of sor rah kneel hurston and the history of southern life. watch c-span's encore presentation of books that shaped america week mights at nine eastern on c-span or go to c-span.org/books that shaped america to view the series and learn more about a each book featured. >> all of this month watch the best of c-span's q&a. on sunday journalist and historian craig e fairman anizes presidents in his book, author in chief, sunday night at 8 p.m. eastern on c-span's q&a. you can listen to q and a and all of our podcasts on our free c-span now app a. ♪ >> weekends on c-span2 are an intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's story thes. and on sundays, booktv brings you the latest in nonfiction books and authors.

funding for c-span2 comes from these television companies and more, including cox. >> this syndrome is extremely rare. hi. but friends don't have to be. this is joe. when you're connected, you're not alone. >> cox, along with these television companies, supports c-span2 as a public service. >> starting from the far end of the table, burt dunkerly who comes tos us there if richmond nashville park.k. i think he's the one guy in the room that has more books than i do, which is fantastic. he's a book-writing animal, most recently co-author of battle of stone's river where he as a young lad got his or start working in the park service when he went to east tennessee state. middle tennessee state, gotta get that right. there's somead tennesseans gettg

mad at me. he's waving his cane at me me. our chief historian, cecily sander, how do you guys think she did today, by the way? [applause] i've gone to the jefferson davis school of human resources of. [laughter] finish next to her is tim talbot, our book review ed editor, by day he's the chief administrative officer for the central virginia battlefields trust. we'll hear b a little bit from them tomorrow the. lots going on in the chancellorsville area from a preservation point of view right now on a bunch of different fronts. we'll fill youyo in on some of that.s tim's one of the guys on the frontt lines who's really trying to make sure we're able to address that properly. our former chief historian, my great polish brother chris kolik kowski. [applause] chris got his start here at

fredericksburg national military park long, long ago when the polish still had horses for cavalry, which i think was last weeking actually, right? [laughter] right now he's the director of the veterans maw seem for the state -- i museum for the state of wisconsin. so we have more than cheese there, they have veterans too. ask and he tells a wide story of the involvement of wisconsin eites -- wisconsinites in the armed services. the things he'll randomly mail me, he's on the adventure of a lifetime that he was made for. they're very lucky to have him up there in wisconsin. and last but not least, our great friend tim smith who's been gracious enough to sign books and answer questions tonight. [applause] so i actually want to start by kind of framing the discussion here, the grease task before us,

which of course comes from the gettysburg address. and i want to read this -- i had to memorize it, like, in second grade like many of you did. i think i remember i had to have the fake felt beard when i did that. did anybody have to do that? made hats outep of card board or construction paper. lincoln, at the dedication of the semitower, turns in a largee we cannot dedicate, we cannot hallow this ground. the brave men living and dead who struggled here have concentrate crated it -- concentrate crated it far bo our poor power. the world will long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. it is for us, the living rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. it is, rather, for us to be here

dedicated to the great task removed before us. and from these honored dead, we take increased devote for that cause to which they gave the last full measure of devotion that we here highly resolve, that these dead shall not have died in vape. that this nation under god shall have a new birth of freedom. and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. and that's's what lincoln -- how lincoln framed the great tasking before us. so i want to kind of ask our panelists tonight as you think about 1863 and everything that was going on from stone's river right up through the end of the year and line l up con -- lincon frames all of this in terms of this unfinished work, what is

the greatas dassing -- what dos the great task before us map to you? the first lightbulb i see over someone's head -- [laughter] it's the great poet brother chris. chris? button at the bottom. >> well, let's start with why lincoln needs to frame the year in the first place. and this is something that is a fact that, quite frankly, stares us in the face but is not necessarily fully -- the emotional impact of is not fully appreciated. from in the seven months between may 1en and november 30th, 863 - 1863, there were over 140,000 americans killed, wounded, captured and missing. the three bloodiest battles in the civil war and american mill military history up to that time occur in that time frame. chancellorsville, gettysburg. 140,000. the united states doesn't wade through that much blood in that

time frame at my other time in the 19 19th century. in fact, the next time it will wade through that much blood in that short of a time frame, even shorter -- [inaudible] and then we wade through that much blood again in that time frame in 1944 in the last six, seven months of 19444 and the first seven e months of 19 that in the pacific -- 11945 in the pacific alone are. so the scale of human destruction that is occurring in this country in 1863 on top of a very bloody 18 of 2 -- 1862, that's why t lincoln has to go o gettysburg. because the country, the united states, what does this mean? this is getting worse. it's getting bloodier. what does this mean? what is this war really about? he goes to getties burg -- [inaudible] and the conclusion, i think, is perfect for that because, you know, if yo' read the gettysburg address and you read it -- go back to read it now with that

statistic in mind. go back and read it and think about the emotional impact pact if -- [inaudible] this is a country that is ripping itself apart over war and is wading through blood unlike any we've seen up to that time -- [inaudible] now you have to read the get, the ysburg address with that in mind, laying out the case for the united states. and then standing here -- [inaudible] bloodiest battle in american history. there's no guarantee that gettysburg will remain in that title as 1864 -- [inaudible] in fact, gettysburg will hold that title depending oven how you score it until the 20th century, but there's no guarantee thatco that's going to be the case. so lincoln goes there to explain what this means but also to tie -- [inaudible] the dead shall not have died in vain. to me, that's very important. this sacrifice matters. what we are doing now matters,, and we havee to stay the course.

.. he's using at an opportunity to rally, and he's defining what it's about as a go forward trying to finish the war. so to me that's what this is. you can't understand the t chare he makes and the statements he makes without remembering the context because it makes that speech to my might even greater than what it is and that's one of the greatest beaches in american history. >> when he frames it context why think about is in terms of his a look at -- the soldiers for

getting hate mail h from home, fredericksburg was a disaster and the soldiers were like this will all been for nothing if we just do it now. they send these very angry letters home saying we have to see this through. so anna soldier level we see that early in 1863. lincoln articulates. lincoln articulated so eloquently on a national level as a vision in late 1863. someone else? >> what rings for me ofwh course is when he says a new hope for freedom. of course that's going to come through the signature of the emancipation proclamation on january 1, 1863. he issued the emancipation proclamation in september 62 but that document is going to change over that 100 days. it is going to allow american men to serve in the army and, of course, a fewew months later you

had the formation of the bureau ofof colored troops and get my penis is going to put the war on a whole new level of allowing this may deserve in the army. >> we all know a double negative for the confederacy is knowing taken labor way but it adding manpower to the union effort. >> yet we think about literally a new birth of freedom for people who had t been enslaved. and so this new national vision offers that literally new freedom. >> i even think about lincoln at this moment of course. lincoln is many things but he's a master political tactician. and another thing he knows that he's giving the speech in november. a year from now he's going to be up for reelection and looming in the back of his mind is the thought that if he does not the cheap reelection and a democrat comes to power after all we see the democrats doing and the rise of the copperheads and

opposition to the war, political opposition to the war, he is greatt fear at the end of 1863 s that he will be reelected, that the country won't go want to achieve the military victories necessary to return him to the white house. part of the task remain in lincoln's mind although a sound sort of sinister say-so, if that he knows that if he can get another term, if the war hasn't ended by then he's going to end it and ended with slavery abolished.d, because of the democrat comes to power in all likelihood lincoln leads not only do we get george mcclellan on thehi $20 bill or the five dollars bill, which is terrifying, like imagine open your wallet in saint george mcclellan said face. [laughing] we also get probably ended up in the confederacy. so to make very scary outcomes if you're abraham lincoln. he calls dibs on the five. i think lincoln has had in my guestbook. part of the great task remaining is ensuring that against the gen z relies on the generals, he trusts among them heg going to

rise to the fore in 1863. we just heard your laces as great the tools he needs to set up for the men for success are going to achieve victories and return link to the white house the november after he gets the gettysburg address. >> since the microphone is moving its way toward you, i think about stones river sort of sealing the deal without any emancipation proclamation that tim mentioned. we stored in 1863 kind of with this victory that allows lincoln finally startrt moving this visn forward. in a very tactical battlefield centric way. how important is that for setting up the rest of the year? >> yeah, it's an unusual occurrence. we start thewi year with a major battle going on. lasted 1862, into the first two days of 1863. event and with stones river you had defeat

at fredericksburg, you know, a couple of weeks earlier and you had defeated chickasaw bayou. so the other two primary union armies have meant defeat. and here's maybe not a one, but it's a victory in tennessee. bragg retreats, and that's all you need. so, yeah, it's extremely important. lincoln would write, you know, to rosecrans the union commander. you know, you, us, a hard won victory when we really needed. so i'll of lure the microphone back in this direction for tim and just sort of in general tim, the idea of the great task before us when what meaning does that have for you? well, i think it militarily, it obviously means that the war is not done yet, that we still have more to do. and we've got to win this thing. it's i don't really have a lot more to add than what these these folks have, but being a military historian, i think more in terms of the military aspects. and and as i mentioned before,

you know, lincoln certainly couldn't pinpoint a certain time, oh, this battle won the war. gettysburg, you know, was the beginning of the end. he's he's looking at this and absolutely saying there's still a whole lot more to do. and we haven't put a bow on this yet of that's the great task. so is there a key moment in the year of 63 where the you as a might kind of focus in and say like this is something that's overlooked as this moment in this concert potential year and it doesn't necessarily have to be like a turning point moment or anything like that, but something that maybe is unappreciated in this march toward this new of freedom. everybody else, aaron's or rather rather so. again, i'll go back to my uncles and their opportunities to prove themselves in places like battery and billikens being in

port hudson, they had the opportunity to provide their example of what they could. they could provide, you know attack, they could sacrifice their lives to prove that they're just as many, just as much of a man as anyone else. and that's going to have huge repercussions on down the road, especially in 1964. and to me, that's fascinating because, you know, you talk about how the emancipation proclamation changes from draft form, final form, it gets shorter here and yet there's more stuff in the final version, including the idea that we're going to bring black troops into the army. but then what does that look like? what do we do with them? how do we operationalize that? so 63 is really kind of the answer to that. like, how do we make this what does this look like? and becomes pivotal to set things up for 64? i think i would throw in and chris alluded to this, i think the new york city draft are a

hugely important moment, not just in terms of the war because they pull a lot of political issues into focus for lincoln and the administration, but also to understand at this point in the war or the initial sort of wave of three year volunteers there coming up, they're running out of time right. and the citizen soldier fervor is now having to be compelled by a military draft. and for a country prides itself on being a democratic republic, the fact that we've had to turn to a draft to fill our ranks is really, really difficult for people to swallow because they view it as an a bridge of their fundamental rights that they shouldn't have to be compelled to serve in the armed forces, because that's what oligarchies and monarchies do. and americans should never have to be compelled to do that. it's the first real time in our history. we have turn to this. so the draft riots point us to this really important moment in the war where the volunteerism and the citizen soldier remains at the forefront.

but we're also having a conversation of how are we going to supply the manpower to win this war if we do run out of pure volunteers, if we do run out of men who are willing to march to the battlefield? and i think part of the answer to that is that the bloodshed has become sort of unthinking a war unimaginable in terms of the war began. right. the war begins in 1861 and everyone thinks it's going to be a big battle. and one time and we're going to go have a picnic and it's going to be over at the end of it. and and they're now starting to realize that not only are there going to be battles, there are going to be campaigns that take weeks and months at a time when you are going to be under every single day over the course of multiple days and months. and that's a different kind of soldiering and something americans aren't accustomed to do. and the citizens, soldiers who were so eager in 1861 are less eager in 1863. and the draft riots point us to some of that tension for the common soldier and whether they are brave enough to volunteer or

their service has to be compelled and what that's going to like. yeah it's really incredible if you look at the makeup of the armies in 1864 like those are much different than they were in 1863 because of the nature. the people who are filling those regiments and the motivations to get in there in the first place, of course, i'll give you two. one on one by land, one by sea. i a couple of lanterns in the back window. there was a revolutionary war. folks love that the above the land one is actually of sicily alluded to it in her remarks. the tullahoma campaign which was overlooked even at that time. and by the way, i know a good one for sale back there, if anybody's at all interested, but you know, rosecrans said it do not overlook this victory because it was not written in letters of blood. but if you look at the link, the essential links in the chain chain of events that is necessary to move the federal army from louisville, kentucky,

through nashville, through chattanooga, atlanta, to the sea to the carolinas. that critical middle link is tullahoma and. the fact that it occurred at the birds point timing matters because. it occurs at the same time as the fall of vicksburg and fall of or the end. the victory. gettysburg. the union victory at gettysburg. the union victory at fort hudson. so the land won the c-1 is the arrival of the s.s. alabama in the southwest pacific in the fall of 1863, where she takes several u.s. merchant ships. and that does two important things. number one, it globalize the civil war. we should never forget that the confederate commerce raiders globalized the civil war. our friends from the uk roundtable were back there saying, thank you, thank you very much, thank you're, welcome to. this the second thing that it does is it energizes as the us asiatic squadron if we had been sending ships out there since commodore perry in 1853, we'd actually been fighting few

skirmishes with pirates in and around and in what's now the western pacific. as we know, the first island chain to use the modern term for it. but this energizes the us navy to have a more robust presence in asia, which it has maintained to varying reefs right up to this very best. and so from that perspective, when you look at the united states really broadly as an asiatic pacific power 1863 and then of course shenandoah in 1864 and 65, energize the us navy to operate more and more, to have more and more of a presence in the world. we know that there is the indo-pacific and so that's something worth remember as well and worth recalling in 1863. but. all of this throw something else out with the changes coming in 1863 as the union army moves further into south and occupies more territory. and now we have the emancipation

proclamation in effect, and we have, you know, active recruiting of colored in the south, you know they're establishing camps and bases and recruiting stations in occupied southern territory for southern civilians this is the point of no turning back. i mean there's their social system is being dismantled in front of them and they can't do anything about it with the union army occupation of the union army doesn't always stay, but in places where it does stay and those areas are permanently occupied like like middle tennessee and, you know, parts of virginia, carolina coast, you know the active recruiting of of african american soldiers and using them is just of the the effort to destroy confederate infrastructure and dismantle its society. and that's huge thing especially for confederate home front to see that. tim i want to go back to

something you had talked about when. dwight had asked the question about grant's relationship with porter, and it seems to me like that's that's a relationship that is often overlooked. and yet it's really key in developing grant's overall strategic thinking and how moving in the parts that he's got on on the chessboard, how you know and people talk about grant sherman but how might you weigh those that grant makes with any of his subordinates or any of his equals in allowing him to progress in in his development as a commander, which i think is a really important thing of 63. well, obviously, you do it in a vacuum, grant says the decision was all my own, but it really wasn't he. he takes input from others and he has to ask help from others. and obviously there's no bigger help than the united states navy. i'm not sure grant takes vicksburg the way he does. obviously, the he does without the navy. and so you're talking about one of the things that's very

underreported or under appreciated. yeah that's the word is the navy at um at vicksburg and so, you know, his relationship with. porter um, and even with of the lower officers below. porter a very significant i was just sitting here thinking i was thinking tullahoma as well when he first mentioned that, um, but if i had had another just to keep focus on vicksburg, i'd say grace was right when wayne leads that, that ray. southward into mississippi that, the importance of that and how it knocks pemberton off kilter and um it can't be be i might be the only person in the room who had never seen the horse soldiers and when i read i know i know i know well and so i read jim's book and as a result, the real horse and say, well

apparently so he's going call john wayne a fake, you know. but anyway. so i'm a shift position here. so i get out from the crowd just a second. i'll ask the other panelist. i move. i asked him about the relationship between grant and porter. are there other relationships are key in the 63 that did help in the development of events that you think are particularly significant. not brag and pull pull. so i'd like to say justice for william holden it's not just a john wayne myth. oh, that's right. that's he's gorgeous. i, i think for at least the army, the soulmate is a

relationship between the soldiers themselves and the commander of the army. so you know, there all the hero worship for for mcclellan and they even like burnside in hooker. but after that defeat at chancellorsville it seems like that luster is worn off. they don't really view their commanding officer as being that heroic type. yeah, the relationship has really changed there and you see that a lot in their letters that comes through. actually, i would argue bragg and polk in a very negative because of how they corrode that army and bragg and jeff davis and bragg and whoever else he's quarreling with at the moment but you covered that extremely well to me 1863 in many ways and and vicksburg is a great example is is the further evolution of grant and sherman into the partnership that's going to win the war. it's the partnership that won

shiloh. it's the partnership that wins, particularly when you think about the responsible assignments that sherman is given in the campaign particularly when grant takes the bulk of the army to the south of the city and then covering covering grant's rear and jackson, you know, so to me, that's you see that evolution. then it goes right up through chattanooga, although you can quibble with sherman as a tactician there's no question that grant is becoming and more reliant on him as his right arm. and so to me, that's that evolution of that partnership sets stage for them. winning the war in 1864 and 1865. i do have a series answer. okay, i know. hard to believe. i think agencies is really interesting because robert e lee has to learn to command differently. if we think about command relationship. sure. and he learns this obviously at gettysburg when he issues a discretion order that stonewall jackson would have out. and richard, you will absolutely

not. so robert e lee in, the fact that, you know, 1863 sees a reorganize zation of army of northern virginia kind of sees the breakdown of that original kind of phenomenon force storm to victory at chancellorsville entered pennsylvania at the absolute peak of its confidence and leaves pennsylvania wondering if this new sort of three core structure versus the two wings is going to work. so i think robert e lee has to kind of evaluate his job as a commanding officer of an army in the wake of stonewall death in 1863. and so i think, again, if we're talking about relationships that dissolve. it wasn't jackson's fault. he couldn't there to, you know, continue the relationship i say it was they should he went out where no lieutenant general should have been. and i say that with in my heart for stonewall jackson. well well and, rest in peace is. him that i understand. lee and his new army have to learn to get differently. and i think one of these great

strengths. right, is he adjusts, he learns, and he needs to manage. you will. and he'll very differently than he managed. longstreet in jackson and lee gets credit for being a learner in that regard and and becoming a micromanager he didn't really need to be before. lincoln and grant and because grant in 1863 emerges as i like to say he's lincoln's problem solver and he figures out vicksburg. there's a mess over at chattanooga he goes over there figures that out shows that he can can clean things up and get things done. and lee on lincoln finally has found the person who's going to get results. and i think a relationship that fascinates in 63 is lincoln in seward because you know, of course, lincoln has, that cabinet crisis in the end of 62 that could have led in seward's dismissal. lincoln plays it in the most excellent political which i think unshackle seward in some really effective ways for 63 who

then basically he serves as full back and just you know runs forward as you making blocks and letting lincoln kind of do what lincoln needs to do by running a lot of political interference. so i think seward becomes much more effective. his relationship with lincoln becomes much sharper and, much more deeply seated in trust than. it had been up to that point. and sort of course, you know, does fantastic work all the way through. i want to start opening things up for questions. i saw your hand up first. if you still have your question now. okay, so welcome to the worst. oh, okay. all right. very well. another person who i hear that william holden is gorgeous, so you might want to check him out. so i'm going to ask folks to please stand, introduce yourself and ask the question if you want it, to direct it to. a specific panelist, please mention by name. hi, i'm pat scheyer. my question is open ended. it's we've heard about the relationship to see evening

between grant and number of people especially sherman can you compare and that relationship during that campaign to the relationship between we've heard just a little bit about lee and longstreet and how one seemed to. merge and the other one seemed to dive age. so any. lee in longstreet versus grant and sherman. i think what you're you're rolling your eyes before you even answer that could not tell us that's just like this the glare this glare of my glasses i was not i think if you if we robert e lee here right now and said did you have a falling out with longstreet. i think he would deny that they did they just needed space had they going to couples counseling they could have worked through those things without needing send james longstreet to knoxville to harass ambrose

burnside and effectively i think lee and longstreet um they need space from one another. but i don't think either of them would have said their relationship had dissolved any lee is so eager to have longstreet back it will not surprise you to learn after serving under braxton bragg longstreet is eager to go back to northern virginia. they're welcomed on to the field in the wilderness. right this a sort of rapturous reception so i think lee and longstreet's relationship it meets a hurdle uh and i there was always there was the feeling that something needed to be to help braxton bragg something to be done to relieve the situation. tennessee and that's part of why. longstreet out there and he volunteers to do it but lee is kind of at a point where he says, i'll let him go, but only if you really think he needs.

i don't think there was all that much animosity. i think during the gettysburg campaign longstreet feels he is doing his duty as a soldier. and remember, he and lee are both profession west point trained officers. longstreet knows that as a subordinate commander, he has the right to question decisions his generals making and make that known to the general in a private meeting. but then lee ultimately orders the attack must go ahead needs to carry that out. we don't need to open that can of but i think longstreet felt had every right to make the objections did at gettysburg and he would continue to debate lee and going forward obviously after the war a of heat comes down on longstreet because he's best friends with ulysses grant and becomes a republican and that's troubling for people like jubal early. but i think their relationship it hits a bump in the road but i don't think either of them felt the other behaved inappropriately. and i think sometimes the literature might give us that miss. and there are ways to correct

that. i grant and sherman would astonishes me. and some of us have about this sherman is able to immediately recognize that he does not want grant's job because he's scared to do it right. he says that he's got that sort of famous remark is the grant is that that when i'm in command when i sherman i'm in command all i can think about is what the other doing and all grant thinks is what he's going to do to the other guy. he doesn't worry about it. and i think sherman's brilliance in many ways is in recognizing that he is safe in grant's hands and he will go to the wall, go the wall for grant time and time again, because he doesn't necessarily want grant's job and there's no animosity between them for that because he knows grant can handle and he can. right. he has that sort of breakdown in kentucky early in the war because he's in ultimate command he panics. so i think, you know, one element of their relationship emphasize is there was never really any competition who the right guy for the job was because of them felt that they

had the job, that they were doing the right and they're perfectly suited to each other. i don't that lee and longstreet necessarily had that lack of competition, but i think longstreet ultimately resigned himself to having to lee's orders. but he was going to when he thought it was appropriate to do so. i think to you know, if you characterize lee and longstreet as sort of having this diverging relationship thing we forget is like longstreet gets grievously wounded, almost as soon as he's back. so we don't really get to see them kiss and make up. he comes back months later and lee continues to lean on him heavily when finally does. but that interruption, i think, kind of disrupts that narrative in the way that you're kind of talking about. one of the things that always amazes me about sherman and grant is like sherman underperforms and grant always has his back. i mean, you know, he messes things up at shiloh and deploys poorly and gets surprised. that's the school you should be attending. yeah, right. exactly. yeah, yeah, right. and you know, when after the fall of when as tim mentioned

earlier, sherman is sent to stop joe johnson's army of relief, he sort of chases them away. but destroy them, you know, chattanooga and yet grant continues to back him up. and so we sort of have created this narrative, them really working together. but there's a lot of grant's sustaining sherman through some of that too. so other questions mean go up here to the front. i nobody nobody gets my microphone all right i'm so used to grabbing at myself i'm charlie seaford out of fredericksburg out of the rappahannock valley civil war round table and so yes big on chancellorsville but have you ever looked at is there other relationship like the relations between reynolds and after the battle of chancellorsville where reynolds who's been meade superior for a long time says no meet you take command as is

there any other thing like that. have you written much about is there much study on it? it's unusual. it's very different from yeah, jackson, i want you to go over there. no it's jackson. take over the army. that didn't happen. i think the classic example out west is charles f smith, who was the whatever commander of cadets at west point when grant was a commandant. uh, when grant was a cadet. and when grant starts to move upward in the army at fort donelson, henry, he finds himself command of the army and see of smith division commander and fact grant is very worried about and see if smith has to tell him look you're in command no worry about rank. you know, you're you're doing well for yourself keep going. i'll follow your orders and it takes a certain amount of a lack of ego to do that on smith's part, and not a lot of generals

would be willing to forgo their ego for that but it's it's the first example that comes to my mind. tim and you'd mentioned earlier sherman outranked at one point do you would you had mentioned that sherman had outranked grant 1.0 yeah. oh early in the war at fort rainier in fort donelson, sherman is his commanding at paducah and we'll forward troops forward when grant's still a brigadier general and sherman was brigadier general before he was appointed. so by date of rank he would have that rank and same thing given of to for the greater good another over here in my burns spotsylvania parkway, about 10 minutes away for tim and vicksburg and the park. what is the plan going to repair thanksgiving the extensive damage of the storm a year or two ago?

well, larger than just a storm, it's erosion type of soil that's there. and so i'm pretty confident the plan going forward is to do. 9850 to government studies and assessments and public opinion and all of that kind of stuff. and so i'm positive it'll be years before anything happens, but hopefully, you know, the whole north end of the park is down the vicksburg national cemetery hit. part of it has sloughed off bodies, not bodies but remains been on earth. so it's mess down there. a lot of it is due to the particular type of solar, the the particular weather that they've been getting. but it's it's a mess. and i'm i'm not sure i see it getting fixed any time soon. we have another question over here. joe trujillo, the phil carney civil war roundtable, new jersey. can somebody please explain to

me why was so much animosity? brant, had against george toms toms. i'm going to ask my polish brother to answer this only because you've been with the the capital civil war roundtable in and thomas is buried in nearby. so that's another excuse. thanks. thanks. thanks for that. now i have thought about this and as somebody who's written about the army, the cumberland pondered the career, military career of george thomas. i think there's a couple of things part of it's it thomas thomas's papers were were destroyed and there's not much out there will's biography thomas is probably the best thing going on, general, and it's very, very good. i don't want to disparage that book in any way. i think it's outstanding with what the sources he had.

i think it's a mixture of clashing, personal style, clashing personalities and professional jealousy. because if you think about the personnel cities of grant and thomas they are very there different people and you know with today here we are 160 years later trying to dissect the relationship of two men who have been long dead and there are probably things that were apparent to people in the room that doesn't translate well on the page. and we've seen some accounts of that. there's the famous one of chattanooga, where grant rides the rain and gets there and thomas kind of stares at him. and finally, one of his staff officers says, what would you like to, you know, sit in front of the fire and have a cup of coffee, warm up, general, saying that to grant, you know, but so we can kind of get a sense of what the dynamic was between them and that at that particular moment. but it's one thing to read about. it's another thing to be in the room there. some professional jealousy. i do, i do agree with that argument. when halleck was reorganizing

after shiloh, he elevated grant to in command of the army group, for lack of a better term, and put thomas in charge of the army of the tennessee. therefore superseding grant's and nearly driving grant to such despair that he was going to resign his commission. and sherman, fortunately talked him out of it so that is a sore point that thomas is very exist and will continually remind grant of. and then you had the you know just the different philosophy of of of conflict, a different philosophy of war thomas, much more methodical thomas and also was much more you know, approached war differently, approached campaigns differently than grant. um, you know and you put all those things together and i think they just butted heads and sometimes, sometimes it's, it's the intangibles too. and why i say, you know, it's it's tough without actually watching the two of them in action.

it's tough. kind of put my complete finger on it at the best the best i can come up with on the, you know, on the available records that we have. excellent. i just have a just a couple more questions before we wrap up here. i have frank scutaro, grant association. i was going to ask a question about the relationship that battery wagner between morgan and denzel washington. i was not but had also brought out certainly can get excluded instead i want to get your take the anxiety that joe johnson in cause brandon sherman the period that we're talking about and of course also to speak to how grant of sherman for years after the civil war had such respect such a high opinion of john huston, when they were asked about confederate commanders certainly a higher esteem for

him than historians tend to have. but you can speak to that. yeah, yeah. the course they held johnson in such high esteem, baffling. i don't know how he how he earned that you know but we do know that grant is absolutely paranoid of joe johnson coming to to raise the siege to lift the siege to relieve vicksburg in this turns out we know from hindsight that there's nothing to worry about because johnson didn't he washed his of the whole situation he didn't want to come to mississippi to begin with and davis order in mississippi. and the first thing he does when he arrives is send a message says i'm too late. you know. so he watches his hands of this thing entirely. but grant obviously doesn't know that. and he knows his reputation. the old army and i think we see this in a lot of different situations that the reputation precedes the person and people

make judgment on the reputation rather than what they're they're capable of. and think. that's what happens a lot with with johnson. i don't think sherman is quite as fearful of johnson is as grant is. but grant's calling the shots. and as i said, he seems, you know, well over a third of his army back to the rear to to take care of this situation. of course, he can afford to do it at that point. and it's it's likely the smart thing to do. but, yes, he he is absolutely paranoid. i can't really figure out what no need to be. the memoirs are fascinating because grant and sherman are highly complementary of in the memoirs. and my theory on this is the better they johnson look the better they look for beating johnson right. so sherman he does bend over in his memoirs to talk about joe johnson. and they did become great friends and. it's sort of based around this idea that they going to settle the war. you know, man to man had been in

place and all of this. they felt that their surrender mattered more and kind of come together on this subject. but sherman's members are hilarious. we haven't read it because he's constantly talking about how he met johnson after the war and was like, why didn't you attack me here? and johnson's like, that, don't know. and sherman's like, what about here? when had the perfect opportunity? and johnson's like, i don't know, but because i was retreating, i was on my to key west. so but i think making johnston look good look like a great soldier makes grant and sherman look better. so i also think there's an element of that even subliminally, like the better johnson looks, the more successful we look. because we beat the best general in the confederate army number you have written about the surrender between and johnson and there's like a tidiness to that whole of the story where they come together, you know, the dissolution of the armies is messy but like they, you know, johnson serves as sherman's funeral as a pallbearer. tell me a little bit about how that affects that narrative.

yeah, i think it. i think it does sort of color the way we think about it and. remember that because and especially in the post war, they have that that relationship and as the war ends and going into the postwar period have that friendship but you know, i'm thinking of also about bentonville where johnston and, you know by no means is perfect but he cobbles together a force pretty and is able to put a big dent in sherman's plans in north carolina it comes pretty close to defeating a good part of the union army bentonville and should get some credit for that that for a rarely aggressive moment for joe johnston and that probably caught sherman off guard i know it did. okay. one last question from the

audience at deborah hamer from williamsburg and i the question i have is sicily touchstone is now one of the find out what your opinion is about the political consider that went into the into this the ivus going forward how much did did lincoln's depend upon quote unquote his political in order to unite the country and bring into into the fight the democrats that are living the north. how much did that affect their ability to win the war that's a that's a complex question to unravel obviously the political generals serve an important function because when you have armies of citizens that are professional soldiers they respond much better to citizens who they recognize as public figures rather than martinet. regular point trained officers. so the generals have an important function in that

regard. we're going to hear from zach fried tomorrow. his book makes a really compelling case that it was actually sort of junior officers and even sort of higher ranking ncos that most visibly influenced the politics of the men in the ranks. and they tended to be young republicans. and so you see this transition over the war. the army's actually becoming more republican, even though there's democratic opposition on the home front. but the armies themselves become kind of more republican bodies on the political sort of scene. lincoln spends 1863 as frustrated as he's in 1861. in 1862, that every single one of his western generals achieving victories and nobody because his eastern keep losing to robert e lee or failing to consolidate their victories against lee, as meade does at gettysburg and. lincoln knows that public opinion is so focused on virginia. and what's going on with lee's army that it doesn't matter. the grant's everywhere he sets foot in terms of the politics and so one of lincoln's big

calculations in 1863 is does bringing grant to to take command of all of the and then him eventually joining meade's army to fight against lee is that the key to the political question is how do i start achieving victories in virginia? because that lincoln knows politically that matters more than all of the victories in the theater. and that's why so many of us get so frustrated, because we love the western theater. and oftentimes it doesn't get as much attention because. the battles don't have the social political economic ramifications. the war is won in the west. right. but all attention is focused on the east. it's a lot of that work out in the west lincoln in 1863 politically is still puzzled through that problem. he's puzzling through the question of how do i get people to appreciate what has done, which is essentially capture, you know, thousands of miles of confederate territory and no one seems to have noticed and. lincoln is banging his head against a wall, trying to to figure out how to turn this into a positive political advantage in terms of running the next

year for president. excellent. so i want to just give you each the opportunity. we'll start burke and work our way down as listened to tonight's discussion. we've listened to our presentation since earlier today what sort of final thought would you like to send folks out the door with. do we have any new braxton bragg fans? yes. not. we're all going to come out with unibrow tomorrow. i think that. you know, the war is a progression of things as as time goes from year to year and and the war evolves in different ways. 1863 is obviously important in a lot ways, and that's just what i've been thinking about is, you know, the military things that happen that, you know, that coincide with the political and social changes that are happening, the is evolving and, you know, the unions penetrate even more confederate territory

capturing permanently holding it those those things going to be irreversible if the confederate stop it and they can't and don't and these that we've talked about the emergence sherman and and these personalities with the talked about, the emergence of sherman and grant to greater and greater positions and the ability to influence things. all these things are building. so that's whatin i'm thinking about. >> i think just quickly sort of my take away is the question my students always ask me in my civil war class, why do you spend so much time talking to us about military issues, tactics, files can what goes on? what 1863 shows us is its correlator to what's happening politically, economically internationally and so paying attention to these battles and campaigns in there bank tensiono the way people responded to them allows us to chart investment in the war, morale on the homefront, all of these questions. just keeping in mind 1863 is the

crucible for this. these campaigns are going to determine attitudes and outcomes for the remainder of the war. the pivot, hinges the war. new issues are introduced so we have to be attention to all of those things in conversation. 1863 really shows us that clearly for the first time in the war. >> yeah, i think the whole emancipation thing is soldiers really start doing that different because they see, takes a long time for it to turn out. a lot ofar those guys especially the union army are against emancipation. we have all officers, especially from the border states, slave owning border states that are leaving the army. the enlisted men can't do that. they signed up for three years. the officers can submit their resignations but it takes a long time for these guys to see this is a good thing for them, if they're going to win the war, going to see're lax and white as equal but they see the end of slavery is good help them win the war sooner. that just takes a long time to

work out in the process but 1863 is really when you start to see this churning through. >> i second all points had been made. i will safely say a hint of the work i want to develop at a little bit bit further. because this iste of the year wn the united states attain some strategic supremacy in the w wa. and sets up an agency could for campaigns. doesn't mean the war is over by any stretch of imagination. doesn't it mean it's the beginning of the end but this is the time the confederacy is dealt a body blow in the sum of 1863ur in vicksburg, tullahoma, gettysburg and port hudson for which it never fully recovers. so from the balochistan . that's important. we talk about emancipation. people forget the emancipation proclamation recited the front lights agenda one, 1863. from that point forward whenever the union army's would advance, that would be army's of liberation. so that means all that square miles that are open to union occupant tatian, from that point

forwardds brings freedom to thousands upon thousands upon thousands of people. and the last thing i will come back to that come those numbers because this is not cheap by any stretch of imagination. 140,000 that i cited earlier in the seven months from may one to november 30, 1863, at the same as the approximate u.s. casualties for three years of the korean war. from june 25, 1952, the armistice. soso don't ever forget that humn cost and that's the human cost thate affects everybody. every community north or south is affected by that number to some degree. some committees consider it more -- gettysburg practically the pot put at the military of two counties in minnesota without loss that they had. okay? so that scars communities. that defines communities and defines a nation. it's no accident to me that some of the first outfields preserved

in this country were chickamauga, vicksburg, gettysburg. and then you had a few others in there as well. that illustrates to me how important to that generation to the veterans and to the nation, and that to me put an exclamation point on the importance of this and why it matters. so now i'm going to turn over to vicksburg.th here you go. >> i would just sit here, thinking the first week in july, obviously i mentioned you couldn't win a presidential caucus or nomination in iowa or new hampshire, where you can't win a pennant in april or may. well, that first week in july, that's your super tuesday in a presidential primary, or that's the dog daysog of august down te

stretch in a baseball season. i would suck at that. but my big take away, moving from the past to the press is just what a class act emerging civil war is,s, what chris and e gang has done in putting on a conference like this and all yo folks, it's highly compressed, it's a pleasure to be here and be part of it and kudos, , well done. keep it up. >> thanks. [applause] >> weeknights at night eastern c-span's on encore presentatf our ten part series books a shaped america. c-span partner with the library of congress which explored key pieces of literature that aboutd a profound impact on her country. tonight we will feature zora neale hurston 1937 novel "their eyes were watching god." the story set in central d southern florida during the jim crow era.

watch c-span's encore presentation of books the shaped america weeknights at nine eastern on c-span or go to c-span.org/"books thathad america" to view the series and learn more about each book featured. >> american history tv saturdays on c-span2, ex point the people and events that tell the american story. at 5:45 p.m. eastern and look at the life and evolving legacy of robert oppenheimer, father of the atomic bomb. at 9:30 p.m. eastern on the presidency, a discussion about the lifelong friendship of

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every teacher who has a students participate in this year's competition has the opportunity to share a portion of an additional $50,000. the competition deadline is friday january 19, 2024. for information visit our website at studentcam.org. >> weekends on c-span2 on intellectual feast. every saturday american history tv documents america's stories, and on sundays boov brings you the latest nonfiction books and authors. funding for c-span2 c-sm these television companies and more including midco. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> midco, along with these television