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books that shaped america weeknights on c-span or go to c-span.org/books that shaped america to view the series and learn more about each book featured. ♪ healthy democracy doesn't just look like this. it looks like this. where americans can see democracy at work citizens are truly informed. a republic thrives. get informed straight from the source on c-span. when filtered, unbiased, word for word from the nation's capitol to wherever you are because the opinion that matters the most is your own. this is what democracy looks like. c-span empowered by cable. good evening. i am the executive director for global initiators. it is my pleasure to welcome you to a conversation with expert

scholar and author of the sister doctor sung-yoon i lee. i want to highlight that outside of his academic work and research doctor lee has been an expert witness for u.s. y,commercial hearings on policy including the trials. this evening we have a unique opportunity to his insight about a country that keeps us challenging policies for the region and beyond. and if that were not enough, to try to demystify the secretive qing dynasty that meets it. joining doctor lee is our very own emma whitmyer who will

interview doctor lee and conduct q and eight with the audience. emma was previously a fellow with the south korea foreign affairs. now, before we get the program underway, which is why you are here i just want to first thank doctor lee for taking the time to speak here. we are delighted for this opportunity to host you fruit for willbe a very insightful conversation. has bookk is available for purchase back there, purchase them and have them signed by doctor lee. i would also like to thank our members for your support. today's program in all of our programs are made possible because of you and thanks to you. if you are not a member or patron this is the best day to become one. so if you want to become a member let us know and i will help you with that. every member and patron are

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our museum. with that, emma, over to you. >> welcome i'm delighted to have you had this evening for this thought-provoking conversation with doctor lee. under his new book the sisters, north korea's kim yo jong the most dangerous woman. i am here at the policy institute. also we have many exciting programs that are taking place here at the society this fall. as well as a discussion between asian society policy and u.s. ambassador to japan on friday october 20. we hope you will come back to check out these programs. if you are interested in more about arts, culture, education and policy please consider signing up for our newsletter. now, onto our guest this evening is a fellow at the woodrow

wilson international center for scholars previously taught korean history at tufts university. he has written on politics of the korean peninsula for numerous publications including times," the wall street journal, and the "washingtonex post" testified as an expert witness on foreign affairs in north korea policy in the head by senior leaders include the president of the unitedwe states. please join me in welcoming doctor lee. >> thank you very much. thank you to the asian society for this opportunity to share with you mike gleanings on the north korean family with a focus on kim yo jong. thank you for taking time and you're very busy schedule to be here this evening. would you like me to address what i deem to be some saline issues some arguments that i try to make in the book?

>> yes sue. i would like to know why you chose to write this book what andwhat makes her to be so dangerous? >> i've been sort of obsessed with this family regime the last 20 years. as a young graduate student i knew little about north korea which is kind of comment among south korean citizens. there is a k pervasive apathy ad indifference even to things arnorth korean in south korea which is hard to explain but that is unfortunately the case. and as i began to read up on the grotesque human rights violations going on inside north korea just a few miles my family in south korea at lives, i came to learn about the political prisoner concentration camps, i grew a bit embarrassed i knew so little about these ongoing crimes againstta humanity.

that was the human rights issues for me too study about north korea and of course the regime plays the key role in perpetuating thison misery, hunger, and oppression. jimmy is especially interesting because she is the first preeminence a powerful leader the family and clan of the royal house to hold real power in public. and to serve as the deputy that supreme it deputy to her brother. she has issued over 40 formal written statement since the onsetun of covid since early ma. it is very clear she is running the show. her nation's policy toward the united states, south korea and much of the world she says so herself. she says that by the authority vested in her, by comrade

sherman, her brother, by the party and by the states i shall henceforth pursue the following steps. this was in june 2020. she warned this useless in building the north/south a joint power inside north korean territory built entirely and maintain entirely with south korean funds will soon be gone. she warned in issued that warning in a written statement on june 13, 2020 and 3 days later demolished it was. earlier in the month in the same month on june 4 at about 6:15 a.m. issued a written statement calling on south korea to pass a new law criminalizing the sending of anti- north korean regime leaflets and just about anything else that many

immigrants turned activist do sending into north korea not only leaflets denouncing the regime but basic amenities like a pair of socks, a bar of soap, 1 dollar bills, copies of the bible, toothpaste, toothbrush. things are in critical short supply in north korea. the regime does not like that of course she issued this order almost a decree calling on south korea to criminalize such passing a new criminal law. amazingly, four hours later the chief spokesman of the south korean ministry of communication calls for an unscheduled press conference and said we will work on it right away. just one hour later other government agencies chimed in the defense ministry, the foreign ministry, the blue house, the presidential office, arguing sending leaflets brings

all harm, no goodwill pass such a law and it was passed. so that vignette, even just that that president xi was able to extend the southward across the border. her nations abruzzo stifling the censorship speaks to her standing for power for influence. this is something that herfo grandfather could not achieve. nor -- or it could her father who died in 2011 or her brother. but by virtue of her identity, a young woman a relatively young female deputy leader, she is able to get away with a lot more than saying coming from her less photogenic surly looking brother because she is a young pretty woman. she can get away with a lot. we are more prone to forgiving

when she returns to oppose a provocation, peace phase would north korea of course reports and is smiling. e they embraced, they shake hans with various world leaders. the next time we see that she will be the face of her nation eating her nations diplomacy. and many of us, due to the pervasive tendency to patronize young women. i also respectfully suggest somewhere into, will probably underestimate her. will give her a full -- want to believe her who want to believe she's valuable. that we have some control it was a dangerous one she was at major new weapon and diplomatic

toolkit. it's very attentive in taking over responsibility and due to her brother you describe her as a mother like a figure. i wonder what significance and tells about north korean leadership. vean issue being taken seriousl? >> was seen her bring various agreements and she was caught on film on a 70 hour long train ride to vietnam in february 2019 for the second summit meeting with president trump was a chain smoker what looked to be a very

expensive fancy crystal ashtray many people saw that and said she is his secretary. there is that element soup. genuine affection, genuine trust. i watch literally hundreds of hours of north korean video documentaries. they show scenes you do not find in south korean and other documentaries shown in other nations. the two s seemed to genuinely le each other. they often smile at each other during occasions of official events. they steal glimpses of each other and kind of smiled like this it communicates this day is going swimmingly. i think he really trusts her because she is capable and of course she is her brother.

i don't see anyone within the royal family who for now and for the next foreseeable future let's say 15 years is a viable candidate for the top leadership if kim jong un would become incapacitated today or 10 years from thosele children are very anyoung at 10, 11, 12 or so. what can a 12-year-old son or daughter do? until they reach maturity, issue a written statement, give a public speech, receive aid for delegation, or to vietnam or china, i don't think so. so, although north korea is a brutally male-dominated chauvinistic society and culture, i would say keeping power within the family and having one of their own representing kim jong un and

assume the throne that supersedes any cultural, political biases. so for the next 10 or 15 years i think she is the only viable candidate to emerge as the supreme leader, her gender notwithstanding. >> you touched on kim jong un's tdaughter. i would like to know is we are starting to see her come out in the press and taking more photos together with her father, is this kim jong un's way of showing a more human or fatherly figure? or is this symbolic of the future he is trying to build for north korea? >> i think this is a great leader mind trick. it is psychological manipulation primarily the united states and projecting a softer family man image.

i think he's saying simultaneouslyo hello, our nukes are here to stay. my doctor, my children will inherit my nukes. you, whether it's president biden or any leader of a democracy to come and go via elections, you will not stay here two or three years or not you will be gone for as i am here to stay and turn power down to my next generation. there is that message too. but i think the more important message is self ubanization projecting the image of a loving father. day and a president in the white house come to say, well, it's really virtually impossible to roll their nuclear weapons program. and obviously he's a family man. he loves his >> and obviously he's a family

man. he los his daughter. maybe he's -- loves his daughter. maybe a he's not nuts after all. maybe we can learn to learn, if we can learn to live with north korean nuclear weapons. >> i think that kind of, that kind of adjustment to a new realitynt is what north korea wantspr to achieve by projecting this happy image of father and daughter. >> in the beginning of your book, you include the family tree which i think is a really great visual for understanding how the different branches interact with each other. and i noted the -- noticed the inclusion of kim jong un's children. however, there's no inclusion of children for finish. [inaudible] >> isch she married? does she have a husband? does she have children? we don't know. when he visited south korea for the opening ceremony in fact

winter olympicse in february 2018, the next day she visited the blue house, the president's office, and mingled with various south korean officials, of course, throughout her 2-night, 3-day stay. he reportedly told her south korean counterparts that she's, yes, married and has children. and may even have said e she's pregnant at that time, due to deliver her next child sometime in the next couple of months or so is, and internet sleuths around the world observed at the time that she looks a bit heavier with. not advise e by, starkly different, but maybe a bit of a bulge around her midsection. and when she showed up again at a high profile event, her brother's summit meeting with the south korean president in the korean village on april 27th, 2018 is, she looked visibly thinner.

so people believe that at some point between early february and late april she may have given birth to her second or third child, we don't know. but none of this can be confirmed. she turned 36 just a few days ago, so it's reasonable to assume that she does have children and is married. >> if she were to become the supreme leader one day, what would happen then for her next leader? would it be her children or would it go back to kim jong un's children? if. >>in well, i think it's sort of human nature, but once you emerge as the supreme leader, it's very hard or to reeling wish that kind of absolute power. north korea is an absolutist monarchy of the medieval age. it's, hay pretend to be a democracy where there's gender equality and all those good things, but it is a brutal a, absolute monoif around key.

monarchy. and once you seize that kind of absolute power, i think it's virtually impossible to voluntarily give that away. power struggle, you know, fractured side we've seen in the north korean family, killing the stepbrother, killing a nephew if in 1997 who defected to south korea on the orders of kim jong un. kim jong un's nephew was killed, we've seen the uncle killed in late 2013. so fratricide, infant side, i looked up these words in the dictionary, killing uncle' and all these things -- [laughter] it's a sample of -- schaefering of the north korean way of life. so what happens in the future, whether there be a power struggle between the aunt and the niece if or nephew? one cannot rule it out. at that point i guess the more interesting fictional, speculative storyline becomes whowi will strike first.

will the aunt, having held real power about to be relegated to the role of a regent, an advise orer, will he not remember, will she forget her own experience including with a brother to have the uncle killed that a -- [inaudible] knitting winter of 2013? i think those memories will linger. >> we've seen a rekindled relationship, i would say, between vladimir putin and kim jong un this year. finish kim jong un recently r traveled to russia for the far eastern summit. i don't believe we saw his sister on this trip. >> actually the, she was on the trip. >> she was? >> and she was seen wearing a very expensive dior bag. they're very rich. [laughter] it'sin an interesting, you know, thing to note, but they look like kings, but nation's poor. the people are starving, but the royal family is super, filthy

rich. >> and a quite large consumer of alcohol and luxury vehicles -- >> yes. >> i'd like to know on this recent trip that kim jong un took, how it differs from the one mentioned in your story. >> so kim met with putin in the russian far east at a space rocket launch facility in mid september is, september 12th. it was the first time that kim jong un traveled outside his country since the onset of covid and the last time he had traveled outside his country and held a summit meeting with a world leader was with putin in april 2019. that trip did not go very well for kim jong un. because kim jong un was told on the day of his meeting with putin that putin had places to go the next day, that he would be flyingg down to beijing, china, for a very important internationalt meeting, the

second belt and road niche e ty conference -- initiative conference. what's the problem there? well, kim had assume ised that thee next morning putin would join him in a wreath-laying ceremony at a veteran cemetery. but or moreover, it's a breach of diplomatic protocol. if you have a foreign head of state visiting you in your country, you try your best not to leave that person hanging and by, you know, thus showing -- giving the signal that i have people to meet, places to go, you're just a tourist, have a mice time. normally, you try to avoid that unpleasant situation. but it's not only putin did, that leave his country while kim jong un was still in russia, but revealed it at the very last minute. so how did kim take this? he and putin met for about four hours, from about 2 p.m. to 6 p.m., and and, you know, they

had a ban banquet. alcohol was consumed, of course. and once kim -- once putin bid farewell, it was still day out, light out, you knoww with, till not dark, kim went back to his facilities and proceeded to drink by himself two two whole bottles of vodka. how do we know this? well, controversial -- [laughter] but, you know, or we have some technology. hiand showed up to his fist meeting the next -- first meetingg the next morning 2 hous and 40 minutes late. and then canceled everything; or a visit to the zoo is, ballet in the evening and went home. so that was not a happy first summit meeting whereas now the situation in the world has changed with russia's invasion of ukraine. now putin, it seems, needs kim as much as kim needs putin. >> it sounds like putin took a page out of the kim family playbook to, you know, leave

them -- [inaudible] >> well, putin's notorious for showing up very late to important meetings, sometimes 2, 3 hours late. but putin was actually waiting, standing there in april 20919 waiting for kim, and his sister was not on that a trip. inand it may be linked to the vy unpleasant experience kim jong un add when donald trump just left kim there in hanoi, vietnam, in late february and took off, got on his jet, air force one, and flew back to the united states, thus making kim look like he had time on his hands. so that train ride back home from vietnam to north korea, was not very pleasant. in fact, kim had everyone except his sister punished physically during the train ride. but for whatever reason, his

sturdied not attend the kim-putin summit on april 25th, 2019. andd kim looked disheveled. he was red in the fail. s he was breathing really hard, audibly. -- red in the face. you could hear him in documentaries, leeing like this -- heaving like this. walking maybe about 50 yards or so. and as heme got out of his mercedes benz she e can, his signature black mouse suit, it was all ruffled, you know, bent upward like this, his coat tail, revealing the broad contour it is -- conning tours of his backside -- [laughter] and no one, of course, on that -- could have dared to put their hand on the great leader, especially in the vicinity of his derriere to straighten things out h except for his sister. but when he s needed his sister, she was not there. but on this recent summit, kim and putin visibly looked happy, like they need each other, you know? we're buddies now. so kim needs from putin

high-tech military technology, satellite rocket technology and so on, and putin needs from kim conventional weapons, artillery, shells which northas korea has n plentiful supply. so according to a report yesterday, i think, cbs, north korea has begun supplying russia with artillery in a methodical way recently. >> back to his sister's leadershipd abilities, we've really seen is she's capable of stepping up, taking the role of bad cop. and in your book you provide an example of when former president bill clinton traveled to north korea for the release of a journalist and she was there not only to manage the delegation, but going right up to -- [inaudible] to collect something. i won't say what, you'll have to read the book to find out.

but i'm so interested in this situation that you lay out for us. are there any other instances that you can tell the audience of where she played bad cop? >> yes. so the term good cop, bad cop, in 2018 i suppose we can say she played that role, the role of the good cop, the happy, charming face of her brutish nation by showing up in south korea and by meeting with various leaders next to her brother. and then, again, since the onset of covid she's played -- there's been a clever role reversal. she's played the role of the even worse cop to the bad cop that is her brother. so in that june 13 ifth statement when she -- the blowing up of his power built by, with south korean funds, she also said i will soon deploy our

troops into the border region, thus coming across as threatening to take military action. she says she had the authority to move troops. that's quite a statement. and people were quite nervous at the time. and about ten days later, kim jong un convene ised a meeting, and he announced to the world we will suspend that plan to deploy troops, thus coming across as the saner, more rehave strained party -- restrained party to his wild sister, to his twisted sister. so it's a very clever role reversal because they will revert, they will revert to their original roles. kim jong un the bad cop, his sister the good cop, at some point. and, again, she'll come out beaming, smiles and call for talks, and it will be difficult, i think next to impossible or or, for any u.s. administration or south korean administration to turn their back on her and

say we are not interested in peace. >> leading in to hostage a diplomacy, last friday we heard that u.s. private travis king was going to be released to u.s. officials. private king had previously been detained by north korean officials after darting across the dmz earlier this summer. it seems in the past north korea has shown more willingness to engage with u.s. leadership. would you say you're surprised that they didn't leverage this position more? >> i'll try to link that to your comment, question on bill clinton's visit to north korea, which i neglected to do, pardon me. sote travis king, private send class, youan know, low ranked u. army. soldier who had been in trouble with the law, he served time in south korea for vandalism and assault, for violation -- for

violence, he was to be flown if back to the united states and face some further disciplinary action by the dod. and as emma said, he posed as a tourist on a visit to the border village on july 18th and bolted across the border into north korea if and was detained. he probably has been regretting that decision ever since but was released a month if later, is back in the u.s. now. does north korea do hostage diplomacy? oh, yes. oh, yes. and one such example was detaining two young female american journalists in march 2009 who worked for a tv studio that was in part owned by al gore, former vice president. the two women and two other

colleagues, men, were filming along the border in the northeastern part of north korea and doing a documentary on the plight of north korean if women who escape into china and suffer all kinds of hardship. and apparently they waded into north koreanea territory. that's what a north korean claims. there's no delineated border, it's a river, and north korean guards came chasing after a them. they ran away into the chinese side, the two men got away, they ran a faster, but the women were detained. belisaling was beaten with the butt of a rifle right in her head, and she fainted. she told me in this person. anyway, so the two were sentenced to years of hard labor for anti-state activities, and bill clinton -- his former aide in the white house and post-white house years also for about 10 years, douglas band, i spoke with him for about 3 hours

about this episode, they borrowed a plane, a private jet from the hollywood mogul steve bing and flew into north korea upon kim jong un's request that bill clinton and no one else come and then i will release the u.s. detain knees. at the time i won't say what kim jong un was asking for, but she was there. at the time she had, he was about 211, about to turn 3222. -- 22. quite young. butly on a hot summer day in eay august, 2019, when the plane touched down, she was there. she came straight to douglas band completely ignoring the much more famous celebrity in former president clinton and said, give it to me now. doug band said we want to see the detain niece first, make sure they're in good health, and at the ban quest she was sort of managing the whole event,

issuing orders, directing traffic and and so on and was a participant inspect dipper. did not sit at the head tablens with her father, but the americans knew who she was. they wanted to get a glimpse, catch a glimpse of her brother, kim jong un, but he was nowhere to be seen. the americans were also interested in the health condition of kim jung-il because the previous summer he had suffered, kim jong kim jung-il, the father, had suffered a massive stroke, and experts said probably he'll be gone within next phi years and, indeed, he died in 2011. so this was a rescue mission, but the american delegation, of course, was interested in gaining some intelligence or information. but they were struck by her attitude, no if business, no nicety,ies give it to me now. >> i'm glad that you mentioned the south korean law inn 2020 that criminalized the sending of propaganda leaflets over the

dmz. it's myt understanding that ths has been taken back recently. >> well, the constitution court of south korea found it unconstitutional, so it's not, it's not going to be repealed anytime soon but not really enforced, i don't think. >> okay. what kind -- do you think we'll see a reassumption of materials being sent back over to north korea, and what kind of information do you think will be included? >> well, there are about 34,000 north koreans who have resettled in south korea. not all, of course, but many are activists. some are more outspoken and a bit more vigorous in their promotion, self-promotion. some announce the time, date, location of the balloon launch which gives north korea, of course, information, a pretext to cause trouble. there has not been any casualties. there has not been a skirmish,

the north and the south shooting at each other or at the activists. on october 010th, 20 # 14, there was an incident, a human rights group in south korea led by a former north korean did launch balloons, had preannounced it around 6 a.m.th and then a few hours later north koreans, in a show of proit's, they fired -- protest, they fired into the vicinity of the launch site. no one was there. the balloons were long gone. but they did fire rounds into that launch site in south korea which was concerning, of course. and then a couple of hours later the south koreans felt they had to protest as well, so they phoneddo north korea, we're goig to shoot some rounds so don't be there, and then sort of as protest. the previous south korean government blew that episode up. again, worrisome. as if we came to the brink of war. therefore, these balloons are

very dangerous. they could cause damage to even human lives and property for people living near the border. of course, no one would relish people doing such activities in your backyard, so that's understandable too. but my point is all this had been blown up into something that was very, very dangerous to scene lives as well as north koreans. well,hu the human right, the rit to receive in part, share information is a universal human right. of it's enshrined in article 19 of the u.n. universal declaration of human rights. and the drafters in the 1940s were very prescient. they said that to receive and to share information is a universal human right regardless of the medium and regardless of odders. orders.

so transnational country-to-country sendingng of leaflets is a basic right for the people of north korea and for people sharing such information. yet just because kim ill young called for this gag law as a coined by the senior british parliamentarian, lord david alton, just because kim said pass the law and send these people to jail, south korea was complying which i thought was a very unfortunate development. and many u.n. agencies, watchdogs, ngos all over the world harshly create e sized south korea's action at the time. but that's how it played, you know? xi issues an order, south korea complies in the name of piece. >> your comedy of errors chapter, you profess ifed what i perceived to be abe healthy the amount of 1ke79 schism leading into the summit -- >> you think so? just a little bit?

[laughter] >> between kim jong un and former president trump. but with it also appears that some of the pundits maybe had a little bit of amnesia about previous summits -- >> it will happen again. there will be collective amnesia the next time they say let's meet. >> yes. so i wanted to know if you could explain further why you're so skeptical and why singapore and hanoi summits were a disaster. >> it was all kind of preordained. you know, many people say north korea is unpredictable. i think what they usually mean is eccentric or unconventional. if there's a speak to the of unpredictability -- a streak of unpredictability, then there's an element of predictability in that unpredictable behavior. so by the time the first inter- korean summit meeting that kim i don't think held in april 2018, i'd seen this movie before. it was more like rambo 4 -- [laughter] and by rambo 4, you have a pretty good idea of how the

movie's going to g end. the first one was a very good movie, first blood. anyway -- [laughter] iti was very skeptical, of cour, and critical because kim jong unannounced during his new year's speech, new year's day speech in 2018 that he's amenable to sending a delegation to the winter games in south korea. and, of course, did send his sister. and when kim jong un called for talks with president trump, a message that was brought physically by south korean foreign policymakers to the white house on march 8th after having been wined and dine canned by none other than kim jobbing kim jong un -- [inaudible] that monday on march a 5th, trump said let's do it. the t sooner the better. and i knew that his -- was -- [inaudible] at the time. in was on live bbc radio progrm interview during the inter-korean summit on april

27th. the other guest was a very fine veteran reporter for a major or u.s. newspaper, and they were very cheerful and optimist in. it was different this time, it think it's for real and so on. i didn't say anything. and the moderator said, what about you, mr. lee in well, you know,, i'm a bit skeptical. why where you so cynical? and i replied, welsh when you've been repeatedly mobbed by the tag team of reality and history, yeah, one grows a bit skeptical. when i say rambo 4, i really mean it. we first saw this, the crazy-looking north korean dictator coming out and coming across as not only not crazy, but completely charming and super intelligent and well informed. it was in 91972, the original leader -- 1972, the original a great leader, reading the -- leading the international environment with president nixon's visit to china in

february, 1972, that rattled a lot of nations, both china's dependent client states like north korea and north vietnam, and america's dependent client states like taiwan and south korea, japan. are they going to abandon us? the fear of abandonment, you know, b it's a stock phrase in y field, but it's real. so what did he do, act belligerent? if no. of in may 197 72 for the very first time kim ill sung received reporters from the new york times, salisbury and lee. salisbury was a very famous former moscow bureau chief, and john lee was the bureau chief in japan. theic two were entertained by km ill sunging in his office on may 26th, 1972. one month if later, harrison reported for the washington post was bear towned -- entertained, and then in july a harvard law

professor was received by kim il song. and all three delegations said he's a vision e their. he's a dictator, yes. but he's rational, he's well informed. and he told the new york time it is reporters things that were very sweet like, you know, we have to maintain our anti-u.s. stance because i have a constituency to please. americans killed a lot of people, so even if i don't mean it entirely, we have to say anti-u.s. things. you know, the south korean military man, i'm open to meeting with him. without preconditions. and, of course, american forces, u.s. troops in south korea, they'll have to go eventually, but that doesn't have to be a precondition for talks with the south koreans. sounds very reasonable. finish and so on. rambo 2 was in 2000 when kim jung-il a appointmented -- to power upon the death of his father in 19 is

9 -- 1994. for the next 6 years never traveled outside his country, never received a foreign dignitary, and then he showed up in beijing in may 2000. why? because he had the first ever inter-korean summit. in june the south korean president was to visit. mand in july he hosted a man called vladimir putin. that is the first and to date the only time a top russian or soviet leader ever visited north korea, and putin, i think, will repeat that in -- that and visit again soon. and then what did kim jung-il do? if stop there? if no, he spent a potential envoy to president clinton in october 2000 and vice marshal -- [inaudible] came with a big envelope carrying a nice cordial invitation letter for president clinton to visit. clintond, was very interested, d 12 days later secretary of state

madeleine albright was in pyongyang hosting kim jung-il, and she actually reported back to her boss, president clinton, that you should make the trip. and he wasor going to except for the vote recount, florida vote recount following the election on no # 77th between al a gore and george w. bush, and gore did not concede defeat until mid december. december 13th. so time simply ran out for clinton to make that trip before stepping down in january the following year. but kim jung-il was undeterred. in january he visited china and visited all the special, the major -- special economic zone cities like shanghai, shenzhen. he visited huawei, tech company, repeating what dun can zoo ping, the first asian dictator turned reformer, had 01 years,9 years

before in the early 1980s, leading his nation, china, on a path toward gradual opening and reform. and then he took the train to moscow and met with putin in august in 2001, received the japanese prime minister in september 2002 and so on. so kim jong un, rambo 3 -- or rambo 4. kim jong un, what did he do? .. and then as we know the rest is history. he has made four visits to china. the last was on his birthday in january 2018. shthere is another china visit

coming i wouldim say. and president xi visited in jun. so there is a strategy to all this. north korea does not go berserk and ask for a nuclear war. they go through this letter of graduatedno escalation and then they know when to dial it and back it down and they come down the ladder. to a charming exciting piece and they will do it again. i do not know when. maybe next year, it may be two years from now. but they play a central role in the next provocation. >> doctor lee if bidden advocate for tougher sanctions on north korea. election of the nine states organizations like the un could make it tougher stance against north korea military provocation as well as a cyber activities?

>> sanctions enforcement like domestic law enforcement is a very hard work. it is a laborious, labor-intensive. you have to do the investigation, the surveillance build up your case, take it to the courts and then you have to monitor and enforce the law. even the toughest criminal laws on the books if the police, the fbi or the law enforcement folks are not enforcing the law on that kind of law enforcement needs to be maintained. you cannot just do it for a year end let go. we have never had sustained tough meaningful sanctions enforcement against north korea ever. in 2017 it did get tough but lasted for a year and then in 2018 it just fell apart should. most nations of the world most un member states they don't care. and of course with putin's

invasion of ukraine we can't even pass a condemnation eight resolution of the un security council because russia and china have been actively blocking any such attempt to denounce north korea even though it north korea has fired way more than 100 ballistic missile since january 2022 and numerouson intercontinental ballistic missiles. nothing is ever done. so dwelling on the mistakes of the past is miserable and probably not all that helpful. but just to give you one example, during the obama administration there was really tough sanctions and enforcement against iran. for violating u.s. law sanction laws on tehran in iraq and sudan and some other countries. the obama administration vigorously enforce sanctions and impose fines in the hundreds of

millions of dollars hundred major international banks mostly in allied nations. 8.9 billion on the fourth largest bank in the world the biggest in france. edthey pay, why? otherwise shall be blocked out of the u.s. dollar system. let's death for a major corporation or bank. over 600 million on standard charter. over 600 million fine on ing. 1.9 billion was fine at 1.4 billion. tokyo mitsubishi 315 million. so all of these banks, friendly nations mostly they pay, they comply. with respect to north korea sanction violations it's most of the chinese banks which are some of the biggest in the world

agricultural bag,er construction bank, bank of china and so on. there is never been any attempt on any administration to penalize and levy such fines with the knowledge of china's serial violation of un laws and security council resolution as it too late to try to do that? i do not know i'm growing pessimistic. again if there is ever in attempt to seriously enforce sanctions against north korea by penalizing north korea's partners then the point is such efforts need to be maintained over time. but again leaders in democracy want an agreement, call out a legacy, have a flashy summit more than doing the hard work overtime. it's a strategic disadvantage for the united states at a strategic advantage for the north korean dictator in perpetuity. beck's next year the united states will be having a presidential election.

what are you most concerned about what that outcome and what are you most hopeful for? >> let me try to be a bit tedious and deflect that question and who do i want to be elected? i think donald trump. because the two men used to write love letters as president trump himself said were they met several times in singapore, in vietnam, at the border village on june 30, 2019 for a photo op as well. they had some kind of a rapport and as i feared, upon the first meeting in singapore on june 12 president trump, who had delivered the previous yearr in 2017 on a visit to south korea

speaking and addressing the south korean parliament national assembly in 2017, trump gave the most brilliant speech on north korea human rights violation. it was inspired. how long did that interest in their crime against you meant it last? it went out the window. during his press conference on june 12 after his meeting a reporter for the "washington post" asked about human rights in north korea president trump defended north korea. they said it's rough over there but it's rough and a lot of other places. a tough leader doing his things he has got to take a's toughest dancer. though i see that kind of dynamic. the possibility of that dynamic and the siblings probably manipulating resident trumps propensity towardshe vanity.

again thinking he can patronize them or control them by virtue of his own great talent, intelligence, and charisma. that is a dangerous assumption they are easily controlled. >> would like to open up to q&a no. please state your name and affiliation. over here in the front. >> i am a member here at the society. i finished your book this morning. i found that you're speaking so iran over to hear you speak. i was confused by some aspects of your bookplate as a westerner in certain asian cultures.

i was thinking about romania. north korea seems like a monarchy in some ways even though it's a communist regime. the way it romania one time seemed like had a communist ms. g regime with aspects of a monarchy in it. i wanted to know if you studied the history of korea. and recognize tendencies or mindsets of yesteryear that are incorporated into the mindset of the kim family? especially in terms of racial purity. i don't know if the subject of your book is using racism as juvenile as a troll will be. but there is a true ideology of racial superiority in korean

society with her part of society. and i was wondering if you could help us explained. it seems confusing to us in the west because communist is supposed to make people more equal. so it seemed very strange it communist regime is also teobviously unequal. i was wondering if you could help us and get us started and understand in class in north korea right now? >> thank you. whitman face it famously said do i contradict myself i have multitudes that multiple contradictory society. they pretend toit be in the system. it's the most unequal, the most

repressive, the most extreme personality arguably in world history. historians on both the left and right are the ideological spectrum have long agreed north korea is the most perfected, most advanced totalitarian system the world is ever seen. there it let kindergarten level. note korean absolute monarch has in his practice over the past seven we have intellectual senior official here. i think you can attest to it. you need a travel permit to go from your town to the next town over. these two have a random

latenight searches like security folks show up in the middle of the night just to make sure you do not have an unauthorized visitor. a monumental un study that un commission of inquiry report on human rights and north korea published in feby makes a very serious allegation that the nature, the gravity and the scale of north korea's crimes against humanity's reveal a state that has no parallel in the contemporary world. that is verbatim. north korea is guilty or knowingly causing prolonged starvation. these are serious allegations. deliberate mass starvation. ". and backs it up with evidence.

so yes is north korea full of contradictions? yes. and one could argue all systems in varying degrees. but we are talking about different level of contradiction here. north korea is so unique, so different i often say north korea is uniquely unique. although my grade school grammar teacher would see that as a violation. you cannot beat more or less if you're really unique. but it's unique to be unique. north korea is a population of 25 or 26 million not tiny but relatively small country. yet maintains a standing army of recloser million. half the population. >> yes. south korea has it on the way in terms of the number of able-bodied men between the ages

servant in the north korea arm armyat any given time is one fih of the mail population. nowhere on earth to see that only china and the u.s., it may be russia have slightly bigger standing armies than north korea twe're talking hundreds of millions and billions of people. in terms of its defense budget information 25 and 30% is on defense. so north korea is very different. north korea is moses. but to be the most unique aspect of north korea the most disturbing aspect of north korea i dwell on this on that later chapter is the phallic north korea is the first and only case in world history in

industrialize, urbanized country undergoing a famine. i believe it shall remember forever the only industrialized country to have suffered a major famine struck north korea for about 1994 until 1998. how may people died? we do not know. there are estimates of half a million to over 3 million we can say with confidence many people starve to death during those years. what is a problem? starvation, famine like conditions and other countries and many other parts of the world. none of them, no other country in any major un food security study is a fully industrialized urbanized literate society.

by literacy some by the age of 16 or 18. her nose up basic sentences can read and write basic sentences like my name is so-and-so. we are not talking high school level or graduate level type of literacy. some very poor countries agriculture based countries and other parts ofof the world there are especially when the female population alarming rate of literacy people could not write their own name cannot count from one -- 10. people who are literally are numerate sometimes as high as 80%.on of the disco difficulties economic disadvantage in underprivileged society. north korea is the opposite. it achieved industrialization in brazil south korea did it was ws richer than south korea until lethe early 1970s somehow it took a great leap backwards. but the problem is there was bad port soil management the soviets

came to a halt with the collapse of the soviet union what did he do after his father died in jul? the spent about $800 million wh which to build to renovate this palace to make it into the most extravagant in the world. he spent $1.5 billion on his missile programs alone during those years he spent another 1.3 billion or so on purchasing about 40 outdated soviet mags from ukraine and because asked on and so on for he had money with which to import food. how much are we talking about? maybe $200 million. if he had done that spent which to buywith food and distributeou that equitably. no one wouldld have died and che

not too. since then it's been almost 40 years since the famine. same conditions similar, comparable conditions have returned since covered there are reports of piles of dead bodies from starvation piling up in various parts throughout north korea including richer big cities across the border. and, over the past 30 years again north korea and this is study by the annual study the prevalence of undernourishment among theme population north koa sometimes number three in the world it's always in the top fiveep together with hater, central african republic, zambia and soe on. again illiterates economies often beset by internal unrest. north korea defective peace time and industrialize literate society. so the ongoing hunger.

north koreamm and some north koa defenders who are uninformed or ideologically committed to defending north korea they say things like the famine and hunger today over the past 30 years is due to u.s. sanctions and climate change. u.s. sanctions there are no u.s. sanctions of north korean goods until 2016. not a single u.s. north korea sanctions legislation until 2016. there were no un sanctions whatsoever against northh korea until north korea's first nuclear test in october 2006. the famine started two years before that. in the mid- 90s. in some people. also say u.s. sanctions and climate change that's why the north koreans are hungry. it's a novel of nature and a logic to me that climate change,

each year without fail stops right at the border with china and south korea. it affects only north korea. no one is starving to death, hardly in either south korea or china. in fact they are doing pretty well. so this is, as the u.s. study alleges a man main man sustained hunger that is passed down from generation to the next generation through this insidious and political classification system. every north korean is thrust into a political class. you can inherit your parents whether their favorite class of the lowest class. your identity, your life ahead is charted out for you at birth through this hereditary critical discriminatory classification system. the full of contradictions and it is a brutal regime.

>> hope you're up for any other questions? >> thanks very much for this very insightful talk. my question is, what do you see as northow korea's endgame if yu will? twenty years from now? fifty years from now? is this the state they choose to continue to be? or is there something different you think you might emerge over several decades into the future? >> thank you. we are being recorded, right? i should not be too flippant. [laughter] once upon aat time when i was a college student my roommate suggested hey, let's go to a buffet, eat to access. i think a pig out was the word

he used. in the go bar hopping. as some but not entirely opposed to that kind of lifestyle i nonetheless cynically turned to my friend andey said hey victor, is that really necessary? and then my friend grew indignant and turned to me and said are you really necessary? ever since i've been grappling with that extensional question in my really necessary question rick i don't know probably not. if you were to impose that very same question to kim jong un and to the nation he rules over why do you have to exist when there is a very, very attractive successful or wealthy free korean state across the border. we know that korea remained under a single policy undivided for over 1000 years. until 1945 in the greatest wars

divided korea it was to be a temporary division to facilitate the surrender of japanese troops dispersed throughout the peninsula but here we are still decades later. would he be content to be relegated to be the great leader of the korean state? i have not had a chance to ask him that that i fear perhaps not, why? because they say things like we will finish the revolution by incorporating the entire korean peninsula. they say things in the constitution like the supreme national past of the party and the state is the completion of the indication program. due date referred to being absorbed by southve korea? i doubt it. so, do they have malign

intentions when they incorporating the south korean territory and people? i think so. where is the evidence? again they say such things all the time but they lie all the time too, yes. only big gamble was the korean war that the grandfather started. and persuaded stalin to give him the green light to go ahead because all signs coming out of washington in those days for it that the u.s. does not care. basically the u.s. and come to abandon south korea despite having governed the south korea 45 -- 48 responsible people like secretary of state dean atchison, general macarthur and so on said so publicly. commerce invasion could happen in anyny place why obsess over korea?

it is a backward country. worse aback than when events turned over with news of the north korean invasion the truman administration saw that invasion is aly test of the u.s. resolve. korea it was not intrinsically worthwhile valuable asset to the united states in those days. but to take no action and let this happen would probably, americans thought, encourage stalin who must be controlling his puppet in his 30s at the time it would only stimulate the other side to test american interest more aggressively in europe. so the u.s. made up its mind to take action to defend south korea. that failed attempts i think that failed business over supreme national task or uniting korea i don't think north korea

has given up on that. this dedication that nuclear and technology is an essential component that is to become as north vietnam fit by the early 1970s, late threats, a political burden to the united states by becoming a constant series through audible nuclear threat to the u.s. mainland with the i see b in technology. and then sue forll peace after small-scale provocations. and as vietnam achieved in fact factors signing a peace treaty with the united states by having all u.s. troops withdraw from vietnam and congress blocked these promises of aid to the

south and then as the north did in 1975. too many people outlandish in the cultural terms as well as economic political realms. north korea is such a bad country has such ambitions? it seems absurd. unbelievable. i think it too north korea is not only a believable and compelling mission it's a nonnegotiable proposition for ever remain in theory a poor korean state will south korea was a magnet to its own people it's an existential threat ending up like east germany perhaps one day. i think they have a grand strategy is jarring is that applied to north korea may sound. >> any other questions at this

time? >> hi, thank you so much for this talk it is fascinating to hear your insight space bar if he could speak to your experience of it expert witness? >> yes. university of virginia top students traveled to north korea and late december with a travel group and was detained as the group was to depart from the airport. and north korea charged for a serious crime of entering the prk under the auspices of the cia with the purpose of the single-handed unity of the d prk that was the official charged north korea made to the central news agency later that month in

january 20002016. a lot of people thought stole something, a poster know even north korea does not make that claim.he he is controlled by the cia he came into north korea to do major damage that's what north korea claims. and was showcased in a coerced confession of his wrongdoings in front of the cameras on leap day february 29 and was physically afraid. i read a lot of force statements using north korean also using north korean verbiage like tpr korea in english d prk the republic of korea the former name of north korea fight writing out dtr korea.

which is not natural to our ears i also say make a valiant effort to signal to his family, his parents this is all a show coerced. he kept saying his father lost his business the family is in dire straits economically. he mentioned the name of his father's company incorrectly. his local church had promised to give him $200,000 for his younger siblings collegest tuitn that he was responsible for as the eldest child. and he would also be given a used car by this church that was controlled by the cia, it just made no sense because they are very secure economically the business is very successful. also we learned later he was a

jew and did not attend church. who is really a sinister ploy and north korea did not allow the swedish embassy that has served as the liaison for nancy's government and the cases of detainees in north korea. did not allow anyone to talk to auto. later the next year the leaves believes andhe came home brain-. not in a peaceful, but writhing in pain he was deaf, blind, and mute and physical audible pain and died days later. did north korea intend to kill him by torturing him and there

is evidence of torture there is a 4-inch scar on his left ankle that was not there before he went to north korea and one it seems north korea planted an electrode to administer electric shock which is a common north korea torture tactic. the fact that he was brain-dead strongly indicates according to neurologists there is a cessation of blood flow to his brain for may be over 15 minutes. there's more than reasonable beyond reasonable evidence of toys church is very high degree of certainty with intent to kill? no but that's not necessary in the civil lawsuits that operate bravely brought and at the trial in federal court the u.s. district court of columbia d.c. in december 2018 that explained

chief justice howell explained there is probable cause and that is the standard. it is more likely than not north korea kidnapped, tortured, and killed extrajudicial killing, unlawful killing and awarded the family $501 million based on precedents basted on other evidence of hostagetaking and torture of americanet citizens s a deterrent to increase the price quite a bit as a deterrent to north korea so it north korea thanks twice about doing such things u.s. citizens. again it was my honor to participate to write a written testimony, a declaration i laid out that i believe took a person as hostage in early 2016 that an

extra layer of security or security blanket is north korea it was gearing up for major provocations that year. throughout 2016 for example. onna june the fourth north korea conducted the nation's fourth the first and some three years. north korea conducted the nation's first submarine missile test in april and august it shot a long-range missile for the first time in three years on february 7 and so on. it certainly knew eight new sanctions lot was coming a meaningful sanctions legislation this was in theth news. so i think having eight u.s. hostage mike temper in the americanec will to really put pressure on north korea economically, politically or even with military and so on.

i cannot prove that beyond a reasonable doubt but that is my hunch based on over 20 years of study of north korea history. and chief justice agreed that was a reasonable line of thinking. based on other evidence and testimony byen other experts, doctors, dentists middle, most teeth had been pulled out and implanted a back about half an inch inside his mouth toward the back of his mouth in the wrong place pulling out tooth extraction is another common torture of north korea. so again it's not necessary for the lawsuit to prove north korea intended to kill auto. what they did already is bad enough, take him as hostage,

torture him and ended up killing him. it is a landmark legal case. >> before we conclude is there anything else you like to share with thehi audience the next tie he smiles and says let's talk let's try not to all fall together into collective amnesia and raise euphoria and peace. but take them seriously. she l is not to be underestimatd just because she's a pretty face, a young lady, a powerful hperson all that makes for an interesting figure. she does not have pure peaceful designs the nature over dynasty she hopes to inherit one day the nature of the regime. the personality that needs to be maintained. the high privilege, extravagant

lifestyle, power to have people executed on a whim to plate god deciding who lives, who dies rejust because they look at me d away i do not like. these were traditionally of mail supreme leaders. but according to reports from different locations and north korea inrs may of 2021 she has been issuing such execution orders too. she is not a nice lady. d she is a fastening political figure i forgot to mention issued several statements saying basically her fingers on the nuclear button. in a statement on april 3 and april 5 last year she said that if south korea shoots even all single bullet into north korean territory i will on leash are states nuclear forces what she said nuclearin force.

and bring about something akin too total ruin and destruction. very specific. she says she has the authority her brother has given her the authority to do that. that is why i say she is the most dangerous woman arguably the most dangerous woman in the world. we have neverer seen this armed with nuclear weapons issuing threats of preemptive nuclear attack against a peaceful neighbor, south korea. so she is to be watched and to be taken very seriously. >> please join me in thanking doctor lee. >> thank you very much. ♪ nights at nine easton c-span encore presentation of our 10 part series of books that shaped

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