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made affordable it is just past 9:00 p.m. here in new york today, the defense in the form of presence, hush money, trial exploded the tightly crafted narrative of the prosecution and scored hit against a key witness whose credibility has been issued from the start michael cohen were a lot of us were sitting in the courtroom along with a room full of people were watching the cross-examination very closely. >> it turned into a methodical dissection of cohen by defense attorney todd blanche. blanche presented text messages between cohen and in trump's bodyguard, keith schiller from october 24,

2016. now on monday, cone to characterize these exchanges with schiller as a way to just to get to then candidate trump, toto get trump on the phone and get final approval for the stormy daniels payments instead, the texts do not speak of that. rather, they show that cohen wanted schiller's help with a 14-year-old crank color who had apparently been antagonizing cohen for days are short time ago, cohen's texts with the 14-year-old were shown that were shown in court were released cohen text. this number has just been sent to secret service for your ongoing continuous harassment to both my cell as well as to the organizations may in line the person then responds, it wasn't me. my friend told me to call. i'm sorry for this. i won't do it again. cohen then replies, you will need to explain this to secret service as we have been receiving dozens of these harassing calls over the past three days. if you are a minor, i suggest you notify your parent or guardian. the person responds in all caps. i didn't do it. and then texts. i'm 14 so bizarre

sorry. >> we're joining former federal former federal prosecutor elie honig and michael cohen's former attorney in current legal advisor, lanny davis. >> so were you were you surprised the defense appeared effective and undermining cohen's credibility about that phone call with keith schiller. i mean, when he testified earlier in the week that call was portrayed as it was a call to keith schiller to get to trump. there was no mention of this 14-year-old and wanting to talk to keith schiller to trace the number and figure out some way to get back at this person. >> so no, i wasn't surprised and i don't think that is going to be persuaded by those kinds of mistakes are making michael cohen, the accused, and everybody having fun calling him a liar on television this case is about, as i first was introduced to it by the prosecutor's by first-day. this case is about documents,

testimony, and corroboration michael cohen is a confirming witness. donald trump loves to change the subject and his lawyers love to change the subject. they want michael cohen to be the one who's indicted and accused so let me just remind you what we've seen in evidence so far. i'm not going to speculate or downgraded juries focus on facts. i don't disparage juries, but i'm also not a trial lawyer, so maybe travelers who do disparage jury juries are correct, but i think that you have to remember the first element of this crime with corrupt graded, you don't need michael cohen. yeah. david pecker. you had hope hicks everybody knew that the money being paid to stormy daniels was for the campaign. it wasn't to protect him from being embarrassed in front of his wife. that's what the testimony has been so far. and the second most important part of the climb did donald trump ally when he said there were legal fees? well, there is a hot document, meaning a document that's very powerful.

and the handwriting verified to be allen weisselberg in which he asked three categories of money that michael spent on behalf of donald trump. one was $130,000 written down in his handwriting times two. and the three categories to edit up to $420,000 divided by let me just sorry. >> michael cohen is clearly important to the prosecution. i mean, he's a critical witness for the prosecution in order. i mean, he's really the only one who can speak to whether donald trump was aware of how this stuff was going to be build the full nature of this scheme. he's the one who gives that testimony, which is why they're devoting so much time and taking the risk of putting him on the stand i know it doesn't go well for michael cohen if he's shown to be lying. i mean, you're not doesn't it seem like today at the very least in the end of this

morning session, he seemed to be caught in the very least, a mistake in memory about this phone call that he had just testified, not some old lie, but this testimony from in front of this jury isn't that a big deal? i can't predict. >> i don't think juries will find it a big deal compared to the corroborating evidence of allen weisselberg's document that proves that if i was going to say use four 20 divided by 12 equals $35,000. those are the checks that a sitting president each month wrote to michael cohen. it's the man that's stupid. i was going to do a joke before anderson about james carville is the economy stupid? it's the mat that allen weisselberg, that document proves these could not have been legal fees. he divided four 20 by 12. he came up with $35,000 and the sitting president in the oval office wrote michael cohen, $35,000 check on his personal bank account and paid him $35,000. those weren't legal fees if

they're not legal fees, they were reimbursements that makes it a crime. so those are the documents that's the testimony of third parties, including kopecks. very favorable to mr. trump. and so whether michael cohen made mistakes or shouted out by a lawyer or whatever happens at his entertaining or a gotcha moment, which i can definitely understand anderson, the documents speak for themselves testimony speaks for themselves, and we know that the jury will ultimately here are the prosecution, some the case focus on the weisselberg argument they never say i'm sorry, go ahead, caitlin lanny, it's kaitlan. >> that answer that you just gave to anderson. there was a look a little over a minute, close to 90 seconds. >> that is how long the phone call was with keith schiller that night. >> and what michael cohen argued today is that he simultaneous easley talked about the okay for the hush money deal and these prank calls that he was getting from a 14-year-old, i mean, is the jury really going to find that credible that in 96 seconds

they had both of those conversations i think it could be that the jury will hold that against michael cohen is not being truthful, but it's not going to change where i said this case is about documents that speak for themselves. >> the weisselberg document, it's more powerful for the jury to look at to prove that donald trump lied. who's by the way the one who's indicted, not michael cohn whether michael us about holding lanny, that's right. >> but you also mentioned here the night that michael cohen spent over 100 hours with prosecutors, not just this office when this district attorney, but in general, in the new york and new york did these prank calls ever come up in those conversations that this is what he was worried about that night? >> so you know i'm a lawyer behind closed doors with prosecutors. i wasn't with the federal prosecutors these prosecutors. i can't answer that question. let me just say that the story that keith schiller is saying now, let's see if he testifies and then we'll see who's believable.

and that's up to the jury. but i also am affecting donald trump to testify because he said i would testify. he's never taken it back. so maybe we'll get a chance to see what donald trump says. he's not exactly known for truthfulness, but no, michael is definitely suffered these things and arrows when he came to me, he was known to be a liar for donald trump i don't want to go on another 90 seconds, katelyn, sorry but you're allowed to go 90 seconds. >> i do. different to have it as a question as well. >> but did you think they should want to call them? >> i mean, it sounds like what you're saying, lanny, is that all this evidence was already in do you really think they shouldn't call michael cohen as a witness i think they had to because he's a corroborating witness to testimony, documents, emails, text messages, the timeline. so he is the narrator confirming what is already in evidence. now, they attack the narrator. they changed the top but can they make it about? the narrator confirming? and of

course, the drama of the case is made by michael cohen. and when a lawyer shouts at him, you lie. i wanted to see if he puts up a witness and we'll see who's telling the truth. but of course, he had to testify jeffrey, but all he's doing is confirming the testimony of others and documents don't lie. >> he has a question. i'm sorry. i don't have a question. i have something to say. oh, la michael cohen got blown apart today. let's be real clear about that. and what was different about this than all his other lives that he's told over the years, all his things he pled guilty to his leinz, the congress is this goes to the heart of his testimony prosecutors by the way. whatever happened to the burden of proof, where are these defense lawyers saying who's got a better story? it's not who's got a better story that prosecutors have to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt if the jury decides michael cohen lied, they have every right to reject his testimony. >> this case is over. there's only two possibilities for what happened today. michael cohen lied about this meeting, which seems to be a conclusion that a lot of people were in the courtroom or draw or drawing, or he made a massive mistake.

but you know it when you're a prosecutor and you're putting your star witness on, you don't get a whip. see, you don't get oops, we messed up. they prepared michael cohen to an inch of his life. lanny davis had 100 plus hours. they went through everything with him. they saw that phone call well, 8:02 p.m. michael concert. yeah, that's oh, yeah. yeah corroboration to reflect on corroboration cooperation. >> they miss those texts. prosecutor screwed up because if they had seen those texts, lex poorly on the prosecution, it's not this is not just about how a jury feels about michael cohen. this is a very sad thing for the prosecution and ultimately what you're going to hear in summation is all this nonsense about witnesses and so forth. you know, if if the jury doesn't believe that the prosecution was well founded and starts to hate the government's case and this is an area where the prosecution, you know, overlooked something major and missed the boat or sponsored something without taking him through this and try to turn this conversation into more

than it really was, which is to say something other than it really was that's not just a problem for the witness. that's a problem for the process that is true. >> but ellie, i was there, michael cohen did not get blown apart. >> they landed one distinct minority. >> i taught i lot of people and i was there alone. i would feel the same way they landed one punch on his shirt that is not enough in a cross-examination like this, you've got to land multiple punches. this is a witness now let me speak unless your job is a witness who had bonded with this jury, it is a witness who has been corroborated by more than 18 days of trial testimony by other witnesses. many hostile to cohen, positive for trump. there's a larger mosaic of evidence now, i've gotten on for 90 seconds how much? to make that point to you see how much you can pack into 90 seconds. there's room to talk

about a 14-year-old prank caller the hush money payment this was enough. >> norman let's say possible by certainly not enough, but but ellie's point is, whatever happened to beyond a reasonable doubt and the presumption of entity that government from this simple cases so the one sequence is not enough to create reasonable doubt across the entire case. >> it was one time that blanche tagged him. did he tag him? yes. was it a punch on the chin? yes. did he knocked michael cohen out no. cohen stood his ground. he said in there, will you say you lied? i did not lie. and cohen was much stronger in the afternoon the prosecution was a head-on points. it's a closer case now, they needed a knockout punch. they what would a knockout punch be, if not that, tell me what would be your series of lies. and it would be shall make you need to checking. michael cohen would be getting him two retrench. he didn't back off his point,

your norm, no one's listening would you, norm eisen send a man to prison, take away his liberty based on the testimony of michael cohen this is not bow yes or no. >> unlike unlike the witnesses on the stand, i don't have to accept that your yes or no insistence. are they going to this is not about this testimony is why we have juries loan. >> they get to decide vast amount of operation for michael cohen. >> one bad answer is not going to sync this case and let me let me agree with the sec. i'm going to agree with norm for a second. >> it's a way past 90 seconds. >> there is substantial corroborate four parts of this transaction, but ultimately, let me ask you this. i actually don't know. i'm interested in your answer. if the jury decides gets back in that deliberation room, says, we're not going to credit michael cohen, eliminate him, pull him out of the case is there enough left to convict know? >> okay. so there's the problem i want to go back to lenny. lenny, you're at a disadvantage because you're on remote, so it's hard with

this. so i know your polyatomic again. i want to give you the seconds and then we got to first of all totally shocked at elie honig makes declarative statements of guilt. >> it's just shocking but no surprise there. thank you, ellie, what kind of normal him. thank you's this thank you thank you norman, for reminding everybody that michael has stood up very well. >> and if you're a juror, you can see an imperfect witness and still look at facts as some lawyers said, they don't look it back. so let me just end by this note corroborating testimony on the money being a bapta campaign is nearly 100% and that's what michael cohen has testified to. the jury, doesn't have to believe him on that. we have david pecker, we have hope hicks, we have others on the issue of whether they were legal fees or reimbursements, which is what the key second element of the crime is whether they were falsely large as legal fees. we do know from allen weisselberg's handwriting that he took a number, doubled it,

and divided it by 12 as james carville would say, it's the mat stupid. there's nothing about legal fees and that math. so those two elements of the crime have been proven michael cohen can be attack all that. you all rightfully might say that he wasn't perfect, but there's no doubt that weisselberg wrote in his own handwriting, $420,000 divided by 12, and that 420 and three buckets of money doubled up because of income tax that's the case. and whatever you say about michael cohen, he has stood up to corroborate corroborate his corroborating witness. that's my view. >> lanny davis. i appreciate your time. and norm eisen as well. thank you. norm scraping incorporate with you coming up. oh, examine how the former president's defense team tried to tried to punch holes and michael cohen's testimony continually throughout the day, we'll finally just got the full transcripts from today's testimony will have that next

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preferred better science, better results moments go we've got the full transcripts from today's testimony, including that moment about the text exchange between michael cohen and trump's bodyguard, keith schiller that define the trial today. john berman, us now. so

what else have you found? >> all right. so we have the transcript now of that moment, it begins with the text messages that you showed before michael cohen text keith schiller, who can i speak to regarding? phone calls to my cell and office. the dope forgot to block one of them so that was at 7:48. this is todd blanche saying this. >> and by the way, the importance of that is he has testified that he was calling keith schiller to get to trump quickly because he had to get approval to move forward in the stormy day. so blanche is walking through here at 8:02 he said call me, i can put it up back again. he's putting the texts up at a11 is when he leaves that voicemail, michael cohen says, yes, blanche says you call it back at 8:02 for one minute and 36 seconds. kaitlan collins with the clock there at eight for you text in the number of the 14 year-old who was prank following you, correct? cohen says i did, yes immediately checks you back within a few seconds. he said, okay, blend in cohen says, yes, sir. blanche says the very next morning at 7:58, you say, did you reach the family? cohen

says, yes, sir. blanche says, take it down now, here's the question here when you testified on tuesday that you had a specific recollection that that one minute and 36 second phone call on a teuber 24th was not with keith schiller that you called keith schiller any past the phone to president trump, you finalize the deal with stormy daniel's and you said, we're going to move forward and he said yes because you kept him informed all the time. hi. that was your testimony, right? michael cohen says that's correct. blanche says that was a lie. you were actually talking to mr. schiller about the fact that we're getting harassing phone calls from a 14-year-old correct? cohen says part of it was the 14 year-old, but i know that keith was with mr. trump at the time and there was more than potentially just this. that's what i recall based upon the documents, i reviewed, it goes on i mean, blend says five minutes ago i asked you if you remembered harassing phone calls and you said no and then i refresh your recollection. it's totally fair if you don't remember, but now your

testimony is that you are testifying truthfully on tuesday to a one-minute and 36 second phone call and you had enough time in that one minute and 36 seconds to update mr. schiller about all the problems you were having with those harassing phone calls and also update president trump on the status of the stormy daniels situation. i'll stop here, but went on to say that it might have been just a few words of president trump like moving forward, stormy daniels. is that okay? from set agreed might have been just that, but cohen says, based upon the records that i was able to review in light of everything that was going on, i believe i also i believe i also spoke to mr. president trump and told him everything regarding the stormy daniels matter was being worked on. and it's going to be resolved. blanche says we're not asking for your belief. this jury doesn't want to hear what you think happened, then there's an objection which is sustained huge. >> see, michael cohen getting caught. their good. can you go about this when michael cohen realizes that he's in trouble here with the first, the first page you rent this one here. when he says michael cohen realizes he's caught. now and

he says, part of it was the 14 year-old first time he's ever said that on cross-examination, he's never mentioned the 14-year-old. this has never been in testimony and it didn't even seem like and what todd blanche later revealed is he wasn't briefed on the 14-year-old, the prosecutors to your point, they didn't catch it. here's part two of the retreat by michael cohen. and there was more than potentially just this potential i mean, why it's so dangerous for a prosecutor to try to rely on testimony from somebody that certainly from the federal government's perspective is not somebody they would ever have put on trial. this is dangerous stuff because stuff like this happens, mistakes are made. and if they're made your point that's devastating. >> can i can i just ask minimize into the contrary, notwithstanding? >> and that's what devastating i what i am curious about and i'm genuinely curious. i don't mean, isn't it also true that he had other conversations with trump about completing this transaction,

including some the next day. so even if you believe that he's completely wrong about this conversation is that devastating? >> i mean, by the way, you're saying he had other conversations according to him. well, other phone calls, including phone calls that we're not with keith schiller that were that were two donald trump's phone number. right. but but he's testifying about the content of those phone calls. so if you don't if you believe if you can lie about this one, they're entitled to believe that he's lying about all the other ones although they're entitled to disbelieve his entire testimony, and that's and that's the instruction. there'll be given absolutely. right. but but my question is if he's mistaken about this, isn't it possible that he is genuinely mistaken about this? and there are other phone calls. i mean, he was obviously involved in these negotiations since is it is it believable that he had all these negotiations and didn't discuss them with trump. i mean, that seems clearly yeah. >> i'm feel like a broken record, but it's we know the

payments were made. we know that they were hush money trump is not on trial for paying stormy daniel's he's he's just not and that the end of the day, they have to get to this point where the jury is like, okay, we believe that donald trump understood that these were going to be false so recorded on his business records. that's the only thing really at this point that matters. if you also believe i think most rational people du the trump cared about the election that was a factor, but i just i think it's a credibility thing. 100% about michael cohen. do you believe michael cohen when he says he was in a room? with allen weisselberg and they talked about x, y, and z. do you believe and what he said he was on the phone those things might all be true, but it hinges on that one guy because all the other people involved are not on, especially in a situation here where the prosecutor you should made a mistake because what it looks like is that they were trying to sponsor a narrative with this witness and boy wants the jury gets a hold of that. that's troubling that's trouble for the

prosecution. the room today, and clearly after the morning session in that moment and then they took a break, todd blanche says, now a good time for a break. >> and so they had that lunch break, but an hour or so for they came back in trump's demeanor in the courtroom was so different than it's been at any other point in this trial. typically, even when they're cross-examining stormy daniel's or other people, he said he sits back in his chair. he is his eyes closed for a sustained periods of time. he's passing notes. his attorneys furiously today, he had his body language shifted towards the direction of the witness stand. he was looking at michael cohen, sometimes you'd look back at todd blanche as he was asking the question, his body language was completely different today. he seemed much happier. >> you've got some more transcripts. >> i do, although i'm not fully sure which ones here now amylase time his desire to work and there was a lot of that when i do frankly, i didn't think really was that one. i do have exist. do you remember telling congress that it was a lie that you did not want to go to the white house? do you remember saying that to

congress this was blanche spent a long time trying to get cohen to admit that he wanted to work in the white house. and this has been something that was taken up in congress if you years ago, cohen says, i remember telling congress i did not want to work in the white house. blanche it says well, do you remember saying what you testified to on tuesday is that you didn't want to go to the white house. cohen says, yes and then a little bit later, blanche says, do you recall on or around november 13th, president trump pick mr. priebus to be the chief of staff, right? cohen says, yes, sir. blanche says you told your daughter you were disappointed. cohen says that i wasn't considered. yes, sir. in the middle of all of that, blanche also brought up all these people that cohen had apparently said he wanted to work in the white house to include expenses room at the time to be kind of a wash on this because michael cohen just stuck to it saying essentially they're equivalent about semantics. >> and michael cohen was saying, i want it to be personal attorney iowa all along. i want it to be personal attorney to donald j. trump and they were quibbling of do you your daughter, said you want it

to be special assistant and he said, no, that's semantics. >> anyway, what are never leave this would be a decent, nice little piece of peace across because a, it goes to his motivation. you want to get this guy back your bidder and b, it's probably a lie. i know for a fact its ally because i was in a room with two other people who we all know and believe 100% and respect who said he said to me he was ticked that he didn't go to the white house. i mean, he said it too. i think every journal let's he was talking to at the time. so he absolutely lied about that. >> he talked about it in a more nuanced view when he was up when they saw the prosecution, he said he didn't necessarily think he was qualified to be the chief of staff in the west wing. he wanted his name to be considered. he wanted he acknowledged. he said for ego nuanced is a nice way to put it. i call it like a mealy mouth weasel explanation by cohen. >> the former president seemed a little more uplifted as to caitlin is point after his lawyer wondered of cohen today much up what caitlin said zone that. >> and one of trump's former attorneys on whether this might be a turning point for the defense will be right back when

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>> saada luxury mattresses made affordable. >> i hanako montgomery in tokyo. and this is cnn donald trump walking out of the courtroom today after its defense lawyer cornered his former fixer, michael cohen on a phone call or the heart of this case and may have scored some major points with the jury. >> here's the feedback from the former president i think there's a very interesting day, fascinating and it shows what scam herself thing joining us now is one of trump's former attorney's, william brennan. he represented a trump during his second impeachment trial. mr. brennan, appreciate you being with us. i'm wondering the fact that the they went to it's going to be a three-day weekend now how beneficial is that for the defense that jurors have the next three days to think about what they just heard. todd blanche, and michael cohen discuss anderson. thanks for having me. it's not

only beneficial to leave them marinate and ruminate on what they just heard. it also gives mr. blanche and his team three long days to scour that transcript i'm really fine tune. whatever is left of cross-examination. it gives prosecutors the ability to do the same thing for a redirect as well it does, but in that particular comparison, it's like tie goes or the runner kind of thing. it really is advantageous to the defense because, you know, he's he's a defense witness so at this point, caitlin, i know it has a lot more when it comes to something that happened at the end of court today todd blanche would not say whether or not still if donald trump is going to testify when they were talking about other witnesses, that they may bring if this conversation that we're just talking out with michael cohen where he insisted that he spoke to donald trump about that stormy daniels payment on that night when they're saying it might have actually just been about a prank caller why shouldn't donald trump testify

and say that called never happened. >> kaitlan, there's a very good and simple reason for that, because this isn't who should you believe this isn't i want to hear two sides of a story and pick the winner. this is a criminal prosecution where the burden is solely on the prosecution. it never, ever shifts. judge merchan, who i have immense respect for. i spent eight weeks with him in a trump-related case and just to total gentlemen, to deal with but respectfully, he got it wrong in a sidebar, i read a transcript that said he told mr. blanche, well, you know, you open the door one stormy daniels. bye in your opening saying that your client denied that there was a relationship and he said something akin to the jury will have to decide who to believe. really they don't. >> the prosecution has the burden of proof. >> it never, ever shifts. the

defendant in any case can just sit there and do the crossword puzzle if he or she chooses. and in this particular case, they may call no witnesses. i doubt very much of this defendant will tell testify there's talk that they may call on elections expert there's talk that they may call mr. costello, but i would be very, very surprised kaitlan if this defendant testifies, so you don't think do you think that they should call any other witnesses or just be done after michael cohen? >> well, i don't want to fall into the rabbit hole of armchair. quarterback because i hear a lot of people critiquing especially before he really hit his stride, mr. blanche and when you're in that position, so they've being a quarterback of the super bowl that people should really just as greyhound used to say, sit down to leave the driving gas, i don't know who they should call the case seemed to really hinge a lot on coal with all due respect to lanny davis. well, i've affection and respect for i heard is filibuster earlier

about it. it's no big deal. come on you. it's this is what it comes down to. hush money payments are not illegal nda's are not illegal. i think abby hit it right when she said it all depends on tying it to that extra crime yet to do that late-90s big on this document. but where's weisselberg trump and weisselberg cohen, you only are from cohen who has an allergy to veracity. i think that the face is so good shape, you laid out a lot there. sorry, get tvc because it would take me over 90 seconds. but on the point of what you're no one is saying that nda's are illegal here. and i know todd blanche tried to frame them today is just commonplace among the wealthy and the famous that it's just pretty normal. no one is saying donald trump is going to go to jail because of a nondisclosure agreement. it falsifying business records is at the heart of this one point that todd blanche had michael cohen make today was that he has never had a legal retainer while working for donald trump. so the question in turn is then

why did donald trump cut michael cohen 11 checks? it's in sign them pursuant to an invoice that said it was because of illegal retainer i think norm eisen address this briefly, but in my home state, the commonwealth in pennsylvania we have rules of professional conduct as they deal in new york. >> in fact, i sit on hearing panel for the disciplinary board and our rules say the following. when you have a new client, you must express in a either you call it an engagement letter or fee agreement, or a retainer agreement. the terms and scope of your representation. however, when it's a recurring client, you need not do so. so i think it's kind of a term of art that we lawyers him pursuant to a retainer that's the that's the whole point is if there's not a retainer, then why did he pay him pursuant to a retainer it caitlin, i mean, again it's tomato tomato to me, when somebody says, what's your retainer, i hear what you're phi i mean, there's no doubt that cohen worked for him for a

long time, whether he was a fixer or a lawyer or a combination of both. >> and he was it's paid for those services but fell urine, attorney, have you worked for donald trump? have you ever gotten have you ever had a retainer of $100,000 and gotten it grossed up by hundreds of thousands of dollars feel like i should take the fifth on that, but i i've certainly gotten big retainers, but did you have a retainer that was $100,000 and then you got $360,000 from your client? it really is not as black and white as lanny or even the way your phrasing would have you believe there's lots of ways you can structure an agreement with the client. you can have cost outside or cost inside my law firm can outweigh the cost. and then i can bill you for those costs in addition to whatever legal services this is really provide so that document all due respect to lanny. that's no smoking gun and not only do i predict, we certainly won't hear from weisselberg,

the prosecution said, colin's are less witness. i'd asked judge merchan for a missing witness charge because if three people were involved in this alleged deal, trump weisselberg and cohen and cohen's the only one they're hearing from. and cohen's credibility was shred badly today. i think that there's a long way to go to get beyond a reasonable doubt different tubing has a question for you, but but quickly after today though, du is there any chance that there's an acquittal maybe after today and your view has changed so you see this now, is there any chance that there's an acquittal you mean a not guilty or not a hung jury? i mean, trump's team seem to think going into this, there's no way they're getting an acquittal, but it's a great question, but i can tell you from joanne decades and decades of predicting what juries will do. you just never know. i think there's a very strong likelihood of a hung jury which would result in a mistrial. and then the prosecutors would have to decide if they want to bring this thing back a second time. there's always the possibility of a conviction or an

acquittal, but all 12 would have to agree. it can't be like 758466 if one juror as a problem and can't get beyond a reasonable doubt. it will be declared a mistrial because of that hung jury i was just your we're having this discussion about retainers and what are the rules and pennsylvania or new york isn't the issue here? >> yes, it is true if this were a continuing legal representation, it wouldn't matter at our exactly how they they phrased it. but what's different here is that this is a reimbursement for $130,000 that's what this payment was. it wasn't any sort of retainer. so isn't that really much different than how you characterize a continuing legal relationship? jeffrey, it really is not because it's not there's no one definition for a retainer. we won't know what weisselberg's intent and

thoughts were when he allegedly wrote that document goes prosecutors didn't call them, so we have to look at this document like it's like sanskrit and the road well, is that a stone we have to try to glean what it is. >> and then there's other things. there's ink in the milk, jeffrey, there's 50,000 for some polling place. there are some bonus. he was whining about. i mean, i know lanny thinks that this thing is really going to bring it home, but i don't think so after what happened to cohen today, we shall see we shall see, but william bryan thanks so much always good to have you on. appreciate. thank you. anderson, coming up next, how soon could the jury actually get the case will ask the judge who's known this judge for years nothing comes close to this place in the morning i'm so glad i can still come here. >> you see i was diagnosed with obstructive hcm and there were some days i was so short of breath. i thought i'd have to settle for never stepping foot on this trail again, i became great at making it excuses, but i have people who count on me.

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the former president is attacking the speed at which the trial is moving after spending months attempting to delay the proceedings it's very sad story about how there's one that you, as they say, never been charging never been brought and again ago was going to be brought. it should have been brought years ago they tried to rush to get it done before the election so that they can arm so they can hurt their political opponent there, rushing all this russian. there's no refuse charles take forever but this one they are rushing here early in the morning or relief and the evening now they've judge, wants to extend the time periods. so that we can get this thing done fast before the election. >> joining us now is former new york judge gel khan visor, who we should also mention. there's no judge merchan for more than 15 years built brynn.

it was talking about i missing witness charge can you explain what that is? >> sure. missing witness charge is where there is a witness that a party in this case, presumably the people should have called because they had relevant and material information that was non-cumulative that the witness would give favorable information and a witness's available importantly, the defense has to ask for that charge before the people rest. if they don't, it is on timely and they will not get the charge because you have to give the people a chance to say, okay, i'm going to call that witness, so they might be entitled to weisselberg charge based on that. but the truth is, you have these available, they know where it is. it isn't rikers island. they know that he has non-cumulative information. you can talk about that meeting. but in terms of favorability, which is we use the term control and favor ability interchangeably and new york law, i don't know that he would give favor favorable testimony, and i think that's what the people who were favorable testimony. >> and it would be it would

potentially be favorable to donald trump, wouldn't it? >> right? it has to be favorable to the party calling that witness, so it's not favorable to the people they're not going to call him and the defendant wouldn't be entitled to that missing witness because with allen weisselberg i mean, he could plead the fifth or he could not tell the truth that's my exact question. >> is that if the prosecution knows that allen weisselberg would take the fifth, is he actually a mixed missing witness because they know he wouldn't testify well, that's i think that's a very good question. and from my perspective, if i were the one there, i would be telling the people, if you want to avoid that missing witness charge. and of course, this may happen just before the people rest. bring them in here. bring him in here. let's put on the stand outside the presence of the jury and ask him, what are you going to say? we're going to ask you this question, this question, this i'm taking the fifth amendment on the advice of counsel and that becomes an unavailable witness or i'm going to say defense count i wasn't in that meeting and

donald trump is correct and your witnesses are wrong, then he's not a favorable witness, and then testimony, could he change his mind when he's actually called in front of a jury he could i suppose i don't think that would happen, but he could he sure could. because weisselberg has gone to prison which is certainly i mean, can you can be viewed as a favor to the but but but if he changes his testimony, then the defendant isn't going to get them. the defendant isn't going to get them benefit of the missing witness charges and the prosecution had wanted to put into evidence the sort of separation agreement that he had that basically said he couldn't say anything negative about the trump organization, about trump's. >> so they didn't get that. so i think they were trying to make the case that allen weisselberg wouldn't can't be trusted to testified truthfully about donald trump because he saw as financial ties to the trump organization that's paying him and he wouldn't be the only on trustee witness in the case.

>> keith schiller though, is that severance agreement? he got paid $2 million. he could only cooperate with law enforcement if he was subpoenaed for allen weisselberg, keith schiller, trump's body man, who was the person on that call that night that caught michael cohen up? he is not in prison. he lives in florida. i believe when he left the white house, that's very when at least. and so that's the other question, you know, if your thought on the jury, i'm wondering where as allen weisselberg because i haven't heard that he's in prison where is keith schiller? because i haven't heard why he hasn't been on the web, but it's the same analysis. i don't think keith schiller is going to be in a position to offer favorable evidence to the people and therefore, they should have called that witness. >> but of course, the people have to make those noises in order to prevent the missing witness charge i don't think they've don't question why can't the defense the defense can call witnesses, why can't they call why well, they can but they have no burden right. so they don't have to they don't have to. if it turns out that you would decide against giving the missing witness charge because the testimony wouldn't be favorable, would you allow the defense to then stand up and say to the jury,

argue to the jury in closing, folks where's allen weisselberg numbers case? >> you would allow that yes. >> can i can i assume that's why the instruction i don't think really makes the end of the day that much during the instruction is permissive. it's right. it doesn't it's such a week instruction in my experience, i'm not sure the jury pays as much attention can to that as they du the closing argument where the defense stands up and says, a government has the burden of proof here and you heard was in that meeting, you never heard from this witness. >> what does that tell you about the people's case? >> we've had a lot of talk about hung juries you you've been in the center street courthouse for you were in a very long time. can you estimate what percentage of criminal cases and in hungary's very few like five, 1%, i don't know. i mean, i've had to estimate dozens and dozens of cases, maybe hundreds. i don't think i had a hung jury. >> okay. well, that's a datapoint. >> i mean, do you know in the case of a hung jury, some people would say it usually takes to jurors to actually

hang a jury because what if it just won a system is that i don't don't know if that's true. i've told you before that i do talk to jurors. >> are all of my jurors after i always have a conversation with them, i get a little bit of insight in sometimes i hear when we weren't so sure. and then, gera two said this and i accepted it. so sometimes i don't get involved in their deliberations, but sometimes they just tell me something, but i just have one thing to that. i think there's one exception to the general rule that the judges quite right. >> people have a super belief in the fact that hung juries are actually a possible result and that they happen with some regularity. >> they don't i will say in high-profile cases particularly ones with a lot of publicity, this obviously falls into those those are the places where you see them. yeah, the rare situation happens in high-profile case. that's at least that's been my experience. >> i may be no good but i tried

to cases that ended up in hungary and they're both high-profile. one was very high-profile, had a low profile case that ended in a hunter. >> there you go there's the judge says that there's a lot of institutional pressure in a good way on the jury to reach unanimity. >> i mean, if they give an indication during their deliberation, if they send a note saying, judge, we're having a problem the judge will then eventually deliver what we call an alan charge, meaning it is your job if humanly possible, to reach unanimity, you need to all keep open-mind. you need to get back in there. i think that's serious works, right? they follow the judge's instruction about that, and i think they really do try to make a concerted effort if at all possible, even if certain jurors are tending to go one way to listen to their fellow jurors and to try to resolve it. >> and arrive at a human unanimous verdict, whatever that verdict i've been really struck by judge merchan and how sort of kind he is with the jury and thoughtful. >> he is about them. not only saying good morning and things like that, but today he was

hoping to have court next wednesday. but he said to the jury i'd like to do court next wednesday but if even one of you on this panel has any conflict with that and it would be a hardship. just let our bailiffs know when during the next break and we won't do it at all. and they came back and said, jury couldn't do it. >> i happy jury is a verdict rendering jury and the court staff has been so so professional and so great with handling such a high profile case, they had to handle the trump's civil fraud case, but they really have been amazing. >> they have any the court officers are fabulous. >> it's incredible attempt the privilege of going into that corner hi, watching it all. it really changes once perspective thank you, everyone. >> great, great panels. and that's it for us. the news continues right here on cnn you're calling some people find there's at an early age. >> others later in life no matter when you find it. >> instead of yourself, lucky because it becomes your everything are calling was to build trucks.

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