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santa.com closed captioning brought to you by in vet help call one 1020. do you have an invention idea but don't know what to do next. >> collin van help today, they can help you get started with your idea called now 8071000 two zero and good evening, thanks for joining us. >> we were expecting fireworks in the first day of cross examination of michael cohen, the onetime fixture if the former president turned witness in his criminal hush money trial and we got it no sooner had the defense began after morning, the prosecution front ending all possible attacks on cohen's character. then defense attorney todd blanche repeated a colorful shall we say insolvent conic used to describe blanche online that prompted a sidebar with the judge who asked blanche, blanche? why are you making this about yourself? the attorneys said he that he wasn't and he had a quote, right to show the witnesses bias. the judge sustained the objection. the trial got back underway, but it was wasn't

long before blanche returned to cohen's propensity to mouth off on social media. blanche has cohen quote, and on that same tiktok. so again, on april 23rd, you referred to present then trump, when he left the courtroom, you said that he goes right into that little cage which is where he belongs in. and i'm going to clean up the language here, effing caves like an animal. do you recall saying that blanche asked cohen, responded, quote, i recall saying that it's sort of set the tone for the rest of the hearing where the former president's attorney, a former federal prosecutor, tried to undermine cohen's credibility, as well as his recall of conversations with the former president wasn't the only drama either its allies of the former president, including house speaker mike johnson and several others who appeared to be in town for a vp audition, showed their numbers. then for the second day in a row, said what a former president under gag order cannot joining us tonight. former us attorney michael moore former federal prosecutors, jeffrey 2-bit and timme aganga-williams also seen an anchor, kaitlan collins, who was in the courtroom this morning former federal prosecutor elie honig, and

corresponding kara scannell, who was also in the courtroom. kara, what was your impression? >> the cross seem to be the last thing that we all heard. so it kinda six our memory, but this morning with the prosecution also did was used cohen to wrap up their case going over month by month, all of the elements of the crime, the alleged crime, the invoices that cohen said were falsified, the check stub that he said the descriptions were falsified, and then the checks sign, but a majority of them signed by donald trump that he said was all false, all because the retainer then the prosecution tried to get ahead of all of cohen's past legal run-ins and everything. but then the cross i mean, that was we were expecting some fireworks here. what stood out to me was cohen remained compose the whole time as he was parsing words with todd blanche over whether he had lied to the special counsel during the investment of russia russia. russia investigation or whether he had given an inaccurate statement that we're going back and forth, cohen even kill the whole time and then relented and telling blanche, okay, i lied. but he

didn't he didn't break us cool. and he didn't he didn't give in on some of these other things, but the real theme of the day was blanche tried to establish by throwing cohen's words back him from his podcasts, from his book that he hates trump and that hizon, a revenge shore and he's trying to make money doing it. cohen acknowledging made $4.3 million on the sale of two of his books which is actually quite a lot for the sale of the to supposed can war was like in court, not surprising though. i mean, he is, he was donald trump's former attorney who felt that people were interested in a lot of time to write at a lot of time to write and reflect as he talked two arguments this morning with michael cohen were really interesting for the reasons that qarrah just laid out, but also because there were a few moments where everyone realized it was a big moment from his testimony, we're michael cohen said the reason he paid stormy daniel's that money was to ensure that the story wouldn't come out to hurt donald trump's chances. >> the winning the election. and if there had been no

election, he said he'd never would've paid stormy daniel's most likely, there were those few moments that as we were hearing about the documents and about comments he made about trump, it kinda crystallized why michael cohen was there. what really surprised me is when the cross started this afternoon, donald trump had this maynor of where he was kind of just closing his eyes again for sustained periods of time. he wasn't always watching the witness stand, i believe only once or twice was he scene kinda looking over because he has to lean over to actually see the witness. >> and that's not the way anyone expected him to be engaged. >> i think, especially as it was his attorneys time to grill michael cohen when stormy daniels was getting cross-examined, he was paying quite close attention. it was not the same way today, which stood out to me given of course, his hatred for michael cohen is much higher than stormy daniels elie, how do you think todd blanche did? i mean, he is actually not an experienced trial attorney. well, he's experienced trial attorney on the prosecution sayyed, but defending is very different. and by the way prosecutors are not very

experienced at cross-examinatio n. i'm just going to say candidly, i thought the cross-examination was unfocused and underwhelming. i followed minute by minute as we were doing our live coverage, i just re-read the whole thing. there were moments i think where he breaks through and scores points, but by enlarge he was jumping from topic to topic. he missed some obvious moments. i'll give you an example. the first question which you talked about in the warm up their anderson was wildly inappropriate and i think ms cast stakes blanche, came right out and said, we've never met you and me, michael cohen, right. and michael cohen said no and he said, yeah, you called me a crying little on tiktok immediate objection. sustained. it's not relevant what michael cohen thinks of the lawyer. it's very relevant with michael cohen. thanks. of the defendant, which he got to later. but if you're talking lunch, you don't want to make it about michael cohen versus the defense, or you want it to be michael cohen versus the truth. so i'm not impressed by what i've seen from the cross so far. he has a date to figure it out. he said he's going to take all day thursday, but i think he needs to change in course here.

>> what do you guys well, i'm glad to be with you. i do think some of what he did was pure tactics. i mean, i think this moving around and not having this timeline cross-examination is a good thing because you know that code like any other prosecution witness who has been prepped at nauseum folt to tell their stories. so you want to get them if you're cross-examine and you want to make them tell the story on your terms and not to follow the script that they've been in. so i can see that i really took away that the jury's probably see it and thinking right now that covid has a griffith are in a wafa he clearly is making money off this. he clearly somebody who's got his hand in the till to try to sell his books as long as he can keep paton tropp and things go south for trump and he can he can make money. >> question is, does that do they look at the president, former president that way? i mean, i don't know yet. i mean, honestly, because then cohen didn't help himself. he's kind of critical here because he's the only thing the state has to make this connection, to make this case a felony and that to move it from a misdemeanor business records case to say we were doing it because we were trying to basically break the federal law, the camp, the

campaign finance law and so he's gotta do that. and right now, he's been so hedging kg during his cross and not want to answer questions. juries pick up on that. i mean, they they will pick if he answers the questions completely and gives us very vivid memory to a prosecutor and then to the defense attorney, he suddenly that remember what he did yesterday or not so sure about it. pick up on it. i don't think that i don't think that's true at all about the felony issue. i think hope hicks, who is obviously favorably disposed towards trump, also talks about how they had to keep stormy daniels quiet because of the election. i think it was as elie said, a kind of stumbling start in terms of the theatrical, but he started certainly did establish that trump that can really can't stand trump and he hates him and he's bitter and he's not a part to his have not not not hard to establish what i'm waiting for is an explanation for the evidence other than the prosecution's evidence pro version. look cohen paid

$130,000 just stormy daniel's trump paid him $420,000. the prosecution has a clear explanation for why these transactions took place. and if they believe that he's gonna be convicted the one thing we didn't get it all today and there's a long time to go is we'll okay. if that's not the explanation for why this money changed hands, what is it and blanche didn't do any of that today. and we'll see if he ever do. they have to provide that or is just a reasonable doubt enough to poke holes in what the explanation it's about the prosecution. well, you need i mean yes, reasonable doubt is enough, but doubt as prosecutors like to say, doubts have to be based on reason. i mean, there has to be a reason that these transactions took place other than the prosecution's explanation, and i haven't heard it i mean, i think via the prosecutors, i'm feeling pretty good right now. i think they're on their way to conviction. and i think the entire burden always always rest on the prosecution, but

jurors are everyday rational people. and at some point they start to need a counter narrative. you have to give them something to hold onto. you simply can't say that this guy lacks credibility. i think what was effective here is because throughout this trial, we poured so much, frankly about what a scummy guy, michael cohen is multiple witnesses, including hope hicks. i said the problems about michael cohen. and by the time we get to michael cohen, there's a way in which i think he those a little bit of under promising and over-performing and when he gets up there and he comes off from what i've read with a calm demeanor. he's not fighting, he's not over the top. he's really coming and he's honest and what's effective i think is that on direct, a lot of the most damaging things that michael cohen come out through the prosecution and that's on purpose because by the time you get to the defense you're trying to go over some of these old threads, but it's not for the first time you're hearing that he has issues with donald trump or that he's lied before, or that he's a criminal. he said all these

things before, unknown to them. so i think it loses some of the oem for the defense lawyers come up, but let me the thing is you have to michael cohen needs to be flustered. that is what trump's team is trying to do. it didn't seem like they were very successful at that today. there were a few points where he said, well, that's not a lie. it's an inaccuracy and top-line said, okay, what's the difference? and they said, okay, it's a lie. and so he did was caught off guard a few moments on those parts. but when the prosecution was up and they were asking michael cohen about what it was like for the fbi to come and to rate his his hotel that he was staying. and because his house was under renovation, his home, his office, and what that was like, he was describing that he was frightened, despondent, angry up his life had been turned upside down and he talked about this call that he got from trump a few days later and we had heard at the time, trump called and maybe four days after after the raid called him back really. and he said that trump told him, don't worry, i'm the president of the united states. there's nothing here everything's going to be okay. stay tough. you're going to be okay. and then they went

into this pressure campaign to keep an attorney who was lined with donald trump to not flip and cooperate with prosecutors. my question was held. a jury takes something like that where they did this compelling story of what michael cohen was facing. >> let me just ask you as somebody who knows michael cohen from i don't know how much you actually know him, but from television and probably interviewing him was he likeable on the stand? i mean, was he michael cohen, who is the guy in the tiktok videos, who seems to like here and here i'm self talk. and he was not that person, as you know, i spent five hours this weekend watching michael cohen's testimony from capitol hill, and it actually is really informative for how well he was on the stand. i thought i think if you want to get an idea of what michael cohen is like on the stand and qarrah was there for the cross so she can answer that better today, then. that's a really good way because and lanny davis, his attorney, says, we test if we tried the night before michael cohen blow a gasket when they were person at what jim jordan and mark meadows would do. and lanny davis said, great if you

do that, republicans will be high-fiving you tomorrow. it was a similar method today where where he was really trying to be calm. he was saying yes, ma'am. no, ma'am. he was looking at the jury. i mean, he was really trying to not be the boisterous michael cohen that you see on tiktok or on television? >> in extremely controlled especially for anyone who's dealt with michael cohen or seen him in interviews, he can be so bombastic can begin so reactive to what someone says and almost always wants to have the last word. and in this he is just tremendous control on his part of answering the questions even when todd blanche is going toe-to-toe with in parsing things, he is he is not raising his voice. he is answering the specific question. and at times he tried to add a little bit more to it and some blanche would punch back and say, that's not what i asked you, but he didn't take the bait and he didn't react in the way that i think a lot of us have seen michael contract. >> yeah, not taking the bait is notable for michael cohen to me, were you surprised that the prosecution is not calling

embryos that the resting on michael cohen because there was a lot of talk beforehand of is he really the best person to leave them with from the prosecution standpoint, it must be assigned the prosecutors feel like you did a good job why? >> i think what it shows you is that the michael cohen we saw today was part of the plant and he's showing up the way the expected him to show up. when i was a prosecutor and handling trials. you want to put week witnesses kind of in the middle, right? it's not it's you don't want to end on someone that you think is gonna get up there, get battered, and really n on a week now because that's not what you want added fence to go into closing arguments with, or you want the jury to be thinking that last bit of your case, the fact that they're ending with him to me says one they feel confident they've made their case, and i think too, that they have believed that he's been a strong witness for them. i think they plan this prosecutors are not going to assess not a last-minute decision that well to stop with him at that point. they've thought about the elements and thought about their case. and i think it bears out because by the time we get to michael cohen, a lot of the critical

elements of this case, but david pecker and hope hicks, like referee was saying, have already been established. so michael cohen i think is really crossing the t's, but he was not a witness that you thought before he got on that this case? it was was bare-bones and he had to build the entire thing up and shared it with a closing. i think keras point about how they ended with the direct examination with putting in the checks and the documents. it's important to remember for all the drama. this is a case about false business records they put the records in front of the jury at the end of their case, and i think that was very much intentional and if there's a conviction, they will have made the right decision. >> kara scannell, thanks for being with us. everyone else is going to stick around the full transcript of today's testimony just been released, including more of cohen's colorful district objections of the foreign president. i still for media and on his podcast and just wide, the defense wanted those words in the record, plus what the jury may make out of these attacks on lipophilic character, jury consultant join

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the contentious testimony between michael cohen and the former president's defense attorneys. >> they have come out, we should point out that opposing counsel in the hush money trial got a preview of michael cohen as a witness back in october when he testified in the form of presence, civil fraud trial, including how he would handle the rickard, the credibility issue. this is what he said ahead of that testimony hi credibility should not be in question. yes, i plead guilty to a 1001 violations with lying to congress, but i also requested that people continue the sentence and the sentences i did it at the direction of in concert with and for the benefit of donald j. trump joining us. >> now are those transcripts is our very own john berman. so they defense was painting. michael cohen has man who hates trump had bent on revenge order. some of the highlights or lowlights. well, in this case i suppose there should be a warning here about language because it crosses over from pg 13, indurated are here you spoke a little bit about how todd blanche right out of the gay, said crying little yes.

>> elie said the word here about about five minutes later. he dipped in even more to some greatest hits from michael cohen. he's talking about cohen's tiktok. you also talked on social media during this trial about president trump. have you not? michael cohen says, sounds correct? yes. blanche says so. for example, in april 23rd, which is after the trial started, correct? cohen says, yes. you referred to president trump as dictator dieback didn't you? cohen says, sounds like something i said, which by the way is one of the answers he gives very commonly or sounds like something i said, blanche says, and on that same tiktok. so again, on april 23rd, you refer to president trump when he left the courtroom, you said he goes right into that little cage, which is worried belongs in an effing little cage like an animal. do you recall saying that cohen says, i recall i'll saying that and then a few minutes later in the trial, blanche starts talking about his podcast, cohen's podcast. blanche says, you recall the first one and 2020 as a chito dusted cartoon villain, something he called trump.

cohen says that also sounds like something i said. again, his common response now blanche says do you recall around that same time, october of 2020, you started talking about your hope that trump would be convicted of a crime, correct? cohen says, i don't know if those are the exact words that i said, but the sentiment is correct. you think you might have said, i truly epic. hope that this man ends up in prison. is that exact? cohen says it sounds like my language on may i culpa. >> the fact that michael cohen so obviously an over-the-top is consumed by hatred for donald trump, wants him in prison, is celebrating and is selling t-shirts, is outrageous. we take it for granted because this is just ben michael cohen's public persona for the last five, six years. >> but this should be a bonanza for cross-examining thank with three federal, former federal prosecutors here. >> what would you do if you found out the eve of a big trial that your star witness was selling t-shirts showing the defendant imprisonment. you'd have to think hard about this.

>> that would be no, i mean, you're right michael cohen has sort of way with words that can get funny, but laughing about defendant going to jail is i think it's offensive to the jury. >> that's not for michael cohen to say the about. that's the worst part of all the thing things for that. >> that's cohen has said it's one thing to say. he's terrible. i don't like you know, use all sorts of swear words, but if you are talking about the results of this case, i mean, that's what this case is about, whether donald trump is eligible to go to prison or not. and you have cohen campaigning for that. >> that's a very nice negative, negative. and blend. >> you should've the first hour on that. well, i mean, i don't think the jury is going to forget and he spent he spent some time on it. yeah. >> yeah. i mean i think we also have to remember these jurors are not like we are, right. i mean, they might not be watching everything prior testimony and stuff that go into said and so our expectations about how he would perform and what he would do might be a little different than what their expectations are, but he's, he is the

crucial witness i mean, i disagree with you about have they prove with the case because when i went back to look at the indictment of de and basically they've got to show that he intended to commit another crime not that he tried to help his campaign. they've got to show that he actually had the intent to commit another crime and i don't think they've gotten there yet and that's what they hoped. they've gotten their with cohen. >> but that's he's gotten to be the one. >> and so without that, that's why they're trying to dang is credibility time after time and whether it's through the comments that he makes on social media with how he acts on the stand their wishy, washy genus of his answers that's what thereafter. so i let you can't believe it, but don't forget he ran a tape on his client, didn't tell anybody you believe that they have proof? >> yeah. i think they have, but i think when you're dealing with a cooperator, what you have to think about is corroboration federal prosecutors all kind of prosecutors every day they put up murderers, for example, and they're cooperators. they put up all kinds let people who do done awful, terrible things, much worse than selling

t-shirts, and wishing that someone goes down, they've tried to kill people. they've killed sometimes the victims and that very case and juries believe them, because if you're going to challenge a credibility, you have to place it again to corroboration. i think that's where the counter narrative of explaining why is donald trump citing these it's $35,000 checks. again and again and again. they're obviously not for legal fees. i think that's a reasonable explanation. so i think the cohen question is going to come down to the corroboration when the jury goes back and think about all of these witnesses, they think about these documents. they think about what is a reasonable conclusion here, because it's beyond a reasonable doubt, not beyond all doubt. i think that's where the real challenge for the former president here that she mentioned don't go ahead you don't make an ax murderer, your cooperator to prove a jaywalking case. and that's sort of where we're at. i mean, they've taken somebody and he's got all this baggage and all this stuff and he can't keep his mouth shut even during the trial. and they put him forward to prove basically a documents case. and i think that may hang with your angry with you you know, you've got somebody in your prosecuting

they'll chatbot and you want to bring in somebody that's cut off heads and sold drugs and carriers, guns, and all that as your cooperating because that's the one closest to the organization you may have to do it i remember the hell's angels or whatever it is. but here, you know, you're using a guy that is so compromised, i think and they had to spend their whole case trying to pre habilitation him to clean him up. i just the guy who the foreign president chose to him by his sayyed for 20th that's, that's actually i mean, that's the point when it comes to the optics of how the jury sees this and how would they are taking in michael cohen, maybe they don't know everything, but for everything that michael cohen has said about donald trump, donald trump has said about michael cohen. they've shown those tweets to the jury as well. well, where donald trump criticized michael cohen for doing what paul manafort did not. the fact that paul manafort went to jail and saying that he would not flip and talking on michael cohen did and saying no one should retain the legal services of michael cohen, will donald trump did retain a legal services of michael cohen for ten years and we're talking about payments that he made to michael cohen at the heart of

this, i also think the other thing that todd blanche got into and i'm sure we'll get more into it. you speaking of how much he made off of his books and after the post-presidency are not being in the white house it's not clear how the jury will take that. it's not like trump as a normal defendant while we've talked about trump's wealth and how it's overstated. he is still a really wealthy person. and so it's not clear that this jury of regular people is seeing michael cohen and stormy daniels making money as this great sin against counting against them, given donald trump's wealth, john, one more did cohen say on the stand about trump's involvement with the payments? >> he said it was pretty direct and this was in the direct examination in the morning where susan hoffinger continued what you did yesterday. we haven't exchanger about the payments to stormy daniels, which was ground they covered yesterday, hafez, your says why in fact, did you pay that money to stormy daniels cohen says to ensure that the story would not come out, would not affect mr. trump's chances of becoming president united states. often here, if not for the campaign, mr. cohen, would you have paid that money to stormy daniel's?

cohen says, no, ma'am. todd blanche issues and objection. the judge overrules. that says you can answer cohen says no, ma'am. than half asked at whose direction and on whose behalf did you commit that crime and then cohen says, on behalf of mr. trump, i do wonder if that gets to the point you bring up michael, you talk about that in a second. i just want to very quickly say they also gotten the direct examination into the oval office visit, which is something caitlin been talking about for some time i'm more cohen says i was sitting with president trump and he asked me if i was okay in the oval office. he asked me if i needed money. i said no. all good. >> he said because i can get a check and i said no. >> i said i'm okay. he said, i'm all right. just make sure you deal with allen as an allen weisselberg and hoffinger asks, did he say anything about what would be forthcoming? cohen says, yes, it would be a check for january and february and then at that point in time, you had not yet being reimbursed for the payments you had made a stormy daniels cohen says, no, ma'am. >> this is a perfect example of what temidayo and michael were just talking about. >> that meeting.

>> the fact that that meeting occurred is corroborated 5,000 different ways. there's emails, there's texts, there's there's testimony from madeline, who was the secretary outside the oval office? no question. that meeting happened. no question when it happened. but as to what exactly was said, that's really just michael cohen's word. and so he is corroborated, but he's not all the way corroborated the jury, they can't get around the fact that the jury has to put some faith in michael cohen's word especially about the purpose of the payments. i mean, that's that's very important part of this case is that did this money was it a reimbursement? i think there's a lot of proof about that, but also the the the records, the business records that are allegedly false, they have to trust colon that cohen that that trump knew the records were false. that's really on colon and that's a big part of the confirm and thanks very much katelyn. i'll just question how the jury will take all this coming up with jury consultant gives his taken

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don't know what to do next. >> collin van help today, they can help you get started with your idea called now 800 7100, 020 want to discuss more about what the jury saw today. >> they heard since the beginning of this trial by the negative side of michael cohen, the liar, the bully, the jerk, according to one witness, how did the jury react to his cross-examined? when asian my next guest says, cohen might have even come across as likeable and delivered one line, the jury will remember forever by saying, quote, i was knee deep into the cult of donald trump journeys now for nano-scale, a jury trial consultant and attorney as well, how do you think cohen did today? >> i give him an a as a witness, given the baggage that he's coming onto the witness in width. if you just took that baggage and you gave it to any witnesses and okay. go testify. he did, as well as he's gonna do. i don't give them as a person. i mean, i don't think anybody wishes that he did all of those things are settle those things. but having done that and now taking the witness, then he did great. he didn't fight. he took the

punches he needed to punch and i think he came off credible. do you think the defense in their cross-examination i mean, the way todd blanche started it out, do you think it played well with a jury? you know, i don't i don't know that i would have started making it about me and now we saw what the judge said at the sidebar, but it's very hard to sit here and grade another lawyers paper when you're not in his position, i thought he did a reasonably good job. he made the points he needed to make, but michael cohen was absolutely excellent. he was very well i love the line that it sounds like something i would say because it really takes the wind out of the cross-examination. he's not arguing with them. he's not saying i don't remember. that makes the lawyer put it in front of him. then he says, all i do remember, the juror gets annoyed with that. he handled that perfectly. that line for shore was scripted by his lawyer. he didn't come up with that but it was the perfect law, but that's a density about that line is it sounds like something he might say, and it sounds like such a throwaway casual thing, but the idea that has been scripted out

ahead of time, he worked on that line. >> they worked on that because it's like no responsibility, right? >> yes. but it's like, well, it sounds like something was the perfect one yeah. >> and it also blends no matter how hard somebody comes at you with that, it's just absorbs at once. >> that's why it's perfect. but you know, at that moment at the beginning, when todd blanche did us those questions, they were stricken from the record. >> the questions and the answers. but i mean, the jury is still hears that, like it's still maybe it's on the record, but it's still their mind that that happened. >> of course, anything that gets in but in court, even if it gets stricken, even if the judge instruct the jury disregard that. of course, if i tell you not to think about pink elephants, that's the only thing that you can think about. >> so i got to the problem though for blanches, the first two questions he asked were both objection sustained. there was the question about what did you say these main things about me and then he started asking michael cohen about costs comments. michael cohen and made publicly about the jury objection. sustained. your credibility as a lawyer matters so much in front of the jury. and if the first territory's here, the sidebar? no, but they see the results. they know the result is objection. sustained.

you don't want to go over two, right? or not sure about the point that that ellie and i were were were just discussing about it's one thing to hate donald trump. it's another thing to be campaigning for a conviction and a jail sentence when you are testifying in the trial, that might lead to a conviction in jail sentence. >> i mean, isn't that a level of bias? >> that is bigger than even worse that then you can imagine i can hundred percent, no terrible judgment, terribly out of control. but given that you did those things, he handled it as well as he could have handled it. >> but you're absolutely right. i mean, what what a disaster to be doing, things like that and how out of control and see that is lawyers can't control on the prosecuted. nobody can control this guy. but you did well, you get an a in that case i mean, because doesn't that just call it a question everything he said had a curve? it does, but the way he answered questions, the way he presented himself, the way he maintained his cool and his

calm, the way he didn't fight, the way he didn't try and deflect. >> that was all absolutely spot on have you ever seen a witness with that much in that obvious a personal animus towards the defendant. >> i mean, look, the one thing you don't have in this case is that he doesn't have a cooperation agreement. yeah. so as you know, somebody with a cooperation agreement arguably has equal, if not more bias if they're trying to get out of jail, he's not playing any kind of get out out of jail free card, which when you're crossing a cooperating that's where you hammer them. you don't want to go to jail. you're you're, you will say anything to avoid jail time. they don't have that, but blanche did hit on that because he said the first time you approached the manhattan de a your three months into your sentence, you had three years and so he did make the argument that you are trying to maybe work your way out a little bit early, but you're right. >> i mean, ordinarily you have someone who's looking at a monster sentence and the cross-examination is your only way out is through this witness stand and through pleasing these guys, the prosecutors, that dynamic is only very subtly present with michael kuilan, but on the flip side, you have a guy who i would

argue has a greater incentive, which is entire identity. he is consumed by hate richard four, the defendant i've never seen that type of personal hatred and personal lusting for the person to go to jail. like i've seen in this case. but the one thing i will say though comparing i think look at michael cohen as a person worth thinking about other cooperators and other witnesses to this jury, they're thinking about our human story, and i do wonder, is there a space here with they're seeing the times where they have been loyal to someone and they've been back stabbed and seeing michael cohen is someone who perhaps he has this betrayal inside of him, but he has a reason for that. and i do wonder, is there a connection to be made there just because that did get drawn out? he stood by the former president. the former president, and he's now the one who's paid the consequences yes, it's not good for our jury system is not good for its system of justice, but it is a human story. i think some people will connect with. >> i agree. he, he made himself very relatable in that way that he was so loyal to donald trump and he was so hurt and he is

now trying to right wrongs that he did. i thought the line cult of donald trump was tremendous. that line will be remembered forever. so one of the greatest leinz, but he did, he did really hurt the defense here. in other ways. i mean, he said he did ten hours of work in 2017. now remember, the defense opened that these were legit legal fees. i think we've seen a mountain of evidence that they weren't how are they getting out of that? you promise things to a jury. they promised it multiple times in their opening. they are going to be eating that on summation, unless they call some witness to try and justify these $35,000 a month paton or going to answer that though. >> he did say they did ganim and say, well, i, get worked for the family and the guy thought there was actually a decent bit of testimony that todd blanche elicited. >> he said michael cohen was paid $350,000 a year, basically every year leading up to 2017, plus a bonus. so the argument is it wouldn't have been that outrageous or that notable to now suddenly be paying him 35,000 bucks a month, which comes out to four 20 per year. >> but the question is, if, what if that's what six in their mind that test no need

that blends elicited or where there was an hour this morning were the prosecution walked michael cohen, we saw every single check of the 11 checks that donald trump signed for him. michael cohen had to read the invoice that he sent to allen weisselberg. he showed the truck the check that donald trump's sayyed donald trump jr. eric trump as well. and every time michael cohen said that was a false and voice it was for no legal and they have that document and weisselberg handwriting, which explains how they came to the $35,000 a month, which again, the prosecution's evidence fits together. and what i'm waiting for in the defense is how they're going to attack it in a way other than stormy daniels is terrible. michael cohen is terrible know what is, what is the, what is the alternative explanation for these facts other than what i mean put forward since these you have michael cote, you tomorrow, there's no court. so the jurors have michael cohen in their minds going into a de and they don't have testimony and

then there's gonna be testimony on thursday. michael cohen will be on the stand and then friday, there's no court, so i mean, michael cohen is going to be very present in this jurors mind tomorrow and all through the weekend? >> yes. so strategically, what the defense wants to do is kind of run out the clock on thursday. they want to keep michael cohen on the witness stand. you might see todd blanche slow road pulling it just to get there because before that reason because they want because then there's gonna be some distance and there's gonna be three-day weekend because there's no court on friday. michael cohen fades a little bit and then i don't know what the defense case is going to be. they say they're going to put on an expert witness. i don't know expert as to what i mean. they've created a situation where their dispute putting that these were reimbursements, they're saying they were legit legal fees. that is the factual battleground that the defense has established. so i don't know what experts and they said they might or did they say they definitely will? we know. he says that he had dissipated. >> tablet said twice he and his weight's going until the end of day on thursday, which means that our monday though, michael cohen would still technically be all the way but the stand if

the prosecution wants to do the redirect, the question is is if they don't feel like todd blanche has been all that effective, if the prosecution does that much redirect with michael cohen, they may or todd blanche might calculate let me stop it an hour before the end of the day. let them do you want to you're going to try and end with michael cohen on thursday, if you can, you don't want him back on monday but i think that's how it's going to be hand either a quick power move that prosecutors do once in a while with a cooperator after a long aggressive cross, if you feel good about it as a prosecutor that you witnessed, stood up when the judge goes. okay. mr. thuban, redirect, you just stand up and go? no redirect, your honore. it's like we're good. >> i don't think they're gonna do that here. yeah. no, i don't think it signals to the jerry. he didn't he didn't hurt but a short redirect often accomplishes the same thing if you want to clean that up, but that is definitely a power move. and based on at least these first day, i could anticipate the prosecution doing just that. >> ronaldo's to be fascinated. thanks. thanks a lot, really appreciate it coming the former president had some political back backup today at the courthouse, so you can see all

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he says today. speaker johnson also profess the innocence of the foreign president called the trial a sham, is appearance slide former congresswoman january 6 committee vice chair at liz cheney to write this on x. i'm surprised that speaker johnson wants to be in the i cheated my wife with a porn star club. i guess he's not that concerned with teaching morality to our young people after all. and right here in new york, a big fundraiser headlined by the former president co-hosted by the parents of jared kushner. attendees include more contenders for trump's vp pick, including centers marco rubio, tim scott, and south dakota governor kristi noem, joining us to discuss it. cnn senior political commentator, david axelrod. she did not bring the dog. >> yes, lock up your dog. she says well what a bizarro. >> i mean, this really reflects how strange this campaign is. i mean, it used to be that vice presidential candidates would go to party dinners and they do

television and urgency on to sort of audition for the vice presidency. now they show up in court. in support of their candidate, who is on trial for what is on trial for and they're basically carrying his his his words out to the world. but i'm i'm relieved that speaker johnson has offended by people who don't always tell the truth. >> the trump campaign released a fundraising video that according to them were shot inside the courthouse today, lehrer trump, eric trump appearing it with vivek ramaswamy donald trump himself actually pops up to the anti, give a thumbs up. is that a first fund? raising appeal from a courthouse? >> i would think so, but yeah, i don't have anything to compare it to because we've never had a president who's been on trial in the middle of a campaign, either. but listen, it does speak to the place that donald trump is in right now in terms of the republican party, he is a force how they think he

is doing well in this campaign. these guys want to be vice president. that's why they're turning up. it's a command performance in some ways. and for speaker johnson, look, donald trump basically allowed him to survive it. he went down to mar-a-lago. he made his peace with trump and trump basically stood down. if he had put his shoulder to the wheel, he could have deposed johnson when marjorie taylor greene did what marjorie taylor greene did or certainly made it harder for him. so he is paying back a debt and buying an insurance policy on his feet future tenure as speaker of the house. >> jeff, do you think people like jurors notice who's in the courtroom behind i'm going to speak as a manhattan residents. >> i don't think a lot of manhattan residents know who mike johnson is or what he looks like. so i don't think that he wasn't actually in the courthouse today. i'll he wasn't that he just like it

was going to or fans or you know, i you know, to be honest, no. i don't think they notice now this all made me think of the way the kardashian name became famous was because robert kardashian who was technically a lawyer, but not really a lawyer was part of oj simpson's entourage during his trial. and that's how that name became famous. but here, i think this is much more of an inside political game to gain favor with donald trump than it is. to affect either the jury or even people in that trump is doing what trump did before the 2020 election. he is pre spinning a result and they are a betting that effort in delivering a message that this is a political trial, that there's no foundation for it, that michael cohen on is allying repro beit, who's spent on revenge this is all part of

what trump does so well, which is two kind of set the terms of the debate. so if things go badly he can say, well, we all know at this is about, it. can there there are now a party to caitlin you spoke to doug burgum about the trial. he was there. let's play that when you've got a a judge that donated to joe biden, when you've got prosecutors that supported joe biden, when you've got the judge's family members that you're benefiting financially as democrat operatives. >> and then when you've got as you just said, on the lead in this whole trial rests on the credibility of someone who spent three hours this morning describing in great detail how we lied to a grand jury, how we lied to congress, and how we lied in in court cases. and so this is just a tough thing. i mean, i prosecutions got a tough job to try to build their case on someone who's a serial perjure the one thing that

sitting there listening, michael cohen testify, which is of course who you're referring to. i mean, donald trump hired michael cohen for everything that you just said to me. that is the person donald trump chose to be his his personal attorney well, i think yes, that's true that he did hire them, but i think that you'll win the cross-examination you're going to come out. >> you heard a glimpse of it this morning that michael cohen leverage the title that he had. he wasn't even doing work for president trump and he was signing up clients left and right at 4 million in revenue leverage that it's actually interesting saying he wasn't even working for donald trump. >> that's part of the prosecution's evidence in the case. i don't think they're going to be calling i'm doug doug burgum as a witness, but i mean, it just shows that if you don't know the facts of the case, maybe you shouldn't talk so much. you better be careful. they're going to take that red tie back what's so interesting about this? >> i mean, this is also clearly

a tryout for people who either want to be vice president, people like doug burgum, or want to be in the cabinet are hoping donald trump trump will help them with their political fortunes. >> it wasn't that long ago when doug burgum was challenging donald trump for the republican nomination, he was asked if he'd ever do business with donald trump, but he said no and he said that the reason that was is because he just believes it's important that you're judged by the company you keep. >> now that he is seeking to be donald trump's vice president, he is obviously out there arguing on his behalf the other thing that i've also found interesting that we've heard from doug burgum and jd vance who seemed to be out vpn each other here, is they both criticize the judge's daughter. that is exactly what donald trump is doing when they expanded the gag order to prevent him from doing it. i asked doug burgum if donald trump instructed him to do so, which would violate the gag order. he said no, that he was it's just here as a volunteer started to keep harping on this, but we just showed in another photo a little wider shot or the one we just showed before that guy popped up in a red dye. that's cory mills of florida, byron donalds. >> me obviously reading there

are notes written on the back of those times yeah. can i say your you've obviously have a lot of advising democratic candidates for president. >> if you were advising the democratic nominee right now, would you tell them to go harder on? donald trump's pending legal troubles? put aside this hush money case. i know it has limited appeal, but how about the january 6 indictment? the classified documents, do you think joe biden should be doing more and more aggressively on that? >> look, i think that when you look at the people that he needs to get, i think the people who feel strongly about that issue, at least at this juncture, he's getting those people. he may be able to persuade so i'm at the end on this, the people he really needs to get in, the people who are hanging back and aren't as engaged, they're very much motivated by things like economic issues. and i think he has to draw a sharp contrast on some of those issues. now, in some ways, there's a lot of knowledge about this on that point. the other thing that doug burgum did say that i think does as resonate with voters when we look at the latest polls from the new york times and sienna is, he said

americans care more about their grocery bills and what's happening in that courtroom behind us. >> and i mean, that is a point that you don't hear from donald trump often when he comes and speaks to the cameras, but it is something that you have heard from a lot of these you yeah. listen, i've said from the beginning, if you're sitting around the kitchen two and i feel strongly about these democracy proceed issues. >> i think they are very, very important, but if you're sitting around the kitchen table talking about democracy in the future of democracy practice. you don't have to worry about the cost of the food on your table if you have to worry about that, it's more likely the thing on your mind and i think there i've been i've said before i think the president needs to lean into to those issues a lot more. he seems more intent on defending his economic performance and getting credit for the good work that he has done in many ways and not really advocating for people in tough economy because of the inflation, it would extra to get heavy. thank you. next more on the cross-examination of michael cohen i'm trump's demeanor during it all joined to someone else who was inside the courtroom well humpty dumpty,

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