of an incredible place, but sad that it has to exist. aaron, i would tell you this that overall, if you look get the drug crisis in this country over the last few years, the amount of usage has actually gone down. but at the same time, drugs have become deadlier they've become easier to obtain for people. so a lot of these kids are, they're getting them on social media, the ordered on social media. though venmo, the drug dealer and they'll get their drugs and that's why adolescent drug overdoses have doubled over the past few years. one of the things keith said to me, aaron, that really stuck out because i have three teenagers as you know he said, a lot of parents, they simply don't know for months that their kid has started using. and i'm not saying that to scare parents, but i think it's really important that you understand that, but also that the school can be a place where kids are an active recovery, not just sporadically, but for years at a time. >> all right. dr. sanjay gupta. thank you so much. >> you've got an aaron. thank you. >> and don't miss the champions for change. one hour

special saturday night at nine eastern ac30 60 starts now good evening. >> on what what a blockbuster de the criminal hush money trial. the former president blockbuster, because after what has at times been a man during cross-examination, the prosecution's most important witness, michael cohen, today, trump attorney todd blanche was able to repeatedly raised questions about cohen's honesty, not just in the past, but his honesty in his testimony before this jury this week, i was in the courtroom this morning just before the lunch break. blanche presented text messages to cohen between him and former trump bodyguard keith schiller. the messages were from october 24, 2016 and they appear to contradict testimony cohen gave monday on direct examination that goes to the heart of the alleged scheme to falsify business records earlier in the week, cohen testified about texting schiller he said under oath that he needed to talk to trump urgently and schiller was always by his psi. he testified

that he use schiller's phone to speak to the former president. cohen told the jury in his earlier testimony that the purpose of the call was, quote, to discuss the stormy daniels matter and the resolution of it but today, todd blanche did something that prosecutors had apparently not done, or at least not discussed with michael cohen. and their questioning of him on the witness stand. blanche read previous it's text messages cone had received shortly before he texted schiller and they showed that cohen was responding to a 14-year-old crank color who had been pranking him by phone for days. cohen texted schiller, informing him about the prank calls and wanting help from schiller about the calls. and that appears is why he then called schiller blanche appeared to have trapped cohen arguing that the subsequent call between him and schiller last only 96 seconds. in question whether in this quote comes to us from our reporters in the room, you had enough time to update schiller about all the problems you were having and also update president trump about the status of the stormy daniels situation? it's important to remember that cohen had never

mentioned this 14 year-old crank color and testimony. blanche directly stated that he lied under oath earlier this week about speaking within canada a trump on that day, it was a major moment on a day that's all several other notable developments, including that sources tell cnn the defense may call a former attorney for cohen, robert costello to continue the defense argument that the onetime fixer for the former president is a liar, who have the judge also suggested summations could begin next week, there's a lot to talk to with our panel joining us as robert ray of former president's council during his first impeachment trial, former federal prosecutor jeffrey 2-bit and seen an anchor, abby phillip, also three more who witnessed that pivotal moment. in a courtroom today are seen. anchor kaitlan collins went after the lunch break, norm eisen, who was the council that was democrats during that first impeachment was there this morning and correspondent kara scannell. kara, what was that moment? the one that stood out to you owe by far? absolutely. i mean, it was the big moment of the day and the way that todd blanche did it spent lot of the morning on these inconsistent statements drawing

out when michael cohen may have lied and then he gets to this phone call and he begins by saying, you spoke with the former. you testified on monday, you spoke with trump on the 24th. cohen says yes and he says, do you remember was on speaker phone or did schiller hand the phone because like don't remember. so he's he's setting it up in such a way that you think you're going back to this. and then he says, and what about these text messages? and then goes exactly as you just described, just confronting cohen with these text messages in the timestamps that were so close and that showed keith schiller saying to him cohen's complaining at this 14 real calling him. shiller says at 8:02, call me coming calls him at 8:02. it's a 96 second phone call and cohen then says, well, and blanche's just building this crescendo. he is focusing in on this on cohen and he's like admitted you lied and you made up this call in cohen says, i'm not sure that's accurate later on, he tried to correct

that a bit and said that the reason why he remembered this specifically was because this was as he put it, so important, such a critical thing. and so he had in his memory has been telling the story for six years. i'm not sure that that did the job though. >> norm. i mean, did you believe michael cohen in what his response to this was because his response and basically evolved into well, i was doing both when he was cornered, he could have basically either said you know what, i misremembered this, which would have been devastating or what he did which was i did both i both talked to keith schiller about this 14 year-old boy who i want to get vengeance against, which was bizarre enough and i had time to tell president trump is crucial piece of information which is i'm going ahead with the stormy deal and trump agreed and there was a ferocious debate in the courtroom between the people who thought it was a true perry

mason moment and some in my row who said really, yes, george, our friend george conway. he said, what is everybody getting so exercise? surge i think the same demand is around hello to everybody, sitting just just in front of andersen. i wanted to grab you and be like, oh, my god, norton, are you hearing we had a quick conversation about it. it was a good moment of cross. it was a very professional and powerful moment of cross i think if cohen had been shown those texts by the prosecution on the direct examination, if they had refresh his recollection, there's nothing implausible about, but that's what right. no, i think boats, it seems like a huge mistake. by prosecutors was not the best. it was not did they nine and no. did they not look at what

the texas there it was not their finest moment. i my experience has been it wasn't it was a blow on the chin, but my experience 30 years of doing this is that it takes more than one punch to knock cattle witness. this is a witness that the jury had believed but watching the jury at the time, i did not think it was a knockout blow. here's the thing if i'm a juror and again, it's impossible possible to reduce jurors, but if i'm a juror and i've heard and i've been warned that michael cohen lies. the prosecutors have said this. they've set it up. i'm prepared for that. i'm prepared for he's lied in the past repeatedly i don't know if a juror is prepared for he lied to this jury two days ago, but now he's really telling the truth. i mean, i don't know. does that does a juror make a difference between oh, yeah. those years old lives, but he's really now telling the truth. >> jurors understand any clean this up in the hydrogen he was

stronger after lunch. memory is not perfect. okay. people do not have perfect recollection. okay. but you're gonna get read for almost witnesses except for the better britt so let me just show you what's really hard or just started. you. one other thing because i'd before it's going to leave my mind, which is if this phone call if his testimony previously was it was so urgent that i talked to trump because i got to check in with the boss on everything i do and i'm going forward with the stormy daniels the payment and he's got to approve it. so i'm calling him now. it's gonna be a quick phone call. i called keith schiller because i want to talk to the boss. if that was so urgent in his mind, why is he obsessing about a 14-year-old boy who was allegedly prank calling him and contacting keith schiller saying, i got to talk to you about this weird phone number number that shows up. it's not i got to talk to the boss or something really urgent and

calling keith schiller and talking the boss. and then after that conversation is over, she'll say new chiller. oh, by the way, there's this phone number is not it's it seems like the the the 14 year-old boy is the reason he's calling what they're asked. >> i mean, you just faced typically made the defense's case for that. memories are not perfect. that is exactly what they're saying to michael cohen that your memory is not perfect and you don't remember exactly that you even spoke to donald trump on this phone goal. i mean, his most devastating leinz after the text of the 14-year-old was, i believe i spoke with mr. trump. he didn't even double down on it after he was pressed on it. and so that is exactly there are entire case here that they've been saying michael cohen, how can you not remember this? but then you remember this phone call with donald trump. >> the best part of cross examination was todd blanche's follow-up, which was the jury is not interested in what you believe she got objective. it doesn't matter it does. >> that's the kind of comment that you make. you don't care whether that objection sustained. you're communicating to the journey said that right? looking at the jurors whether absolutely

absolutely. >> i as caitlin, sad luck, i think the issue with michael cohen is that particularly when you have animus toward another person which they have demonstrated pretty clearly it is also plausible for the jury to believe that you're memory is colored by your desire to see donald trump behind bars. and that's why this moment i think is so devastating because he is so crystal clear on everything that is bad for donald trump's case. but on everything from the mundane to other things that apparently at the time he was really worked up about. he cannot remember it. and that is both a problem from the cases perspective, but i just think in general from michael cohen, this is the issue with him, is that you cannot always be sure yes, he's been telling the story for six years, but in those six years, he's been trying to get donald trump convicted of crimes also today in the guardian today because i had not i must admit i have not listened to michael cohen's podcasts. may of culpa but it

was shocking, but it was play a moment of it was playing in the courtroom today and it was so fascinating because, you know, michael cohen's testimony has been very even keeled and demean very rational, very yes, ma'am. no, sir. all this and suddenly they played this thing and there's a guy's screaming in the room, like using no, it's just know my nose i was somebody who does a podcast i was like, is this has actual normal speaking voice and a podcast because it's literally yelling. >> and it's clearly written down because he's speaking in a way that's not so he's written down these yells, like it's gotta be all in caps. i mean, it was shocking. i was like between between that just the volume of him and impaired with his very demeanor, that was i also was like, whoa, i mean, it fills the corner. i don't know if somebody turned up the volume attune wow, i was like dubay is this

intentionally too loud? i'm told we have a clip of the picas. let's play it and play it loud because it was quite loud in the courtroom. i got to tell you that's your volume i truly hope that this man ends up in prison it will bring back the year that i lost or the damage done to my family. but revenge is a dish best served cold, and you better believe i want this man to go down and rot and for what he did to me and my family. >> so that's what was played in court. >> a little biased. i don't know but i think a fundamental question about michael cohen as a witness, which is is the jury going to listen to him and the cross and the history of lying and say the hell with this guy. i mean, just write him off or are they going to say, look, he's had this traumatic experience. he went to prison because he thought he was helping donald trump. let's parse each statement and see whether those statements are corroborated. and this is

really i think the prosecution's great hope, and this is why they examined him the way they did on direct which was scaffolding his testimony with test messages phone records. now, the big problem of width today is those text messages came back to bite him, at least in this one exchange. but it is also worth mentioning that he had years of contact with donald trump. it's not intubate that whether he could whether he was in touch with him, if he's mistaken about this one phone call, one prosecution responses. so what? no, no, no, it was in touch for ten years, but it's not just this one phone call, one. you also have to remember there are two attorneys on this jury who are listening to michael cohen admit that he agrees it's unethical for an attorney to record their client. they're listening to that. todd blanche is trying to catch him. in other inconsistencies. he seems like he's about to catch him in another lie on monday. this is something i'm watching because he asked him about recording conversations with reporters, which michael cohen said he did pretty often, but

he said he stopped after the 2016 campaign and then todd blanche pressed him on that. he said, i would we'd have to check and todd blanche responded with this knowing tone. will we'll check together in a minute, so it seems like he's just kept catching. maybe it doesn't change the actual documents, but it could really undermine the credibility kaitlan. >> this is a controversial view, but attorneys are also human beings they understand that sometimes people do stupid things. sometimes people say when things, when they're angry and they hold grudges that doesn't mean every word they say is a lie and that's the challenge for the prosecutors to say, look, we know he lied and they brought out a lot of that on direct. unfortunately, for them not everything. i mean, they certainly should have brought out this whole thing about the 14 year-old, but this wasn't a total surprise to the jury. i suspect obviously, i don't that's why this case from day one, starting with david pecker and the august 2015 meeting in trump tower where you have

pecker agreeing that there is going to be this activity, this catch and kill activity to benefit the campaign and going all throughout the testimony with those corroborating notes in allen weisselberg's hand. this is one tile in a mosaic. and even today, cohen was much stronger in the afternoon and the jury does not necessarily fixate on that one moment. well, there's also three because all during the i mean, for until the exciting in break before the lunch break, i kept sitting there wondering, well, all todd blanche is talking about is just lies by michael cohen about things in general role, not anything to do with a document that was signed about stormy daniels or anything to do with stormy downs or anything to do with hush money payments. >> and to me it felt very meandering and, you i was like, okay, yeah, we know the guy has lied a lot and that's exactly

except for one thing that's another blockbuster area of this testimony, which i think is extraordinary, doesn't seem to be something many people have picked up on and that is the following it is an extraordinary thing in my experience for a cooperating witness to take the stand and admit under oath at our trial that they pleaded guilty to something that they didn't commit. >> in other words, per during themselves at the time of the plea allocution. >> now, i know there's all kinds of stuff here about replaying the how many times can he be untruthful and how many times is the untruthful under oath? >> but i have to tell you. i mean, at least as i learned, being a prosecutor, if you have a cooperating witness that can't tell the truth that a plea allocution that means that that witness is basically worthless he testified he lied to the judge wright in this prior and his plea was voluntary. >> and then when he was todd blanche asked him, well what do

you think the judge would have thought of? you wouldn't don't you think the judge would like to have known you were lying? i mean, don't you think that would have impacted his decision and it would have and michael cohen was like, i don't know. >> he said the judge was in on it. get us attorney's was in on it. i mean, that's what i'm pretty and the top lunches for cross-examination. so basically, whenever you get into a problem, it's always blame somebody else, blame president trump, blame the judge, blamed the justice department, blame the us attorney's office for the southern district of new york. blame congress. >> i mean, how many places do you have to go where this guy has? >> byd many times under oath and it's always somebody else's fault. it's not his fault. >> i mean, i got to tell you in summation that's pretty powerful evidence to a jury to say you shouldn't believe anything. >> this guy says. and if you have to rely on his testimony in any fashion whatsoever in order to convict donald trump. i an order to fix donald trump's intent. you have a reasonable doubt. you can't have anything else, but a reasonable doubt. >> and yet in that moment, when

blanche tried to push him and said so you're not accepting responsibility. he said, i do accept responsibility. he stood up to max, but he doesn't accept responsibility norm for the most important thing which is he saying that but he didn't plead guilty to a crime. and coincides 22nd say that he accepts responsibility. >> he was the meaning is actual thoughts. don't seem to accept responsibility, but the phrase he uses, the phrase i accept full responsibility constant and there can't be any daylight there because if there is daylight that is a huge problem for the problems that she had to get a break and we're going to have a lot more kara scannell. thank you so much as always, everyone else is going to stay here. silver com we just received the image, the defense used of that in texts cohen sent to schiller about the crank color will show you that plus john berman is going through today's transcripts

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actually to keith schiller about a crank call or a series of crank calls. this the key moment quoting cohen's taxed, who can i speak to regarding harassing calls to my cell in office, the dope forgot to block his call on one of them called was both these calls for allegedly by 14 year-old after that, keith schiller texts michael cohen saying call me and shortly after minute, seconds later, there's a call from from michael cohen to keith schiller which he had previously testified was a call to get to trump to tell them important news that he was moving ahead on the payments. stormy daniels, any claim that trump had to agree, we're joined now by john berman, who has more on this its moment, although the full text of this cross-examination that so that was so momentous is not out. we have almost all of today's transcript except this part as you can imagine, which is very frustrated, but answering, you did a great job explaining it based on what you and others have reported from inside the courtroom? look, he todd blanche, one after michael cohen on this, michael cohen

basically said, i know that keith was with mr. trump at the time and there was more potentially than this. >> in other words, more potentially than me just talking to keith about the kid, maybe i talked to him about something else. then he said, i always ran everything by the boss immediately. and in this case, it would have been saying everything has been taken care of. it's been resolved in any ultimately had too many goals based on what was going on, based on the text messages and so on, based on the other text messages about stormy daniels matter, that is how we came to the conclusion that he talked to trump about stormy daniels on this phone call. it was all the other things. blanche challenged cohen to confirm that his trial testimony was based on materials prosecutors showed him in preparation for quick questioning. >> this was an important moment because then blanche has saying, well, wait a minute so you're only testifying to this phone call because prosecutors showed you a call log that had this phone call and you're claiming that that basically jarred your memory. this is the

setup of this crucial phone set up to the cross-examination to follow. >> he said, yes that refreshed my recollection. >> well, we do it just didn't refresh his recollection of the 14-year-olds color. can i ask a question? >> what what is the ultimate significance of let's assume he just lied about all this. >> but does this mean that donald trump didn't know that he was, he was reversing know, but it's what what is claiming. this was one of the examples. this was a key moment when he directly told donald trump i'm going ahead with these payments and trump approved it and he trope kept but we have abundant proof including trump's own words in a tweet, in a, in a yeah, i'm financial disclosure form from the white house where he says, i reimbursed michael cohen four. >> so why is that you have additional communications the

next day with cohen davidson, howard, and pecker, and then you have to direct call on the 26th at 8:26 a.m. and 8:34 a.m. and that was when he was wrong and that was when he was making the transfer actually have the transcript of that call two days later where colvin is asked, did you call mr. trump before you went upset? set up the account to make the transfer. he goes, yes. what in substance that you discuss with them on these two calls? cohen said in direct, i wanted to ensure once again, he approved of what i was doing because i required approval from him on all of this, by the way, i should also point out earlier that morning, i guess before that, he texted the keith schiller back, pursue the family of the 14-year-old phone call or he would seems very obsessed on welcome, saying, please don't do this. i'm 14 years literally since when morning that moment happened and then they went to break, which is a great moment for the defense to end on, obviously, then they come back in the room and todd blanche greeted michael cohen when he was at the witness stand. >> his boys is voice was barely audible he he said good

afternoon, mr. cohen and michael cohen responded. mr. blanche, but you could barely hear it in the courtroom and obviously he's speaking into a microphone. and then the text did not been redacted when you were still in the courtrooms? i don't believe they showed them on the screen. they redacted the what they needed to during the lunch break. so then they put them up on the screen and made michael cohen read what he was texting this 14-year-old that when the kids said he was 14, allegedly, the michael cohen responded, well, you need to tell your parent or guardian that the secret service is now responsible for handling this, and it just kinda is this moment where the jury doesn't often show a lot and they clearly were experiencing the same had the same look that you had when you came and for obvious reasons, let's not forget, this is from 2016. were in 2024. >> this is eight years ago. >> now refreshing somebody's recollection with a text message we'll do you really remember that this is what happened? i mean, that's the whole point of the

cross-examination. >> you basically testify here because the prosecution showed you a bunch of documents and stuff in your in your telling us what you remember that if you hadn't been shown those documents, you wouldn't be able to tie him anything. >> norms point that it wasn't just this one phone call. it was a whole series of phone calls right around this time at exactly the time he is he is transferring the money. is that all made up two and no and the testimony that cohen put in in his direct about this call was very general testimony. he was not purporting to remember exactly what was said back and forth. i think i understand the the mental excitement of that moment of confrontation, but i think in the larger scheme of things, this gigantic mosaic that corroborate greats michael cohen, the lack of any other explanation for what trump was doing the later corroborating statement, the long series of

witnesses, the many documents i don't believe the jury is going to seize on it if you add 1234 knockout punches, yes. you would allayed cohen flat this was just wondering, it comes out with my here's my thing about where about this statement and also just about michael cohen in general there's abundant evidence to donald trump knew about the hush money payments, but that is not the issue here. the issue is the falsification of business records and from my understanding of the evidence, there's really one key moment where michael cohen basically makes the case that donald trump understood that it was going to be fraudulently put on the books as legal fees, and that was a meeting that he had with allen weisselberg and donald trump. there are only three people who know what goes on there. one of them is the defendant. the other one is not going to testify, and the other one is michael cohen. and so if i'm a lawyer, unless you believe michael cohen with regard to that that evidence and the defense is going to

make the argument and summation his testimony is worthless, and these are the examples, and he's trying to gild the lily and he, he's testifying and making it up unless you can believe beyond a reasonable doubt that that conversation happened and there's proof that it happened the way that in the way he said, right half because it's only that way which would prove donald trump's intent. there's no way that a jury should convict on that evidence unanimously, beyond a reasonable doubt. that's going to be and that is why the doubt that is put on the table by michael cohen's recollection of a conversation that he describes as being pivotal is look, i mean, the bar is so low for the defense to just say to convince one juror that there is not enough evidence. >> i'm not saying that the preponderance of evidence is the donald trump knew what was going on and that there is a common sense view that one could have, that he understood that this was not going to be put on the books correctly. but in this court, it takes much

less than that to get a juror to say, i don't know if i can believe this guy about this one really critical conversation that has to do with how the records how the payments were structured so that the records could be falsified. that's the main problem i think right now for the prosecution will have more transcripts later. john berman. thanks so much coming up, jury may view a potential witness for the defense who testified before congress yesterday, disputing michael cohen own sworn testimony in the hush money trial that's bringing into savings this moving season with todd save up to 25% now i'm moving in storage in phi ipods. it's been trusted weil wir 6 million moves, but don't wait, save up to 25%. now, visit pot.com today new assignments in my bag like a bunch of groceries. >> alice qizan greens, just contemplate freedom. >> you can't take your eyes

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with custom gear, get started today at accustoming.com, stanley cup playoffs presented by geico around ten. again, six double this is going to be fine, isn't it? panthers bruins, stars, avalanche covers begins tomorrow with six 30 on tnt as we've been discussing michael cohen's credibility came under attack. >> today is trump defense attorney todd blanche grilled him over key text messages and phone call october 2016, while the prosecution would like to present, cohen is a reformed liar. their new questions or the race today about some of the testimony he gave in this trial earlier this week? there's also includes cohen's testimony on tuesday when he claimed that he was given advice by attorney robert costello in 2018, and that costello was using his connections to rudy giuliani. and by extension, former

president trump to pressure cohen not to flip on wednesday, castello appeared before the house subcommittee on the so-called weaponization of the federal government to dispute that the story he told yesterday was that rudy giuliani and i wish somehow conspiring to try and keep him quiet to try and keep them from flipping. >> that's the term we use in the trade for cooperating that's ridiculous. i asked for a meeting with a district attorney bragg because i wanted to go in there, let him look me in the eye and let me explain all of the stuff that we had on michael cohen that showed that he's an inveterate liar. >> let's amazing. this guy. he was representing him and he's calling his client an inveterate liar. don't once he actually can technically representing him pretty that's what i that's certainly not castello emails or the like by the way the defense may may call him now. >> yes. although i mean, it's weird that they had this

testimony to get this testimony. >> apparently, the privilege was waived. i don't know exactly how that happened. that's what i would be pretty unusual to call a witness to impeach a another witness. on cross-examination will see if the judge allows it, but castello, if he comes his emails to cohen are the most extraordinary. it's like a cookbook for witness tampering so proud man, by the way, i forgot to introduce for not just the vil in trials are forgotten hello, run, i apologize, we're not to you. >> what did you think of today? >> look, i mean, he got up, michael cohen got absolutely hammered today. >> but he's a liar, is not a theory of defense. >> we still don't know what, what is the theory of defense you know, they they opened as

i've said, that these were legitimate legal fees. there's no evidence of that. michael cohen is sticking to the story that i did no legal work them. so hammering michael cohen and saying he's a liar, dopa, i think the jury thinks he is a liar. maybe they have questions about some of these phone calls, but there's other corroborating evidence and i still don't understand what the theory is, and we all know you have to have a theory of defense. if you you want to win a criminal case. well, that was jeffrey your argument all along which is okay. >> the prosecution has put forth a set of facts, believed them are not what is the defense argument exactly? >> there are certain undisputed facts in this case. the two most important of which are michael cohen paid stormy daniels $130,000. no one is going to dispute that. the other undisputed fact is that donald trump paid michael cohen $420,000. >> is there any explanation in front of the jury other than this was a reimbursement for what?

>> for what he paid out. now, that means that the documents are false. that means that the corporate documents or false, the issue in the case is did donald trump no. or cause those documents to be false? that to me is the only disputed issue in this case because the rest of it is just proved and deborah, you to the the other point of that that was raised today, it will be fascinating to see how the prosecution handles this. is todd blanche grilled michael cohen on what he testified recently was that in 2017, 2018, he was barely doing any legal work for the trump family, but he he never had a retainer well, todd blanche went back and said ever since you worked at the trump organization when he left his law firm the day he met trump and went to try to get a job there. he never had a retainer michael cohen said that was correct. and top let's just trying to make the point where you've never had a retainer, so it's not unusual that you didn't have one in 2017 and 2018, but then the question that i had sitting in they're in the courtroom was when michael cohen sent those invoices to allen weisselberg. they were paid pursuant to a

legal retainer. it's set it on every check we looked at all 11 of them. and so the question i would have for the defense there is okay. well, then why was he being paid pursuant to a retainer if he's never had a refund because there was no retainer, it's a lie singer that wasn't the issue. >> the issue is whether there's a written retainer agreement, not whether or not there's has been retained. >> no. he said he's never had a retainer period i was there, todd blanche drill down? yes but what he means by that is there was no written retainer agreement, but he didn't let wasn't by trump hater. >> it should it's kind of a side show. it's not like that big a deal really in the legal field, whether or not you have returner gag, you should have. but what legal i think the defense painted themselves into a corner. what did he do and what did donald trump? think that he was writing those $35,000 checks for what did he think he was paying for? and we don't have any answer to that do you think it was effective

for todd blanche to push the cross-examination all the way to the end of the day so that tomorrow there's no cord and norm, you brought this up in the later during the lunch break, you were like, he's going to push it all the ways that they spend three days ruminating on the lives of michael cohen look, you can look at it both ways in some ways, i think i would have gotten him off the stand and ended with him and just been done with him. then you get some distance. and then if you're going to put on a defense case, maybe they're going to call it well, an expert, they say, i don't know, some election expert. then you start fresh on monday because the prosecution would have had to get up today and do their redirect. it's a little tougher to do it when you don't have three days to prepare because shore the defense's reviewing the transcript, but guess so else's the prosecution and they're going to figure out all the things things they need to fix on monday. so what would have been maybe a 45-minute redirect might be an hour-and-a-half redirect on monday. now that you gave them those three?

>> yeah, maybe but i don't if the prosecution had done redirect today, they wouldn't have finished. can i was still have gone over to next and caitlin is very interesting, retained in her point. this is one of the most obscure areas of law. the reason which makes your eyes spoke does about elevator yell at me early your eyes retain her letters the reason he didn't need a retainer was because he was employed by the trump organization. >> he was in-house. in-house lawyers don't need a retainer letter when you leave under new york rules, you are supposed to have a written retainer. so it is proof that he was not actually doing legal work, that he didn't have a written retainer letters. i'm that's why hoffinger close that was one of her last points in the closing, you're saying that when he was working for trump at the time, he didn't need one. >> he didn't because he didn't

have was yeah, he was in-house trump. or at trump war. so how one of the many todd blanche lines of questioning that fell flat today, there were times when the jury was bored. >> there was a lot of questions too about what michael cohen wanted after the election, know what position he wanted in the white house. there was a lot of testimony about that which i thought i didn't see it going away or did you did you i mean, it was interminable and it led no place. >> i mean, michael michael cohen kept saying i wanted to be personal attorney to donald j. trump, which align he repeated. >> i like i like your impression. >> i lost interest in and-a-half and they were claiming know, you want to be special counsel and that was afraid of his daughter had used i mean, it just seemed i think it would also be a mistake for the defense to try to weirdly convinced the jury that this wasn't about the election. i mean, that is also one of the things that i think is kind of settled like we know look big,

say they're gonna call this election expert. >> i think the judge is going to allow them to call. i think it's brilliantly smith and his order, he said that they can call him to say this is how the federal election commission works. these are some of the definitions, but there's one definition that i think you need to watch out for. and what is a personal expense versus a business expense? and the election law says, and it's 50 to usc 30114. and it says it's a personal expense. if you would have made it irrespective of your campaign and the argument that they've been trying to weave in the defense is that he would have made this payment to stormy daniels to protect his family, to protect melania. so i think they're going to try and argue he would have made this payment irrespective of the campaign therefore, it is not a campaign finance violation. and that's by the way, the federal election commission would have agreed know whether there'll be able to get that didn't sound unlikely. but if you had gone to the federal election commission and truthfully

disclose, we want to make this payment to stormy daniel's. we we want her to go away. we think that it may have some effects on the outcome of the election. will you approve this as a campaign expenditure, the fec would have looked at them like, what are you out of your mind? so it can't both be what what the prosecution is. it can't both be. wait a second. this is a concealed campaign expenditure. if if the people who make those fine judgments are like wait a note of course it's a personal expense. i mean, the john edwards cases essentially a proof of that the john edwards case and it creates an an interesting legal issue. >> and i think that's one reason why you strategize to have those two lawyers on there because they're gonna be like getting this. >> do you think that anything today's proceedings change? what do you think the jury is thinking about this case and also todd blanche got very heated on this. i mean, he called them a liar. he grabbed the microphone like closely they like someone like drunk at a party, might grab a mic and his voice was loud in the room.

he one point said to the jurors, like they don't want to hear whatever. is that effective. i mean, it was it was a tension. >> michael cohen, it's, you know, you got to pick your witnesses. you can't you can't just be able in a china shop with everybody. but i think with michael oh, and i think it was totally fine. i was a wedding singer moment it was written out of his to veal. >> thank you so much really fascinating. natalie, did trump's lawyer, todd blanche, raised his voice as i just said, at times, he also raised his hand was some dramatic flair to put a visual on the point. my next just guess captured some of that, those intense moments we'll talk to one of the great courtroom artists ahead we're trying to save the planet with nuggets because we need the planet and we also need nuggets impossible. >> we're setting the meat problem with more meat you.

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taking for sica and call your doctor right away of the eps symptoms of disinfection and allergic reaction or ketoacidosis welcome to the waiver hood with wave. finding your style is fine let stops, grabbing it, doesn't matter if you're outdoors i'm sorry carl, this is me and chair form i don't see you come for you you love it. >> i told you we should have done opinion nauta i explained, it, how many died they're not sending. you need to sit down. >> please every style, every home i'm even mackenzie in washington and this is cnn in searing cross-examination of michael cohen tay, don trump's lawyer, todd blanche, grilled cohen on all the times he previously gone under oath, raised his right hand and then lied. this was one of those combative moments captured by the ultra talented veteran courtroom a sketch artist, jane

rosenburg. and we're very glad that she is back with us tonight. >> you've got to be exhausted. i appreciate you coming in to talk about the day to many people in the courtroom, this was an exciting de with the cross-examination. toward the end of it, you capture this moment of todd blanche raising his hand and that was in his cross-examination of michael cohen and he was repeatedly saying you've sworn in a courtroom, you've raised your right hand do when you saw that had you already started the sketch or do you suddenly have to? shift and start a whole new sketch of todd blanche raising his arms, didn't know this was going to be the moment. >> i did not know it'd be the moment and i did start another one with him leaning over the podium like this. he does a lot then he raised his hand. i had to switch that so can you just erase an organ it so many times he raised his hand you sworn to tell the truth then what did it mean? and in fact, a certain point the judge seemed to sort of be like, okay, we got it. let's move it along.

>> but did you have to like erase the arm or distorted wholeness, get know. >> i braced the arm. i mean, doesn't always work, but that's what i did this time because i had so much else already in there. i felt oh, i think i can just put that arm up. it's there now pull it out. >> you've heard a lot of cross-examinations. did you think? i'm did this one register to you in any particular way no, i don't you didn't think it was as excited? i like i haven't seen many, so i thought the end was incredibly ross is often exciting and it should be lawyers get really excited when they're going to cross somebody. i think that's why they call it the crucible full of cross-examination blanche is not really well-practiced in, in a cross-examination. >> i mean, he i think he would even acknowledged that. and so today was really a big test for him and for him to have, you know, this disbelieving tone in his voice is michael cohen is answering his questions, raising his hands, raising his voice kinda this high pitched

voice at times to say, no one can believe what you're saying almost like ticket times, like are you kidding me? >> yeah. >> are you finished now, please don't give a speech. i understand your characterizatio n, but we just read it. nothing on that letter is not the truth. and i'll just say one moment that i noticed today was after a break, they were walking back in the room. normally trump strides in by himself if he's at the front of the room, you can comes in alone and then everyone trails and bind him. he and todd blanche are walking side-by-side, kinda talking to one another. you never really see trump like that with his attorney walking into the room? >> no, you're right. he's always behind them. todd blanche, i will say that in some of those more shrill todd blanche moments, including the two at the end where he confronted cohen and there was an objection and the objection was sustained. >> those were moments the jury paid. i thought hard to discern attention. they were very attentive. you couldn't read them. they were visibly annoyed with blanche. i saw eye rolling

a real looking away. it was too much and it detracted. it shows his lack of experience because it actually detracted from the point he was making, he would have been better to let the revelation that he had elicited from cohen breathe rather than being objected to and so so loud and unpleasant added it looked to me like the jury was not liking todd blanche very much in those moments while editorializing while you're cross-examining a witness is usually a bad idea. i mean, that's not what you're there to do. >> your bad from a legal standpoint or just from a product jury impact from a tactical jury impacts zero point. the jury's not interested in your editorializing. they want to try to get to the facts just like every jury wants to get to the facts. but that moment with the hand raised or i'm i'm sure

that you dated your work and probably noted the time to write someday that will probably appear on todd blanche's office wall for i'm sure phi but there you go i love critiquing lawyers as much as the next person, but every time i've talked to you, jurors almost always what you hear from them is, oh, the lawyers were fine, but the evidence was x and they they don't parse that performance of the attorneys as much as we do. and i think this is one of the great things about the jury system is that i think the evidence actually matters a lot more than the performance of the lawyer for the person who does parse the lawyers is definitely trump. and i mean, if our friend arthur adalja was here, he would say trump at his other attorney, susan necheles, has way more experience in doing across then todd blanche, but once that moment happened, i was like, okay, that's why

todd blanche's doing this cross-examination. >> he trump is a very you know, he likes to archetype people and just sort of put them in their categories i can imagine this is speculation, but i can only imagine him thinking, wanting to have somebody with the physicality of todd blanche, who is actually a very kind of broad shouldered type of person to be able to do that kind of aggressive in your face, challenging of michael cohen that susan necheles is a incredible professional, but she's that's not how she conducts herself in her doing her job and stylistically, it's a choice whether it will matter to the jury. >> i don't know, but it probably matters. >> i think that's a high theater moment. >> and although jeffries correct to point out that it's still ultimately about facts but high theater moments, people are human facts are not everything. people when it comes to jury deliberations, in my experience, those are emotional moments in addition to fact gathering moments and

theater trials are theater after all, the theater matters, it matters lawyers. without theater and you can go to sleep that's not a problem with jan thing thank you so much. love we return with michael cohen's former attorney and current legal advisor, lending davis has taken whether his client dug a hole for himself or did well for himself and also the let's take on the prosecution today, going to the final stages of this trial, we'll be right back muniz allergies don't have to be scary. it's right. blown a sent to miss daily for non drowsy, long-lasting relief in a scent free gentleness flown, it's all good. >> also try are allergy, headache and nighttime pills. >> work are bono, the company who invented car vending machines and buying a car 100% online now we've created a brand new way for you to sell your car whether it's a year-old or a few years old, we want to buy your car. so go to

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