speech at a catholic university in kansas and he made some statements that raised some eyebrows. let's listen to this bad policies and poor leadership have negatively impacted major life issues. >> things like abortion, ivf, surrogacy, euthanasia, as well as a growing support for degenerate cultural values and media all stem from the pervasiveness of disorder so pervasiveness of disorder degenerate cultural values, wrapping in ivf and surrogacy there. >> what do you think? >> i don't know exactly what he's saying, but he basically seems to want to go back 100 years in american progress. and that's not, that's not what we should do here in america. and maybe we should get people who aren't just whose credentials aren't just being grateful, ball players to give commencement speeches congress and bolton from massachusetts, we appreciate your time this morning. thanks so much for being on suing cnn new sephora will talk to you again soon it

is your job and thank you all so much for joining us. this is seen under central as johnson said it's metal coverage of the trump trial starts right now, this was cnn news central us federal a live view of the criminal courthouse here in manhattan, where we are told doctors legal team will be on a mission today, zeroing in on michael cohen's admitted and allege lies before president and all it is on his way to the courthouse right now is the defense's preparing to up where it left off, grilling trump's longtime fixer. >> you can see them there waving to the cameras as he gets into his motorcade. over the last 24 hours, trump's legal team it's been preparing for this moment for colin's returned to the witness stand. i'm told and plotting their strategy to undermine the prosecution's star witness. >> the question is whether they

can the jury, but also their client i'm kaitlan collins here in new york. >> object. saverin, washington dc. you're watching special seen in live coverage of former president donald trump's hush money cover-up while the cross-examination of michael cohen resumes just minutes from now, the trump team is hoping to shred cohen's credibility with the jury by focusing on his hi statements, including some he made under oath, a source saying it will take a long time to quoting now, get through the lights, were told that mr. for trump's defense is also expected to challenge cohen's testimony about conversations he had with mr. trump around the hush money payment to stormy daniels and the reimbursement as the prosecution alleges cohen's testimony has directly tied trump to the daniels payment and the alleged cover-up of that payment that according to cohen and according to prosecutors, was all designed to protect trump and his presidential ambitions in 2016 the prosecution says michael cohen will be, its final witness. it is not clear what

the defense will do after that, whether they're going to call mr. trump to the stand or call any additional witnesses? at all. >> cnn team of reporters and producers inside the courthouse are going to bring you constant updates to capture all the drama from this day of testimony. >> but let's go back to caitlin who has more of her new reporting on what exactly to expect today yeah. >> jake, obviously today is one of the biggest days for this file that has happened over the last several weeks and it's really going to be a test of the defense's strategy to try to undermine michael cohen. clearly, it's a stormy day. you're outside the courthouse, jake, it's also going to be so inside the courthouse because it's not just a strategy test of how they're going if you go after michael cohen, it's also whether or not they can please their client who is often had high and unrealistic, frankly, expectations for his legal team. and he has gone from braiding his legal team and private two praising them. he said two people that he thought todd blanche did a good job when he began cross-examining

michael cohen on tuesday. that's despite how blanche got a scolding really from the judge after he made the first two questions to michael cohen about the attorneys rather than about the defendant himself. we don't expect him to try to repeat that strategy today, and instead we'll just be grilling michael cohen himself. i mean, this is awesome. a test of michael cohen and what his prosecution or what his witness value is going to be. but it's also a test of how trump views is legal team. and in particular has lead attorney here, todd blanche. i've got cnn's paula reid and kristen holmes here with me and paula. i mean, it is not an understatement or an overstatement to say that this is the biggest de for this trial so far. >> yeah, that's exactly right. i mean, this is the game and here we expect the todd blanche will shift from ms strategy tuesday, which was really just kinda bad. michael cohen around a little bit, bring up his more sensational social media posts and instead focus on the substance of this case. let's go back to what he said in direct testimony. and what do you said previously about the alleged crimes here highlight his past inconsistent

statements. what happens today and how successful todd blanche can be. and it least convincing one juror that they should not pin this store decision on the testimony of michael cohen. this will really decide the case. >> the christian what have you heard? i mean, obviously works. i can trump to show up at the wideout. are the courthouse now the white else any moment he has going to have republicans with him, we believe you he's kind of been bringing a bunch of allies to the white house with, and we'll see who joined them in court today. but what have you heard about how he's been reflecting on this over the past 24 hours or so when he wasn't in court, will you have to fundraisers yesterday and i am told he was ranting about the case, but the big thing for him yesterday the focus was the fact that now he gets to actually debate joe biden. what i've been told in private is that donald trump wants this case to be over. he's been talking about it incessantly. he is done sitting in that courtroom. obviously. no surprise there as they wait for a verdict or wait for case to wrap and then wait for a verdict. but he is really trying to focus on the campaign and that's what you saw a lot of over the weekend. the other

thing i want to point out about what we're looking forward today is, can todd blanche throw michael cohen off? can you get him to be reactive? that is one of the things donald trump wants. donald trump has mentioned that to people saying that my cool cohen is always flying off the handle. he wants to see michael cohen react and i was told by some republican legal analysts that that might have been why todd blanche seemed all over the place on the last day of testimony, two days ago feels like the weekend, so i was buffs his those are our we time. yeah it's but on tuesday it was because they were trying to throw him off to see if you would be reactive in some way. look at the two people that we're really focused on run-up donald trump and michael cohen, which one of them is going to break first, both of them have been on their best behavior during michael cohen's testimony we'll see how today goes. yeah. trump shockingly, wasn't responding in the way that he was with stormy daniels on the stand with michael cohen, you read his eyes closed. there was one moment where a doctor, how much money michael cohen made, but it wasn't paula like what we

typically what anyone want to guess, even those who no trump, the best that he would do. and michael cohen's all the way to stand. that's right. and michael cohen also didn't do maybe what they would've expected, right? jumping around the timeline really highlighting some provocative things that he said trying to antagonize him. he was undeterred even though he was prepared for very linear chronological, direct examination, even on the sort of unusual, unorthodox approach that todd blanche took, he wasn't really shaken. that's why i think today you're going to see them go back to a more additional approach and instead focus on what he said because that'll really make or break the case, forget about making and breaking michael cohen on the stand. they need to undercut these criminal charges. >> cnn's elie honig is at the magic wall and ellie obviously, todd blanche is going to be picking up right where he left off on tuesday. he may not be doing the jumping around that we saw when they were trying to, as christian reported, their throat, michael cohen off. tell us exactly what we heard on tuesday and what we can expect today. >> the kaitlan pivotal day of testimony i had some really the make or break witness in this

whole trial, michael cohen. now, watch for todd blanche, donald trump's defense lawyer, to try to develop three main themes as he continues cross-examination today. first, bias turns out michael cohen, not a fan of donald trump's not anymore, at least now on tuesday blanche confronted michael cohen with for example, some of his more pure, i'll insults directed at donald trump, cheeto-dusted cartoon villain, but more importantly, with the fact that michael cohen has been openly and publicly yearning for donald trump to go to jail. he confronted michael cohen with his prior statement that quote, he trump goes right into that little cage, which is where he belongs in a blanking cage, like an animal well, and another thing michael cohen said, president trump needs to wear handcuffs and do the purple. that's relevant to michael cohen's credibility. we all know no breaking news that michael cohen dislikes donald trump. but remember, the jury can only go based on what they hear in the courtroom. so expect todd blanche to hit on that the second major theme, kaitlan, as you were talking about the prior lives, michael cohen has lied to virtually everyone. you can think of.

he's liked the courts. he's lied to congress prosecutors, banks, the media. now, on tuesday, todd blanche focused in particular on ally, that michael cohen told to robert baller, the special counsel, and to congress about donald trump's efforts to build a tower in moscow. michael cohen minimize that said ended way earlier than it did. and blanche confronted michael cohen with those lives. there was some dispute about how to categorize the leinz. they had a little back-and-forth. cohen said the information i gave was not accurate. plan said so is not accurate information, ally, they went back and forth cohen said, it's not i mean, bland said, is it ally? cohen said it was inaccurate? yes. blanche, it was a lie. whenever you want to call it, it was false testimony that cohen gave and the defense team will go today through michael cohen's prior convictions. now, back in 2018, michael cohen pled guilty in federal court to four crimes, all relating to honesty, campaign finance violations that relates to the payments to start for me, daniel's at issue in this case. false statements

to congress relating to the moscow tower and tax fraud and bank fraud that michael cohen committed on his own behalf relating to his own personal finances. now, the third and final theme to watch for today is that michael cohen has a financial motive. he's really created a minute mini industry off his public hatred for donald trump. we learned on tuesday that michael cohen, from his two books titled disloyal and revenge, made over $3 we also know that michael cohen has a profitable podcast. we learned that michael cohen is doing tiktok and selling subscriptions, apparently 5909 a month. and of course, michael cohen now has merch, including t-shirts and mug showing images of donald trump going to prison 32 bucks a pop. and so the argument will be, not only does michael cohen have a bias not lose very much, want to see donald trump convicted. not only does he have a prior history of wine, but he also has a financial motive. so it'll be a contentious day of cross examination. it's really all on the line today. jake, as we get ready for this key de to kick it back to you at the

desk. >> all right. well, i'm here with my panel, including former trump attorney tim parlatore. but let's start with some of the politics of this because one of the things that's going to be interesting, dana, is the prosecution has, as their main witness, whether you want to call them the star witness or not. he is the main witness. michael cohen and the plan of the trump team is to paint him as liar, liar. and they really don't have any shortage of material to work with. >> they don't. and we've seen so far in their cross-examinati on, liar, but also somebody who has a motive to try to get donald trump, somebody who wants to get revenge we talked last week about, or this week, whatever week it was and that the fact that that's actually the name of his book. and revenge, revenge. and so we've seen that theme. so far. >> i expect as you were saying, elie at the wall, that the lying part of it is going to be much more emphasized in the cross as they continue today.

>> and it's so obvious what they're trying to do, which is to put that colonel of reasonable doubt into the minds of the jury. even just wonder. and they hope that's the end of it. i i sort wonder if that motive though, might not cut both ways because the fact that he did live for donald trump helps explain why he could be being honest today, right? if there's this line in the sand where he stops lying for donald trump because he has this he explained this during direct examination that his family finally convinced him. okay. i want to stop doing this. i do wonder if that makes sense to a jury. if not only because michael cohen is far from the only person who has lied on behalf of donald trump, and that's their goal. the goal of the prosecution. i mean, that's the whole the whole ball game for them to convince the jury that yes, he sort of, found a higher spirit, a higher calling and said, i'm not going to live for donald trump

anymore. i think the question also is, how much the receipts, the documents that they have on the prosecution sayyed to back that up we'll realize it out with the jury but jeff zeleny, let me go to you because just put your juror had on for me. >> if do you work and i wanna go over some of the stuff that elie are already talked about because because i mean, this is this is not insignificant here is the defense getting cohen to admit about some of the rather pure real is not the word you use for your eye all or juvenile i mean this is not i mean, i can't read as to what lanny davis or whatever any prosecutors would have told michael cohen to do. but this is not what a prosecutor what prosecuting attorney would want a witness to have said. he said on your first this is todd blanche, the trump attorney on your first podcast. may a culpa you referred to president trump as a boorish cartoon.

misogynist, didn't you? cohen says, it sounds like something i would say. you recall the first one in 2020. you call them a chito dust and dusted cartoon villain. cohen, that also sounds like something i said question now, do you recall run that same time, october 2020, you started talking about your hope. they're president trump would be convicted of a crime, correct? answer. i don't know if these are the exact words that i said, but the sentiment is correct, quote, you think you might have said, i truly effing hope that this man ends up in prison is an exact answer. it sounds like my language on mea culpa, this is clearly a man with a mission and a grudge without it out and emission of revenge, like dana said, like his book says in very large type, look, every witness in any case that we've covered personally or watched on television is not perfect. and michael cohen is certainly exhibit a of a not perfect witness. however, the receipts that dana talked about are clearly what the prosecution is

hoping to jurors focus on that picture in the white house briefing room. that moment he went to the white house in early february of 2017. i keep going back to that because so unusual at that moment for him to be there, but i think the jurors we're going to have to throw a lot of things out. some of the stormy daniels salacious testimony, some of the chito conversation, and focus on the facts, but that is the question. it takes one juror here, i think his demeanor on the stand today is also as important as it has been for the last couple of days, just he managed to not lose his cool. and i think that certainly will help him appear credible in the eyes of jurors. but look, he's not a perfect witness. of course. >> so i'm laura, let me ask you this. was defense attorney todd blanche is first exchange with michael cohen when cross-examine examination began on tuesday, so question mr. cohen. my name is todd blanche. you and i have never spoken are met before. have we answer? we have not question, but you know who i am, don't you answer? i do question as a matter of fact, on april 23rd. so after the trial started in this case,

you went on tiktok and called me a quote, crying little, didn't do answer. sounds like something i would say this was the prosecution objection. it was struck from the record, i think because it had to do with plant himself and not the case. but what was the point of that i question why he would come out of the gate like that because it has a different impact. >> if your suggestion is that michael cohen has a bias against donald trump singularly, the fact that he makes humans that are kras or otherwise about everybody is kinda like the statement level. this is a universal or equal opportunity jerk that doesn't actually help you to form a bias against trump. he was actually criticized by the judge about why are you making this all about me now, i may have saved that down the line if there was a contentious moment with michael cohen to suggest and explain his demeanor or a treatment towards me as an you don't want to answer my questions, you actually don't like me, but i wanted just for a second, have a different take on how you use other prosecution's talking about these things. it is absolutely true. and of course, i'm gonna go to my tablet, but it is absolutely true that not that michael cohen does not

like him now, but an effective prosecution looks at this. the michael cohen's views over time and is change of heart you want to freeze and the jurors mind how he used to feel at the time when all this was actually happening in 2015, he called him a good man, a man who cares by his family man who tells it straight. he talks about september 2016 and being generous and compassionate principled, and empathetic. it was this changed in 2018? mind you after of course, the inauguration that he would no longer live hi for the press, the united states. and then after that, you've got the chito comments and the going to prison and et cetera. and then two dennis point as well, this idea of a changed person, the moral compass, if you're a prosecution in this case, you want people focus on not how we feel is now, but at the moment in time that he actually did the 34 counts of the falsified business records because at that moment that's what's important. >> so ellie, do you have an idea why blanche would start with that? because it does kind of make it seem as though michael cohen is kind of just like a shoot from the hip jerk and not necessarily focused

entirely on trump as a motive. well, i think it was mistake to open the way at todd blanche opened. i absolutely never would have done it. it was properly sustained. first of all, it's not the point. it's not the plate. does michael cohen hate todd blanche? the point is, michael cohen hates and desperately wants the defendant donald trump in prison. let me give you what i would have started with. we'd like to play armchair prosecuted now that we're no longer actual prosecutors first question would have been mr. cohen, are you a perjure? okay. if he says yes, great, folks. he's a perjure. he says no, then you just hidden with dozens of leinz that he's like he is a perjure. i mean, that's a fact. >> so it leaves them it's a win-win. >> you want to start safe. i thought it was a misstep by blanche. i actually was not impressed with blanche's cross the two hours or so that either on tuesday at all, i thought it was meandering an unfocused. >> so tim, there is some talk of whether the defense is going to present its own case and a robust finishing or small fashion. it's not unprecedented by the way, obviously, as you know, but maybe not for our viewers to just say they haven't proven their case, the defense rest to what usually my

preference what would you do if you were if you were defending down trump on this case i think in this case, they are going to present a defense. >> i would present yeah, somewhat of a minimal defense i don't think they should present whole bunch of witnesses. bob castello is one witness that i think that there definitely going to present beyond that, i know that they've been talking about possibly an expert because there are issues with these records of whether they actually constitute business records. you got to remember the majority of these checks came out of his personal yeah. >> and so they may do some type of a technical defense on that but beyond that, maybe bob because stoller maybe somebody else to bear on cohen's credibility. but i don't think a lengthy defense and i certainly don't think donald trump himself testifying is helpful. >> yeah so we'll have more on who bob castello is later in the program. >> in addition, we didn't met, we did. he was mentioned i think on to tuesday, but in addition to that, he testified before congress, i believe

yesterday will bring you more explanation as to who that is. because that is somebody that the trump team considers to be a credible witness against michael cohen when donald trump's historic criminal trial resumes any minute, we're gonna get a fuller sense of just how far the defense is willing to go. oh in its attack on michael cohen's credibility or special live coverage is just getting started right now, a quick break i brought in a juror max protein with 30 grams of protein. >> those who tried me felt more energy and just two weeks here, i'll take that ensure knocks protein 30 grams protein one prim sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic it's, simply say if your safety is the only thing that matters. we designed smarter ways to detect motion

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law. >> and without political influence we have gone to sure that they committees get responses to their legitimate requests but this is not one. to the contrary, this is one that will harm our ability in the future to successfully pursue sensitive investigations. now, there have been a series of unprecedented and frankly, unfounded attacks on the justice department this request, this effort to use content as a method of obtaining are sensitive law enforcement files is just the most recent the effort to threaten to defund our investigations at the way in which there are contributions to an atmosphere that what's our agents and our prosecutors at risk. these are wrong look,

the only thing i can do is continue to do the right thing. i will this building and its people want respond. >> you can answer this just now, but i was wondering, like, you know what these this combined with efforts, did jack smith and other attacks on vitamin restoration officials say about, the broader effort to discredit you and to disappointed the justice department and also how would you manage that? how are you resisting that? and what can you do about that as attorney general, we have to go about our work following the federal principles of prosecution. they said as while the facts and the law, we screen out outside inappropriate influences, that's what we're doing here. we're protecting our ability the continue to do high-profile and sensitive investigations, and we will continue to do that mr. harry, last question it narrows seems vanished. link back. that's now seen

vanishingly small. that the two jack smith federal cases are going to begin trial let alone finish trial this year. what does that say about the pace of the justice system and confidence in this justice department. >> what the special counsel brought both cases last year. he appropriately requested speedy trials. the matter is now in the hands of the judiciary, and i'm not gonna be able to comment further. >> so what do you want me to go to the epidemic spread yet? all right, so that was attorney general merrick garland and just to bring you up to speed, what's going on? is it house republicans led by the chairman of the judiciary committee, congressman jim jordan of ohio and the chairman of the oversight committee, congressman james comer of kentucky are pushing to get the audio of the special counsel, robert hur's interview with president biden. you might remember that in that report in

which special counsel her said that they were not going to prosecute joe biden. they didn't think the case would be prosecuted because joe biden would come across well to the jury. and as an elderly man with a poor memory so that said the republicans in congress want that audio what is the purpose of that? let's discuss what is the purpose of trying to get that audio well, i mean, that the members of congress, the republicans in charge of that committee argue it's for oversight, are argue it's for the public record but we know the reason that they want to get that audio. are you suggesting to embarrass joe biden? >> yeah. yeah. i mean, that's i'm not saying i'm not saying that the public record and for all of us in the american citizens to get more information is not valid. >> yeah. and if that was the sole mission and motivation

okay. >> as i mean, as journalists, we want all of everything least all the time absolutely, absolutely having said that a casing, now we're talking about this in case no, you want to add to this? >> just the cuellar graphy of what just happened, that it was the attorney general who almost never speaks out about this stuff, came out and said what he said, and defended the president because he is facing a contempt of congress exactly a threat from congress for not turning over from, from republicans were not turning over this audio. >> yeah. and i just think we should dig into what we saw from america, ireland there, at joe biden selected to run his justice department in an incredibly charged environment with an outgoing president in the wake of january 6. and merrick garland was designed to try to protect the department of justice to make it seem unimpeachable, quite literally, no pun intended two and he candles the special counsel situation, the prosecution of donald trump in a way that a

lot of democrats were very frustrated by because he was so reluctant to put his justice department into a perceived political position. and for him to actually come out there and make that very strong statement about how there are all these comments that have been made about the justice department to say that these threats against his what has happened to some of his prosecutors amount to threats to their safety he is entering this conversation that we are collectively having as a country that isn't conversation in a way, i don't think we've the merrick garland do before. >> i mean, he's not the reason he is speaking is not to be a spokesperson for the white house. he is the central character here because he is being called by these committees for contempt of congress for not authorizing the release of this. i mean, that's why he is speaking as he was walking out to an fbi memorial. so legally this may be very sound what the lawyers talk about this politically, the optics of this clearly are not very good and this is something we are going to be hearing about repeatedly, is my gef for the next five. all right. so let us, let us return now to the other legal matter

going on. >> right now, which is in court. lawyers are approaching the bench. judge merchan is on the bench. we're told that eric trump and congressmen matt gaetz, republican of florida, one of donald trump strongest supporters in congress are there in the courtroom and, and what are we expecting today? what is going to happen next well, they're going to talk more to be cross-examination of michael cohen. >> they expect to have them on for quite some time. remember, there's no court tomorrow, so this is not there. perhaps this is their final bite of the apple today. it might actually go into next week because their entire case for the defence hinges on. they hope it's planting a seed of doubt as the credibility of michael cohen said that today might be the last de, that today it could be the last de, but it won't be. lastly of this particular trial. we don't no. >> i mean, of cross, it could it could be depending on how it goes. of course, we know that they're going to end in terms of the government's case in chief michael cohen. but going beyond that, but ultimately, the jury is going to hear a lot more about why they should disbelieve michael cohen.

they're going to paint him as the liar, liar pants on fire. they're going to suggest that he has a bias against trump, that he has a soul singular focus are trying to get him in jail at the expense of telling the truth. now, from the rehabilitation part of this, the prosecution, they're going to say, yes, he has told you the truth about being a liar. he has pled guilty to a number of things. there is somebody here who wants you to believe that he's innocent, can't believe that person. so i mean, it is i think that they have made the point and i'm not sure i actually think it was the prosecution who made the point in this has been lucrative for michael cohen. he is made 3.4 million on to books switches a lot of money for two for books, having written books, i can tell you that's a lot. that's not when i made this. and and, the idea that there is money, there's gold in them there hills, for michael cohen and the resistance, joining the resistance being seen as somebody who is do. you remember the cartoon of robert

muller as a superman flying in the sky and then michael avenatti was there joining him to fight the fight, i mean, this is how the resistance thinks and there's hundreds of millions of dollars to be made and he's making some of them it is for them to go through the bias. >> i think it's important that you have the prosecution did bring it out. i think it's more important for them to go through the past lies, but even there, you have to cut the lies up into categories. because if you just go through the lies, i mean, for example, you lied the congress to minimize trump tower in moscow. that's not helpful because those are lies that he was lying to allegedly helped donald trump, right? so if you're saying, hey, back when they're back when you lied to say trump didn't do anything wrong, the reality is he did do something wrong. that's not what you want to say, is it faster? so you have the lies to protect donald trump. you have lines to protect himself but the key the thing that would be pure gold is if they can bring out lies that he told on direct, right? if they can show that he lied about something in this

courtroom. that's far more valuable than than all of the history of lies that he has to congress and everybody else. so one thing is one-half point why do one thing i want to bring up. >> we talked about you talked about rob costello, who is an attorney who reached out to michael cohen on behalf of rudy giuliani during the period before michael cohen flipped and rob costello testified before congress yesterday. i just want to give a little bit of that because it's possible that the defense will call all pop castello as a witness to further undermine michael cohen. that's roll that clip. if we can what he tries to do as he picks out cherry picks, shirt and emails or text messages and tries to make them look like something else. >> the story he told yesterday was that rudy giuliani and i wish somehow conspiring to try and keep him quiet to try and keep them from flipping. that's the term we use in the trade for cooperating that's ridiculous mr. costello, there

presumably under oath before congress and that is what the jury will hear if the defense calls him. >> what do you call? bob costs you unquestionably. i've talked about castello extensively. and first of all, he didn't reach out to call on at the behest of rudy giuliani. this is before rudy giuliani represent the president but michael column reached out to his partner, mr. citroen, and then they brought bob castello in and bob castello sat with michael cohen extensively to try and convince him to cooperate against donald trump and mco. calm, didn't have anything now, later, and this is what he was talking about there when michael cohen did decide to try and cooperate with the southern district of new york. he tried to claim the bob gastel them pretty giuliani were dangling a pardon to try to get them to stay the course they opened an investigation, a criminal investigation into bob gastel and rudy giuliani for witness tampering. they brought bob castello in and what he talked about was he went in and he brought all the emails and

tax and he showed them all of that. and that's when the us attorney's office said, okay, you guys didn't dangle a pardon? michael cohen was begging for a pardon. and that's when they decided not to give them a cooperation agreement and that's when the us attorney's office walk away from an entirely and all of those emails that he has showing the lie he told to the us serious office, which is identical to the lie. he said on direct days ago. very interesting. all those emails alvin bragg have very interesting, aren't caitlin back to you in new york? >> argue that as a violation and the judge had to figure it out. >> yeah. jake, obviously, we are watching this closely prosecutors and the defense team are at the bench. is often held the day starts out in court. this is a moment where are you watching in the courtroom cannot hear what is being discussed. they're often talking to the judge sometimes how things that trump has said, sometimes witnesses that they plan to bring or how long on this plans to go, we'll wait to see what discussion is underway right now. and paula reid and

kristen holmes are back here with me and paulette. we just heard from trump when he walked into the courtroom, he often speaks to the camera as he came out, he had a trail of lawmakers but and candidates behind him. but there was one moment where he was talking about matthew colangelo's, who as we all know, is a prosecutor on the disk, attorneys team. he did not say him i mentioned him by name, but this is what trump had to say lead person from the doj is running the trial so biden's office is running this this trial is and it's a sham. >> and it shouldn't happen. >> thank you so in addition to one and not being true, that president biden is running this trial. >> obviously, trump has indicted by a jury here in manhattan. it is the district attorney's office that is handling this. >> the question is whether that's a violation of the gag order because of the gag order was expanded precisely because he was attached backing this prosecutor in direct are directly he's allowed to criticize alvin bragg, but he's not allowed to attack the

other prosecutors on this team. that's exactly right. i would expect the prosecutors will try to argue that this is a violation because that's a bit of a dogwhistle, right? i'll lead person from the doj is running the trial to biden's office is running the trial. and the reason there's a gag order is to protect people who are doing their jobs either folks showing up serve on the jury, right. or folks who are witnesses, or here prosecutors and the fact that trump is tying him to president biden, that's gonna be a dog whistle for his support. borders that he could possibly face. angel could potentially face retaliation. this is the kind of thing that the gag orders mentioned protect. i would expect that prosecutors will bring this to the attention the judge. it's unclear if they heard this here, but i would expect they'll products and litigation about this next week, it's unclear how the judge will see this, but this does appear to possibly be a violation yeah and. you can't actually hear what trump is saying when you're inside the courtroom, the prosecution team has already in there, but alvin bragg's not in there. he doesn't often come inside the court. it's only been in there

are handful times and it's also very clear who trump is talking about because this is the one prosecutor on alvin bragg's team besides alvin bragg that he's attacked? >> yeah. i think this is donald trump going rogue remember he is had multiple briefings with his lawyers on how not to violate the gag order. i know we talk all the time about how donald trump can't control itself, which is true. but there are two things that donald trump does doesn't want. he doesn't want to spend any more money and he doesn't want to go to jail so he has been trying to stay within the means and he really has since that first time that he crossed the line and got fired my $9,000 again, who's find later, but he has not crossed are violated the gag order for those reasons, he has been briefed by lawyers. lot of a social media post goes through lawyers. they're vetted before they're actually posted. now it can say about the ones that three in the morning, but there are some that are looked at by certain attorneys before he puts them out because they don't want him violating the gag order. he has been briefed on how to walk all the way up to the line, but not cross it. now, we will see whether or not the prosecution takes us up and whether or not the judge thinks

he crossed it here. but again, he's been breached and what not to do. >> and of course, all those lawmakers behind him have gone out on television. the ones who have been there in previous days and done exactly what he is barred from doing through this gag order. we also former new york supreme court judge, diane qizan here with us judge, when you hear that comment from donald trump obviously, a lot of this is all up to judge marshi to make the ultimate decision. vision of whether or when trump violated the gag order. >> but based on just what you've heard, do you believe that that is a violation certainly. good morning. by the way. yes, i would certainly consider very seriously any application by the people at this point to bring it to my attention as another possible violation of the gag order this idea that somehow mr. colangelo's has been personally shipped to new york from the department of justice, has been floating around the pro-trump circle for awhile. people in prosecutorial

positions change jobs quite often. there's no evidence whatsoever that he was specifically sent here to do president biden's bidding. that's absurd and more to your, more to your point. >> it could more to misreads point it does it definitely could put this man on the radar screen of people who might send threats might be disturbed at him for taking on this role. >> and it could endanger him. so i would consider it very seriously. brought to my attention and i should note right now inside the courtroom, trump is linked back in his chair as the sidebar where the attorneys are up there speaking would the judge is underway? >> they have not yet brought in michael cohen, the witness, but judge, just on that on that note, if the judge merchan here does find that it is a violation of the gag order i mean, the last time we heard from him when trump violated the gag order, he said that jail time was on the table in a serious way. >> and it could well be and what a headache that would be

at this stage of the proceeding, right when they're almost looking at the finish line. but remember, there is jail and there's jail. judge merchan could choose to do something like a park mr. trump in a cell behind the courtroom for the lunch hour, for example, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to put them on a bus and send them to rikers island. taste of jail might be what he would need to stop this. i do find it fascinating though that it has been awhile, hasn't it? since there have been a such allegations. so so i'm a little surprised that mr. trump is tip toed in that water again yeah, he had been getting all this credit for not violating the gag order after he did so ten times. >> and now we'll see if this constitutes that, judge. obviously michael cohen is about to get back on the witness stand for cross-examination by trump's defense lawyers. >> that didn't seem that they achieved any knockout blows even in trump's orbit view on

tuesday, if todd blanche is going to have a successful day, what does it need to look like in your view? well, i think he has must be careful from watching the way jurors respond to cross-examination over the years, remembered less is more. okay. he's got a score some direct hits, and then sit down. he's got to show that michael cohen is biased that, he hates trump, that he's been a convicted liar, that he has benefited financially. very financially from the lies against trump. and he has to show that it was really mr. cohen and mr. weisselberg who hatched this plan and donald trump's simply sign checks and was none the wiser so far. >> he's done some of that. has he completely succeeded? i don't know. >> there's something that michael cohen keeps saying. >> it sounds every time he gets hit with an alleged lie from the past, he says things like it sounds like something i

would have said right? so he's kind of adopting it without really saying, yeah, i said it i mean, i would hit hard on that if i were todd blanche, i'd say, well, if he said it sounds like something, i would have said i would've said, well, di would just keep pushing him until he either s cool or admitt or backs off and right now, judge, i mean, that's a great great point because that is michael cohen is kind of admitting it without acknowledging that he he did make that comment. >> we'll see i'll todd blanche handles it today, but right now, there's a pretty lengthy sidebar going on its own, 9402 and right now, susan necheles is sitting the defense table, one of trump's attorneys chatting with him. the others are up there speaking with the judge when you're in the room as we're lucky enough to have been because this is so much more important to be there in the room to actually be able to talk about what it's like to be in the room. >> but you can't hear what

they're talking about. >> they are in discussions with the judge, the defense, the prosecution and the judge. no one else can hear it. if the jury's in the room, they can't hear it as well. and what's your sense of how crucial those moments are without us knowing what they're discussing. testing at this moment. it can form or shape what a day is going to look like with a testimony is going to look like who potentially is going to be on the witness stand those sidebar there's are very, very important. >> it means that somebody is telling the judge who knows they could be telling the judge what mr. trump just set outside. right. we don't know what's going on in that sidebar. they could be plotting what's going to happen for the day. they could be talking about schedules, the judge could be chewing somebody out. the judge could just be listening to various legal positions these side is making. but one thing is very important and i remember this well, you've got to keep your voices down. you've got to keep that expression off of your face, right? because the jury is watching this, even if they can't hear it, they're

looking at it and body language is key at those sidebars. and facial expressions. i don't have the best poker face, so i always put my back to the jury you have been both, judge. it's been going on for 17 minutes now. the good news is with a transcript comes out about 12 hours from now. we will know sidebar. we will obviously be paying close antigen, judge qizan, great to have you joining us. thank you for that. >> and right down the sidebar this moment where the prosecution, the defense team, and judge merchan are having in conversations still underway. right now. we're following that and also bring you constant updates. once michael cohen is back on the stand, in moments, you are watching students, special live coverage before the bell brought to you by cfp professional spines, your cfp professional today, yet let's

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trump hush. money trial gavel to gavel coverage. >> the way only cnn can bring it to you, legal insight, expert analysis, and real-time updates live from the courtroom follow the facts follow the testimony, follows cnn we have some new pictures of donald trump in the courtroom. >> they allow photographers at the very beginning, as we are standing by for round two of the cross-examination by trump's defense team of michael cohen in the hush money cover-up trial. there was just an unused initially lengthy sidebar involving the lawyers and judge merchan ended last about 20 minutes and ended in short while ago, judge war, sean said, i apologize for all the whispering. he said that to the jury. presumably, we're going to find out more details about what that was all about. we should also note that in court today supporting donald trump is an extensive list of

republican members of the house of representatives. this is courtesy of the trump campaign. there we have congress, people full mike waltz and bob good. dayana harsh burger and matt gaetz and andy biggs and eli crane. and ralph norman and lauren boebert and michael cloud and andy ogles. and congresswoman anna paulina luna. a lot of people there to show their support before donald trump. i want to turn now to former apprentice star amoroso. i'm going to go newman, who previously served as a trump adviser and then split from donald trump, famously writing the book, unhinged and insights account of the trump white house amoroso. thanks for joining us. uh, you know, michael cohen. well, have you talked to him? recently how is. he doing during this aggressive cross-examination yeah. >> i talked to him often. i talked to him before the trial started in a couple of days back, and he was completely

locked in. >> i really do believe that folks are underestimating michael cohen and how focused t is about what he has to do as a witness. >> and we've seen that how discipline and how focus, how clear and concise he's been in responding. and i think that you'll continue to see that even as they attempt to agitate him and provoking donald trump has famously hands-on. there was a moment. trump's lawyers had a day off in the middle of the cross-examination of stormy daniels and there was a noticeable shift in questioning when court resumed. and a lot of legal experts speculating that this was done to appease donald trump by the lawyers and also to convince him that he didn't need to violate the gag i go order to go after stormy, daniel's because they would do it for him in court how involved just having worked with donald trump, how involved do you think your former boss is when it comes to actually playing a role in the defense team's plans let's first of

all, donald thinks that he is the smartest person in the room. he thinks that he is smarter than the attorneys that he knows best. and he talks very often his books and his speeches about his gut his instincts. and so he is probably leading with his gut in his instinct instead of following sound legal theory and principles. and there's no question that he he is directed them to go after michael cares less about the legal outcome, but more about scoring points. and i think that that's a losing strategy, jake here, we should just note inside the courtroom right now, donald trump leaning over channing with his attorney, emil bove vey while michael cohen walked by into the courtroom, the former president did not look toward cohen the way get the courtroom is set up the witnesses come in behind the defense table and then go are round in order to get up onto the witness table. so it is possible for them to never ever actually lock eyes. the defense's strategy is to paint. cohen as a serial liar. and there is no shortage of paper trail on that topic. why do you think the jury will believe

what he has to say i think i believe him because michael has this gift to connect with people. >> he's probably building a rapport with a jury and maybe folks are underestimating that he can make a connection, that he can cut through everything that they paint did of him. certainly, he has told lies in the past. he did that on behalf of donald trump, but he's trying to make amends and he's trying to set things right. and i think that the jury will see his sincerity and his effort to try to at least put things back on the right track. >> donald trump's famous thrift, shall we say we're told will be used by the defense as evidence by saying that it's not likely that donald trump would have agreed to pay $130,000 to stormy daniels. he he is proudly frugal. >> again, that's a term i'll use right now. >> might that work well with

one exception, i don't know if you recall at the latter part of the election in 2016, donald was forced to actually put his own money on the line for the campaign. >> he didn't want to but he did it very begrudgingly. this is the same case here. >> donald wanted to win the election. >> he was willing to pay the money to keep this story about storage stormy daniel's from getting out and so he came up off the money. this is why this is a violation of campaign finance because he's willing to pay money to win and that is the connection. that is the exception. you're absolutely right, donald is frugal, but he's also paying attention to every penny that leaves his bank accounts. so trying to sell the jury that he had no idea that checks that he's writing that is completely contrary to how donald trump operates. >> do you think he will testify? >> there's a side of me that thinks that the showman and donald, the desire to get up and perform. he thinks that he

can convince anyone if he says things over and over again, that those things are true. >> so there's a sayyed of me that thinks that his ego, his narcissistic tendencies wants to testify but i also know that he sees the legal jeopardy in that and that would probably still his fate. >> so i'm going to say no, jake alma rosa, amanda got newman. thank you so much for joining us. here today. todd blanche is back at the podium and the cross-examination of michael cohen has risen elie honig i'm not sure where they left off the other day, but but there is there is a certain degree it to a point in which jury fatigue can set in and you don't want to arounds their anger by belaboring the for sure you have to be aware of that as a trial lawyer on either side, a full day of cross is a lot and they're going to judge it on whether this is relevant or whether

this is just nonsense by the way, we should know there was an update that came by jake while you are interviewing amoroso that said there may actually be court this coming wednesday. >> yeah. judge said that if any juror cannot sit on wednesday, they will not, but they might have caught on wednesday, which tells me they're starting to think about potential end game. if for example, cohen's cross finishes today than the defense case happens on monday and then they close on tuesday. judges will have jurors come in, even on what used to be off days to deliberate so there may be an inkling that this thing is headed towards a potential quicker ending point that right now michael cohen is being asked about his interactions with a former investigator with the district attorney's office to whom cohen gave his phones in 2023. what's that about? well, remember there has been a assistant drumbeat by the lawyers for trump to suggest that cohen manipulated his phones and some way or that there was an infamous phone call. i keep calling a phone call, the infamous conversation between trump and himself that he reported on his phone, on

his phone that later going to show he says as an innocent explanation to david pecker to try to quell his anxiety about whether good actually paid for karen mcdougal, whether the jury believed that or not, but there's still a concerted effort which is why you heard from the prosecution. they were there by the way, they sidebar the judge's bench. this after a pretty lengthy sidebar already happened this morning. i think about 20 minutes long, so we don't yet know what they were talking about and why the judge did apologize for all the whispering which has happened to the bench with you're on. but at the end of the day, i mean, comey has been shown versions of text messages and beyond. they're going right back to his own words. they're being used against them as elie points that earlier and i want to go back to just the way in which they are going to use it. i mean, the words are gonna be used as weapons, whether it's his book sales, whether it's his podcast, the merchandise that he has, the comments that he's made about donald trump. but again the biggest text that's important here, the star witness are 34 falsified business records. if the prosecution is unable to reorient the conversation towards that or if the defense

it gets so far away from matt that fatigue at the jurors, the idea of what what do we still here for consent in? what would it tell you if the defense doesn't address that at all? well, to me, that would be a huge mistake not to address the falsified records because this is the core of the issue. they have to point out whether he had actual knowledge of it whether it's just him and allen weisselberg did not talk about it means they leave the opportunity for judges, the juries that thank whereas on weisselberg, why is he not being mentioned here on it? if they don't address it there showing you that they only believed the jury thinks about whether or not michael cohen is a credible and reliable narrator right now inside the courtroom, we should just note just to just update everybody cohen is being showed jonah redacted versions of texts that he exchanged with this investigator with the district attorney's office at the defense attorney's table at the defense desk. trump is whispering with his attorney, emil bove a while. michael cohen is reviewing these messages. >> this is picking up where they've cross-examination left off on tuesday, one of the narratives that the prosecution wants to put in front of the

jury is michael cohen made a clean break from donald trump. he came forward, he did the right thing because he had this moment of conscientiousness or conscience. but the prosecution has pointed out that michael cohen was shopping himself and his potential testimony foreign why he was begging. he tried to cooperate with robert muller, didn't work out in part because he lived two molar about congress tried to offer himself to the southern district of new york. they said, no, thank you. we don't find you fully credible. he even tried to get in an offer himself to the da very early on while he was still three months into his what was supposed to be three or presence it and so the argument that trump's team is making here is this is not some altruist who's seen the light. this is a guy who came forward because a, the usual reason people cooperate because he wanted to get out of prison early and be he has this longstanding intense while not longstanding, but intense, recent grudge against donald trump prosecution brought that up as well though because they were pointing out that he tried to get a letter from them to show that he was somehow cooperate ever to get some good graces. i think the prosecution also wanted that raise. it suggests rally that hold on. this whole narrative that he's

only cooperating for our benefit, which is what normally remedy was time swaths of don't make the texts out of khan take the text out of contact. cohen says, i believe so she then objects to them coming into evidence and the lawyers are at the bench and the judge is sustaining the objection. >> so what exactly does that mean, tim interests if you're on the other side, you're allowed to just pop up and say something when any sayyed once to offer some exhibit into evidence. so here the defense is trying to offer some text messages there's and they've redacted certain portions out. when you offer that into evidence. the other side has the opportunity to get up in voir dire or asked witness further questions to challenge the admissibility of that, whether it's the authenticity or in this case, whether it is a fair and accurate

representation or have they did susan hoffinger already have them had the default party? yeah. okay. this will be the texts which i find very interesting from the 2023, turning over of his phone. so these are all the text messages relatively recent and so that if it wants to show his bias or potential lies after he has so-called seeing the light. >> so here we are blanche on trump's attorney is asking if michael cohen said he was going to hold president trump accountable in one of the texts. >> if that's exactly what it is, he's he's trying to show the bias and he's chopping himself to this investigator and saying what he wants to do as opposed to what you want to witness to say, which is i just want to tell the truth well, although i will say going to hold president trump accountable is a lot more reasonable sounding than some of the other things we've heard that michael cohen said, it is, but it's still not where you want to have between a witness in an investigator. this is a g-rated version of i wanted to

block in a cage like an animal which you said earlier. i also think it's important people understand justice how unusual of a star witness, michael cohen is. on the one hand, he's not trying to work off time. most cooperators have are looking at 15 years sentences. and this testimony will be are there key to get out early? that's the way it works. that's not really an issue with cohen. it was early on, but to have this kind of personal animus, this type of personal ambition about the guy getting convicted and sent to prison is really, really unusual. >> making money off and making money. >> yeah. >> you can see why kaitlan collins this was a debate within the district attorney's office as well as within robert mueller's office in the southern district of new york office as to whether or not michael cohen was good enough as a witness to bring a case against donald trump muller said no. southern district of new york said no the district attorney ultimately said yes, but there was a real back-and-forth about whether or not alvin bragg was going to take the case. caitlin

absolutely. >> jake. it caused quite some consternation inside his office when he first was elected to that office. and paula reid and kristen holmes is we're watching all this play out todd blanche is acting if this detail objective, who was suspended last summer, i believe from the district attorney's office confirmed to michael cohen at trump had been indicted based on news reports, not something that had been publicly announced by bragg's office. trump had been was indicted last march. obviously, we were all covering it live when that happened as all this was going on. but todd blanche one thing that is clear is these beginning this cross-examination is he's getting into the substance of michael cohen's interactions with the district attorney's office. he's not reading his texts. he's not taking the same tack that he was on tuesdays, so it was a noticeable change beginning today. yeah. this is the cross examination. he has to get into the substance of exactly what has transpired. our during the course of this investigation. >> and also what michael cohen testified on the stand because that's what the jurors are going to use to make their

decision. >> now, bringing up something like this, detective rosenberg the questions about possible improprieties behind the scenes, what this does is this highlights for the jurors a question about whether there was some sort of bias, some sort of collusion behind the scenes between was clearly a hostile witness to the defendant and the prosecutors investigating him. so it's unclear exactly where how far blanche will take this, but this is too again raise doubt in the minds of at least one juror about michael cohen, but doesn't todd blanche de to kinda pull the jury into his line of questioning because you're the reports on tuesday, were that they looked kind of board or maybe confused and they will give a lot of way as he was going to look at the place. i mean, he has to tell a convincing narrative, not just to throw michael cohen off, but to, but to appeal to the jury. >> yeah. i think that they tried something on tuesday and that was to try to knock michael cohen because game here now blanche is asking if this detective told cohen that the da's office told the new york

times about the indictment. cohen says, no, sir. when asked whether detective told him there was an indictment before it was unsealed. so colon appearing to try to tamp down the suggestion that there was some sort of back channel about what the outcome of this investigation was but yes, i do think that todd blanche eventually needs to get back to the meat pug this case, what is at the heart of this case because on tuesday, you tried to throw cohen off his game by asking them questions. it was all over the timeline not really about allegations of falsifying business records, and it's not clear that really got them anywhere. i didn't throw cohen and it really didn't attack the case we've also had three sidebars already this morning where the latest one the prosecution objecting over certain texts that they wanted to show to add some redacted and essentially arguing wouldn't paint the whole picture for the jury, serving the jury's not just listening, you're listening to michael cohen. >> they're also looking at what he said about trump at the past, what he's texted his messages as well. >> right. and i think for the jury, it's an interesting moment because it continues to have objection after objection. after objection. so clearly

something is going on here in this line of questioning. now, obviously, they're going to have to piece together what exactly that looks like. but i do think this is an interesting turn in the questioning of cohen because the 40s in self-questioning, cohen's credibility now he's undermining the investigation using cohen and this relationship. we know that he's going to try to paint cohen as a liar, that he's going to go back to some of the comments that he's made, that he's going to once again delve into his book. but this now goes to the heart of the investigation and he's crying to undermine the investigation using cohen and using in cohen's dislike of donald trump's, i want to bring in criminal defense attorney david oscar marcus, who is joining me now, and obviously, i should also note that you were once offered to be trump's sought you out to potentially be on his legal team for another case, the one and florida. i believe. and as you're watching this, you are not the attorney being the room here today. but what do you believe david is the most important thing for todd blanche to do as he is

developing this line of questioning of michael cohen it's poor die de for the defense. caitlin. i mean, i think todd needs a knockout punch today to win this case. they need to really undermine michael cohen and they need to make the case all about michael cohen. it's i think it's risky for the prosecution to end their case with their just incredible witness. and this is what the jury is going to be left with for the whole weekend and an enclosing next week, if i'm the defense lawyer, i make it all about michael cohen. i say it's not about whether the president had sex with stormy daniels or whether he paid stormy daniel's. it's about these false business records and here's why you can't believe cohen and right now, todd blanche is bringing up cohen when he went on cnn in march of 2023, just over a year ago, and kinda refer to this as david versus goliath. >> obviously himself and former president trump. and right now, cohen is confirming that he does view himself as david and trump is goliath. i mean, this

is the less than they should now all of previous comments from michael cohen compared to what the jury had to listen to on tuesday. but blanche asking him, you actually set on march 30th before this indictment was unsealed, that you had goliath on his back, did it you what's todd blanche trying to get at by implying that michael cohen knew that this was coming. i mean, he he spoke to prosecutors because i can one try the other day. two weeks before trump was actually indicted in this case right? >> i guess he's trying to make them out to be an insider. and that he had inside information he was embed with the prosecution of case. it of course, i think tajik follows up with how many times did you meet with them go through the specific meetings, did you prepare who who was playing the cross examiner and the da's office, you can really go after his credibility are going to rehearsal. i might ask him, why did you name your book revenge instead of rehearsed how many times did you rehearse your

testimony in this case? and i jurors don't like laurie laurie figures kaitlan, especially lying lawyers, and that's what i would make this case about if i was todd blanche what did jurors think though, of a defense team that has a tense relationship with the judge at times. >> i mean, the judge has been fair from what i've viewed inside the courtroom sometimes he sides with the prosecution when they make a motion, sometimes sides of the defense, todd blanche, just asked to approach the bench that would've been for the fourth time. they had a sidebar this morning and judge marshi and told him, no the jury is always going to believe in the credibility of the judge. of course. and so it's really dangerous to get on the bad side of a judge. you don't want the jury thinking it. the judge is against you. and so the judge has to do everything he can to look fair and as you say, the judge has been trying to do that in this case, except trump's been out there saying how bias the judges and the juries not going to hear that, of course, but the jury is

going to see is trump fighting with the judge or his lawyers, fighting with the judge. and of course, they look at that the other thing, as i should note, the right now, the judge, todd, blanche, and michael cohen are wearing headphones. >> these are not apple airpods. >> i should note these are really old school walkman style headphones that they have done put on, which just speaks to that it does feel like the 1980s sometimes in that courtroom there listening thing is the questioning is turned to cohen's podcast, there's a plethora of information for the defense here to use because cohen has spoken so often and so repeatedly in public about donald trump and blanche is pulling up a clip of cohen's podcast me a copa, in which cohen gives his reaction to the indictment and trump did not put on the headphones. i should note to listen to this clip. >> david, the other thing is right now, the other people in that core of it's not just the jury. >> there's also 12 members of congress and their does the jury notice them? do they pay attention to who's filling up the two rows behind the

defendant? >> absolutely. they see everything that goes on in that courtroom. and this is a strategy that was employed by the great edward bennett williams back when he represented a teamsters boss and he brought in joe lewis to hug his client in front of the jury and williams was a master. this, of course, everybody he loved, joe louis, he was he was a heavyweight champion. everyone loved the guy. i'm not sure, bringing in matt gaetz is the same as bringing in joe louis matt gaetz is not beloved by everybody, but the jury is going to see it and they're going to take it into account like they do every little thing that happens in that courtroom david oscar mark is great to have you. thank you for joining right now. cohen on that podcast that they are playing, said he is about to get a taste referring to trump of what i went through and i promise you, it's not fun. paula reid and kristen holmes that is. these are the comments that may be more beneficial to the defense

team as they are showing that last week when they were asking you want trump to are the other day when you want trump to belong in jail, michael cohen was saying, i want to see him held accountable. they're going to use all of these comments of his where he anticipated exactly what we're plot is playing out here. >> they appear to be going through chronologically, starting around the time that the indictment and going through cohen's comments and one would expect that then they will go through other statements that he has made in the course of this case and then compare it to other things he had said in other investigations. remember, he's been interviewed many times by investigators in and around various trump legal issues. so this does appear to be more linear than what we saw on tuesday. now, on the podcast, cohen says picturing donald trump being led through the booking process, fills me with delight and sadness at the same time you know what's interesting about this is this, i was just going to make this point. cohen's voice on the podcast is starkly different than how it sounds on the stand. if you listen to his podcast, if you watch his interviews on cnn, you we all

know michael cohen he, it's not the demeanor you saw on the stand where he was initially yes, ma'am. no, ma'am. to the prosecution looking at the jury knowledges that he was mesmerized by donald trump, but how that relationship deteriorated if their hearing him sound gleeful in that's what our reporters say. >> they say that he sounds excited that he's talking very fast because i'm excited that he's been indicted that i think is part of the contrast that they're trying to show here because you have this person on the stand who really is playing along with what they wanted him to do, which was to stay measure. now they're showing a different side of him. i think they tried to get at that on tuesday was showing the aggressive social media posts that he had written. but now you're actually hearing a different michael cohen than what the jury has been hearing. >> and now they're they're playing other quotes where he's talking about revenge but at this point, his book, his book. and this is used in a different context where he's talking the famous saying, revenge is a dish best are of cold, but it's a common theme. but at this point it's not clear that the defense has done

enough because they okay. he clearly hayes strom be fairly has a vendetta, perhaps even session, but do not believe what he testified to in terms of this conspiracy to falsify business records at this point, it's not clear the defense attorneys have successfully undercut his credibility in terms of the testimony that matters in this case. that's what we expect. they'll get to today. so far we're not there. also, remember this is a jury that they're not just hearing michael cohen's past comments is cohen is speaking much quicker on the podcast, showing a hefty dose of excitement. >> they're playing another one from october 23, 2020, that they're applying, dumping back a little bit in time they also heard donald trump, those in his own words, they pulled out multiple clips from trump's books where he said, you know, if people screw you, you screw them back and they haven't just heard trump's cohen's past comments are also hearing cohen's as well on october 23, one where he said, i absolutely effing hope but this man ends up in prison yeah, this again

is what they're trying to get at here, is that michael cohen hates donald trump's so much that he would do anything for him to go put them away? >> yes. exactly. and the other part of this that they're going to assume eventually tie it is to go back to the fact that michael cohen is a known liar. >> so now we're still in the october recording here. cohen says, revenge is a dish best served cold. this is the one you mentioned. i want this man to go down and rot inside for what he did to my family so this is one aspect of it. then you're going to see them go back to the fact that michael cohen known have lied before and try to link the two that he hates him so much that he would do anything to put him behind bars. >> how does michael cohen defend those comments? because it's not the ones where he was trying to take the sting out of calling him a cheeto-dusted cartoon villain where one juror was apparently taking notes of that. right now, blanche is asking michael cohen if he's publicly said that the work he's done helped get trump indicted. i took some credit. yes. >> i mean, this is the jury hearing from this witness in

his own words hoping for a certain outcome that they will ultimately decide here, you were asking how does he defend these comments? >> what you do is you own them, you don't deny them because it doesn't really matter what your opinion of trump is. it does, but it only matters for your credibility in terms of the testimony you have provided about falsifying business records. so you continue you to call president trump various names on your podcast. and when you're even doing cnn interviews, correct. bland said correct. cohen says, here, cohen's like, yeah, that was me. that's what i said. he's not backing down, are backing away from his criticism of the defendant at all. and it's up to the jury. how do they interpret that? they're like okay he said we said any agree that he said he's not denying it, so maybe he is nowadays on the stand after this long and winding journey. maybe he is telling the truth about the what is the defense team's plan if michael cohen does just one all this past comments, if he says yeah, it sounds like me. yeah. i did call trump various names. yeah, it did say that he should rot in jail. >> i think they think it makes their job a lot lot harder. i

mean, look, we know that this is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of what they have done in research into michael cohen, what he has said, we know they've gone through the book which i don't think we've been brought that out we're just in the podcasts. we know there's media posts videos that exist so when michael cohen continues to it and say, yes, of course i said that question, but unclear how this works and obviously jake, it is quite windy out here is we are watching i'll test you. >> it's going to get inside as michael cohen is now on the stand walking through all of his past comments all right. >> kaitlan collins, thanks so much. let us talk more about what's going on. first of all, kind of interesting. the trump campaign is not paying for the house members to travel to new york to attend trump's trial. in some cases, individual campaign committees of members of congress are paying but it's just interesting because it is that's an. expression of support for the president from this almost dozen members of the house. also not surprising, one of the central themes of this is how tight or careful

the former president is with his money. he is not going to be spending his precious campaign funds on this looking to members of congress are more than happy to go there. i mean, they're literally almost falling over themselves to fill up those russia seats in the courtroom. >> here we go with more of this, todd blanche clarifying that michael cohen responded on twitter, now known as x, when trump attacked him and stormy daniels and march 2023, blanche asked whether cohen responded and blends clarifies you did respond, quote, you called him dumb. donald sounds correct. cohen confirms this is also after the podcast excerpt was broadcast in the courtroom, quote, i truly effing hope that this man ends up in prison, but revenge is a dish best served cold and you better believe i want this man to go down and rod inside for what he did to my family. we have with us brian lanza, a former deputy communications director for the trump pence campaign of 2016.

>> we're learning welcome. >> good to see you. were learning they today's cross-examination is really going to go hard at is going hard at michael cohen, todd blanche asking cohen about a tiktok from just before opening statements when michael cohen said that he quote, has mental excitement about the fact that the trial is starting so this is about undermining a michael cohen. how much of it do you think it is about the legality and the really undermining this in the legal case. and how much has also steeped in the fact that donald trump wants himself defendant, which is a theme of his public life. he wants to be defended. and if he's not allowed to go after michael cohen because the gag order than his defense team sure. is. >> first of all, thank you for having me, jake, a lot of this is there's there's a lot to go after mike correct. with cohen and you're going to have multiple streams of information, whether it's revenge, whether it's, you got to validate his times. but i

think at the end of the de the trial is going to be dependent. it's not going to be dependent on documentations that took place in the ledger. it's all dependent on whether michael cohen had this conversation with president trump about the alleges about this about this alleged affair before the election, and in my experience, you it's hard to put a lot of weight in anything. michael cohen says, i worked from 2016. we knew in the campaign we could trust them. he caused a lot of problems for us. it just extended over the years. so for me, it's very difficult to see how anybody can trust michael cohen, even even even if he claims to be reformed. i said it on your air before and i'll say it again today. i mean, this is a man who ally in a confessional booth. that's just who michael cohen has. he's lied to you i suspect these live view and i suspect he's like to use why would it be different today as interesting that you said, but i don't think he takes confession, but it is interesting that you say that because right now, todd blanche is noting that he has lied under oath. >> michael cohen and the oath doesn't change depending on the location, does it? blanche

says, we're told trump in courtroom is gleaning back with his eyes closed it's how he's reacted to a lot of the testimony kind of just being mellow, taking it in not reacting. what do you make of that? >> your calm them down you it's much easier to absorb when you have to. you don't have to look somebody across from you sort of line about what's going on. you close your eyes. it's easier absorb the information. you know, maybe it controls as angers, i think we both know president trump. i can have a temper and i'd be angry in this situation. so i think just closing your eyes, not acknowledging not seeing michael cohen space probably helps them keep them a lot calmer i'm sure do the same thing for me. i wouldn't want to see michael in these circumstances and addition to being under oath and to actually like raising your hand and swearing that he wouldn't bear false witness michael cohen's being reminded right now by todd blanche that quote, each time you met with a federal agent, you were told that if you made a false statement, that that was a felony, a federal crime, correct. blanche? asks yes, sir. >> it says cohen, so i assume what they're going to do here is show all the times since 2017 when he was under oath

behind closed doors in congress that michael cohen said things that did not line up with facts. the defense says it might bring one witness earlier, tim parlatore, formative trump attorney said that he thinks it might be robert costello. who do you think that should be or will be? >> yeah. i think robert baer still be a good person. >> he can validate a lot of the stuff of sort of michael cohen being honest character for a substantial period he's interacted my understanding season interacted with cohen in the past and it'd be people that'd be he'd be validated with what the defense is saying that just michael is not somebody who can be trusted and to put the whole case on, believing that michael had this conversation is just it's very tough for me to even think about it. so first of all, i invite all my colleagues here to bring mr. lanza and if they have questions for him specifically, just to recap what's going on. in the courtroom. we i did not know this was going to happen, but todd blanche is actually starting exactly 2017 where i

where i suggested to the 2017 house intelligence committee testimony behind closed doors, when they were doing their investigation into the trump campaigns 2016, alleged ties with russia and cohen lied under oath there and was charged with perjury in 2018, todd blanche is asking michael cohen to recount the lies. there were a couple of different leinz. he says that's correct. cohen says, when you stop the trump tower moscow project was ally, correct? blanche asks, correct. cohen says, also when he stopped talking to trump about it is going to be another ally as well, but we're going to really have a lot to go through here about how, how many lives might do last week ago when the defendant, the prosecution did this. >> yeah. and i just want to add one thing that kinda ties it all together, which is as part of that line of questioning. todd blanche asked michael cohen that about the oath that he took every time he lied and whether that was the same oath that cohen took monday morning in that courtroom, and cohen

said, yes, sir. so in addition, there are a couple of different leinz when you stop the trump tower trump tower, moscow project was by coded said it stopped in january. it actually was in june, i believe in 2016. what was the other lie blanche asks i don't recall. i think those were the two cohen says yeah, i mean, look, i think this was honestly what like to your point, what we expected blanche to do to all the way along, right? >> it's kind of go through all this and we do have this update here. blanche says, you knew you relying, correct. and cohen says, yes. so again, just trying to expose him for i mean, look, this is what he is, right? this is something that he did. it's something that he did prison time for i do think how they tie this together with saying that he's motivated for this accountability is really the thing that i'm interested to see how that plays with the jury mode. >> but a juries, i mean, think about this, your juror. >> this man is telling you, yes, i'm a liar. that's why i live with 34 different

falsified business records and i did it not only for the benefit of the person who's sitting right in front of you, identified in cornel ready? >> but he knew about it and you have to get to the point where the prosecution has tried to lay out this defendant as having known the intent to do all these things. >> it the defense's gets going to establish him as a liar you solely fine. but you have to make sure that you are undercutting the prosecution's claim that donald trump knew about what was going on sanctioned it and said, just do it. so how do we get to the point where the question is whether we get to the point where that's a blanche question how do we how do we know that you're not lying right now? >> said that trump, so you knew you were lying, correct? yes. you lied under oath correct? >> yes, sir. >> and that's why you have documents, but that's why you've got that on weisselberg written hand now, i get it. but elie honig, the point has been made before that when and i'm not comparing donald trump to john goddard, but when mobsters go to prison, it is the testimony of bad people who put

them there. it's not priests and nuns who testify. he told me to whack this guy. it's other mobsters write you light again when you met with the special counsel on august abdomens 2018, correct? blanche asked cohen and that's robert muller. michael cohen went in and told robert mowbray, same lie about the moscow. i definitely get the sense from you that had been district attorney elie honig, you would not have taken in this case charged at you mean you would amount charged this case based because so much of it relying on michael cohen? >> yes yes. is that fair? if it was up to me, i would look at this case pretty much the way the southern district actually looked at it in early 2021 is which is there is evidence enough to indict, but you can indict almost anything as a prosecutor but in an exercise of discretion, i think that the evidence is too close to the line to war. it bringing this case that's my overall effect because it relies too much on the word of somebody that is susceptible to this exact cross. that's a big part of it. i mean, the southern district of new york, by the way, a famously aggressive prosecutor's office, arguably the most aggressive

prosecutor's office in the country. three made a decision. we are not willing to do what's happening right now to put michael cohen on the stand and ask a jury, which is where oscar, you're talking about the southern district of new york. this was back in berman. it was after berman left. it was during this transition period. okay. the woman in charge was named audrey strauss, who is a lifer who, if anything, by the way, is a liberal who does not like trump. i reported on all this my book, eight and non-political decision was made by the sdny in 2021 not to charge cohen fast-forward a year and alvin bragg and alum of that office next the decision. but the key differentiators, alvin bragg is willing to bank on michael cohen. maybe it'll work with the jury. i'm not i don't i don't have any predictions here what's happening right now is we're are beginning. the long walk through michael cohen's history of lighting and laura makes a good point which is sort of baked in right? yeah. he lied when he's lying under oath, we should and that's the thing. there's two things. i'm looking for. one, do michael cohen's leinz does the volume and breadth of them in serious ness of them get to

a point where the jury just says how can we believe him? i know it was all years ago. is his goal here. right. but it's just so much. and the other point is, is there something that departs from the narrative that michael cohen made a clean break from donald trump in 2018, are there going to be lies after that? and they're gonna be lies that get away from this narrative of all i ever live. four was trump. there are instances where customized for him. so if we could put up the weisselberg malmo because i think that a lot of the prosecution's case ultimately is going to hinge on this and you're you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but this is what the prosecution is going to lean on. they're going to say, okay, you don't believe michael cohen fine. but here is a document from the cfo that is outlining in detail this payment it it's $420,000 that michael cohen's owed 130,000 of which is stormy daniels related and the falsification of the business records is dividing that $420,000 into 12 and giving him a $35,000 payment coming to you in one second, but let me just note. you said you were accepting responsibility for their lives

for lying to congress lan says, but in fact, he repeatedly said and even set this morning and even this week, that the reason why you lied was because of your loyalty to president trump. blanche so are you saying you're accepting responsibility or blaming the joint defense agreement? blanche says accepting responsibility. i read it and i submitted it to the committee. cohen says on the stand, but but brian lins you don't you're not his defense attorney, so you don't have to come up with an answer. if you don't have one. but what's the explanation for the weisselberg memo? >> i look at that and i haven't fadell all the case, but i look at that and sort of having my understanding with michael cohen highly operates. >> i can certainly see circumstance how he's always eager to at that point to please, then candidate trump ceo trump we're michael does this on his own. all this is going forward and at the end goes to the boss and says, hey, look what i did and the boss is just like, what can we do with this? what do we do it? why would you do something like this? so it's michael doing these wire transfers, doing all these things that doesn't sound like something you have with me. my experience trump you and authorize. it sounds simply michael going rogue, coming

back like a dog and you're bringing a pet hamster. look what i caught and hoping to get pat and that's how you end up in this situation where trump is now sort of caught fixing what appears to be a mess that michael has gotten him into. and by the way, it's not the first time it's happened either. >> under my i'm sorry. but that does undermine the idea. and what you're saying of how the presentation you should have evidence has come in to date about michael cohen not being able to go fully rogue because you've got a micromanager and donald trump who they put out book quote as well, where he talked about trumping quite 2 billion or even before throwing me came on talking about signing a check yourself, you're seeing what's really going on inside of your business you have the idea of as you put up the amount of money if the jury is to believe that michael cohen is truly rogue about all these things, then it would really question the ability to then have this amount of money come in and we're talking about $420,000 as it's broken down, that he would have signed this check and he would have said, i'm going to reimburse you nonetheless, i think the jury has two almost stretch

credulity to get from the point of this person, donald trump is in control, and yet michael cohen, who have they painted as a buffoon really and all the different witness testimony, it could have that control and that's poses a problem for donald trump, excuse me, if he were to the test-ban the stand, he has two choices. either show he wasn't really in control or that he was complicit. that's a hard pill to swallow. so kaitlan collins, back to you in new york yeah jake i want, to bring in ron qb, who has a criminal defense attorney and it standing outside the courthouse where all the action is happening inside right now. and ron, i know we're looking at the live updates, so let me get you up to speed on what's happening right now, which is basically todd blanche is needling. michael cohen over every time he has lied under oath previously, whether that was to federal agents in the special counsel's investigation or even before congress when he lied about the work that he had done on trump tower and trump organization work in russia. that was something that the prosecution

tried to front that baggage before they were done with him. >> what does that work with a jury? >> because essentially they're making their argument. if you lied under oath, then why should the der not believe that you're lying under oath now you could spend a week cataloging the various lives and misdeeds that michael cohen engaged in and you still wouldn't get to the bottom but when we talk about credibility, it's important to distinguish between two types of credibility is michael cohn a credible person? >> and i think in fairness the answer is no if he came to me un said i have a great investment opportunity for you. most people would say, i'll pass, but the more important question is, does he tell a credible story? that is, is the story he's telling the account he's giving. is it corroborated by other evidence and witnesses and almost every piece of it has been corroborated is it on

contradicted by any other evidence? and so far, although it's not the defense's burden and the defense may never tried to contradicted it remains on contradicted. and last and probably more important is this sorry, plausible. did this michael cohn guy just drop out of the sky from somewhere claiming all of these things are he a regular, trusted lieutenant and fixer for donald trump who wouldn't go to the bathroom without trump's permission. and that seems to be the picture that emerges. so yeah, donald trump will be happy that michael cohen is spends all de on the witness stand. admitting as lives. but what does it actually mean in terms of the case? not very much well, that's a good point because the question here is not just their strategy of michael cohen, but it's also todd blanche is having to do a lot of work today to also please his boss, the client, who is you did right there and

the biggest lie that they want to get at that they claim is allies. >> when michael cohen testified that trump did directly approve of this reimbursement plan that he knew it wasn't for legal fees or retainer i mean, as blanche is walking through cohen through past statements that he made to judge pauley during an august 2018 here all right. that's regarding his previous guilty pleas. the one option here for the defenses to have donald trump take the stand and testified that cohen is lying. that would be donald trump's word versus michael cohen's. but it seems incredibly unlikely that they're going to do that run and that in fact is the problem. you can point out correctly. and the defense's right to focus on the fact that this one crucial conversation has not been corroborated. it's only michael cohen's word but there was at least one other person who's in that courtroom who was there at that meeting who can contradict michael cohen. and that's donald trump. but he says close

to a witness stand now, as he is ever going to get in this case you don't think i'll take the stand let me put it like this the chances of your golden retriever killing you are almost none but not completely not. okay. that's the likelihood of donald trump taking the witness stand i'm not going to make a kristi noem joke there, but rod, when you look at this, i mean, i think part of this is also, you know how how the jury hears this, and how you know, if whether or not they believe michael cohen i mean, have you seen jurors before? >> have someone who wasn't admitted liar get on the stand and this duree at the end of the de still takes their word for what they testified about in that case. >> in almost every case either the people of the state of new

york in state court or the federal government brings that are important cases. they call the worst people imaginable wires and terrorists and murders, and people who commit mass casualty actions mafia dance, and they all get dressed up. they all are closed and government redemption and if their accounts or corroborated they are in fact believed routinely by juries. and here, michael cohen was not offered a deal. he's not like your typical mafia under boss who's given a five-year sentence for 20 murders in exchange for testimony, he's not been given anything from the prosecution. and that really deprives the defense of a line of attack that it usually has brian qb. we are watching all this closely right now. cohen is acknowledging when he had pleaded guilty is that he was given 48 hours or had they were going to file an indictment

against his wife, which is well, his long argued part of why he pleaded guilty, ron, thank you for that. we're continuing to watch this. cohen is now talking about how he did this to protect his family and polar, this is well-worn testimony from michael cohen. he's very comfortable with this because he's testified this for congress. he said it in multiple interviews talking about accepting responsibility bility, but also why he pleaded guilty because to judge pauley, which is what my todd blanche is talking about their you know, michael cohen had made it seem like key. he had to plead guilty. they had no other option. he's saying i never denied the underlying facts. i just did not believe that i should have been criminally charged for either of those six offenses. he's kinda trying to walk this path of why he pleaded guilty without saying he was fully guilty? >> exactly. and i expect that blanche will also get into more of the substance of what cohen pleaded guilty to it because every time we say that he has been convicted for long, he will always read by, didn't say to protect or the interests of trump, but they're also

reminding folks that he was also pleading guilty to fraud related to a taxi medallion business arrangement that he had. i'm going to expect that's where that is where blanche is going with this this is the trick for the trump defense team, is that michael cohen wasn't attorney. he's comfortable with this test in the sense of this is all out there for him. he's done this before. it's not as first-time going through it. they understand that that's a challenge because he did this so much for when he testified before congress, kristen, in blanche's pushing so in on how he views a live versus something that is not true, this is actually a moment we're todd blanche tripped him up the other day where he was saying it's not a lights and inaccuracy and todd blanche said okay, whatever and he didn't have an answer. >> the answer was that it's still alive and it turns out that it's the same thing and that's what he just did here too. here's i was just using different terminology. cohen it says mean that's exactly what happened on tuesday when he said the same thing blanche says, so it was a lie, correct. cohen response, this is literally exactly what we already saw on tuesday when she said something else. what's the

difference between this and ally? he said nothing. they're the same, just different words. so again, they're trying to trip him up there, trying to get him to say that he was lying. cohen is doing everything he can to avoid, you using the word lie because he knows what they are doing here. but i also think to your point, they cohen is comfortable here, which is why you saw this kind of all over the place questioning from blanche on tuesday, trying to trip him up, but now we are at a portion we're playing. >> does have to i came through chronologically exactly what was said and what happened. well, and michael cohen was so comfortable admitting his lies to the prosecution which you knew where they were going, paula he he's much more cautious in this line of answers to todd blanche. >> yeah, it should be because he knows that their sole goal. is to undercut his credibility backed off from attacking him relentlessly. i, as a person like they did on tuesday, i said going back again to his previous statements here, also likely going to talk about how he has tried to shift the blame for his crimes to other people,

which of course, in this case they will likely try to tie to the fact that he's trying to shift the blame for his own life falsified invoices to trump arguing that he made the actual business records be falsified. now they say when you met with him and talked about the offense conduct, you blamed others, correct? bland said yes, sir. so this is them likely trying to line up for the jury that in past cases, cohen has not taken in personal responsibility. instead, deflecting on others and they would like the argue that's what he's doing here. he was the one who paid the hush money. he was the one and falsified the invoices and he's the one really the only one who can prove that trump made this entire conspiracy to falsifies business records come to life and he this is a big moment for everyone who's watching this child saying witness after witness get up. >> he is the last witness for the prosecution yeah. then the defense will have this case. obviously, the prosecutors we've got a chance to question michael cohen again after todd blanche is done, which he expects to go until the end of the day. what's the defense's plan for? i mean, is is this going to be their plan? are

they calling a witness? what's that going to look like? so when speaking with sources in the past 24 hours, right now, the plan has evolved a little right now. >> we only expect them to call one witness. and that isn't election expert and that individual likely speak very briefly. they're limited in terms of what they can share. a lot of this is likely to preserve issue he's for appeal. alan garten, a trump organization, attorney, could be called depending on what michael cohen says. but at this point, that's not expected. >> some folks have speculated about whether rob costello would be called because he was called before the grand jury in this case he testified before congress yesterday and talking cohen's credibility at this point, he is not expected to be called unless the former president's size performance on the hill yesterday and said, we've got to happen no he is not expected. >> so the defense case is going to be extremely brief. and then of course, we have the question about whether the former president will testify at this point. i think the legal team understands if there is a conviction here, they believe that will be largely be in part because the jury doesn't like our client and putting them on the stand likely wouldn't help that, but it is ultimately the

defendants decision. >> but it is remarkable that the judge just asked on tuesday about trump testifying and todd blanche still wouldn't say yes or no. >> he cannot get ultimately up to the defendant a lot rides on what they get out of cohen, but that decision, todd can't prevent him from testifying. it lies with the defendant. i think the general consensus is this this is not a good idea, but no one refutes that. it says right? and he knows he knows that it's not a good idea, however, the people that yes trump knows. however, even the people closest to him and i talked to you last night, we're saying we don't think that he's going to take the stand, but there is always a possibility nobody is taking the stand, but ever it's too scared to say he's not taking the stand. jake thanks. >> kaitlin. so right now, what's going on is really interesting because michael cohen pleaded guilty to a number of charges in his life in 2018, he pleaded guilty to some tax evasion charges, in part linked to the income here he was getting from taxi medallions, which is something you need to have in terms of

having an operating a taxi cab in new york city, cohen confirmed on the stand today that he knew before pleading guilty that the taxi management associate cooperated with the federal investigators against him. now, why this is important is an elie honig and laura coates will correct me if i'm wrong, i know is that he pleaded guilty and then he has since said under oath elsewhere that he was lying when he pleaded guilty. that was the suggestion that he was not guilty of those crimes is what he said todd blanche is basically pointing out that he actually has contradicted himself under oath once by pleading guilty to crimes and then separately under oath saying that he was not guilty of those crimes. so todd blanche is saying, nobody induced you are threatened you to plead guilty, correct michael cohen says and we heard this from lanny davis two days ago as i stated previously, i was provided 48 hours within which to accept the plea or the southern district of new york was going to file us an 80 page indictment that included my wife and i elected to protect my family. todd blanche asked

again if cohen felt induced to plead guilty in 2018. cohen said, i never denied the underlying facts. i just did not believe that i should have been criminally charged. for either of those six offenses. blanche pushes cohen again on his view, what's the difference between a lie and something that's not true? i was just using different terminology cohen says so it was a lie. plan says correct. cohen says blanche asks cohen about his meeting with pretrial services. so this is a different part of all this back-and-forth and all this background which is that michael cohen trying to get out from under the thumb of jonny law wanting to be able to move freely now that he's out of prison and such, and pretrial services were concerned that he had not actually accepted responsibility for his conduct because he had said under oath elsewhere that he was not guilty of the crimes that he had pleaded guilty to in 2018 when you met with him and talked about the offense conduct, you blamed others,

correct? blanche asks. yes, sir. cohen says blanche pressing cohen on saying that he had not committed the tax crime when you wrote a book called revenge, you described the parents charges as bogus? yes, sir. cohen says you felt and i believe you still feel that you did not engage in tax fraud, but you had to plead guilty to protect your wife and family. blanche asks, correct. cohen says blanche asks, in your book, you said the charges were 100% inaccurate i was referring to the same thing cohen says, blevins references in april 1 tiktok of this year in which he said, quote, that the federal investigation against you was the most corrupt prosecution at least the last hundred years. blanche asks i said that yes. cohen says the prosecution is objecting now blanche is asking cohen about a recent interview he did with cnn. look at that and the asks to approach the bench. elie honig as the as

this goes on your take, this is fraught for michael color for a couple of reasons. first of all, this blows stop one of michael cohen's most favorite narratives, which is i committed crimes four. and with donald trump, in fact, the tax fraud crime has nothing to do with donald trump. michael cohen, head $4 million of his income. he owed the government and didn't pay over $1 why is he still denying that? >> so that's i think if i had to get in his head, it's because he loves narrative that only committed crimes for donald trump. but here he is committing crimes that have nothing to do with donald trump and that is how he has painted himself into this corner because when he testified in the civil fraud case earlier this year, 2024, right. this is the new york attorney general, letitia james case against donald trump for inflating his assets and under an hiding his liability ladies and he was fined something like half-a-billion-dollar exactly in front of judge engoron. michael cohen took the stand and said, when i pled guilty to tax fraud and bank fraud, which i assume they're getting to next in federal court back in 2018. i was lying. i was

pressured by the government, by the prosecutors. i didn't actually commit those offenses. and then after that, michael cohen asked a federal judge to let him off of his supervised release, which is basically federal probation early. and that judge, jesse furman, barack obama appointee said, no way either eu-wide when you pled guilty or eu-wide when you said you were lying, you pled guilty. this is how things go with michael cohen. so he's painting himself into his corner where he absolutely has lived in court at a trial under oath. it's just a question of when lying liar who lied about leinz, i think that's all right. well, here's why is i mean. the defense wants this because the prosecution has been trying to paint him as somebody who is a changed person that you should give him credit for having me i'm taking accountability for what he's done, which obviously elevates and beyond i still run-of-the-mill liar. >> let me just for a second. so the blanche is continuing his cross-examination. he said you say you want the truth to come out, that the prosecutors and the southern district of new york were corrupt. plants,

asked correct? michael cohen says so. so the he talked about painting himself into a corner and now he's saying not only is donald trump and the entire trump ensemble corrupt, but highly respected southern district of new york prosecutors are corrupt as well. have you provided any materials to anybody that the charges against you were not appropriate? todd blanche asks and there's an objection to that from the prosecution, which is sustained. why would that be sustained? well, why that first one reasons why they want to make sure that they're taking him down a peg in front of the jury to be somebody who doesn't hit accountability is because jurors do not like when people tried to point the finger at other other people. if i'm if i'm going to give you some credit for being somewhat taking accountability i went a little to do it fulsomely. he's confirming that cohen has called the federal judge at different points in time in that and it trying to attack it, but here's another explanation though. >> it he is painting the prosecutors as something that is corrupt. >> and the average person is seeing the conflation to the narrative donald trump has raised in the past. this

actually could also to the benefit of that prosecution has already tried to distance themselves as someone giving them a giving him a pass. now, in part of what this is all happening about is thinking about the ways in which we're trying to go after them. i'll give you a quick update on this because cohen is now explaining why he did not feel he should have been charged even as a first-time tax of adr. his voice apparently is getting more animated as he begins to beak so his paces quickening. >> this is called a trigger. and of course this was the goal of the defense to be able to in some form or fashion go after the very thing he doesn't want to have to do, which is to change cohen's confirming that he called the sdny prosecutors at one point in time, giving them effing animals as well, and the judge in that case again the defense has been trying to say michael cohen doing a heck of a job at impersonating a decent person. >> i'm getting ready to show you who he really is and why is that important? because i don't want you to view them as anything besides a person who has invested in taking donald trump down. now, blanche is asking the question. you testified under oath at a

different trial that you did not commit the crimes, so you pled guilty to before a judge pauley, correct? he says correct. now, they're starting to get to the idea of the civil fraud trial. all this is part of a tactic to try to suggest you cannot believe anything. he says, he's even lying to you, but his demeanor today, we should just also know judge pauley who sentenced him in 2000 18, i believe it was supervised like the court has to be passed away in 2021 and he was widely respected, judge. you but nobody nobody outside of michael cohen's immediate circle of family and friends, things that judge pauley was a corrupt judge, just real quick. >> the notion that judge pauley would have been working with the southern district to go after michael cohen is preposterous every respect. and this michael cohen, he's talked about this publicly. this is where he loses it. he goes off the rails. he the fact that he pled guilty to tax and bank fraud makes him so angry, he can't hide it in his public appearances. he's pretty common casual about the other stuff, but this sets them off. >> yeah, you can, you can really tell that if his pieces

quickening under this and he's anyone who's defensive about something, whether it's in a legal setting or a personal relationship that you can tell when they are very defensive about something. and clearly cohen is here and i think it goes to what we're talking about when we were first starting out here, which is this idea that if cohen is a changed man because of donald trump, then he can be believed now and here he is basically saying that no, i still believe all of these things that about myself. to your point, that we're really crimes he committed separately entirely from donald trump, and that does seem to undermine what's going and to ellie's point, i mean, the idea that michael cohen's story and the story of his defenders is were once he was lost, now he's found where he was. >> he was in the throes of donald trump and did a lot of bad things for donald trump. and then his family said stopped doing this and now he's now he's an honorable person that is the narrative. >> and all of this undermines that narrative because it is

him still refusing to accept responsibility, calling a judge corrupt in a courtroom, and i can't imagine that that's going go over well with the jury. >> well, also the jury is my maybe thinking when they do deliberate, is this what's happening or someone railroading the defendant in this case as well. i mean, they're trying to also plant the seed abusing using michael cohen as a proxy that suggests that people are trying to ensure that this particular circle of people, as they've likely heard prior to even being in paneled as jurors remember, their common sense, kate, let the dog bark and their collective memories of what's been being said, they might be planting the season, having it grow. now, a jury is supposed to follow what they're hearing is evidenced in this. and again, this is why there was so much effort to have pre corroboration of michael cohen. >> and i think a point like we know so much about michael cohen, the history of michael cohen, you can almost recite by sine inverse and seeing if the jury doesn't know that they're hearing this for the first time. there's a lot coming at the jury. if i'm still wearing that fake jury had that you mentioned earlier, there's a lot coming if a jury here and

it's not about this specific case here. so i still think we do not know how they're reacting to all of this, but the judge, what he called i mean, to me, it just a barrage of things. how he's acting through this and what he says on redirect. also, i think is just as important, i will get you a real jury. has for your birthday warehouse is worth three weeks. i did not wear a hat during my but i will get you a special jerry hats because so that you can put it on like we from the brass, go your salt of the earth. i want to know your thoughts on things some hoffman and joins us here in new york. these a former executive assistant district attorney for the manhattan da's office. and thanks for joining us so how successful has the defense been in its cross-examination with knocking down not only what michael cohen said in direct, but also just completely undermining any semblance of the idea that this is anyway but with a moral compass good morning. >> i wrote down what someone just said. he's lying liar who

lied about lion there was dana bash, footnote. >> dana bash flip note dana bash well said dana, i love it this is this is the defense's doing a great job of making cohen appear defensive and as much as contradicting the substance of testimony, there really undermining how he comes across to the jury. it sounds like from what is being reported and what and i think you focused on exactly the right place he's saying everyone in the world, everyone in this system was corrupt, except me, the judge, the prosecutors. it was all out to get me and that's not going to fly with the jury, making him him come across as defensive. this really undermines the eyeline before i was bad before, but now i'm feste i fessed up to everything. i've done. i've owned it. yeah. this is really taking from that. so in the courtroom right now cohen turned to the jury

i'm try to explain why he should not have been charged i took the global plea that was provided to me. cohen says blanche interjects, cuts them off. please don't make a speech. >> he says, now many of the lies that the defense is asking cohen about realize comb cohen said he did. >> he told to protect donald trump or to protect his family. can ajuri factor that in? we'll a factor than an okay. he did that plea the protect his wife. he did those other lives back when he was with trump. is their will. they compartmentalize that possibly it might. >> i mean, that's what that's what will be the job on redirect wen wen shu hoffinger gets back up and tries to take him through some of this to try to clarify that it sounds like the way it's coming across right now. he's just sort of hopelessly trapped in his own web of lies, of lying about

lying and that's that's probably very effective with the jury that the prosecution will have a chance on redirect to try to go back and try to clarify. >> and as you say sort of compartmentalize and try to put brackets around different points in time. and what was being said. but it sounds like this is a effective cross-examination especially if as reported that he's getting excited. his voice is rising, is speaking faster. juries take note of that so blanche just asked cohen you also answered a question. >> do you recall that the reason why you lied was because the stakes affected you personally? yes. cohen said what would you do if you were the prosecutor? what would you bring forward on cross but on redirect, but hold on one second. i just want to bring this todd blanche said when you said that that last october, was that true? that the reason he lied was because the stakes affected him personally cohen

said, yes, blanche says there's no doubt that you know what perjury means. i know what perjury means. cohen says, if you were doing the redirect from the prosecution to try to cobble together whatever is left of michael cohen's credibility for purposes of this case, how would you do that so i think you need to go back and focus on on specifically the discrete point in time when he when he appeared in court and pled guilty, tried to elevate the fact that he was doing it to protect his wife. >> that that will resonate i think with the jury, i need people i think people understand that when you're faced with that situation, you might well plead guilty that strikes me as being a more noble aspect then this, this sort of mishmash of everyone was corrupt and out to get me. you want to elevate? dad aspect of it and hope that you can just make that the focus and not all of this other stuff.

>> in 2019, michael cohen testified before congress todd blanche is right now turning to that congressional testimony and saying, did you tell congress either the house or the senate? that you had lied to judge pauley. that's the judge in front of whom michael cohen pleaded guilty to those tax fraud charges. i did not cohen says so i guess what's what's going on here is again, maybe from a lie of omission. but before congress, perhaps michael cohen was accepted and responsibility and today he's not. let me just ask you with this as a star witness, would you have brought this case probably not. all right, adam, thank you so much. >> go ahead. go ahead. elaborate god. >> now, you know, if you're good, if you're going to come on the stand and take ownership and say, i did this. i did this, but i'm different now,

you have to do that. and the fact that he's not doing that, i don't know if this came out prep, but it's it's pretty disastrous to his credibility. it does not play well at all. >> adam, thanks so much for joining us. appreciate it back to kaitlan collins in new york thanks, jake. >> good right now, todd blanche is continuing to press michael cohen on his lies and what he's now saying about those lies. blanche saying quote, by not telling congress or the senate that you had lied under oath, do you believe that you are omitting important information polaroid and kristen holmes back here with me and paul. this is really important because todd blanche seems to be gaining steam here and his cross-examination, the judge just overruled. an objection from the prosecution to that question. there. and this is exactly the line of questioning that tripped michael cohen up when he testified in trump's civil fraud a trial that's when he said basically blooded really plead guilty. i just did it because i had two. and the question was, where are you lying then or were you lying now? and michael cohen still does not seem to have a good

answer are good defense for that. there is no really good answer. and the civil trial while he want up getting in a really heated exchange, some have described it as a yelling match with trump's defense attorneys. now, our colleagues and sayyed are reporting that jurors appear to be paying attention to this back for they're pretty intensive to everything, but they know right here michael cohen's credibility is on the line, and todd blanche, given a day off to kinda regroups, see how his approach on tuesday works. he has been much more effective and undercutting michael cohen's credibility. i reiterate slog and gotten to the actual testimony in this case, what testified to on the stand. >> but there really laying the foundation that this has man is a liar who refuses to accept responsibility. blood and todd blanche is in no well, hurry. i mean, he plans to question michael cohen until 4:00 today as long as they are going to be inside that room, he said it will at least go that long. i mean, they will get to that, but it does speak to what their strategy is here, that they are getting this into what he lied about before to undermine his

credibility on the line that they say is a lie that matters the most, which is trump's involvement in this, right? >> and my understanding is that yes, they will get to that, but that was not the crux of how they were going to handle this offense. their point of this defense was to undercut michael cohen was to paint him as a liar continual liar to say that he was only out for himself and that he was so anti donald trump that he would do anything to see donald trump go away to jail or go to prison right now, you're seeing that an action force, again, they will get to the actual crux of this case. his, but what they wanted to do for their defenses spend too much time as possible undermining this witness? >> yeah. and the mughal go is correct. and then i was going to prison as a result to see saying that he omitted that information from congress because the most effective line of defense that you've seen from the defensive is michael code is lied to all of these branches of government. so how can the jury now which he is now exactly. prosecutors knew

that going into their direct. so in their directly, it was a linear chronological direct examination where they have the tone for some of these issues. but i wonder right now at the prosecutors are looking at this and wishing that they had done more. they had brought more of these problems out in the open on direct and gotten not in front of it. i'm not allowed todd blanche to introduce some of these issues every prosecution witness meets with the prosecutors to rehearse and kind of go over what they're going to answer, what they're going to push. >> you, push on how they're going to answer that it's kinda it does make you wonder or were they prepared for this moment? did they know it was coming? any he didn't do well when they are hurting me, lady davis. trump or michael cohen's former attorney said, in total, he spent over 100 hours and prosecutors, i don't think that's just from alvin bragg's office. i think it's also from the previous ones as well, but it's a lot of time. >> it is. i will say that his performance on direct was solid, so all that work that they put into someone who is this complicated, this volatile has this many fields about what's going on. that was a

solid performance but they got right now he's saying that he accepted responsibility. >> moodle look quickly. blanche said that cohen got credit for accepting responsibility in his sentencing, even though he lied to the judge wright about accepting responsibility here, trying to paint cohen again as someone who's liquidus, possibly even a hypocrite, there really methodically attacking cohen's credibility. and this appears to be far more effective than just throwing up the cheese cartoon tweets and everything that they were doing on tuesday. >> there basically saying michael cohen was say he's lying or say that this is what's happening. >> when it benefits benefits him in the situation that he's in for whatever he wants. the outcome to the he will lie. and that's where they're going to get with this hatred of donald trump. is that if the outcome that michael cohen, juan it's for donald trump to go to jail. he will lie to get that outcome, which is what they're saying here on all of the past lives. okay. i don't want to go to jail, so i'm going to lie to this judge. i don't want this to happen, so i'm going to light of this drug here. we

have an update your codes. again, i don't know how judge pauley made it his determination, judges, as you know, have a wide range of discretion over guidelines. again, they're really trying to push his buttons here. it's clear that the biggest reactions they've gotten out of michael cohen is this line of questioning about leyen to judge pauley? he's still going back to it here. what's interesting is alina habba and that's civil trial. >> who on this very line of questioning is what tripped michael cohen up. she's been inside the courtroom almost every day. she's not the defendant let's table. she's not part of this team, but she is seated in there. and this was there are she has her critics and detractors and they criticize how she's handled other cases overall for trump. but i have heard from people who said that was the one successful line of questioning that she had to cluster michael cohen and on the stand. yeah, she was successful and getting a reaction out of michael color and maybe that is the most valuable thing you could give this client, but she was not successful in getting positive outcomes for a client in the civil cases where she represented him and she lost and she lost badly.

>> you're todd blanche, maybe be able to do the same thing, but with a more successful outcome, we'll see, you know, blanche pressing cohen on whether judge pauley would have liked to note he had lied. i'm certain he would have blanche you blame a lot of people over the years for conduct that you were convicted of i blame people, yes. and cohen and this this goes potentially the heart of this case. we've previously had trump organization accountants testifying that they were just cutting checks based on invoices, falsified invoices they receive from michael cohen. >> is that enough right. >> to sow the seeds of doubt, reasonable doubt in the mind of one juror that hey, maybe this is not beyond proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that defendant donald trump engaged in a conspiracy to falsify business records based on the testimony of michael cohen, if this is someone who always shifts blamed for things that he has done, i just want to go back really quickly to them. lena hava back-and-forth? yes. the outcome was not good for donald trump but that entire case didn't hate on the testimony of michael cohen, the way that this one does. so

whether or not this would happen a different pack remains to be seen. now, cohen confirms that he has blamed his accountant, the bank federal prosecutors, the judge, and donald trump. >> i mean, that's a great point that everything that's happening right now matters so much because this could be the ball game for this case when it comes to the jury, blanche says, does the outcome of this trial affect you personally? finally, michael cohen says, yes, david, oscar marcus and defense at a criminal defense attorney who was once offered a spot to defend donald trump and turned it down, is joining me again now, david, as you're listening to this as todd blanche appears to be gaining steam and it cross-examination of michael cohen. he's asking him does the outcome of this affect you personally? and michael cohen acknowledges yes, it does. how does that sit with a jury here week go, caitlin. >> finally, we're getting to it we're getting michael cohen exposed as a criminal defense lawyer. this is what we've been waiting for and it's finally happening. so, so criminal defense lawyers around the country are excited about this. and what we would do here is

keep hammering all the lies he's told to all these different people, not just congress, not just judges, not just juries, but his wife and his personal life. and then you can tie that up with finish that line of questioning with if you are on the jury, mr. cohen, would you believe you i mean, it's it's pretty amazing not only is the line, but he has his personal stick. it is this is an incredible witness and it's really crazy that the prosecution has decided to end with this witness. >> it's risky well, i mean, obviously the prosecution they felt really good about how it went on tuesday once todd blanche, the defense attorney year, was questioning michael cohen. >> it's unclear, obviously how they're watching all of this, but they will have a chance to question michael cohen again how does that, how does that work? can they undo any damage that todd, blanche and flicks on him or is it something the jury has to weigh one against? the other no, they'll have a

chance to rehabilitate him on on redirect examination. >> and the real strategic decision for blanche at this point is, does he want to run out the cross for the whole de the jury's left with the cross. and so the prosecution doesn't get that redirect before the long three-day weekend or do you let them finish today? and finished completely with cohen, so he doesn't come back on the stand on monday i mean, it's a really tough decision. you may want to end with the cross draw it out so the jury has that cross for the whole weekend and it sits with them. i think if i was a lawyer that's what i would want to do okay. >> so you think todd blanche should basically because they're ending at 4:00 today, but there's a juror has a previous commitment. you think todd blanche should go right up until 4:00, so then friday, saturday and sunday, that's all the jury's thinking about right now. >> the downside to that is the prosecution will have friday, saturday, sunday to work out their redirect, but i think the upside of having the jury just sit with this liar for the

whole weekend and then when you come back next week is the defense lawyer, you say this is the witness they ended with. this is the witness. they need to prove their case. this is why you can't believe and you make your closing all about michael cohen you don't you ignore almost the rest of the trial. you focus the jury on this witness and they have a lot to work with todd blanche is scoring today. it may not be the home run that he had hoped for the other day on tuesday, but he's jabbing and he's hitting his landing punches. caitlin and cohen. were told his measure or his tone is still measured, but he does appear annoyed. i mean, on tuesday, he had this very even tone. he was saying, yes, ma'am, and no man to the prosecution, he did not sound like the michael cohen that we are all so familiar with. and right now, his tone of work i hear from reporters in the room appears to perk up as blanche is asking him about the corporations that he had to receive monthly tax payments from. he says there were 16 of them and said that that's standard in the industry. i

mean, for michael coe, if you're michael cohen on the stand, he knows this. he used to be an attorney you'll how does he maintain his his calm or even tone that he had projected on tuesday. and how does the jury take it if you is very calm and measured when the problem excretions questioning him, but he has a very different tone when the defense's up their jabbing him right. as you hit it? exactly right. caitlin and closing, you would say as a defense, look at how rehearsed he was on direct. he was composed. this that's not the real person you saw. the real person on cross when we started questioning his demeanor completely changed and you would talk about how he wasn't just singing on direct. he was composing. and you want to really differentiate between how he was as a witness on both direct and cross, and that's effective. the judge is going to give the jury and the jury instructions. all the things they should look at to judge witnesses and michael cohen's ticking, each one off for the defense as to why he shouldn't be believed yeah.

>> we'll see of course it's hard to know if this various thinking i've been in there and they're kind of stone-faced the entire time. but we do know they're paying close attention right now. david marcus. thank you for that insight. and paula now todd blanche is getting into this line of questioning. i mean, if he's this successful at about 11 ish am they've been he's been on the stand for a little under two hours. there are still hours left to go. they have even taken their morning break yet and they still have a lunch break and then they'll come back and deal it's going to go well into the afternoon. >> absolutely. i mean, i was told this could even go until monday. unclear if that's including redirect and re-cross. i was told to expect michael cohen is still be on the stand monday but he is plenty more to do. now, here the prosecution is objecting to a question from blanche about whether cohen told his wife about that loan that they took out he took out a home equity loan that he took out to make the payment to stormy daniels, didn't cohen already say on the stand that he had not told his wife exactly, yes. i think they're going to make that

point. >> right. this whole thing about lives versus omissions, i would anticipate that's where they're going, but the prosecution objected, so there's a sidebar right now and cohen is apparently looking toward the jury with a small smile and shaking his head asked her colleagues inside the courtroom if the jury had any reaction to that. so far, they've had very little reaction. >> yeah. and that's important because initially michael cohen was not looking at the jury when he was speaking with the prosecution, but there were key moments where he talked about not getting a job and said the white house and he would turn his body and look at the jury. and was explaining this relationship that he has with his daughter. now, you did explain that he didn't tell his wife about that. that's he said he chose the home equity line of credit because it was paperless. nothing would come to his house and his wife, therefore, would not find out. we'll actually have a quick question for you on that. >> so when he is talking to the jury, we know that we've heard from our reporters that he is very measured, that he stays on message. but as he personable because i think that's also a question. is he connecting? at all with the people he's talking to? >> i think it's a question for the jury. you can't speak for

them, but what i could compare it to was stormy daniels and keith davidson of course, the attorney who negotiated her her deal with michael cohen they would look if the jury, stormy daniels was basically looking at the jury every five seconds as she'd make a joke, she looked through them. keith davidson, essentially, it was never even looking at the prosecutor. he was turned fully to the jury and talking to them. and it seemed really compelling because he was kinda telling him the story. michael cohen would sometimes answer a question and then look over at the jury to kinda see how did they take that? what did they think of that? it's not clear if they've established a rapport inside that. >> they haven't seen to laugh are fine to me. many people charming the one time we got to read out that they lacked was one, i think a paralegal from the manhattan district attorney's office so that he really enjoyed making spreadsheets i've not got a giggle from the jury, so it doesn't go there really tipping there are it's about who they find compelling. but except for the fairly but michael cohen seems to know what that stake here and who he is trying to reach. the fact that after this more aggressive line of questioning, he is looking at the jury, giving a

small smile, the way that you said that every time he was trying to explain something, he turns to the jury. i mean, he clearly knows who he is trying to convince here. >> yeah. he has an audience and blanche was asking you about a march 20 march 9, until the 18 statement and michael avenatti put out saying the money had come from cohen's. he lok that is a home equity line of credit as we know, jake, that's important. that is what he ultimately used to pay the $130,000 blanche is now asking him if he deleted text messages at this time saying he deleted all the messages, he added his wife on march 11th, jake indeed and asked about that. michael cohen says, i'm not no, sir. i'm not aware of that. cohen says, but we are also aware from previous testimony that he took out this home equity line of credit for $130,000 to cover the stormy daniels payment in his testimony, without his wife knowing. so i suspect that that might be part of where todd blanche is driving this car. right now to say that not only has he lied to several courts

and to congress, at least by omission and congress in the trump russia investigation. but by omission to his wife as well. blanche's right now moving on to cohen statements to congress in which he said he never asked for, nor would he accept a pardon from trump. that was false, right? todd blanche says, and i'm sure he has receipts to backup what he ever says. i never asked for. it cohen says i spoke to my attorney about it and tim parlatore, former trump attorney, is back with us. >> what do you make of whether or not a todd blanche is landing any of these punches on michael cohen? i think he is. i mean, you definitely seems to be hitting the stride here. and getting under his skin a little bit, which eight a good cross-examination goes for the facts you don't have to necessarily get under somebody's skin or break thumb. i mean, that's more of hollywood than reality but this to me looks like a very good transition where he's taking a lie to congress about pardons

and then transitioning that over two, the next few questions may be getting into what bob castello had said yesterday. and going to these communications which she did testify about on direct, just a little bit differently, the so-called back channel from bob castello to rudy giuliani and there you go. >> michael cohen says he quote, reached out to his attorney to see whether it was legitimate in terms of this idea of a pardon from donald trump, right? then president trump? but set a pardon would be a nightmare and look, i mean, i think what we're seeing here is a guy who has been all over the map politically and with various claims and a lot of those claims have did not disappear into the ether. there in test with contradictory eyewitness testimony like bob castello, perhaps, or text messages or testimony before court and michael cohen is

going to emerge from this definitely bloodied. >> no question about it. and i just want to say to your earlier conversation when i said liar, lying liars, who? lie about lying, i wasn't making that. no. no, you weren't saying i was saying they were just occurred to me that i should probably make that clear look, this is in addition to the ax to grind the motivation, this lying situation and the lying picture that the todd blanche that trump defense attorney is painting is the whole ballgame is the whole ball game when it comes to trump's defense. and the question is, as we have said many times, but it bears repeating now whether or not the jury is going to take this for what it's worth but really take into consideration the sign checks, the invoices. i wonder i wonder whether todd blanche is going to an end. >> this is maybe the hollywood i've seen too many hollywood versions of this, but he could drive michael cohen too, if donald trump, i kept you within

the fold and it offered you a pardon, would you not still be in donald trump's camp? >> i mean, that seems to be where they're growing. our team is working on this right now. i think it's not right. i mean, that's a set of pardon would be a nightmare. >> but that that absolutely makes total sense and it also paints michael cohen as someone who basically just does the self-interested thing and it blows with the wind and it doesn't necessarily mean anything but he's saying no, i don't i don't know how, you know, if you're the jury, how you grapple with something like that because it does seem a little bit obvious to me that that's the case that like michael cohen is not telling the truth now necessarily out of the goodness of his heart. but because it's landed, this is rhineland. >> yeah, exactly. right now, blanche's asking whether cohen's lawyer explored the possibility of a pardon quote, because you were 100% open to accepting it. and i wonder if he has a text message of michael cohen saying, i am 100% open to accepting it. sorry.

yes, sir there it is. all right. so he's you know, is it the pop? yes. so now he's acknowledging that he was 100% open to accepting it and doubt that if you'd been given this, if donald trump had been more willing to kind of put more of his own skin in the game to protect michael cohen. that michael cohen would have stayed in the fold. i mean, i don't doubt that, but let's just to underline this point. >> jeff zeleny, it's not just that michael cohen said he didn't ask for a pardon and it turned out a lawyer was exploring and on his behalf, he said before congress, i would not accept a pardon, not i never asked for, but i never asked for nor would i accept. >> and he just admitted that he was 100% open to accepting it. so again, we just had that michael cohen just admitted that to a new lie. >> yes. so he's lied to congress. he slide to prosecutors in a courtroom. i think that again, when you're a juror, we do not know how they're processing all this, but my guess is they are less than michael cohen's heads. then we all are in terms of knowing this whole story. they are seeing this so again, i

think it's his demeanor and his presentation and there was so much lying going on and other things. i mean, if you look at the documents that's why they have the receipts in the picture. we'll just have to see how this all goes, but we haven't seen as much. i'm interested in hearing from our reporters who are in the courtroom house the former president doing during with just this trap has been looking in irrigation from time to time. while he testifies, which is different from how he has been in court intervention, sleeping and putting it not sleeping. but just like looking straight ahead the judges over here are the witnesses are over there. when i was in court last week and we could go today. he didn't look and stormy daniels direction once as far as i could tell witness comes in behind you and then goes up. but here we're told that he is looking at michael cohen. trump leaned forward to read the congressional deposition testimony on the screen when it was pulled up, when he said that when michael cohen said in 2019 that he had not asked for nor would he accept a pardon from donald trump and he just

admitted laura coats that he was in fact 100% open to accepting a pardon from donald trump. >> this important because jury instructions are going to be given to the jury at the conclusion of all of the evidence when they're getting ready to deliberate. and one is likely to be this latin term that says if you're lying about one thing, you're lying about everything and they want to be able to say any sort of lie that you've given, even in testimony say not your past, but in before this jury, they can discount the things you said it gives the jury a pass to be able to say, as i'm assessing your credibility in real time, i'm looking at you. that's why he's turning to the jury to have them see their face. he's well aware of body language and what he's doing almost pleasingly saying, here's why i'm defensive. that's important for them, but also keep in mind here a power dynamic in play. you just described was like in the courtroom this is somebody who described himself early in the testimony as the equivalent of a puppy, a lackey who wanted validation and said he felt he was on top of the world when donald trump would actually give him praise. he is the person now engaged and looking at him i'm guessing as the jury, i think they himself now,

why have we donald trump be sewing more engaged this time? why is he leaning in? is there a dynamic, a power play happening? and how will that impact the measured tone of my of michael cohen and tim parlatore. i mean, michael cohen going before congress in 2019 and saying he would never accept a pardon from donald trump, and admitting on the stand just now that he would 100% except a pardon from donald trump. that's a new lie that we did not know about before. we there hasn't been any evidence that michael cohen has said anything false in testimony in this case, but he certainly is creating a long trail of admissions of times you didn't tell the truth, including under oath? >> correct. >> and i think that may be why donald trump is leaning forward a bit more because i think he knows where this is going, because now we're there bringing out new things that weren't part of the directed. as you just said, a new line,

nobody knew about before and if he goes in next to the part about how when he asked for this pardon. and then rudy giuliani came back and said, president says no, and he doesn't want to brought up again is that what happened? >> yes. and if that when if that comes out, which they have emails of that will then put into context is then conversation with his family about why are you being so little to that yet, if they have emails of that it was in yesterday's congressional testimony. oh, i see my progress not here. and that will wrap this del right? that'll put that into context. it will also then take at that point, todd blanche, you go back to his direct testimony and one of the great things he did here is he filled up the de on tuesday and then took all day wednesday where they could take the transcripts of his direct testimony, digest it, and get it all laid out. so that now he can go up and say, okay, in your direct testimony, you said yeah, what he says. he said cohen said there's public testimony was referring to the

present tense, meaning what is donald trump well, nor i wouldn't accept a pardon from donald trump because i i mean, not. and then this is the unspoken part because he's already told me i'm not going to get one. he also said a pardon was quote, being dangled, right? this is what michael cohen said, that pardon was being daniel does seem to me, tim, based on what you're saying and based on this line of questioning an lea, i'd love to get your thoughts on this. it does seem to me that rob costello would actually be a good witness. and the fact that he testified before congress yesterday on behalf of the house republicans who are obviously supporting donald trump and against his prosecution makes that even more possible. so when you said you never asked for and would never accept a pardon, that was a lie. wasn't it? block blanche asked, well, we'll see what happens. yeah, the answer should be yes. oh, wow, that's hard time. it was accurate. cohen says because at the very this is cohen's reasoning, not mine at the very moment that he said that he would not have accepted it that moment because he had already been open to it and been told by rob costello

via rudy giuliani, vinod via down to trump no, it's not on the table. don't ask for whatever again, so he's like, what am i going to do now? >> it's, it's easy to not want something once the ship is already saying no, he said it was still being dangled. but who knows? >> there was a really important moment in the cross a few minutes ago, sometimes when you're going through a long litany as the defense team is here, long litany of lies. you want to pause and sort of wrap it up with a bow and signal to the jury. here's where we're going. and there was a question from todd blanche a few minutes ago where he asked michael cohen the reason why you lied was because the stakes affected you personally. and cohen answered, yes and then blanche is the outcome of this case affects you personally? and cohen said yes, and that's a moment where you expose your theory. you argued to the jury through the mouth of the witness, and that'll be the theme at closing anytime this guy has a personal stake, whether it's psychological familial in an actual seeing his wishes fulfilled, he will

lie. he's done that. there was whole life. why is now any different? >> yeah. it's important to reorient people as well because obviously with the testimony that we've seen, it appears that michael cohen is the defendant in this case. he is not the defendant in this case, and the jury is likely at this point in time wondering about the presentation of evidence, the burden of proof as it relates to donald trump. and i want to go over again what they actually have to prove with respect to donald trump. it's about these 34 falsified business records. the intent to defraud, intent to actually conceal other crimes. the making of these false documents and business records, right? all those things. and you gotta have the documentary evidence. this is why they went to such great lengths to make sure that things like this came before the jury. the breakdown of the payment, why they went to length about the sign documents from ballon trump and the reimbursements. why they mentioned of course, they're talking about the ways in which to question his credibility. but remember, the convictions is what? the jury actually will be hearing about, and we've gone through these things. but

most importantly, they've got to go back this original point that everyone sees in the calendar. this is obviously jumbled it goes after inauguration day, once he's the president, united states, every box in red showing you how many falsified documents were made and the timeline of everything. but they have to actually go back and prove these factors. >> here we go, here we todd blanche is now moving on to cohen's conversations with robert costello. that's the attorney that he had spoken with after the fbi raided his home and office. and again, dana bash, robert costello, was testifying before congress, house republicans yesterday. and laying out all the ways that his conversations and apparently he brought receipts, emails, and texts, and the like, that. what michael cohen is saying is not act okay. right. and michael cohen very clearly was portraying when he was being asked by the prosecutors rob costello as some sort of like cd shady character being sent his way by rudy giuliani. hey, if you want

to get to shut them up, pay, if you want to talk to president trump talk to me, and then i'll talk to rudy and then we'll talk to trump and cut mr. costello saying that's not an also ten parlatore is saying that's not at all. what was going on. the court is taking a brief morning break. let's let's run this soundbite from rob castello testifying before congress yesterday when he tries to do is he picks out cherry picks shirt and emails or text messages and tries to make them look like something else. >> the story he told yesterday was that rudy giuliani and i wish somehow conspiring to try and keep him quiet to try and keep them from flipping. that's the term we use. the trade for cooperating that's ridiculous so that's bob costello who as tim parlatore said, is patrol presenting a very different story than michael cohen is about their interactions. and might be

called as a witness for the defense once the prosecution rests, yeah. we've been talking a lot about the sort of receipts, the paperwork, the texts, the checks, the invoice. is that the prosecution has to try to make their case beyond or an addition to the testimony that they're getting from michael cohen and other witnesses and the question is whether or not bob costello is going to bring the same kind of receipts, same kind of paperwork to backup. what he is saying, what he said yesterday. yeah. if if he indeed let's devise we still don't know what the defense plans on doing the trial is taking a brief break, so we're going to take one to the cross-examination that michael cohen will likely get even more intense when we return, the defense keeps building on it's all out push to portray michael cohen as a serial liar we'll be right back

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inside the room that he was breathing heavily as he left the room? yes. to cross behind where donald trump is sitting at the defense table in order to leave the room and then donald trump in his coterie of republican allies who were seated in the rows behind him have also just left the room for this brief break. paula, right before they stopped for a break, it was a pretty critical moment where it's not clear how this will affect though totality of the case. but todd blanche did get michael cohen to admit that years ago when he testified work congress that he had never sought and would not accept a pardon from donald trump. he said that his little attorneys did explore pardon options with donald trump. yeah. and this is all coming out as a result of some testimony yesterday from rob costello. he is alive long trump aligned lawyer. he represented rudy giuliani for many years and for a brief period of time, he represented michael cohen, who was the only witness that the trump defense a year ago put before the grand jury in this case. they're not calling him here, but some of his interactions with cohen are coming in through this

testimony about the pardon. now, the really the key part of rob castellows testimony 20 before congress and his story that he is still publicly many times is he said what he represented michael cohen. he repeatedly asked if he had any evidence of criminal conduct on the part of donald trump because costello said that could help you because you are currently under investigation that could potentially centrally help you. do you have anything and cohen, according to castellows, said that he quote, had nothing on president trump and could not cooperate against him. and blanche just brought that up and he said, did you say that that you had no evidence of allegedly criminal conduct and cohen got a little squishy. he said no, then blanche followed up and said, well, do you mean you didn't? day that or you don't recall and cohen says, i do not recall. so that lends credibility to what costello is saying, that at least for a time, cohen claimed to have no evidence of criminal conduct on trump, and castillo is important because before trump got indicted, basically the trump team sent him in because they were hoping he could make the case and counteract what what michael cohen had been and

saying to the grand jury when he himself was testifying before the indictment. and i remember trump at the time was saying, you know, bob castello under undermined his entire case that everything that michael cohen had said he was able to undermine that still, trump got indicted despite that. yeah. rob costello will tell you that the grand jury was wrapped by wrapped by his testimony certainly convinced of everything he said. now, i've worked with rob castello for gosh, i mean, almost a decade now he's never told me anything that wasn't true, but he's definitely a character. it's not clear that he would ever overcome the low standard for indictment, but his testimony, even though he's not expected to be featured in the trial, it's unclear why, but it's still combing in what he learned from michael cohen and now it's at those the jury to assess it without ever hearing from costello and in that moment, christian, where michael cohen did go before congress 2019, and he was asked about this question of whether or not he ever saw departed. i mean, you can hear him in his own words. >> they haven't played this for the jury, but this is the moment that todd blanche was just asking michael cohen about and i have never asked for it,

nor would i accept a pardon from president trump. >> and by coming today, i have caused my family to be the target of personal scurrilous attacks by the president and his lawyer trying to intimidate me from appearing before this panel and what what michael cohen was saying there will it was a confusing conversation. >> it was this tub much said no, no. that was your written statement to congress that you were reading before you and began testifying, right. >> and again, and this back-and-forth lead to even more between donald trump and michael cohen. it started donald trump's started saying you asked me personally, you're a liar. michael cohen saying no, you're the liar mean very mud slinging stuff that we've continued to see from both of them for the last several years, but i do want to bring up something that happened when the prosecutor who was questioning michael cohen because i think that they were setting up for this moment

knowing that some of this was going to come into context, and that was michael cohen talking about costello saying he was sketchy, saying that he was essentially at certain times holding over him, that he had this relationship with giuliani, who was so close to the former president. they are clearly you're trying to get at this line of questioning, which is you said is critical, is the fact is what todd blanche is going to stay here, which is that you told costello you had nothing that you could who operate against former president about that's a really good point because it seemed to kinda come out of nowhere. it was at the end. they started showing emails from bob castello to michael cohen where he was clearly pressuring him to stay in the fold. he was saying i can be your attorney, i can be your back channel to donald trump my friend, referring to rudy giuliani and my friends client, if you have anything to pass along, let me know. so the jury does have a sense of who this character is, even if he himself may not appear before them. >> exactly. he's been a trump world fixture for about a decade, but it's important to

give an update on their relationship. he represented rudy giuliani for quite some time. giuliani rack up millions of dollars in legal bills and a bold rob costello and rudy giuliani, we reported we broke this story. yeah, but they went down to mar-a-lago and ask trump for help with his bills. now he's signaled that he would help somehow. but as last time i checked in, rob costello is still not been paid so since he testified before the grand jury, there is a little bit of blat bad blood here now currently castellows team trump and not team cohen's. we could still potentially be a defense witness, but it's notable that they're not calling him to undercut michael cohen's credibility. >> that wasn't giuliani teared up and trump basically said he wasn't going to help cover it a view as legal expenses because he didn't win. he didn't prove election fraud. that didn't exist, which is what trump ultimately wanted from rudy giuliani. yeah. and as we understand, he did one of those indirect promises to help a little bit and he did if i remember correctly, he held by the dinner or so he did help looted yeah. aster he helped rudy giuliani raised a little bit of money, but as i

understand it, that did not go to the cost costello balance. so because is better character in the story for about a decade. but what he has to say here, it is significant if true, and you'll cohen's not exactly contradicting what you would call it the castellows said on the stand, he's just saying, i don't recall trump's behavior during all of this has been notable as well, kristin, because initially he was doing what he typically has been doing throughout this trial where he closes his eyes for sustained periods of time. he's not always sleeping, it's just seems like pretending like the testimony is not happening. and he started to perk up into pay attention and was watching as those final moments where the pardon talk and cohen saying it was confusing rapping, i should note, judge merchan is back on the bench do expect michael cohen reed, back on the witness stand any moment? >> well, it remember the first day of questioning was kind of all over the place. it was a lot of reading really nasty things that michael cohen had said about donald trump. and we were told that donald trump had been briefed multiple times not to have any sort of reaction if he was feeling like he was

going to have a reaction to keep a stone face, but they did not want michael cohen to feel like he was having the ability to get under donald trump's skin. however, the one correlation i'll say here is once we start seeing or hearing from our court reporters, but michael cohen's waste is getting more rapid that he is starting to have to explain things that he sounds a little bit less measure. that's where you're starting to see donald trump perk up. remember donald trump wants to see michael cohen destroyed on the standards, not just michael cohen, who hates donald trump, which we've obviously has been laid out in this case. it's also donald trump hates michael cohen. >> yeah, safe to say there's no love lost between the two of them. we also have attorney michael van der been joining us now, who represented dollars i'm trump. i should note in his second impeachment trial, that was actor january 6 and michael, it's great to have you here as you've been watching this, is there a point that you believe has been the most effective in this cross-examination of michael cohen? >> well, i think it's right before the break. i think they're starting to get cohen

to admit to lies that the prosecution hadn't completely prepared the jury. four. think that it feels like from the reporting, i'm getting for you all that the crosses so i'm pretty good. it seems like blanche has a pretty good rhythm going there have not been a lot of objections. i've i've been in front of this, judge and with these prosecutors on a very similar case and their goal when you're on cross-examination is to stop the rhythm. and they really haven't had a chance to do that. seems like blanche's asking questions that are right down the pipe and these can answers he wants i mean, you know what it's like to represent donald trump. >> you did so in the impeachment hearing, but i mean here in this trial, this is a test of todd blanche or for todd blanche today as well, when it comes to trump and trump's confidence in his lead attorney you know, you've had

some reporting that trump was i'm happy with plants are week or so back, but he seems to certainly latin blanche, do this cross. it really gives an endorsement to that. he's with the defense. he thinks the defense is going good and they're going to stick to the original game plan that they had and i think that's really important. not only for the defence itself, but for how it's perceived by the jury. it'd be very difficult for the lead guided com and halfway through the case, he no longer be around. the jury would pick up on those signals. they there in that room every day feeling the vibe, not only from the witnesses, but from the lawyers and from the judge. and it's really a 360 degree perspective. that they're going to have. and so blanche seems to be having the client's confidence and it seems like he's earning it right now.

frankly yeah. >> and just a quick scheduling note, there was a suggestion that they may actually have court next wednesday is they are nearing the end of this trial, but judge merchan is just returned to the bench, and indicated that the sum of the jurors cannot actually come next wednesday. it's typically they're off days, so we'll see what that looks like. michael cohen is back on the what is dan? and michael is much as obviously we knew trump's team wanted to say that michael cohen is a liar and to raise doubt in the jurors minds about whether or not they can trust him. but it seems like this is at a point where really the question for the jury will be when can they start believing what michael cohen said? and can they believe what he said on the witness stand earlier this week when as a defense attorney, do you know if you've achieved you've your goal. i mean, the jury doesn't really give much away that's really good question, really. >> i think the main goal all of this cross-examination is to set up the closing argument to

answer that very question you just asked, that they're setting up the closing argument and they're going to hit the jury instructions. are there going to hit credibility of witnesses? oh, there's a wicked good jury instruction for the defense, which you are the user the jurors are the sole judges of credibility. and then he's going to bearing wall of the things that were incredible in his past. and even in this trial fulton one faults and all they're going to argue is because the judge is going to instruct the jury if you believe the witness testified falsely about any one thing in this case, you can believe all of the testimony was false. and then it rolls right into guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. this is the linchpin of your case. and what this is what you're left with, you're left with the guy who was incredible who lied to you before this trial, likey in this trial. and they haven't met that high burden of guilt

beyond a reasonable doubt shocks. there's there's there's daylight, so down here with cohen, if they execute this cross, right? >> the jury is now back in the courtroom and it's really all going to come down to them. and what this looks like as you were just saying there, if they could successfully create that doubt but i mean is there a chance that they believe michael cohen and that they say, okay, yeah, we do know and understand he's lot a lot to multiple branches of government. but in this instance there's no angels inside in this story of how they're looking at this, no heroes. and so how do they make the determination when it looks like that? >> well are you know, right thing. they're going to do that they'd have to turn and listen to what the prosecutors are saying because the prosecutor because you're going to say we don't pick are witnesses. these are the guys that donald

trump's surrounded himself with. this is the guy that donald trump had as his lawyer is personal lawyer for a very, very long time. well, if he was credible enough for him, then he is credible enough for them now what the problem is, the guy is loaded with bias he's loaded with credibility problems for just sheer honesty on his inability to really any point in life that's been examined is to tell the truth mf threats, but very difficult for the bias now and then the inability to tell the truth two, are going to be really strong for the defense arguments. it's how to come out in this cross across really has to finish and finish strong and consistent what's, the one question you would ask michael cohen if you were at that cross-examination, if you were at that lectern right now well,

i mean, i would have i would have started i give this to add of leisure, a young lawyer, my office, i really would have started with deep consider yourself an honest man because, he's if he does he if he doesn't answer it one way or the other it's so funny because another attorney i know, texted me the same thing and said that would have been there first question for him, michael vendor, a great to have you. >> thank you for joining us and my panels back here with me. i've todd blanche is now back at the podium to continue his cross-examined of michael cohen i mean, it seems like they've covered some some ground this morning, but they're just getting started. actually gotten to the conversations about the documents the closest i've gotten is how michael cohen paid this. and if you told us wife what was going on they haven't and all that speaks to the timing which we now really got a big clue about whether the jury will likely decide this case before i ever moral day, because it was clear that the judge was trying to make them work, anticipating that they could potentially get the case on wednesday and then

have two days to deliberate. >> but now that the jury can't meet next wednesday, we expect a cone will be on the stand and until monday, a brief defense case law to litigate some issues about instructions to the jury. the big question is going to be, when will they get this case? >> will the judge give it to them and then let them go for a four day a weekend. >> this is a question that no one on any side of this case can answer. but the fact they can't meet on wednesday strongly suggests that we will not have a verdict in this case until after memorial day. we talk about why that matters, because a lot of the timing is we don't fully know how the end of michael cohen when goes how long they want on redirect and maybe todd blanche getting back up there but also i mean, it could mean that the jury has an entire holiday weekend to think about this, they already have this friday off because trump is going to his son, barron's high school graduation. >> they also have next friday off because the memorial day weekend, that's a lot of time for the jury to sit on a copious amount of information that they've gotten. some sources and suggested so to me, they think it might be good because the jury could potentially forget some things.

now, i don't know if that is the case, but giving them four days between the beginning of deliberations and the continuation of deliberations that is something that i'm sure the judge was trying to avoid and maybe he might hold off and do closings the following week, watching his strategy for when he gives the jury the case that's going to be fascinated right now, because we're in this unusual situation where the majority, almost every single week except for one in this case, they've been three day weeks. that's why this is getting stretched out. >> we just had a break. another becker from obviously trump has a ton of republican allies in there with him i mean, he went from day one of this trial to basically having no one aid sitting behind him and now they can barely find enough seeds and our reporters said it's kinda causing a disruption as they're trying to find sees for all of them. i mean, they're the ones who have been coming out typically and going to the camera and kinda saying what trump wishes he could say. >> yet they're not under the same gag order that donald trump is. de are really serving the purpose to fight this in the court of public opinion,

there's no one that donald trump wants to hit harder then michael cohen and really stormy daniels, two people that he can't touch on at all. he can really only go after bragg and the judge on the case overalls, you're seeing these kind of surrogates, sir? serving as his mouthpiece out there in front of the courthouse. and remember, part of this and we reported this is that donald trump felt like he didn't have enough support either inside the courtroom or outside i knew we know that he complained that there weren't more pro-trump protesters in that area outside of the courtroom. there's only a handful, five some points, only one some points, none at all. he's obviously said which isn't true, that they can't get there. what there is an actual siphoned off area for pro-trump protesters. it's just not filled. so part of this has been these various lawmakers seeking to please donald trump and show their support. we are told by a lot of them that they offered to come, and particularly as the ball started rolling, more and more of them offering to come and right now, cohen is on the stand agreeing it's correctly is not served as cooperating witness and multiple

investigations run by robert muller, the southern district of new york, the attorney general's office here. and of course, the manhattan district attorney's office on those republicans, kristie i mean, they all show up at trump tower. they ride in the motorcade with him. i mean, it's kind of a vp cabinet tryout basically at this point for all of these officials in trump's clearly watching closely because he comes out and recites what they've said. tim, scott, rick scott mean some of them are also missing work that is happening in washington that a markup by redhead to be rescheduled today, and so many members so the house oversight committee, sitting inside that courtroom. >> yeah. i don't think it's kind of an audition. i think it truly is the audition. i mean, we know that some of the people who have showed up, jd vance sounds doug burgum. these are people who are at the top of the shortlist for the former president, there are people that he talks about. constantly when he's talking about who will be as potential vice president. >> and then you have this slew who is public and lawmakers who want to be on the right side of donald trump. if he is in fact can be elected, again, they

know how important it is to show their loyalty to the former president. of course, all this thing a little bit ironic that we're having them attend or he's having them attend to in which the person who is the most loyal to him is now the witness against him. >> and jake right now, todd blanche is pressing michael cohen on something we expected, which is after he left presented was under supervised release that he tried multiple times to get it ended early. and cohen said, correct, that none of those times have been successful thing yeah. >> blanche has gone through several investigations and asked cohen if he met with those investigators, but and was never offered are served as a cooperating witness in the investigation investigation. this includes the molar investigation the southern district of new york, the new york attorney general, and the district attorney cohen agrees that it's correct. he's not a cooperating witness. after you started supervised release, you have made efforts to have you're supervised release terminated early. blanche asks correct cohen says, noting none of them has been successful.

cohen has tried four times, four times to end his supervised release early. he confirms. and i believe the rejection of that aligarh and correct me if i'm wrong, is because at least one time one of the judges said they don't believe that he has truly repentance because he's staying that he only pleaded guilty to the tax fraud, fraudulently. he was lying. laura lee, he was lying when he did that. >> yeah. i mean, the idea of going through all the different isn't of this track record of being an unreliable narrator, they're trying to attack him because they don't want to focus on one of the pre corroboration that has happened up until this point. remember the focus is on these based falsified business records and about whether or not he has the unique insight as to whether donald trump was involved in it. if we go back to the $420,000 that we're talking about, that's the core of this issue, right? all everything else is very important in terms of his credibility and the jury has the right to do that and assess these things. >> but we need to focus on what it is the prosecution's burden

of proof also is and i just want to point out for people, there has been a lot of discussion about the payment and what evidence can be used to support the fact that michael cohen was aware and that donald trump may have been aware allegedly, these two things. >> remember who we don't have. you don't have a man name island weisselberg. we know he is presently in rikers. he is serving time. he is a benny corporate loyalist, donald trump. he is not on any witness list he is not going to ever make an appearance here at all in this trial, but he has been referenced so many times. there's two moments i want to point out that martha, go to the tablet for a second. there is the actual note of allen weisselberg here that you can see right here, his handwriting. >> that's that one is actually weisselberg's handwriting as opposed to a graphic that was mistaken again, that we've been showing, but this is actually his handwriting. allen weisselberg handwriting. look right here in particular, i know it's a little bit of chicken scratch as they say, but you can vaguely make out the idea of three 60 plus 60 to make 420,000.

>> why is that? because remember, if the breakdown $130,000 hush money payment to stormy daniels plus the $50,000 to this red finch ferment that poll ratings, then you've got the $180,000 now multiplied by two to have the ability to have taxable income still leave you with this amount. and then the bonus. now, what's important here, we've also been seeing this a lot has been this document from mr. mcconney. he was essentially there right-hand man and on weisselberg are subordinate to allen weisselberg as well. we've seen this. he needs are the notes that he wrote. >> so this is this is macone. this was the controller of the trump organization. right. but you he did testify the guy that wrote this memo did testify but he was right hand man for allen weisselberg, who wrote the previous memo that what you just showed code and so was he what did mcconney testified about this about this document. >> so mcconney testified that these notes he took apparently from his conversation with allen weisselberg about the payment structure to michael

cohen. >> and again, it matches up at that one 50 the one at the one at times to adding up to a thing he. actually had a tire, a typo in one respect or a misprint there and then he actually goes back and talk about you to hear $35,000 payments. again, how much? >> so let's go back to the actual one and weisselberg's handwriting, let's go back to it. so what does that show? >> now we've got here again 180,000. again, you've got this three, 60 plus the 60 times four, 20 you got this red finch has referenced again to make this clear to everyone, all these numbers line up to what you're looking down as his payment breakdown we referenced already a payment to daniels, 50,000 to redfin okay. 3,000. so there's been some confusion about what exactly is the weisselberg memo, one of them is actually written by weisselberg one of them is written by my weisselberg's right-hand man. both of them are pretty much in agreement as to the alleged scheme that the prosecution and michael cohen are saying happened, that the trump team is denying happened. >> that's important because

again, before michael cohen got on the stand the jurors would have been privy already to the evidence and documents humans to support corroboration for the reasons we've all been articulating because of what's called baggage and michael cohen brings in terms of his credibility and his lies, they had to pre corroborate a lot of things that the jury would have. the rep repetition of. i've seen these documents. here's the amount of money, but now they're here repetition about the fact that he's a liar. >> all right, let's go back to the trial. all right. now, because inside court, todd blanche is trying to get at the point that michael cohen has tried to be a cooperating witness, but it has never happened. blanche asks cohen if he wanted to be released early from prison because of his cooperation quote, but this whole time, all the meetings you had, you never you never offered a cooperation agreement? you were. never a cooperating witness. michael cohen says that's correct. blanche asks of cohen recalls when he testified in october 2023 that he refused a substantial assistance letter that is a letter from a prosecutor saying, please help this guy out. he has offered us

quotes, substantial assistance. i do. meaning he do he does remember testifying in october 2023 that he refused this letter, but that's not true, is it? blanche asks it's true cohen says cohen says this substantial assistance letter was offered after he had already who did you say that to? cohen said guy potrero my attorney blanche is asking cohen about his desire to work at the white house. what's the significance of this elie honig? so todd blanche just making the point that you offered your testimony to basically everyone who would listen. you offer get to the fed's. you'd offered it to molar the southern district of new york. you offered it to the new york ag you even offered it at one point to the manhattan da and essentially everyone passed except the manhattan de. he's trying to suggest that you're damaged goods and other smart prosecutors were not willing to rely on you and then there's there's this issue about whether cohen was interested in a letter after he

pled i mean, it makes no sense what michael cohen saying here. he's saying prosecutors offer me a sentencing letters the best thing someone to michael cohen's position can get from prosecutors. that's how you get a reduction. and he's trying to say that after he played, he was offered a sentencing letter. i don't know who that would have been from. and he said, no, thank you. i don't understand and remember the plastic heater and just add that point. the prosecutor listening to testimony other day where she suggested that they would have provided something if the sdny also wanted to have something, they declined. i think she was trying to suggest see, you're not here under our thumb. and now moving to the next topic and they fronted this in their opening. they're now going to point that michael cohen was hoping to be made attorney general or chief of staff in the trump administration. and he was not in felt jolted. and that's what the current cross-examination as about that he felt betrayed and i think according to trump's team, that's why he turned on donalds, said i would have liked to have been considered for ego purpose where to ask whether going recalled arguments at sentencing about

whether we about wanting a role at the white house, hoffman's your objects and attorneys have a brief sidebar. >> do you remember telling congress that it was a lie that you did not want to go to the white house. todd blanche asks again, we're getting into just like a basic things that he said that where he's contradicted himself in different places yeah. >> it's interesting to me, you know, what elie was just pointing out. it doesn't make any sense that he was offered a cooperation are a substantial assistance letter and turned it down. and i don't know why todd hasn't followed up on that yet. and so maybe that's something that they're gonna go get documents and come back to later to that point, maybe this happened here, but i've literally never heard of that. >> i never have important i've never heard of prosecutor saying we'd like to write you a cooperation letter and the defendant saying no, thank you i mean i mean, another thing he's saying here is i remember telling congress that i did not want to work in the white house. >> cohen says but there's been all sorts of testimony. jeff zeleny, and i think a lot of us probably recall from 2016,

michael cohen telling us that he was going to go work in the white house and then being really upset when he was not allowed to go, when he's not invited to work in the white house. do you remember that personally absolutely. >> yeah. for sure. i mean, again, we've talked little bit about this. it's impossible to overstate how connected donald trump and michael cohen were in the years before donald trump went to the white house cohen certainly wanted everyone to think what he did. in fact, operate. like someone who was physically attached to donald trump. he went most of the places that donald trump went whenever you were covering trump. i mean, there were some people that got on the camp payne cohen wasn't always out on those kinds of things. but if you walked into the starbucks in trump tower, he'd be sitting there day in and day out talking to reporters or other people who came through. and then so the idea that he didn't want to come to the white house with the president is simply not apply. remember, during that time period, i agree with you. >> he was with him but he used to be the only aid and then there became hey, more aid said more aid. so michael cohen got a little bit farther out in the circle here, but still of course he wanted to work at the

white house. but when he arrived at the white house, that de in february of 2017. the look on his face show that he was in a candy store. basically he was so thrilled to be at the white house walking up the south's driveway the, north driveway excuse me, the north lawn and standing out there and then going into the briefing room i have a hard time believing he did not want to work in the white house. >> there's still pressing him on this very issue. and one of the reasons is so important to think about here. and again, you're saying the truth is you really wanted to work in the white house why this where there's like there's literally hundreds of people who know that he wanted to work in the trump white house i mean, well, i don't know the actual answer to this, but we know the reason don't have the degree for that. i don't i don't have the reason that todd blanche is pushing this is back to what he started to do, which is retribution. you didn't get what you want and

it's obviously not a clean answer when it comes to michael cohen. >> i mean, he's just going you sit, you know, this is really interesting. the truth is, you're really wanted to work in the white house. blanche asked no, sir. cohen says you really wanted to be chief of staff and not just be considered blanche presses? no, sir. cohen says you didn't simply indulge you really wanted to work in the white house plan shows again? no, sir. cohen response. >> this is basically the defendant here telling us what is because donald trump obviously knows that so i mean, to me like that's why he must have told them to press harder on this question. yeah, i don't know what it matters or the jury carriers this is again, beyond the scope of the he stayed i mean, cohen stays loyal to trump for a period, a long period of time, right? does that then goes on to and all of this stuff before he breaks with all let me tell you my hypothesis and i'd love to know what the lawyers thing i think todd blanche is in addition to the fact that he's making a lot of money from being a member of resistance. michael cohen. it todd blanche is suggesting that this is sour grapes, that this is the reason

that he is on this journey this hero's journey as michael cohen sees, it, is that he was screwed by donald trump. donald trump didn't bring him into the white house. i don't trump didn't give them a good christmas bonus and then he just cut them loose when after michael cohen's off that's where it's rated based on something having to do with taxicab medallion fraud, not anything related to trump. and now he's just being bitter. i mean, i'm not saying that i'm saying that's where tad's going. >> no, it's bizarre because this is this testimony here is even contradicted by the prosecution witnesses. i mean, we heard from stormy daniels lawyer that that he was by cocomo is complaining to him about not getting a job in the white house. so that he wanted to be ag and things like that. so this is a bizarre thing for him to be denying at this point. and i think the todd is probably enjoying drawing out that michael cohen is now in this moment actively lying to the jury. >> yet the thing is if you're

the prosecution trying to redirect this, you want to focus them. okay. whether he wanted to be in the white house are not as irrelevant. he wanted his money and the money he wanted back was bordered $20,000 that you said he would have. and by the way, he didn't just want to go to the white house. he actually remember that. remember the timeline here. if i go to the tablet, remember the timeline for everyone that payment to stormy daniel's came after the access hollywood tape. you're talking about october 27, 2016. you've got the integration a few months later, but look at the first payment to cohen, 30 $5,000, and march of 2017. so even if he did want to go to the white house, guess what, checks were actually signed from the white house by the now president of the united states. in that instance. and they have to read erected again, go back to that. you're talking about. book 8117 eton when he's the united states, he has signed his name aim to these things. there's conversations about whether or not todd blanche is now reviewing texts with cohen with his daughter. remember the fbi sees michael cohen's

phones and what is introduced as evidence from those phones is introduced to everybody, not just the prosecution, the defense gets a two and in the tax cohen's daughter told him she had read that reince priebus, the then-head of the republican national committee, was being considered. and you said he's pushing like a madman blanche asked because michael cohen saying that reince priebus is pushing like a madman to be chief of staff in november 13th, trump pick priebus to be chief of staff plants notes. you told your daughter you were disappointed ttd he asks cohen? so again there is all this testimony. there was all this evidence from michael cohen's phones seized by the fbi and some of it is being used right now to show that michael cohen is currently not telling the truth, that i wasn't considered. yes, there that's so kaitlan collins. that's where he's trying to the parse it. michael cohen being disappointed, not that it wasn't named white house chief of staff, but that he wasn't even considered white house chief of staff but we'll see

what the jury thinks about that yeah it's hard to know. >> it's impossible to know actually check what they're thinking. but this is what michael cohen testified about when the prosecution was questioning him, he said it wasn't necessarily that he thought he could be chief of staff, that he at least wanted his name out there. he felt like everything that he had done for donald trump he deserved and he talked openly acknowledged in court that it was part of an ego boost for him, and paula, this is a moment when it comes down to the credibility as jake was just saying, there what who does the jury believe? when did michael cohen start telling the truth and has he always just been saying things to benefit himself depending on the situation that he's blanche's doing it effective job of raising doubts about michael cohen's believability in this trial in what he said in his direct examination by prosecutors. >> now, this where they're talking about whether are you wanted to be at the white house or not. i think most people would have empathy for him that of course he wanted to be

considered, doesn't everyone want to be asked, doesn't everyone want to be considered? but the fact that michael cohen can't keep his story restraint about what his feelings were. that goes to credibility, even if you might extend some goodwill are some empathy towards him for at least possibly entertaining the idea so that it can happen to him and the prosecution knew this was coming because they showed these texts with michael cohen and his daughter in the courtroom. and this is what he turned to the jury was say because she was reading he supports and she was asking him, like down, are you getting a job in the white house? what's happening and he was basically saying he told his daughter not to worry about it. and then he went on to say hey i could still use my position outside the white house to benefit, to make money. i mean, he openly acknowledged all that in court the other day. >> well that was what for the moments that you saw trump have kind of a visceral or at least minimally that's the for donald trump reaction when he said how much money that he was making outside of the white house at that time and how he was getting clients based on bellman trump's name. now, there is as paula said real

moment of potential sympathy here with a jury because of course, you would want a job at the white house and then you see him talking to his daughter about it, explaining how he wasn't going to get the job, but how he was actually going to have another good opportunity and kind of putting the spin on it. so yes, this is what they're trying to break down, but i do agree with jake that a lot of this is going to be a look at is this michael cohen and his no sour grapes, as jake said, this, why he started to turn on donald trump because remember he didn't get anything that benefited him or that propelled him, that he started to turn on the person front of them and criminal defense attorney ron qb is outside the white house, are a hell type of courthouse. i keep mixing the two houses up rod, but as we're looking at this and listening to this it seems to be a two-pronged part to this questioning from todd blanche, which is one, michael cohen didn't get a job and wanted to and now he's vengeful after that it also to trying to make another point and hammering home with the jury. this is something else. he lied

about that he wasn't forthcoming about when he spoke to congress about what he actually but he didn't want a job inside trump's administration defense lawyer now, for over 40 years i never want to talk about the crime. >> my client allegedly committed, and i never want to talk about the evidence that eventually or allegedly incriminates my client. i very much want the witness to talk about checks that he sent to his daughter about rinse priebus and the chief of staff position let's just stay as far away from the actual incriminating evidence as possible. and i get it that at this point, todd blanche has managed to show it's a credibility contest as to which michael cohen, do you believe do you believe? the old sinful, vicious michael cohen or do you believe that sort of born again redemptive michael cohen, who apparently now has just been been caught in a why? but

remember, all of this can have a boomerang effect and certainly we'll on the defense because they can point out that michael cohen is a scab ross line weasel but in the end, the prosecution is going to stand before the jury and say, we didn't pick michael cohen, donald trump, pick michael kahn what they're noting right now that trump did ultimately pick reince priebus to be chief of staff and cohen clarifies, quote that i wasn't considered. >> yes, sir you know, it's funny what you said, just their ron about how you don't want to talk about what's actually at the heart of this because that was actually exactly what we heard from trump's allies when stormy daniels was on the stand and was making all of these allegations in great detail. about her sexual encounter that she alleges happened with donald trump is they were saying, well, this isn't documents case that's not even about why we're here in the courtroom and you're saying maybe that is them using that to their advantage, talking about things, whether michael cohen got a job, we're not in the white house, isn't actually

relevant to what ultimately is here at the heart of this, which is falsifying business records but you're saying that they just want to talk about that instead of focusing on those allegations well, that's right. >> and honestly it's not hard to understand why the actual evidence is fairly whereas it's much easier and certainly makes for much griner better press coverage if you're out there attacking the crucial witness about all of the lives that he is told at every point in his past but ultimately, don't think that's going to make terribly much difference to the jury, although honestly, we have no idea who's ahead. who's behind, whose scoring, who's not. and we won't know any of those things until the jury speaks. this is not a sporting event one right now. todd blanche is pushing michael cohen on. what title you want

it. but as michael cohen told his daughter that trump wasn't happy with the title that he was seeing gang, which was blanche pushing cohen to admit that he wanted to be a special counsel inside the trump administration does the jury factor that in though if it was someone who who clearly wanted something and didn't get it. and then this could be seen as vengeful posturing after that, could that resonate with this? sorry? >> i will check on runs, audio, make sure he can hear us as he is sending outside the courthouse were here on the other side of the courthouse. >> and paula, i mean, this is very clearly plea atactic that you're seeing todd blanche use of trying to get co-ed to admit this even though it's not this has nothing to do with the checks and the payback because had already happened at that point, michael cohen had already paid stormy daniels by the time all of this was happening, going back and

forth. >> and heal. >> it reminds you, michael cohen was so upset when he got his bonus at christmas that year, said that they just got their bonuses in christmas vacation style in a card that they got and his when he opened it, realized it was too so it's less than what he thought it was going to be. >> any kind of speaks is mindset at this time. any saying my daughter may have called it special counsel to the president saying he wanted to be personal attorney, but she ultimately was. but it's fixed his mindset at the time of feeling great. but trump didn't do, wasn't willing to do for him what he did for trump i think one of the places that they could go with this based on my conversations with people familiar with the strategy is that remember in 2017, he does kind of get this role in formerly, right? >> he's kind of representing it as a personal attorney outside the white house, working on behalf of the family. he's also submitting the invoices. for legal services it's that are at the heart of this case. and one of the things that trump team is going to argue is that yes, he was submitting invoices. he insist that they were false and they were meant as part of a conspiracy to falsified

business records. but we argue that in fact this was all part of his work for the president, the role that he wanted, the role he had already always done. he pointed on direct examination that he didn't have a retainer sener. they're going to point out that he had never had a retainer agreement in the entire time you'd work for trump. so that shouldn't be significant. now, this is likely all going to leave 22017 and the work cohen was doing outside the white house for trump in those invoices, he submitted. so i think eventually they will be able to bring this back to the case, but it also speaks to the fact that he was aggrieved michael cohen is saying, i didn't want the general counsel's office. i always wanted the title personal attorney to the president. always said there's no shame of being personal attorney to the president. this is a well war testimony for him and blanche is challenging that saying communications suggests there was no mention of personal attorney in these texts with his daughter. i mean, they're really getting into the heart of this and i do think this speaks to the defense strategy, which is take each part of what they believe he's lying about, even if

it's not actually worked, they're going to get to later in the de about the case yeah. >> and then cohen says, no, i always wanted to be personal attorney. and now as blanche and cohen are going back-and-forth over whether cohen had wanted to be in the white house role. trump is starting to look in cohen's direction, which says to me that trump is hearing some kind of tension and michael cohen's voice and wants to the what his reaction is here would have things we know is that donald trump has been urging todd blanche to try and get a reaction from michael cohen, michael cohen, somebody we know is very reactionary so far. it's only been slight hints at the kind of reaction they're looking for a little bit of an escalation of his voice, a little bit of talking faster, but not the kind of all out argument that we saw during his civil fraud case with the habba. >> what this is so different than when susan nicholas was cross-examined? stormy daniels, susan nicholas is a season defense attorney. todd blanche has not done a ton of cross-examinations. he was a prosecutor before this. this isn't really his bread and butter. he's done some, but

not this. you can see the difference in their styles susan nicholas sayyed of very rapid-fire questioning. she'd asked a question she knew was going to get that there was going to be an objection to but still, it's already out there. very already heard it. she already asked it. >> todd blanche is sticking his career in many ways on this case. he left his firm could defend trump in this case he took some chances. i think on tuesday doing that crowd, that cross-examination jumping all over the place, bringing up some pretty it's on it's amusing a times offensive social media posts in previous statements that didn't quite work. it's clear he used yesterday to review his strategy, going back this from a different direction and is much, much more effective and expect by the end of the day, they will get into more of what cohen said on direct examination. >> yeah. jake, back to you as we continue to see only back-and-forth between todd, blanche, and michael cohen? >> yeah. and todd blanche really making the case that in this theory, in this narrative from the defense, from the trump side, that all of this is

rooted in michael cohen not being asked to go to the white house with donald trump after trump won in november 2016 he blanche continues to push cohen on his true desires to be a part of the trump administration. cohen acknowledges he told his daughter trump was not happy with the title i wanted. blanche pushes cohen to admit he wanted the position of special counsel to the president within the trump administration. my daughter may have called it special counsel to the president. cohen says the rollout and asked president trump four was personal attorney to the president. cohen says, he has he says that he had wanted to hybrid role with access to trump, but also outside the government even after november 2016, you are still looking for a position in the white house plan chest? yes or no, sir. i was still looking for that same time, personal attorney to the president at what point did you switch from wanting to work in the white house to being personal attorney blanche asks, i didn't want the general counsel's office. cohen says i made that crystal clear. i always wanted the title personal attorney to the

president. i always said there's no shame of being personal attorney to the president of the united states. as blanche and cohen are going back and forth over whether cohen had wanted a white house role. trump is looking in cohen's direction. we're told your daughter said that president trump in his new people were walking all over you plan tasks? yes, sir. cohen said you agreed with that, didn't you? blanche asked at the time cohen says and we should remember and we're getting the clip ready. but in 2019, when cohen did testify before congress, this was an argument that jim jordan, the chairman of the house judiciary committee, made to michael cohen. you're only i'm doing this because you're bidder you didn't get the roll in the white house that you wanted and that's why you have turned on donald trump. bland said, you agreed with that, didn't you? this is the idea as posited by michael cohen's daughter to michael cohen, that trump in his new people were walking all over him. you agreed with that, didn't you? cohen says, at the time, again, this is not necessarily relevant to the

case itself against donald trump, but this is the defense trying to undermine anything. michael cohen says what do you think let's start with laura, than elie is as effective? is it working it is very clear that today's michael cohen does not like donald trump. there are suitcases, if not truckloads of information to support that particular conclusion the idea of the jury looking at this and saying, so you were kind of mastermind two then do that. >> what you have alleged to have done all with the hopes of one day having this sdny pass on a case. the federal government pass on a case. alvin bragg to be elected and then build this case and then include you went through a subpoena all to have their vengeance ever not being hired in washington, dc might be a stretch for the jurors, but what is odd to me is that this look a very easy concession. he could make. >> you lose credibility when you don't say, i don't know when you really don't know something, when you don't

admit to what's obvious and i don't see how it actually hurt michael cohen to admit i was just appointed. >> i wanted a job there, especially after all that, i have said i've done for him that plays which includes helping to get you there by trying to allegedly hide these payment of stormy daniel's? yeah. >> because michael cohen refuses to say just that this has become a double-edge sword. now, now they get to argue, he's paid her a he's being dishonest about it because it's in confident the his claim now that he really didn't care if you went into the white house with trump or not is contradicted. a by prior prosecution witnesses. i think it was keith davidson. i'm not entirely certain, but i think it was keith davidson who said he told me call me, told me he was really ticked off. he didn't get the job and b, to some extent but it was keith davidson because it was odd, right and i think davidson even remarked on how odd it was that michael cohen, who we barely knew, was vent extend them about the texts with the daughter when you want to be careful with texts between a parent and a child, but they do support the idea that michael cohen wall this was playing out

while he's getting passed over it's so let me just ask mr. lanza, you were on the campaign in 2016 what what is your memory of michael cohen's expectations for the job he was going to get in the administration. listen, if you haven't yet, and i do and i definitely want to be very careful because i don't want to get called to testify. right? right. for sure. >> but at least to me, michael cohen was pretty adamant that he wanted to be white house council. he said everything he was doing was to be white house counsel. he's always inject himself with the space that hours in which was the tv space because trump karatay a lot about it, just so you know, i always viewed who's always positioning and he was pretty clear that he wanted to be white house counsel. that doesn't mean i want to testify before anything monday or tuesday there wednesday. >> yeah. but you're asking me i'm not michael cohen. i'll tell you the truth. >> i'm sorry. yeah. no much sort of big picture question here is like his cohen perjured himself here. >> like what is getting himself in trouble by saying this if there's all this testimony to the contrary trump put up to take the stand for that to be true. >> and i mean, i guess they're

not going to be doing that so well, but they couldn't why would they practice too wishy-washy for draft i mean, the short answer is it happens all the time where a witness says that never happened. some other witnesses, yes, it did. now it's not great if you're the prosecutor, but it's not going to rise to the level work and not to mention also their are all these other much more significant lies he told under oath before congress, before judge, before that i just it's the risks that he has been having on the stand, right? that something bad could happen to him if he didn't tell the truth, their hinging there hanging a lot on that. >> there may ask a question on redirect. yes. yeah. they might. >> which begs the question that you asked laura. >> and i'll put it to you. i don't think this will make you fall before this mexico tomorrow just leave an address. >> just leave it. the subpoena actually, just on this issue, just tell the truth four tau consistent stories about his desire to work in the white house if it's not the hill that he needs to die on in order to help the prosecution

make their case that could convict donald trump. >> here it is. by the way, i blanche asked, did you express disappointment to pastor scott repeatedly, the president trump hadn't brought you into the administration but go ahead. >> i'm sorry. darrell scott is a member of trump's diversity coalition. >> i mean, it less the question becomes is that i asked myself here today is why would michael cohen ever tell the truth? >> so him lying under oath, right now is sort of consistent from the michael cohen i've interacted with in 2016, got to know through 2020 you know, it's it's sort of line is sort of second nature. it's seems like low-hanging fruit to tell the truth. why would he like especially with so many of us on the campaign and the communication shop, who know what he has said to us, right? and obviously apology pastor skype has to daryl scott, a member of trump's diversity coalition had talked to had talked to michael cohen and blanche's pressing that you express this appointment to pastor scott, president and trump had brought you into the administration. cohen says not into the administration. i knew the role i wanted. i may have expressed frustration by inch asks cohen, why did you need to

ask somebody put in a good word when you've testified you spoke to trump almost every day during the campaign blanche has gone back to colin's application for early termination of supervised release as part of that application, do you recall there were fake legal cases? cases including the letter around that application, prosecutors object. uh, judge is now allowing the question cohen is looking at the jury as these explaining how he used. he used artificial intelligence to search for court cases. trump is also staring intently at cohen as he gives this explanation about the ai cases? i did not have ai on minden go-kart on this, and certainly not for helping michael cohen to present false information. i do want to bring one quick thing while this is going on and that is the idea of bitterness being injected into the debate before. and this is congressmen jim jordan, the chairman of the judiciary committee of the republican chairman of the judiciary committee trump's most ardent defenders in congress. going out, michael cohen on this when he testified in 2019, before congress mr. cohen, hi, how

long did you how long did you work in the white house? i never worked in the white house. that's the point, isn't mr. cohen? no, sir. yes, it is. no, it's not. so you wanted to work in the white house? no, sir. can get brought to the dance, sir. now, i was extremely proud to be personal attorney to the president of the united states of america. >> i did not want to go to the white house. i was off for jobs so brian leinz, that's not your memory of the fact that it feels like lying to congress to me yeah. >> ally, what does this ai stuff? >> so michael cohen has been asking to get out from supervised release when you're finished serving a federal prison sentence, you are then on supervised release, meaning your home, but you have to report get into pretrial services. there could be limitations on what you do. cohen has asked to end his supervised release early, i think four times now, in one of those there were there was fact-finding on this. the facts or michael cohen ended up finding some cases on his computer. turns out he was

using an ai, general finding them for what purpose? because he was trying to hey, a motion illegal motion to the judge saying, here's why you should release me early from supervised release. he had some cases that he thought supported and he has an attorney. very well yeah. so michael cohen goes into his computer enters whatever his search query is into something that he claimed the judge agreed that it was inadvertent cohen said, give me cases. i don't know what give me cases that support what i'm doing here. and he gets this list of cases cohen then forwards those fake cases to his actual lawyer who puts them in a brief that gets submitted to the court. the judge realizes these are fake cases, has a whole hearing about it and we do have to say though it's important, the judge found that it was an inadvertent missed sloppy inadvertent mistake by michael cohen. he wasn't trying to trick the judge with fake cases. he probably thought he was googling, but it was actually in google gemini or when blanche says as part of this application, do you recall there were fake legal cases, including in the letter in that application? cohen tries to explain when you say he say he

says they weren't accurate, you mean when you say an accurate blanche asks, you mean the case is didn't exist under that specific citation. that's correct. cohen says, plant follows up the three cases that you gave to your attorney were not real cases. that's correct. >> cohen concedes. then blanche confirmed with cohen he's he'd been disbarred and was no longer laurie at the time he provided his attorney with the fake cases. kaitlan collins fascinating, bizarre, wild wild stuff i mean, look at a predicted it, except maybe all of us, jake, we're watching all of this is todd blanche is circling back with my go cohen about the fact that he did want this job inside the white house, just how much he wanted that he now confirms cohen and he has been disbarred and is no longer lawyer at the time he was provided his attorneys with fake cases. >> i was obviously an embarrassing moment. police grade as this is happening, but it was just kind of situation in the case or even a judge found he doesn't he wasn't

doing it intentionally. it just kinda speaks to what they're trying to do is embarrassed michael cohen. they're trying to humiliate him. yeah, they're bringing up the moment, but also, i do wonder if the juries hearing in that that this is clearly someone who was loyal to trump and in so many ways tried to do so much room and trump was fine with humiliating him. what did not feel the need to bring him into the white house when he rewarded a lot of other people would white else jobs. it also so work qualified for them that is certainly an interpretation. >> what i see on the screen right now though they're shifting to something arguably completely unrelated, which is blanche's confronted to about the logistics of how he called keith schiller and spoke to trump to discuss the stormy daniels matter. this is going to be a key point for the defense. this is one of their key objectives objectives today is to go back to this phone call that cohen has testified and challenge his recollection of it and also challenged whether it was actually about stormy daniels, and they believe this will be key to

their defense of their client to undercut the cohen said he called keats flare. you want to talk about stormy daniels when in fact, they're going to present evidence that this was actually about something completely different. so here they are moving into what he testified on direct examination. >> the reason they did all of that before they got to this was they wanted to show the jury this is a guy who lives who lives again, who has trouble acknowledging his lies. so now we're going to ask him what's at the heart of this and that you are basically relying on just his interpretation, his recollection of these conversations with people like trump's bodyguard, keith schiller, and blanche question before you get into that he's leaning on the podium, is he's asking these questions and asking cohen how the call worked to keith schiller put trump on speaker or did he take the call privately? i mean, he's going to try to question him on things he may not remember right now is kind of the point that we saw todd blanche making on tuesday. he was going back and forth asking michael cohen, do you remember this happening? michael cohen thing. i don't recall. >> okay. will you recall so

clearly specific conversations that you have now testified do but you don't recall something that happened a year ago or six months ago. so this was part of that questioning their now cohen says, both would occur in terms of schiller, either putting him on speaker phone or giving trump the phone privately. he says he doesn't recall this specific call. now, again, one thing to find our viewers is that donald trump never really made calls himself. he always went through someone else who is near him. so it's not strange that he would have to call schiller in order to talk to donald trump often did that. they would call the people who are around him. but now they're getting into the details of this likely as policy, i'm trying to catch him in alive and also this here's the first time he's ever mentioned this. >> and they are going to seize on this. they're going to say, wait a second, you've had how many interviews with law enforcement officials over the years and you're just now recalling specific details of a conversation you had in 20162 days ago when you testified in this trial this could be a real

problem for michael cohen depending on how we handle this and retired new york supreme court judge diane qizan is back with us and judge, since we just lost focus, this testimony has gone on. blanche is now asking about a call on october 24 at 8:00, 2:00 p.m. he is going to get into the specifics here clearly, they would like to trip michael cohen up on what exactly he remembers as he did testify to great precision about what trump was communicating on these calls with them. how successful do you believe this line of questioning from the defenses so far? >> well, i think what the defense has been doing obviously is trying to dirty up michael cohen as much as they could so that when they do get to the nitty-gritty, it raises questions as to whether he is he is believable or not. i mean, here's where the district attorney has a pretty heavy lift in terms of rehabilitating their witness. and i think of what i used to call my central casting speech when i was a da for ten years

in that office and you get up on and summation and you say, look if i had gone to central casting for my star witness, would it be this guy? no. >> but i take my witnesses as they come and then try and obviously ameliorate which lies are important and which lies aren't. >> in other words, which lies are about tangential matter but you know that the judge will also be telling the jury, i'm sure someone's going to ask for what's called an interested witness charge since michael cohen did say that he has an interest in the outcome of this case, and the judge will say, look, you're not required to reject the testimony when even interested witness, but also you're not required to accept it either. the choice is yours. so this gets down to the fact that all of this is really in the hands of the jury. what they want to accept, what they choose to reject.

>> how does a jury typically deal with inconsistencies? because right now, todd blanche is saying, okay, well, you remembered that you had this phone call with keith schiller via keith schiller and with donald trump. all of a sudden, two days ago when you testified about that, but you hadn't brought it up to prosecutors before. he's trying to bring up michael cohen's grand jury testimony here that ultimately got trump indicted in this case. it's not clear if the judge is going to allow it because they've just approached the bend is prosecutors objected, but if it's something that michael cohen didn't bring up before, but he is bringing up now, how does a jury see that? >> well, again, there's a jury instruction for everything you know, there is a jury instruction that also tells jurors had a handle inconsistencies inconsistencies internally and inconsistencies between witnesses and the language goes something like, are they the kinds of inconsistencies that you would normally expect? to exist over a course of time or are they

major inconsistencies that go to the heart of the matter again, i'm not using the exact words, but that's the general idea. and i think juries will sit down and parse out every single thing they've heard and decide whether these these inconsistencies matter or don't. that's why it's so important in this case. >> for the for the prosecutor to have all of as much corroborating evidence as they can because michael cohen does come with a lot of heavy baggage one, the jury instructions we've got a ways before that. it's trial is wrapping up. michael collins allows witness for the prosecution, but what's going to happen over the next few days is the jury is the court's off tomorrow. there is no court as they're typically would be, because donald trump is attending his high school son's graduation. and so if the jury is left today it 4:00 p.m. with justice

cross-examination of michael cohen. >> how do you believe that sits with them over over a long weekend before they're back on monday when process the uterus would have that chance to try to rehabilitate michael cohen as he saying he doesn't recall one way or the other as blanche is offering to call up this testimony well well, the judge is going to tell them try don't think about this over the weekend. clear your heads, et cetera. remember, they can't talk to one another. they can't talk to anybody. but else. >> jurors are presumed to follow the instructions the separation instructions of the court. >> it basically it's going to be spinning around in each of these 12 heads, right? or however many alternatives there are as well. and they're going to be thinking about this. i mean, this is i think a positive thing for the defense to have his testimony with all of its in all its glory, so to speak, spinning around in their head, i do not know if the da

is going to get to the point where they're going to be able to do any rebuttal this afternoon. i think they're ending raleigh, so i suspect that's going to have to wait until the jurors come back yeah judge kissel, a lot is hanging on this testimony. we'll see how it progresses so over the next several hours and paula reid she mentioned the jury there and what's going to be in their heads and she just mentioned the alternatives. there's four of them, not one of them has had to step in here. it has been the same 12 original jurors, which is unusual right? >> yeah, that is extraordinary because we really thought at the beginning of this trial that this was going to be a bigger problem. >> people just fearing for what it would mean for their lives if they were on on this story, we all know what happens if you come under the ire of the former president and can mean threats for you, for your family. it's a lot for anyone to take on. so the fact that this group has remained intact and we did lose some folks early on, but we haven't lost anyone since they sat the jury. i think that's extraordinary. also, what is extraordinary is what todd blanche finch is

doing right now. this is probably the most effective thing he is done up until this point. he's pointing out that michael cohen for the first time, you know, all the investigations he has been involved with suddenly recalled what could be a critical piece of evidence for the prosecution suddenly we're calling this conversation and i believe that in pretty short order they're going to bring up some receipts that could show that this conversation was about something completely unrelated to stormy daniels. and if that is the path that they are going to walk here, this could be really damaging for cohen, and this is the october phone call that happened when the stormy daniels thing was resurfacing michael cohen, sounding the alarm as he portrayed it in his opening statement and then he was raising the concern getting through keith schiller, trump's body man to get to trump. keith schiller, who we notably have not heard from. it is someone who is still very much considered to be loyal to donald trump, but also could have been a useful witness here. yeah. >> yeah. look, there are quite a few people that we haven't heard from that could have been useful witnesses because here

which will ultimately land on the prosecution to say why they didn't bring them. >> allen weisselberg being one of them, keith schiller now being another these are people who could have cooperated. >> michael cohen story. again, the one thing we have to keep going back to here is that the entire argument of the prosecution hinges on michael cohen, whether or not the jury believes him, her not. so now, after looking at the transcript of the meeting with prosecutors, cohen says he does have a recollection of talking with them about the call is over 24. he may have tested during previous conversations that it was not about stormy daniels and that he told him they talked about something i mean, i assume will see it soon, paula, but when you clearly see if they clearly seemed to be saying that who's talking about something else. >> yeah. and there were now or we're a little ahead in terms of the updates are getting inside and i know from talking resources around this time, michael cohen is being targeted by prank calls. and i believe that the defense is going to bring up that he had a conversation with an alleged prank rancor and then reached

out for here blanche out costco, and about a number of harassing calls cohen receiving around the same ti secret service on them, and then reaches out to keith schiller about how he can get help from the secret service with this harassment that he is facing and have todd blanche can establish that that in fact was the subject of his conversation with keith schiller conversations that he testified to about his efforts to suppress negative stories. so let's see, we're blanche goes with this. >> well, again, just one last part of this. we remember the he spent the vast majority of this time cross-examining talking about how michael cohen is a liar and only wants to get something out of this trial. and now you have him here and the prank caller, we believe according to these accounts, was 14 years old jake. >> things have taken a bit of a turn and now blanche's let me show you and beginning to cite a message from michael cohen on the witness stand. >> well, we knew who kaitlan collins that they were going to be aggressive against michael cohen. and it seems that mr. blanche had a few tricks up his

sleeve. things we did not anticipate. we anticipated that he was going to ask michael cohen about a number of things that he had said under oath. they had since admitted were not true about contradictions. he had made in terms of telling one judge that he was pleading guilty to a crime because he's guilty of it, telling another judge that he was never guilty of that crime than trying to get permission from another judge you have unsupervised release. but now we're learning that he had even more than we knew i want to bring in former trump white house communications director alyssa farah griffin alyssa. so michael cohen says he never sought a job at the white house. the prosecutors, i mean, michael michael cohen said he never sought a job at the white house. ryan lanza here who worked on the 2016 campaign, says, that's not true. he recalls michael cohen wanting to be white house council. we have some journalists on our panel here saying that's not true. they were call michael cohen saying he was going to join the white house. he was very excited to do so according

to plans, by the way, cohen, this is about the harassing calls. cohen said the person would have to explain to the secret service. the person replied, i'm 14, please don't do this. this is when michael cohen was getting harassing phone calls, there is a bloc feature on phones, by the way, if you're getting harassing phone calls, in any case, alyssa farah griffin tell me, what do you think so listen, i was working for a number of republican lawmakers at that time, several of whom would go into the administration, including mecole rainy as omb director it was widely known and believed now, michael cohen never told me firsthand, i'm going into the white house. >> i want to but it was widely discussed that he was angling for attorney general or to be white house counsel. that's i mean, there's dozens and dozens of people around washington who could corroborate that. my jaw hit the floor when i heard him denying that is a practical matter, which is probably draining us to this discussion, but i'll share anyway, he likely wouldn't have qualified for a job in the west wing. you have to be able to get a

top-secret security clearance. they would have gone through his finances, frankly, this home equity line probably would've shown up the payment that he got back likely would have shown up on a financial disclosure, but yeah, that really struck me and to be honest, i do not think this is going the way the prosecution had hoped. >> so. one of the things going on right now in chord is it that mr. cohen is being asked about the fact that he said that he had a conversation with president trump on october 24 at eight p.m. about the stormy daniels matter. and he is now walking. michael cohen through the reality of the phone call of october 24 at 7:00 p.m. when he was getting harassing phone calls from somebody and he says, i got your number and the person reply and i'm going to report you to the sea secret service and the person says, i'm 14, please don't do you recall its 7408 texting keith schiller, trump's body guy because security guy at that point about this 14-year-old

plan tasks, i don't recall. cohen said he says cohen asked who she is, you should speak to and keith schiller replies at 8:00, two according to blanche telling cohen, two column, blanche is pulling up the call log. this is the call that you testified at about on tuesday, but you had a conversation with president trump that you called keith schiller and it wasn't to talk to keith schiller was to talk to president trump about the stormy daniels deal and to move forward, it seems to me like todd blanche is effectively making the argument that this phone call was actually about a 14-year-old who is making harassing phone calls of michael cohen we've talked other prosecutors, former prosecutors here are less severe griffin about whether or not given michael cohen's credibility issues, they would have brought this case and at least to have said no as somebody who i know wants and your in your words, donald trump to face accountability for his actions what are your thoughts on this case well, two

things really what i was waiting to hear from michael cohen specifically with him being this final star witnesses. >> what is the moment in his definition that he broke with trump? if you brought me up in one of these, i'd be able to say it was the lies around the election. it was the events that eventually led up to january race sex. many of us who broke with him can point to something fundamental that was a breaking point and that's not been as clear with him, so it's allowed the defense to kind of bloody him up with these are the lies you told these are your motives and maybe money you are motivated or grievance. and i think that's very difficult, but more broad oddly, this case, i don't think fundamentally matters the way some of the heavier ones do. the mishandling of national security secrets, the investigate the trial around january 6, and the overturning of the election. and if he ends up getting off on this case because it wasn't a strong one to begin with and it relied on a known liar to convict him. i think it really blurs in the public perception. this of those other cases. it feeds this notion of he's a victim and it's a witch-hunt i think this could be a disaster if this ends up being something that they can't prove it,

it's a hung jury or they actually end up acquitting him. >> so the jury's not going to hear this, so don't worry how would, based on while you would never be accepted as a juror, your tube, you have too much bias, no offense. what you experienced with the defendant. but do you think that they are proving this case within with within without a reasonable doubt. i mean, like, have they cleared the burden for you for me even with my strong feelings about donald trump, my knowledge of how he behaves, i couldn't today convict beyond a reasonable doubt, michael cohen is just such a problematic figure in this one cross i was just waiting to see somebody who was aboveboard didn't step and it didn't lie, didn't end up getting kind of hostile and pushing back in some of these challenges. >> and it's, it's hard for me to believe him when he's misrepresenting something as fundamental as having wanted a job in the white house let's farah griffin. >> it's always good to have you on. thank you so much. really appreciated the jurors are now seeing the text exchange between keith schiller

and michael cohen were not seeing it in the reporters in the juror in the courtroom because the phone numbers have not been redacted on the exhibit blanche reads a text that cohen sent the shoulder right before the calls on october 24, and dana, once again this is brand new and seemingly hurtful testimony damaging testimony. cohen's text to shiller, who can i speak to regarding harassing calls to my cell and office? the dope forgot to block his number again, there is a bloc feature on cell phones, but chiller responds, call me. so i mean, this is this is undermining the idea from two days ago when michael cohen testified that this very phone call that he made to keith schiller was actually him calling keith. keith gives the phone to donald trump and president elect donald are about to know, then private citizen donald trump candidate don't trump. he picks up the phone and then they talk about the stormy daniels deal. todd

blanche says the texture that is at 4:00 p.m. cohen texted chiller the phone number of the 14 year-old prank calling him. this does seem to undermine what michael cohen said two days ago. >> yeah absolutely. in a big way the question is whether or not blanche is going to continue this line of questioning and say when you shallow were actually on the phone after this alleged prank call and the boss was there. did you use that opportunity or did he use that opportunity to have a conversation about stormy daniels? >> and that's something i guess if they'll bring up on redirect, the prosecution trying to salvage this part of the testimony, trying to solve it's just witness will say. and then you talked about the stormy daniels deal after you took care of this meddling teenager? >> i mean, for many people, perhaps the jury, maybe in the audience as well. i think a 14-year-old, is that we're where we are in this moment in time. >> but remember, they are trying to discredit him not just as somebody who's a liar, but now somebody who is just a

joke, but they can say this is someone you should not take seriously. >> and i just not believed don't take them seriously. >> but why that can play and maybe cut against them is because this is a documents case. >> and i know that going back, he is not the most exciting now ocean that people with the documents case, and so they had to pre corroborate him because they knew this was coming. they knew they were tried to discredit him, try to make them seem like he was somebody who was not to be taken seriously. so every moment of those things is important. but for this effective cross, they're trying to get across the jury. is that this person if someone you should not even have to listen to you today because he's so unbelievable and not to be believed. >> well, i think one of the things that they've accomplished today blanche's raising his voice now as he's asking cohen to say asking cohen if the call records show a conversation with shoulder about the harassment not with trump about daniels so what they're doing here, ellie, is they have i guess so the

effectiveness will be up to the jury but todd blanche has now made the point not only has michael cohen lied before congress, not only has he lied before various judges, not only has he lied in any number of places, he has lied before you today. michael cohen says part of it was the 14. this is about which of the call? all what was the call about? part of it was a 14-year-old by keith was with mr. trump at the time and there was more potentially than this, interesting word. cohen is now saying, i don't know that it's accurate, blanche just pacing and flailing his arms were told this is a really important moment potentially depending how it finishes up here. okay. michael cohen on his door back testimony said i had this phone call in late october of 2016. i called keith schiller and he patched me through to trump. i don't remember if he put me on speaker, but i was speaking to the two of them and i told them then that stormy daniels had been paid and the matter was

resolved we've been asking when are they going to go with the core? this is the core of the case. blanche has raised two points. number one, the texts leading up to the call that day show that you are texting keith schiller. nothing about stormy daniel's, but about this 14-year-old was harassing one second, cohen says, well, part of it was a 14-year-old. okay. i know the keith was with mr. trump at the time. there's potentially more than this. blanche says that was a lie. you did not talk to president trump. you talk to keith schiller. you can admit it. and cohen says, no, sir, i don't know that it's accurate. >> and here's the problem. if cohen story now is what we talked about both those things we talked about the 14 year-old who was harassing me and stormy, daniel's. the problem is it appears michael cohen has never mentioned this call being about stormy daniel's in his prior grand jury three testimony in his extensive prior statements that he's given to the da, todd blanche, open this line of questioning by saying you never mentioned this october call being about stormy daniel's when you testified in the grand jury, when you spoke to the prosecutor's, if that's the case, it's a big problem and it goes to the hardest matter. so blanche is saying now your memory as you're testifying

truthfully on tuesday this day, and blanche continues a 1306 phone call. >> and you had enough time to update schiller about all the problems you were having and also, i'm sorry, i'm a one woman, 30, 36 second phone call. sorry. we're getting shorthand from inside the courtroom, a one-minute and 36 second phone call, and you have enough time in that to update schiller about but all the problems you were having with his 14-year-old and also if they president trump about the status of the stormy daniels situation because you had to keep him informed. cohen says, i always ran everything by the boss immediately. and in this case, it would have been saying everything has been taken care of. it's been resolved cohen is maintaining his composure at this point. brian, you none of this seems surprising to you i mean, it's the michael i know from 2016, just he has a huge struggle to truth it's just being extended here to 2024. and i suspect next year he'll be line again because that's what michael cohen does, is does seem pretty bad though. >> this does seem i feel like there are a lot of questions that have been raised and we're going to have to see how they

ultimately conclude this exchange to figure out how to answer any of them. it's devastating. he also has to go through keith schiller to call donald trump. we've known, but i think it reminds jurors about how close was see what is he up to me very cohen he's maintaining his composure cnn special live coverage of donald trump's hush money cover-up trial continues after we squeeze in this quick break, stay with us did you know sling has your favorite news programs are just $40 a month my favorite news for just $40 a month my favorite news for just $40 a month. $40 a month? >> like favorite for just $40 a month $40 get your favorite

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