so it's kind of an incredible place, but sad that it has to exist. aaron, i would tell you this that overall, if you look at the drug crisis in this country over the last few years, the amount of usage has actually gone down. but at the same time, drugs have become deadlier. they've become easier to obtain for people. so a lot of these kids, they're getting them on social media, the ordered on social media, though venmo drug dealer and they'll get their drugs. and that's why adolescent drug overdoses have doubled over the past few years one of the things keith said to me, aaron, that really stuck out because i have three teenagers as you know he said a lot of parents, they simply don't know for months that their kid has started using. and i'm not saying that to scare parents, but i think it's really important that you understand that, but also that the school can be a place where kids are an active recovery, not just sporadically, but for years at a time. >> all right. dr. sanjay gupta. thank you so much. >> you've got an aaron. thank you. >> and don't miss the champions for change. one special

saturday night at nine easter >> a 60 starts now good evening on what was a blockbuster de in the criminal hush money trial. >> the former president in blockbuster because after what has at times been a meandering cross-examination, the prosecution is most important witness, michael cohen today, trump attorney todd blanche was able to repeatedly raised questions about cohen's honesty. not just in the past, but his honesty and his testimony before this jury this week i was in the courtroom this morning just before the lunch break. blanche presented text messages to cohen between him and former trump bodyguard keith schiller. the messages were from october 24, 2016 and they appear to contradict it. testimony cohen gave monday on direct examination that goes to the heart of the alleged scheme to falsify business records earlier in the week, cohen testified about texting schiller. he said under oath that he needed to talk to trump urgently schiller was always by his side. he testified that he you schiller's phone to speak

to the former president cohen told the jury in his earlier testimony that the purpose of the call was, quote, to discuss the stormy daniels matter and the resolution of it but today, todd blanche did something the prosecutors had apparently not done, or at least not discussed with michael cohen and their questioning of him on the witness stand. blanche read previous text messages. cone had received shortly before he texted schiller they show that cohen was responding to a 14-year-old crank color who had been pranking him by phone for days. cohen texted schiller and him about the prank calls and wanting help from schiller about the calls. and that appears is why he then called schiller blanche appeared to have trapped cohen arguing that the subsequent call between him and schiller last only 90 six seconds in question whether in this quote comes to us from our reporters in the room, you had enough time to update schiller about all the problems you were having and also update president trump about the status of the stormy daniels situation. it's important to remember that cohen had never mentioned this 14-year-old crank color and testimony. blanche directly stated that he lied under oath earlier this

week think about speaking within candidate trump on that day. it was a major moment on a de that's all several other notable developments, including the sources tell cnn the defense may call a former attorney for cohen, robert costello, to continue the defense argument that the onetime fixer for the former president is a liar who have the judge also suggested summations could begin next week. there's a lot to talk to with our panel joining us as robert ray of former president's council during his first impeachment trial, former federal prosecutor jeffrey 2-bit and seen an anchor, abby phillip, also, three more who witness that pivotal moment in a courtroom today are seen and anchor kaitlan collins went after the lunch break. norm eisen, who was the council that was democrats during that first impeachment because they're, it's morning and correspondent kara scannell. qarrah. was that moment, the one that stood out to you owe by far? >> absolutely. i mean, it was the big moment of the day and the way that todd blanche did it spent a lot of the morning on these inconsistent statements drawing out when michael cohen may have lied and

then he gets to this phone call and he he begins by saying you spoke with the former. you testified on monday, you spoke with trump on the 24th cohen says yes and he says, do you remember was on speaker phone or did schiller hand the phone comes like, i don't remember. so he's he's setting it up in such a way that you think you're going back to this. and then he says, and what about these texts? messages and then goes exactly as you just described, just confronting cohen with these text messages and the timestamps that were so close and that showed keith schiller saying to him cohen's complaining about this 14 real calling schiller says at 8:02, call me coming, calls him at 8:02. it's a 96 second phone call and cohen then says, well, you know, blanche is just building this crescendo. he is focusing in on this on cohen and he's like admitted you lied, you made up this call. and cohen says, i'm not sure that's accurate later on he tried to correct that a bit and said that the reason why he

remembered this specificly was because this was as he put it, so important such a critical thing. and so he had it in his memory has been telling the story for six years. i'm not sure that that did the job though. >> norm. i mean, did you believe michael cohen in what his response to this was because his response fully evolved into, well, i was doing both when he was cornered, he could have basically either said, you know what, i misremembered this, which would have been devastating or what he did which was i did both. i both talked to keith schiller about this 14 year-old boy who i want to get vengeance against, which was bizarre enough and i had time to tell president trump is crucial piece of information, which is i'm going ahead with the stormy deal and trump agreed and there was a ferocious debate in the courtroom between the people who thought it was a true perry mason moment. >> and some in my row so who

said really? yes, george, our friend george conway. he said, what is everybody getting so exercise church think the same demand is around. looted anything, sitting just just in front of andersen. >> i wanted to grab you and be like, oh, my god, norton, are you hearing we had a quick conversation about it. >> it was a good moment of cross. it was a very professional and powerful moment of cross i think if cohen had been shown those texts by the prosecution on the direct examination, if they had refresh his recollection, there's nothing implausible about, but actually what's happening right now. i think both subject it seems like a huge mistake. by prosecutors was not the best. it was not do they know did they not look at what the texas there it was not

their finest moment. >> i my experience has been it wasn't it was a blow on the chin, but my experience, 30 years of doing this is that it takes more than one punched knock out a witness. this is a witness that the jury had believed but watching the jury at the time, i did not think it was a knockout blow. here's the thing if i'm a juror and again, it's impossible possible to reduce jurors. >> but if i'm a juror and i've heard and i've been warned that michael cohen lie as the prosecutors have said this, they've set it up. i'm prepared for that. i'm prepared for he's lied in the past repeatedly. i don't know if a juror is prepared for he lied to this jury two days ago, but now he's really telling the truth. i mean, i don't know. does that does a juror make a difference between oh, yeah. here's old lives, but he's really now telling the truth. >> jurors understand any clean this up in the hydrogen he was stronger after lunch. memory is

not perfect. okay people do not have perfect recollection but you're gonna get three for almost witnesses, except for an inveterate liar. so let me just show you what's a really hard or just one started. you want to think is out before it's going to leave my mind, which is, if this phone call if his testimony previously was it was so urgent that i talked to trump because i got to check in with the boss on everything i do and, i'm going forward with the stormy daniels payment and he's got to approve it. so i'm calling him now. it's going to be a quick phone call. i called keith schiller because i want to talk to the boss. if that was so urgent in his mind why is he obsessing about a 14-year-old boy who was allegedly prank calling him and contacting keith schiller saying, i got to talk to you you about this weird phone number that shows up. it's not i got to talk to the boss or something really urgent and calling keith schiller and

talking the boss. and then after that conversation is over, she'll same new chiller. oh, by the way, there's this phone number is not it seems like the 14 year-old boy is the reason he's calling what they're asked. >> i mean, you just basically made the defense's case for the memories are not perfect. that is exactly what they're saying to michael cohen that your memory is not perfect and you don't remember exactly that you haven't spoke to donald trump on this phone call? i mean, his most devastating line after the text of the 14 year-old was i believe i spoke with mr. he didn't even double down on it after he was pressed on it. and so that is exactly there entire case here that they've been saying michael cohen, how can you not remember this? but then you remember this phone call with donald trump. >> the best part of cross-examination was todd blanche is follow-up, which was the jury is not interested in what you believe she got objective, doesn't matter. that's the kind of comment that you make. you don't care whether that objection sustained, your communicating to the journey said that right? looking at the jurors, whether absolutely absolutely. >> right eye as kaitlan, sad

luck. i think the issue with michael cohen is that particularly when you have animus toward another person which they have demonstrated pretty clearly it is also plausible for the jury to believe that your memory is colored by your desire to see donald trump behind bars. and that's why this moment i think is so devastating because he is so crystal clear on everything that is bad for donald trump's case. but on everything from the mundane to other things that apparently at the time he was really worked up about. he cannot remember it. and that is both a problem from the cases perspective, but i just think in general from michael cohen, this is the issue with him, is that you cannot always be sure yes, he's been telling the story for six years, but in those six years, he's been trying to get donald trump convicted of crimes is also fascinating. the guardian today, because i had not, i must admit i have not listened to michael cohen's podcasts. may a culpa but it was was play shocking, but it was play a

moment of it was played in the courtroom today. it, was so fascinating because, you know, michael cohen's testimony has been very even keeled and demean very rational, very. yes, ma'am. no, sir. all this and suddenly they played this thing and there's a guy's screaming in the room like you, know, it's just know my nose i was somebody who does a podcast. i was like, is this as actual normal speaking voice and a podcast because it's literally yelling and it's clearly written down because he's speaking in a way that's not so he's written down these yet l's like it's gotta be all in caps. i mean, it was shocking. i was like between between that just the volume of him and compared with his very demeanor, that was i also was like, whoa, i mean, it fill the courtroom. i don't know if somebody turned up the volume attendant loud. i was like did they is this intentionally too loud? i'm totally have a cliff of the pikas. let's play it

and play it loud because it was quite loud in the court room. i got to tell you that's your volume i truly hope that this man ends up in prison. >> it will bring back the year that i lost or the damage done to my family but revenge is a dish best served cold. and you better believe i want this man to go down and rot inside for what he did to me and my family so that's what was played in court. a little biased. i don't know but but there's i think a fundamental question about michael cohen as a witness, which is is the jury are you going to listen to him? >> and the cross and the history of lying and say, the hell with this guy. i mean, just write him off or are they going to say, look, he's had this traumatic experience. he went to prison because he thought he was helping donald trump. let's parse each statement and see whether those states minister corroborated. and this is really i think the prosecution's great hope, and this is why they examined him

the way they did on direct, which was scaffolding his testimony with test messages phone records. now the big problem of width today is those text messages came back to bite them at least in this one exchange, but it is also worth mentioning that he had years of contact with donald trump. it's not intubate that whether he could whether he was in touch with him, if he's mistaken about this one phone call, one prosecution responses. so what? no, no, no, it was in touch for ten years, but it's not just this one phone on call one. you also have to remember there are two attorneys on this jury who are listening to michael cohen admit that he agrees it's unethical for an attorney to record their client. they're listening to that. todd blanche is trying to catch him in other inconsistencies. he seems like he's about to catch him in another lie on monday. this is something i'm watching because he asked him about recording conversations with reporters first, which michael cohen said he did pretty often, but he said he stopped after the 2016

campaign and then todd blanche pressed him on that. he said, i would have to check and todd blanche responded with this knowing tone. will we'll check together in a minute, so it seems like he's just kept catching. maybe it doesn't change the actual documents, but it could really undermine the credibility ability caitlin, you know, this is a controversial view, but attorneys are also human beings and they understand that sometimes people do stupid things. sometimes people say when things, when they're angry and they hold grudges that doesn't mean every word they say is a lie and that's the challenge for the prosecutors. to say, look, we know he lied and they brought out a lot of that on direct. unfortunately, for them, not everything. i mean, they certainly should have brought out this whole thing about the 14-year-old, but this wasn't a total surprise to the jury. i suspect obviously, i don't that's why this case from day one starting with david pecker and the august 2015 meeting in trump tower where you have pecker agreeing that there is

going to be this activity, this catch and kill activity to benefit the campaign and going all throughout the testimony with those corroborating notes in alice and weisselberg's hand this is one tile in a mosaic and even today, cohen was much stronger in the afternoon and the jury does not necessarily fixate on that one moment where there's also three because all during the i mean, for until the exciting in break before the lunch break, i kept sitting there wondering, well, all todd blanche is talking about is just lies by michael cohen about things in general, not anything to do with a document that was signed about stormy daniels or anything to do with stormy downs or anything to do with hush money payments. and to me it felt very meandering and you i was like, okay, yeah, we know the guy has lied a lot and that's exactly except for one thing.

>> and that's another blockbuster area of this testimony, which i think is extraordinary, doesn't seem to be something many people have picked up on and that is the following it is an extraordinary thing in my experience for a cooperating witness to take the stand and admit under oath at our trial that they pleaded guilty to something that they didn't commit in other words, per during themselves at the time of the plea allocution. >> now, i know there's all kinds of stuff here about replaying the how many times can he be untruthful and how many times is the untruthful under oath? but i have to tell you. i mean, at least as i learned, being a prosecutor, if you have a cooperating witness that can't tell the truth that a plea allocution that means that witness is basically worthless. >> he testified he lied to the judge wright in this prior case, and his plea was voluntary. and then when he was when todd blanche asked him, well what do you think the judge would have thought of? you wouldn't don't you think

the judge would like to have known you were lying? i mean, don't you think that would have impacted his decision and it would have and michael cohen was like, i don't know. he said the judge was in on it. so, get us attorney's was in on it. i mean, that's what i'm pretty and the top lunches for cross-examination. so basically, whenever you get into a problem, it's always blame somebody else, blame president trump, blame the judge, blame the justice department, blame the us attorney's office for the southern district of new york. blame congress. >> i mean, how many places do you have to go or this guy has slide many times under oath and it's always somebody else's fault. >> it's not his fault i mean, i got to tell you in summation that's pretty powerful evidence to a jury to say you shouldn't believe anything. this guy says. and if you have to rely on his testimony in any fashion whatsoever in order to convict donald trump iee an order to fix donald trump? its intent. >> you have a reasonable doubt. >> you can't have anything else. butter reasonable doubt and yet in that moment, when blanche tried to push him and said so you're not accepting

responsibility. >> he said, i do accept responsibility. he stood up to max, but he doesn't accept responsibility. norm for the most important thing which is he saying that he didn't plead guilty to a crime and coincides 22nd. >> now, he say that he accepts responsibility. he was the meaning and hitching. its actual thoughts don't seem to accept responsibility, but the phrase he uses, the phrase i accept full responsibility constant and there can't be any daylight there because if there is daylight that is a huge problem for the project are going to get a break and we're gonna have a lot more kara scannell. thank you so much as always, everyone else is going to stay here. silver com we just received the image, the defense used of that texts cohen centers schiller about the crank color will show you that plus john berman is going through today's transcripts victims of mesothelioma and their families may be entitled to receive a cash award from the estimated $30 in asbestos trust funds with over $50

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a slow network is no network for business. that's why more choose comcast business. and now, we're introducing ultimate speed for business —our fastest plans yet. we're up to 12 times faster than verizon, at&t, and t-mobile. and existing customers could even get up to triple the speeds... at no additional cost. it's ultimate speed for ultimate business. don't miss out on our fastest speed plans yet! switch to comcast business and get started for $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. call today! preferred better science, better results. >> i'm natasha bertrand at the pentagon. >> and this is cnn short time ago we received images of that text exchange between michael cohen and then candidate trump's bodyguard, keith schiller. that defense attorneys showed today. >> again, it was approved. their assertion that cohen did not ask to speak to trump about stormy daniels, as he testified earlier in the week, but he wanted to talk to the bodyguard

actually to keith schiller about a crank call or a series of crank calls. this the key moment according cohen's taxed, who can i speak to regarding harassing calls to my cell and office, the dope forgot to block his call on one of them. the call was these calls for allegedly by 14 after that, keith schiller texts cohen saying call me and surely after minute, seconds later, there's a call from from michael cohen to keith schiller which he had previously testified was a call to get to trump to tell them important news that he was moving ahead on the payments to stormy daniels. any claim that trump had to agree, we're joined now by john berman, who has more on this moment, although the full text of this cross-examination that so that was so momentous is not out. we have almost all of today's transcript except this part. as you can imagine, which is very frustrated, but you need a great job explaining it based on what you and others have reported from inside the courtroom? >> look, he todd blanche one after michael cohen on this, michael cohen basically said, i

know that keith was with mr. trump at the time and that there was more potentially than this. >> in other words, more potentially than me just talking to keith about the kid, maybe i talked to him about something else. then he said, i always ran everything by the boss immediately. and in this case, it would have been saying everything has been taken care of. it's been resolved, and then he ultimately had too many because based on what was going on, based on the text messages and so on, based on the other text messages about stormy daniels matter, that is how we came to the conclusion that he talked to trump about stormy daniels on this phone call. it was all the other things. blanche challenged cohen to confirm that his trial testimony was based on materials prosecutors showed him in preparation for quick questioning. >> this was an important moment because then blanche has saying, well, wait a minute so you're only testifying to this phone call because prosecutors showed you a call log that had this phone call and you're claiming that that basically jarred your memory. this is the setup of this crucial phone set

up to the cross-examination to follow. >> he said, yes, that refreshed my recollection. well, we do it just didn't refresh his recollection of the 14-year-olds color. >> can i ask a question? what what is the ultimate significance of let's assume he just lied about all this. but does this mean that donald trump didn't know that he was, he was reimbursing know, but it's what exclaiming this was one of the examples. this was a key moment when he directly told donald trump i'm going ahead with these payments and trump approved it and he trope kept do it. >> but but we have abundant proof, including trump's own words in a tweet, in a, in a financial disclosure form from the white house where he says, i reimbursed michael cohen four. so why is that you have additional communications the

next day with cohen davidson, howard, and pecker, and then you have to direct calls on the 26th at 8:26 a.m. and eight 30, 4:00 a.m. and that was when he was wrong and that was when he was making the transfer actually have the transcript of that call two days later where colvin was asked, did you call mr. trump before you went upset? >> set up the account to make the transfer. he goes, yes what in substance that you discuss with them on these two calls? cohen said in direct, i wanted to ensure once again, he approved what i was doing because i required approval from him on all of this, by the way, i should also point out earlier that morning, i guess before that, he texted the keith schiller back pursuing the family of the 14 phone call or he would seems very obsessed on this milk saying, please don't do this. i'm 14 years, literally since when morning that moment happened then they went to break, which is a great moment for the defense to end on, obviously, then they come back in the room and todd blanche greeted michael cohen when he was at the witness stand. >> his boys is voice was barely audible. he he said good

afternoon, mr. cohen and michael cohen responded. mr. blanche, but you could barely hear it in the courtroom and obviously he's speaking into a microphone then the text did not been redacted when you were still in the courtrooms? i don't believe they showed them on the screen. they redacted what they needed to during the lunch break. so then they put them up on the screen and made michael cohen read what he was texting this 14-year-old that when the kids said he was 14, allegedly, the michael cohen responded, will you need to tell your parent or guardian that the secret? service is now responsible for handling this, and it just kind of is this moment where the jury doesn't often show a lot and they clearly were experiencing the same, had the same look that you had when you came and for obvious reasons let's not forget, this is from 2016. we're in 2024. this is eight years ago. now refreshing somebody's recollection with a text message, we'll do you really remember that this is what happened? >> i mean, that's the whole point of the cross-examination.

>> you basically testify here because the prosecution showed you a bunch of documents and stuff in your in your telling us what you remember for any of you hadn't been shown those documents, you wouldn't be able to tie him anything. >> norms point that it wasn't just this one phone call. it was a whole series of phone calls right around this time at exactly the time he is he is transferring the money. is that all made up to know and the testimony it cohen put in in his direct about this call was very general testimony. he was not purporting to remember exactly what was said back and forth. i think i understand the the mental excitement of that moment of confrontation. but i think in the larger scheme of things, this gigantic mosaic that corroborates michael cohen, the lack of any other explanation for what trump was doing the later corroborating statement, the log series of witnesses, the many documents i

don't believe the jury is going to seize on it. if you add one to knockout punches, yes. you would allayed co and flat. this was just wondering, it comes out with my here's my thing about where about this statement. and also just about michael cohen in general there's abundant evidence to donald trump knew about the hush money payments, but that is not the issue here. the issue is the falsification of business records from my understanding of the evidence, there's really one key moment where michael cohen basically makes the case that donald trump understood that it was going to be fraudulently put on the books as legal fees, and that was a meeting that he had with allen weisselberg and donald trump. there are only three people who know what goes on there. one of them is the defendant, the other one is not going to testify, and the other one is michael cohen and so if i'm a lawyer, unless you believe michael cohen with regard to that, that evidence and the defense is going to

make the argument and summation his testimony is worthless, and these are the examples, and he's trying to gild the lily and he, he's testifying and making it up. unless you can believe beyond a reasonable doubt that that conversation happened and there's proof of that happened the way that my the way he said right half because it's only that way which would prove donald trump's intent. there's no way that a jury should convict on that evidence unanimously, beyond a reasonable doubt. that's going to be and that is why the doubt that is put on the table by michael cohen's recollection of a conversation that he describes as being pivotal is look, i mean, the bar is so low for the defense to just say to convince one juror that there is not enough evidence. >> i'm not saying that the preponderance of evidence is the donald trump knew what was going on and that there is a common sense view that one could have, that he understood that this was not going to be put on the books correctly. but in this court, it takes much

less than that to get a juror to say, i don't know if i can believe this guy about this one really critical conversation that has to do with how the records, how the payments were structured so that the records could be falsified. that's the main problem i think right now for the prosecution will have more transcripts later. john berman, thanks so much. coming up jury may view a potential witness for the defense who testified before congress yesterday, disputing michael cohen's own sworn testimony in the hush money trial. that's when your home needs work, where do you go and you angie guys were and you're gay man with angie, find top rated certified pros in your area plus compare quotes and pricing to help you get all your jobs done well, find top rated certified pros in your area at angie.com? a heart attack. >> do they have life insurance? >> no. >> but we have life insurance john, i'm trying to find something we can afford fortunately, it only a few minutes, select poll found john a $500,000 policy for only $29

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and by extension, former president trump to pressure cohen not to flip on wednesday, castello appeared before the house subcommittee on the so-called weaponization of the federal government to dispute that the story he told yesterday was that rudy giuliani and i wish somehow conspiring to try and keep him quiet, to try and keep him from flipping. >> that's the term we use in the trade for cooperating that's ridiculous. i asked for a meeting with a district attorney bragg because i wanted to go in there, let him look me in the eye and let me explain all of the stuff that we had on michael cohen that showed that he's an inveterate liar. >> that's amazing. >> this guy. he was representing him and he's calling his client an inveterate liar du once he actually can technically representing him a pretty that's what i that's certainly not because spillover emails or the like a look by the way the defense may may call him now.

>> yes. although he is a weird i mean, it's weird that they had this testimony to get this testimony. >> apparently, the privilege was waived. i don't know exactly how that happened. that's what i would be pretty unusual to call a witness to impeach a another witness on cross-examination will see if the judge allows it, but castello, if he comes his emails to cohen are the most extraordinary. >> it's like a cookbook for witness tampering let's exactly like this. >> by the way, i forgot got to introduce for not just the veal very and trials are hello, run out michael cohen got absolutely hammered today but he's a liar, is not a theory of defense. >> we still don't know what, what is the theory of defense.

they opened as i've said, that these were legitimate legal fees. there's been no evidence of that. michael cohen is sticking to the story that i did no legal work for them so hammering michael cohen and saying he's a liar, dopa, i think the jury thinks he is a liar. maybe they have questions about some of these phone calls, but ts other corroborating evidence and i still don't understand what the theory is, and we all know you have to have a theory of defense if you want to win a criminal case well, that was jeffrey your argument along which is okay. the prosecution has put forth a set of facts, believed them are not what is the defense argument exactly? >> there are certain undisputed facts in this case. >> the two most important of which are michael, cohen paid stormy daniels $130,000. no one is going to dispute that. >> the other undisputed fact is that donald trump paid michael cohen $420,000. is there any explanation in front of the jury other than this was a

reimbursement for what? >> for what he paid out. now, that means that the documents are false. that means that the corporate documents are false the issue in the case is did donald trump? no. or cause those documents to be false? that to me is the only disputed issue in this case because the rest of it is just proved and deborah, you to the other point of that that was raised today, it'll be fascinating to see how the prosecution handles this. is todd blanche grilled michael cohen on what he testified recently was that in 2017, 2018, he was barely doing any legal work for the trump family, but he he never had a retainer. well, todd blanche went back and said ever since you worked at the trump organization when he left it is law firm the day he met trump and went to try to get a job there. he never had a retainer, michael cohen said that was correct. and top let's just trying to make the point where you've never had a retainer, so it's not unusual that you didn't have one in 2017 and 2018, but then the question that i had sitting there in the courtroom was when michael cohen sent those invoices to

allen weisselberg. they were paid pursuant to a legal retainer. it said it on every check we looked at all 11 of them and so the question i would have for the defense there is okay. well, then why was he being paid pursuant to a retainer if he's never had because there was no retainer, it's a lie. it was injured that wasn't the issue. the issue is whether there's a written retainer agreement, not whether or not there's has been retained. >> no. he said he's never had a retainer period i was their todd blanche drill down, yes. >> but what he means by that is there was no written retainer agreement, but he didn't wasn't by trump. it is aware painter, issue that's kind of a sideshow. >> it's not like that big a deal really in the legal field, whether or not you have returner gag, you should have what legal i think the defense painted themselves into a corner. what did he do and what did donald trump think that he was writing those $35,000 checks for what did he think he was paying for? and we don't have any answer to that do you

think? >> think it was effective for todd blanche to push the cross-examination all the way to the end of the day so that tomorrow there's no cord and you norm you brought this up in the elevator during the lunch break, you were like he's going to push it all the ways that they spend three days ruminating on the lives of michael cohen look, you can look at it both ways. in some ways, i think i would have gotten him off the stand and ended with him. and just been done with him. then you get some distance. and then if you're going to put on a defense case, maybe they're going to call an expert. they say, i don't know some election expert then you start fresh on monday because the prosecution would have had to get up today and do their redirect. it's a little tougher to do it when you don't have three days to prepare because short the defense is reviewing the transcript, but guess who else the prosecution and they're going to figure out all the things they need to fix on monday. so what would have been maybe a 45-minute redirect might be an hour-and-a-half redirect on monday now that you

gave them those three, that's yeah, maybe but i don't if the prosecution had done redirect today, they wouldn't have finished. >> can i was still have gone over to next and caitlin is very interesting retainer point. >> this is one of the most obscure areas of law. the reason which makes your eyes spoke does okay. the figure major yell at really your eyes retainer letters the reason he didn't need a retainer was because he was employed by the trump organization. he was in-house. in-house lawyers don't need a retainer letter when you leave under new york rules, you are supposed to have a written retainer. so it is proof that he was not actually doing legal work, that he didn't have a written retainer letters. i'm that's why hoffinger close that was one of her last points in the closing, you're saying that when he was working for trump at the time he didn't need one. he didn't

because he didn't have was yeah, he was in-house at trump or at trump work. so that was one of the many todd blanche lines of questioning that fell flat today, there were times when the jury was bored. there was a lot of questions too about what michael cohen wanted after the election we know what position he wanted in the white house. there was a lot of testimony about that which i thought i didn't see it going away or did did you i mean, it was interminable and it led no place. >> i mean, michael michael cohen kept saying i wanted to be personal attorney to donald j. trump, which align he repeated i like i like your impression. >> i just i lost interest in and-a-half and they were claiming know, you want to be special counsel and that was a phrase his daughter had used. >> i mean, it just seemed i think it would also be a mistake for the defense to try to weirdly convinced the jury that this wasn't about the election. i mean, that is also one of the things that i think is kind of settled like we know

look big, say they're going to call this election expert. i think the judge is going to allow them to call. i think it's bradley smith in his order. he said that they can fall him to say this is how the federal election commission works. these are some of the definitions, but there's one definition that i think you need to watch out for and what is a personal expense versus a business expense? and the election law says, and it's 50 to usc 30114 and it says it's a personal expense. if you would have made it irrespective of your campaign. and the argument that they've been trying to weave in the defense is that he would have made this payment to stormy daniels to protect his family, to protect millennia. so i think they're going to try and argue he would have made this payment irrespective of the campaign therefore, it is not a campaign finance violation. and therefore, by the way, the federal election commission would have agreed and whether they'll be able to get that in sounds unlikely. >> but if you had gone to the

federal election commission and truthfully disclose, we want to make this payment to stormy daniel's we we want her to go away. we think that it may have some effects on the outcome of the election will you? let's prove this as a campaign expenditure. the fec would have looked at them like, what are you out of your mind? so it can't both be what the prosecutors? it can't both be. wait a second. this is a concealed campaign expenditure if, if the people who make those fine judgments are like wait a note of course it's a personal expense i mean, you know, the john edwards came essentially proof for that. exactly the words case and it creates an interesting legal issue. and i think that's one reason why you strategize to have those two lawyers on there because they're gonna be like getting this. >> do you think that anything today's proceedings change? what do you think that the jury is thinking about this case and also todd blanche blanche got very heated on this. i mean, he called him a liar. he grabbed the microphone like closely like someone like drunk at a party might grab a mic and his

voice was loud and the room, he one point said to the jurors, like, they don't want to hear whatever is that effective. i mean, it was it was a tension. >> michael cohen, it's, you know, you've got to you got to pick your witnesses. you can't you can't just be able in a china shop with everybody. but i think with michael cohen, i think it was totally fine. i was a wedding singer moment it was written and it has to be all. >> thank you so much, really fascinating. natalie, did trump's lawyer, todd blanche raised his voice as i just said, at times, he also raised his hand was dramatic flair to put a visual on the point. my next guest it's captured some of that, those intense moments we'll talk to one of the great courtroom artists ahead i'm nfl hall of famer dan marino. >> you know, i used to be afraid of things like the fence of leinz losing games. what's insane is that years later, by biggest fear became trying to fall asleep, but the insanity stop. ron learned about relaxing them sleep. i started sleeping again. the first night

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that she is back with us tonight you've got to be exhausted. i appreciate you coming in to talk about the day i mean, too many people in the courtroom, this was an exciting de with the cross-examination toward the end of it, you capture this moment of i'm todd blanche raising his hand. that was in his cross-examination of michael cohen, and he was repeatedly saying, you've sworn in a courtroom, you've raised your right hand do when you saw that, had you already started the sketch or did you suddenly have to? shift and start a whole new sketch of todd blanche raising his arms. know this was going to be the moment i did not know it'd be the moment and i did start another one with him leaning over the podium like this. >> he does a lot. then he raised his hand. i had to switch that so can you just erase an so many times he raised this? >> you sworn to tell the truth, then what did it mean? >> and in fact, a certain point the judge seemed to of be like, okay, we got it. let's move along.

>> but did you have to like erase the arms are just start a whole new skin? >> know, i braced the arm. i mean, doesn't always work, but that's what i did this time because i had so much else already in there. i felt, oh, i think i could just put that arm up. it's there now. pull it up. you've heard a lot of cross-examinations. did you think did this one register to you? in any particular way no you didn't think it was as excited? i haven't seen many, so i thought the end was incredibly ross is often exciting and it should be lawyers get really excited when they're going to cross somebody. i think that's why they call it the crucible of cross-examination blanche is not not really well-practiced in a cross-examination. i mean, he i think he would even acknowledge that. and so today was really a big test for him. and for him to kinda have, you know, this disbelieving tone in his voice is michael cohen is answering his questions, raising his hands, raising his voice kinda this high pitched voice at times to say, no one

can believe believe what you're saying. almost like tick at times, like, are you kidding me? yeah. i'd say are you finished now, please don't give a speech. >> i understand your characterization, but we just read it nothing on that letter is not the truth. and i'll just say one moment that i noticed today was after a break, they were walking back in the room. normally trump's strides in by himself. he's at the front of the room. you can comes in alone and then every we're on trails and biden, he and todd blanche, we're walking side-by-side, kinda talking to one another. you never really see trump like that with his attorney walking into the room? >> no. you're right. he's always behind him. >> todd blanche, i will say that in some of those more shrill todd blanche moments, including the two at the end where he confronted cohen and there was an objection and the objection was sustained. those were moments that the jury paid. i thought hard to discern attention. they were very attentive. you couldn't read them. they were visibly annoyed with blanche. i saw i roll lynge i really looking away, it

was too much and it detracted. it shows his lack of experience because it actually detracted from the point he was making, he would have been better to let the revelation that he had elicited from cohen breathe rather than and being objected to and so so loud and unpleasant added it looked to me like the jury was not liking todd blanche very much in those moments. while editorializing while you're cross-examining a witness is usually a bad idea. i mean, that's not what you're there to do. >> your their bad from a legal standpoint or just from a product jury impact from a tactical jury impact standpoint, you the jury is not interested in your editorializing. they want to try to get to the facts just like every jury wants to get to the facts. but that moment with the hand raised or whatever i'm sure that you dated your

work and probably noted the time to write someday that will probably appear on todd blanche's office wall from short for phi there you go i love critiquing lawyers as much as the next person, but every time i have talked to jurors almost always what you hear from them ms oh, the lawyers were fine, but the evidence was x and they they don't parse the performance of the attorneys as much as we do. and i think this is one of the great things about the jury system is that i think the evidence actually matters a lot more than the performance of the lawyer for the person who does let's parse the lawyers is definitely trump. >> yeah. and i mean, if our friend arthur adalja was here, he would say trump and his other attorney, susan necheles, has way more experience in doing across then todd blanche, but once that moment happened, i was like, okay, that's why todd blanche i'm just doing

this cross-examination. >> he trump is a very you know, he likes to archetype people and just sort of put them in their categories i can imagine this is speculation, but i can only imagine him thinking, wanting to have somebody with the physicality of todd blanche, who is actually a very broad shouldered type of person to be able to do that kind of aggressive in your face, challenging of michael cohen that susan necheles is a incredible professional, but she's that's not how she conducts herself in her doing her job. >> and stylistically, it's a choice whether it will matter to the jury. i don't know, but it probably really matters. >> i think that's a high theater moment. >> and although jeffries correct to point out that it's still ultimately about facts, but high theater moments, people are human factor, not everything people when it comes to jury deliberations, in my experience, those are emotional moments in addition to facts gathering moments and theater

trials are theater after all, the theater matters, matters lawyers, without theater and you can go to sleep that's not a problem with his kano thank you so much. >> always we return with michael cohen's former attorney and current legal advisor, landing davis has taken whether his client dug a hole for himself or did well for himself. >> and also, it's taken get on the prosecution today going into the final stages of this trial will be right back what is circle? >> circle is which hole for a like tosses, limited way circle digital froth to treat for the sweet kick a confidence circle is the epr less entity that gets you in the zone available at walmart drinks circle.com. >> i've got good news is a murder. >> walking i'm sorry. what? >> she watches. a lot of true

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