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doctors preferred better science, better results. i, hanako montgomery and tokyo and this is cnn just pass 9:00 p.m. here in new york, we begin the hour after the first of what's expected to be several days of testimony, the former president's hush money trial by a critical witness, michael cohen, a former fixer and attorney for donald trump. >> he testified today about the then-candidate's alleged deep level of knowledge and involvement in the payments to stormy daniels, as well as delayed but reimbursement of cohen for cohen says fronting the cash. but cohen's testimony is potentially undermine bypass that includes some felony conviction and i'll equally significant credibility issues. we're joined now by lani davis, famed as a former special counsel for the president clinton. he's now the former turning current legal advisor, michael cohen, also former federal prosecutor, elie honig is also joining us my

name is good to see you. what was your impression of how michael cohen did? and what can you tell us about how the preparations that he has gone through before taking the stand well i wasn't there, of course, but i hear that he was controlled and it reminded me of the long journey painful at times that i've had with michael since june of 2018 when he finally talk to me about turning his life and fessing up and owning his lies over ten years with donald trump and i kept saying, why should people believe you? >> that was in june of 2018 the next time he walked into a hearing room on the record on national international television looking at a sign on the wall above, congressman jim jordan, head that said, liar, liar, pants on fire and that was the congressional hearings that we expected him to be calm and factual and tell the truth and own all his lies. and do

that in real time. and then finally being with him for the last few years while prosecutors questioned him and ultimately decided that they had this case. but following how they a question to him and how they prepared as elie honig knows, the construction of his cases about documents and about text messages and about corroboration because of course they know that credibility will be at a line of attack and that he's gotta be backed up in everything that he says. and i think that's the way it's been developed. and what do you think was the key moment today from his testimony, there were the key takeaway i wish i could have been in the courtroom. >> i decided it would be better to be in washington, not bad on my way through the courtroom and be available to do this for michael. but what i gather was a key moment for him was the control that he showed. i know last night i'd perform

mother's day dinner. we talked and he was calm but he was very anxious and has been been a lot of stress, fear for his family, the president united states threatened his wife, is wife's father is children have been threatened. so he's been through a very bad or deal, not to mention any went to prison and was in solitary confinement after he refused to sign a piece of paper, promising not to write a book. this guy has been through a lot of pain and all i heard last night was resolved to do what i said to him before his congressional testimony keep your voice down to tell the truth and oan everything that you did wrong for trump. don't defend and do an attack. just own it. and the rest is going to be up to people to judge, including the jury. i never bunch of other folks on the panel course, there was a lot of my other one courses you it's a question we ask stormy daniel's attorneys just a second ago. do you know how many times he worked with

prosecutors and now with prosecutors to go over to prepare for today. i mean, it must have been alive. yes. >> i, was with them every time. a lot of people made fun of me because i want are the same tan jacket all the time, anderson, i had to try to get another jacket we walked in and out of that prosecutor's office first and the first set of prosecutors i first called cy vance and asked him to come up to otis field federal satellite penitentiary, he was sent to interview them for the first time, secretly in prison and that was in 2019. so count the years, how many sessions we've had with the prosecutors. first piecing together a financial fraud case, ultimately that went to the york attorney general. can which 100 or more and sometimes hours and hours at an end. so if i counted them up over five years, at least 100 or more you probably

another j. mean, i was there so it was painful i don't he just write questions for you one, you said earlier to wolf blitzer that every word of michael cohen's testimony will be corroborated, but is there a way to corroborate what he testified to today? one of the biggest moments there at the end where he said that trump did approve the agreement that that he and ellis on weisselberg, ed, come to of how he would be repaid well, i think we had missed mcconney, hey verify that he was aware of the true up of those numbers. >> that is allen weisselberg's handwriting and trump dictated well, the approval. allen weisselberg writing it up and trump knowing that he was not paying legal expenses. rudy giuliani said that on television, donald trump at first said he knew nothing about the stormy daniels matter. we denied the affair but the fact of the legal expenses is going to be the key fact that the jurors just have

to use their comics. they're common sense jurors. so go to bed at night and don't see snow on the ground in wake up in the morning and see snow on the ground have not seen it snow, but they use their common sense. there's no other reasonable alternative donald trump in the oval office, why does this shock us and shocked me the first time michael told me it was before the congressional hearing. i said, how did you get paid michael the money that you laid out for stormy daniels? he said, oh, he wrote me checks when well, in the oval office when i visited him as president, he wrote, you checks in the oval office where are those checks? oh, well, their home. well, could you ask laura to take a photograph and send them to my phone so i can get them to the congressional committee. so what is the explanation that donald trump would say why he wrote $35,000 checks from our personal bank account while he was a sitting president. >> yeah. unless let's see testifies and i invited him today to testify. he said he would testify. why won't he

testify unless michael is telling the truth and he's afraid to testify. >> yeah. i have a feeling he's not going to get on the stand, but i do want to just remind everyone in this one moment because you bring up the oval office. >> i agree with you. >> i actually asked donald trump about michael cohen when in the oval office, this was after the fbi had raided his home and his office, and trump had been saying publicly that the new york times is trying to get michael cohen to flip on him and just, you can see the level of anger and trump's face as he doesn't answer these questions. >> thank you very much thank you let's keep going what is on the other tapes mr. obviously, after that, trump had his aides banned me from the white house, but i just wonder what you think it was like for michael cohen to be there in the room with donald trump today and for donald trump to listen to that

testimony. well, honestly, i listened to michael's voice last night and he sounded relieved to me and burdened because he finally after all this time he finally going to be able to tell the truth what happens to mr. trump, whether he is acquitted or convicted is really not my concern nor should it be anybody's concerned. it's up to a jury that's our jury system and if he is acquitted than i accept that, but what i wanted was for michael as delta, his lawyer, to tell the truth and get his life back and when he called me and he said he was doing this for his wife and his family and his country. i believe tim because i knew he was only opening the door to a lot of suffering who is going to go to jail is going to be vilified by mr. trump and all of his supporters, and he's faced nothing but pain. but i think there's something relieving about telling the truth and going through the pain of

telling the truth. and that's what i hear heard in his voice last night when its ally here, good to see you. it's been a little bit. i just wanted to follow up so almost exactly 12 hours ago, i asked you, is michael cohen going to testify that donald trump approved these payments? in what you had termed the mob boss style, the general. go ahead and get it done, or is he going to say that donald trump specifically authorized the specific retainer payments? you said 12 hours go it was going to be the mob boss style, but actually michael cohen did the opposite. he gave specific testimony. he finished up his testimony by saying there was a specific time when albert weisselberg and i net with donald trump laid out and retain her payments. and he said, do it. were you surprised by that no. >> sorry, ellie, i either misspoke. i didn't speak clearly or i'm just plain tired. no, of course, i've heard michael telling me that it was very specific. the understanding was he waited and waited. david pecker and the people at the national enquirer we're telling them you got to pay. it was panic setting in as election day approached. and

finally, michael was waiting and waiting and then he got the instruction. go ahead and pay it no question. but he also many times got the code from donald trump and lots of other incidents that he testified to in his congressional hearings. i think that was referring to that elie lanny, let me ask a question about the charges in this case. this is a case about false business records prepared by the trump organization. >> does and this was something i was a little unclear about from the testimony today. >> does michael cohen know specifically how donald trump caused false business records to be made? or did he just take the money and assume the false business business records were made? >> i'm not aware in all the hours that i spent with him which over 100 hours in this prosecutors moon, that he saw the recording of those business records as legal expenses which

made them fraudulent. and of course enhances the 34 counts into felonies as a means of concealing the crime that i don't think there's any doubt that he was motivated for political reasons. everybody. i just don't get that argument on that any longer. and of course, i'm trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because he's innocent until proven beyond a reasonable doubt. geoff. but on the actual recording of the expenses, i think it's more like the famous circumstantial evidence test that i said earlier. he knew they weren't legal expenses of that is certain. those numbers were recorded as legal expenses. so is he going to argue that he didn't know they were recorded as legal expenses when he knew he was writing checks from the oval office to reimburse a crime and that is the what the jury has to use. it's common sense about and the old song that i mentioned. if you go to sleep at night, there's no snow on the ground you wake up in the morning, there's snow on the ground, there's no direct

evidence that it's node this jury is going to have to use it's common sense. did donald trump really lie about there being legal expenses and then they recorded as legal expenses and it wasn't because of his instruction that there should be a concealment of the real crime, which was the crime that michael cohen went to jail for, which is paying money for political reasons right before an election. >> lennard davis, i really appreciate your time tonight. thank you. >> could i say one thing, andrew serwer. >> go yell. >> spent a long time since i've said that to you. so go yeah you have a good night. >> thank you. thank you. everyone else does stay with us where the full transcript from today's testimony coming up, michael cohen testifying on the fallout of the access hollywood tape plus the former president brought an entourage, republicans with them today to say the things a gag order prevents him from saying that's ahead russia. >> we're trying to spy on us. we were spying on them this is a secret, war. secrets and

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concealing your communist sympathizer? >> just supervisor. streaming exclusively on the full transcript of today's testimony by michael cohen is out. he became the latest witness to testify just how scared the former president of 2016 campaign staff was when the access hollywood tape surfaced one former aide who worked at the rnc when the tape came out, previously testified that members there were rattled than that she remembers conversations about possibly needing to replace trump as the republican presidential candidate. today, cohen gave more testimony about the fallout and john berman joins us with some of those transcripts. >> yeah, it was really the stormy daniel's matter following access hollywood that according to michael cohen, in rage, donald trump are really set him off. he's describing a moment when stormy daniels

people is to be keith davidson and dylan howard from the acquirer came forward and said, stormy daniel's is looking for some money here. hovland, you're the prosecutor says, did you tell him donald trump what you had heard from dylan howard and keith davidson cohen says, yes officer says, and what was his reaction? cohen says, he was really angry with me. i thought you had this under control. i thought you took care of this. i expressed to mr. trump, we did 2011 will the stormy daniel's matter first came up. cohen says, i have no control over what she goes out and does. and he expressed to me there was a previous denial. just take care of it. there was a lot going on in the campaign at the time. he was like just cake, take care of it hallfords. your did he say anything to you at the time about how this might be viewed if it got out, cohen says, yes, hoffinger, what did he say in substance cohen? he said to me, this is a disaster, a total disaster. women are going to hate me because this is really a disaster. women will hate me. guys may think it's cool but this is going to be a disaster

for the campaign. hoffinger, what if anything, do you understand it to by women will hate this and what his concern was todd blanche says objection, judge. overruled. michael cohen says he was pulling very poorly with women in this coupled with the previous access hollywood it would tape. he just stated this disaster and get control over it. >> i think we can put this particular aspect of this case to bed. i mean, it obviously was motivated by the campaign that payoffs every single witness has said it it makes perfect common sense. this is michael cohen saying nothing new that everybody hasn't said before. and yeah, there's a couple well snippets where people said, well, he was worried, trump was worried about meloni. i was worried about his family situation. that's fine. that doesn't cancel out. that they've shown. i think more than adequately, that there was a campaign mode. if i just don't see any basis to say that there was no concern with the campaign. how could that even be where ellie doesn't the this and jeff doesn't hearing this ring this bell about attorney-client privilege. what how is how he's representing me. i am the

prior i'm a loyal to the president in his private lawyer. and we're having these private conversations. how does this attorney okay. >> so there's a crime-fraud exception. and here's the only way that comes in, because now you have two lawyers on the jury who may know of this. >> the only way the crime for exception, it comes in is the judge has to have ruled beforehand that they were that it fits into the crime-fraud exception. so now the lawyer there's if the lawyers know their stuff, the way my colleagues here do in their mind, they're like, well, the only reason why we're hearing this is because the trial judge has already ruled that there must have been some crime here that there's now there's an exception to the attorney-client privilege. that's the way we're hearing michael cohen is no longer an attorney. >> he was disbarred as a part of those secondly, to that point, michael cohen is not the first person to testify to this, and this is a way that you saw the prosecution handling this today is a lot of

what michael cohen testified to. tech city read calls that he backed up were once that the jury had already seen, it doesn't matter where but hope hicks has already testified that trump was worried about what was going to happen with the election. we've heard that from david pecker as they anticipated that women problem hope hicks is not his lawyer. michael cohen, issues they said it. >> so it he said it in the jury heard it, so it doesn't nullify it. >> it's a good question. i think the answer is this attorney-client privilege has been very much waived by both parties. i think trump and cohen have long ago suspended any claim that they're still covered by privilege. they've both talked at length publicly in front of congress here in this trial to prosecutors about what was said. so i think this has been very much weight, meaning given by both parties longer, exactly five hours exactly like it's long gone. >> but what i don't understand what i don't understanding advance and we'll see is i understand that you can point out that michael cohen has this history of lying. you say lied to his wife, but which parts of

his testimony will they try to go after? that's what i find curious because i think so much of his testimony is bolstered by other witnesses. you can say he's a terrible person. you can say he's he's convicted perjure. but what is the testimony before this jury? that's false. >> that's what let's say. i have a little bit of the charge. it's the sample george, i don't know if this is exactly what the judge is going to read, but this is the part of it. if you find that anyone has has intentionally testified falsely as to any material fact, you may disregard that witnesses entire testimony, or you may disregard so much of it as you find was untruthful. there's also a part here that says, did the witness has a conscious bias, hostility? for some other attitude that affected their truthfulness of the witness's testimony all during can take that into consideration. >> all that all that is true, but the question is, was the

money a reimbursement that's it's just seems to me that so much of this case is proven, even if even if michael cohen is a terrible, let me ask you this question. >> i wanted to ask it to allow any davis. >> what should donald trump have written data? >> so first of all, we saw the checks on the checks, it does not say legal fee. it's just a fee. it just the amount of money to michael cohen so it doesn't say not only illegal three on the back so it could be that is here. i'm reimbursing him and this is part of the reimbursement. so what should have said, don't forget, it's a non-disclosure agreement. so what you don't want it to say is reimbursement to pay hush money to stormy daniels. so what should it have been? logged under? >> what word should have been put in the books something other than a lie, which is that it was a retainer. >> they don't say no one said and we're says retainers is a legal fee. he's paying his lawyer back for money. that is lawyer paid out to the phrase

on the on the on the stubs is retainer that's the word retainer okay. and it's not a retainer. >> you're right. it is not a retainer, but it could be considered a legal fee when it's a lawyer who laid out their money for you and now you're paying the lawyer back. >> i will say arthur, that throughout the test and money what you do see is cohen and others testifying that trump was aware of many of the specifics of what was going on and there was another element of that in the testimony today. he's talking about setting up the accounts where the ultimate payments came from. the prosecutor says, did you call mr. trump before you went and set up the account to make a transfer, cohen says yes, hoffinger says, what substance did you discuss with him on these two calls? for which there are car records for cohen says, i wanted to ensure once again, he approved through i was doing because i required approval from him on all of this. that's what the sum and substance of the conversation was laying out exactly what was going to happen and what was being done in order to ensure the story didn't get sold to the daily mail or somebody else

officer, did you let him know you're going across the street and you're going to get the account setup and make the payment. cohen says, yes, ma'am, would you have made the payment to stormy daniels out getting a sign off from mr. trump. cohen says no, hoffinger asks, why not? cohen says because everything required mr. trump sign-off on top of that, i wanted the money back. okay. so this is really important testimony and this is a good example. but where michael cohen is and is not corroborated throughout this day, it's october 26, about two weeks before the election. the prosecution did a masterful job of weaving and various forms of corroboration. there's the phone records that john talked about. there's certificates from the bank, there's emails that backup that that's exactly what michael cohen did that day. however, to jeffries point, how are they going to cross-examined? how are they going to suggest michael collins lying? they're going to say what you actually discussed the content of that phone call with donald trump. all we have for that is michael cohen's word and folks on the jury can you trust him at his word? yeah. there's other stuff scaffolding is a good expression you used earlier. there's scaffolding around them, but to fill that in, you

have to take the word of this this man at face value that's what they're going to say. he's not a fabulous he's not inventing things but he's an opportunity to, you're right, your right butt, and just to emphasize that point, the most provocative and interesting parts of his testimony today, we're about conversations he had with donald trump. yes. and for that, there is no corroborate unless donald trump takes the stand, which we all know he's interesting here for, that is how much he would sort of go into donald trump's office where he says he would go into donald trump's office even after one phone call to fill in trump on something that trump wanted to hear all the details of all these steps along the way. hey, for just about everything monday. okay. and that goes to the standard issue that comes up in cooperating with cooperators all the time. and your point about oh, he's a terrible person. he's a liar. will who was inside and outside of donald trump's office for ten years? >> let me the judge, the jury, a motive. you may consider

whether a witness had or did have a motive to lie. they're going to show a picture of him wearing a t-shirt that has donald trump behind bars. does this guy have biased as this guy have a motive to put him behind jail? he's telling the whole world that he does it will be interesting to see how he handles that on cross because today he made a point at several several junctures where he would make fun of himself for he would say, yeah, i had an ego that's why i thought that i should get a job in the white house or yes. >> i did want to benefit from being donald trump's personal attorney and i knew it would come with a lot of opportunities where maybe donald trump wasn't paying me once he was president, but i was going to get all this other access. he took these small moments to kind of make fun of himself or criticized himself. and the question is, how the jury will discern that there are essentially expressionless during this entire testimony. you cannot tell they're paying such close attention. they're taking copious notes, but you cannot tell what they are thinking or how they're taking it. >> john berman, thanks very much. i appreciate it coming

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don't wait scan the code now and ask about the bosley guarantee when we're right back where we started tied up at two games apiece. this series is a long way from being over next timberwolves nuggets coverage begins tomorrow would seven nba playoffs presented by google pixel with conference semifinals coverage presented boeing stop on to end. >> three. >> on arguably the biggest day of his criminal trial, the former president brought his biggest entourage, including number of republican lawmakers and at least one vice presidential hopeful senator jd vance of ohio. they took the microphone, shouldn't the lunch break to denounce the proceedings what's going on inside that courtroom is a threat to american democracy. >> ladies and gentlemen, we

cannot have a country where you get to prosecute your political opponents instead of persuading voters vance one to attack prison, biden, who to be clear, has nothing to do with this trial and take shots at michael cohen, which defendant of course, is gag from doing. now, democratic strategist james carville. so james, i mean, she didn't want to be surprised that i mean, the former trump's running mate auditions have moved to the courthouse not at all. i'm what i'm spotted, it took people so long to get there. i mean he got cameras, she got for bursty, he got to suck up to trump of course, there is zero evidence that president biden had anything to do with just prosecution, but i've just done it took so long my favorite to adamson was sent to tuberville from alabama, who said that the manhattan criminal court was depressing, i guess she was expecting my cousin, vinny to show up you can do criminal courts, tend not to be the most cheerful places, right?

>> places in the world. yeah. >> do you think it guilty verdict or for that matter, a hung jury would hurt the former president politically. i mean, nothing else seems to the latest polls in new york times show my head of president biden a bunch of key swing state i haven't seen in the last year. we've had indictments, we've had war as we've had foreign policy crisis, depose, haven't changed so i don't think anybody can say would much confidence. i think a hung jury of anything, would probably helping but weirdly enough that it just seems to be stuck in a place and has been stuck there for a while i don't know all predictions that things were changing been futile so far to bob. but all i can tell you is i i don't know. but i think a hung jury would would would help him. i do think give him more enthusiasm be joined it huge crowds and it's quite

concerning out there james, it's kaitlan collins and first i have to tell you roll tide because i see your tiger shirt that you're wearing right now, but i have to ask you, speaking of senator tuberville, four alabama from alabama, he clearly is someone who is beautiful, been angling for maybe a cabinet position if trump wins and is back in the white house, jd vance, obviously it would like to be vice president. others in this realm are going to show up. we know vivek ramaswamy, marco rubio. i'm sure we'll see doug burgum maybe at some point. what do you make of the fact that all these people who are either trying out to be donald trump's vice presidential pick or his cabinet, are in that second row of the courtroom what's really amazing is the lack of support. i think your son, eric, was the only family member and he kinda showed up for a day. >> i don't think his wife will get within the same state easier but it's been amazing that no one has figured out what sentenced to vance and send at the tuberville for them.

>> they got more publicity. to date and have gotten maybe all year. and i suspect that they were going to see more support for him to trial because people figured out where the late that that the cameras at they can get exposure what's really surprising is to let and in a trump supporters don't show up. there was one person sitting out there supporting him, so it is a pretty lonely guy in that courtroom. >> yeah. it's only been maybe ten supporters outside the courthouse, even though anyone can go and eric trump, you make a good point because eric trump has been the only family member who's been there. he was back there again today. i've seen him probably three times, but politically speaking, you would always see a candidates spouse next to them in a moment like this. and i think obviously melania trump is not a typical politicians is felt by any means, but what it say that that she isn't there?

>> well, it says a lot. i mean, the whole thing would baron was going to be a delegate and she came in and said, no, i don't not privy to any other private details of their marriage, but it doesn't seem to be a very from a distance. it doesn't seem to be remotely are happier close-run, but that's really not none of my business. but it is amazing. i mean, if you want to criminal trial, you would take your family would show up. are your friends are. there would be some kind of support for your emotional support and moral support. but it's really stunning how little he said until today in i think the cameras will draw some more people there. >> how do you think president biden should handle this? should he be commenting on the trial more directly? or they're obviously wary of doing so, given trump is so directly tried to say that this is biden's trial, even though it's obviously not it's not like this thing is not being covered. you don't need to throw an extra waldo in a

firearm in its blazing away. now. and i think i agree that the president should stay away from it, shouldn't comment on it but right now he's got to try to move some money numbers yet these posen stuck in a ditch and admin at wave for awhile if the access hollywood tape didn't derail trump's campaign in 2016, why would a case involving business records of the stormy daniels pay off derail his campaign in 2024 i don't know. >> i'm saying it's a good question and i can't pretend that i know the answer to. i don't think anybody else can pretend that they know the answer to it. you would think all of these indictments you'd think that the covid response you would think everything that had been january to six, i was firmly convinced that it would done in by january 6, more people than ever think it's a tourist visit. now i'm totally flummoxed. is how distinct

stays the same, but i do know one thing. it just stays the same and nothing more things happen, the more things stay the same and we're democrats are doing the presence of doing terrible voters under 30 would, with black voters, which are pretty key to this whole equation here. so hopefully, we can get something going here. in the next four or five months. but right now, not looking at promising james, it's it's abby phillip here. i wonder. i mean, not now we know hey, i mean now we know that this might be maybe the only trial that we see if donald trump this year is it time for democrats to move on and look at the fundamentals of this race and not see these trials as somehow this x factor that's going to have a huge influence on how this thing turns out in yeah. >> i think i think we have to

because the fundamentals right now, frankly, are are depressing. and we have all of these events in they changed little, nothing. i mean, maybe there's some evidence that trump might be a point and a half or two points. we could and he was a year ago what did it you have to really squint to see that happening and i don't see the numbers for the present moving now on the upside is we are doing pretty well. they senate races, and that's been pretty consistent over several months. i've seen a lot of senate poland and that does look good, but right now in the presidential race, this is a sticky wicked out there that's all i can say. >> if there are all these characters parading to the courthouse to maybe audition for trump's vp. there are some who were here this week some who were down in mar-a-lago over the last couple of weeks? which one do you think poses the greatest threat here to the

biden campaign at this point i don't think i don't think trump's vice president natural pick is going to mean a lot i mean, i think he picked pence because he thought it probably would put invalid. >> he thought he'd shore up the religious right a little bit. i think that needs an argument for an up some argument that it did in 2016? help him in that response after that, i said, yeah, it couldn't help him. >> so i said yeah, authority pretty show up and it might have helped it might help some on the margins. but i don't want people come up in his speculated could be this person or that person. i don't see any vice presidential pick changing the basic equation that we looked i can add right now. i really don't. i mean, what i'm hoping happens is recovery keeps going on and it keeps dig in deeper down and people start feeling it. but right now it's recovery that people have denying that exist and it's a good word is

recovery, because you have come back from something. so we should call it a recovery but our economic message in is not breaking through. it's been counterproductive so far and carville a great to have you appreciate it thank you. >> thank you. it was a great panel. thank you. appreciate. >> glad you're new orleans. >> how the jury is receiving cohen's testimony so far and whether they'll ultimately by the word so i'm going to meet a liar reaction from a trial and jury consultant next what impacts you every day in denial, there's one influential book and shapes the way we measure ignite the bible, z in fact, is all around. discover how at museum of the bible writer team, wider teeth in just two weeks guaranteed after using smile actus, my teeth are the widest they have ever been. my teeth are sensitive with at-home whitening kits made my teeth hurt. >> mile active is designed to

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susan hoffinger then asked him, did mr. trump asked you to take any action with respect to the story, cohen replied, yes. avenger says, what did he ask you in general to do? cohen answers make sure it doesn't get released. here's what mcdougal's said to me in 2018 do you think the presidential race had anything to do with this deal getting done? what i'm looking back at it now, possibly, yeah. >> if donald trump hadn't been running for president, do you believe this deal would have been made with ami knowing what you know now, probably not. >> no, i haven't for not you're pretty you're convinced. now this was an effort to do a favor for donald trump in the last few months of the presidential race unfortunately, yes it's tough cutting from that shot of me in 2018 to this, i'm just saying ravitch been ravaged by time as john oliver one said, joining us out with jury and trial consultant or not, i was to be we're not appreciate you being

with us. >> one of the things that the courtroom sketch artist who was here said christine cornell, which is something a lot of us have noticed being in the courtroom, is that the jury does not look donald trump when they come in and out does that you read anything into that as a jury, juries typically do not look at defendants that often when they're coming in or out. but be sure they are watching his every move. so when he is shaking his head, they are noticing when he is muttering things under his breath, they are noticing and you know, he might not be doing himself any favors by doing that because they're catching all of that and they're thinking, all right, you want to say something. take the witness stand. so i don't know that it's such a great thing. he's doing it one thing i'd be watching for though, as the jurors walk in and out. are the two lawyers body buddies because that is something now i'm not a believer in reading faces are reading body language, but something you can tell r what jurors are bonding with each other. and if the two lawyers are bonding, that's good for somebody. and if they're not bonding, that could show you that there's gonna be some what we do anniston honestly, because i've

tried several games it isn't that courthouse there's only a couple of places to go eat lunch around there. now, i don't know if they're getting any extra security because of this case, but typically they don't and it's interesting to see who's eating lunch with who, who just went were nodal said who's going on the brakes with who when they get a break, who's going to get a soda with who? and you're trying to figure and then you go back and you look at the sheet is that we're not okay. creates and you're like, okay, well, this guy's a bus driver and he's hanging out with this woman who is an accountant. and you end the truth is, we don't know what the heck we're talking about it's all it's all who knows who's going to say people have been together now for weeks so personalities are kicking in. >> there are people that like each other. there are people for sure that do not like each other on i can to each other before deliberation or not. so you're not supposed to discuss the case, but they have to talk about something. >> so i don't have much experience in court, but i testify once in front of a jury and i was interested that some of them were very attentive some of them clearly were bored by just not wanting to be there

and no interest. >> what i was saying watching this jury as a spectator two weeks ago they were intensely watching this. none of them seem bored to be, none of them seemed to be thinking about something else. >> well, this is riveting stuff. this is, you know, maybe the most exciting i thought my testimony was not well, not that you're testimony wasn't riveting. i'm sure, but i mean, this is just such a historical event that they're taking part of. and what you see is we haven't lost any jurors, which is extremely unusual in a trial of this line, brennan nobody is going to drop if they can help or not. >> let me ask you about something that arthur said very loudly recently is there's a jury offended there's a jury you don't even need some fly there's a there's a jury instruction that says, if someone lies about one thing, you can discredit all their testimony. do jurors do that, or do they more pick and choose

what they choose to believe? luck, they make their decision and then they back into it. however, they're going to back into it, right? they look at the case holistically. and then if they have to pick and choose to reach their decision, that's what they're gonna do. and that's just the way it works. >> fine. people going with their gut like i trust this person who testified, i don't trust this person. i like this first, i didn't like them or i didn't like them, but i believe what they're saying and going without rather than the minutia of i think i think people people start with their gut and then they back into the logic. i don't know that it's the logical progression that you might think it is. so you know, how they feel about michael cohen is going to have a big impact. but i think he did interesting things today. one, he had an opportunity to say that donald trump either told him or didn't tell him that he had an intimate relationship with stormy daniels and he didn't do that. and i know you as a prosecutor probably would have said, well, if he's going to lie, he would allied better. that was a perfect opportunity for him to say something to bury donald trump. and he didn't do it. that shows these credible eye contact because there were moments where there are probably three moments where he

would really look at the jury, but there were a lot of moments where he'd answer a question from the prosecutor and then she'd started asking another one and then he'd look at the jury to kind of see like how they how they took it, but he wasn't looking at them as he was answering. does that make a difference in how they if they trust them, i advise witnesses when they're testifying, do what's comfortable to you, don't don't if you're not comfortable making eye contact with the jury, don't do it. if your field more company we're looking at the person that's questioning you. do that. it's really you have to be natural and authentic. that's the most important thing and testified, i'm a big believer to ronaldo's point in just a gut instinct, i think so much of this comes down to god. i mean, i had an experience where once we tried to case, we put on a really bad guys a cooperator and ten of the 12 jurors just outright rejected, didn't like him, thought he was scary rejected his testimony, that jury hang ten wanted to wait wait for the ending though. we retried it. >> and they convicted on everything including on things that were solely based uncorroborated on that

cooperators testimony. so probably because they liked you, maybe you're just sort of stay felt clips, but honestly it could just be as simple as that. we'd liked this layer. we don't like to search 12 human beings. we like this cooperate or we don't like an obstacle? >> is it to have somebody who has lied repeatedly in the past? >> well, here's here's a i mean, it's obviously a huge obstacle, but but just because he's lied in the past, they could say if he is credible about this, like i said, the stormy daniels thing, i think he did himself a favor but i think there was there was one interesting thing that he said was a $375,000 that he was getting paid. >> if you do the math and divide that by 12, that's 31,000 and change that sort of lines up with the 35,000 he was getting a month, which is what the trump team is going to argue that these were legitimate payments for legal fees every month. so i thought that was a very interesting thing with this case is that there's there's almost like a crystal clear common sense argument about what happened. but then the legal part of it actually feels to me quite complex if you're on the jury

how how do you think the jury is going to deal with that there's a part that kind of seems obvious. yeah, this was about the campaign. you had. trump didn't want people to know. yes, he didn't want to do it the right way because it would have been illegal. but but proving the elements of the crime it's a jury going to have a hard time with that. yes. i think they're going to struggle, but i think we all try to make decisions in the most straightforward and easy and simple way we can and one way they're going to start that process is they're going to go into the jury room and they're gonna say, do you believe michael cohen, but we're not to your point, you and i've worked on trial files together and i would be saying this, it doesn't matter that donald trump has see anything else whose job biden sitting there, i'd be saying the same thing. >> it's not going to be easy. this isn't the kind of cases that you see in state court where it's straight up bribery. what did he do? he told me you do this. i'll give you this amount of money, like even the menendez case down the block. this is like complicated legal issues who's that basically what they're saying is two misdemeanors outside the

statue of limitations. if you put them together, you get a felony that's inside the statute of limitations. accomplishment already, but the defense made it easy because they're saying straight-up these were $35,000 legal payments. you either believe that or you don't if you don't believe it you're going to convict him. well, let me just very quickly, would you have wanted to jurors on the i2 lawyers on this? i am very squeamish about lawyers on any jury, unless you are really confident about what they're gonna do. >> look, we don't know the names of the jurors. the parties do they know a lot more about them than we do so they might know something and we don't feel thank you. >> great to have your expertise. thanks, everyone. programming know before we hand off tonight this friday at three 60 special my replay, my interview with karen mcdougal's. you just saw i talked her back in 2018 right after the story broke of her alleged affair with former president something he denies. it's the only teepee interviews she's done. watch the interview this friday at 8:00 p.m. eastern. the news continues it's right here on cnn cnn this morning with kasie

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