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i know... faster wifi and savings? ...i don't want to miss that. that's amazing doc. mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? join our community of millions who sensitive skin was transformed by bloom cream, violin, earth with liev schreiber, premiere sunday at nine on cnn close captioning is brought to you by tableau. >> watch, pause and record live tv subscription free start watching tv for free with tableau switching to tableau has really been a money saver without a monthly subscription was amazing. >> quarter today at tableau tv.com good evening. >> thanks for joining us. it went from early this morning, late into the evening and adjust wrapped up first the defense and the prosecution first criminal trial ever of a former president having their final say, jurors will get the case tomorrow. it hadn't prosecutor joshua steinglass until moments go walking them step by step by step through the former president's hush money payment to stormy daniels

shortly before the 2016 election and the alleged scheme to hide it from voters. now, he emphasized how much of the case in his telling did not rely solely on the testimony of former fixer, michael cohen, whose fault he acknowledged saying, quote, we didn't pick him up. the witness store as for defense attorney todd blanche, she accused cohen of lying to the jury, calling him, quote, the mvp of liars and the gloat which he said stands for greatest liar of all time. he wrapped up by listing ten justification for reasonable doubt. the final one being michael cohen. blanche also earned a scolding from the judge for saying, quote, you cannot send somebody to prison unquote, based on cohen's word judges make that decision, not juries. the judge will instruct jurors on the relevant points of law tomorrow afterwards, the former president is fate will be in their hands as for him, he went into today complaining online, the prosecution gets the last word complaining during a break this afternoon that the prosecution's closing arguments were boring when see if he'll have anything to say tonight with us. is new york

criminal defense attorney arthur aidala, cnn legal analyst, norm eisen, seen in news night. abby phillip, the sources, kaitlan collins, all three were in the court also see didn't senior legal analyst elie honig and cnn's kara scannell outside the courthouse in lower manhattan carolyn, start with you. what was the mood like in these historic and lengthy, lengthy closing arguments the marathon of closing arguments. >> i mean, that the jury's attention was wrapped throughout the day. they had been inside that corbin for more than ten hours. let's name what almost seems like could have been yesterday to donald trump's team, give their closing arguments and then the prosecutor, joshua steinglass, and just finishing moments ago, his closing arguments was lasted almost five hours, four hours, and 41 minutes. they were focused on both of the attorneys as they spoke. i've looked at them multiple times they were all looking directly at the lawyer, looking down at the monitors in front of them when evidence was put up on the screen, the lawyers, both of them went through excerpts of

transcripts, some of these texts, messages, the phone logs, all to remind the jury in the prosecution's case that they do have evidence that there is evidence beyond michael cohen and that they should find donald trump guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, and then in the defense's case, trying to poke holes in the testimony of cohen, and in some of the other evidence that they have suggesting that if this was really a big conspiracy, why wasn't david pecker involved in the ultimate the payment to stormy daniels so a lot of focus and attention by the jury today, donald trump for his part, had actually turned his chair about 90 degrees at one point to watch his lawyer give the closings and watch the jury as they were taking all of this in during the prosecution's closing arguments, trump was facing forward. he did it really seem to be paying much attention to that occasionally leaning into look at the monitor himself about some of the emails and text messages that were put up. but along de day that really tested the patients people in there, but the jury did seem to

be wrapped the sep judge check with them several times to see if they wanted to keep going. and at one point, he asked them publicly in front of us not having an officer good behind the scenes and the jurors nodded their heads in agreement that they wanted to stay. but this now finally coming to an end. just a few moments ago, anderson norm, you were there both for the morning? the session in the afternoon session, what jumped out at you? what were the high highs, low, lows? >> well, it was a long day i thought the jury hung in there. the first thing you look for is the jury continuing to pay attention and they did. it was fascinating to me, the strategy of the defense and the prosecution, anderson, because they were opposite strategies the defense honed in on the three critical issues in this case and said, you can't prove these 34 records were false you can't prove trump intended to defraud with these false records that he knew they weren't not income, that they

were reimbursements. and you can't show that he was covering up an election conspiracy. so they used kind of an inductive approach. they organize that evidenced todd blanche, by those three issues the prosecution to the exact opposite, a chronological or a d active approach review, it felt like they reviewed all 200 plus exhibits that they him put into evidence in this case. at times, it was painful. that's when we were watching the jury, as kara said, they hung in, but i thought that was necessary don't as a prosecutor, don't leave anything on the table. if the judge will give you the time, if the jury says, i'll stay till 8:00 argue till 7509, and the weight the overwhelming weight of the evidence that was the prosecution approach. >> i mean, it was striking how different the two closing arguments were because michael cohen loomed over both of them, but in very different ways, todd blanche was trying to

basically eviscerate michael cohen and any credibility he had with these jurors repeatedly saying he lied to you and trying to make it personal almost for them. josh steinglass, the prosecutor, took a very different approach and he kind of had this very conversational style. he was almost incredulous at some of the arguments that todd blanche had made. he made no hesitation and turning back to point and todd blanche's direction or pointed donald trump, who almost never referred to as donald trump. he just referred to m is the defendant. the defendant. the defendant repeatedly and he was scuffing almost what todd blanche had said in his closing arguments and he would say, i'll get back to that ridiculous point later or they really want you to believe this, trying to create this idea that whatever todd blanche had said in his closing argument was just not believable for the weather that's the term motorcade leaving, which is notable because trump didn't speak leaving court, which he normally does. but the other thing that they tried to do with michael cohen that stood out to me because i was in there this afternoon as he was

in his lengthy closing arguments for the prosecution, as he was saying, this isn't all on michael cohen, the documents that we have here which he referred to as the smoking gun in this case, which is one has the math jotted down on how they would pay michael cohen back, didn't come from michael cohen. it came from jeff mcconney, a trump organization employee who as the prosecution noted, has no ax to grind with donald trump. >> i did think just reflecting back on the morning session where i was in the court the trump team they did present some things that were just beyond belief. i mean, the idea that no one in trump's orbit thought that the national enquirer running negative stories are positive stories about trump would influence the election in any way beyond belief, those point that was leading with becker, that was the whole point of the meeting. i mean, the idea that donald trump just as a person would not believe that. so look, the good news for the defense is that they don't have to prove this case beyond a reasonable doubt. it's not on them to do that, but it did make me wonder

some of those moments where maybe even some cases they were twisting the evidence in ways that did not actually comport with what the evidence actually was, in ways that they asserted things like, for example, they call the access hollywood moment. basically nothing burger in the campaign. again, a ridiculous assertion if you were, you were there, you were a human being and the united states of america, when it occurred, those moments, i think cut against their ability in some crucial ways. will it make or break this case? i don't know what part of the argument that they were trying to make to the to the jury is that michael cohen cannot be believed. michael cohen is the person who is the serial liar, the fabulous. and yet i think the prosecution tried to make a point when they got their turn and closing statements, you cannot also makes statements that are beyond belief and then have the jury want to believe you and disregard everything that michael cohen want to hear from arthur and i am a second, but for those of you who are in the courtroom, it's different

when you're inside versus what we on the outside in the morning, we're reading from our folks inside todd blanche's his closing statement felt meandering when you're just reading the text on the outside. we did it play meandering in the room and i'm wondering for the prosecution's closing, did it feel like five hours? >> it felt like more than five hours i'm very restless person, but i thought it was the right thing to do for them to use all that time. blanche is a meander. he is not a linear person. we saw this in his cross-examination of michael cohen, was that strategy? here's just lack of experience and it was a strategy because he wanted to hone in on all the places where there can be reasonable in the order. he thought of the difficulty of bruce. he wanted to go from stronger, less strong to weak as he hit them with the best shot but it did

meander at times, the jury does not. i think the jury does not like todd blanche. i think they prefer mo beauvais. they like susan necheles better. i don't think they're fond of your leg by the way, this jury that this is a jury that does not show a lot. >> so that tells me you have been analyzed and smile several times as steinglass was making his way. it did go on at length and there were some dry moments where he was going through the documents, but he also would pepper in these quotes, like the one where he said donald trump didn't pay a porn star or pay a lawyer, but he was paying a porn star and funneling think the money through an attorney when he was talking about he didn't go to the witness store to get michael cohen. he was making the point, this is who donald trump chose to surround himself with. so it was really long, but he had these little leinz and i saw some of the jurors smiling at some of steinglass as lines, which is a big deal because they don't have expressions typically only are there lots here for i

definitely going to defer to the people who are in the room because there's no replacement for that. i mean, i'm looking at it like our viewers watching the each individual update come up ordinarily, i would think a five-hour closing is outrageous. it goes against everything i was taught, goes against everything i've ever done. i never gave a closing anywhere near five hours. you lose the jury. it's a terrible idea, but hearing nor form say that the jury, first of all, they were asked, do you want to stay and indicated yes. and that they continued to pay attention. that makes a difference for me if you still have their attention, i don't think it's disastrous to do this. i agree based on what we were able to see, i thought todd blanche's closing did meander. i don't think manuring is a strategy. i think it's a fault. >> you can attack a prosecution case aggressively and effectively in a direct and compelling way. and to me, the whole argument about this had nothing to do with the campaign from six weeks ago in this case started struck me as a stretch and i think it remains a stretch now, under the evidence, i want to drop that, honestly, the whole part about you don't concede it explicitly just just give it

the back of the hand. stormy daniels denied this ever happened, right? hope hicks told you it was about the family focus on the documents and connecting trump to the documents. that's where the defense lies. that's where i think blanchette is better moments. >> it had a feel of throwing everything at the wall that might stick okay. >> so i'm going to take a page out of ellie's book i'm going to defer to the people in the courtroom, but i'm sitting here with three national anchors and all three of you know, it's all about editing right? you could go on, i could give you guys all rows. we're going to talk for three hours. you'll figure out something to say. it's all about editing it down and you'll ellie talked about his training. i was blessed to be trained in the brooklyn da's office i remember angela morella. i thought i gave a great summation. he's like shut up, shut up, arthur. i know if you're going on and on, but i was 26 years old, i was 27 years old, i was 28 years old. so i learned and it's honestly it's a similar skill set on television. you can't go on and on, you get this, you get 30 seconds, 15, and then you've got to count down. it's the same thing with the jury. you

have to be like, okay, there's a limited amount of time. i get that they're they're looking at them just because they are looking at them. you don't know where their brain is that well, that was a really good burger. i had a memorial de you don't know where they're thinking and where they're lapsing in and out. but abby, when you talk about losing credibility to me, that's the most important part. it's one thing for a jury not to like the lawyer and not to like have kumbaya out with the lawyer, but it's another thing to not believe him or think he or she is trying to sell them a bill of goods that just doesn't make any sense. and the example you use, i do agree with saying that that accident his hollywood thing was a nothing. i mean, i know that summer day sitting at home, it was not a bit of nothing. it was a big deal. yeah. i mean, there were so many moments like that they described here they were trying to poke holes in the recording of donald trump. >> fair enough. but the way that they tried to poke holes in it, i thought also really stretched credibility suggesting that trump didn't say things that you could hear him saying on the call, even

describing how the call ended inaccurately by saying that michael cohen, you couldn't hear michael cohen picking up the other call that's not at all what happened. he was recording let's phone received an incoming call which ended the recording. and so to look if you have an iphone you know how that goes and misrepresenting that to the jury, i think does not hurt care. i mean out the side the court. the other thing that one of the things he misrepresented was implying that well, the national enquirer doesn't matter because it's circulation was 350,000 at this time. when in truth the impact of the national enquirer story can be far beyond the number of actual subscribers who pay money to read the national enquirer or look at it even on the checkout stand, it has a ripple effect to other people do reporting based off yeah. >> i mean, one of the things that blanche had said was that the national enquirer had such a low subscriber rate compared to the new york times but then on closing arguments by the

prosecution, they said that that was kind of absurd, that everybody who's in a supermarket who checks out at the register there is going to walk past and see the headlines of the national enquirer remember david pecker had testified that he didn't want to get involved with the stormy daniels deal because he didn't want to do story about a porn star because of these record, because his tabloid is on the supermarket shelves and that's some of these supermarkets wouldn't want to see that. so certain only prosecution came back at that point by saying that even though this circulation may be lower than that of the new york times, that doesn't mean that the number of eyeballs that aren't happiness when everyone is checking out at the grocery store, they're still going to see that they tried to correct that part of it. and yeah, it's true if the national enquirer does have a truce story, then that would be something that other national organizations would follow and try to match. >> there was also a testimony during the trial that david pecker didn't even care what was inside the pages of the national enquirer. all he cared about was the front cover

because the impact of that checkout line and just people seeing that front cover that for him, was that such a huge priority? kara scannell. thank you. got to take a quick break. john berman joins us. he's been going through the transcripts of tonight's extended closing arguments. we'll talk about what could stand out for the jury. and later, journalist ronan farrow joins us, who's reporting on catch and kill, gave us such an early and clear window into the world. the jurors have been shown in this trial smile you, found it the feeling of findings, psoriasis can't filter out the real you. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only so tick to a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. and the chance that clear or almost clear skin it's like the feeling of finding yourself ready for your close-up are finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. >> once-daily. so tick two was proven better, getting more people clearer skins and the leading pill don't take if

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don't miss out on our fastest speed plans yet! switch to comcast business and get started for $49.99 a month. plus, ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. call today! your thing like a pro pain-free absorb been pro i learned thoughts on capitol hill and this just moments ago, closing arguments and the stormy daniels hush money trial wrapped up in a lower manhattan, the prosecution getting the lengthy last word nearly five hours worth tomorrow morning after hearing instructions from the judge jurors will have the case and the former president's fate will be in their hands, joining us. >> cnn's john berman. they've been going through the trial transcripts for us tonight. we mentioned this moment when judge merchan scolded trump's attorney todd blanche, how did that play on on the test? so you can right at the end of todd blanche is summation where he was once again saying that michael cohen is a liar. you can't convict just based on michael cohen a blank said cohen came in here, he raised his right hand and he lie to

each of you repeatedly? repeatedly. you cannot you cannot send somebody to prison. you could not convict somebody jaw steinglass, the prosecutor says objection. judge masan says, sustained. blanche then goes on. you cannot convict somebody based upon words of michael cohen. now, that was at the very end of the summation, the jury then left the room. they want on their lunch break, and there was a conference here in the judge scolded todd blanche for what he said here. he said, i'm going to give a curative instruction. i think that saying that was outrageous, mr. blanche, please have a seat for someone who it has been a prosecutor as long as you have ended defense attorney, as long as you have, you know that making a comment like that is highly inappropriate, it's simply not allowed, period it's hard for me to imagine how that was accidental in any way. it's also interesting that as soon as steinglass said objection. >> and it was sustained. todd blanche didn't need instruction about what the objection was about. he knew instantly what

he had said was inappropriate. right? i mean, because he corrected himself by just taking out the prison partner. i like to push the envelope in summation, but that's you can't say jail. >> you just you just can't say gel. you can say you use your common sense. people don't tell you to check, leave you come since outside. we all know what happens at the end of a trial that's not for you to decide. it's up for the judge, but you can't eat it. he can say jail. he didn't push the envelope. he tore the envelope and ripped it into little pieces, right? >> he said jail zhao wei know sure this saturday. >> yeah. no, that's a red line. you do not the rdas. >> why? that is a read lock as it is so powerfully prejudicial for the jury, but it's all of them in sand sentencing. >> that is the role of the judge will put telling them that you potentially you're sending the former prison united states should present. that's prejudicial. there's three jobs. the job of the jury

is to weigh the facts. the job of the judge is to instruct them on the loss so they can apply the law to the facts egn depending on the verdict, it comes back to the judge to sentence, but in defense of todd, i will say it seemed to me as soon as he said it, he knew he'd gone too far. he stopped himself. it was like a little hiccup. i think he just got carried away in the moment and it was not an intentional mistake. he slept seven seconds but he was so hard on michael cohen for his mistake when he did have them now that is not going to get unwrung. okay. i'm sorry. but it's not going to get unwrung because it's always been in the atmosphere. in this case ultimately, this jury is they're not stupid people. they understand that this case is about finding is

outside trump tower, a former president donald trump guilty of a felony, which would involve some kind of punishment. and i think that they know that todd blanche evoked it and put it back on the table. i don't think that there's anything that can be done to take that out of their mind a hard time. >> i have a hard time believing that it was inadvertent. i don't know. i'm just trying to extend the benefit of the doubt and i'll tell you why. at the southern district of new york prosecutor's office, work todd use to work where i used to work where alvin bragg use work. >> we were paranoid about exactly that happening. >> you did not want to defense layer, whoops, slipping in. if you convict, he'll go to jail or go to jail for decades or hogan, you'll separate him from his family until his kids your full full-grown. and i was so paranoid about it, i would say the judges right before closing, judge obviously they're not going to be mentioning the potential of prison here. judge, would always look at the defense like you're not doing that, right? defense are we got of course not. that is a serious overstep by todd blanche's lucky, it was only a curative and john and we'll get back to you because steinglass acted out a

conversation between cohen when trump and keeps your live bodyguard because this was that devastating moment when michael cohen was on the stand. todd blanche revealed or got pointed out that there was a 14-year-old who had been harassing michael cohen on the phone and cohen had called schiller or texted schiller about what can i do about this 14 year-old initially? >> cohen had testified that that phone call for which there is a record, that that phone call was with trump to tell him that the payment to stormy daniel's was going through. >> you were there for the testimony todd blanche elicited that it looks like there was a phone call at exactly that time with keith schiller. were they talked about this 14 year-old boy? and then cohen on the stand basically ended up saying, well, maybe i talked about both things. so josh steinglass, the prosecutor here, tried to show that you could talk about both things inside the length of the phone call, which was 96 seconds because they have a record for that. so what josh steinglass did is he goes out there before the jury today. any basically times in itself and he says let's try a little experiment. i will be cohen and he fakes a call here. hey keith, how's it

going? it seems like this prankster might be a 14-year-old kid. if i text you the number, can you call and talk to his family, see if you can let them know how serious this is it's not a joke uh-huh. >> yeah. >> alright thanks, pal. hey, is the boston hear you can you pass on the phone for a minute? i will wait just a couple of seconds and then he pauses and waits for schiller to fake hand the phone to make trump, and then he goes, hey boss, i know you're busy, but i just wanted to let you know that the other thing is moving forward. my friend keith and the other party that we just discussed its back on track. i'm going to try one last time to get our friend david to pay. but if it's not, it's going to be us to take care of it. uh-huh. yeah. all right. good luck in tampa. >> by when he time it was 49 seconds, which is way less than the 96 seconds of the actual sales. >> very surprised that this was allowed to happen because i felt like he injected hypothetical things that did not actually happen into the minds of the jury. that's kinda remarkable about it was actually a really strong moment

when you were in the room in court because josh steinglass held is his a fake phone up to his ear as you did this and he did i didn't do that. >> yeah. sorry. i would've told you beforehand, but and he did pause for a few seconds when he was saying, okay, wait to pass the phone to the boss. and it was actually a powerful moment in court because what he was trying to do was restore michael cohen's credibility from that moment a few weeks ago, the question is, of course, you know, the jury just had a week off du they remember that moment? was it distilled in their mind or was today actually more helpful? in making the case that multiple things could be we discussed on that call. and the point that he drove home after that was that the defense wants the jury to believe that michael cohen is coming in near to say anything he can to get trump convicted, and josh steinglass is saying, well, if he was, why wouldn't he have gone further than the moments where he said, actually trump denied to me having a relationship with stormy daniels or trump. did this don't recall about that conversation. who is saying michael cohen can forget things that doesn't mean he's lying to you the bit with the phone, is a good piece of stagecraft like i respect that i'm

envious of that i wish i would have done something like that as a prosecutor, but it's also a cheap gimmick that's not the point of what michael cohen got caught it. the point is not he couldn't possibly have discussed it's both things in a minute, 36 obviously, he could easily he could've the point is michael cohen never said a word about the text with the 14 year-old kid in the grand jury in his prior statements to the prosecutor on direct on direct, it was a very clean story. i just called donald trump. it was about stormy daniel's, then he gets caught. then you see him backtrack in real time. come up with this. oh, well, maybe it was both things. that's the point that goes to his credibility. they really it's a nice, not uberman, nice piece of stagecraft by the phone, i'm sorry. by the by the prosecutor, but to me, it's actually misdirection. >> john berman. thank you. everyone. stay with us. there's a lot more to discuss gonna be joined by the attorney of the man at the center of both closing arguments. michael cohen 13 million americans were affected. my identity theft in 2022. and the threats are more

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aimed a lot. their rhetorical ammunition and the credibility of michael cohen quoting the former president's attorney, todd blanche, saying, and the last thing i'm going to talk about that gives you a reasonable doubt is what i've been talking about for the past several hours. >> michael cohen he's the human embodiment of reasonable doubt literally join his now is michael cohen's attorney, danya perry, who is also a former federal prosecutor first all i'm wondering what you made of todd blanche, all the things he said about your client, about michael cohen on the stand today? were you surprised by any of it? >> i wasn't surprised because he gave a full preview of his argument during the lengthy cross-examination and it obviously was the theme that they hit over and over again, beginning with opening statements. and i think that's pretty much all the ammunition that he had. and he obviously edit very hard michael cohen just told me that by his count, at least he called mr. blanche, called mr. cohen lie or at five times? i don't know if anyone's actually counted that, but it sounds like it was

a lot of times and i think that that was a miscalculation, not just because i'm here just for my clients credibility. i think he was very credible, very honest, very forthright, very composed on the stand. and he gave no reason for the jury to believe that he wasn't telling the full and complete truth. actually, sometimes see overallocated to things that at some point the defense that so you lied to congress on this in this date and michael said, yes he hadn't. so he's over admitting to crimes and to bad conduct, if anything. i think he handled themselves very well on the stand. and it's it's no wonder that the defense went after him. >> they clearly were trying to rile him up at times when he was on the stand. he remained very calm, really throughout, which is sort of a sayyed michael cohen, a lot of people haven't seen people were surprised by that. >> there was that moment when

todd blanche got into the 14-year-old boy phone call, that michael cohen had not previously disclosed or talked about? >> i don't know if prosecutors had not caught it as that occurring before the keith schiller phone call, how how does how do you explain? the fact that michael cohen had not identified the involvement of the 14-year-old as part of that phone call? >> it's exactly as you say, he had been many years, right? that was in 2016. and he simply had forgotten what was a much less salient point from that conversation? once he was reminded of it, it did come back to mine. it had been a young prankster who basically made it impossible for mr. cohen to conduct his business. and so it did come back to him, but it wasn't the most impactful part of that conversation. and as soon as he was refreshed, he recalled it and truthfully and i think in a

very common sense way that oh yeah, that did happen. but look how much we're able to accomplish and other conversations. and i think the prosecutor made made a real really strong point of that is summation. and i think even the recorded conversation that related to karen mcdougal, which was less than 96 seconds in the important part of it also makes the point that a lot can be accomplished. and so i don't think that was the aha moment that todd blanche tried to make it out to be. and in fact, i think it kind of came back to hurt him once the evidence that yes, both these things can happen at the same time was brought back to bear. >> you said that you talked to michael cohen. i'm assuming it's today. i mean, what did he make of it was both sides talking about his credibility in the sense of obviously talking blanche called him the gloat, the greatest of all time in his closing argument, he did use the word liar. it seemed like every other five seconds and conjunction with michael

cohen's name. but then josh steinglass also address that with the jury and said, you know, we didn't go and pick him up from the witness stories on an ideal witness, it was essentially it is implication there saying that trump was the one who surrounded rid himself with michael cohen. i wonder what he made of that testimony today that was ali will back me up on this. >> that's a tried and true trick of the prosecution. they say, we would like to bring nuns and boy scouts to you as witnesses, but we're not the ones who pick them. it's the defendant who picks them as they're coconspirator so that was expected, and i think i have to hand it to the prosecution. a lot of times a prosecutors will eat eat that, and just say, look, we know he's not he's lied a lot and he's done this in that here. i think they were really honorable in supporting him and all the different ways in which he was corroborated, in which also the jury could count on the fact that he was now telling the truth, that he has turned a corner, as he said, i

think and a part of the testimony that was really emotional and really impactful, and i watched the jury listening to michael cohen talk about his journey and about but how we came to this place that has really cost him and his family so much. >> you're representing michael cohen, but but you also know todd blanche. what did you make of him saying to the jury, don't send donald trump to prison based on michael cohen's words, which he was later reprimanded by the judge over yeah, la la and i have seen that trick also many times are a lot of tricks here, right? i mean, people who have been around the courtroom will see them and it's a classic jury nullification argument. they are trying a little back door trick, right? to tell the jury like, don't don't put this guy in prison. this is where hill and up, particularly in a case of this magnitude, and that's so unprecedented when you have a former president and a presidential candidate, they, he wanted to back-channel to the, to the

jury that the import of what they might be doing by convicting him and it's totally against the rules. the judge was right to admonish him and he thought, why not go for it? because if we if we get an acquittal, we're done and if i may as well just just just go for it. he's not gonna be reversed donald john. >> yeah. i know you can't talk about the preparation in the attorney-client privilege that you did with michael, but i do want to ask you about one signature moment that really stood out for me in cohen's testimony and his connection with the jury and maybe you'll tell us how they came to be. i noticed instead as he got comfortable on the stand he would turn away from hoffinger, who was examining him and talk directly to the jury and the jury would focus on him almost like they were having a conversation together. was that something just tell us one thing. was that something you've practiced in prep?

>> well, i appreciate you noting that and anderson, i appreciate your noting his demeanor on the stand. and as you say, that's not the michael cohen everyone knows but i will say yes, we spent a lot of time in preparation, but this was truly all heartfelt. i do believe he's turned a corner and he's a different person and then the michael cohen that you heard on those recordings or even that he the way he presents sometimes on his podcast, there was a moment where michael was very cool and his demeanor was understated. and then there was a moment where that would todd blanche played oh my god i was there for was like, oh my i was like, i hadn't heard the podcasts. i was like, oh my god, that's a persona, you know, he takes on this drama. you've been on a thought, you've been on his podcast. i've been on his back as he, you know, he presents in a certain way, he's an entertainer. but that's not the michael cohen that showed up for court is the michael

cohen who did have a change of heart and decided as much as it put him in harm's way and his family, that he was going to wear the white hat and do what he thinks is the right thing. danya perry. thank you so much. really good to have you appreciate it. everyone else stay with us. just say we're going to dive deep from the stormy daniels payment catch-and-kill well, scheme at the heart of this case was someone who knows the details very well. ronan farrow is investigative reporting. this has been extraordinary over the years. will be here this is carbonic and this is how you can sell us your car. visit carvajal answer a few questions, will give you a real offer, then set a time for us to pick it up. >> and pay you on the side, sell your car that easy way. with carmona. >> let's get started bill. where's your mask? >> i really tried sleeping with it, everybody. now, i sleep with inspire. >> inspire. >> no mass just sleep learn

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help us sleep better and better please speak number does that 94% of smart sleepers report better sleep now say 50% of the speed number limited edition smart ben plus spectral financing shop now at sleep number.com when you're the leader is disaster clean up and restoration. how do you make like it never even happened, happened rough like never even happened i'm sara marie and washington and this is cnn welcome back. >> one return focus to what prosecutors claim is powerful evidence that exist beyond the testimony michael cohen, they were speaking in the testimony former national enquirer publisher david pecker, and evidenced detailing what became known as the catch and kill scheme involving among other stormy daniels and karen mcdougal's something. >> our next guest has reported extensively on. we're joined now by journalist ronan farro, author of the 2019 bestseller,

catch and kill, which explored the hush money scheme, the center of this trial and revealed lot about it running. so the prosecution, they called pecker, the former ceo of the national enquirer's parent company, utterly devastating. they call this testimony and that it eliminates the whole notion that this was politics as as usual, to you, is pecker among the most important of all the witnesses called i think one of the candy is moves the prosecution made and how they built this case was to emphasize pecker to the extent that they have and also to put him first, you have to understand, although the charges are about these payments to stormy daniels and the question of intent behind them, whether and how they were concealed. >> and obviously in the very protracted close today from steinglass, the prosecutor, we got a tiktok of that in almost brutalizing detail that said the prosecution needed to recontextualized all of that with the requisite knowledge that this was part of, as you

said, what they say is a catch-and-kill scheme and effort to subvert the election hatched in that meeting that they talked about so much would that pecker was present four in trump tower, especially in light of the fact that the later case about the stormy payments specifically had to deal with this double-edged sword michael cohen being important connective tissue that they were conveying to the jurors. and michael cohen having some evidence questions about his credibility and his checkered history in the public eye that of course we saw the defense really seize on today, especially in light of all of that anderson pecker became very important and the argument that the prosecution made today, two jurors into the public that pecker was really their star witness, rather than michael cohen became very important in todd blanche when in his sort of meandering closing statement went down this road, he talking about catch and kill saying essentially the karen mcdougal wasn't catching kids hill sort of raising questions that does catch and kill even exist well,

to give you a sense of that, i was in touch with sources around my reporting on ami than the parent company of the national enquirer or just today. >> and the prevailing opinion within those circles, including senior ami folks who were really involved all did an oversight role as this play this scheme was playing out. the prevailing opinion seems to be that it's strains credulity to accept the defense's argument here that donald trump just had no knowledge of this. and today, todd blanche argued, well, to assert that donald trump always knew about his business dealings. the prosecution to deal with decades old books saying he's a micromanager, but it's really more than that. this is a clear cut case where his representative, michael cohen, was doing something quite extraordinary as an active loyalty and one piece of evidence after another, what the prosecution called a mountain of evidence seems to suggest that he was behind so the question really here is not

whether there's an evidence surface level case. it's going to hinge on. is it beyond a reasonable doubt? and can they get all of those jurors on board? >> now that some time has passed. i'm wondering what you make of the importance of stormy daniels testimony in this trial? >> well, stormy daniels was a really volatile courtroom moment and i think like michael cohen putting her on the stand was something of a risky maneuver for prosecutors. it was a double-edged sword it certainly diverted the case they were making into tawdry underlying facts that aren't really germane to the charges being asserted. but they made a calculation that that was important, anderson, it was important to establish that donald trump was in a state of urgency and desperation when this scheme was undertaken that he really needed to conceal this in that particular window of time in order to remain electable, especially with women voters. that's also a course, why they fought to introduce as much as they could about the access hollywood tape

and only 62 a limited extent, but the prosecution is hoping that all of that will add up to juror saying, okay, we get why this scheme was undertaken. >> it was also one of the things that todd blanche spent a fair amount of time today on essentially saying, well, that just wasn't the case, that the access hollywood tape really wasn't as big a deal is most people would probably remember it being or that these things were not as important as the prosecution is making them out to be and i think hope hicks this testimony was like stormy daniels, quiet, pivotal in conveying to jurors or at least prosecutors attempting to convey to jurors that that's not quite right, that this was a campaign and a circle of people around donald trump ever thrust into crisis, and that there was a reason he's in for him to undertake this extraordinary effort to in the prosecution's terms, subvert the election, whether jurors will care what and whether the

public will care as they process the information from this case. >> that's another question, but i do think in terms of making what was a pretty difficult case on the prosecution? since part it this could have gone sideways and a lot of ways that it didn't they really they cleared a lot of the hurdles they were looking to ronen great to talk to you, ronan farrow. >> thank you so much. >> great. thanks, anderson. all right. >> more now, with the panel do you think the jury, arthur fully realizes the catch-and-kill scheme? >> it is as tawdry. >> i mean, todd blanche was essentially saying today that this is just how campaigns are, that this is just sort of business as usual. >> i have to five hours for the prosecution if he didn't do a good job somewhere in there explaining it, then shame on him. i think so you know, there are times in the trial when you have to have guts as a defense attorney to stand up after prosecution witnesses saying, i have no questions then in summation, you see, you know, why didn't asked one question can we dan has any questions? she doesn't matter. she

doesn't matter. they only called her to embarrass him. they only called her to prejudice you. it doesn't matter if they fooled around and theta i'm full run. you don't want she really is. no, you heard it was her testimony, folks. she's an extortionist. she's an absolute extortion. is she wanted money she wanted money for her story. the same way she wanted money for sex or whole line should point out that todd blanche did not say it doesn't matter whether or not this happened. he said my client denies it yeah i don't for his i disagree i disagree with that strategy and that's why as a defense attorney, in my retainer agreement to this day, it says the attorney shall determine the strategy of the case. so with the exception of whether the client testifies or not decline over pulls me. but in terms of what i say or what i don't say, they put in, they sign on the dotted line. i determine how we question or what. >> so you're an attorney who actually does have a retainer agreement anything over 3,500

bucks. >> i got it. that's the law in new york state, and that line in arthur's agreement is one of the reasons he's not representing donald trump, i'm going to take to take the fifth, but not what there are all these aphorisms among trial lawyers, slim to win, less is more slim to win, slim to win means shrink your case down, remove everything that is not essential, do not keep the jury be until 8:00 it's it's these are theories of discipline, but the problem is that when you have donald trump for a client, there's plenty of evidence that he makes demands. we had reporting caitlin had reporting that he was pushing for robert costello. that was an absolute disaster for his case apparently he those of you who are stella mentioned in a paisley, it was mentioned castula came up today. >> yeah. i mean, it wasn't a

lot sides the defense mentioned him to very briefly to talk about how he michael cohen claimed that they didn't have much of a relationship. they didn't have a legal relationship and that was not the case. >> it was a very far very didn't they say side of the jury like, well you heard his testimony, so you know what that is? i don't what? >> lu that one of the things sitting in the courtroom, just listening to all the various parts of this case. >> is that sometimes it does feel like you need to be a lawyer to sort through some of the things that are being discussed here. and that's not what they've got. they have a jury except for those two lawyers, but they have a jury of just regular people and i do wonder sometimes how this is all going to go down because it is, it, it's gotten in the weeds both because the defense has brought things to the table that they shouldn't have. and also because the prosecution has to it's gotten complex

okay to that i'm not sure who that's going to benefit at the end of the de to build on that point what's going to happen? the first thing tomorrow morning is the judge is going to spend an hour plus reading a 50, 60 page jury instruction. you want to talk about weeds. just wait for tomorrow. it's going to get deep. and then because it's new york state, the written jury instruction does not go back into the jury room with them, so we're going to see notes throughout the week saying, hey, can you explain to us again the third element of the second crime so you're right, abby, the whole trick here is taking it out of the weeds and making it comprehensible to a human being. >> more new, new details skews me from inside cord coming up. also your story, daniels attorney and get his take on closing arguments plus the pivotal moment ahead. for the former president with jury getting the case tomorrow morning some people would rather crash and slowdown there was a golden age for motorcycles and took my breath away i both his club, this is

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pain-free absorb been pro were how solomon in new york is cnn it is just before 9:00 p.m. here in new york, the end of nearly 12 hour day for jurors in the first, the former