the plea deals all have this proviso in it which says if the obstruction charges ever vacated, we can charge you again and i've all those people they were charged with other crimes. some of them might even be more severe because they pled down to obstruction. so there's so many ways in which the only core group of people who truly affected and a huge way is about 6% of the total number of cases. >> real quick, you mentioned monday, big day. we're going to hear for the final supreme court on this immunity idea the fact that it's on the final day what can we read? should we read into that? >> so the supreme court often leaves some of the most controversial cases for the final de and then they leave town. and it also doesn't then have an effect on their other parts of their caseload in terms of how they or their opinions are received. i do think that there's almost no trans that donald trump will be vindicated with a maximalist view of presidential immunity. and i think when we see the case on monday big question will be, what is it also me for future presidents? is there this blanket immunity or not? i do not think the court is going

to give that it's so interesting, it's always great to have you here. thank you so much. thank you. thank you. thank you. and thank you all so much for joining us today. i'm kate bolduan. have a great weekend ac30 60 starts now tonight on 360, the day after the debate, disaster, very different. joe biden shows up on the campaign trail, is democrats agonize over his debate performance? and then your times editorial board says biden should drop out also tonight would voters in the host state and swing-state georgia took from the debate the weather change how they plan to vote. plus, even with no supreme court decision yet on trump's claim of immunity for january 6. one supreme court ruling today will affect some january we're six defendants. good evening. thanks for joining us. we begin tonight with this time magazine's new cover, which certainly speaks to the panic many democrats felt waking up this morning more than 51 million people watched last night cnn debate in atlanta, 51 million. and within moments of what they watched a halting performance by a fragile

looking joe biden, seemingly unable to counter a torrent of lies by the former president. the calls began from within the democratic party to consider the possibility of him bowing out of the race. today, there were also calls for the exact opposite chill the f out is how pennsylvania democratic senator john fetterman put it today and now at the end of a traumatic night and day since the debate, both the chill out and freak out democrats have something to point to, because today in north carolina even as he acknowledged his debate shortcomings last night, it was a markedly different president biden on the stump i don't walk diseases. >> i used to, i don't speak a smoothie that i used to i don't do bad debate as well as i used to well, i know what i do know i know how to tell the truth. i know like millions of americans know when you get

knocked down, you get back out end. >> he got backing for that from his old boss, former person obama, who posted bad debate nights happen. trust me, i know. then renewed his endorsement of president biden. other democrats followed suit that said the day they ended with this pretty stunning message from the new york times editorial board quoting now, mr. biden has been an admirable president under his leadership, the nation has prospered and begun to address a range of long-term challenges. and the wounds ripped open by mr. trump had begun to heal. but the greatest public service mr. biden can now perform is to announce that he will not continue to run for reelection the president is now at a private event here in new york. cnn's arlette science has new reporting from inside the campaign joins us now, what are you hearing from the campaign well, i understand the biden campaign is reacting to that news from the new york times editorial board, i really downplayed what the new york times i had to say are the biden campaign co-chair cedric richmond tonight saying quotes, the last time joe biden lost the new york times editorial

boards endorsement, it turned out pretty well for him. >> that is a reference to the endorsement process back during the 2020 democratic primary, when the new york times endorsed amy klobuchar and elizabeth warren over joe biden for a long time. the biden campaign advisers from that period in time held real disdain for the new york times over that endorsement pointing to the fact that they had a supporter as security guard who works the new york times building who had this viral video where she told the president that she loves him so much. that was something that advisers back then were quick to point to as they've pushed back on the new york times, but it all comes under much different circumstances this time around as there has been private anxiety within democratic circles about president biden's debate performance last night was some questioning whether it's possible for him to potentially step aside in this 2024 race. now, the biden campaign hey, spent part of the day a working the phones today to try to ease some of the current concerns of

democratic lawmakers, but also democratic donors that will be a key group to watch to see how the money continues to flow into this campaign. one thing that the biden campaign tonight, i'm told is touting as the fact that the president is about to appear out of lgbtq you plus fundraiser here in new york city, where a source familiar with the matter tells me that he is expected to raise more than $3 that is the largest figure for that single events that is takes place on an annual basis. this comes on the heels of the campaign just yesterday, saying that they raise $40 around debate day, which they said was the biggest grassroots fundraising haul of this campaign. but a lot of eyes will be not just on how the donation since continue to pour into the biden campaign, if they continue to pour in, but also if there's any other further public democratic anxiety that arises after the precedence debate performance. let science thanks very much. want to get some spectrum now for mercy and political commentators and contributors,

bacardi sellers, david urban, alyssa farah griffin biden, biographer evan osnos, former republican congressman adam kinzinger, who endorsed president biden just two days ago. evan, first of all, what is your reaction to this call from the new york times that had turiel board for the president to drop out i mean, it's significant it is not the kind of thing that the times does lightly. it's pretty rare to think of last time that the new york times has called for a democratic president to step aside from his reelection attempt. but i also think if you're trying to understand what's going on inside joe biden's world right now inside his mind, i think you've got a pretty clear sense of that today when he got up and he said, in this crowd in north carolina and he said, when you get knocked down, you get back up for him. that is an idea that is way more than just a sort of bromide that you might throw around. this is kind of his central political entre, and it's been a part of his life for very long time. the question now is, does he believe it so strongly that he is perhaps not as open to seeing what the other evidence

is that's going to come out over the course of the next weeks and days, about a days and weeks about what sort of support he has that balancing those two, i think i understand is going to be at the at the for of how he how he navigates this car. >> you've been talking to democrats all day. >> what are you hearing? >> well, i think we all disagree with the new york times. we disagree somewhat with evan as well. we are where we are. i mean, we have two choices. we either have either you choose donald trump, who is somewhat of a sociopath who led us down a path of financial ruin and destruction. after hearing a great economy, who said that he could touch women the way he wanted to touch him. who put three supreme court justices on the united states supreme court who overturned roe i mean, you can continue to go down that path if you want to, or you can choose joe biden there aren't many choices left and the talk last night from it, democrats only it's irresponsible. it's impractical. it's politically impossible. i mean, joe biden is already on ballots around the country. you're not going to go and replace joe biden,

people who are talking about josh shapiro or west more or gretchen or gavin, i loved them. all. they are fast it's an aging sarah gets the problem. they really have though, is that, you know, the $220 million at the biden campaign has that only transfers to kamala harris the people who are actually having this discussion who don't even want to look at kamala harris, they are not only feeding the frenzy, but they're being factually inaccurate and i would also say again, i said this would david earlier today we literally have three choices as democrats. either you vote for donald trump, you vote for joe biden, or you stay on the couch. and last night we got throttled. it wasn't a good debate. we got beat and the pre-game, we got beat in a debate we got beat in a post-game. the people around donald trump excuse me, around joe biden need to be held accountable. i'm talking about jen o'malley, dillon. i'm talking about anita dunn. i'm talking about ron klain. they all need to be held accountable or to account. but the fact is

he's our horse and what do you want from democracy that is the, that is the question that has to be asked. >> i think you're practically right. you are right that it would be precedented, incredibly challenging, incredibly risky to make a change. but what false so flat for me as you and i agree that donald trump is a threat to democracy, he's a threat to our justice system, to the american way of life and i strongly believe in a few weeks we're going to see him in double digits ahead and battlegrounds, there is not a way to turn around with 50 million billion people saw last night. and i heard from people all over the world who stayed up until the wee hours of the morning in the hague munich, london texting me because they were scared because of the impacts on the war in ukraine. the stakes are too high to do the party politics and the geniality isn't, this isn't party politics, and i apologize for interrupting you, but this is, this is the fact that i don't trump when he said you can grab a woman by her did not get out the race. donald trump, when he actually castigated when he castigated john mccain did not get out the race when laying donald trump is not what joe

biden but what we're trying to replicate donald trump, what we are saying is that it's june, and i am saying that my candidate got his behind kicked but what i'm also saying is that joe biden, on his worst day is a better candidate than donald trump what the car is a warrior for his team. >> okay. and i admire that you've gotta do what he's got to duties, he's garden as lloyds and he's getting into a fight for but for, you know, for president obama to describe joe biden is having a bad night, is like saying my hair is thinning okay. it just not factually, it's not factually based in anything. the cari makari gets it exactly. the car gets it they got their handed to them 51 million people this election was decided by in these states, right? 27,000 in michigan, 40,000 in pennsylvania. we're talking about razor-thin margin people doing. can i just ask a question to flip those amazing people like you and alyssa and evan and everyone else who's joining us remotely as well. if

you are a woman who values reproductive rights, after watching that debate last night, are you more likely to vote for donald trump and joe biden know, but this is not a bug. it's a yes or no. no. it's the false binary you're setting up. he's at this lgbtq event right now. i'm working with centre right. groups that are afraid of obergefell's falling. if you have donald trump back in the white house, supreme court appointments, two of them running joe biden ensuring donald trump went, how does that ensure? >> because every bad performance, not worthy of the presidency, i don't think he's, i'm worried he's not capable of seven months well, let me bring congressman kinzinger. you just endorsed present biden the day before the debate or that going for you. i'm just drawing any regrets about that or how do you see this? you were publican david. david, listen, man, you know what i'm proud of. i'm proud that i'm not standing here sitting on a stage supporting a man who was a habitual liar who couldn't tell the truth, who pretended like the january 6 committee deleted all evidence and it's on the fricking internet. he has a defense team that can

also so come up with whatever evidence they want so it was a terrible night. the biden campaign and democrats gain nothing by pretending like it was anything but a terrible night. and democrats have to decide what is the best way to defend democracy. but the thing i am so proud of not having to do do is to defend a man who could not tell the truth last night. but do you wish you didn't endorse somebody else i don't wish i didn't endorse him. i'm proud of standing against the habitual liar who lies about everything from january 6 to his golf game that he wins club championships that he's now ever lost. that makes me proud democrats have a lot of thinking to do in terms of how to write this ship. but you have to prosecute the case against donald trump. and i'll tell you, what am i disappointments is it should have been joe biden that was crushing donald trump's lies last night and he wasn't able to do that. yeah. i mean, evan, if it comes to it, is there i

mean, because he is painting a what i think sounds like a very realistic sense of the democratic party right now is there someone in president biden's inner circle who he would listen to if they said it's time to step aside and we've talked about this last night. i think david axelrod said maybe the first lady would be the only person and it certainly doesn't seem like that. that's going to happen first lady is in the end. >> the final voice in the room on a question like that, there are others with influence. his sister, valerie is very important to him. he's she was the first campaign manager of his very first campaign back in 72. she's been an unofficial advisor ever since. there are others who also have a have his ear. people like ted kaufman, who of course has been with them for decades in some ways, his communication with them as almost non-verbal. he can read from them. if it's a moment to go ahead. or a moment to pull back. but i think for the moment, there is no sign. i think you saw this very clearly in his performance in north carolina, which was a very very

strong performance. there is no sense that they believe that they're moment has arrived to get out, if anything, they are doubling down. and i think that's that's the moment we're in on this day. but occurred. let me ask you if the thing i don't understand about last night is given all the biden team was putting out about the preparations the mock debates, things like everybody's watched the nixon kennedy debate, and everybody knows about like the cutaway shot and a reaction shot. and you know, you're gonna be on camera watching a candidate and even the cutaway shots that they nobody would seem to have prepared the or thought about even the way the prison looked at when he wasn't speaking. i mean, that's a basic thing that's not thinking like the reason that i'm calling out by name the people who are closest to him is that they'd be asked us. all right. even the people who come on tv, that this is

for viewers who are watching this. this is not something debates don't happen in isolation. like they don't happen in vacuums. we talked to people before these debate happened. we tried to lay out what we feel will happen. we get a sense of what will happen in the communication chen from the campaign in regards to what he was going through or what it may look like, or where the bar should be was nonexistent. they failed. i will also say that i interviewed vice president harris afterward. >> she gave the best defense of president biden that i have heard and the most spirit we did write like presentation. why isn't she why aren't they i mean, i don't today her schedule was insane. today. it was elleithee because she lashed nice. she was a revelation at correct. back to back to los angeles. and so i always tell people the two most talented people in our party whether if you really want to be objective or pete buttigieg in kamala harris. and we also have gretchen whitmer in wes

moore and ralph raphael warnock, and they're kind of in josh shapiro, they on the next tier last night we failed. if anybody can look in the mirror in simply say that we won this debate. we did not or won the day we did not. and we did, we did not uphold from the donor class. so the grassroots through the grass tops. we didn't not give them anything to be proud of last night. however, significant than losing a debate if i'm being honest, i stayed up last night and re-watch mondale reagan when reagan got smoked. >> and this was a different universe in this, i don't know a modern historic example of i president imploding to that degree being unable to litigate their that's not that's not my point. and then that's what i want people to understand. that is literally not my point. my point is right now, you have two choices or three choices. so either you vote less democrats make, you point out, president, make little change in kamala harris, she could come with harris literally you can not make a change. that is that's why when we have special packages, are we going to think about how changes can happen? that is a political

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peak monday in at reagan national airport. >> this is cnn of all the democratic voice is weighing in, say on last night's debate performance, few carry more weight with joe biden and south carolina congressman james clyburn. he was instrumental of course, in helping the presence secure the democratic nomination in 2020. he reiterated his support for him today, while also saying this well, that was striking one. there was a pulpal back now with the panel congressman consumer, are you surprised that prominent democrats for the most part, are sinking with the person? i mean, there was a lot of freak out last night. people woke up and i mean, is this just the reality of the situation prevailing? >> yeah. i mean, i think it is it's it's, you know, look, again, there's real benefit to the democrats to admit that last night was awful because pretending like it wasn't people see right through that. so any spin shouldn't be in actually it was really good. now, point out that donald trump is a aligned liar, but i

guess this is what i'd expect because ultimately, yes, if you change candidates, it is possible by the way. so saying it's not realistic or not possible, it's just not true. but you can imagine the division the democrats would go under in that process of replacing. i think look again today, this, this rally joe biden did. they could assuage some fears. the problem is 50, some million people weren't watching that rally. so i think keeping joe biden out there, keeping them energetic is the best way to right the ship if they decide to stick with him in the long run, which looks like they will. >> and i just say to kind of push back on the rally the great performance at the rally. he's given a gripp two on the plane down, right to raleigh. he reads it. they put it a teleprompter he reads it in front of a crowd. i mean, look, it's great performative art, right? it's great. it looks great on. they can show him the club's everywhere, but it's not the same as what we saw last slide. it's not a debate. it's the exact same thing. no, no, no the fact that is not an arm that's that none. let me

be extremely clear. so you're an intentional with my language. the reason is the exact same thing is because we judge last night based upon performance, we didn't judge it based upon substance and what the president did today. the current president did today was prompter, but he went out and performed people formed well, you know what he did. he showed energy he showed the fact that he could read a teleprompter and head of state meetings, you don't get them at the 3m phone call like the concern that i have been in a head of state meeting, you have notes, you have staff, and ahead of state meeting i've been on calls with the nsc that it is unscripted. they're high level, they are very, you know, a lot of different ways you've bought it. you met somebody who feels sure to get let me ask a question. let me ask let me ask a simple question. it comes back to this on the nsc meeting where you're talking about russia and ukraine. do you want donald trump illicit? none. let me ask a question. do you want donald trump and joe biden? >> well, no, and that's why i supported that's what american voters reality where there could be a change and there is a reason he's in that some of the most prominent liberal leaning outlets are calling for a change because the stakes are

high and it is worth considering there's also the flip side. >> it's not people decided to vote for trump over biden, who liked biden, but just sitting out, people just saw i mean, i told you under 30 is going to vote for that. i said that today in a liberal manhattan audience and got up. let me say something. i spoke out to the couch. i've got a big with the council is one of the most most amazing candidates in the history of american policy. that's well, and i've actually spoken with people today. i was on an airplane coming up here today and there was a young lady beside me and she said, look, i watched the debate last night. it didn't do it for me. i'm gonna sit this one out. the follow-up to it was i wish we could just run on cruise control for the next four years and come back and vote in 2028. so that is a real thing. that the biden campaign has to deal with. yeah. i mean, is this the briton a biography of president body interviewed him for many years, is it's the most difficult political position. he's ever been in. i mean, it must be i think it is luck. he's had moments in 1987, for

instance, he had a plagiarism scandal. of course, people remember that drove him out of a presidential race. but today the stakes are really incomparable. he is running against a man who of course he has accurately described as a threat to democracy has been one of our primary exponent's for explaining why it is that donald trump is such a threat. and now it is right on his shoulders. this question of what is the way to defend this system. i think if you go inside his mind for the moment, he is at a moment, it's a crucible moment. it's a time when he is deciding ultimately, what is it that my legacy will be in this country? and this is going to play out. i think over the course of the next few weeks. and he may well be the nominee. but if he is, that means he has to make a case that his vision for the country is so much more powerful than the reasons people are hesitating about his performance in remember, we went into this with biden behind. he had to prove that he was ready to use up for things. he had a change people's minds. john king said last time before we started joe biden needs the bench still the

night, right it didn't bend still, he didn't bend aluminum last night. he didn't change anybody's mind about whether he is but then when you watched it again, as i did part of today, so sorry. well, one of the things that's so disappointing about it is that the former president was lying constantly and also not answering has no answer for what he's going to do about helping the most amazing jake given the opportunity to rebut yes. >> biden but american, the american public is not stupid when you ask a question about it. >> but if job at about luxr, when you ask me a question about climate change and your responses that i'm just saying as a debate opportunity, it was a primary protection, but you saw last night what tell me what you wanna do about climate change, the way they are 100 migrants that are rating the capital right now. i mean, that was the response. that was a tone and tenor joe biden has to do a better job and he has to get out there and that will happen, everyone. thank you. coming up. we're going to hear for the people whose opinions on joe biden's age and president trump his character ultimately matters, namely voters or gary tuckman introduce you, do a cross-section in georgia who

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immediately after the debate was over. i'm only 25 and i see they're both old either avoiding questions or they're both like don't know what the hell that answering. and we talked with georgia voters on the recreational belt line that surrounds atlanta after everyone had the night to think about the debate. i don't necessarily feel competent in either candidates ability to run a country. >> we had conversations with dozens of georgians, many of them very uninspired. >> hey, that is attorneys to you guys because i don't like one candidate more than the other. >> i would like a younger candidate on both parties. the headline hi, i'm old man versus con man, really resonated with me before the debate, were you leaning towards biden trump are undecided by leaning towards biden after, this debate how do you feel without a home for many who voted for joe biden in 2020 and support him currently are frankly depressed. >> my genuine hope is that perhaps somebody else will step up for that nomination.

>> on the democratic side? yes, sir. >> these two women say they are strong biden supporters, but watching the debate was difficult. >> i was concerned very, very concerned. about biden's real ability to carry this nation forward just from physical perspectives, you feel the same way yes. i care about where on country is going to be rather than who deliver the most stellar debate onstage i, care about who tells the truth it's going to keep me safe. who's actually going to do things for the country? i don't feel like that's shrub speaking if former president donald trump, many georgians leaning towards voting for him, tell us the president biden's debate performance was not at all surprising to them i thought he sounded unsure rather confused and not well-prepared sorry to say. i think that they biden looked sad trump. trump was

trump here in the belt line and back at the wicked wolf sports pub holders, we talk to who had already decided to vote for president biden still plan to and voters support donald trump, aren't planning to abandon him at the ballot box either. >> but we did find a few undecided who may be on the verge of a decision. >> i thought that trump in this debate overall thank he's more reasonable and more cogent and more thoughtful than they did what he was four years ago. i'm undecided, but i think you've i was very undecided, neither vigor now. more towards biden. >> can we also found some people will feel like this woman? >> i think that we could all benefit as the country from someone other than e, two options that we have today one is convicted felon and the other was unable to coherently

explain his stance yesterday. >> so who do you vote for i'm not sure if i will vote because of it now, anderson, we did talk to three people who say they will definitely vote for robert f. kennedy jr. one of those men so as you voted for trump four years ago, one of them says joe biden four years ago. one of them didn't want to save, but were they all have in common is all of them say they were not inspired by what they heard at the debate. >> anderson karyotyping, thanks so much new york democratic congressman dan goldman joined just now, congressman, appreciate you being with us. so i mean, some people within your party are wondering if president biden should step aside the car sellers who was on earlier tonight just saying that's not going to happen, just it just impossible the new york times editorial board, as you know, is called for him to do so what do you think look, i think everyone needs to calm down a little bit. >> it was a bad night. there was a poor performance but one

night does not make a campaign and it does not erase three-and-a-half years of stellar leadership that has brought our country back to the forefront on a global stage, has protected democracy around the world. and he here at home and has benefited the vast majority of americans, lower-class, middle-class americans, through some historic, historic legislation and when you compare what you saw from joe biden last night to what you saw from donald trump, you realize that this is a choice ultimately, in november of someone who is a decent, honest man of integrity, who has served his country his entire life against a felon, who is an inveterate liar and only cares about himself. and so, yes, the new york times is correct. the stakes are very high, but let's not go with this double standard where we just normalize donald trump's

absurd behavior and absolutely flute outrageous lies of denying january 6 is refusal to accept the results of the election, his pride at overturning roe v. wade and taking reproductive freedom away that is what the choice is. that's what we're dealing with here. and ultimately, it's convenient for the new york times to say, oh joe biden in should step down. why are they saying that donald trump should step down there just always apologizing and normalizing for donald trump. and frankly, anderson that's what happened last night on the debate stage. nobody fact-check donald trump when he was blatantly lying over and over and over again. >> what does it concern you that i mean, the the president united states did not do that or was not able to do that in real time i mean, in a debate against his opponent no, it doesn't concern me. i mean, look at the state of the union, right. is the exact opposite. look at how he was today on the

campaign trail in north carolina. he had an off tonight. he had an off tonight. people haven't off tonight and he's he's older than then most for sure you're going to have some off nights, but let's remember the job of the president is it in is not to respond instantaneously in a debate. you are governing the country you are making critical, important decisions, getting information from the staff that you hire, the administration that you build and you're using all of that information to make decisions and to pass legislation and to defend our democracy. and that is what joe biden has done so well surrounding himself without standing staff members, 40 of 44 of donald trump's senior staff members will not endorse him. they worked for him and they refused to endorse him. and what he will hire will the political hacks extremists, who will bring our country down. and that's the critical difference here.

>> do you think there should be another i mean, there is another debate that they have both agreed to do. do you would you want that to take place? >> absolutely. absolutely. i think joe biden had an off tonight it was a poor performance. there's no question about it and no one is saying anything different. but let's have another debate. let's see what happens on a different night let's see whether donald trump continues to lie over and over to deny his role in january 6 too. proudly say that he increased the deficit more than any other president by reducing taxes on the super wealthy he is blatantly mischaracterizing the disaster that was his presidency and that got a lot of attention and didn't get a lot of pushback. but let's have another debate where actually the moderators will push back on donald trump's lies. he intimidated your network unfortunately, and there was no push it's back. he was given

free reign to just lie as much as he wants and that's not helpful to the american public either. >> yeah, i don't know about the intimidation part, but i wasn't part of the discussions on any of this, but obviously in a debate, it is the primary job of the opponent to have a direct counter and rebuttal to what somebody else is saying. and clearly the president was not able to do that. we will see obviously in another debate, if that would change congressmen goldmann, i appreciate your time. thank you. just ahead. on precedent in 24 hours, presidential historian doris kearns goodwin joins us to put this in perspective not cockroach, resilient creatures, true? >> miracles of evolution, where there is one, others aren't far behind scavenging for food. the cockroach will, now that's horrifying hey ortho, home defense max enduring sec barrier. one application kills

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is called from mr. biden to drop out because of how he did last night? >> we wanted to get some perspective and all of this now for presidential historian, pulitzer prize winning author doris kearns goodwin, her latest book, the remarkable read, an unfinished love story, a personal history of the 1960s dorsal, great to have you on have other politicians been able to come back from moments like last night, i mean, famously, the nixon kennedy debates were people watched it. nixon looked terrible seems people rated kennedy as having one bye, by comparison. i mean, has there ever been anything like this? >> well, i think we've seen the curse of presidential incumbents and that maybe one way to look at this. i mean, clearly when you look at what happened to reagan in mondale in that first debate, reagan himself confessed that he had flopped and the rnc chairman said that it was a dismal performance that he had blown it. and yet somehow they were able to to realize that he was filled with too many facts to

many things as sort of an echo of biden in a way and then the second debate he came out roaring not only with that grade comment, i won't make age an issue and i won't exploit the inexperience and youth of my, of my opponent, but it was rather reagan became reagan. he just relaxed and did what he did well, at same time we saw that when president obama debated that first time with mondale, he looked like he wasn't interested in it. he seemed like he was rusty. he didn't seem to really throw himself into it and it got a very bad performance and he realized that he acknowledged it and was able to come back i think this looms a little larger, however i mean, because age was the main thing that everybody was worried about. and that was what seemed to show. he acknowledged today and i think it's a good thing that he acknowledged that he wasn't the same debater that he had been. he may not have walked as well as he did before and that, but he was still he would claim somebody who could tell the truth to us, et cetera, et cetera. but then the campaign put out a comment that said we're not changing our strategy. i think they have to

change their strategy is going to have to get out there more. he's going to have to have press conferences. he's going to have to have interviews that are unscripted. if it's true that what he does inside the white house, which people so who know him say he seems very competent and up to the job is going to have to prove that now over again, starting from a difficult position to the country at large because the voters are going to make this decision. we'll see what happens in the polls and in the weeks to come. but it's still going to be an uphill challenge, i think for him from here on i mean, can you think of a time when i mean, not only the calls within the democratic party for him to step down into essays, but, but the new york times editorial board calling for him to step aside you know, what so interested me about the new york times, that a dorsal board today, is that there was a new york times editorial board decision in 1912. that's the first primary we ever had. it was between taft and teddy roosevelt. and the new york times wrote that it was so terrible, it was so fierce. teddy roosevelt was calling taft a pin head and tapped was saying he'll be the a

dictator, that it was embarrassing and it should bring a blush of shame on every cheek. and they said, if this is the first primary system, we hope it's the last one. this is not a rational procedure. it's a mob that was one of their first interventions. and now here they're saying that we should, the voters have already said that biden should be at by the primary system, but they're saying he has the withdrawal somehow and that will allow other people to be able to be part of the decision who weren't voted necessarily in the primaries. so they've had an interesting impact from the beginning to the end you've worked in the white house, you worked with closely with lbj what is it like in that in that bubble? >> i mean, to be in that kind of circle of the president because it's very easy for people on the outside to say, well, somebody should, the parties should go to him, people coming up to me on the street today saying like, should the party go to him and asked him to step down, what you mean the party like, how does how does it what's it like inside the white house i think

it's a decision that really has to be made by the president and the people around him. >> but i think back to what lyndon johnson was feeling in march of 68, he had already entered the new hampshire primary and he came out almost behind what was senator mccarthy was able to do. there were pressures on him knowing that robert kennedy was coming into the race, that maybe he would have a really tough time. it would dis, unite the country, the war in vietnam would not be settled. and he talked about it with his wife, ladybird, with his closest friends, but not very many people outside. and he made the decision to shock the country by deciding on march 31st that he would withdraw from the race. amazingly, and this would be true, i suspect for biden as well, acclimation followed. i mean, every editorial said he had done something for the country rather than himself, that it was the most unselfish decision and would assure his legacy. and for a period of time, it looked like that done. so his approval rating had been 57% disapproval it went up to 57% approval after what he had done. but it would all depend if biden more to do this and

withdrawal from the race, whether or not that meant that whoever the candidate was could defeat trump because his belief is that he's the one who can defeat trump. and that was the roll of the dicey played in making this debate. it early, hoping that it would ensure people about age knowing that he feels he's the only one who could beat trump if that's not true. and somebody else could be them, then biden's legacy would still be assured. so it's very complicated right now, historically, in this very day and age one of the things that people who don't want biden to drop out or don't think he should point out and we've had guests on the program tonight saying this is that a president makes decisions with a lot of other people around them and a lot of input and that it is the people that they put in place as much as it is at times, the president do, is that do you think that's true i think that's absolutely true. i mean, in a way we think about it, how many times does the president, when he's president have to debate? it's not

necessarily the most important measure of the kind of president he's likely to be i mean, i've argued for 50 years. i've been studying these presidents for so long, maybe even longer than that. it seems sometimes that the most important thing we should be looking at is temperament. it's character at somehow gets lost in the way we evaluate debates and who makes a gaffe and who's raised the most money and who looks better and who looks week what, whether this person has humility, whether this person has empathy, whether they can acknowledge areas, what kind of a team just to go to your question, what kind of a team are they likely to create? are there people that can argue with them? do they have strong minded people? do they have an accountability for their word? do they have an ambition that goes for something larger than themselves? these are the qualities that have made up our great leaders and somehow we have to be able to sort those through as we look at the two people that are gonna be running for president, that's even more important than whether they do something in a debate. except it shows in a debate standing up to pressure, it shows whether you're prepared correctly. and i think that's going to have to be proved over and over again right now.

>> but it is such an important point that you're making that it's in the end, the character of the person and the are they a good person? are they somebody who is a decent human being and what their motivations are that in the end is important and you know, it's really interesting in 18, 92 character was on the ballot when cleveland ran for office. and it was discovered that he had a child had been wet it out of wedlock. and so it was considered that he was privately corrupt and that sense, but his opponent, james blaine, had written a letter to somebody promised let's see him a business deal and said burn this latter burn. and then it was james g. blaine, the continental liar from the state of maine. the country chose the person who may have been worried about private morality rather than the public person who was going to be corrupt. and so private character and public character, or maybe two different things sometimes, but they meld together doris kearns

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would no overdraft fees. join me? it can.com this source, but kaitlan collins next today the supreme court's conservative majority up into decades of precedent underpinning clean air and water and other federal regulations by overturning what had been known as the chevron defense. that essentially said when a law is ambiguous, court should give leeway to federal agencies charged with carrying out that law. today's opinion could make it easier for opponents of federal regulations to challenge them in court separately. a slightly different 6-3 majority narrowly narrowed the usage of an obstruction law by federal prosecutors to potentially add years to the sentences of january 6. rioters also on monday, the last day of supreme court decisions were expecting one on the former president's immunity claim ems want to get some legal perspective now from

former federal prosecutor, jessica raw. so what does this obstruction ruling mean for a special counsel, jack smith's case against the person, it's not yeah, it's not the ruling. i think that the government was looking for that jack smith necessarily would have wanted, but i don't think it's actually that bad for jack smith thinking about his case against the former president it has two charges, two out of the four charges in that indictment, based on this obstruction of justice statute that the supreme court gave a narrow are reading to them the department of justice wanted the reason why it won't have that much of an impact on the case brought by the special counsel against trump is because the reading that the supreme court gave today is that the statute can only be used against people who who act in a way that has an effect on evidence used in an official proceeding. it doesn't apply to, for example, just storming the capital in a way that interferes with the counting or the process itself as opposed to something impairing, evidenced, used or some kind of object using that proceeding. and the way that the special counsel has framed the charges against trump we're actually is an object or evidence used

in the official proceeding at issue, which is namely the slates of electors and the supreme court in language, even in the majority opinion, takes pains to say that one could violate this statute by creating false evidence, not only by destroying other evidence. and so that's i think the way in which the charges against trump are safe. >> some were surprised that justice amy coney barrett took part in the dissent. yeah, i thought that was surprising and i thought she wrote a really good persuasive dissenting opinion that frankly, i think is the better reading of the statute. >> she said the statutory text is clear. the best reading of the statutory text is that it applies to conduct that interferes with an obstruct an official proceeding, even what does not connected to evidence or other objects. i do think i agree with her that that is the best reading of the statute. i don't think the majority reading is unreasonable, but i thought that it was quite interesting that barrett joined the dissent here monday. now we know for sure the supreme court is going to release their ruling on the moon the whether or not the president is immune

from prosecution, right? >> we know that because today the supreme court announced that monday would be the last day of opinions to be delivered by the court for the term that immunity decision is one of the last ones that's pending so depending on how the court rules on whether or not the president is entitled to immunity from criminal prosecution. we could see the case go forward. but immediately if the court were to rule that trump is not immune from the charges in this case. we can see that the court the case stop entirely if the court rules that he is entitled to immunity from prosecution or we could see something in-between if the court essentially says there such a thing as immunity from criminal prosecution for former president's. here's the standard. and then sends it back to the lower courts to apply that standard to the conduct that here, if that happens, there has to be additional fact-finding by the lower court, and then that decision could go up on appeal to the dc circuit. and again, a potentially to the u.s supreme. >> the latter is the most likely scenario. >> i don't know. i think that there's a good chance that that's what the outcome is. but we really don't know alright, let's go, rob. thanks so much appreciated at the news continues to sort some kaitlan collins starts now