service. today watch c-span 2024 campaign trail a weekly roundup of c-span coverage providing one stop shop to discover where candidates are traveling across country and what they're saying to voters this along with first hand accounts from political reporters updated poll numbers, fund raising data and campaign ads. watch c-span 2024 campaign trail today 6 eastern on c-span online at c-span.org, or download as a podcast on c-span now free mobile app or wherever you get your podcast, c-span your unfiltered view of politics. week niects at 9 eastern c-span encore prergs of books that shaped merck c-span partnered

with congress that had key pieces of literature with a profound impact on our country tonight we'll feature the common law written by oliver home jr. 1981 a series of lectures given on criminal and civil law and other legal issues -- our guest is jeffrey rosen president and ceo of the national constitution center watch c-span encore presentation of books that shaped america weeknights 9 eastern on c-span or go to c-span.org/books that shape america to view series and learn more about each book featured. good evening everyone and welcome i'm brad graham co-owner of mycs and pros -- it is very exciting, for all of us to be hosting cassidy hutchison who is here to talk, of course, about her new book, enough. but let me first note that the

evening event is a joint effort bygt george washington universiy and politics and pros. university and our bookstore have been working together for some time now and putting on events and i would like to think that the gw staff for helping maketh this event possible. so i would be surprised if there'sre anyone here not familr with cassidy's captivating and pivotal appearance before the house select committee investigating the january 6th assault on the capitol. her stunning testimony, early last year as a former special assistant in the white house who had personally witnessed the goings on at the highest levels around donald trump. provided vivid and damming details about just how far the president and senior aids were

willing to go to deny the results of the 2020 election and maintain power. watching cassidy testify, the rest of us could only imagine at that time what incredible pressure she had been under not to tell all she knew about what hadab gone on and what incredibe courage and sense of patriotism it had taken to go public with her story. well, her book now reveals just what she went through. it starts at the beginning recounting her childhood in a working class family in new jersey and later her remarkably swift rise in washington to the upper reaches of trump's white house only to become increasinglyed disillusioned by chaos and wrongful behavior that

she saw. having once been deeply under trump's sway cassidy faced a choice between continued loyalty to the president and loyalty to the country. wrenching as crunches was for herin book says going through it led to ay stronger sense of herself. in conversation that with cassidy this evening will be a distinguished house democrat who has led efforts to hold trump to account jamie -- a constitutional law expert congressman has represented --

i just wantsoed to say couple of more lines about jamie but he's a constitutional law expert and represented maryland eighth district and served on the january 6th select committee and he's alsoo authored several boos and most recent if you haven't read it you should most recent wass unthinkable chronicled trauma in early 2021 as he grieved the suicide of his son while leading a second impeachment proceedings against trump. so got to say ladies and gentlemen please welcome -- [applause] if you haven't on with the show. [applause] sorry about thatt we didn't mean to crash the introduction. we were motioned to go in and --

so -- just too excited to go here on the other hand -- [laughter] well hello gw and -- thank you politics and pros. for doing this and -- [applause] thank you cassidy suggesting me as interlock -- interrogator today. >>da wouldn't be the first time. [laughter] >> thank you to congressman for agreeing to be here also all of you cor.. for coming out tonight i won't be on and a half of the congressman butut i appreciate y'all -- all right now you've written an extraordinary andan riveting captivating book i have a thousand questions for you. it is a number one "new york

times" best seller. [applause] and already -- they have run out of books one thing that is cool about the book is there's no index in it and -- >> and my dad used to say people in washington read books backwards they start at the index look for their name and go to forward too see if they're there and then they issue -- >>ui ruins that battle and they have to read it. >> exactly. if you want to know if you're in cassidy's book you have to read the book in order to figure it out. [laughter] look, i want to salute you on the achievement of doing it. i know how hard it is to write a book and i know this has been a tough and crueling time for you in a lot of ways. this is a book -- which when you finish you wish a lot more had been said. not a lot less. which is -- true of most political books -- [laughter] but ----

>> i in a while. >> so i have a lot of questions for you. and the personal stuff as fascinating or more fascinating than political stuff. so i want to start with the personal stuff. you -- you write your family did not really talk about politics growing up yet you grew fascinated by politics and -- in 2012, it was the romney obama race and that was when you checked out the debate. you investigated a little bit and you thought that you would become a republican at that point and identified -- will you just give us a glimpse into what your thinking was and what were the -- >> i can read the smirk on your face what was ideas and images that motivated you at that point? you know, political scientist say a lot of peoplen, are most influenced by their own family

in terms of -- how they t end up registering to vote or thinking about politics. but what was it that grabbed you about romney or gop at that point? >> i wish there was a very straightforward answer to it. so -- going back to the way so when i was growing up my uncle joe who was one of the most formidable people in my life he was in the army and he was really the only person i knew and my family is skeptical about government and didn't have fond feelings about government so i sorts of had that bad sentiment in my mind and i had this man my uncle joe who did serve in the military so i had this idea of public service, and i was fascinated by it and sort of wanted to go into public service from a young age myself although not really knowing what that might look like. so during the 2012 election we were assigned to watch one of the debates and i remember watching the first deacts and listening to a former president

barack obama -- and mitt romney go back forth and is it wasn't particular one issue but it wasn't one particular issue that stood out as much as i liked what mitt romney was say about the party agenda as a whole and made sense to me and at the time too i was 15 years old. [laughter] but -- >> it is hard to, you know, keep reminding myself how young you are. m but you're exactly the age of our youngest daughter you're 26 now right -- >>re correct. >> what's remarkable is when a lot of events were taking place when you're 24 -- or 25 you were by far the youngest person in the white house and you were also the adult inwe the room most often. [laughter] but let's just -- one -- i have another question of your childhood because you describe i think in a very delicate way a

childhood that had chaos and instability in it and initi thik it was when your mom decided to move to indiana and went with your mom and dad had not come to join you forgh a while and you describe how -- at recess other kids would go out and play and you stayed in and talked with the teacher. and it seems like your entire life you've had this extraordinary identification with older people who have taken such anen interest in you. from, you know, mark meadows to president trump to -- >> you. >> professors -- >> liz cheney matt gaetz although that's different. [laughter] >> think about the credible thoughts. [laughter] [applause] so now -- you can get a analytical or

nothing at all but have you noticed thate quality in yoursf and felt more comfortable with older people than with your peers -- and you've also been intellectually precocious as well and being bored by what was going on with the standard curriculum wanting to learn from teachers as of as you could and looking for always for opportunities to study more deeply specifically government public policyy politics. >> i would say two prong of that. one, i was raised in an environment where privacy was power. and i think that also sort of carried through my adult life that's something i'm sort of -- great element to privacy and people should always have right to remainem private. but it's the -- it was different in the way that i was raised in terms of like -- we very much kept to ourselves. i had -- >> that from your dad mostly?

>> predominantly but when my parents got divorced it was within us and when my friends moved i wanted -- and i did have other friends my age but i did feel probably middle school i felt that could i identify and at least communicate better with adults which i resented at the time and i was tall and not grown since sixthth grade so the fact that i looked leak -- so then on the other side of it too, i felt more intrigued by adult conversation not just in the sense of what they were discussing. but i felt that i was more challenging w and i could have more thoughtha provoking conversations as adult more so than people my own age. you know that's not completely universal there's been incredible people in my age group that have --

>>t almost immediately to a question that several people asked one person wrote, how did someone with your intelligence and heart end up with the trump crew -- and -- [laughter] but before we get to that i want to jump the gun on that. >> time to think about that -- you have a fight with your dad that struck me in the book. where he's watching the apprentice which was his favorite show, and you said -- i wish that you would spend as much time on your family as you spend with donald trump and the apprentice so that was remarkable moment. and what was your take away and made you think about donald trump? >> fourth grade so ten years old. >> she was ten years old when apprentice was on -- so fact check that. but -- [laughter] no i -- so that was toward fifth my

parents were on the verge of getting divorced or at least -- progressing towards that. and i want to process this too my father we had a very strange relationship. now and even growing up, but he would very formative in my life and for a better force i wouldn't be here today without better force that i learned from him. >> taught you to be a warrior. >> again, up to the readers -- whatever you want to make of that. but you know, he's a very complicated man but i do -- i love him and he loves me the way that he knew how to love me. and with the apprentice -- ii had this very faint idea of who donald trump was. i grew up in new jersey so i feel j like a lot of people sort of had an idea of who donald trump was. but father owned his own businessss owned a landscaping company. >> not four seasons --

[laughter] >> no. looking for the next best business adventure and he put donald trump on the pedestal as a man who built this empire now i look back more recently in the last year -- [laughter] but you know i didn't really grow up personally idolizing donald trump but those who idolized the mentality behind that and behind what he had said so -- when he was running for president one i didn't take it seriously at first but two it wasn't this -- i didn't have this four dplengsal view off what a trump presidency would look like based on my fourth grade experience. >> that was your first encounter with donald trump when your dad was watching him on apprentice. >> i remember also when i was in

middle school high school go down to atlantic city sometimes and what was the trump hotel or trump casino was like my stepfather he's -- chosen father call him buck paul talk about donald trump but he was sort of a household name. not where i was pushed to adore him myself but like a sense of premonition there's a man that i know who he is that's being outed as incredible businessman and this american giant and then -- i see him first time -- >> when they make the movie of your book he will appear as a cameo in the first scenes -- sand in the background. >> he'll be thrilled. >> why was your mom the essential person in your household as you put it? >> after my parents got divorced -- a lot of times i felt like it was my mom and i against the world and they had a complicated

divorce. and i did choose -- writing this book was difficult because i -- you mention psychoanalysis earlier i'm not big on psychoanalysis so when my life was my life and it was -- sort of like survival mode which i didn't fully appreciate or realize at the time. but you know, we got by day by day with a strange relationship and i took the role as intermediary and had a low paying job and relied on him financially so we were trying to keep that relationship there. so her and i moved gears -- in fifth grade so i'm 11 but in the years after through high school, graduation relied on each other as emotional support but also as support for our family to make sure that we could get by. >> you made a trip to washington, d.c. and felt this

affinity with the city in a kind of ethical sense spiritual sense you knew that it would be an important part of your destiny. what was it in washington when you came here how old were you doing that trip? ?>> second grade so after my second grade going to third grade. [laughter] >> so -- >> she has an amazing memory and she doesn't forget anything which -- is makes her a bad ass witness on capitol hill. [laughter] >> you're welcome. [laughter] [applause] >> so i when i first and my uncle joann my aunt had just moved from indiana h to washington, d.c. he had come back from afghanistan and moved he was working at thehe pentagon we arrived late in the night and had an apartment in crystal city and balcony overlooked the skyline and i remember the next morning waking up and looking out and just feeling --

mesmerized with the city skyline and i hadha not gone into the cy yet and later that day we did a walk on the washington mall lincoln memorial ending at the capitol. and the first time i felt this like what i call like a gravitational pull was when i felt the washington monument i don't know why, but it was -- forever been this -- >> psychoanalysis for now -- [laughter] >> another person here. no -- but we passed the washington monument we got to the capitol and i have a picture of this quite embarrassing but i started crying and i looked at my mom i wanted to stay we moved around the a lot and can we move to washington, d.c. i want to move to washington, d.c. but i remember we were at the capitol looking at the capitol and i --

like it was that moment that it kind of clicked for me where i -- you know i had this idea of public service i had been to a city very young. but no idea what it would look like but i felt that i belonged here and every time i would visit d.c. and then leave it would be a very emotional experience for me so i sort of lived with a goal of how can i get back? >> first person in your family to go to college. >> i was. >> and you went to christopher newport in virginia not far from d.c.. tell us about how you actually got involved in republican politics and government service because one of the remarkable things about the book is how many of the people who are key actors in the drama of january 6th and insurrection and attempted cue were people that you would met before or you knew before? yeah we are including years in

washington, d.c.. >> yeah. so -- io mean jim jordan was somebody kevin mccarthy you met nancy pelosi and a story about her and so -- so how did you get involved and make like that rapid sense in the politics so that you actually knew a lot of these players including liz cheney? >> yeah. so after my sophomore year or during my sophomore year of college i had worked my freshman summer going into sophomore year worked through sophomore year and worked summer after freshman year because i had goal okay i need to spend summers interning so i can get a job in washington. >> college kids are taking notes by the way -- after winter break sophomore year i locked myself in a study room and in filled out an application for every single house republican office and sent them out. no idea what i was doing but

iftionz like our next are remain perfect and in the office i got several interviews including one in leadership with then majority whip steve scalise and offered to and i was taking intership with steve scalise summer of 2017. and when i started working there, i started working with the member services team which is -- but member services is in charge of managing relationships with all of house republicans. so as the intern, i got to know the majority of the republican conference that summer. and you know, i think that that sort of set me up to -- for the future opportunities including next summer when i interned into legislative office affairs in the white house. >> and that was under who hired you that first time when you

went to the house? >>rc mark short was the director ofec legislative affairs at the time. >> yeah. and he's also comes to play a role inay january 6th -- >> so mark short was the director of legislative affairs when interned in legislative affairs. and then when i -- was hired full-time in summer of 2019 mark short became the vice president chief of staff and until the end. >>. back to the question that my friendt asked -- which is -- how did someone like you who comes through both in person and in this -- book you've written as honest and decent and loyal and very law-abiding -- come to basically do anything that was asked of you by a president who is speaking this is -- editorial here on my part.

totally disloyal totally dishonest totally untrustworthy and so on -- so how does what happen that's remarkable story and important for us to understand in democracy. >> not trying to -- read the book to everybody -- but i'll just preface with two -- >> two questions and i loved the book. >> already has it. but i want to briefly talk about one moment so i did vote for donald trump in 2016. didn't put all of that much thought into it. i didn't think that he had a chance of winning and i was dating somebody at the time who was a republican did not like donald trump. [laughter] but was nothing short at the time i was not -- fully what i call like team trump or like a believer in the agenda really but i went to the

trump 100th day rally in pennsylvania. at the end of april, and it wasn't so much the policy that had attracted again this is -- i try to be very candid and vulnerable in the book and flaws were i have them and there's a lot of them. but i -- it wasn't so much about the policy at the time. it was, you know, i was at the rally i had heard about this effect that it has on you where you go to a reallily and feel pulled to him but then -- so i'm standing there looking around and i'm looking at all of these people who one are mesmerized by him and trump line one had tears in their eyes. looking at the man and -- but they're all people that i felt like i grew up around and my parents voted for the first time infi 2016 for trump looking around like maybe he is the politician that can change things. maybe he is -- that person that everyone is saying that he is.

but at that time my goal was not to work for donald trump. i did want to work in legislativee affairs i interned in legislative affairs at the end of that internship my goal was to get back to capitol hill i was offered a job at the white house after i graduated and regardless of our politics here and i am, you know, i told the story in a way where i try to tell in real time. where i felt how my mind was worgs at the time versus how i came to be at where i am at now but when i took the job full-time job in legislative affairs, it was an honor to serve in executive branch and might r not be most answer but i was honored i think anybody who has the opportunity to serve in government whether it's the legislative branch wherever it is -- you should take it. it is an invaluable experience and -- i wasn't a part of a swinger for a a lot of the -- it o was a slow progression to point where i was the public

servant and then the loyal foot soldier. >> got you. so that was kind of the trajectory you're on because so much patriotism in the book like when -- you see the flag when you see washington -- when you see the monuments so -- you'reum carried away with the idea of being in government and just being able to serve in the executive branch right, but did you ever have any misgivings or second thoughts about anything going onn when you were at the white house before january 6th? like for example, there was a moment when you -- when amy coney barrett was being nominated to the supreme court. and did it even -- was there ever any discussion about the fact that mcconnell gop had blocked my constituents merrick garland getting hearing before the term and you know two months before endth of trump term went to watr ford --

got it through like but was think any -- did they give you pause or anything like that give you pause? rming there were -- broad question there were a lot of moments that did give me pause i want to be delicate with the way that i answer this yes i work in legislative affairs. i was promoted to work in the chief of staffs office. because i had developed a relationship with then congressman mark meadows. but when i took the job with mark i was very clear with hem that i was working for the office of the chief of staff not chief of staff mark meadows baa i saw myself as working for the institution not the individual and that was -- a clear difference to me. at the time i wasn't fully aware you know there's this -- very strong sense of loyalty in the trump administration and i saw myself as loyal to the

government and to the office and the job i had at some point there was lines became blurred and at some point it was very, very blurred. so that being said, there were things that gave me pause especially during the coronavirus pandemic and when we would go to the hill to meet with leadership speaker pelosi and chuck schumer but i way i saw my job was i had a job to do and whatever i had to do to get that job done like i wasn't there to negotiate policy. iti was there provide trying to provide council to principles that -- were how i saw my job the better job i do and sound council i can provide them with the better this will go. as a whole if that sort of answers question. >> and you talk about covid -- a lot about mix messages that were being sent and the strange signals and -- >> disinfectant getting injected yeah.

interesting -- >> then you all ended up getting it ofed course you got it after trump got it or -- >> there's no good time to get coronavirus let me be clear but at that moment i caught coronavirus right after november 3rd so we had just finished the campaign. >> loyal to a fault. >> nice ten day recess while all of the elections stuff is starting to go underway so back and then i'm in the middle of what the heck is going on? > let's talk about that. you know, what were the warning signs for you prejanuary 6th what was going on? you record a number of closed door meetings that you were closed out of -- but did you have an inkling there were -- there were these various streams of cue and insurrection leading up to explosion on january 6th? >> at the time --

and at first so at the time so now i'm talking about november, mid-november 2020 through mid-december 2023 at the time -- no. because at that point in my mind we were filing lawsuits and just for the record too, i think any candidate that thinks that the election results are close enough does have the right to file lawsuits where -- accepting it is accepting -- what theep lawsuits say and starting to defy rule of law it starts to get sickle. so at first, you know, i had -- also mr. trump before the election had talked to me sarcastically on air force one one day, but say leak if the democrats seal this election from us move down to florida with me? so i have no idea how far it was going to go -- december -- >> lots of indications i think

you helped to tip us off where trump was saying things like you're walking around and just i can't believe i lost to this guy.ev that there was a kind of -- personal recognition. get to a point and he would concede and be defiant about it and no idea that it would get to the poangtge point that it did d december 18th, 2020 first real turning act of time i look back nowow and i see how things lined up and -- over my mind. but december 18th an oval office meeting with general i'll say mike flynn mike flynn former overstock patrick and they were discussinge invoking marshal lw on insurrection act and that was days afterwards kept getting

more astounding. but again, you know, we were still dealing with a lot of issues that weren't just january 6th like still working to pass the mdaa some people were trying to work on the peaceful transfer so it wasn't like my days were consumed with januaryco 6th this but -- december 18th i think a turning point like things might -- things are kind of getting a little -- >> yeah. >> so your mom who is a hero of mine in this book anyway -- called you and said don't go to work on january 6th. >> yeah. >> so december -- well it was december 19th the tweet wasas sent out that it wil be wild on january 6th. and candidly i have some family members who are -- would associate themselves with more extreme extreme right wing

groups -- such as -- [inaudible conversations] it was early january my mom had a -- probably from speaking with my family ever had a in-depth conversation about it but she knew people were coming to d.c. for a rally and to me it was like awe rally we also had one n georgia on january 4th. but she was really nervous about the rally before hand up until the night before and morning of tried to convince me not to go to work but i had a job to do and i had to go. but -- >> yeah. to be faithful i did -- >> i don't know. >> one of the traumatic moments in your testimony before select committee when you described trump's reaction to this secret services insistence that people coming to his rally which was

kind of the warmup rally for the march. and you know, the big scene at the capitol. their determination that people have to d go through the mags tl us that story if you would from your perspective about what exactly happened because i think that was a moment that was lek electroif iing for me -- >> for that morning too because that was first moment i had that morning like holy crap what the hell is happening today? >> but you talk about the mags a lot in the election period leading up to it and how important -- >> an issue during the campaign and they go to the -- at the time. >> well that short for magtomiteter you're here for us -- but i appreciate -- they came many to tell us we were starting late because people were going through that and i heard cassidy say tell them to take down the fing

magtometer. [laughter] >> sorry -- and i had to testify and going to the capitol, and i said to my lawyers ' need a fing witness to take me back -- now -- no, so -- dark humor. very serious topic. especially today as we're approaching this next election cyclee which it's came like what -- so i got to the white house that morning, and driving through all of these crowds of trump supporters. like this is sort of weird. so i go into the deputy chief of staff's office who receives security updates, and he starts reading me e-mail that he had been receiving about what the secret service deemed as weapons in some of which are very clearly weapons. but things like flagpoles which

maybe not weapons but like that's -- that's a problem. secret service seen guns on people. so then when we get down to the ellipse that day you know this -- i had mention that the magtometr because they want rally space to be full for a picture. it wasn't what day because all of the people who were trying to goto through the mag had quote unquote secret service deem weapons so former president has said take the fing mags down take them away they can march the capitol from here. thankfully the men and women of secret service knew that regardless they were there for him or not that they have to stay off -- >> yeah. >> sorry -- [laughter] >> so -- take us just a little bit into

your mind about with what was tg place over the course of the day ---- you were presumably watching on tv what was taking place at the capitol. >> uh-huh. >> you saw the vice president flee you saw house and senate evacuate. the chambers door >> -- i have trouble deciphering because some were televised later. yeah. this day, i mean, it will never be i don't know like it makes me emotional to think about. because i felt so helpless that day. because i have such a connection with the institution of congress and i knew so many of you so many staffers that also like seeing -- i describe it in the testimony that it is best way i can think of to describe it now but sorts of like watching bad car accident or being in a bad car

accident where it starts to happen and there's nothing you can do to stop it. >> you tell officers being beaten, bloodied. >> things were on twitter, and being back at the white house, you know, it was sort of justing ellipse we knew that security barricades, bike racks were starting to be breached capitol police overrun by rioters and president still wanted to go. to the capitol -- we get back to the white house despite his resistance, and so i'm sitting at my desk sort of back and forth -- every minute of that day felt like a lifetime because it was sort of like waiting for next bad thing to happen. and once they actually got through -- i mean that's when i think it -- how real it was hit me although i sort of saw it going in that direction for a while but my

mind immediately went to -- i don't to fear monger but my mind went to these people don't know who these people and writers don't know who most of these members of congress are they don'tos know who journalist they're they think enemy of the people. at the time they would have had noav bounds and like if they had gotten i was fearful -- member of congress anybody, like they were chanting hang like pence and knew exactly who he was. >> and they know who speaker pelosi was and if maybe jim jordan would have been -- could have recognized jim jordan. but -- you know, if you had your pen on -- it was frightening being on inside knowing bits and pieces of what was going on at the capitol and there wasn't much that i could do to stop it. and it was very helpless feeling and like something that will always live with me.

yeah. so i don't to -- i'm sure you can follow-up. >> lawyers play a prominent role in your story here. you were in desperate search of a lawyer. you'd little or no money you don't come from a family with a lot of wealth and your savings were neither. and you know, you could have given everything you had for a days worth of legal service in washington. and so you're looking around for lawyer who would do it for -- pro bono or most -- >> on a payment plan. >> on a pay way plan. you did not want to end up being, you know, a bought and pay paid for witness under trump employee. and yet you ended up with a trump lawyer and that's a chapter that i recommend highly to people in law schools to read about what it is really like to need a lawyer. >> not lawyer to draw conclusions. but -- >> so -- you ended up with great lawyers here.

>> mr. bill jordan is here. congratulations. [applause] andnd bradley -- >> but that -- that's the favorable of the story that started out bad because youit did end up going with a lawyer who was clearly from trump world. i think i may be even went to school with this lawyer. pastino and -- you were told to limit your testimony to as few words as possible and if you couldn't remember every single detail to say you couldn't recall anything about that episode so you got instructions that were well border line that's a problem for them to deal with i guess. but how did you experience that as -- somebody being called to testify? >> it's back pedal slightly on that --

oh, in candidly after january 6th was outspoken in final days of the administration that we -- administration was completely at fault for what happened that day. my mind -- >> outspoken in the -- in the white house. it was not a secret how i -- my contempt for our -- for complicit and we had -- only reason that that day happened. but i -- >> youne know what -- i think we should clap for that. [applause] thank you forea this. it's -- it's sad that we sort of have to -- thank you. but washington you get a standing ovation for telling the truth. we shouldn't -- it is part of a big part was reason that i started to write a book we're in this crisis of accountability and -- we needac to elect leaders to office and hire people in to

public service who shouldn't need to be clapped for telling the truth. that's comingg with the job and swearing oath all of that being said i want to point this out to you because i don't to try to play revision of history i was still planning to move down from mar-a-lago with former president and at the time i felt that he needed good people surrounding him and felt i could be a sound voice. he kept me on payroll generosity is not his strong suit but i was on payroll for several months. i took up periods to decompress and how h things were unraveling on capitol hill. knowing full well that if i were called to testify under subpoena or voluntarily i wanted to be forth coming with the committee whatever committee had been formed. .... for an attorney

because i in my mind i had been in trump world which is an advantage and a disadvantage but i know that accepting something like an attorney from trump role at that juncture i had worked for at that point ten months to sort of separate for separating myself. appear loyal but a form for what to say all that, i did have a trump appointed counsel and i did receive counsel but i accept responsibility. when we look at the case of

several people who i know have trouble will incredible counsel. e and steering me back to the right side of history. yeah. and these lawyers from austin bird are 100% pro bono. i was 100% from so. and besides besides that sue, i mean, they offered me and gave me the sense of community and belonging and acceptance that i hadn't known for so long. and i felt like and so to this day, sometimes feel like i don't deserve. so it's again, it's i have been very fortunate to be able to tell my story from the other side. now, it's not without people,

you and liz cheney and the committee and also my attorneys that gave me that second chance. i just have a couple more questions for you, then i'm going to ask a few more from the audience because believe what? i think we might be running out of time. what was your experience like as a witness on that day? sometimes people describe to me being a witness, like watching themselves from the outside, like they feel a little bit dissociated by by it. they feel like it's really happening in someone else. but what was what was your experience of the day where i should say you acquitted yourself remarkably well and everybody across the board was totally convinced of your candor and your honesty and you i think you changed millions of people's minds, getting some.

thank you. as well. for starters, when i switched legal counsel, i was very clear clear, but i didn't want to just say i'm not at all. i was like, i will go back. i want to be completely forthcoming. the committee was very generous. they gave us my transcripts. we went through line by line. we corrected, we added, we added a lot of filler where i knew more than what i had led on to be. we even went through did spell spelling, spelling corrections very, very thorough. going back to my old transcripts, still didn't want to testify like i was like this is going to be useful for them. they'll be able to use this information to get other witnesses. when i learned that i would be a live witness, i was like, the fear of god was shocking me. no, no, no. don't want to give up my privacy and my identity. but i did come around to it slowly and even up until the last minute, bill had to physically push me out very gently, but pushed me out of the hold room.

i had made peace with it in the eye, recognized several elements. there was an importance to having somebody who had been there who was willing to speak truth to the acts that occurred that day, not just on january, but afterwards too. but it also was important for women and little girls to see that we're living in this society where unfortunately, men many years my senior are either avoiding subpoenas or were at the time pleading the fifth and just avoiding all forms of accountability. and, you know, not to get on a feminist angle here, but we need more women in government for that reason, too. and. but sitting at the witness table, i was very afraid, very cognizant that every move i made could and would be scrutinized.

but i also was had this overwhelming sense of peace, because i knew that i was doing the right thing and i was sitting in front of a die as of people who, in my opinion, are some of the most moral and ethical politicians, but human beings that are in washing ten in this era that start from this era. well, you're you're a great witness as i said. and i was thinking when you testified about mark twain, who said, if you always tell the truth, you never have anything to remember. you know. and some of the people we talked to always had to remember what they said. the last time and, you know, and so on. and you came in with the conviction, truth and i think that communicated really well. well, we need to talk a little bit about the future and your

future. cassidy hutchinson everybody wants to know what you're going to do, makes you so could you see yourself actually going into politics and? is there a political party that fits you anymore? so you're a chucky. too, as their first question, i right now do not see you say go into politics. i still believe that what i am doing right now is tangential to politics. it's actually integral. to politics. okay. i just wanted to making the separation between like i think been running to have a job on capitol hill right now. i think probably not the time for me. i need all of these people are asking, would you ever run for office yourself and go your stage, etc.? of course you. i would not say no because i had said no to a lot of in my past, including testifying live and look where i am.

you know, i i on this is honestly i don't have the ability to have that sort of hindsight right now. i think what i'm focused on right now is sharing the message in this book, which to me much greater than donald trump. you know, donald trump is an element to the book, but it's like, say, if donald trump fell off the face of the earth tomorrow, this, there still would be a problem that exists and it still is poisoning our political systems and i am a firm believer that we need a healthy republican party and a healthy democratic party. and i hope that there is a day that we could sit here and have a very well thought out debate as a republican. yeah, well, no, we're just gonna sit on jamie's jvc so i guess i. i think it's i sort of wish

sometimes i was jaded enough to say, i know i'm going to go move somewhere else and live a very but what we are facing right now is dangerous. and it's, in my opinion, one of the most grave threats are democracy has faced in my lifetime, perhaps in recent american history. and it doesn't just require for us and congress to pay attention to that. you know, i i hope with this book and with the platform that i have now, i can help open people's. and i hope that people will listen because it's it's important for more ways than just determining the outcome of the next presidential election. we're quite literally fighting for the future of our country and our republic. democracy on earth. yeah, correct. and it's it's not it's we are it's we're an experiment. we're not we're not getting nothing here. guarantee, you know. well, why is your book called enough. house reader right now? see this question?

it's a very subtle question. but there's a very nuanced there are many new answers. short answer with that. but i touched on it briefly earlier. i tried to write the book as i experi inside my life and how i got to this point. i try not to assign adjectives to people, places, things or events. tried to just tell things like how i experienced them and was mentally processing things at the time. there there's a the straightforward answer with enough is. i reached a point where enough was enough. it wasn't just enough was enough with my former trump world council, i reached a point where enough was enough of not being who i was, not fulfilling the public servant in myself, who i saw myself coming to dc and becoming, and i had had enough of this era of just living this

lie. and i couldn't i couldn't do it anymore. but, you know, there are more nuanced meanings and i would love for you to leave it up to the reader to interpret some of those, but, you know, i also think the one other thing on that, jamie, sorry to interject another question. you i also want people to know that their voice alone is enough and it doesn't require a mass to come out and say enough or say whatever you may say to stick up for yourself and i, i would love to give a shout out to liz cheney, who, you know, i have my incredible team of attorneys, but liz cheney was really the first person that. an extremely courageous individual who has the heart of a founding father and just her love for our country is something i think that we all should look towards as as well as congressman raskin. but it was it was liz who

reminded me that it's like i am enough and i am enough to not only speak truth to power, but to hopefully create change because we can't keep surviving as a nation. that's beautiful. some people want to know about the watergate figures you identify with and i know you made a very special friend in this process, mr. butterfield. yes, alex. so i the committee had very generously published of my transcripts where i had a little bit of a mental breakdown one evening and i was able to read in real time that i how far gone i was. and i had wanted to get back to the right side of history, and i was thinking about watergate, like there had to be somebody, you know, i had knew i knew who john dean was by thinking, like, how do you somebody else who had a similar role to me who didn't play this big consequential role

in the hearings, who wasn't a lawyer, wasn't a lawyer? yeah. so i started googling. those who had testified came across alex butterfield, who we had identical titles and he worked in the office of the chief of staff. he written a book. so i was like, perfect. he testified. he left. you didn't try to make a name for himself. now, my face is on the cover of a book. so he did work on this book with bob woodward. so i ordered several copies of it. you could see, i mean, this tabbed. i wish we could pass it around, although it's a little embarrassing but he really was the man and it seems now looking back it was should have seemed so obvious. but i didn't really have anybody in my i was in a very dark period of my life. and this period of almost complete isolation of people who i wasn't isolated from were my former friends in trump world, who i wasn't being my authentic self with. so when i read this book that

alex had worked on with bob woodward, he's alex became my friend in these pages and i felt i could relate to him and his journey, but also like who he was and he inspired me to then, you know, start to try to correct course and try to find a second chance. so you know, there are many people in this journey who i pay tribute to, but alex is one that he is just another incredible american. and but, you know, it's it's unfortunate that that 50 years after watergate, we're in a position where we're dealing with the results of another corrupt presidency. yeah. so. one person asking the question, which is how do you have the poise and maturity to handle your job and your testimony. because you had not left at that point. meaning trump world or during

the testimony? well during the testimony i was pretty much offered. you are but what weren't they still entertaining kind of the delusion that you might watch your words and you know i don't know. i thought i would leave that question. yeah, but i from my perspective, i think the moment that i had retained new counsel, they probably had a fairly good idea. not that i would testify like that. i was willing to be more forthcoming. yeah. i'd also backchannel for a third interview too, without my former attorney's knowledge at the time. right. with one of my good friends, alyssa farah griffin, who had been outspoken about jerry sex from january 7th forward. so it wasn't probably some big secret, although i think that they enticed what attorneys they probably expected to remain loyal it's interesting story about washington how much

government really does depend on bright young people who come in and really do the work and not to be you little, but you're i'm sure you have an incredible staff and maybe not as young as i was. yeah, but no younger members of congress and everybody, they rely on staffers. yeah. yeah. it's also important to be able to provide an environment to those staffers where they want to aspire to be politicians and to lead by example. but i mean, it's an incredible object lesson in how it was you in that case. it was the young staffers who were the ones who were insisting upon a loyalty to the truth and ethical principle. and we might never have known the truth were not for you in other people. in a similar situation, because the jaded ness, as you put it, in the conspiracy of lies was so fierce at the top levels and continues to this day. and there are still people who believe the big lie, although

it's been completely debunked, just in case you think that there are people who still believe the big and those minds will never change, you know, i think with me coming forward, that was something that i had to accept like there are and movable people but there are people who either might believe what he's saying or they might believe that donald trump is they might believe donald trump is better than joe biden. the not so with platform i have now like all i ask is for people to listen to and to listen to people like me because it's the people who are on the inside. and i think slowly we're seeing people start to break and speak the truth. but to listen to people like us who weren't never trumpers, who donald trump would not have considered what he calls rinos and that also see the grave dangers of what we endured at the and what continues to endure

today. i mean, look no further than truth social but in the way that some of these cases are playing out. i mean, the department of justice has brought the largest case in american history against the former of the united states. and that's a really sad place for us to be in. but i you know, i hope the people listen, because in this next year, it's all of our responsibilities to speak the truth and to speak to people in a way where they feel welcomed to. have those conversations. because i know in my position for a while i felt i did want to split away from trump rule. i saw how egregious and terrible the things that we had done were, but i also was sort of those with shame but scared to leave. because i felt like if i do leave, i'm going to be questioned and ridiculed and people are always going to question my intentions, which i think to a degree is fine and i welcome that.

but we can't shame people out of coming forward. that's right. that's right. well, that's a beautiful way for us to end this. you know, i want to thank you for your moral courage in speaking so candidly and openly about your entire life and your experience and your family and your work and your education and i want to thank you for your love of our beautiful country. and thank you for your patriotism cassidy. and i want to thank you for your willingness to keep growing and keep learning and remember, there's always a home for you in the democratic car. now we're going to hear. you. thank you. politics in droves. thank you, gw. thank you for asking me everything. check out her book and mr. ross coen has another ♪♪ looks like this where americans can see democracy at work were

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