two weeks before the trial actually started. i mean, it's always been the source of friction and chaos. no matter who it is that is representing him. >> yes. so i was told that essentially there are good days and bad days that donald trump gets along with his the attorneys. but there are some days that are better than others, but that according to people around him who have been through various iterations of legal teams, this is really as good as it's going to get. it particularly when it comes comes to todd blanche. now, that does not mean that donald trump doesn't go home after court. it's alone at trump tower or call people and complain about how he thinks that blanche should be more aggressive or his team should be more aggressive? but overall, he's not cursing them

out all the time. he's not saying why aren't you doing this? he does believe that this is the best team that he has right now. now, again, the caveat here is that it's donald trump and that he always believes that he is his own best defender when we've seen in court, he'll hit one of his lawyers entire slide them nodes trying to clearly go them into getting up there and they don't always listen, don't always follow that. he was nudging susan nicholas. i was watching during stormy daniels testimony to get her to stand up. an object more and i can only imagine if he was doing that with stormy daniels on the witness stand. what's gonna it's gonna look like when michael cohen is on the way in this you actually saw susan get more aggressive. i mean, part of her cross-examination became more aggressive at one point, the judgment said you have to let stormy daniels answering some of that is for the client keith thought she did a good job and he wanted her to do that pressing and then she did so i think we've talked about the dining damage within the team right now. he knows that

he's not going to fire them and get a new lawyer in the middle of all of this. but he is also happy with some of what they're doing is happy as donald trump can be when it comes to the faculty sitting one of a criminal trial, it's a challenge because this is going to be todd blanche during the cross-examination of michael cohen has been his sole focus throughout the course of this trial. and michael cohen is a smart guy. he can also be quite charming and you have to find this balance because the case actually you got succeeds or fails on this testimony was stormy daniels would get a dissent and you're like, how is this playing with a jury? but this could make or break the case for the defendant. so this is a delicate dance for todd blanche. you don't want to throw sympathy to michael cohen, who have seen when michael cohen testified in another trial, he gotten a shouting match and when civil trials with trump's lawyer. so this is going to be fascinating to watch. >> yeah, and he clearly has a lot to to say, no doubt i mean, they've been pointing to his social media what he's been saying there. this is what makes him so problematic, not just for the prosecution, but

for the for the job budge, right. he's even starting to let some of the gag order alleged violations slide, but he does see that cohen is attacking him and this is what makes him such a challenging witness. it's not just the multiple conditions fictions is the fact that he has made a career almost identity is attacking trump being an adversary to trump the defendant. and if you're the linchpin to the case this is a really problematic thing for the prosecution and a huge opportunity for the defense. >> this testimony right now about call logs, building towards that main event when michael cohen cohen does take the witness stand much more of cnn special live coverage right after a quick break the trump hush money trial gavel to gavel coverage, the weight only cnn can bring it to you. >> legal insight, expert analysis, and real-time updates live from the courtroom follow the facts, follow the testimony, follows. cnn mom jeans she has come down to you

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are firm only represents mesothelial of victims and their families. >> if you or a loved one who has been diagnosed with ms ophelie noma. call us now welcome back to cnn special live coverage testimony for the de is done there's now a back-and-forth over jury inch tractions. the prosecution says it plans to call two witnesses next week and today, the jury got a taste of what's to come on monday. we do expect michael cohen to go under oath and his testimony expected to feature that phone call between the fixer and the former president of the united states among many other things. thanks everybody for being here. so let me just ask because the the testimony is done but they're still in and they're haggling over some questions about well, tell me what they're haggling over right now. white matters. >> so right now they're doing some scheduling questions.

they're saying who's going to be called in the prosecution is saying they might be done next week and what their mean by that is they don't know how long michael cohen's going to go on cross, but they're going to be done next week with their witnesses and it looks like they just have two people left. one short witness and then michael cohen and he's obviously the big the big the big witness. their now chris conroy, who was another prosecutor, says the prosecution wants to submit weisselberg's severance agreement into evidence. the defense objects. these are just these are things that they're arguing over housekeeping, things that people that the prosecution and the defense have asked, can we put this in? we not put that in. these are the types of things they do when the jury's not in the room and when the jury is excused, when the jury is there president, the judge is very mindful of their time and is going to only be doing witnesses and things like that. another severance agreement are reporting from the room that is under discussion is between weisselberg. >> explain why i think it's relevant, because once the work is not going to be called as a witness he's in jail. was in

prison. what you can bring people over from prison, but he would take the fifth, he's already been convicted of perjury. neither side is going to call him. that usually works to the disadvantage of prosecutors because defense lawyers will stand up and say, folks, allen weisselberg is a crucial player here. they have the burden of proof. >> they didn't call them. you can hold that against him and i think what the prosecutors want to do is be able to explain why he was given this. i think it's $2 million severance. you say yeah, i got there. any any broadcast news references that i that i can get is an uncalled witness. a government witness, beauvais says of weisselberg saying the prosecution's theory is that he conspired with cohen beauvais, quote, mr. weisselberg's absence from this trial is a very common, so exactly. so the defense is going to have a field day with this. they're going to say no weisselberg crucial player. they didn't call them prosecutors want to be able to say, but here's why. and one of the things by showing the severance agreement, they want to say essentially the trump oregon donald trump have paid this guy a huge amount of money is severance and that's why he remains loyal to them and that sort of ways into the decision

not to call them one other thing to note is ely's right. >> you don't the defense doesn't have to put on any witnesses. they don't have to cross-examine witnesses. they don't have to open. they don't have to do anything. and it's always the prosecution's burden. however, if they choose to put on a defense and they choose to put on witnesses, the prosecution can make the argument. they chose not to call out and weisselberg and you can hold that against them, mr. weisselberg is in prison right now and not available to anyone. beauvais says, as they haggle over this jeff, i want to ask that question, how's it playing in peoria because you have been on the road, you have talked to voters and it is not to diminish the importance of what is happening in the minute by minute case. here but the ultimate question and we definitely don't know the answer to this because we don't know how this case is going to end up. but just in terms of the voters, right now how are they taking this inner?

are they? i would say no, the voters that i was talking to this week out in wisconsin, of course, it's a pivotal state that's where the former president was last week, president biden was this week are largely not paying attention to it. and any republican i a talk to, not interested in it. they believe that this is old news and he democrat, they're happy to see him as a dependent. so the bottom line is we still, this is unsatisfying, but we still do not know the political fallout from this case. i will have to wait and see, i think but as we end this week, a very we've talked about a personal this trial is and seeing stormy daniels on the witness stand. the former president has a chance to rebut some of this himself at a rally tomorrow night in new jersey we'll see if he does that. of course, stormy daniel's was tweeting this morning. we'll see if he does that, but still now the politics of this are uncertain. if sort of changing, right and quick final word, listen, i think the politics are being shaped by the coverage. i mean,

that's the one thing that president trump understands better than anybody else's why you see him nudging his attorney to speak up so that we're talking about reporting and the coverage hasn't been great for the prosecution. the first week you have him been leveraged, which is black male. the second week you have stormy daniels sort of talking about these things. i mean, if you're if you're i'm not a lawyer. we have plenty of them here. but if i was the prosecution i did watch the oj simpson's series in college, so i feel somewhat expertise but i don't think they've proven their case. their case isn't the trump had this alleged affair. their cases that he willfully conspired to conceal this payment for his election in november. i don't think they've hit that and we'll and addi michael cohen is the biggest leap proven liar, convicted liar. we certainly didn't trust them. the campaign i was told by trump org not to trust everything. does brad of time we appreciate you coming out and joining the panel. >> thanks to all of you. i always learn a lot from all of you testimony in donald trump's hush money trial is done for the day on monday. the big show. michael cohen under

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