house solomon in new york and this is cnn good morning. welcome to cnn special coverage of the trump hush money trial. i'm jake tapper in washington with my colleague kaitlin collins in new york right outside the courthouse. right this minute, the jury in donald trump's criminal hush money trial is back to work there currently having testimony from former national enquirer chief david pecker, and former or witness michael cohen, read back to them and those 12 men hot nights will ultimately decide whether the former president of the united states is guilty of felony crimes. this would be the first time in the history of the united states of america that, that happened, mr. trump is in

court. he been told he has to be there. he is awaiting the decision earlier. judge juan merchan read specific sections of his instructions to the jury also at their request, the jury also asked for headphones, a specific type of headphone to use with their laptop that contains the physical evidence or evidence of it. this morning? >> yeah. and that jury, who asked to those headphones is also right now rehearing the testimony that came from david pecker. he has of course, the tabloid king but they left yesterday. they asked to rehear four key pieces of that testimony, and that is what is happening inside that courtroom, right now. that includes michael cohen and david pecker's a counts of a 2015 trump tower meeting. pecker is 2016 phone call with trump about the former playboy playmate karen mcdougal. and also pecker's testimony about not finalizing the payment with trump is going to pay pecker's company bag after they had purchased karatay goals life rights about her alleged affair with donald trump, paula reid,

and kristen holmes we're here with me and pull it. this is such an interesting part. note trump is causing a note to attorney todd blanche, who passed him and one in return, trump is hunching over to read it before placing table. that is typical for anyone who's it was wondering what they could be talking about. trump is basically, i would love to read all the sticky notes that he sends to todd blanche, if you watch multiple times staring someone's testimony, he would send all these sticky notes todd blanche is white. it's not clear what this is about. maybe he's born, he's been there for several hours already listening to the testimony. they've already heard heard before. >> but it is a key moment where the jury has now sent back to these three notes with multiple requests on each of them. >> it does appear that they are getting close to the end of rereading during this testimony. they're approaching the final section and then that will be the end of what the jury has asked for and they'll we expect them do a back into the jury room and continue these delivery yeah. for now until the next buzzer, the next question it's likely without more about eat and nod to trump interacting with todd blanche trump's behavior has decorum

during 95% of this trial has been much better than expected. >> and of course, the expectations rosette based on his at times completely inappropriate behavior during the civil litigation where he had outbursts, he would mutter under his breath. he and his lawyer to get into it with a judge, but working with todd blanche again, this is a criminal case, but it's a credit to todd blanche of course, a little to trump as well. it has been completely different. i mean, there was one outburst during stormy daniels testimony the judge admonished him over that we haven't had an issue. yeah, it's all those notes went back and forth. part of that is client management, you have a cage tiger in there. nobody's happy to be a criminal defendant nobody to have his mood it's up to todd, blanche and all and a lot of ways to keep him from having any kind of outbursts that could jeopardize his freedom because the possibility of jail is out there. he violates specifically the gag order will and we quoted are we counted them yesterday. i think he had posted 40 or so times on truth social as he was because this jig noted there in the intro, he is required prior to stay inside the courthouse. he

doesn't have to be an actual courtroom when the jury is not in there, they're deliberating, but they've a separate room. they go and do but he doesn't to be inside the courthouse in case and note comes down in case of verdict comes down. >> yeah. they were wondering what was going to happen when that buzzer went off. i mean, i think they are in the same position that all of us are what is going to happen now, what's waiting for any kind of shoots? get a job. i will say don junior was with him yesterday taping some tiktoks, putting them online of him putting out those mean tweets saying they were drafting them through. so you can see how they're spending think their time when he's back, there waiting, he took a video of him trump posted on truth social? >> yes. >> while they were sitting in court you interested and trump said he was proudly found junior for all he does on social media. and what he's been posting are sometimes misquoted because i actually talked to some of the people that he's he's quoted, they're actually not quotes that they said he takes parts he likes and puts that on truth, social, but it's all a defensive this case. it's he has been complaining about that we saw as he was entering the court this morning, which is interesting because yesterday, when the jury instructions are about to read first-time trump

intercourse and had nothing to say until he was leaving to go in that hold room where he's been complaining about the case and one thing i note, i should note that the trump has been you know, getting wrong when he's talking about is that he's been arguing the jury doesn't have to agree on the underlying or they don't do come to a unanimous decision on the charges here. they do have to come so union as miss decision on these 34 charges what doesn't have to be unanimous is the underlying crime that was committed exactly. >> this is a bit of misinformation that's been out there and something he's campus i'm trying to amplify the idea that they have to be they don't have to be unanimous. let's be clear. they have to be unanimous on the 34 counts of falsifying business records. unanimous it's either as to acquittal or to a conviction. if they can't reach some sort of unanimous decision, then is a deadlock on that count all of those counts of falsifying business records are charged which is a felony, because prosecutors argue that all of this was part of a conspiracy to interfere with the election. they've put forth three possible laws that could have been broken there that would elevate this to a felony but it's not charged for that law.

they don't have to prove that law. they don't have to be unanimous on which one of those laws he broke. so again, they're taking something that is truly complicated and actually unprecedented i'm just spinning this information and of course this is all going on as we'll see, how long these deliberations go for ultimately, jake. yeah, katelyn, thanks so much and my panels back with me. so right now question three from the panel in terms of the transcripts that they wanted read back to read back to them, i had to do with david pecker's testimony about that trump tower meeting. and then number four, which they're doing right now, has to do with michael cohen's version of that trump tower meeting. i don't think that they've read that yet. have they? and so i don't think we've read it. i mean, so let me do that if i can. this is the part that yeah, the part that about michael cohen testifying about this trump tower meeting through which the prosecution says the jury needs to view this entire case from the big get from the view of that trump tower meeting so what here it

is, this is the testimony of michael cohen from may 13, 2024. prosecutor hoffinger, could you tell the jury, please what was discussed and what was agreed to at that meeting? cohen, what was discussed was the power of the natural i did read this was deny the power of the national enquirer in terms of being located at the cash register of so many supermarkets and bodegas that if we can place positive stories about mr. trump, that would be beneficial if we could place negative stories about some of the other candidates that would also be beneficial. i read this at the beginning of the thing so in any case, elie of these four excerpts of the testimony that they are having read, is there one that you think is more important than the other? >> i understand karen's making sure that we don't interpret specifically that the jury is ready to convect because they're going through all these parts of the prosecution's case. >> got it. lesson learned, but they are going through parts of the prosecution's case. yeah. the most important part to me is this august 2015 meeting because first of all, the jury asked to hear testimony from two different participants in that meeting, david pecker and michael cohen and their

accounts by enlarge are consistent, are similar and mutually reinforce one another. second of all, this is where joshua steinglass, the ada, asked the jury to begin when he gave them the story, he did what prosecutors often want to do, especially when it's a complex interwoven story like this. he told it in a chronological narrative fashion. this is where i would have started. this is where steinglass started, and the jury's interested in this. and if i can look ahead, if the jury continues in this and they seem to be asking for read backs of evidenced tracking that timeline. i think the next thing we might expect to see is very detailed requests for tests tom one, when they start getting into the store, the access hollywood tape, and then the stormy daniel's. >> so they just read this in cord more from the redirect of pecker. so this is more from the prosecution asking pecker question and you testified on tuesday that it was your objective to keep the august 2015 meeting confidential. this is the trump tower meeting yes. pecker says, i think he said highly highly confidential, right yes. >> that's correct. said pecker and you wanted to keep the

meeting as quiet as possible. i think you use those words to pecker i did. meanwhile, in the courtroom, trump is continuing to pass notes to todd blanche's his defense attorney. the latest one he wrote something thing on a handing it back up three prosecutors are also in there. of course steinglass colangelo's hoffinger, each reading the transcripts from the individual binders, elliott so and one, the wind to keep the meeting secret is obviously important. >> prosecutors would point to that as knowledge of guilt or knowledge of criminality, it's not it's more circumstantial evidence something prosecutors point to also write in the full transcript of the trial, which was three weeks long or four weeks long right before that excerpt that you just read a moment ago from the cohen meeting, the question was now some sometime after the announcement in june and about august 2015, did you and mr. trump meet with david pecker at trump tower to discuss what ami it could do for the campaign. michael cohen says, yes, man, the prosecutors in this case want to say the word campaign

as much as they can to show that's in the service. so they can see it was on the campaign rab, not his marriage, not as married yeah. which both can be true. certainly this was embarrassing conduct, at least as alleged to have happened or even if it didn't, the mere rumor of having had these kinds of sexual dalliances could be embarrassing, but it's that campaign nexus that prosecutors and certainly in, i guess, two or three of these of. these excerpts did try to get to another snippet. they just read. this comes from emile bove as cross-examination of david pecker, aim of at beauvais is one of trump's attorneys question. this is again, david pecker questions. so before the august 2015 meeting, the meeting at trump tower, you made a decision that it made sense for ami to run articles about bill and hillary clinton right? again before the meeting yes. said pecker. those articles were negative, right? yes. said pecker. so as easy for you to say during the august 2015 meeting that you would continue to do that, right? yes. said pecker. >> that was no issue for you?

no. said pecker. >> we talked yesterday about things that were mutually beneficial, that that was entirely beneficial to ami that was entirely beneficial to ami steinglass that the prosecutor objects. >> the court sustains it running those stories were beneficial to ami, correct pecker running the stories are beneficial to am i correct? >> and doing what was good for ami was standard operating procedure says yes. and then there's another part of this this is the cross-examination by the defense of david pecker. >> i want to stick with the august 2015 meeting. okay. again, this is the trump tower meeting between trump michael cohen and tabloid king david pecker. you see a charcoal rendering of him on your screen right there. at that meeting, the concept of catch-and-kill was not discussed, correct? pecker, that's correct. and there was no discussion of a financial dimension to any agreement at that meeting, correct? yes. that's correct. karen, your thoughts? yeah. so that's what i'm

cross-examination with the defense is trying to show there is that it wasn't necessarily about the campaign. and that is part of their theory. what they're trying to do is show look, this is yes, this happened, but this is what am i did. this is their business model. this had nothing to do with donald trump they said nothing to do with the campaign. this is what they do two make money and sell magazines. and so that is their theory of the case. and that's obviously what happens on cross-examination. >> and what do you think you know that piece of cross-examination doesn't actually bother me much from the prosecution's point of view because ms >> meeting is the starting point. and so the cross-examination was while you didn't discuss financial compensation or anything like that? and the answer from pecker was no, we didn't put that happens later. so it's a good piece of cross-examination , but it doesn't worry give me as the prosecutor, i think the point you want the jury to take away from that meaning is they got together, they agreed we're going to try to have donald trump's back for the campaign. it develops later. all right. we're going to squeeze it in a very quick break. stay with us. we continue to cover the trump

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their deliberations behind closed doors they were inside the courtroom to hear back from court reporters who were reading aloud key portions of the testimony that they had questions about. we don't know if it was one juror, several, or all of them that one it hear all of this and note was passed to the judge three nodes actually asking for portions of the jury instructions to be read back, as well as key parts of david and michael cohen's testimony. and we are doing a lot of tea leaf reading with what this means of what the jury is saying behind closed doors and where they are in these deliberations, i should note, judge, more sean has just left the bench here to help us sort through that is trial a jury consultant, carolyn cook in carolyn, it's great to have you because obviously we have so many questions about what this could mean, what the jury is asking about what does it say to you that they wanted to hear one, some of these instructions and also key parts of david pecker and michael cohen's testimony about that same meeting a trump tower in august of 2015 well, i agree

with what you're all saying about we're all just reading the tea leaves and the jurors are going in sequential order. if i am going to read the tea leaves and i'm the defense, i would be a little concerned because they're out of the gate, they're not looking for reasonable doubt evidence i would be paranoid about that, of course, is just the second day or the first day that they ask the questions and so if those are the only the questions that are asked, that would be concerning, i do think this jury is smart enough to know that all eyes are on them, so they i would think that they will ask questions consistently throughout. >> and i think reading the tea leaves might get a little easier depending on the themes of those questions. >> when you say that if you were on the defense, you might be a little paranoid. what do you mean well, you know, there's two ways to go about this case and if you in a way,

what makes his case very unique is that the jury could acquit or convict in both roots are really simple because on the prosecution sayyed the theory is quite simple. >> they had a plan they executed the plan. there were bumps in the plan, but ultimately trump reimburses. the jury. so if the jury comes out of the gate asking questions not looking for the reasonable doubt aspects of the claim, but looking for the corroboration aspects of the claim that would worry me my if i was sitting in the hot seat, that would worry me yeah. and just to note, we just saw donald trump leaves the courtroom with his legal team and his entourage that has been joining him inside the courthouse the last several days. he's not actually leaving the courthouse though because he is required to stay here in case the jury sits down another node, or potentially a verdict, and carolyn, what i

was thinking about as they were reading back david pecker's testimony, there were in key moments in that, but it also shows you the importance of objections here, because when you're listening to that testimony inside the courtroom and trump's attorney objected it's to where the prosecution is taking this case or vice versa. >> it doesn't seem to make a difference in the moment because the jury is still heard it. >> they were still there and present before but when they're asking to have it re-read to them six weeks later. obviously, those those questions and those answers aren't included in the read back. so moments that may have it actually happened in real time they're not having their memory refresher on that because it was it's not in the record and that's a good point. >> and the other thing that's everybody's talking about these jurors are able to take notes and one thing i've noticed in my professional career is that sometimes the most copious note-taker then becomes the most persuasive

juror in the jury room. and the jurors almost defer to that person as having their own transcript of what happened in real time. and so for the sake of time, the jury behind closed doors, those jurors are going to remind each other of the facts and corroborate those facts with their own notes. and so that's going to be a big piece of what's going on that nobody is going to be able to speculate or read those particular tles. but but there's some truisms about juries and they they're usually true even though this is no ordinary case, but jurors almost always simplify. they want to come up with the simplest solution to a complex scenario. and it usually makes sense they really want to follow the rules. so the rules that the judge sets force fourth, for them to follow. for the most part, they're going to follow those. and then everybody talks about there could very easily be a holdout.

it's very hard in real life for jurors to be that holdouts. so again, i think this jury is going to be conscious of the need to be have some consensus. and i think they're going to work hard towards that goal on their own without having to be one over the head with instructions, carolyn, what you just said, what you just said was so interesting but the juror who's taking notes, if there's one who takes copious amounts of notes, that the others will rely on that person when they are back inside that room because as soon as the judge started rereading in the instructions, we did see at least one juror based on our reporters inside the courtroom, begin taking notes. and so are you saying that you often see them kinda turn to them and kind of trust so then since it since they're the ones who actually wrote down what the judge was repeating well, you know, jury dynamics are really interesting and that's another truism out of 12 people, you're not going to kept equal participation amongst all 12. >> and so i've just ee2, the

note-taker is the person who usually has a lot of interests in fine in keeping track as accurately as possible. but the other reality of the jury system and all humans can make decisions this way, people pick and choose what's important to them. and in this case, there are ample examples of reasonable doubt. and there are other examples that would help support conviction. and so i think that's what makes this case so scary for both sides here is michael cohen when it's kind of like if you compare to the oj case where you had that dna, you think dna was really strong enough to sway the jury and it wasn't michael cohen's lies these are no ordinary lives and jurors don't see liars like this in their daily affairs. but his lies might not be the embodiment of reasonable doubt. and again, we'll see, we'll see yeah, we shall say the

copious notes. >> it sounds like my chemistry class from freshman year of college, we were please rely on the one person who is paying close closeted and carolyn cook. thank you for sharing some insight on what it's like inside that jury room and stay with us because we are now continuing to monitor this as seven men and five women are back inside that jury room. we were now about 6.5 hours, roughly of these deliberations since the jury got the case from judge merchan, we are following every moment waiting to see that buzzer goes off inside that courtroom again this is cnn's a special live coverage. >> not able as possible. >> number was mavericks cupboards begins tonight at 7:30. nba western conference finals presented by at&t on tnt with western conference finals, old cast on truth, men tell us when they use just for men to eliminate gray, there's a

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eva mckenna in washington and this is cnn and right now, donald trump's fate is in the hands of 12 new york city jurors as they continue their deliberations in a manhattan courthouse earlier this morning, judge juan merchan read back a portion of his instructions at the jury's request, and moments ago the jurors heard back, read to them testimony from david pecker and from michael cohen about a meeting they had with donald trump in 2015 at trump tower, in which trump allegedly said they would all work together to handle any salacious stories about him that might emerge. >> let's bring in will scharf. he's a trump attorney who was just in the courtroom, also a republican candidate for attorney general in missouri. i will good to see you, so i want to get your take on the jury's request. for rereading the

instructions. we know the instructions are incredibly important to their deliberations. and of course, the outcome of their case you're in the room of what do you make of this part of the instructions being re-read to the jury? >> well, a lot of what the jury just heard relates to evidentiary inferences that they're allowed to make and then obviously they also asked to hear david pecker's testimony read back to read the tea leaves a little bit. one possible reason for the specific requests they've made is that they may have already made a decision that they consider michael cohen cohen to be deeply not credible and if that's the case, i think this case appears to be on life support and some of the jurors may be looking for a way out, a way to convict without relying on michael cohen's testimony overall, i think that's very favorable for our team i think that's a very good sign and most of all, i'm just enthusiastic about the fact

that the jury seems to be taking its duties very seriously. they're considering the law, they're considering the evidence. >> we believe if they do that, they'll end up at a just verdict here, which is an acquittal. absolutely. on the idea that the jury's is taking the job seriously. one of the pieces, one of the instructions the judge merchan read yesterday, i don't know if it was re-read today was the idea that michael cohen is considered an accomplice. and therefore, his testimony alone is not sufficient. they need to have other backing for his testimony, whether it is the testimony of other individuals like david pecker or physical evidence such as the checks are the ledgers or whatever. >> how did you and the defense team and mr. to trump, how did you all take that in basically, the judge was saying, you can't go by michael cohen's testimony alone one of the

judge's instructions, jake also related to the fact that if they witnesses is not truthful on the stand, that the jury can effectively just completely ignore that witness or rule that witness out as they evidentiary value of that witness. >> overall, i think those instructions are quite favorable to us so we'll see how things proceed. but so far we're we're pretty excited about the way that jury deliberations have proceeded so far. >> obviously, whatever viewers out there think of donald trump, it is not fund to be on trial, it is not enjoyable to be a defendant. it is not particularly delightful to be told that you have to sit inside the courthouse until a verdict comes down how is mr. trump doing on day two of deliberations? >> he is irrepressible. he's got boundless energy on. i think he feels good. i think he's ready to have justice done in this court, which again we believe would be a verdict of acquittal. >> what is the legal team doing right now? do you think in all

likelihood to prepare for all possible scenarios, are they preparing? i'm not an attorney, so forgive me for my ignorance, but would the defense team already have an appeal ready to go? based on a possible conviction if there were to be a conviction here, which we believe would be a gravely unjust verdict. >> we would speedily appeal to the new york appellate division, potentially the new york court of appeals polls as well. and we'll take that step if we get there. but so far, we think that appears to be a highly unlikely outcome here. >> part of the judge's instructions to the jury included the distance thanks. in between a felony and misdemeanor. when it comes to the falsification of business records, what does that difference look like in this case legally? >> well, as you know, jake, a misdemeanor under this business records fraud statute would have been time barred here. it

would have been passed the statute of limitations alvin bragg's alvin bragg's team has essentially converted misdemeanor offenses into felony offenses, alleged misdemeanor offenses, i should say by claiming that the business this records fraud was intended to cover up an underlying illegality. this is highly unusual in new york practice. it's a very novel use of this statute. and i think the jury instructions had to accommodate the fact that we're in somewhat unprecedented legal territory here in terms of the use of this particular statute. >> all right. will scharf. thank you so much. hope you have a nice day. stay with us. we're watching de two of jury deliberate operations in donald trump's hush money cover-up trial. will you run a squeezing a quick break? we'll be right back as we're trying to spy on us. >> we were spying on them i'm sorry, frank this is a war. but secret was secrets and spot a nuclear game premier sunday at

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catch and kill stories about donald trump related as he was running for the 2016 campaign. as you know, donald trump is just posted should on truth social and asked if anyone can believe that our government would be spending tens of millions of taxpayer dollars on prosecuting this ridiculous case. and all caps. he says, i did nothing wrong and claims to testimony in court was amazing. four the defense he posted that right. as he was going into that room and kristen, what's interesting here is one thing that the jury asked for that didn't get a lot of attention was asked her headphones in this case, they even it specifically said what kind of headphones they have. they would like to add because they have a laptop inside that room with them, that two jurors are kind of in charge of navigating. and it has all the evidence exhibits on it. and of course, we don't know what it is that they are trying to listen to angel of these headphones, but we did hear a lot of critical pieces of audio during this case. i've just thinking of michael cohen's podcasts and excerpts of data. the defence use michael cohen's recording of this conversation surreptitious

according to his conversation with donald trump, which the defense framed in a negative light because it was a lawyer recording his client. but what the prosecution is using to say, here's what donald trump said about these conversations. >> michael cohen, one of the most critical parts of that audio was it established a relationship between michael cohen and donald trump in which they actually had a discussion relating to what's at the crux of this case are not at the crux of this case, but a hush money payment essentially, that was really the first time that there was any kind of evidence backing some what michael cohen was saying. a lot of what he said was just based on his own experience now, the defense, as you said, they tried to undermine it, say that a lawyer shouldn't be recording his calls. but the other part of what the defense tried to do is talk about how that tape might have been edited and what they tried to focus on was that it cut off while they were in the middle of this conversation of donald trump himself has seized on that, saying, i was just about to say something really good, which obviously true trump fashion. there. but the

defense tried to say that they michael cohen might have altered this tape in some way, the prosecution saying that was absolutely not true, but this did become part of the defense's case. days because of this critical piece of audio. >> yeah. i mean, the prosecution even brought on someone who extracted the audio from michael cohen's phone to talk about. he was cross-examine. that's where they were raised he's in questions up the gap that and that phone call, but it is interesting that the jury clearly wants to be able to listen to pieces of this is there inside that room. it really also shows just how meticulously they're going over the evidence very clearly, they're not just walking in there, kinda take his drop hole there. clearly going through what they what they heard in the courtroom. >> yeah. everybody wants to know are how long is it going to take to get a verdict. but if you think get about this, you've 12 people, right? because there's your headphones, these are not speakers. the judge even asked you sure. you don't with gears, okay. you want to add funds individually, listening, potentially, maybe not everyone, but several people, maybe listening to this piece of evidence, think of all the evidence has been injured produced over the past seven

weeks at this really could take a while, but it reminds people of how this process works. i mean, it's, it's pretty remarkable if you think about all 12 people having to go through all of this evidence and then come to a consensus on 34 different counts. again, i think the headphone request more than anything else suggests to me that this could take days. >> yeah. well that's key because the question is, how long does this take? we have no idea obviously, but if they just weren't getting this spent over an hour of this morning having this red backs to them. they're just now really in the jury room for the first time today. >> yeah. they're having their conversations and going through is really interesting. i spoke to somebody who had been injured, another high profile case. >> and what they told me is that anything you see outside of the jury room is not reflective of what's actually going on inside of the jury room. even one of the things i reported yesterday was that some of these people who had gone on with donald trump to the courthouse had reported back to trump's team what they saw the jury doing. and one of them, it said they were getting favorable looks, and this person but none of that is

really any kind of indication of anything someone could just be being polite or they could actually be trying to do the opposite of how they really feel because people don't know how to act in this kind of situation. so they might act one way or another. so none of that is indicative, goes to all of what we're doing and what donald from steam husband doing which is trying to decipher anything, read any sort of tea leaf, the end of the day is this person said, you never know what's going on behind that door. >> such an important caveat i talked to an attorney also yesterday who represented a politician and a case based on what the jury was asking, he thought okay. and i won't say their name told me i could disclose who they're representing, but they they were like, okay, we'll prepare for a conviction. this is going to happen, then the jury came back and they were acquitted so that's a great caveat. we don't know what the jury is thinking. obviously, we are paying close attention. we're waiting to see if the buzzer goes off in that courtroom again, that means that they have another note potentially a verdict. we've already had to go off twice now with three

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♪ ♪ [sfx] water splashing. ♪ ♪ [sfx] ambient / laughing. ♪ ♪ for budget reminder, get smart. yes, judge. by got it. got it. boss honore, you've got this. >> i'm elizabeth wagmeister in los angeles in this is cnn welcome back as the jury in manhattan is deliberating one former trump aide says the former president is preparing himself mentally for a guilty verdict, joining us now is former trump white house communications since director anthony scaramucci, the author of a new book from wall street to the white house and back, anthony, you told me a couple days ago that you think donald trump is super nervous about what's to come what do you imagine trump's mindset is now

as he's being forced to stay in this courthouse and his fate is being deliberated by these 12 manhattan is well, again, i'm in the same camp that i was a few days ago, j. >> keys, nervous sees also contemplating the ramifications. this is going to have on his family, and i think he's you know, he's got this belief in himself from course about his own base. and so forth still believing that he could likely win the election. but he's got great political instincts and so he knows if he comes out of this case as a convicted felon that could spell doom for him in november because lots of independence or not going to want to put a convicted felon at the top of the us government. so that's sort of the things that are swirling around in his mind right now obviously, he's taking the truth social, and try to ventilate some of that stuff but listen when he's convicted, if he is convicted he's gonna be one very angry

person. we'll see that on full display over the next couple of days. >> you've talked about some of the nervous tics as you call them the former president does when he's speaking to cameras, like moving his hands in and out as he did yesterday. >> can you tell us more? or about what those are and what you think they signal well the double fist pump is sort of this solidarity pump, letting people know that he's he's chipper. >> part of that dance moves sequence that he does, which it looks ridiculous. but for whatever reason, the people that are in his follower, a group like it. but the accordion move is usually a sign of nervousness. and so when you find mr. trump's saying somebody that he really doesn't believe where he has to dial into a frame of mind to push himself to say something he does the accordion move. and so you could see that unfold display yesterday with the accordion move the circle move

is when he's speaking more with certainty. so it's fairly predictable with present president trump, you just have to watch his behavior can't hide the shame of what's going on, though you can see it on his face. he can't really hide the he knows what he did. and he knows what he's in trouble for. he probably thinks the case is ridiculous and we can debate whether or not the case should it be brought and again, brought against them or not? but it's here now and he knows what he did. and so now he's just waiting to figure out how bad it's going to be. the evidence is out there jake and so there are 12 jurors will have to make that decision, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming. he knows that, which is why he's invoking the whole mother, teresa line yesterday. >> if the jury does come back with a guilty verdict on some or all of the 34 counts. how do you think the trump team's messaging around his innocence

will change if at all, or will it continue along the lines of the mother teresa? nobody including mother teresa could serve dr yes. rigged system is the charge he makes. are we going to hear more of that? >> what do you think yes, it will demean the judge. >> she'll demean the jury they'll file immediately for an appeal you'll have to see what happens to him in the interregnum period between the appeal or not, because if there is a jail sentence here, what do they do with them? is it solid theory? ankle brace on home confinement, that sort of thing. so that'll all be speculative, but he'll be out there policy on the american system. one of the reasons why i'm working hard against him is that he is a threat to our system. he is a threat to the veracity and the sanctity of our system and so he's a guy that likely has done something wrong. we'll let the jury decided. but if the jury convicts him, he'll try to

putin the system. so even though he himself has done something wrong, and the evidence is overwhelming, he wants his group of supporters to think that the system is unfair. >> and that's de-stabilizing to the system, and that's unfair to its fellow americans. >> so as i've said to you before, he the most un-american presidential candidate that we've seen. i mean, it's not just the calls for deportation or firing the civil service and the american government but it's really shaking the roots of the system and making a large group of people think that this system that we've all lived with successfully, we're doing are 50 years is a rig that unfair system and that is a bunch of nonsense that needs to be put down and so you need people out there were budding what he's saying, but there was a group of people that feel the system is unfair and i'm not saying that there aren't elements of the system that needs to be fixed but it's not what mr. trump says and we need to rebut that mr. trump has

needed to stay pretty quiet in the courtroom because of the gag order on him and also just a courtroom decorum. >> he's clearly used these media gaggles outside cord as well as social media and appearances right rallies, and appearances and friendly venues to vent about his frustrations. do you think he's gone too far and pushing the limits of the gag order well, that's what he does. he's he's a frog boiler. >> he he he simmering the frog, hoping to kill the frog with low temperatures in the beginning and then he, he puts the heat up and so he's he's pushing that, judge. he knows he's already over the limits. would that judge? and he knows he's going to put the judge and an unfortunate situation if he goes after him because he'll he'll cry lawfare. he'll cry political persecution as opposed to just this and so that's, that's what he does. and there's a group of people that are listening to them. when he does that. so the judges in a really tough position, he does not want to

do something that is catholic cataclysmic to the overall process because this is a former american president. >> and so the weird thing about all this is donald trump is talking about unfairness. >> but he's actually been treated more fairly then most people that are in his situation in terms of what the accusations are. >> all right. anthony scaramucci. thank you so much for your time today and thank you for joining us for special coverage of the jury deliberations and trump's criminal hush money trial the jury is now back in their room and they are deciding her coverage continues with my friend and colleague dana bash after this short break, we'll be right back why choose a sleep numbers smart that can keep me warm when i'm cold. wait, no, i'm always hot streak number. >> does that can i make my side softer?

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