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97% of burning uv rays. it's light, but it's working hard like me, neutrogena ultras yourself on screen. >> i'm zachary cohen and washington. and this is cnn hello and welcome to cnn special coverage of the closing arguments in former president donald trump's criminal hush money trial. >> i'm wolf blitzer in washington alongside abby phillip, who's outside the courthouse in new york a very consequential de, as we enter the home stretch of this truly historic trial korda's out now for lunch following a morning of blistering closing arguments by trump's defense team on surprisingly, trump attorney todd blanche made the case that payments made to michel cone the heart of the prosecution's charges were not illegal abbe over to you that's right. >> well, a blanche ripped into

potential pivotal testimony delivered by trump's former fixer and personal attorney repeatedly calling michael cohen a liar, whose words should not be trusted, and the claims that the alleged tryst between trump and adult film actress stormy daniels he implied that it never even happened. and one point, blanche told jurors you cannot convict president trump of any crime beyond a reasonable holdout on the words of michael cohen. so now that the defense has finished with its summation, the prosecution, they'll have their final word before jurors begin their deliberative patients were expecting that to begin in about an hour. so while we wait, let's bring in chief legal affairs correspondent paula reid and with us also as cnn national correspondent, kristen holmes ladies, i was just in the courtroom not that long ago listening to the vast majority of blanche's summations. and as a good defense attorney might do, the main thing that he was trying

to accomplish was just the state of the jury. you don't have to overthink this. this is really easy. you've got a liar on the stand. all of this is hinging on his word. and that's it. i mean it struck me that there wasn't an attempt to create some kind of smoking gun. the main thing was just to tell the jury, don't overthink it. it's right in front of your eyes? michael cohen as a liar, it took them a long time to get there though. i mean, as we laid out in our reporting before court started today, we expect that he was going to argue that the documents here there allegedly falsified or not false because michael cohen was working as an attorney. that's what he hit right off the bat. then at the end, he did really start to hammer, specifically michael cohen's credibility, calling him the mvp of wires, right? >> the greatest liar of all time of the globe had a lot of good leinz. >> but in between there wow, he got really deep the weeds talked about a lot of things like karen mcdougal app or catch and kill. >> the impact of the national enquirer on the election. a lot of things that maybe he could have touched on to undercut the way this was charged as a

felony, alleging it's conspiracy to help trump in 2016, but he did not have to spend a third of his time on a lot of these topics. so it was meandering, but eventually he got there focusing on really his thesis statement which is that you can't believe michael cohen. yeah. i mean, it was it didn't seem listening to it as an attempt to do death by 1,000 cuts by poking holes and all these different elements of it. part of the strategy of poking holes was also about this idea that there was even conspiracy to begin with he's sort of suggested, well, if there was a conspiracy between ami and donald trump and michael cohen while ami was a terrible partner in that conspiracy because they were willing to throw donald trump under the bus if that story about the love child turned out to be true so was that in your view something that was effective to suggest that maybe am i really wasn't well that in on it. >> i think part of what they're doing right now is trying to lay out back after fact, after fact about reasonable doubt and the reason being that i had

talked to a number advisers who do say that there is some concern or they are playing a little bit to the fact there are these two lawyers that are present on the jury. they want this to if case to be made to them directly, essentially saying they want kristen, i think we're having some issues with your microphone, though. let me know when that gets resolved. but in the meantime apala just picking up on what she's saying here. there are two lawyers in that jury box. if you try to make this the sort of open and shut, this so simple, you just can't trust this guy. go with your gut, does not work with those two lawyers know it's unlikely to work with these lawyers because this is also a complicated case, right? and they're going to understand that a lot of the things that you can type. leyen said, either just strained credulity, the argument that these hush money payments were not made to help trump when 2016, you don't have to be a lawyer to wonder if that's true. so it's just a little confusing as to why they spent so much time on things like the doorman, like karen mcdougal is

certain things that that came into evidence, why they spend so much time on that when the case is really going to be won or lost by putting distance between the defendant and the documents in question and under cutting michael cohen's credibility but this was really what we saw throughout the case, right? todd blanche would get there. >> he would land the occasional punch, but he's a long and winding path, particularly in the cohen, the on cross-examination, of stormy daniels cross-examination went on for so long when she is really well, she's a character at the heart of the story. >> she is not really a material witness that is going to can make or break this case for frost. i do. >> one thing about the todd blanche thing though, because this is something that donald trump actually really liked. we know that donald trump has a number of very contentious relationships with lawyers but he was raving about todd blanche over the weekend saying that him catching michael cohen and the library particularly about stealing the money from trump organization was a pivotal moment in the cave. he is ending this case despite the bob costello testimony and the back forth and there are two camps there some believe that it could affect them. others say it's not going to be a big deal, but he was actually

ending this case. any very good place with todd blanche to whatever the stylus is working with their client, which obviously we know is a huge part of being reasonable people can agree or disagree about how this is going for the defense. and specifically toddler but i think you're right, paula, there is a lack of narrative that unfolds when you listen to it, especially when you're in that courthouse, you can hear he's hitting a bunch of different points, but i'm not sure he's making a through line that's easy for the jury to follow. >> ladies, hold that thought for just a moment. >> i want to go to kara scannell. she just got out of the courthouses. they're taking their lunch break here kara the qarrah. what is new what was your impression of how this defense summation went down? the jury where they following where he was going with all of this i mean, i did see a number of the jurors their eyes pretty locked on todd blanche adjourned. >> thank his summation. i mean, sums had one person. it kind of had a half a smile on their

face another person's lips were purse for most of the closing arguments other jurors, their eyes were wondering during a bit, some looking down at the monitors on their screen where blanche put up some of the testimony to excerpts that he was citing to the jury as well as from the emails and the phone logs that who is using in his demonstration. so the juror is seem pretty attentive. it's very hard to read their faces, but they were paying close attention to what blanche was saying. throughout this multi our closing argument in donald trump was two at one point, he had turned his chair so that he was facing blanche and the jury as blanche was addressing them, blanche is at the podium. in which was slightly turned as well. so it appears that trump had a clear view of the jury as he was watching both his lawyer and the jury as they were hearing. blanche has arguments what of this was focused on michael cohen that he has blanche put it was the mvp aligher's, the gloat of liars, the greatest liar of all time, just really trying to underscore or why the jury could not convict donald trump based on michael cohen's words

alone and focusing the jury to other parts of the evidence that he is hoping that thank you. in his favor, such as david pecker being part of this alleged conspiracy, but saying that david pecker wanted nothing to do with the stormy daniels story, david pecker testified to that. and so saying, how could this be a conspiracy if one of the catch-and-kill deals that's at the center of it with something that david pecker wanted nothing to do with. so trying to raise questions in the minds of the jury, focusing in on them saying that michael cohen is the human embodiment of reasonable doubt, and that is why they should not convict based on his time. testimony, his words arguing that cohen lies about things big and small. he lives his family. he lies mostly for his own benefit. so a lot for the jury to digest over for this quick lunch break and then the prosecutors will have their turn to do their closing arguments. we are now expected to go later than the usual four 30 close today. exactly how it really depends on how long the prosecuting gutter goes, but the jury gave the thumbs up

that they would be willing to stay to hear this through the end today the prosecutor said he thought his closing could go four hours, but he also said he would react to what todd blanche said during his closing arguments. so we expect this will continue much later than court usually ends today. so the jury can hear arguments from both sides before they head home for the night and before the judge instructs them tomorrow, abbe all right kara scannell. >> thank you very much, paul and christian, you guys will stay with me. wealth over to you panel of experts to assess what's going on on this important de and elie honig, your senior legal analyst, what's your major takeaway so far from what we've heard today the defense closing started solid when he was talking about the documents that saying i can't tie them back to donald trump, i could get ended straw when he was attacking michael cohen. >> and i think the middle was just a bunch of mush they should have skipped. i think it was almost de dispense so much

time so deep in the weeds of karen mcdougal and doorman since 40 games get the back of the head, i think the way what i think todd blanche hopes that uri takes away from this is this. you cannot make this case about when i'm on level cohen and you can not trust that michael cohen got there. what he could have done it more powerfully, more succinctly. >> how are your williams is with us to a trump attorney, todd blanche, as you know, he seemed to be making some contradictory statements in the course of his arguments today. what do you make of that? >> once again, it's time for our daily reminder of the fact that we are at a great disadvantage by not having cameras in the courtroom because this is exactly the kinds of thing that jurors are assessing in real time. do they, number one, how are the house the jury reacting to this individual, the argument, but number two, what does this person look like as they're arguing, is he putting people to and so on. very important point that the state of new york puts the rest of america at a huge, disadvantage. and now a few things and picking up on some of the points that eliot made there's a lot time that todd blanche spent today

on things that they ought to have let go the affair, whether it happened spending any breath, denying whether it happened did not benefit their case. and any way. now, he made the argument that the prosecution nearly brought in my testimony, certainly daniel's so as two and ashes of maturity but don't go down that road. it's not a relevant fact i'm quite frankly, most people probably believed that it happened, so it's almost insulting to the jury in many ways, it was an odd argument to make. and the other thing that i'm struck by is there are a number of places where he used absolutes using arguments and i tried to stay away from this whenever i was arguing a case, there is not a shred of evidence that establishes blank well, there is a shred of evidence that establishes virtually everything in the case. now, the jury doesn't necessarily have have to believe it, but you lose credibility as a practitioner when you start saying absolutely yes or absolutely no, anything, i write it. everything comes down to whether the jury trust what they heard, but that doesn't

mean that they heard the evidence. if they didn't hear the evidence and they dead. it was there. it was presented by the prosecutor's. >> we heard todd blanche, the trump attorney, david chilean, talk about this idea of catch-and-kill. the catch and kill date. let me quote from what he said. you have decades, decades, decades of ami that's the company that owns the national enquirer doing exactly the same thing with respect to the stories, working with celebrities and politicians to promote campaigns. there are zero criminal intent in that 2015 meeting. what did you make that argument? >> well, i think this is part of the mush that elie was referring to section of a legal term summation. >> yeah, exactly because at the end of the day it's not really clear that the catch-and-kill scheme is part of the 34 counts here of the paperwork. >> and therefore, the additional crime campaign finance violation, if that's what jurors end up assessing here. i wouldn't say though that as we saw during the

testimony, not just in the summation, this whole notion that the defense team has been focused on it i'm making this stormy daniel scenarios just one of a normal order of business for a place like the enquirer. >> this this happens with celebrities, this happens with every they brought up arnold schwarzenegger they all of this was to try to convince the jury that there's nothing really to see here about the salacious stuff, the hush money the catch and kill the porn star that that is not part of what is going on here. so you see even in the summation, blanche, just trying to dismiss that as run-of-the-mill standard practice for a company like what i appreciate about what you're saying is it also plays into what we often hear from trump's supporters, which is that they may understand or may believe that he may be the unethical in some respects or certain behaviors they don't agree with, but there's a sense that everybody does it in

politics. everybody does this, everybody does that and he's just getting picked on because it's a witch-hunt in that way, it actually plays into something that's sort of like commonly held and discussed when people have talked about this case, in particular, that while it's unsavory is it illegal? and i realize there's a lot of evidence to be talked about in here, but as an overall theme, i actually don't find it all that while to say, or everybody standby, there's a lot more you need to assess this. a dramatic, very important day up next we'll ask a retired judge for their opinion on the closing arguments, at least so far, what those presentations could mean for the case against donald trump, lots going on, stay with us in one of the most active 22 seasons. you can't control what kinds of interventions can we design? go inside the store. >> premiere of violent birth within bm schreiber sunday at nine on cnn did you know you

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washington and this is cnn the judge overseeing donald trump's criminal hush money trial says he will give jurors a curative instruction about a quote outrageous comment in defense attorney todd blanche's closing argument, the judge, juan merchan not only called it highly inappropriate, but also said hi, there was quote, hard to imagine it was made in an accidental way. >> the key line from blanche was when he said this, let me quote. you cannot send someone to prison. you cannot convict somebody based upon the words of michael cohen, close quote the prosecution said it was a blatant and inappropriate attempt to get sympathy for trump. join me now, former florida judge, jeff swartz. judge, thanks so much for joining us. what did you make of that comment? do you think it was appropriate? >> i think that that blanche got kinda desperate towards the end. i think that he had to say

something like that to make his client happy. but when your whole case is based upon the tacking michael cohen in claiming that they can't convict. that's fine. you can say that but juries don't put people in jail. they don't put them in prison. they're not supposed to consider the penalty. they're only supposed to consider one thing, whether someone is guilty or not guilty of the charges and whether the state is proven their case. and he crossed the line beyond where he was supposed to go. >> this is the judge cross the line. just want to be precise. is that what you're saying? no, no, no blanche crossed the line when he says you can't put someone in prison but with the judge said it was highly the judge said it was highly inappropriate. was it a highly inappropriate? >> it was highly inappropriate. >> so you agree with the judge deserve sanctions. >> it could sanctions really. >> all right. i'll see what happens on that friend. what do you think has been the defense is strongest argument today?

>> their argument was basically what they said they had to do and that was they had to attack michael cohen i think that most of the closing argument was todd blanche basically saying you can't believe michael cohen, you can't believe anybody else in this case? just believe me. the problem is he's going to get hit and closing by the state saying todd blanche did not take an oath. todd blanche did not take the stand. todd blanche is not testifying. and as a result of which, you have to look to the evidence, which basically remains generally on contradicted that's basically the way they're going to attack it. i believe they went with the best thing they had going for them, but i certainly did not want to be todd blanche today getting up there and attacking the entirety of the state's case. that usually goes nowhere with the jury judge schwartz, what must the prosecution address in their summation after hearing the defense arguments i think they

have to do what they want. >> i think the anticipate doing. they're going to have to go through their case step-by-step in some detail, but not over bearing detail and bring themselves to the point of now talking about michael cohen because they have to, they're going to have to basically say michael cohen is a known liar. michael cohen committed some offenses the question isn't what he did in the past. the question is, do you believe what he said when he was on the stand and all the corroboration we've talked about supports that and then close when the attack on the closing argument, that todd blanche has given and say the evidence is clear beyond a reasonable doubt. that's the way they have to do their clothes. just very quickly as you know, trump is being charged 34 state felony criminal charges for falsifying documents, falsifying business records. that's the specific charge. did the prosecution make the case that trump is guilty? >> they presented a case

sufficient i think overwhelmingly the false records were created. the only issue i think that the jury's going to have to really struggle with is did he do it to help himself in the election, or did he do it to protect his family? >> and right now, we really don't have any evidence that says that the main thrust of this was to protect his family for whatever the reasons are, no one has been able to put that really in the record. >> and as a result of which i don't know where the jury can go other than not guilty or guilty, there's nothing in-between. they're not gonna be given that choice. so the evidence clearly it to me, indicates you did it for the election, but that's up to the jury and that's going to be up to two lawyers to make up their mind whether that really counts. and without that really is the basis of a felony. if they agree with each other the verdict will be guilty or not guilty depending on where they go. >> the only other option is a hung jury if they split the two juror, the two lawyers, i think

are the key jurors in this case. >> we will see what happens that will be critical indeed to convict you dater, unanimous decision by the 12 members of the jury to a quick kennedy unanimous decision also, if there's one or two jurors who who changed who have a different position than it is a hung jury. and then they have to decide what they do. next, judge. jeff swartz. thank you very much for your expertise. >> you're welcome. thank you. >> so how is the jury responding to these closing arguments so far we're going to speak to a jury consultant about that. that's coming up next. our special coverage of the closing arguments in this criminal hush money trial of donald trump is back after a quick break the nba playoffs, i always get emotional. you more concerned about what's going on? on inside the nba than what's going on inside. uh, you, you know, doc, right? and that's all the time we have. thanks for watching. are you cutting to a commercial western conference finals presented by at&t, continue on to you need

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captioning is brought to you by you, ucar help maintain a healthy urinary tract with you, cora, having uti for ten years, you cora, we make uti relief products. >> we also make proactive here coronary tracks health product, you core is a life's to try today at your core.com you're watching cnn special live coverage of the closing arguments in the first criminal trial of a former president in about a half an hour, prosecutors are going to deliver their closing arguments. >> cnn's kristen holmes thompson, paula reid are back with me right now. kristen, notably right. as we are speaking, don junior, i want to trump's adult sons. he's at the microphone speaking. they were in court today, sitting behind their father, don junior, eric trump, and tiffany trump, as surprising addition, what do you make of children who have showed up here? notably not ivanka trump. will start with you how to shut us a daunting you're seeing because the reasonably shut up to to court days plus because he was

recovering from knee surgery. we know the donald trump junior has so show on rumble and he has been talking about the case incessantly. so that's our kind of defense for it is surprising to see you, tiffany trump, who usually try to stay away from this stuff there with her husband. but no snow doubly, as you said no imagery, nothing from jared and ivanka. now, this is not that surprising given the fact that a wonka said in 2022, right before donald trump announced that he will be running again. >> essentially, said that she was not going to be involved. she cited her children. she said that this was not something that she wanted to be a part of and they have really stuck with that. and i'm behind the scenes. >> derek kosher has dawn song's stuff with the trump campaign, but i'm told that one, she is really focusing on her children and she and jared, we're really off resized from their social life after she left the white house, something that mattered them. remember, they moved down to florida. they don't really want to relive that at this point. >> that's so interesting and especially given they both worked in the white house, they were the two family members who were perhaps the most involved in the politics at this time at this very period that we were

talking about in this case but paul, i want to talk to you about something that you and i thought it was really extraordinary. i would argue this was the weakest moment for todd blanche today. this is where he's talking about the impact of the national enquirer sure. and what a bad story or good story might do for donald tropic that showed up in that paper. here's what he says. the idea, even if there was something wrong with it, the idea that sophisticated if people like president trump and david pecker believed that positive stories, the national enquirer could influence the 2016 election is preposterous i mean, frankly, it's preposterous to think that just the idea that a nationally enquirer story of itself is about how many people are picking up the national enquirer. this is the age of the internet. >> absolutely. in an a digital age, specifically in 2016, positive stories about trump, negative stories about his adversaries, political opponents, or being amplified on social media. this was before really anyone had a lot of awareness about disinformation campaigns.

>> there was also an army of russian bots that was trying to help him pumping these out. particularly negative stories about hillary clinton. i remember that those anything would just be amplified again and again, again. so even if you were magazine only as a circulation of a few hundred thousand, i mean, those stories could be seen by millions and millions of people, but even trump believed in the power of the enquirer. he, he planted stories about his police political opponents in the primary ted cruz and others. >> obviously, and donald trump has long been a fan of the acquirer and believe that it has an enormous breach despite the fact that maybe 50,000, but particularly as he said in 2016, it wasn't 350,000, maybe circulating, but online. everything was being amplified. i will know that melania trump also at the time, read the national enquirer. so it was somewhat of a family affair in more ways than one. >> yeah. i mean, they love their new yorkers through and through. they trump believed and believes then the power of the tabloid. but let's get a jury consultant on what the jury might have thought of. all of these arguments, allen

tuerkheimer is with us. allen so todd blanche was trying to get the jury on multiple fronts, trying to undermine the central premise that there was a conspiracy that this was about the election that michael cohen ought to be believed what do you think that they took away from all those different points being thrown at them in one two-and-a-half-hour session i think it was a bit of an overreach by the defense during the closing. >> i think they they shot too high and i think it was a good closing with the emphasis on michael cohen's credibility, what it was a little scattershot. i think jurors probably picked up on that in a closing. you want to be very concise so you want to hit your main beams. i think it was too gimmicky with the top ten list and some of the slogans that were used about greatest liar of all time and nvp of liar. jurors don't usually like that type of characterization. and i also think about an hour would have get a nice amount of time, maybe a little more to give

your closing argument. i think that exceeding that probably cause some jurors to tune out a little bit and become distracted he seemed to also be playing on the jury's desire, perhaps to get the heck out of there, and they've been out of court for about a week probably enjoying their lives, spending time with their families. >> he repeated to them, this should be easy. you should be able to come to a quick conclusion on this. is that too much pressure or the right? in amount of pressure to put on the jury to get to maybe the conclusion that he thinks might be the easiest for them to reach it. he wants it to be not guilty he's giving an invitation to some of the jurors to be done with this quickly, but they can just as easily be given give a guilty verdict in the same fashion. >> so i think it's something defense lawyer say, and i think at this point it's really about advocacy in the deliberation closings are not really really about persuasion, but trying to get those few

jurors that are on your side once the end of the deliberation, then you want them to make those arguments to try to convince other jurors? i think that's what's ultimately going to happen here. i think you missed the mark on a few opportunities to do to do that, but it was it was somewhat effective and i think he did a good job. it was not stellar clark wasn't outstanding, but he did what he had to do if you were doing this and consulting with this defense team what would you have advised them to focus on the most, what do you think is their best opportunity to convince this jury that there is reasonable doubt that's all all they need at this point right? i would have gone through the actual verdict questions and i think the prosecution should do the same because sometimes jurors come into the deliberation. they there feeling a certain way. but then when they look at the questions they really scrutinized and i meant i would have gone through them and i would would've said this is why at each at each word or each sentence, while you have i have to say not guilty, but i do think that the michael cohen

trashing was what they had to do, and i think they did that. it's just they introduced all these other elements that i think might be distracting for the jurors as a set out to deliberate, it's much easier to just focus on one thing, peace to save, make your arguments and then about the jury, take it from there and to the frustration of the defendant, donald trump the prosecution is going to have their opportunity to basically redirect the jury, refocus their mind and that's how new york law works. >> but that is what's going to happen in this afternoon session that we are anticipating alan turkey, i'm or thanks very much for all those insights thank you, abby. >> good to see you and our coverage of the closing arguments in the criminal hush money trial of donald trump is back after a quick break. >> we're waiting for the prosecution to enter their final arguments. stay with us the russian for trying to spot now on us, we were spying on them i was hadi friday this is

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logo, or start your design today had custom make.com this is cnn the world's news closing arguments of donald trump's historic criminal hush money trial will resume after the court returns from a lunch break prosecutors are expected to take around for hours by experts are back with us, write down and let me start elie with you. what do think by the length of time at least so far we heard from the trial defense team. they're closing arguments and now we're gonna here several hours from the prosecution, a too long and way to lock that todd blanche took almost three hours this morning, did not need it, could have easily cut out the middle portion, the middle hour or so juries are human beings. they start to lose focus even with the mid-morning break you cannot lose their attention. you don't need three hours to close on the defense side, four hours, maybe four-and-a-half.

steinglass said on the da side, i think is a big mistake if i was him right now, i would be cutting down. i know it hurts. we prosecutors get attached to our evidence. we fall in love with the things that we want to say. but man, trust me, if he cuts out the week just one hour of that closing, it will be better a good way to think about it is think about the last time you went to the movies and watched a three-hour film, it just doesn't happen. and those are entertaining shows about whether it's monsters or aliens or spaceships are the kinds of films that i want to watch four hours is very long time to keep people's attention, particularly after lunch they can do it and it's a complex case. and in some regards, itself to jump in somehow is just like a normal dune two, which was three hours long remember, you're also conveying an atmosphere in a story around a narrative and because we're not in there, we can't actually get a sense of how he is carrying them along that story may not feel like three hours we were talking during the break about the idea

of bulleted reasons not to trust michael cohen. >> that was one point of blanche's closing arguments and you guys were saying ten is too many and i was like bullets are helpful when you're taking notes. so it's one caveat to think about is we don't actually have right here in this moment and understanding of how he's using his voice, whether he is able to carry the story, whether he's punctuating certain things that he wants to stick in their mind, and whether part of it is a very typical full trump aura defense of all things which is to flood the zone with information and try to make the things you want to stick, stick. >> what do you think the political impact will be from the verdict, whatever the verdict is guilty, not guilty. hung jury, the political impact for trump's reelection bid, for example, i mean, one way to think about it is it's not the 90s. this isn't the oj simpson murder trial the idea that we're going to have some big national moment over this is probably a bit of a stretch. the numbers just don't show

that people are even paying attention to this trial on that same scale. and therefore, i think we should temper our expectations about what that means in terms of political consequences in fact, what we'll probably end up doing is looking at specific voter groups to see if it affects their decision one way or another. but i don't think this is the kind of moment i grew up, like we watched trials, rodney king, et cetera in class. i don't think this is what this is. >> where do you think in terms of which aspect of it though in terms of a verdict, whatever the verdict is, will it impact trump's reelection? but oh, i don't know. again, it's hard to say. i only a mat most people seem somewhat but locked in about their opinions about donald trump, whether it's folks four and folks against it remains a really open question as to how many folks there are in that undecided middle if you want to call it that who might be swayed one way or another

very quickly. i'll ask you what to ask, judge schwartz, 34 state criminal charges, felony criminal charges, or have been leveled against trump for falsifying business records falsifying business documents. did the prosecution make the case 34 felony criminal charges? yes. there's enough evidence there from which a reasonable jury could absolutely come back guilty. i'm not saying they will or should, but had they cleared the bar, the prosecutors that they need to to get this case to the jury absolutely. the defense is trying to just take out one of the legs of the stool, create some reasonable doubt, but yes, the prosecution has carried its burden and a reasonable jury could come out either way in this, we just don't know. >> can i ask one other question? you said prosecutors have met their bar, but has the defense created well enough doubt, just conceptually down, i'll give the same answer. i think there's enough in the defense case and closing where a reasonable juror could say, i don't trust michael cohen. that's it. >> game over. so we're within the realm of reasonable outcomes, either way here, you

are. >> i do. >> and one of the there's an open question as to how the judge might rule on a motion for essentially directing the verdict, saying that there is so little evidence in the record that i ought to move out to just put an acquittal here. judges can do that. that's highly unlikely here for the reasons that that lie sort of pointed out here, there is evidence in the record now, again, the jury does not have to believe all of it and audience question. certainly there's doubt poked about the integrity of the evidence they even questioned the integrity of a recording, the credibility of michael cohen's, so it could go either way. but there's a completely plausible outcome in either direction that there's an acquittal on jury or a conviction. all right. everybody standby were right now. we're less than 15 minutes away from the prosecution's start of its closing. arguments are special live coverage of the criminal hush money trial of donald trump is back after a quick break check. we hear nothing

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their time in there that they have been part of a political game as new yorkers. i'm pretty sure they're going to be upset about it. >> here to discuss this now as cnn's presidential historian tim naftali, tim great to see you. this is another history. torque moment for donald trump and one that actually is quite sad, honestly for the country to have a former president sitting in a criminal trial when you take stock of the consequences of this trial, regardless of the verdict that the jury will reach how do you see it i'm abroad at the moment and i've been thinking about the effect on our position in the world if it convicted felon, if the president, former president's found guilty, and the american people reelect him. >> what kind of signal that would send around the world about the state of our institutions mike send the signal that in the united

states corruption is king and the king is corrupt so if the prep, former president is found guilty, i think that'll have a negative very negative effect on our ability to act as a source of stability around the world should he read turn to the white house there's also the issue of donald trump's conduct throughout this trial his comments about about the case, about the judge, about the judicial system, what impact has that had on this country's history of respecting frankly the rule of law again, just as the verdict may affect our ability to act around the world in a positive way the verdict may affect our institutions at home if donald trump is in any way sanctioned or penalized for his behavior, is behavior back in 2016 and

2017 then people will take the lesson that you should not act that way you should not disrespect our judicial system. on the other hand should former president trump? be acquitted or more likely there be a hung jury? people might say, you, it doesn't matter. you should act that way in america and others will learn because many people do learn from those in powerful positions. and then we can expect more people to disrespect our judicial hello system. and for it to weaken over the next few years you alluded to this a little earlier, but i think the whole country said, now this week start to come to terms with the fact that it is possible that there could be a convicted felon running for office. >> it is also possible that that person could be elected president of the united states it's how if voters are waking up to that reality tell us how

you think that they should think through that and think about the pack that that will have on american history. frankly i'd like to handle that in two different ways. i don't want to tell the american people how to vote. >> it's not up to me but what i'd like the american, i'd like fellow americans to think about the conduct you want from the person and who could be representing our country once again in january who is or would be our head of state, our commander in chief who is not everything in our country. the president isn't everything but who some extended bodies us and so i think americans should think about whether they care about the conduct of that person. so the trial in many ways is an opportunity to revisit some elements of the former president's persona he may be acquitted of the connection between the election and the hush money. but the evidence is very strong that

there was a hush money conspiracy. so regardless of the outcome of the trial, americans have to take into consideration that one of two men who could possibly be president next year was involved in a conspiracy to hotshot to hush up a sexual adventure tim naftali, we appreciate your perspective, your his doric perspective on all of this. >> thank you very much and stay with us. the prosecution will present their closing arguments any moment now, our coverage of the chorman it all hush money trial of donald trump is back after this quick break okay, everyone, our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition for strength and energy ensure with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health, and ensure complete with 30 grams of crime consumer cellular. this is sam palmy, healthier this is a but

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proven to significantly reduce joint pain stiffness or symptoms or if you had a vaccine, are planning to emerge as you emerge trim fired. >> ask your doctor about trump via violin earth with liev schreiber premiere sunday at nine on cnn welcome back to our special live coverage. i'm abby phillip, outside of the courthouse in new york city alongside wolf blitzer in washington. and in just moments, prosecutors will begin their closing arguments in the first criminal trial of a former president, donald trump before the lunch break, jurors heard from trump's attorney making their final case. the

defense insisting that trump was not part of a scheme to cover up a 2016 hush money payment to adult film actress stormy daniel's. that was according to the prosecutors, to influence the 2016 election, something the defense has denied they also claimed that efforts to suppress unflattering media stories were, quote, standard procedure for someone running for office. now, attorney todd blanche said, quote, this is a campaign. this is an election. this is not a crime the defense also tried to once again bulldoze the credibility of the prosecution's star witness, trump's former fixer and attorney michael cohen, saying trump is a victim of cohen's extortion, and i'm quoting now, you cannot convict president trump of any crime beyond a reasonable doubt on the words of michael for cohen, close quote cnn senior legal analyst elie honig is over at the magic wall for us. >> elie, what do you expect to hear from the government's case while off the prosecution

is about to have the last word in this case. this is the way it works under new york law. the prosecution bears the burden of proving its case beyond a reasonable doubt. they get to go last week suspect that the prosecution's jury address will be given by josh steinglass, a veteran ada alvin bragg, the de has been in the courtroom today. he will not be speaking directly to the jury. now, the prosecution's task is to tell a coherent, compelling story and they're going to start with the indictment. they're going to remind the jury this case is about falsifying business records since there are 34 counts in this case, one for each ledger entry invoice, and check and what they're gonna do here is try to make it simple as many legal elements as there are here. the prosecution is going to say it all boils down to two things. one, the donald trump falsified business records and to diddy have a campaign motive. so let's start with the first part of that fall falsifying the business records. now the prosecution is going to try to tell as neat and linear a story as they can. and really the starting point here is this august 2015 meeting in trump tower

involving donald trump, michael cohen, the star witness, david pecker from the national enquirer and hope hicks, and the prosecution is going to argue what happened there as they decided. let's do our best to try to promote donald trump's candidacy through the national enquirer. and what followed from there was a series of what we've called catch and kill scheme starting in 2015 when ami, the national enquirer, paid off and doorman $30,000 august 2016, there was a payment to karen mcdougal who allegedly had an affair with donald trump leading up to the access hollywood tape which dropped just about a month before the election, october 2016. and we heard testimony that this caused panic in the trump campaign. and then shortly thereafter, stormy daniels emerges. she gets paid $130,000 just a week or so before the elections. so the timing is going to be really important here. as it relates to the prosecution. now the prosecution is going to lay out the actual payoff to stormy daniels. remember, first, michael cohen paid stormy daniel's $130,000 of his own

money. he took a loan out on his mortgage and then later and this is where the crime comes in. michael cohen was reimbursed $420,000 from donald trump and trump's organizations. now, a key piece of testimony i expect the prosecution to feature michael cohen. here's michael cohen tying donald trump to the crime. cohen testified he meaning trump, he expressed to me, just do it go meet up with allen weisselberg, the cfo, and figure the whole thing out. now, an important point, the process secretion is going to address the attacks of michael cohen. watch for this, they're going to say, you don't have to take michael cohen's word because he's backed up by documents just a couple of those key documents count on the prosecution featuring these handwritten notes, which show how michael cohen and allen weisselberg came up with the $420,000 figure and count on the prosecution featuring the actual invoices which say retainer. that's the gist of the crime. the prosecution argued it was not a legal retainer, and the checks, some of which nine of the 11 of

which were signed by donald trump himself. and then finally wolf to the last element that campaign motive. look for the prosecution to feature testimony like this piece from hope hicks, who was a friendly witness to donald trump. hope hicks testified, i think there was consensus among all of us that the tape was damaging and that this was a crisis. i think mr. trump's opinion is it would be better to be dealing with it now and it could have been bad to have that story. the stormy daniels story, come out before the elections. so that's how the prosecution is going to try to simplify this case. it's all about the business records and the campaign motive wealth. the states could not possibly be higher any minute now it looks like the prosecution is about to make its closing address to the jury will be listening and watching and see what happens on this front. elie, thank you very much, abby, back to you thanks. >> well, but i want to catch everyone on what's been going on in the courthouse. they just resumed proceedings there at the judge dealing with some some real issues in terms of housekeeping, but where they left off they had really gotten

into a dispute with the defense attorney about the use of a particular the killer word that the judge objected to strongly paula and kristen are with us back here, but paula, this idea that trump could go to prison was mentioned by todd blanche, the judge didn't buy that it was an accident. he thought it was completely out of bounds. they have now dealt with it. he here's what he said. you cannot send someone to prison, you can not convict someone based upon the words of michael cohen, struck from the record, but now the judge has said he's going to give some curative instructions to jury instructions about how the jury is going to deal with those comments. >> the reason this is so third rail is because or the jury is not going to sentence the defendant if he is convicted, and the judge suggested that this was part of an effort to elicit sympathy, potentially four, for the defendant so that's why this is such an issue. they should not be bringing this up because this

is not the jury's job right now to decide whether or not someone goes to prison, their job is to look at the facts and the law and decide whether this is an acquittal or if this is a conviction that's their task and has nothing to do with sentencing. and that's why prosecutors objected and the judge agreed it's going to give a curative instruction. yeah. and the jury is now entering the courthouse once again. the prosecution is going to have an opportunity to give their closing arguments, but i want to revisit one thing. kristen, because we heard elie honig talking about it there. this idea of the retainer was also something that judge merchan was asking both parties how he should deal with. he ultimately decided that he was not going to give the jury instructions questions about what the law is regarding how an attorney can be retained by a client. but the reason this matters, putting aside the legalities of it is that trump's team wants to argue that michael cohen was acting as a lawyer, that he was providing legal services, and that he did have a a verbal retainer how significant is

well, it's incredibly significant because that's what they've been trying to do since the beginning. essentially saying that none of these were fraudulent payments, that none of this has to cover anything up that michael cohen was actually doing work for donald trump. >> now michael cohen testified himself that he wasn't really working, doing any legal work for donald trump. but what you saw the defense du was point out a couple of instances that he was was actually doing some work not just for former president, but also for his family at one point, you saw them point out the fact that he had helped negotiate melania trump's contract with madame tussauds wax museum at another point, he had michael cohen list out all of the members of the family that he had done some work for and again, in passing a note or showing a note to allen weisselberg you michael cohen writing in it, the call me about the trump organization issue that i want to talk to you about. what they've tried to do is say that this was essentially a quote unquote retainer, even though there was no actual retainer in writing to say that these payments were legitimate. and of course, they are legitimate. there is no crime what do you make of that argument? >> because because i mean,

ultimately this is about falsifying business records and the trump team is saying there were no false business records at all how is the jewelry going to take into consideration these diametrically opposed theories of the case about what happened here so if michael cohen is the one submitting these falsified invoices, right. >> and we know that part of the money that he's receiving as many that he stole from the trump organization the trump team is arguing, look, there's no direct connection to the defendant creating are forcing these to be falsified. now, prosecutors will argue that trump this all in motion. he might not have specifically said, look, jeff mcconney, choose this from the drop-down menu, but he was the one who set this whole plan, this whole alleged conspiracy in motion. now right now, the judge is saying, in your deliberations, you may not discuss, consider, or even speculate matters related to punishment. so that is a curative instruction. his giving them now for the comment that the defense attorneys made

before about sending potentially trump to present because again, that's not the job of the jury. and one of the concerns of charge more shot and probably the prosecution as well is that they're trying to raise the bar for the jury to think about. what would you really send someone to prison? over this clever, but out of bounds one of the things we know, this is something we have heard from lawyers time and time again. >> it isn't possible to put the toothpaste back in the tube, he already said the words prison. now, the judge said that he find it hard to believe that was an accident it seems unlikely todd blanche has been doing this for a long time, but of course, who knows, we're not in the courtroom, were not in his brain, but as we've heard, even if you strike it from the record that is now in their head and that is exactly what they want. >> they want the jury looking at this in terms of the most severe punishment, saying, would you want to send this former president to jail or to prison over this issue? >> and it was a new way. they were also trying to frame a credibility attack on michael cohen, asking jurors would you want to be the one who went to prison or was punished based on

the word of this man. >> it was a new way that they were trying to attack michael cohen's credibility by instead of listing previous lies, framing it for the jury, for that, like put yourself in the defendants shoes. >> would you want your fate relying on the word of the sky? yeah. the top task for the prosecution in these next several hours and it could be up to four hours. here is gonna be to rehabilitate their core witness we're going to take a quick break here, but there's a lot going on. the prosecution is now giving the closing summations. this is their final word in this case it's expected to last for hours. we're just getting into it. stay with us. cnn special live coverage i'm trump's hush money trial will continue after a short break sirens are going off and the tornado here i'm thinking i'm going and die. >> and i thought that was it. >> earth with liev schreiber, premiere sunday at nine on cnn.

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kinda riva support your brain health. >> married janet. hey eddie, know, fraser, franck. franck, brad, how are you brad fuel up to seven brain health indicators, including your memory, joined the neretva brain health challenge. chasing life with dr. sanjay gupta. listen wherever you get your podcasts welcome back to our special live coverage of closing arguments in the trump hush money criminal trial, the prosecution has just begun making its final case. >> let's discuss with our panel of legal and political experts and laura coates, euro, chief legal correspondent or cnn anchor, as you know, judge merchan. and he's very well highly respected admonished the trump defense attorney todd blanche, just a little while ago as he was wrapping up saying a comment about trump being sent to prison to prison was outrageous. direct quote. and highly inappropriate what's your reaction to that? >> it is in fact, both of those things remember that the job of

the jurors are as quote, unquote fact finders. their job is to determine acquittal or conviction. it is the job of the judge to actually sent in someone imagined he well, this was not a felony case or resulted in a maximum 20-year penalty or 1.5 to four years. for charge. >> this the death penalty case. >> if you have a juror going back thinking themselves, gosh, du i want to be responsible for this person's life to end or this person to have this particular policy, it could cloud their judgment, no longer having to meet the burden of proof for the prosecution, but instead once feelings and emotional motions towards the person, you can't have that happen and as a former prosecutor, todd blanche knows there's quite well, he would've been on his feet had this actually been defense council having a similar argument? >> i've also the david pecker assessment has been called utterly by the prosecutor in this case, who is going first per new york, pretty uk law. now they're gonna go through methodically all the different aspects of this case. well, if because they have to prove their burden of proof, they have to just not go and undermine the defense, but actually summarized for the

jury all that happened over the past four weeks. and one thing they cannot have the jury thinking about is a sentence joshua steinglass, the district attorney is making the case for the prosecution right now and the closing arguments we're watching this very, very closely. elie, what was your main takeaway from todd blanche, the trump lawyer from his closing argument. >> well, i have my stylistic criticisms. i think you should have shortened it. i think the middle was meandering, but ultimately his argument came down to, you cannot trust michael cohen, you cannot convict beyond a reasonable doubt based on michael cohen. and we have as expected, the ada just a couple of moments what's ago said, quote, you don't need michael cohen to prove that, to prove the case one bit. so predictably, the de a and i would make this argument to if i was then would say, you don't have to take michael cohen's word, look at the documents, look at the phone call records, look at all the other evidence that corroborates him and ultimately that's to me the key battleground here. >> elliott, i'm curious to get your thoughts four hours, they're expecting the closing

arguments from the prosecution. four hours. >> four hours to be a long time. now, again, they have a lot of information to present as adi had said, in the last hour, it all depends on how compelling of a speaker the speaker is, how well he's structures as arguments and so on. now, i what i imagined prosecutors will do is stick to the law where the defense and their job is to muddy the waters a little bit. the prosecution has a very simple burden, and quite frankly joshua steinglass started out today by saying in a very pithy way, this is about a conspiracy and a cover-up it's a simple, pithy four or five word encapsulation of the case and then walking through it we talked about this on the situation room last week, wolf, where cicero, what's go back to the classics, had a very simple way that many prosecutors, even today, structure their arguments. you lay out your argument, you rebut the opponent's argument. you returned turn to your argument and then close and get out of there. now that may take four hours. maybe it could be shorter, maybe it could be longer, but if it's organized

well and he's sticks to what the jury is there to do. he could be quite successful. >> david jargon, a lot of us notice that several members of trump's family were in the courtroom today watching all of this unfold what the strategy here, some numbers were not in the courtroom balls that we noticed that strategy here is you've seen throughout the weeks of this trial, donald trump has had political supporters show up at times he's had family members show up. his campaign management team has shown up for all for support, but i think in this image these hours now as the case is about to be handed over to the jury and everybody is going to wait through this liberation for this historic verdict of a first-time ever former president being on being charged here with a crime you see more in force from his family. so there's the more sort of like human emotional support for the man at the defendant's table even though we have not seen his wife,

melania trump in court, or a jared or ivanka in court, but we do see today tiffany trump and don junior and eric trump in court of his adult children. one could imagine why his wife, me and i wanted to be showing up to this thing, laura, the prosecutor, joshua steinglass, and making the arguments to closing arguments for the prosecution acknowledges the stormy daniel's is one of those witnesses who want to see trump convicted. we are seeing a theme here through the prosecution's now case. we've also heard him say mr. pecker has absolutely no reason to lie here. he still considers mr. trump a friend and mentor, yet his testimony was really devastating. he says that pecker's testimony, quote, eliminates the whole notion that this was politics six as usual. and you don't need cohen to testify to actually prove it, and then he also acknowledges to your point well, to be sure he says some witnesses want to see trump convicted. they've attacked him, they've been taught by on social media and beyond, but they're trying to essentially

do what they did throughout the trial. remember michael cohen was the last witness for the prosecution. they had all these people who were testifying to pre corroborate to suggest whether his hope hicks, are david pecker or rhona graff who is the assistant of the trump and others to suggest they all can't be a part of the murder on the orient express. they can't all be guilty here. again, all be corrupt or i'm in some way bias they always talk about to be sure there were parts of her testimony that were in fact cringeworthy. well, that's an understatement giving that to visualize essential encounter with the former president and her as well. but this is all them trying to suggest and summarize to the jury, watson michael cohen? yes. does he have some sort of a credibility issue? a big one absolutely. does that mean that the documents don't speak for themselves? are that everyone was essentially in on it. that can't be the case. >> that's the argument they're making absolutely. >> it's interesting going back to todd blanche's argument where he said, you can't convict a defendant on the basis of michael cohen's testimony i'd agree with that.

i think most people would once you can't convict a defendant on as the basis of michael cohen's testimony and checks and ledgers, and notes and so on. it's the idea that everything rises and falls on one witness divorced from all other evidence is just not accurate and a good point here you do go back to what they're saying in the courtroom, right now. joshua steinglass says, look, the talking about stormy daniels, her story is messy. it makes people uncomfortable to hear. it probably makes some of you uncomfortable, but that's kind of the poem. point that's what the defendant did not want the american people to see. so rather than talk about this as a factual predicate, he essentially saying the story, whether it's true or not, although they say it's true or not, is what you would try to avoid having come after access hollywood days before the election, the political straw that might break the camel's back and steinglass says some of the details of stormy daniels story ring true, like what trump's sweet look like, and the contents of his toiletry bag. so they're trying to explain here the prosecution

why they went into such detail with the stormy daniels testimony with stormy daniels testimony about the sexual encounter about what happened in the hotel room, even the detail as are noting now that she looked inside the toiletry bag, they're arguing the prosecutors, that's not just to be prurient, that's not just to shame the president that's because they're arguing that detail shows you that she's telling the truth and she is here in the simplest terms, stormy daniel's is the motive. >> so this is an important part of the narrative that they're trying to craft. they're trying to argue this story was so devastating and embarrassing that trump had every reason to try to quiet her up and cover it up. >> the powerful thing about going last as the prosecution is that you can throw out a statement like she looked in his garden, his cosmetic bag and saw that he had what was it? a brute and old spice or whatever else because the defense would certainly rebut that saying, well, some of her memories were shaky. she doesn't quite remember the things she saw in there. the defense doesn't have an opportunity to do that, and that's that's a very good argument for prosecution is just to put out, prosecutors are making the case now that michael cohen is understandably

angry, that to date, that he's the one who paid the price for his role in this conspiracy. joshua steinglass. >> and of course point excuse me. >> well, and of course, you don't want to i mean, there's a moment when you could get a little bit problematic if you're the prosecution this case if this were say, a federal case where you've got the prosecution going first, the defense going next, and then being able to rebut or if the reverse was ever to be the case, which is not and the defense having a second by at the apple, you'd be curious and cautious about opening a particular door. here you just had the prosecution saying, essentially that the only talking about motive, but trump wouldn't pay $130,000 twice that after it was granted pre-tax is just because took a photo with someone on a golf course. now remember they don't have to prove that there was ever a sexual encounter. all they need to suggest is that there was an incentive by a candidate for office who did not want a story to come out and you go on to say, then they moved on within 20 minutes. they've moved on to now, michael cohen, think about how

different that was from the defense case where the bulk of two-and-a-half-hours of their statement was all about this and instead, they're talking about how michael cohen, he is understandably angry that to date he is the one, one who's paid the price for his role in this conspiracy? see and anyone in cohen chooses want to defend to be held accountable. that is different than what the defense has had to say in this case, which suggests instead no, he doesn't want to be the only one even though he's the only one who is involved, he wants trump to go down because he also has guilty. >> he went to jail as a result of all of this for perjury, for lying under oath. that was his decision. and i think this is another one of those powerful arguments that prosecution can make. that's not going to be rebutted a big argument that the defense had hung their hat on is that michael cohen is so prejudiced against the defendant based on the fact that he's gone to jail and he's you know, he's lying i on behalf of the defendant and so on here they provide an explanation for it, which is that ladies and gentlemen anyone would have wanted to see the defendant go to jail on the basis of this here. well, and as you saw there, when it cohen

did trump's bidding for years and when it went bad, the defendant cut him loose. >> you see what? what the prosecutors are doing here. they're trying to take it a conversation about michael cohen's character that the defendants de was want and move it onto trump's character in this in this case, even though again, that his character is not at the core of the charges here, but you see in the summation, what they, what they're trying to do to deflect away from that very strong finish, i would say in terms of how the defense was, just leaving in the jury's mind, michael cohen is not to be trusted here. >> clearly right out of the gate, moved quickly, as laura noted from stormy, daniel's on here to start rehabilitating the value of michael cohen and the mind the jurors as a part of this sunday, the prosecution is trying to doing a very minor point that just came up a moment ago that the prosecution is only referring to the former president as the defendant that that's an important tactic in trials the defense will often speak about the defendant in

terms of his first name here, his first name or mr. president? >> prosecution will only refer often to the defendant as the defendant you want to plant a seed in the jurors eyes that either he's this bad person who's on trial, or he's a human being who's being persecuted by the state level. >> there's this meta context around it, which is that of course he's the former president and that this is actually an unprecedented proceeding. if you want to level that playing field it's probably helpful to refer him referred to him as defendant and not the former president, et cetera. >> there's an audience. it's clear that so many of these allegations involving trump were taking place just before the 2016 presidential election. so there was a political motive that the prosecution claims was going on. >> yeah. and it was very very interesting to see or to hear the reporting that they spend some time talking about stormy daniels, the story itself saying and maybe messy, it may be, it may make you uncomfortable. that's kind of the point that he would not

want the american people to here this kind of story even if they vaguely knew about the story, to hear it in this kind of detail just before the election, i think that's hard to remember in an era when we feel like there's no scan handle anymore, like nothing can really take a candidate down that we used to have something called the october surprise when something happened that was such a big scandal with throw everything off and you had access hollywood. we thought that might be it. and at the time there was this sense of like could there be something else? could there be other allegations? so it's asking the jurors to go back in time and remember what that atmosphere was like. those of us who thought that access hollywood video yeah. disqualifying somehow didn't there's an important point that's being raised now, which is so crucial that everyone was talking about the idea that michael cohen stole from the trump organization by essentially padding this amount of money that was for your paid by a polling entity that was trying to buttress to credibility of trump in the public's eyes and they, the prosecutor talks about this ratio we're they are

very criticized for not having fronted it more fulsomely in front of their direct. >> and he says that look, that we he should have had an that dealing. we agree. it's true. he was never charged with that. he's also the one talking about cohen who brought it to everyone's attention. but he goes on to talk about how it's none of this matters because it's not a defense to false business charges to if you say one of the conspirators is also guilty of dealing from another. so again, this is the benefit of when you're the person to be able to make the final and have the final say this was not fronted for what fell is two hours or more in the actual defense's case, they didn't bring up at all. in fact, that michael cohen had been stealing in some capacity. and the fact that he was the one to now bring it up in the actual memory, perhaps at the jurors is now going to be important. this redirects the jury's attention to why we're here, falsified business records, not why the people who were involved are problematic. >> there's three primary

weaknesses that michael cohen has three fundamental weaknesses, and we've already seen steinglass than the first 20 minutes or so of this jury address, tried to bolster them, try to reinforce michael cohen on all but one. he's a liar. he said, well, look at all the other evidence, look at all the other documents to his biased and what the de has said is, of course these bias he served time in part for this anyone in that position would feel the same. and then finally, the theft, which is a big deal, i'm actually not buying the theft argument here. he's saying, i suspect you will continue to do that regardless of the outcome of this trial. i mean, the argument about well, he came forward with it. that doesn't really answer the question of first of all, why wasn't he charged with the de the guy standing in front of the jury, his office was the one that made the decision not to charge michael cohen with this. they knew about it within the statute of limitations gave michael cohen to pass. i'm not so moved by the well, he came forward with it also the relevance of the theft isn't just michael cohen's of bad guy. the relevance of a theft is it shows trump didn't know what was going on with this transaction. if he's getting stolen from in the course of

this very transaction, but he's dealing with the three primary weaknesses of michael cohen putting up right upfront and giving the jury a path to say, okay, he has these weaknesses, but we can still use his death. i don't know if the jury is going to be aware of the fact that prosecutors passed on he asked blanche asked, have you ever been charged for that theft and cohen said no, but i mean, how much time did they spend on it in their clothes? >> i just think it's the kind of thing that sort of buried in the trial and yes, it's an important fact by wonder how much how resonant obey everybody standby. there's a lot more we need to assess to discuss a very important day unfolding, right now, abby, back to you thanks well if we've got. paula reid and kristen holmes back with us here in new york and the conversation that is happening in the courtroom right now is about michael cohen and his credibility. >> and one of the key thing things that the prosecutors are calling out the defense four, is the inconsistency and saying michael cohen's a thief, but then also disputing that this

was a reimbursement. they're saying you can't you can call them a thief or you can say it wasn't a reimbursement but not both. >> i was not as impressed by that as i read that because of course the theory of the defense's case is that cohen was invoicing for legal services because proud to be the president's lawyer. and then later during this trial, i think most people occurs me, the prosecutors found out that he actually stole $60,000 and put that math and i thought it was a fuzzier argument, but they're doing think the right thing. they're trying to get out of the way, right? the stormy daniels testimony that made a lot of people at times feel a little achy. does she disliked the defendant? yes. so i think they're doing a good job of getting getting that for a second because i think when the other points that they're making is on the theft the defense is acknowledging that the theft was of money that was grossed up a reimbursement, the same the exact same structure as the stormy daniels payment. the prosecution is arguing can't have it both ways by acknowledging that that was the

structure of the payment to the pollster, but not the structure of the payment for the stormy daniels? >> yeah, as i understand it, the math that cohen good he he grossed it out because he paid actually pay $20,000. he didn't pay $30,000 and then doubled it for his own tax purposes. so in this particular argument, i see what they're trying to do, but i didn't i didn't think it was are stronger their strongest points so far they've been pretty coherent though i think more so than the defense. one of the things that they're doing right now is a lot of clean up here because we're yeah, for michael cohen where the also stormy daniels to a degree where the prosecutor you shouldn't left off was basically to say all of these people are lying to you. all of these people are not telling the truth and the prosecution's task now is to say, look, we know that this kind of feels icky. these are bad guys, probably many of them. but you have to look past that. >> well, that's something we've heard from donald trump's team two is can we just paint this as a trial of some of the sleazy underbelly of society

that yes, donald trump was involved with. but does that make it a crime? and that's something that they've pointed out. now, obviously, i think as you said, there is a certain factor with not just having a porn star up there, but also having a number of these witnesses talking about extortion over a sex tape, talking about various celebrities, michael cohen making money the off of donald trump, which they steinglass trust address saying, hey, this is all this guy has left. >> and i think what's really interesting here is they're trying to explain the turn because what you saw from the defense and michael cohen because we saw from the defense was i'm saying he just turned because all of a sudden it was more lucrative for him to go on the other side of this, the donald trump distance himself from there, so he realized that he could make more money lying on the other side. that's what you've heard the defense do. so now what they're doing is trying to say no. and then one of the things that we didn't didn't come up there, but i do want to reread read is when the prosecution was that they said cohen did trump's bidding for years and when it went bad, the defendant cut him loose, dropped him like a hot potato and tweet it to the world that mr. cohen was because a scum

bag. so clearly trying to show a moment where all of a sudden cohen was out there alone and that's why he turned on donald trump because he essentially had two. now, you started to see this back-and-forth year as steinglass continues going through, really, again you said trying to clean up some of this cohen testimony because we know that defense, spent so much time saying that this entire case hinged on michael cohen's testimony. another likely another big aspect of michael cohen's testimony is that october 24, call, and according to our reporters in the room, steinglass just acted out a fake, right? >> condition of the call. he said it was 49 seconds, a back-and-forth. that hypothetical back-and-forth between michael cohen, keith schiller, perhaps donald trump that could fit into that 92nd window that the prosecutor the defense said couldn't possibly have happened i mean, he is showing that a could have happened and it's to the jury to decide if they believe given the circumstances we're calling

a said about this prank caller, if that's how he used that precious 49 seconds, but i think we heard earlier from our colleagues talk about how acting as part of this, we saw that on the defense with todd blanche walking girls during his arms up and now a steinglass says sort of acting out this fake call i'm going to bring it in now. >> bryan lanza, he served as deputy communications director for trump's 2016 campaign he's also a partner at mercury public affairs. brian actually as we're coming on here, i'm seeing from our reporters, steinglass, the prosecutor, saying that the defense has tried to claim that that call was the big lie. that's a very pointed use of language from steinglass on the prosecution. they're basically saying the call happened and the defense is trying to pretend like it didn't. what do you make of what you heard from the defense earlier this morning and the rebuttal that we're just getting now from the prosecution first of all, abby, thank you for having me listen. >> i think the challenge that the prosecution has and the reason the defense can say that that call yeah. maybe it

wasn't a trump phone call was probably a keith schiller phone call. is because it just goes to the heart of the case. it's not a documents case that puts the felony and trump's in trump's orbit. it's it's, it's the conversation of he cohen talking about falsifying this records before the election and that requires the jury to believe michael cohen it requires them to feel that this guy's not a scumbags, a slimeball, a thief, a crooked, all these things and all this. we've seen in the last two things is it just get reinforced that he is in fact a thief. we now know he's a crook. now i have a question. did he keep the money like we're talking about whether he got prosecutors. but did michael cohen actually had to return the money that could be didn't have to return the money that to me it feels like the bigger scandal. but yeah, i mean, if you if you're looking at what the prosecution has to do, they have to convince the jury that michaels or credible person. i just find that a very hard thing to do. knowing the history of the sky yeah, it is very interesting that the prosecution and the spending some time cleaning off michael

collins reputation on the issue of the theft. >> but the defense didn't spend a ton of time on that. and we've had a number of i'm experts and jury consultants on here earlier suggesting that the todd blanche's closing argument was a little scattershot sometimes the implication of that is that that's might be what his client wants. donald trump might want him to address all of those little things to deny that the stormy daniels affair happened, to deny that these payments were were reimbursements. do you think that todd blanche was effective or was he a little bit to here there and everywhere when it came to summing this up for the jury yeah, less than the experts are what the experts are, but at the end of the de as varies in my view for the juries understand it's very easy case and it goes to the credibility of cohen. >> it doesn't go to whether an affair took place. it doesn't go to whether the paperwork was filed with respect to a transfer of funds. it goes to

whether michael cohen as the credibility that jury feels that he has the credibility to make the statement that president was involved in this conspiracy to commit this crime. >> and they can say all these other things, but that's how you narrow it down and it's just hard to see how anybody at this point can give that infect the past two weeks have shown that you can trust michael lamb the more they tried to clean it up, the more they tried to shine this up. >> it's just the more and more it looks, the less and less credible. i mean, i was talking to one of your colleagues on the tv the other day is this and this almost actually now feels like election interference because you did you putting so much on michael cohen on who none of us would trust, why else would you bring this forward unless you'd want to try to slimy up the president before an election with some fape, vague prosecution, which this is what it starting to feel like if you're dependent on believing michael cohen hi bryan lanza. >> thank you very much for that perspective. the developments in this the closing arguments from the prosecution, they are

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indeed, the prosecutor suggested that if michael cohn was lying, he could have gone much further in tying trump to alleged illegality, adding and i'm quoting her now. we didn't choose michael cohen to be our witness. we didn't pick them up at the witness store our panel of experts are here with me to assess what do you make that lauren? >> it's an important point because it's suggesting to the jury, listen, we have our witnesses as we found them. we are not trying to persuade them to tell a story that is in our liking or within are particularly a jigsaw puzzle mega picture clearer. this is who he was and you know what frankly, most crimes are not committed by any crimes committed by a witness, by a bus full of nuns. this is who they had michael cohen, and this is the person they have in this instance. >> and the prosecutor, joshua steinglass he is saying they didn't pick they did pick michael cohen to be the star witness. >> yeah. it just numbers because of all the things that he was doing involved in as the so-called fixer for donald trump.

>> they said mr. trump chose mr. cohen for the same qualities that his attorneys now urge you to to reject his testimony because of it and important point they want to have it both ways. they want to suggest on the one hand, you cannot leave anything this person says he is a liar, is a thief, worse. but on the other hand, don't believe them because if he's hung you the truth, it makes our client look bad. it cannot be the same they had to have been pick one of the eye. they also talked about bob costello. remember, he was somebody who many people thought was quizzical to have the defense call because you'd ended on michael cohen, the jury could have had bat and pushing their mind and said you have bob costello, who he called a double agent working to somehow silence the gold cohen argued there's plenty of evidence in the long run to corroborate cohen's toy, which they tried to do beforehand only by one. >> there's been this reframing of each of these defendants write each of these witnesses. i'm sorry. great. whether it'd be stormy daniels or michael cohen. it's been the prosecutors opportunity to say, look, they may have told you to view them this way, but there's another way to see this and it's the most obvious that's sort of the theme i'm

seeing in each input descriptions. >> it's nine last says, in this case, there's literally a mountain of evidence corroborating testimony that tens to backup michael, you back and bob, this is an important point and we talked about this before the last break, this idea that the fence swung really hard and stating an absolute that there is no evidence establishing whether it was donald trump's knowledge or certain aspects of the conspiracy or so on. what they're doing here is saying that no, perhaps you could not convicted defendants solely on the basis of michael cohen's testimony alone. but there's plenty of evidence in the record in the form of all sorts of documents and checks on that point and other witnesses saying it's difficult to conceive of the case with more corroboration, then this one was such a key part of their case and laurie use the term pre corroboration a little bit earlier and it's effect prior to bringing michael cohen onto the stand, if you remember, they had a series of witnesses, including stormy daniel's, and including the banker, gary farro, who had worked with cohen to set up what cohen was going to say now, cohen, when

he took the stand all of his credibility issues were brought in front of a jury, but they'd already laid, at elliot. >> doesn't michael cohen hold the keys to intent like that, all that other evidence? that is corroborating doesn't get to the intent piece or no, it no, i think you're exactly right. >> so a lot of this standard prosecutorial fair and i mean that in a good way, there's a reason we all did it and do it right? and saying, first of all, we didn't choose michael cohen, the defendant chose him. that said in virtually every case where the cooperating witness, but it's effective. it rings true, it makes sense. i think you sometimes get nods out of the jury. the thing with michael cohen and right now steinglass is trying to bridge this gap. he's trying to say he's corroborate and mountain of evidence evidence everywhere you look, he's backed up. they're going to get into the checks in the ledgers and the handwritten notes. i'm sure very soon, but there is an unavoidable gap that you have to be able to take michael cohen his word if you're going to convict, ultimately, the checks, the ledger show that there was a plan happening within the accounting department. there were meetings, but as to what was

said to donald trump and what donald trump said back showing his key knowledge and intent, you have to take michael cohen's word for that. there's no corroboration for that, but it helps it helps to prop him up to show all this other currently. >> don't have in this. i mean, i don't know if i'm able to go to my tablet or not this, if i if i can, i'll let you know. but there was a moment in time when to your point, david, you have to go back to this important meeting, the one involving weisselberg and michael cohen, and whether hope hicks are not was there in the discussion. remember david pecker, the first one is advocates saying that he wanted to be the eyes and ears and then he would be able to then catch and kill stories while on weisselberg then takes a conversation, creates as 180,000 plus the 50 already up to the $420,000 amount. that's important here because as the prosecution has just said, this this is michael cohen significance in this case is that he provides context and color to the documents phone records. he is like this important, a tour guide through the physical evidence, but those documents don't lie and they don't forget. so they're

referring back this moment again. this is about 34 falsified business records. now, we're not hearing about is the prosecution perhaps answering a question that might be on the minds of jurors, which is, what are sound weisselberg what about him? what about what he could have said in this instance to the lipa lady fair question, why was an eq called to testify to the leap of faith point that la had made that sort of prosecutors are asked are there asking the jury to essentially set aside michael cohen's credit? ability issues. i would be curious as if the prosecution uses the word common sense at any point here and saying, ladies and gentlemen, michael collins got credibility issues, but trust your gut here and number one, look at what you know about the defendant based on evidence that is pulled out here. number two, the practices the trump organization habits that were engaged in by everyone here. oh, and by the way, also the testimony of this witness. if you regard it together, you can get to a conviction but certainly they got a big jump there and he's got credit. common sense is allowed and encouraged and both parties always want to be the party of

comments as you try to say it as much as you can for that reason yes i left. >> the prosecutor says the 2015 trump tower meeting with pecker, trump and cohen is the prism through which the jury should look at this case. laura anticipated that but still right. >> then it comes to the falsified business records get it to match the part that they've got to get into because it's one thing to have the chronology which is good to go there now, because other essentially is saying to us, we have disposed of the arguments by the defense about the credibility of michael cohen and that let me begin at the beginning as we endure to say, a very good place to start, everyone standby, we have a lot more coming up right now. i want to go to erin burnett is picking up our coverage in new york. aaron all right. >> well, if and paul and kristen are here and it's great to be join with you guys to come up here what we were just talking about as as elie was talking and laura, kristen was michael cohen. and now the prosecutor, the defense and prosecution, i'm sorry, it's been over an hour. >> what you you say clean up on

michael cohen. that's a long time. that's false that there's a lot to clean up their i mean, part of the issue though, it is showing that the prosecution feels as though there is a number of things that they need eat to go through with the jury after michael cohen's testimony testimony, after his cross-examination to clean up, to clear up, it also goes to show that perhaps they believe if that some of what the defense tried to do actually worth which was undermine michael cohen as a witness to point out the fact that he was a liar. >> you see, over and over again, steinglass say, we no, that he has lied in the past. we know that he has done this various can shady dealings in the past, but this time it's different and it gives you some sort of indicator cation of the witness that they know that they have. and also, again, what they think the defense might have accomplished when they were doing their own cross-examination, apollo, in terms of the time here oh, i know. many have said luck the defense, they took a long time. now, you've got four hours for the prosecution. i just tried to imagine sitting there in that jury box for that long i, feel i feel badly for the jury

and that's probably too long, two-and-a-half hours for todd blanche that felt like it really went on and on. and this is going to go almost, almost twice as as long. and we've seen they've taken about an hour as christian noted, their time with michael cohen and that's right. look, no prosecutor in their right mind would choose michael cohen at the witness store that they've described they called him because they have to call him. and while they've said he's merely a tour guide to walk you through the physical evidence. the fact is that michael cohen's testimony is some of the only direct evidence looking the defendant to the falsified business records. so they had to spend that time to clean up because there does depend on the jurors trusting michael cohen. one thing that's interesting when they were trying to clean up the check about michael cohen. >> i want i want to say the exact words, but the let's up the steinglass was saying was you can criticize them all you want from making money off of trump now, but that's the one thing that he has yeah. >> basically trying to it felt like reading it encouraged the jury to put themselves in michael cohen shoes and say, what would you do? and the

question is whether that sort of thing will be effective will exactly. >> and i think what we saw the defense do was try to say michael cohen we'll spend whatever story is best for michael cohen at that time and what you're seeing from the prosecution is to walk back and say, no, this is the only story that michael cohen has now one of the things that they said and i'm paraphrasing here was that this man had done donald trump's bidding for years and years. and then one day was dropped like a hot potato. and donald trump tweeted out, but he was a scum bag for the entire world to see. and that left michael cohen on an island and that's the way they're trying to separate michael cohen from the past. somebody who admittedly lied multiple times and defensive donald trump, but also in defense of himself to protect himself, to protect his family or protect him with his family. and then also didn't lie at various points. now they're trying to say, well, this is different because he was left out on an island and this was survival these down the truth now, it is interesting though, coming in in into this, we were told michael cohen had said, but also it had been very clear from the prosecution that they

were michael cohen was crucial, but that they would prove it without him and as elie was saying, they didn't do that, no. >> you really can't do it. one thing that trump is really good about is not leaving a paper trail which this is why it's sort of ironic that we're here for what is effectively a paperwork crime falsifying business records without that paper trail is very difficult to prove a case like this beyond a reasonable doubt, you need first-hand accounts and michael cohen is the only one we had allen weisselberg for cfo of the trump organization, is currently in rikers. he could have also provided that, but prosecutors chose for a variety of reasons not to call them. so michael cohen, he's all you've got to provide that direct link to the larynx sphericity. what about that though? allen weisselberg, obviously he's serving time in prison. they didn't call him he could to have either made the case slam dunk, black and white, or ended it or they would say maybe he would lie or who knows, infestation, believe he wouldn't be a good witness. >> he plead and you can't bring a witness who, you know is going to plead the fifth because we've seen how he's testified right path. i think

the other part of this allen weisselberg thing, which is something now the prosecution has to essentially defend because it's their burden to prove. and if my allen weisselberg curb could prove it, why isn't he there? the other person that they didn't call with keith schiller and you have a moment equals critical moment in which she could shut could have said yes or no about this call, was this all about the prankster? but when i michael cohen calls but then he put trump on any talk to daniels, and we didn't have the video or at least distills that were entered into court of schiller and trump walking off, right before the call was made, indicating that they were together. >> but then you have this kind of missing time frame of what actually happened in the call. they didn't call keith schiller another person who could have corroborated michael cohen story. we don't know exactly why, but we do know that keith schiller is still radialis to the former president, but again, it is not on the defense to call those it's witnessed. it is on the prosecution. >> it was interesting the blanche didn't make more of this. we knew from our reporting that he was going to bring up the missing witnesses. i'm surprised you didn't hammer a little harder on those because the fences theory is

that neither one of these witnesses was called because prosecutors worried that it would contradict their story. it's surprising to me given all the other things that blanche spent time on, including stormy daniels, karen do gold that he didn't focus on that i want to show you one other thing that happened here. this was judge merchan admonishing blanche, for mentioning prison time to the jurors. now obviously there has been discussion wouldn't necessarily if if one were convicted in this case as a first-time defendant in trump's case. obviously, maybe likely would not have present time, but he brought it up and was admonished, obviously, by judge merchan. so can you explain, paula first why those comments were so controversial, why bringing that up is even an issue so sentencing is not something for the jury that is for the judge. that's why that was considered third rail. that's why that might arise out of the judge and why he had to offer that curative instruction. but does it matter? i guess he's saying but then to know what could be the repercussion of their decision, i would presume was the context in which blanche but that's not ok. he wanted them to think about this. do you want to put someone in? prison based on the words of

michael cohen that was idea. he probably knew that was not appropriate for closings that that would get some pushback and did and the judge chose to give a curative instruction, but it's not like the jury didn't hear it and it didn't register sure and today, you had in the courtroom at for all of this everybody except for alloca jared and millennia, the whole family. >> so i would put these into so separate categories. the ivanka jared of it and the meloni of it did not ever think that milan, your trump was going to show up. this humiliated her at the time. she is not a stand by your man kind of person. she was never going to come to court and say, oh, yes, of course he did this to protect me. that is not who melania trump is, and that is not the relationship she has with her form for with her husband, as i have been formed president or former husband. >> okay. a little bit. so that's my been told by a number of sources close to them? >> yes, that is one part of this. the other part of this is the jared and ivanka i think that's a little bit more surprising. these are the kids were seeing in all the other kids, all the other kids, and their spouses, other than donald trump junior fiance kimberly go foil. she has not

been in court, but they have made a line in the stan they've put down their foot and said we're not going to be part of any of this and a public campaigning and i am told by people close to ivanka trump that she is focusing on our kids, that part of the issue is that our kids are now of an age where they understand what's going on, but they maybe didn't understand what was going on when she was in the white house that what she got as vitriolic response to her time in the white house was much worse than she and jared ever imagined, including impact on their social life. remember if they have to leave new york and moved down to florida? get a fresh start after she left the white house. >> all right. well, we're here in the middle of the closing arguments, and obviously the prosecution right now, attorney joshua steinglass, who has been in that room and done much of the examining and cross-examining is given the closing statements right now and we'd been allotted for hours for this from the prosecution after the defense took about two-and-a-half hours and then of course, this is going to be remanded over. start to give the instructions over to the jury. so these are these crucial moments, wolf, whether these are the final moments here there or not.

that's the, that's the main question wolf, right? are we going to be getting a verdict tomorrow? is it going to take days? we just don't know. >> we will find out, aaron. thank you very much right now. i want to read something. the prosecutor, joshua steinglass, said, just moments ago, and i'm quoting him now, the value of this corrupt bargain cannot be overstated. it turned out to be one of the most valuable contributions anyone ever made to the trump campaign. and this scheme cooked up by these ben at this time could very well be what got president trump elected? once ami, the parent company of the national enquirer, purchased stories on the candidates behalf. those purchases became unlawful campaign contributions let's bring back our panel of legal and political experts and laura, what do you make of that? >> it's a very important point because one of the things that they're trying to suggest in the defense's closing arguments was that trump did not freak out. was the term he used when you're talking about the allegations of a sexual

encounter with trump and daniels or the access hollywood tape. much of what she had been brought out through testimony from hope hicks and others suggests that trump was concerned about the political fallout. remember, hope hicks testified and talked about the trump was often concerned about how something might play in the public. this clearly as one i could play in the public. it's now we trying to undermine that and say no this was of enough concern as to incentivize the payment of funds to stormy daniel's that were then later reimburse and then falsified business records to cover up the campaign contribution. again, bringing it back two ways, actually charged with because the substance of the actual allegation, the criminal allegations 34 state felony criminal charges of falsifying documents. yeah, that's the substance of the crime that has been alleged. that is the crime 34 counts. >> you have to prove the following that you had the intent to do so to falsify business records just means they had to one it'd be business records, not personal documents. they had to indeed be false that you have the intent to defraud or cover up another crime that was

committed. that's what elevates mum misdemeanor to a felony, why it's important to focus on the idea of them being false and business records not only because that's what you have to prove the elements, but number one, that they're going to suggest after he was the president united teachers when everything was made that it became a personal record. was not really kept in the ordinary course of business maintained by a custodian of the actual organization. but instead personal in nature. and number two, that he had every incentive and the motivation was four, two cover up to get an eye towards the campaign, but it had to be false. this is where it comes in about that. remember that compartmentalize categories three or four categories are mentioned. one was legal services was it indeed for legal services more generally, was that something that was done in a false sense or was it simply a matter of how you categorize expenses? they've got to make this argument hit home for this jury to have 34 counts. have a chance at conviction and the prosecution has made the point repeatedly, these are felony charges misdemeanors, which

carries a much smaller penalty, but felony charges absolutely have to pick up where laura left off. again. the prosecutors have to establish the sort of commission or concealment of another crime. now that crime right out of new york law is promoted. one of the crime which is promoting are preventing the election. someone's election to public office by unlawful means. now, what they noted here, if you, if you notice just a few moments ago they kept using the term thing of value helping the campaign was a thing of value. these contributions even if it wasn't writing a check du, a campaign that provided a benefit to the campaign. and that's i believe where the prosecution's going is trying to hit that by unlawful means. let's point out of it because elie, the timing is very significant coming with just a few weeks before the presidential election. >> yeah, tilburg of 2016, what the de is doing right now is answering for the jury the question of, well, what's the crime? because they've heard the jury is heard quite a bit about what's not a crime

right? having sex with a porn star, not a crime. paying hush money, not a crime paying hush money, even relating to a campaign, not a crime. the crime is, they made these payments in order to impact the election. they therefore became political expenditures, campaign expenditures for campaign contributions, way beyond the limit and then falsify them. and there's the crime. rather than calling them. i don't know exactly what they should have called them. i mean, you're not going to call them hush money payments. but the prosecution's theory is that by labeling them as attorney's fees, as retainers, that's the falsification that's the actual crime charged here. and what the de is doing now is they're taking us through and taking the jury through the chronology. they have this august 2015 meeting with david pecker, michael cohen, donald trump. hey guys, we're going to watch out for damaging stories. we're going to try to have donald trump's back here. now they're going through the series of catch and kill schemes it's gonna go the doorman, which they were just talking about, then they're going to get to mcdougal, then they're going to get to stormy daniels. and that's the crime. only the stormy daniels ones. >> this is where common sense

has to come in have to keep pushing this point, which is that ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this was in the weeks or months leading up to a presidential election where there was other materials out there in the form of the access hollywood tape and so on that had clearly caused concern among the campaign. you and you and i, as human beings, cannot doubt that a presidential candidate would have been mindful that this might have had an impact on the campaign and the defense muddied that a little bit, but again, just as a matter of common this is how i would argue and i'm sure many other attorneys would as a matter of common sensors, what do you think? how does it how's it? going, david europe political director, there are laws as far as campaign, election interference here in the united states. what's legal and what's illegal, exactly what led saying what the prosecution is trying to do there at that. i think the prosecution would call the original sin meeting in august of 2015 in trump tower once it was discussed, that money would change hands here to help protect the campaign that

becomes a campaign expenditure and then falls under campaign finance law. but i do want to say because we were talking when the defense was finishing up, we were talking about to elliott's point about the muddied the waters as it relates to the catch and kill scheme here that's at the center of all of this and we were talking about that the defense team is trying to make that standard operating procedure nothing to see here. >> this is what every one does. this wasn't specific to the trump campaign or even about a campaign that's what celebrities do. and what have you. >> they are rebutting that are steinglass is in his summation here as, as much as he possibly can including talking about that original sin meeting. >> he said mr. blanche said there's nothing wrong with trying to influence an election. it's called democracy steinglass then tells the jury, in reality, this agreement at trump tower was the exact opposite. it was the subversion of democracy so urine in on this as well. yeah, it's like obsessed with this

0.1 of the things he also said was pecker an ami stopped engaging in legitimate press activities the moment they agreed to be a covert arm of the defendants campaign really trying to delineate for people what is a legitimate press activity and what is not is something that also has been debated among the least it will parties as well in terms of the instructions, the judge will give the jury here, nor is this comes across the alleged illegality to the jurors because a lot of this gets sort of confusing and it may be seen as not necessarily all that convincing. >> this is the beauty of having the final word, right? primacy, recency repetition as well all effective tools speech, very effective tools and the closing argument to say here is what you need to know because you're going to have jury instructions that are coming later. those are going to give you the actual law and how to follow it. i would suspect that steinglass, as the prosecutor, is following pretty closely the notes he needs to say to have the jurors in that aha moment and the deliberation room say,

this is this corresponds to this, this is this point, this is this point for all things you have to actually prove it. >> you don't get enough we for the one of first time, we have full clarity now as to what their predicate crime is the predicate crime meaning what was the other crime it was commissioned, aided, or trying to be done when it elevated from a misdemeanor or a falsified business records to a felony. >> here we're learning about as a campaign violation now, they could also talk about a different one that could say tax law as well as an issue the judge's already said that the jurors, while they have to be unanimous in their actual verdict they need not be unanimous. and what they think the underlying crime of the second crime was, they could, some could say, well, this is about the campaign. finally, i could say, i'm a tax issue to me. that's not required in this case. the defense tried bet to be the case to say i got to have one solid thing. the judge did not agree and such a critical point, laura and this idea and the defense sort of tried charming the water a little bit by suggesting that not only did the prosecution have to establish it, but also

proved beyond reasonable doubt that that crime was committed or consummated. >> and that's just not simply the case that simply has to be uk prime out there. you just sort of have to establish what it is, but don't really need to go to the other becomes a felony if there are two crimes and there's sort of a second crime. yeah, i'm pardon me. i was referring to the second crime what the falsifying of records was done to conceal that second crime, you really don't have to go that far into proving beyond a reasonable doubt what the crime was, or that it was that it was even completed, that it even happened, that it's more than attempted. that was the fed issue. that was one reason why the feds were reluctant to take his case, right and let's keep in mind the fed's the southern district of new york did pass on this case writ large. >> there are differences in federal and state well, but just so people can follow along at home because the crime here is not easy. because he to explain and understand, we're working on a visual for tomorrow, but it's basically a three-step here for the prosecution, which is not great, but they can still do it. first of all, falsifying a business record under new york state law that in itself is a

misdemeanor if it's done to commit some other crime, it jumps up to a felony. the some other crime here is new york state election law, which says you cannot try to influence an election by unlawful means. now you're thinking, well, what are those unlawful means that takes us to step three, where the prosecution has offered up three unlawful means as laura and l8 were just saying okay, that would be a federal campaign finance laws stay with me. a tax fraud which i don't understand. i'm interested to see how they explain the tax crime and then get this falsification of business records so that one also was tough for me to understand falsifying business records in order to falsify business, right? very meta it's like it feeds on itself but the main point that they're driving at here is basically the federal campaigns is saying this was over election fraud, telling the jury was an act in furtherance of the conspiracy to interfere with the archiving perfect illustration one of the things we heard this morning was that the idea that juror is kind of have made up their mind

in a way and that the closing arguments are a way for the attorneys to say this is this is a conversation you need to have when you go to deliberations for those of us here who by us, i mean, you have done closing arguments. how do you think about jury? reactions? is that the kind of thing that helps you form the information you'll put in the argument. >> i did not agree with the assessment that jurors do not pay attention to closing arguments. i think they absolutely changed the closing. are they are they are trying and relying and many times on the summation to say, what do i need to focus on here? remember this has been weeks and weeks for people who did not choose to be jurors, they were summon they don't necessarily want to be here, but they're performing hey, john, todd blanche began by thanking them for their service for that very reason. i think that you can't predict what a jury is thinking by bilingual alone, but you can, you can look at them to figure out how long they are attending what are the moments that you might be losing them? are they starting to a high school student? are they looking

around the room but they turn in their hair are they leaning back or are they looking away from you? >> are they studying the defendant? >> that's all important. remember, unlike the entirety of this trial they attorneys are now focusing with a podium looking at the jurors. this may be the first time they've made eye contact with each sure. at one point in time about the trial today, the defendant, donald trump, has been turning his body to now face the jurors. so they might be the first time contact with a former president united, who's now the defendant in this action everything has come down to the moment of figuring out what are you persuaded by? what can i say? where do i lean in more and what do i lean out? >> and i would just say from my personal experience as a juror in montgomery county, maryland years ago outside of washington, dc the closing arguments by the prosecution and the defense were so so critically important, not just to me, but to all the members, all the other jurors as well. so this is really an important moment. but we're all watching right now. everybody standby up next. we'll speak with a

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attorney, todd blanche is issuing a statement for the jury. >> he said in the defense defense summation mr. blanche asked in substance that you do not send the defendant to prison. that comment was improper, and you must disregard it and he was referring judge two in the closing statement blanche, telling the jury or are you going to send trump been to prison basically, on the word of michael cohen. obviously, the jury does not sentence. the judge does. but what do you think of judge merchan's reaction here was it the right thing to do? >> well, he had to correct the misstatement. that's clear to me, but admonishing a defense lawyer at the end of the summation doesn't look so good to the jury. so i am a little sorry, it had to happen, but hey, he walked into it. he knew he wasn't supposed to say that the judge does the sentencing, not the jury, and it wasn't inappropriate statement and judge i guess on this front, this is something i've always wondered, but in this case

it's a specific example of this question, which is you tell the jury you can't can't pay attention to that, don't don't don't think about it but it's easier said than done, right? >> you might tell somebody not to think about something, but it's there once it's been said, it can't be unsaid, can the jury easily? for barred, something like that you know, you're asking a question that should be answered by a psychologist worth an a judge. >> i don't think you can unring a bell. they know what they heard, they know what they heard, and they know that their verdict could could result in a prison sentence. i don't think you can wipe that out of their minds yeah. >> i guess that's the reality of it. as you said, it's psychology, right? it's the system has all kinds of exactly objection. sustained. is well. what is the jury actually take away from it but i'm curious as to your view of judge more, sean and i've been in the courtroom several days judge. and he's always had what i would describe his very pleasant demeanor his lips are turned up instead of down. and even when he admonishes, he does not do so in a nasty voice

are nasty tone or with a nasty demeanor, how would you say from what you've seen as the ejection sustain the issues he's taken, how he's handled things, how would you say he's done so far? >> i think he gets an a minus, meaning he's almost been perfect, but no one is perfect. so the only times that maybe i thought he was lost his temper a little bit was at the castello testimony as very hard on castello in front of the jury, which again makes the jury not like the defense case. he was probably a little harsh today, maybe what he obviously was upset with todd blanche on the statement about prison. so it's very hard for a judge to be perfect. and never lose their temper in front of a jury. but i would say, i mean, he's got a 95% success rate. he really did a good job in this trial you've elevated him from an a minus to an a i could ask me that's a minus yeah

that's right there. >> you guys said mathematically nothing but psychologically everything, right? as you say, someone is about the psychology of it. >> but i am curious about your view of how things are going now because you had weeks of a case and then you have a week off and now you are here in these closing arguments, which are crucial i understand they're not gonna be able to get the jury that is transcripts have everything else that happened before so do you think that there is even more weight on today this closing statements after this week break and there might ordinarily be in a case like this yes i actually do think that because having had a week off, you tend to forget the details certainly on the various documents that prove the case. >> and so this is the last thing they here before the charge. and the point of doing it is to make them focus on what you think is the most important thing. now, both sides have spent a lot of time talking about michael cohen. obviously, defend defend summation went on and on about how can you convict somebody on

the word of a liar and that's what they had to do but the people in turn in their summation are saying, yeah, he lied because he lied for trump and trump liked him as a lawyer because he lied. and so you need to connect the two and they're also going to stress every document that makes this case almost regardless of colon, there's so many incriminating documents here. and so they're going to point out to the jury which documents really are the key documents and they should look at them and they should think about them, right? >> and they are obviously able to get those documents as individual we'll email exchanges or texts or information like that. >> judge. i appreciate your time. all right. so much thank you. >> and our coverage of the closing arguments in the criminal hush money trial of donald trump is back after this quick break. we'll find i will see you in one of the most active tornado seasons. >> you can't control a tornado what kinds of interventions can we design go inside the store

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jurors, and i'm quoting him now it's difficult to conceive of a case with more corroboration than this one. our panel of experts is back with us right now. laura coates, what do you make of that argument for prosecutors? that there's overwhelming corroboration of the allegations. well, i'll tell you two things. one, that they feel that they have met their burden of proof in advance and michael cohen's testimony and two, they knew them michael cohen actually needed to have that pre corroboration. him alone would not have been. i've given his credibility issues. >> it's important as while they're trying to unpack the different people who've been named here at karen mcdougal and others and speak about their motivations, motivation and michael cohen of karen mcdougal and david pecker and beyond but their focusing krever say that their motivation is not important. >> mcdougal's is not important. what's important is the defendants motivation. they all talk about how donald trump has essentially deputize michael cohen to david pecker. why that's important is because remember from the congressional testimony of michael cohen and how trump intimate things has not come hey things, we have been wondering about the trial. how would he prove that donald

trump had his fingerprints on something they are talking about a moment when trump essentially says to pecker, i'm paraphrasing here, speak to cohen about these issues, which is why now you're hearing him talk about him being the fixer by deputizing, so to speak, michael cohen, it gives the link to say this was all at the behest of donald trump. and remember, one important jury instruction here could be to include that the defendant is guilty for the behavior of somebody else if they essentially sanctioned that conduct, and it's true, i kept me if you think i'm wrong, that over the years michael cohen was certainly one if not the most trusted aid that trump had. they they were both involved in all sorts of stuff. >> oh, cummings, when i would never think you're wrong wolf. so let's just put that on the record so a couple of things to michael cohen's credibility and certainly the fact that he served the former president for a long time, works to his benefit. i think as a witness, i think this idea of how much

does someone's credibility issues to hurt them as a witness? i don't believe that there is any witness who was so incredible are unc credible that they're going to tank and entire case. anyone who has ever tried a homicide hi, or gang, or drug or mob. kayz knows that witnesses come in with tremendous baggage and often jurors will think, okay you know, that's not great. however, considering that this person was under oath considering the other evidence in the record, this is quite credible. joshua steinglass, just a few moments ago to this point about how how we look at motivations and credibility. did sort of pick up on karen mcdougal and stormy daniels saying their motivations are not relevant. what is relevant are the behaviors of the defendant and any coconspirators with him and if the jury can believe those things, the fact that michael cohen has credibility issues and prior convictions and lies in his past, don't help him, but certainly don't think the case it is summation are closing arguments. the prosecutor, steinglass, david,

told jurors and i'm quoting him now this scheme cooked up by these men at this time could very well be what got president trump elected. your political director. does that ring true? >> i mean, i don't know joshua steinglass is a much better lawyer than i can ever be. >> i'm not one, but as a political analyst, i'm not sure if that's actually drew that trump would not have gotten elected apps into this mystery had come out. what do you have slipped elected? >> he very, well could have been elected. i mean, i don't we don't know that. i don't as adi was saying before, being very generous, i think we can't ever know. there are so many things that go into winning and allow you said the whole world thought that the access hollywood tape was going to be a killer of his campaign. and it wasn't this on top of that with that, we don't it's not knowable thing. so i'm not sure. i can understand why steinglass wants to include that in his summation here of describing what the schemas as a bit of political analysis. i'm not sure it's totally act

on it. go ahead. >> oh, i was just going to add i think it's interesting that steinglass is also referring to cohen over and over again as the fixer and not his attorney. i was wondering if you guys could kinda underscore why that's important because i felt there was this whole debate about whether he was it's on retainer or not and talking about him not as a lawyer, but as a fixer seems to be a very pointed way of doing it in a close well, one, i think that it helps to not think of as a attorney because that recorded conversation between himself and what would have been his client that i think could ruffle some feathers to suggest that he is father more i'm trustworthy or perhaps that he had some nefarious intent other than me innocent. explain the he provided which wise i wanted to send this to david pecker to show him going to worry about he's going to pay you your money here. i have proved i never actually so that i was gonna go back to one point. david rent mentioned about the idea of why it's not knowable and both of you have confirmed that it was knowable. >> this is why it was likely a mistake by the defense to focus so much time on somebody like stormy daniel's hours on the

stand because they thought with that juror is were going to clutch their pearls because she's an adult film actress she was a director as well. >> she was not backing down from actually saying that she in fact had sex and own that her name was not stephanie. it was stormy daniel's for that reason. i think the reasons you can't assume that he would have lost because because hollywood or because this information is why you have to be careful about trying to the phrase was shamed her. they were attempting to do during a test so one because jurors want to know why they're here, 34 counts of falsified business records and what you can do to prove it. not that you want to help me the proceeding. this person as a problem there is nothing wrong with her profession. she talked about it as such, but they wanted to rake her over the coals for that reason. and for that very notion to bank on pro clutching. >> a problem, i'd add to this, this notion of why you're calling him a fixer versus not. we're he referred to as donald trump's attorney yes. it to

prosecutors could make a compelling case that records were still falsified and claimed to be legal services. if you call them the fixer, it's a hard jump to say that you're putting legal services in the ledgers via guidance, a fixer, it gets back to the point we were talking about in column a lawyer, there's attorney-client privileges to all of that as well. >> it also gets back to the point we were talking about where you called the defendant. >> the defendant, not mr. jones? and while you call the fixer, the fixer not attorney cohen or everybody standby. there's a lot more were coming up to a were following all the details in this trial, stay with our special coverage, we'll be right back. >> the nba playoffs. i always get emotional. >> you more concerned about what's going on inside the nba than what's going on inside of you no doc, you're right. >> and that's all the time we have. >> thanks for watching. are you cutting to a commercial western conference finals presented by at&t, continue on to i am david, i lost 92 pounds on goal. i noticed within a week that the region at least supplement really knocked out my sugar cravings. i didn't

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send you a free book to answer questions you may have call now and we'll come to you 808 to one 4,000 welcome back to our special live coverage of the hush money criminal trial of the foreign president donald trump. >> back now with our chief legal affairs correspondent, paula reid and national correspondent, kristen holmes. alright, so here we are waiting. >> and they're listening, they're, and they're listening of just a couple of points to make from this, as this is about to go to the jury, your sources in trump world are telling you how they see this going when they get optimistic about how the jury will come out when they start to be afraid, what are you hearing? >> well, so this is all a matter of time, right. so they believe and again, this is just some of the sources close to the campaigns and of his senior advisers who have told me with us so they know just about as much as anybody. so this is just speculation, but they believed that there are some options here. one is that the jury comes back and it comes back quickly, 45 minutes and that it is a conviction and

they move from there. the next part of this, that every kind of interim after that, any five-minute period isn't gets closer and closer to being potentially a hung jury. and that is when they start to get more optimistic about it, the longer the time the jury is out, the better that they feel about the case. now, just a reminder that i've spoken to almost no one who believes that donald trump, at least on his team, is being acquitted. they believe that there's two options here that he's going to be convicted or that there's it's going to be a hung jury. they're hoping obviously that they turned at least one jury made one jury sympathetic in this case. >> and you know, it's interesting, paula and all of this is it comes down to how one defines the word reasonable which is really amazing, right? such as subjective thing. it's not beyond a doubt. it's beyond a reasonable doubt. >> and that that works heard carries all the weight of that charge. >> it does. and there's a concern obviously in trump world and also legal, legal experts that this becomes a war schrock test for how you feel about the former president. and that's not what the legal system is supposed to be. we

don't want to open that pandora's box for people just to kind of political pressure, bring charges and districts that are not unfriendly to a certain full of politician former politician. this needs to be the facts presented, the evidence presented match the charges beyond a reasonable doubt. and right now, you see prosecutors walking through now chronologically, their case right now, they're really focused on the conspiracy because they charge this as a felony, arguing that these business records were falsified to help trump when in 2016. so they've spent the better part of an hour focusing on that part that helping trump win in 2016. >> and that is obviously at the core of it. how much time kristen you know, when you look at this, are they spending on sort of the underlying motive, the kind of diddy or you didn't eat, which i know is not relevant to it, whether or not he had the affair with stormy daniels, but obviously trump's tried to make it at the core of it. he's tried to say i didn't. and someone tried to extort me. and what would you have done? >> yeah. and i think it was interesting just to few, the defense go over the stormy

daniels portion of this saying over and over again during their closing, that didn't even happen, essentially pointing other now it's something that they want that they know that they're client wants to hear. >> they want it continuously denial of this alleged affair with stormy daniels, something that donald trump has done. >> but regardless, i think what we're seeing back-and-forth here now and what do we even watching as there talking about the fact that the prosecution or excuse me, the defense was trying to muddy up the tape about karen mcdougal well, at about michael cohen opening up a bank account, you hear trump on the tape. >> they're trying to say, but did defense was trying to say that it was edited in some way. give me a break. >> going through each of these various parts. >> but again, i really do have to go back to the fact that a lot of the reason why they have to do this enormous amount of clean up and going through these faxes because they seem to know that their main witness is a bit unreliable. >> and they said, what was the line just a few moments ago, a steinglass was speaking. he said, i've almost never or will, i'm not i'm not exactly sure what the exact wording

was, but that was the concept seen a case that has this much corroboration. >> well, that's very generous assessment of his own case. i think we go again, legal experts across board all acknowledge that they only called michael cohen because they had to an ultimately, he is the direct link between the defendant and the alleged criminal conduct there are certainly receipts, there are documents, they're saying he's the tour guide to walk you through that. >> well, he is more than that, which is why they spent about an hour trying to bolster his credibility. >> i think steinglass maybe it's trying to, add themselves up, but that's just not true. >> then obviously this could go late tonight or into the evening, right? i mean, they have four hours allotted, then it gets it was the judge will talk to the jury. right. but this is gonna go longer than any day we've had so far, right? >> it did they have to parse this out and decide how exactly they want to handle it. >> they being the judge here has to say, are you guys are we close here? we're going to wrap do we want to actually carry this over until tomorrow? i believe you had some reporting this morning about the fact that they, todd blanche, justine specific plea wanted and that's the defense

is simply wanted to be two to three hours to kind force the prosecution into a time period of the day exactly. >> it seemed like the judge was aligned. they didn't want the prosecution believe because if no time limit generally, they've no time limit to leave an extra 30 minutes and get that extra crack at the jury right before they went to deliberations. here's the judges on board, which is why they're going to stay late today. >> i don't know. sometimes i say for a best man or woman speech, shorter is often better all right. they are taking rephrase that with the courtroom, so we're going to take a brief break as well. we'll be back our coverage of the trial is back after that, we'll be speaking with the jury expert to hear how the closing arguments may be playing with the jury, right now. >> we'll be back in one of the most active tornado seasons, you can't control a tornado. what kinds of interventions can we design go in? >> the store?

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assignment with. audie cornish. listen wherever you get your podcasts a jury of seven men and five women will ultimately decide. is donald trump guilty? joining me now, jury consultant melissa gomez and melissa, thanks so much for joining us. we just heard moments ago that judge joshua steinglass, the prosecutor, says he's only about a third of the way through hey summation. we've heard that the number one rule is now shall not bore the jury, but are both teams in danger of breaking that rule with these hours long summations yes. >> there could be some trouble with that one of the most important rules of speaking to a jury is to make sure you maintain their attention because jurors are not going to remember they're not going to be compelled something that they were asleep during so it is really important that when

giving a summation that you're clear that you're concise. and i think that also give some credibility to how confident you are in the evidence. you don't need to go through every single witness in every single piece of evidence and closing. everybody was there yeah. >> good point. the jury deliberations begin this week after both sides finish their closing. arguments take us inside that room. what will those deliberations be like? >> different juries deliberate in different ways. it depends on the constellation of characters there are going to be people who are more vocal, people who are quieter but that doesn't necessarily mean that people who are more vocal will have more poll. i've, i've seen many juries deliberate mock juries, and talk to folks after deliberating real juries. and it's really more about how compelling the evidences and who can best articulate their position when debating the

issues and your experience, melissa, how important are these closing arguments for helping the jury make a decision so they're very important for a couple of reasons and some may be surprising usually by the point of closing, each jury, like i said, they've been there the whole time. >> they already have a perspective of what they think. and so the closings provide number one, give the contextual story of what that evidence means it also supposed to provide a roadmap for the jurors between the evidence they heard and the actual questions on the verdict form and finally, what's really important about closing argument is for each side to understand that they're not necessarily at the point where they need to convince someone who's on the other side what they need to do is use that closing argument to provide the ammunition, to provide the

argument for those jurors who already believe in their side. so that once the jurors are back in that deliberation room lawyers can't have any more influence. they've already both they've already said everything they have to say they need to make sure that they've provided the jurors who believed in their side of the case. what they need to fight for them in the deliberation room, melissa, how important is the jury's view of michael cohen's credibility likely to be when they're determining a verdict you know like a lot of evidence i think that's going to be in the eye of the beholder so i think both sides and end this is something the prosecution has done wisely. both sides have embraced his lack of credibility. >> the defense has embraced it in terms of, hey, if you don't believe michael cohen, that means the prosecution can't prove their case. and what the prosecution has done is tried to steal the thunder of that. >> yes. >> michael cohen is a convicted felon. felon, he is a liar and

he is the person that donald trump chose. so they're trying to align that aspect of him, the aspect that is the weakest part of their case in order to try to bolster well, yes, he's a liar. that's why he was chosen by donald trump listen, gomez, jury consultant. >> thank you very much for your expertise. the trial right now is on a very brief break. the closing arguments by the prosecution will resume in just a few moments. stay with us when the competition is a nuclear competition spying is extraordinarily important the russians were trying to spy on us we were spying on them it's very difficult to determine whom you can trust in this study, franken everything got out of control this is a war, but secret was secrets and small size a nuclear game. premieres sunday at ten on cnn

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with jake tapper. next on cnn donald trump, by scene. i just walk you back moments ago into the courtroom, were watching

the final arguments from the prosecution continued. jurors are about to return from a quick break as well. prosecution is nearing another two full hours of closing arguments in this hush money let me criminal trial of the former president. and so far, the prosecutor, joshua steinglass, has been pivoting away from the defense's arguments that michael cohen's testimony can't be trusted. in fact, he's trying to show that his testimony was it needed at all to prove that the former president knew about the payments to reimburse his former fixer and attorney michael cohen and knew about the scheme to silence the adult film actress stormy daniels. this morning, we also heard the defense claim trump was actually a victim of extortion. they also tried to discredit michael cohen, referring to him as quote, the greatest liar of all time. the jury was told from the start of today's hearings that they would be long and they said they were prepared to stay longer than normal. i'll be back in two hours, 6:00 p.m. eastern