and that cuisine is a more varied today than anytime in the past. on the other hand we have not changed that much. her passion for food, our attention to what food means to the cultural significance of having fancy food on the table. being able to take people out to nice restaurants it's a way to impress people we have not changed all that much. two contradictory things. stu went to max miller is the author of this book tasting history, explore the past through 4000 years of recipes. we appreciat you being a book tv. >> thank you so much for having me. next is a book tv in depth the program pulitzer prize winning author and biographer stacy schiff. her books include a great improvisation and most recently

the revolutionary biography of founding fathers samuel adams record the masterminds by the boston tea party and a leader of the american revolution. >> author stacy schiff besides the effective written about them what did ben franklin, the which is of salem, cleopas and sam adams have in common? >> i guess off the top of my head they are people or moments that change our world. each of them in some way leaves the world different to the one they which they were bored at which they came. that's what i'm always looking for in a subject's is some subject with residents for me on a personal level because biography in particular is a somewhat of a marriage. if you like there's a shift in time a shift in space and cleopas' the hellenistic world comes crashing down with her death in the roman empire begins at the huge moment in history.

the salem witch trials are with us in various ways forever for better or worse as it talked, as a vaccine is a sense of here's where you do not want to go here's what you do not want that to do. there's an anti- message in a way. with each of these i can make it to world changing moment i come to each of them with a set of questions the starch upsetss me. those w questions write themsels into the book in some b ways but not necessarily in a way the reader will ever really noticed. but onceic i'm thinking about something this is with getting there some way this is the way cleopas was born large data series of articles i'd written about women in power by art womenn empower such a toxic and difficult combination? i kept thinking cleopas is a perfect example but how you write the life of cleopas when you have the material? there is sometimes a driving

question or driving set of obsessions and they kind of get buried. >> what things you write and cleopas as she was unaware she lived in the hellenistic age for. >> the person who would be her undoing would be named a gustus. it's interesting that's a beauty to me of reading history. for 30400 or 800 pages the authors going to pretend this is not preordained in some way and in a good way to suspend his beliefs and get on. >> what was the hellenistic age? >> it's a greek age in which the greeks to longer participate. greek culture which has survived when greece was the world power and cleopas state largely become an alexandrian specialty alexandra hasom become pre-much the capitol of what remains of

free culture. it's writing about cleopas it's the end of the age which is basically the death of alexander the great with cleopas as alexandria is immensely written about in the ancient world. though we have next to no trace of this. every traveler who went to alexandria said in short i cannot describe the city. it is impossible to describe and then goes on for 30 pages describing its the city of such sophistication and marvel if you want in the ancient world went to a dog trainer or a tutor or a library or a doctor or a craftsman you went to alexandria it's the city of such sophistication and opulence because i want to read a quote from cleopas in the absence of facts, myths that rushes in a kudzu of history. the holes in the record present one hazard which we have constructed around another. a commanding woman versed in

politics,ipmacy and government flew into nine languages silver tongued and charismatic cleopas nonethesseems a joint catn of roman propagandists and hollywood directors. her history was written by her enemies in the fictions have only proliferated. >> those are just a few of the problems with writing about cleopas. it's an interesting case because women's history for starters is more difficult in my mind than writing about a mail figure obviously their lives were not well documented for much of history. they often do not keep their papers, their papers get lost. but in cleopas' case i think almost uniquely she needs to be a larger-than-life figure in many ways to justify the victory that he will went over her.

but to magnify his triumph he has have magnified cleopas' plow power. plaut power. she becomes an oversize figure. she's demeaned forever possible reason but she's also this larger-than-life character. so, from the start by the time the roman searcher write about her they emphasize her shrewdness, her sexuality, what an incredibly crafty woman she was the work short while some port mark antony. there may can do something of a cartoon character with this larger-than-life figure. >> host: was she even egyptian? >> alas she was a doña in greek. it is an interesting family history because she had families that believed in sibling marriage we know she's macedonian greek but pretty much from every angle these were siblings who married it's possible a persian princess snuck in there somewhere but now

she's macedonian greek. we know relatively little of what she looked like except for what is on her coin portrait. the two great conceptions about her she is egyptian and she look looked like elizabeth taylor are both erroneous. she looks largely like her father and for coin portraits hs are to be believed. by no means a beauty which is what the ancients tells us she is by no means beautifully but seductive as a person. sunken cheeks, hooked nose, deep set eyes looked very much like her father. and we think barely small but other than that all bets are off as to what she might have looked like. stu when she was cleopas of the seventh? what's the number gets a little messed up. for the others? >> dissent from a rancorous

queen. one of the interesting things writing about cleopas' time is women wereof powerful not just n egypt, not just in the dynasty from where she dissents but the world they are quite a few female sovereigns who yields a great deal of power it bears reminding ourselves the height of cleopas' power sheet reigns over a tremendous swath of territory through egypt, up the coast of modern-day israel to the south of turkey. she reigns over a tremendous territory and by no means the first female to have had that kind of power. previous women had held power and has other sovereigns in the ancient world where women's rights were different then they werete elsewhere in the mediterranean world. >> was she raised too be the queen of england i'm sorry the queen off egypt? >> ensure queen of england would have been interesting.

seemed to be immensely well educated. the libraryhe of alexandria spls quite literally in her backyard. we know nothing of her childhood we know a great deal better education. her education interestingly would've been the same education mark antony, julius caesar, and the wellborn member of the mediterranean world would have enjoyed at that moment. she don't what she would have it read. we would have known how she learned to read which text to read, what comedy she read, how she learned how to speak. let seems as if every child in the dynasty was raised to rule if only because it was a very, how should the sick, blood thirsty family and siblings often eliminated each other and their gain to the hold on power. close immensely important everybody be able to rain because you never know to whom powers going to ascend.

cleopas distinguishes yourself by being the only sibling to survive it. >> she eliminated her 13-year-old brother, husband who was emperor herb because her clr at one point goes to rome. it's already an interesting dynamic between at the point in cleopas' morbid father goes away and her elder sister usurps the throat when he returns he illuminates. cleopas lit up in a civil worth one of her brothers and in the course of that work seems to die. the other brother and later mark antony will murder her sister. >> was she descended from alexander the great? >> no. but the perception is alexander

the great very enterprising friend and general had returned his body to alexandria the city alexandria founded. it's like a mail order coat of arms. it was a trumped up family pedigree that served and worshiped alexander the great. and roman eyes spoke of alexander the great. so is a very tenuous connection because of the relationship. >> was she a deity or did she have a belief system? quick it's one of the many unanswerable questions here. she was thought to be a deity by her people. she comports herself as a god of isis. sacrifices are made to her.

did she think of herself as a deity? that's an impossible question to answer. buto certainly in the eyes of hr people of her who she rules with immense finesse she is thought to be a benevolent supreme deity. >> she lived before christ was evenn born. once you decide you want to write about cleopas ready start the research? what about about cleopas before i worked on benjamin franklin and i could not figure out how to write a book were essentially one word at most in cleopas' hand we have no documents. all of our sources are basically roman men unexposed are quite hostile to cleopas. i kept thinking it was a great subject but how do you possibly

get your mind around it? how do you reconstruct the life? it's avidly very biased. one day we gone back on the porch and of mark antony cleopas was hijacked. suddenly he's writing about cleopas. there is a scene of mark antony and cleopas out fishing one day. in which mark antony who is not faring well at fishing it's one of his men to dive under the water to hook a fish. cleopas captures hemp and challenges them to a fishing contest the next day where she essentially pulls a prank on him and informs him he shouldn't be fishing he should go and accomplish kingdoms it's a little like telling your husband loading the dishwasher what he doing fishing with me when you have other things you should be doing. we haveco thete dialogue from tt

moment. for 76 years this is already hearsay. he set the scene could you not construct a life of cleopas which have come down to us some validity aren't real sense of scenery. once i started researching i realize there's a lot more there than i had realized. one could construct a full life. when he kept an eye on who they were what side are they on? by reducing what they were saying? so that leader would always note this is purportedly the case but it may not have been the case may been something someone was writing the hated women or egypt

for the roman emperor. >> emperor. >> asked to julius caesar, act iii octavian and mark antony because it's pretty good as lives go it falls into action my perspective i was a that would not have been the way she would've perceived it. it is astonishing two decades long hold on power limits on the rise, egypt as it remains for thousands of years not independent power. she still thanks there is a way to maintain the integrity. >> home describe the relationship between ronan and egypt? quick that's an interesting one rome is the richer of the two countries. egypt does not believe in buying power does not believe in

conquests. all of these sovereigns look at their marching towards us about areabout to devour's, one to? had essentially tried to buy off the romans. if egypt is us the breadbasket of the mediterranean sole realm is very reliant on egypt for survival. as is looking at egypt as the same time to cleopas' story. everything is very sensuous there in the romans don't trust. already being looked at a stance. at the same time like thatea wih tremendous envy. the cover of cleopas, who did the art and why did you choose

that? i'm so glad you asked. when you write something about cleopas ready to address this question of the only images we have which are authentic are the coin portraits. it might literal minded way that's only job in which we could rely. fromwe the coin portraits wheatw shoot both roles into herto hai. we have those styles and a great number of coins. this was a genius idea of the artistic director who is half danish and half dominican not macedonian greek att all. you see it on the coin progresses the photograph? what does the photograph that looks like a painting.

the earring i will tell you and your viewers is don't they glue gun on the kitchen table matches the earring she is wearing in the coin portraits. >> to spend quite a bit of time in cleopas talking about the city. undescribable then you describe it. why did it rise to such prominence? >> exits the wealthiest city. it was a city in which you are likely to meet people from all over the world. you can meet traders there if you won anything in the world went to alexandria it was a little bit of a new york or a paris on the 20th terms of the day. you need to make clear this was the cosmopolitan center the center of learning. there is a reason why it was a melting pot of thehe city. it is a city without arrival.

great magic of automatic doors and huge avenues with marvelous amounts of onyx and precious metals. gleams like no other. parks founded by alexander the great. on the greatness was because of him or because of cleopas? >> the greatness was after the age about that of the great. the labor had been built there. cleopas' four barriers had put craftsmanship and wording this collection of the labor of alexander was such of how we do not know if this is true obviously, all of the books of the ancient world which is possible at the time so it may have actually been true. they'd built this library up they put tremendous premium on learning. in some of things cleopas would have known and one could have learned in alexandria with things, she knew the value of pi

she knew leah longitude and longitude she knew for century onset really becomes the work of the previous colonies they're having it raise the library progresses labor success? >> it is a lebron alexander today but it is a new library we dodo not know definitively what happened to the ancient lever oy of alexandria may have been bert during the alexandria war when n julius caesar was there. what remained of it seems to have fall into the ocean during an j earthquake. there is now a new library their progress in the map you have in the book of alexandria there appear to be three temples of isis, who was isis what was her reputation? >> the supreme goddess and egypt. she is a goddess who combines basically all of the great

goddesses with a purpose, love, she's the goddess of families she is the goddess of maternal love. she sets the earth in motion she has tremendous power and we think the reason why women were so well respected you have a female deity who is the ruling deity. we have many accounts of isis temples inou rome having been destroyed because understood to be somewhat b dangerous. but in egypt she reigned supreme in cleopas associates yourself with isis, dresses like isis is the worship of the manifestation of isis. >> she has one child from julius caesar and shehi has twins and r child with mark antony. she has a remarkable ability to get pregnant by the right people and processes the right time. >> they rise to prominence?

>> they would have, had she survived. it becomes a problem to do with her son with julius caesar this is one to caesar too many at this point he is a teenager she tries to send him off to safety she dispatches him as quickly as you can from alexandria. he is ultimately brought back and killed. the other three children are taken back to rome by octavia and raised by his sister and her household. they are displayed in the triumph in rome we lose sight of the two sons at that moment we never hear from them again but the daughter is married off to the king she holds court for a number of years. very much as her mother had done

weight lose sight of her pretty much at that point there is a grandson who oddly enough goes back to rome and is marked murdered. and that's the end of cleopas' children as far as we know. >> died at 39. is it true question. >> it's always good and biographical sum who lives -fest ooand dies young recruits a lot accomplished in 39 years. when she bitten by an asp? >> it understand why we have ended up with it doesn't really hold up. i think we've ended up with her for several reasons one of which is the asp is the symbol of ypegypt so it makes a lot of see secondly by the way it looks great in a painting. women and snakes go back a long way it's an association we like to emphasize. also when she dies octavia it rushes to the scene and finds herer dead which is not reportey what he wants, will call in some

libyan magicians, libyan doctors who were known to be able to save people who had died of snake venom and resuscitate people of them bitten by snakes is what i need to say. and because they rush to the scene the implication most of been that it was a snake bite but if you go back and read the first people who write about cleopas' death know it meant as a snake. some outright say we do not know how she died. the kind of a death she has which is a narcotic rather than a convulsive death would indicate she was not bitten by a snake i did a lot of research at the time i didn't do it with my own home but it would've been a much more dramatic death she and her two ladies in waiting all die at the same time which would have been a very difficult task to ask of the snake. it's certain pretty certain it was poison she and she had a

doctor on hand who could have assisted her with that. >> self-inflicted? look self-inflicted. >> what is her legacy? >> there are a lot of halloween costumes out the print that it's an interesting question what is her legacy? we look to her still as a siren, as a symbol ofsi sexuality and what we lose if that's a fact to you have immensely capable cleared by shrewd woman who ruled with the extraordinary expansive territory and held off the romans very craftily for two decades. in the way she could be a poster woman for empowerment but i think she would come down press for reasons i discuss in the book as a siren. >> stacy, how much time did you spend in the alexandria library on your research? >> i spent probably an hour in the alexandria library and none of it onan research they were vy fewh. books and it is still new and i went to visit it.

i spent a lot of time in the part of the world. what's interesting is how little of cleopas' left. the romans did everything they could to annihilate every trace of her. so common in order to see her the best place is either in the desert where she camped at the beginning of the book and she is at war with her brother she's gonene off to essentially with r troops to plan how she's going to retake alexandria. the remains of that fortress the ruins of that fortress include and you can get a sense of her world. certain temples, ruins a certain temples otherwise is very little of her left. everything is in the wrong place in the nile is in the wrong place the coast of egypt has changed. the ankles of the moon andac sun are probably all you have to go on. the color of alexander remains the same. so to answer your question i

spent a lot of time in your public library where you can reach her way through the works of the ancients who were all of them, so astonishing so wide-eyed at the alexander of the ancient world. spill it what is your advice to someone who watch the 1960s a movie cleopas with elizabeth taylor and her husband? >> get a double popcorn is my advice. there is a brilliant david camp article about the making of that movieng which i would recommend reading maybe after you seen the movie to see was gone into the making of it it's almost as an extraordinary story as is the movie itself for. >> and 40 bc until 1692 new england i want to read a quote from a 2015 book the which is. america's tiny reign of terror salem represents one of the rare moments in our enlightened past when the candles are knocked out and everyone seems to be groping about in the dark. a place for all good stories

begin. easy to caricature it is the only tragedy that has acquired its own annual unrelated holiday. it is more difficult to comprehend. whatat happened? >> which would you like me too start with? >> i think hallowing should be a theme today. what happened is in early 1962 in january two little girls 19 and 111 in the minister's house, they get to exhibit signs they thrive, grimace, bark, yelp, ,shutter are also alternately paralyzed and can't speak and then speaking in what seems to be nonsensical terms. throwing themselves into fireplaces and find out what wells. no one can quite figure out what these symptoms are really meant ato convey.

medicine was primitive even though epilepsy these were not epilepticy seasons no one jumps to conclusions but there were an outbreak of witchcraft which hadbeen very well described by w england minister and a best-selling book those symptoms and these symptoms were identical. though fairly soon thereafter know it rushes to an immediate diagnosis but several weeks after this girls begins to exhibit these signs it actually spreads other household a diagnosis of witchcraft is made and this is in the house of a is particularly difficult for people to comprehend in the house of a minister of the girls would have felt more on display is a minister's daughter and niece. and once a diagnosis of witchcraft is suggested and obviously a which needs to be found. somehow in the subsequent weeks fingers are pointed in three women are named as mental

suspects this january 1992. those quickly this woman are deposed. two of them say they have no idea there and a sense this is not of their doing they are the three t most likely suspects one is a local woman who's known for coming by people's houses for. >> of sarah good? et cetera good exactly. and it being quite unpleasant with them if she did not if they do not give her what she wanted. sort of eight vagrants turned up people's house issues and feared they are going to burn down her barn. she's ty married but is on lousy terms with her husband the two of them are known to fight with each other. she is a smallit child with her aunt recently to the girls of the parsonage. the second was sarah osborne who is very litigious woman. who had been disputing a will for someho time for that also me herself somewhat unwelcome in

the community. and the third and we do not have an explanation why the third one is the indian in the paris household in the minister's household who would have known these girls intimately would have played with these girls and probably slept in the same room as these girls and she's the third person named as a potential suspect. when sarah osborne and sarahwh good deny all intimacy with witchcraft, it will offer extern extraordinary immensely colorful confessions. their courses soon as someone has cap confessed to witchcraft the trial is set in place and singers begin to point left and >> pickwick companies salem witch trials? >> the trails go through. the actual trials begin in june d ended in october. peop a deposed throughout

that time in various places. there a fr of the trial. the thing moved very, very quickly once he trials begin. for the following reason, fairly early on the entire the afflictions of theirls are sufferin spread and the accusations spread. fairly early on it is discovered if youonfess to witchcraft you go to prison but you do not hang up your particularly multiply. one of things you do is you confess was perhaps the real culprit to which the authorities are looking. at this point the entire infection, delusion, whatever you want to call it begins to spread and by the time it's over has spread to. so we called the salem witch trial it is countywide. >> 14 women and five men two

dogs, all executed. >> read that line around aloud they say all after the dog. that's right the order people are tried and which of the accused are hang the first person tried she was a person who hasas the longest criminal record. take' prosecutor's dream she's got years of infractions she lied to authorities it's bridget bishop she's been in trouble before was the obvious place with which to start the prosecution. once the men who are sometimes more unusual in the sense of them are very powerful men. at one point the richest man in salem town is accused. it's often men who are constables had told people therefore they may not have wanted to heard. and one came's a man expresses skepticism about the trout which trial whichmakes sense because t

point to express skepticism was essentially to invite an accusation. the most prominent case is a minister it's one ofr the previous ministers from salem village whote was a difficult mn he left on difficult terms a few years earlier had been an abusive husband had failed to ingratiate himself with salem village by whom he is accused and he will become the mastermind of that entire delusion. it starts out at epidemic of witchcraft ends by the end of a summer of a conspiracy of a plot to overthrowco america this x salem minister is understood to be a biological mastermind behind the entire plot frequents what happened to her two original girls abigail williams and betty paris? >> is interesting.

betty is shipped off to live in a different town and we will essentially hear nothing of her again.f abigail will be involved with the girls to go toh court their a bunchon do spread to of teenage girls. our prepubescent girls altogether who will be in the court their kind of exhibit a for the prosecution. as they thrive and grimace and bleed in the courtroom hence very hard to deny there must be witchcraft at work there's no other explanation for the symptoms the girls are displaying. to this course of girls who are screaming and clearly suffering from something very vile and it seems to make the case that much easier to prosecute burgers or old friend cotton mather has a role. >> he o does. spent a lot of time with cotton. it is the author of the book which i referred to earlier the best-selling book on the earlier

witchcraft prosecution. i should preface by saying that to a man everyone in 1592 salem as far as a we know didn't belie it witchcraft. we should remember this is not been knighted people name was superstition this is part and parcel of the religion to believe in god was to blame into the devil to believe in the devil was to believe in witchcraft as well. and some of this finger-pointing, much of it was beingin done out of a sense of piety. he felt you were doing you are good for the community by helping it to eradicate this terrible plague of witchcraft. afif you had a screaming child n your household or in the courtroom you would have been fairly certain you are looking at the manifestation of evil which relate help to identify.

written the earlier book which helped people to both understand what the symptoms were and what witchcraft look like until 1692 there had been like 100 accusations of witchcraft very few people were prosecuted the prosecution rate was maybe a quarter.te that year it known who walked into that courtroom will be wdeclared innocent. it's a very different parameter and that's largely the work of cotton mather he's a young man us is it shining light of the heat comes from illustrious father he writes a book every time he breathes he's immensely prolific. he is the person to whom the authorities will regularly turn for help and figure out how to prosecute this. the men on them court are sometime mystified by proper procedures and nay repeatedly turned to cotton mather to ask

him to help them figure out both with the proper diagnostics are here and what has been done in the past. it is interesting if you look at what cotton mather responds to, he is very clear in his thinking. but also it never writes the statement that doesn't have nevertheless in it. on one hand this on the other hand that. he's very invested in the prosecution for his own reasons. and i guess i say that because at the end of the epidemic after everyone has realized this has gone too far. somehow justice has not been served cotton will still privately be writing he has no regrets about what happened to the 14 women, five men and two dogs because god has gotten disciples is filled the pew. he sees this as an embrace of religion and some weight. >> describe salem in 1692 today

it's basically a suburb of boston is in it? what was it like in 1692? >> or to salem's a 1692. the village which is almost on the front tier in which the witchcraft breaks out were samuel parris is the minister it's a tiny little town it's very much an outpost and builds up on a wilderness and these are years obviously there been very frequent wars against native americans and which people felt very vulnerable and at a time when the colony itself politically vulnerable. age, abos away -- salem town, i'm sorry, is a much more sophisticated, larger town and that is where the trials themselves took place. this is a town that has jurisdiction over salem village and that is an unusual relationship. the farmers in salem village are

not particulate pleased they have two give access to the ones in salem town because they are more vulnerable, salem town is a much should be protecting that. >> host: here are some of the things i wrote down and reading this book, and you tell me which apply, if any. we are talking about the witches. class, sex, teen angst, religion, peer pressure, conspiracy theory. >> i think you pretty much covered it. yes. it's he and early manifestation of thinking but i think we all have a conspiracy in which we believe. everyone has a conspiracy whether he or she wants to admit it or not. i do think the politics plays a huge role when you have an inexplicable event no one knows how to add adjudicate or

alleviate the great mystery for me other than aside from what is ailing the children is why the prosecution is so intent and robust and 0% conviction rate which has never happened before. political unrest and it actually sent a royal governor several years earlier to find out what its penalty was going to be. there was anxiety around that and a new administration to which they needed to prove that they were a law and order place. this was a community in which

justice served. >> host: good afternoon and welcome to booktv. this is our in depth program. we invite one author to talk about his or her body of work. we have been talking with author stacy schiff. we've made it through two of her books and hope to make it through a couple more and want to get your involvement as well. she's written six books beginning in 1994. the biography about the little princess and then portrait of a marriage and that is about vladimir, his wife, integrate improvisation the birth of america came out in 2005. cleopatra we've discussed came out in 2010. theth witches in 2015 and her mt

recent book the revolutionary samuel adams, which we will get into in just a minute but we want to let you know how you can participate as well. a phone number (202)748-8200 if you are in the east and central time zones. 748-8201 for those in the mountain at pacific time zones, and you can also send a text message-8 as well. (202)748-8903 is that number for text messages only. please include your first name and a city if you would. we will also scroll through the social media sites so you can make a comment on twitter and facebook as well. just remember that booktv is the handle. we will begin taking those in just a minute. so before we leave, how does salem celebrate or acknowledge their history today.

>> what happens after the trials is almost universal. so many books for the ministry is purged. people's correspondences, those nine months just disappear. in the early 18th century when the some of the survivors were offered restitution for family members they have lost. they literally talk about no one wants to mention that word witchcraft, but there is such regret and shame and tenderness around what has happened that nobody would talk about it. when arthur miller goes back, he finds the people were unwilling

to talk about it and it's an unmentionable thing. and then in a stunning turn of events bewitched was filmed in salem. >> host: did that make a difference? >> guest: that made a difference. they needed a place to film and someone had a great idea let's do it in salem. suddenly there was a full-scale embrace in the way that contorted in the 17th century which was a conflict of religion and the way they construct them today which is the prestigious construct and salem now is halloween central and a place that celebrates the magic and all of its sort of together

which isn't quite as solemn. >> given the fact of there was a scrub of this nine months was it hard to do the research? >> i did the research for the book because we didn't have the core record we had the definitions. we had what people said you construct a little bit but we don't have the court papers. the court papers may have been very perfunctory because it is a done deal. everybody knew what was going to happen d. you have very little in terms of personal diaries. they ce to terms very tenderly with what happened that here and it's the only member who will

apologize for his role. >> host: so what is your conclusion? >> what seems to ale the girls does conform a lot of descriptions of what they look like in the middle and it conforms perfectly to 19th century drawings of the hysteria and conversion disorder andrd there've been other instances of that breaking out usually in similar cases in isolated communities among adolescent girls living together with a sort of contagious effect so that does seem to hold up from the many printed descriptions we have of the girls and their antics and what we now know today know as the disorder.

as to what the robust prosecution, as i think there was a great deal to do encouraging it certainly when the court looks to him he very ksrarely says anything other thn of the constitution would be in order to qualify that and i do think that this is an attempt to prove it to solve as a place that understood them all and could add adjudicate and at the head of the roof witchcraft is able to do that because the busy agile player in the administrations and he wanted to prove that he was able to prove the authority. >> it ended very quickly. what happened to end the witchcraft? >> in the course of the full

they have a new governor and he is not a member of the religious authority that have banded together. it's a little bit more not skeptical but he doesn't buy into this whole apparatus. at this point they have gotten so far field that they begin to touch people in power so now it is a moment of could there possibly be this many in the colony. they reached out to the ministers who were not themselves puritan. he wanted another opinion. those ministers essentially sent

a very different answer in his colleagues but the number of things coming together at that point there were a couple of people who it could have been a very delicate thing to have done. one of those was a young 35-year-old harvard educated anglican and he was wealthy enough and separate enough which he did anonymously. there was a long convincing track about how these girls were seeing things. that's not seeing things. it'stu imagination and this was going to continue to prosecute as it was doing and would put a permanent stain on new england.

>> were the trials known contemporaneously?ac >> known by word-of-mouth and certainly people were willing in other communities because accusations had spread to those communities but there is no news account about an interesting d.part of that year, one of the things that attracted me to the story is how much oral culture and internet culture had in common and how quickly the news and accusations could be both spread and decimated. some of the people they'd never met so when an accusation comes to their doorstep because they've nevere met these girls. how could they possibly be accusedrg by then? >> host: true or false, ben franklin was not in the colonies during the entirety of the revolutionary war?

>> guest: true. that is true. in december of 1776, so a little piece but he doesn't return until 85. and four of those years he's based in paris. >> when congress is declared independent and wants to declare independence but what it really needs to dodo is find a foreign power to help it and so the questions are intricately tied together. find a suitor first or declare independence first and ultimately the inclusion seems to have been would you like to help us and when you're interested in undermining the british your first call so benjamin franklin is dispatched

to paris as the representative to essentially do something about the fact that they've declared independence without the meaning of achieving that because they have no men, no material, no ammunition and no money and it is his job to secure. it is partly because he spent a lot of time in europe already and understood to be a thing of a celebrity but also to speak french which allows he doesn't entirely do. >> not in my view. someone would have had to have underwritten it. and i should say france had been watching the colonies very closely. and had anticipated that there would be a day when they would

have these opportunities to essentially annihilate and undermine the positions in north america. a kind of colonial collision. almost as quickly. >> host: marie antoinetterained. >> a. >> guest: so it was franklin's job. franklin arrived not immediately because he's on a covert mission that can't be recognized. when there's a treaty of alliance he finally is understood to be the ambassador and minister and it is his obligation to go to court weekly in fact.

it was a long carriage ride in those days and a lot of standing around. having researched that i did realize as franklin went to court every week and stood around and all of the other foreign ambassadors who were utterly transfixed by whatever that was going on would have written accounts back on their own accord to allow the material found in portuguese archives. what about the english and is there? >> guest: he's a man of immense dexterity and why

franklin has arrived to paris. doing everything they can to undermine the records covertly andev a few who were very interested behind the scenes and trying very hard to reveal everything they are doing and that there are these conniving americans inin their midst and nothere was no gambling in the casino or things being shipped to america i don't know what you could possibly be thinking. >> host: the father of america. >> guest: it is wonderful and i can'tf remember which ambassador reported on this it's an astonishing moment.

it's an unthinkable thing. and it's never happened before. they go to court for the official recognition. as he is leaving but if all monarchs ruled it is a kind of treasonous thing this is reporteds by one of the foreign ambassadors. >> host: thank you you've been patient. we have not touched yet samuel adams for most recent. cornelius alexandria you are on.

i apologize, can you start again i forgot to punch the button. >> caller: [laughter] you want to silence me. anyway, god bless both of you all and thank you so much for writing.r i am here inhe louisiana and wht i want to ask you is if you had the chance to write about this new movie -- >> host: was at the viola davis that you're talking about? he's gone. >> guest: i haven't had a chance to buy love all questions. that is t a great idea. i'm looking for a new subject. >> host: you spend about five or seven years between your

books. why? >> guest: i don't seem to be able to do it as quickly. i'm usually researching for a good three years and i have a lot of biographer friends that do this and what i consider to be a more efficient way. i can't seem to do that because i don't know the confines of the material or the story. i don't know where i'm going to go until i immerse myself in the material. you are eager to get to your death and once you start writing you generally hit a platform and failed to research and have to go back to the archives. it takes about a year or so to write. >> host: rich from orange california texts in can you talk a little bit about your research techniques and how they may have changed over 30 years of

writing? you refer to, quote, volumes that i regularly pulled from the shelf is your research still note card? >> guest: thanks for revealing me as the dinosaur that i am. no notecards i'm happy to report. obviously archives on the computer, but i am very old-school in the sense that when i read an article i think i'm going to be going back to and it's printed out and on the margins it usually winds up with something that is going to simmer into the book. i guess the short answer is the computer files when i go into

the files with the samuel adams book there would have been a personal file, a family file, a file on the land bank for the boston tea party and some of those are subdivided depending how large the category is and i write on a legal pad with a pencil for the very simple and i'm very superstitious like all writers but i am a fast typist. i typed more quickly than i think and we all go on at a greater length. when you are writing, my thoughts are more distilled when i write with precision. it doesn't mean i write well but it's arduous to drag the pencil across the piece of paper. i do still write on a legal pad

for the first draft and then i enter it into the computer and that is an editing process in and of itself then the subsequent drafts are printed out from there. >> you seem to have fun writing and fun in your sentence structure. it's such a bad word to use but that's how it struck me. >> that is the important part and i do think that comes to me anyway on the page and i'm sure if i were younger it would be on screen. the collision, the ideas coming together happen as i sit down to write. when you sit down in the morning you don't know what's in store. you don't know what is happening there and thatd

is the thrill for the reader. >> host: buddy, savannah, georgia. thanks for holding. you are on with author stacy schiff. >> caller: i enjoyed your program this morning. i was curious about alexander hamilton, either one and -- >> host: y alexander hamilton, that is quite a combination. >> caller: he was really interesting. he really was. it's like a 700 page book and it was absolutely great. something's wrong with of the united states. i am telling you.

i couldn't agree more about every school in america. it's a spellbinding 700 pages and because of it i would never ride in alexander hamilton because it is superb and unlikely to be rivaled. a really interesting idea i've had trouble getting my mind writing about someone where i don't speak the language. i did write a book but i do not speak russian.. i had a translator for that book and i was lucky in that book that begins in russia and makes its way across europe and is a tripartite european chapter and american, chapter and is very often french in the correspondence. i have been weary of doing a

book and a native language that i would be willing to learn and that is a great topic of that. >> host: speaking of why did you write about vera rather than of a lot of more? >> i had two biographers both of whom had made clear she was utterly central to the story and they both included inn their bok a variation on the line there was a hole in the center of the book and there always will be. and that just doesn't seem right. it was a very close marriage i knew relatively little a her from ttart i knew all but one of the books was dedicated to her.. when you look at a dedication page there's a story behind every dedication page and you dedicate which is like a nervous tick but it's rather

astonishing. the story was unusual. i knew she carried a gun in her purse and when he taught at cornell in the 1950s which is also rather strange. this is what, i mean, about the private questions embedded in the book. i was newly married myself at the time. it was my second book. i wanted a family, something structurally more intricate or ambitious than my first book had been and this was the perfect vehicle, not only central to the story,ut i thought if you couldth a him through the marriage and who had made it a work of art you could see his work in a different way. >> host: and you won the pulitzer for biography.

>> guest: i did. >> host: and when lolita came out, what was the reaction? >> guest: the relationship is different. at one point actually frustrated by the inability to make the book work to bring the manuscript in the backyard and its vera who comes in and saves it from the flame, utterly instrumental in a number of ways. she takes it in a passage to try to find a publisher for it. so she's always from the beginning the greatest defender.

it would become a runaway bestseller that would allow them to completely reinvent themselves again and retire from teaching r at cornell and movedo switzerland. finally after all these years puts him on the map as a real genius that no one had ever before deployed. >> host: what was the spark about that book? is that the subject matter where the writing? >> guest: this is 1950s america. what's really interesting is today it's been attacked by the right and the leftists of its controversial no matter how you look at it. the bookcl includes scenes in a

nonconsenting 12-year-old girl that are extremely sexual and colorful to say the least. it's a novel about an obsession and passion. they would publish it and the two of them fight it out on the bestseller list because he thought it was a terrible book. >> host: market in arizona. you're on with author stacy schiff. >> caller: you seem very knowledgeable and make a bit of

good points. very interesting. i wanted to ask you about witchcraftft and what the topic was when is first tuned in. i want to ask you whether in writingg the book, you are a historian, but isn't wicca like a religion that many people follow? >> i spent a lot of time in salem but i didn't spend a lot of time attaching the story to the events of the 17th century because i was immersing myself in the theology at the time and when you go back and look at it it's interesting how specific it

is. an outgrowth. all over the world in the middle ages and by the time we get to 1692 the countries are no longer persecuting women absent which is or have any kind of trials. they've been outlawed in many countries. it's any kind of skeptical literature so it's still holding the disbelief in witchcraft and i should say the construct in a compass of the devil who did the devils work which is why animals play such a big role in the story and the literature understood only two cried from her left i 32 years at a time

and you could tell if someone were a witch. there were very obvious ways. putting a witch and the water is a way you could tell if someone was a witch. there is also a codification through the ages and they had all of that literature under its spell so it is a useful moment to have a bunch of men very well versed in this phenomenon in a funny way ofei either reading. it helps us to understand what the court was thinking and what they thought they were seeing when they looked at these. >> host: stacy schiff, before we get too far from matt in savannah talking about alexander hamilton, what was the relationshipat if any between samuel adams and franklin, alexander hamilton?

>> guest: it is a generation older than certainly james madison, thomas jefferson, alexander hamilton old enough to be their fathers although. franklin and adams is interesting. left as a young adolescent and i don't think they ever meet until. there's one moment franklin goes back to boston, tries very hard to figure this out. i don't think they ever cross paths. they are related because he becomes the agent in london so there's a lot of correspondence between the two of them between the committees on which adam sits and benjaminmm franklin. franklin is sufficiently revolutionary as are many people. the politics are suspect because he's been in great britain for

years. he's taken on some british errors and tries to keep the entire empire together. to be a little more cautious and prudent than it's being and not on the side of liberty. it is interestingly a great patriot because the tea party will arrive in london as they are about to be held responsible for having stolen the letters published by samuel adams and his friends in massachusetts before the council in london and for his role in that affair it fais days after arriving in lonn so he had been held responsible for all of this and it's

certainly that dressing down. in a funny way and directly. >> host: give us a sense how long does it take for london to find out about theou tea party? >> guest: it could take several months. >> host: what is the shortest time span? >> guest: it could be as many as a couple of months. it could take a while and not disconnect explains a lot of the problems into the trouble in therelationships because very oo it's right back to london for instructions on what to do and

there's at least another month and one direction and another so there is a lag to respond in any responsible way to what the colonists are doing or thinking. >> host: worships sailing daily? >> guest: definitely not daily from massachusetts. a little, bit behind and i don't know about new york and philadelphia scheduled. there were smaller vessels but several weeks out of that as an event. >> host: bill rocklin, california. please go ahead with your question or comment. >> caller: i am curious in addition to chronicling the sources, what do you look to and

what do you believe the value is as they are consuming the book? >> guest: what made you pick up the samuel adams book? >> caller: i've known of the work and i think she's a great writer and nonfiction writers that do wonderfully as she did in and e-mail. >> guest: that is such a lovely question. there's nothing better than knowing someone reads your endnotes probably because there is a certain circle. i've never figured out a way to adequately write a note even while i'm writing because that takes you away from the narrative. so the primitive notations to myself within the text but two

or three years later i can't read my handwriting anymore. to that reason you can't over annotate. i think you need to annotate "the new york times" headline on d-dayy, kind of thing. you need to annotate anything where you are looking for the sources and you want to be able to sort of tell what they are in case you want to go back to them and it is directly quoted otherwisee it's valid. you canr see on the cleopatra book these descriptions of alexandria from maybe 30 ancient chroniclers and i kind of have those altogether in an endnote.

the descriptions at cornell spoke to 150. their names are on one endnote aanswers interpretations and sometimes interesting little bits where the editor has cut out something they want to put back in because you can probably gett away from that with little bits and pieces of what you think are in trouble to the book but your editor may not agree on that turn out well. >> what percentage of the time is spent on endnotes in the totality of the writing? >> probably about six or eight after i finish writing the book because you think you're finished and you've hit your deadline but you haven't hit the endnotes yet.

you cannot reconstruct how you came up with this. it's been helped tremendously by the fact so many books are on google to document which in my first book it wasn't available to me and it also depends what kind of archives. published in an archive at the new york public library and none of that material was online so i couldn't search it that way. >> host: so it's 1994. your first book is being published about antoine, a biography. and i don't mean this offensively, but who were you writing that for? >> guest: you, peter. all these years later. one of the biggest selling books

and how brilliantly it held up. it's a very romantic book and it made me go back. there were various relationships that were instrumental and i noticed there wasn't of a book on the shelf that really did him justice. i started looking for a writer i could commission at the time to do a biography but every time i looked for an agent i failed to mention it and realized i wanted to write the book but i couldn't ask someone else to do it. i left my job in publishing thinking i would write this one book and go back to publish it.

he leads a fascinating life and he is constantly in trouble or unablele to find himself in an aircraft and it's compelling. there was a sense of wanting to bring the literature back. a tremendous amount of pain and it seemed like it was the right moment. i think it sold seven copies. there's one, maybe eight. >> host: then you won the pulitzer with your next book. samuel adams is a best seller. have all your books been

bestsellers? >> guest: cleopatra outsold the books combined which was a best seller and the revolutionary has been a bestseller. >> host: mike, detroit. good afternoon. >> caller: you covered a lot of ground from cleopatra to the enlightenment. one thing about ancient rome and this huge pantheon of gods they didn't have the scientific knowledge we have or the scientific method was it just politics and which may be have led to do they really believe in these pantheon? >> guest: we probably should have mentioned it so thank you for bringing it up. there's a lot of mileage with

various goddesses and as i say something like the isis cult in rome because it was a female supporting a female friendly colt when cleopatra is summoned by mark antony who appear before him about what shakespeare writes, he says he has making the way up to this encampment, coming for the good of asia basically say yes they very much take on those characteristics. it's a great point. >> host: please go ahead with your question orit comment.

you've got to turn down the volume on your tv and ask your question. >> caller: back to salem. they were only females. no males -- >> host: thanks, carmen. >> guest: i think you mean among the accused. ultimately there would be 14 women and five men who were executed. the accusations begin fairly quickly thereafter men are added to that mix. it's difficult to say why and at a certain pointrt for example te neighboring town of andover discovered he's related to something like 30 witches and they are being accused of witchcraft. one of the men who is accused is john proctor.

the name appears in the crucible and he's probably for the fact he doesn't buy into what's happening. he would rather thrash the servant then let her goas to the depositions that are taking place at this point because of the skepticism. anyone who was in any way a stand up and have some opinions and john proctor's wife who had a book in her pocket at all times and were overly intelligent or seemed overly intuitive were often accused. among the women it's often female relatives who themselves had been accused. it's much more hit and miss. but yes, men and women are both

accused. they go in all kinds of ways. the only relationship i think is not compromised they never seem to accuse each other. i always suspected a witch. >> host: and executes 14 women, five men and two dogs. >> guest: they were understood to beto diabolical. although they will say the dog couldn't have been because if so they wouldn't have died when he shot him. but there's a lot of questions about this. >> host: walter in ohio. >> caller: wonderful program. years ago in college, i had a revolutionary war class and the professor said he highly

suspected sam adams who fired the first shot at lexington and i was wondering what your thoughts are on this. >> guest: i think adams gets a lot of credit for things he didn't do. a lot of credit for things he didn't do and doesn't get credit for some of the thingshe he dido but one thing i'm fairly certain, and i tell you why i think that. he is in lexington as the troops march out and this for me was a point of entry into the book because we all know he gets on his horse and gallops wildly west but none of us thought for a minute they saw him going. the closest associate to warn they were about to be arrested and w the reason is because from

boston to the rest as quickly as possible that would be essential for us to act. nothing about collecting and conquer. for whatever reason, and i know thee reason they are to collect the munitions in congress. it would have been too dangerous at that point, not eager to detonate a revolution at this point. but they aim to alert hancock and that's what he does. he warns them who not as quickly as they should have finally vacated and are hiding in a swamp when the first shots are fired. paul revere would be on hand and you will hear the first shots but not see them.

adams and hancock are safely a few miles away. >> host: text message related. would the colonies have declared their independence of samuel adams didn't exist? >> guest: i think it is pretty certain and pretty clear that the colonies were independence bound or bound with some sort of rupture with great britain. what adams does in a way that is dazzling i think is tog articulate what the thinking is to essentially funnel these ideas out of the air, disseminate them and then a stand by them over the course of 14 years when everyone else has deserted the cause and not necessarily decided they are worth looking for so the fact that he insists on these

measures i think we owe him a massive debt. others a lot of other people that were ready. >> host: into the relationship between john and john quincy and sam adams? >> guest: he is an immensely good recruiter of menn recognizing talent and one of the earliest recruits is his younger cousin who looks up to samuel in a sort of starry way. they are quite remarkable. he often helps with legal advice and they are close collaborators. obviously he will equip samuel

and a seeing eye to eye. in the interim in 1770s when john adams is sent to france to assist benjamin franklin he is understood to be samuel adams because at that moment he was much more influential and such a greater presence. >> host: john adams was also the defense attorney for the british soldiers after the boston massacre. >> guest: conversations between the two cousins must have been remarkable. john serves as a defense attorney. among his colleagues if someone took the job because samuel adams insisted so he also had a role in that defense team. there were a number of reasons

you want to add adjudicate the property for some secrets not to come to life and do both of those things but they managed to see the men exonerated. he argues the case almost everyone is acquitted and after the acquittal spending six months relitigating the entire case in the papers. they arranged for that acquittal. there isn't any badt blood. it is the result they might have liked from the start. >> host: steve, new jersey. text message. i just finished samuel adams after all the time you spend on him, do you come away liking him? i'm not sure if i do. >> guest: i came off admiring him tremendously.

the things on which he insists and was modeled are integrity, public service, all these things i found tohe be stunning and unusable and very inspirational. where there are a lot of background negotiations and a good deal of strong-arming and litigating the boston massacre trials that were not so straight up? yes. they were always to my mind done on the side of the angels because he knew where he was going into the heart of the strategy. i think there are some wild but the descriptions of samuel i think tend to be descriptions, very refined, very affable and strangely a man always on the side of caution which is unusual

in a revolutionary. >> host: there's one book suggested and here's another one. this is steve in barrington, new jersey. i am not kidding. if she's never heard of him. >> guest: my website stacy schiff.com. send the information. >> host: have you heard of leo? >> guest: i've not. >> host: baseball. longtime manager i believe of the cubs and i will be corrected i'm sure shortly. just kind of a rough little guy. >> guest: someone is clearly reading my mind in my e-mail. i haven't mentioned to my publisher or agent. >> host: looking at the books, have any been an option for movies?

>> guest: yes and the one toto talk about will be an actual miniseries next year with michael douglas playing ben franklin and i can tell you that it is the most beautiful thing. it's just every image in the series. >> host: have you been able to consult on the series?e >> guest: the rest of it is somebody else's baby, not mine. the director is immensely talented and he's done an extraordinary job. right where franklin stood in the hallway where franklin walked andnd in interiors that look like what would happen his home just outside of paris at

the time and with his grandson in tow who does an extraordinary job. it takes place abroad and we lost sight of because it's a part of the revolution i think we would prefer not to remember because someone else helped us. we would rather focus on what ben franklin did. >> host: after he came back to the colonies were the states it wasn't a grand reception, was it? >> guest: know it's very poignant. franklin's return to america he's been gone for eight and a half years. he isn't certain at first whether he should return. he is very comfortable in france, beloved, there's a woman he might have a spent his life with but on the other hand what is this nation he's helped

create and he arrives only able to recognize people by their voices. can you imagine because he has been gone so long wondering for these eight and a half years thatar he was what he considered the most trying time of his life, which it was, and the answer is not really at all. nobody wants to think about the foreign power. we prefer to think of it is the little country that did and had. there's no recognition for his grandson, and he sees other people being reimbursed for his charges and he doesn't understand entirely why he is left out of the good graces of congress. >> host: he survived another three years or so the constitutional convention, governor of pennsylvania at one

point afterward. .. there has always been a rumor in some christian bishop destroyed that library so what is your take onn that? >> there's a lot of rumors but i do not know the one about the christian bishop. something of a? both how big the holdings of the library, how fast the holdings of the library were. we know an earthquake carried off what remained of it. there are some series a casualty it's a casualty of the alexandrian war it's one of the great mysteries it's one of the great unresolved mysteries which may be would be resolved they were evidently still pieces of

its not seen this with my own eyes. >> and victor out in los angeles, hi victor. >> hi. i am really enjoying thell interview. my question is about a relationship between mark antony and julius caesar. i read julius caesar mark antony was my favorite narrator. was it a jealousy between mark antony and julius caesar? it seems cleopas with both of them. >> it's an interesting situation. after caesar's death i should juliusopas has a child caesar and it winds up in rome i don't think most of us when caesar is a murderer.

on rome on the ides of march when caesar is murdered she's very quickly settled out of town and returns to egypt. after caesar's death there are a number of claimants. and one of those among the closest is mark antony who is a very different man from caesar. caesar was controlled mark antony is more impetuous and passionate character. they would say he is a frat boy. and marcus just assumes he will be the air. no it really counts on name as his heir yellow hair slightly frail becomes a gustus of course comes as a surprise to everyone in those days since caesar's

murder of the years i should say is important and powerful. cleopas has to figure out who is the best going to guarantee her in egypt's future. everyone appeals to her to help them to help contribute to their efforts to contribute money. she tries in as far as she can and ultimately should throw in her hat with mark. >> host: to wheat no worko cleopas' buried? works we do not know there is a moderate theory which you may have read rich's isis temple west of alexandria. there's a dig at being done periodically their pickaxes to

dig still going on? works andnd think is still going on i haven't read about it for a while. it's difficult for many but partly because the water table has to be exactly right to dig there. her other ears think there's a summer home there you could not dig when they were and residents in their all kinds of restrictions. cleopas makes a trip to antony's tomb on the day of her death. she would not have been able to do that if indeed that is where this took place. we do not know the answer to your question it's not impossible we will discover tomb onewi day. see what you said 70 years after the death of cleopas he is writing. so who knows what he's writing. but what was his importance in the roman empire? >> is one of the few dispassionate chroniclers he said magnificent writer. he's often proving a point he's

making a point puts a portrait of dissipation to some extent. he too is writing with a certain position. but, let me put his perspective put his position in perspective. one point his and alexander's cleopas they're throwing feast after fees and revelry after revelry there is an enormous amount going on the kitchen pigs are being roasted. there being roasted daily one of the cooks invites and a friend of his is a medical student so he can see an extraordinary act being performed in the kitchen on that took us to see the magic behind the kitchen kitchen handsewn the story to his grandson who tells it where i might have mangled that in any case it gives you a sense how close they are to the events of which they know. >> next call fort stacy schiff

s comes from elizabeth in oklaha city you are on book tv. >> doing genealogical research in the 17th century main at least two of the young accusers in young salem had been part or in the garrison houses attacked by the natives. i wonder if that's part of your story. >> these people are under siege in so many ways it's hard for us to get our mind around how vulnerable they would have felt. several of these girls had been orphans and all of them because of force with the native americans in those years. almost all of the girls on this to be true with that later

epidemic of the similar symptoms. one happened in new york not to long ago. several of these girls are living in homes where they are not but their biological families or with their biological father. they are very often if everyone in this community and their village would have known either a family member or a friend who is a victim or a bit mutilated in these wars it had been very traumatic. the sense every woman in new england would have conjured in her mind without she would deal with being taken captive work meeting with some intruder in the night. because when you read these accounts very often hear a confession of i'd read a captivity narrative and i saw what i would do in that position. i did not know if that was thei devil or i it was an indian in

my parler i had a dream is a dark person. it's clearly working from a similar playbook of fears and to intothose fears i should add are compoundedom when you see a lotf that imagery. some of the rich cap testimony of fears here in particular at thegirls and the women would hae shared in the imaginary world one of the girls who early on moves along forcibly most teenage girls would like to say to their parents i am done with you. she basically sells both of our parents on the river and in doing so amplifies the fears that have been at play until that point.

>> text message to follow up on that this is from rita, i've been a clinical psychologist for n 25 years i have always believd there is a very high probability of childhood sexual abuse within those communities. i see it all the time in the work that i have been doing and wondered if you researched any of this regarding the hysteria and conversion reaction? >> i research that about as well as when can. i will tell you why. seventeenth century new england was a very litigious place. seventeenth century new englanders were expert bookkeepers except for the nine months of the trial. until we have a marvelous set of documents to the court of the courts of sussex county. nine volumes, 11 volumes i am forgetting. court cases of the previous year so in those cases you see a lot of the tension that would a rep

in the course of 1692 bc a lot of confrontations between the families and you also see a lot of sexual abuse you seek servant girls who accuse their masters of abuse you see a lot of girls who are abused at the hands of the fellow servants in the family. they all them to court fairly often for sexual misdemeanors. you have a lot of pitchforks in the salem testimony what you don't have is any girl in that year who made any accusation of a sexual assault of any kind. those girls would have felt under siege in this way as well. there's nothing i could connect between the prior testimony in which there is still much detail all the salts and mishandling with the girls are suffering from at that moment. >> to use the word servants not slaves note slavery in 1692 per. >> is slavery typically there is slaves the girls were servants and other people's households.

it is a curiosity about that moment in new england. kids performed at the homes that were not their own. no one is entirely sure why they came to be. that seemed to be the adults could better teach and discipline youth in your own parents might be able too. many of these girls were servants and other people's households and that is how they are meant to be that was their apprenticeship for those years. >> the role of the broomstick and how that came to be. >> for the which is of the salem are for the most part anglo-saxon by which they conform to the literature and the imagery they will indulge which is sabbath.

very colorful details. those two elements came from continental witchcraft. continental what were funded anglo-saxon they have much-s moe document create much more sexual dynamics and disrupt households in much more perverse ways those two elements probably in my mind came to new england thanks to our friend cotton hood written about it epidemic. those elements were incorporated into the imagery in 1692. >> brenda, alexandria at minnesota we have about 10 minutes left go ahead brenda. >> thank you. i am descended from who is hung for witchcraft in salem and 1692.m she was hung along with her

sister rachel town nurse and her other sister sarah was accused of witchcraft but never hung. i would like any tidbits you have about my ancestry. >> you have an amazing set of ancestors. mary wrote a petition to the court which was just as bone chilling. essentially saying could we have desmet couldn't we be moved to another court we have a different set desmet could be what we tried people are perhaps a little more objective? include we have evidence of their that provided by these clearly deluded girls. it's a very heroic piece of writing at that moment. and yes all three sisters seem to be accused because of it earlier land disputes which bordered salem village.

that dispute you can read a lot. in years for generation. they counter each other about land boundaries. there are generally defined as the rock over there to the yellow trees to the wall at the corner. that wasn't exactly an objective way of doing boundaries. there's a lot in the records of file about the land dispute which does seem to be the reason why the three sisters were all accused. witchcraft rent and families once a woman was accused it wasn't unusual for her female relatives to also be accused. >> we should note stacy schiff was born in adams, massachusetts. whether that is significant or not we do notot know. every author that appears on in depth we ask favorite book what they are currently reading. here were at her answers

favorite books, surely hazard the transit of venus. the leopard. harold nicholson some people. plus nearlypl everything by the late hilary mantell. carr, and elizabeth strauch. currently reading three books lp hartley the go-between. john bands oh, snow and neil williams this is happiness. speak to one of the books are currently reading. chris and not reading them all simultaneously if i could go back to adam's message doesn't play a role because i was mortified i was named for sam adams and i was mortified i did know more about him. what am i now reading? >> bricks talk about hartley. this is a novel it always comes up in oblique ways and i never thought to read it at 1750 novels by a fairly eccentric writer it's a novel in which the first line is famous the past is

a foreign country. they do think differently there. obviously you can see the appeal to someone who writes history for au living. it is a very odd beautiful book that reads in the queue and it seems like a cousin to atonement. it's one of these novels that is wrapped around eight man looking back on his younger self who has a beautiful frame. it isut remarkable. >> do you think you could write a novel? >> not i fear not i would love to but i fear not pick or ask wy do you fear not? >> maybe i will go home and start one today. i feel as if there's something about nonfiction there are boundaries of some kind there is a chronology of some kind or something built and i find very comfortable.

orders under oath because you can't make things up. that somehow it's a better with what i do on the page for pursuitshow one tweet you sent r twitter address but here's a tweet you sent out oh my goodness and with astonishing company. barack obama's favorite books of 2022 on there is a revolutionary samuel adam. adrian is in las vegas you are on the stacy schiff please go ahead for. >> hello you are a wonderful writer.. if years back i wrote cleopas. i cannot remember what you had said a greatem mystery is about her death. that she actually commit suicide or is his men get to her first? >> thank you adrian. >> thanks. she does commit suicide. one of the mysteries is a counterfactual way to look at it.

may have encouraged her to commit suicide the way the storv comese. down to we have it from two sources which cannot be reconciled because they are so different. she commits suicide he is astonished and frustrated because he had hoped to parade her in his triumph and rome. taken back he's done everything he could to keep her alive to try to starve yourself to death. she tried to stop herself he has interceded he said everything make sure sheyt remains alive in her treasures not lost to him. but there is a counterfactual line of reasoning which goes like this, it was not necessarily a good idea to parade a very powerful female captive in rome that had been done sometimes you pity and it might've been more convenient o for him if she simply eliminad herself. he could not be the one obviously to do away with cleopas who is beloved by her people.

so there may have been in a deal this in the book there's a line of reasoning that could go it was convenient to him it made it possible for her to distance herself. >> is the intrigue you have explored does it make us look like amateurs todayay with our political intrigue? >> it is so shrewd and conniving. we are mind about how shrewd and conniving and what it expert at time and she was. so yes she is utterly resourceful and a tactician of the first rank. when we read about american politics of the 18th century a great many things have remained the same. interesting thing with the revolution to is the patriots accuse the officers of conspiracywn and unfortunately e

are out of time. stacy schiff talking about her books her most recent the revolutionary weepers or your ye about tv. >> book tv now continues. ♪ if you are enjoying a book tv sign up for our newsletter schedule of upcoming programs, author discussions, book festivals and more. book tv every sunday on cspan2 or any time online about booktv.org. television for serious readers. ♪ >> a jew note c-span book tv programs are available to watch online. go to booktv.org and type