starting from the far of the

table, burnt dunker lee, who comes to us from richmond, national battlefield park, bart's the one guy in the room. i think he's got more books than i do, which is fantastic. he's a book writing animal. most recently coauthor of force of a cyclone, battle of stones, river where he, as a young lad got, his start working at the park service when he went to an east tennessee state, middle tennessee state. we're going to get that right there. there's some tennesseans over here are going to get mad at me where they go. they actually look he's out here waving his came at me like. oh i'll get you are chief

historian cecily zander is how do you guys i think she did today by the way what are you think is i've i've gone to the jefferson davis school of human that's right so next to her is tim talbot. tim is our book review editor, an emerging civil war by day he's the chief administrative officer for the central virginia battlefields trust. we'll hear a little bit from them tomorrow. lots going on in the chancellorsville area from a preservation action point of view right now on, a bunch of different fronts. we'll fill you in on some of that. but tim's one of the guys on the front lines who is really trying to help make sure that we're able to address that properly. so tim, thank you very much for being with us tonight. our former chief historian, my great polish brother, chris koehler koski. chris got his start here at fredericksburg, spotsylvania national military park long, long ago when the polish still

had horses for cavalry, which i think was last week actually right there. that right now he's the director, the veterans museum for the state of wisconsin. so have more than cheese there. they have veterans, too. and he tells a wide story of the involvement of wisconsinites in the armed services. it's a fantastic museum of the things that he'd like randomly email me, like, hey, look what i today, you know? and it's like, oh, jeez. so it's kind of neat. he's off on an adventure of a lifetime that he was made for. they're they're very lucky to have him up there in wisconsin. and then last but not least, our friend tim smith, who's been gracious enough to stuff cakes and books and answer questions tonight and so i actually want to start by kind of framing the discussion here, the great task before us, which of course comes from the gettysburg. and i want to read this.

i had to memorize it like in second grade, like many of you did, i don't i think i remember had to have like the fake felt beard when i did that and anybody have to do that make it stovepipe hats out of cardboard or construction. but lincoln at the dedication the cemetery says in a larger sense we cannot dedicate we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground. the brave men living and dead who struggle here have consecrated it far above our poor power to add or attract the world with little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here it is for us living rather to be dedicated to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. it is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us.

there. from these honored dead, we take devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion that we here highly resolve that these dead shall have died in vain, that this nation, under shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people shall not perish from the earth. and that's how lincoln framed the great task before us. and so i want to kind of ask our panelists tonight is, you think about 1863 and everything that was going on from stones river right up through the end of the year and lincoln frames all of this in terms of this work, what does the great task before us mean to you i wait for the first

light bulb i see over someone's head. oh, it's the great polish brother. chris kolakowski. button at the bottom. well, let's with why lincoln needs to frame the year in the first place and is something that is a fact that quite frankly stares us in the face but is not necessarily fully emotional impact of is not fully appreciate from in the seven months between may one and november 30th, 1863. there are over hundred and 40,000 americans on both sides killed, wounded, captured and missing. the three bloodiest battles in the civil war and the three bloodiest battles in american history up to that time occur in that time frame. chancellorsville, gettysburg, chickamauga 140,000. the united doesn't wade through that much blood in that time frame at any other time in the 19th century.

in fact, the next time it will wade through that much blood in that short time frame, even shorter. in fact, be 19, 18, and then it will wade through that much blood again in, that time frame in 1944, the last six months, seven months of 1944, and the first seven months of 1945 in the pacific alone. so the scale of human distress that is occurring in this country in 1863, on top of a very bloody 1862, that's why lincoln has to go to gettysburg, because country the united states. what does this mean? this getting worse? it's getting bloodier. what does this mean? what is this war really about? he goes to gettysburg to define the conflict and the conclusion i think is perfect for that because it's you know, if you read the gettysburg address and you read it go back and read it now that statistic in mind, go back and read it and think about the emotional, the draft rights.

i mean, this is a country that is ripping itself apart over the war and is wading through blood unlike anything we've seen up to that time. that's history. now go back and read the gettysburg address with those facts in mind. you see, lincoln's out the case for united to united states, and then he's standing there at a cemetery. and the bloodiest battle in american history. there's no guarantee that that that gettysburg will remain in title as 1864 dawns, the package will hold that title depending on how you score it until the 20th century. but there's no guarantee that that, in fact, will be the case. and so lincoln goes to explain what this means, but also the time the dead shall not have died in vain to me, that's very important. this sacrifice matters is what we are doing matters. and we have to stay the course. and so when i think great task force, i think he's being actually quite literal in the sense he's laid out the stakes

of the war. we, we this is our great task task in the united states is to finish the war and complete the unification emancipation objectives that our national objectives. he's using it as an opportunity rally. he's using it as an opportunity to assign meaning. and he's he's defining what this war is about. and what and setting an objective is as they forward to try and finish the war. and so to me, that's what this is. and you can't understand the charge that he makes the statements and debates without remember i mean, recalling that context because it it makes that speech to my mind, even greater than what it is, even now. it's one of the greatest speeches in american history. and when you frame it in that broad national context like that, and i kind of think about it in similar terms when you look at the winter camps here around fredericksburg in 1863 and the soldier workers who are getting hate mail from home like, oh, this war is awful fredericksburg was a disaster and the soldiers were like, this

will all have been for nothing if we just give up now shut your face, you know. and they send these very angry letters home saying we have to see through so unarmed and a soldier level. we see that early in 1863. and lincoln articulates it so eloquently on a national level as a vision in late 1863. so someone else too. what rings for me, of course, is when he says a new hope of freedom. and of course, that's going to come about through his signature on the emancipation proclamation on january 1st, 1863, he had issued the pointer for emancipation proclamation in september of 62, but document is going to change over that 100 days and it is going to allow african american men to serve in the army. and then, of course, few months later, in may of 1863, you have the formation, the bureau of colored troops and in my opinion, that's going to put the

war on a whole new level of allowing those men to serve in the army. and as we all know, a double negative for the confederacy is not only taking labor away from, but it's adding manpower to the union effort. yet we think about, you know, literally a new birth of freedom. people who had been enslaved. and so this new national vision, that literally new freedom, suddenly i think thinking about lincoln at this moment, of course, lincoln is, many things. but he's a master political tactician. and another thing he knows that he's giving this speech in november a year from now. he's going to be up for reelection and. looming in the back of his mind is the thought if he does not achieve reelection and a democrat comes to power, after all we've seen the democrats doing the rise of the copperheads and clement blanding him and opposition to the political opposition to the war. his great fear at the end of

1863 is that he won't be reelected, that the country won't go on to achieve the military victories necessary, to return him to the white house. part of task remaining in lincoln's mind, though, it sounds sort of sinister to say so, is that he knows that if he can get another term, if the war hasn't ended by then he's going to be the one to end it and end it with slavery abolished. because if a democrat comes to power in all likelihood, and lincoln believes not only do we get george mcclellan on the the $20 bill or the $5 bill, which is a terrifying like i just imagine opening wallet and seeing george mcclellan's face. we also get probably in independent confederacy. so two very scary outcomes if you're a abraham lincoln, he called dibs on the five. and i think lincoln has that in mind as well. part of the great task remaining is ensuring that he gives the generals he relies on them, the generals he trusts, and among them who's going to rise to the fore in 1863. we've just heard ulysses and the tools he needs to set up other

men for success who are going to achieve the victories that are going to return. lincoln to the white house. the november after he gives the gettysburg address. and let me kind of since the microphones moving its way towards you anyway and i think about river is sort of sealing the deal laid out in the emancipation proclamation that tim had mentioned. so we start 1863 kind of with this victor tree that allows lincoln to finally start moving this vision forward. and in a very tactical battle field centric way, how important is that for setting up the rest the year? yeah, it's it's an unusual occurrence. we start the year with a major battle going on. the last day of 1862 into the first two days of 1863. so, you know, timing is everything with any event and with stones river you had defeat at fredericksburg, you know, a couple of weeks earlier and you

had defeated chickasaw bayou. so the other two primary union armies have meant defeat. and here's maybe not a one, but it's a victory in tennessee. bragg retreats, and that's all you need. so, yeah, it's extremely important. lincoln would write, you know, to rosecrans the union commander. you know, you, us, a hard won victory when we really needed. so i'll of lure the microphone back in this direction for tim and just sort of in general tim, the idea of the great task before us when what meaning does that have for you? well, i think it militarily, it obviously means that the war is not done yet, that we still have more to do. and we've got to win this thing. it's i don't really have a lot more to add than what these these folks have, but being a military historian, i think more in terms of the military aspects. and and as i mentioned before, you know, lincoln certainly

couldn't pinpoint a certain time, oh, this battle won the war. gettysburg, you know, was the beginning of the end. he's he's looking at this and absolutely saying there's still a whole lot more to do. and we haven't put a bow on this yet of that's the great task. so is there a key moment in the year of 63 where the you as a might kind of focus in and say like this is something that's overlooked as this moment in this concert potential year and it doesn't necessarily have to be like a turning point moment or anything like that, but something that maybe is unappreciated in this march toward this new of freedom. everybody else, aaron's or rather rather so. again, i'll go back to my uncles and their opportunities to prove themselves in places like battery and billikens being in port hudson, they had the

opportunity to provide their example of what they could. they could provide, you know attack, they could sacrifice their lives to prove that they're just as many, just as much of a man as anyone else. and that's going to have huge repercussions on down the road, especially in 1964. and to me, that's fascinating because, you know, you talk about how the emancipation proclamation changes from draft form, final form, it gets shorter here and yet there's more stuff in the final version, including the idea that we're going to bring black troops into the army. but then what does that look like? what do we do with them? how do we operationalize that? so 63 is really kind of the answer to that. like, how do we make this what does this look like? and becomes pivotal to set things up for 64? i think i would throw in and chris alluded to this, i think the new york city draft are a hugely important moment, not

just in terms of the war because they pull a lot of political issues into focus for lincoln and the administration, but also to understand at this point in the war or the initial sort of wave of three year volunteers there coming up, they're running out of time right. and the citizen soldier fervor is now having to be compelled by a military draft. and for a country prides itself on being a democratic republic, the fact that we've had to turn to a draft to fill our ranks is really, really difficult for people to swallow because they view it as an a bridge of their fundamental rights that they shouldn't have to be compelled to serve in the armed forces, because that's what oligarchies and monarchies do. and americans should never have to be compelled to do that. it's the first real time in our history. we have turn to this. so the draft riots point us to this really important moment in the war where the volunteerism and the citizen soldier remains at the forefront. but we're also having a conversation of how are we going to supply the manpower to win

this war if we do run out of pure volunteers, if we do run out of men who are willing to march to the battlefield? and i think part of the answer to that is that the bloodshed has become sort of unthinking a war unimaginable in terms of the war began. right. the war begins in 1861 and everyone thinks it's going to be a big battle. and one time and we're going to go have a picnic and it's going to be over at the end of it. and and they're now starting to realize that not only are there going to be battles, there are going to be campaigns that take weeks and months at a time when you are going to be under every single day over the course of multiple days and months. and that's a different kind of soldiering and something americans aren't accustomed to do. and the citizens, soldiers who were so eager in 1861 are less eager in 1863. and the draft riots point us to some of that tension for the common soldier and whether they are brave enough to volunteer or their service has to be

compelled and what that's going to like. yeah it's really incredible if you look at the makeup of the armies in 1864 like those are much different than they were in 1863 because of the nature. the people who are filling those regiments and the motivations to get in there in the first place, of course, i'll give you two. one on one by land, one by sea. i a couple of lanterns in the back window. there was a revolutionary war. folks love that the above the land one is actually of sicily alluded to it in her remarks. the tullahoma campaign which was overlooked even at that time. and by the way, i know a good one for sale back there, if anybody's at all interested, but you know, rosecrans said it do not overlook this victory because it was not written in letters of blood. but if you look at the link, the essential links in the chain chain of events that is necessary to move the federal army from louisville, kentucky, through nashville, through chattanooga, atlanta, to the sea

to the carolinas. that critical middle link is tullahoma and. the fact that it occurred at the birds point timing matters because. it occurs at the same time as the fall of vicksburg and fall of or the end. the victory. gettysburg. the union victory at gettysburg. the union victory at fort hudson. so the land won the c-1 is the arrival of the s.s. alabama in the southwest pacific in the fall of 1863, where she takes several u.s. merchant ships. and that does two important things. number one, it globalize the civil war. we should never forget that the confederate commerce raiders globalized the civil war. our friends from the uk roundtable were back there saying, thank you, thank you very much, thank you're, welcome to. this the second thing that it does is it energizes as the us asiatic squadron if we had been sending ships out there since commodore perry in 1853, we'd actually been fighting few skirmishes with pirates in and around and in what's now the

western pacific. as we know, the first island chain to use the modern term for it. but this energizes the us navy to have a more robust presence in asia, which it has maintained to varying reefs right up to this very best. and so from that perspective, when you look at the united states really broadly as an asiatic pacific power 1863 and then of course shenandoah in 1864 and 65, energize the us navy to operate more and more, to have more and more of a presence in the world. we know that there is the indo-pacific and so that's something worth remember as well and worth recalling in 1863. but. all of this throw something else out with the changes coming in 1863 as the union army moves further into south and occupies more territory. and now we have the emancipation proclamation in effect, and we have, you know, active recruiting of colored in the

south, you know they're establishing camps and bases and recruiting stations in occupied southern territory for southern civilians this is the point of no turning back. i mean there's their social system is being dismantled in front of them and they can't do anything about it with the union army occupation of the union army doesn't always stay, but in places where it does stay and those areas are permanently occupied like like middle tennessee and, you know, parts of virginia, carolina coast, you know the active recruiting of of african american soldiers and using them is just of the the effort to destroy confederate infrastructure and dismantle its society. and that's huge thing especially for confederate home front to see that. tim i want to go back to something you had talked about when. dwight had asked the question about grant's relationship with

porter, and it seems to me like that's that's a relationship that is often overlooked. and yet it's really key in developing grant's overall strategic thinking and how moving in the parts that he's got on on the chessboard, how you know and people talk about grant sherman but how might you weigh those that grant makes with any of his subordinates or any of his equals in allowing him to progress in in his development as a commander, which i think is a really important thing of 63. well, obviously, you do it in a vacuum, grant says the decision was all my own, but it really wasn't he. he takes input from others and he has to ask help from others. and obviously there's no bigger help than the united states navy. i'm not sure grant takes vicksburg the way he does. obviously, the he does without the navy. and so you're talking about one of the things that's very underreported or under

appreciated. yeah that's the word is the navy at um at vicksburg and so, you know, his relationship with. porter um, and even with of the lower officers below. porter a very significant i was just sitting here thinking i was thinking tullahoma as well when he first mentioned that, um, but if i had had another just to keep focus on vicksburg, i'd say grace was right when wayne leads that, that ray. southward into mississippi that, the importance of that and how it knocks pemberton off kilter and um it can't be be i might be the only person in the room who had never seen the horse soldiers and when i read i know i know i know well and so i read jim's book and as a result, the real horse and say, well apparently so he's going call john wayne a fake, you know.

but anyway. so i'm a shift position here. so i get out from the crowd just a second. i'll ask the other panelist. i move. i asked him about the relationship between grant and porter. are there other relationships are key in the 63 that did help in the development of events that you think are particularly significant. not brag and pull pull. so i'd like to say justice for william holden it's not just a john wayne myth. oh, that's right. that's he's gorgeous. i, i think for at least the army, the soulmate is a relationship between the soldiers themselves and the commander of the army.

so you know, there all the hero worship for for mcclellan and they even like burnside in hooker. but after that defeat at chancellorsville it seems like that luster is worn off. they don't really view their commanding officer as being that heroic type. yeah, the relationship has really changed there and you see that a lot in their letters that comes through. actually, i would argue bragg and polk in a very negative because of how they corrode that army and bragg and jeff davis and bragg and whoever else he's quarreling with at the moment but you covered that extremely well to me 1863 in many ways and and vicksburg is a great example is is the further evolution of grant and sherman into the partnership that's going to win the war. it's the partnership that won shiloh. it's the partnership that wins,

particularly when you think about the responsible assignments that sherman is given in the campaign particularly when grant takes the bulk of the army to the south of the city and then covering covering grant's rear and jackson, you know, so to me, that's you see that evolution. then it goes right up through chattanooga, although you can quibble with sherman as a tactician there's no question that grant is becoming and more reliant on him as his right arm. and so to me, that's that evolution of that partnership sets stage for them. winning the war in 1864 and 1865. i do have a series answer. okay, i know. hard to believe. i think agencies is really interesting because robert e lee has to learn to command differently. if we think about command relationship. sure. and he learns this obviously at gettysburg when he issues a discretion order that stonewall jackson would have out. and richard, you will absolutely not. so robert e lee in, the fact that, you know, 1863 sees a

reorganize zation of army of northern virginia kind of sees the breakdown of that original kind of phenomenon force storm to victory at chancellorsville entered pennsylvania at the absolute peak of its confidence and leaves pennsylvania wondering if this new sort of three core structure versus the two wings is going to work. so i think robert e lee has to kind of evaluate his job as a commanding officer of an army in the wake of stonewall death in 1863. and so i think, again, if we're talking about relationships that dissolve. it wasn't jackson's fault. he couldn't there to, you know, continue the relationship i say it was they should he went out where no lieutenant general should have been. and i say that with in my heart for stonewall jackson. well well and, rest in peace is. him that i understand. lee and his new army have to learn to get differently. and i think one of these great strengths. right, is he adjusts, he learns, and he needs to manage. you will.

and he'll very differently than he managed. longstreet in jackson and lee gets credit for being a learner in that regard and and becoming a micromanager he didn't really need to be before. lincoln and grant and because grant in 1863 emerges as i like to say he's lincoln's problem solver and he figures out vicksburg. there's a mess over at chattanooga he goes over there figures that out shows that he can can clean things up and get things done. and lee on lincoln finally has found the person who's going to get results. and i think a relationship that fascinates in 63 is lincoln in seward because you know, of course, lincoln has, that cabinet crisis in the end of 62 that could have led in seward's dismissal. lincoln plays it in the most excellent political which i think unshackle seward in some really effective ways for 63 who then basically he serves as full back and just you know runs

forward as you making blocks and letting lincoln kind of do what lincoln needs to do by running a lot of political interference. so i think seward becomes much more effective. his relationship with lincoln becomes much sharper and, much more deeply seated in trust than. it had been up to that point. and sort of course, you know, does fantastic work all the way through. i want to start opening things up for questions. i saw your hand up first. if you still have your question now. okay, so welcome to the worst. oh, okay. all right. very well. another person who i hear that william holden is gorgeous, so you might want to check him out. so i'm going to ask folks to please stand, introduce yourself and ask the question if you want it, to direct it to. a specific panelist, please mention by name. hi, i'm pat scheyer. my question is open ended. it's we've heard about the relationship to see evening between grant and number of people especially sherman can

you compare and that relationship during that campaign to the relationship between we've heard just a little bit about lee and longstreet and how one seemed to. merge and the other one seemed to dive age. so any. lee in longstreet versus grant and sherman. i think what you're you're rolling your eyes before you even answer that could not tell us that's just like this the glare this glare of my glasses i was not i think if you if we robert e lee here right now and said did you have a falling out with longstreet. i think he would deny that they did they just needed space had they going to couples counseling they could have worked through those things without needing send james longstreet to knoxville to harass ambrose burnside and effectively i think

lee and longstreet um they need space from one another. but i don't think either of them would have said their relationship had dissolved any lee is so eager to have longstreet back it will not surprise you to learn after serving under braxton bragg longstreet is eager to go back to northern virginia. they're welcomed on to the field in the wilderness. right this a sort of rapturous reception so i think lee and longstreet's relationship it meets a hurdle uh and i there was always there was the feeling that something needed to be to help braxton bragg something to be done to relieve the situation. tennessee and that's part of why. longstreet out there and he volunteers to do it but lee is kind of at a point where he says, i'll let him go, but only if you really think he needs. i don't think there was all that much animosity. i think during the gettysburg

campaign longstreet feels he is doing his duty as a soldier. and remember, he and lee are both profession west point trained officers. longstreet knows that as a subordinate commander, he has the right to question decisions his generals making and make that known to the general in a private meeting. but then lee ultimately orders the attack must go ahead needs to carry that out. we don't need to open that can of but i think longstreet felt had every right to make the objections did at gettysburg and he would continue to debate lee and going forward obviously after the war a of heat comes down on longstreet because he's best friends with ulysses grant and becomes a republican and that's troubling for people like jubal early. but i think their relationship it hits a bump in the road but i don't think either of them felt the other behaved inappropriately. and i think sometimes the literature might give us that miss. and there are ways to correct that. i grant and sherman would

astonishes me. and some of us have about this sherman is able to immediately recognize that he does not want grant's job because he's scared to do it right. he says that he's got that sort of famous remark is the grant is that that when i'm in command when i sherman i'm in command all i can think about is what the other doing and all grant thinks is what he's going to do to the other guy. he doesn't worry about it. and i think sherman's brilliance in many ways is in recognizing that he is safe in grant's hands and he will go to the wall, go the wall for grant time and time again, because he doesn't necessarily want grant's job and there's no animosity between them for that because he knows grant can handle and he can. right. he has that sort of breakdown in kentucky early in the war because he's in ultimate command he panics. so i think, you know, one element of their relationship emphasize is there was never really any competition who the right guy for the job was because of them felt that they had the job, that they were doing the right and they're

perfectly suited to each other. i don't that lee and longstreet necessarily had that lack of competition, but i think longstreet ultimately resigned himself to having to lee's orders. but he was going to when he thought it was appropriate to do so. i think to you know, if you characterize lee and longstreet as sort of having this diverging relationship thing we forget is like longstreet gets grievously wounded, almost as soon as he's back. so we don't really get to see them kiss and make up. he comes back months later and lee continues to lean on him heavily when finally does. but that interruption, i think, kind of disrupts that narrative in the way that you're kind of talking about. one of the things that always amazes me about sherman and grant is like sherman underperforms and grant always has his back. i mean, you know, he messes things up at shiloh and deploys poorly and gets surprised. that's the school you should be attending. yeah, right. exactly. yeah, yeah, right. and you know, when after the fall of when as tim mentioned

earlier, sherman is sent to stop joe johnson's army of relief, he sort of chases them away. but destroy them, you know, chattanooga and yet grant continues to back him up. and so we sort of have created this narrative, them really working together. but there's a lot of grant's sustaining sherman through some of that too. so other questions mean go up here to the front. i nobody nobody gets my microphone all right i'm so used to grabbing at myself i'm charlie seaford out of fredericksburg out of the rappahannock valley civil war round table and so yes big on chancellorsville but have you ever looked at is there other relationship like the relations between reynolds and after the battle of chancellorsville where reynolds who's been meade superior for a long time says no meet you take command as is there any other thing like that. have you written much about is there much study on it?

it's unusual. it's very different from yeah, jackson, i want you to go over there. no it's jackson. take over the army. that didn't happen. i think the classic example out west is charles f smith, who was the whatever commander of cadets at west point when grant was a commandant. uh, when grant was a cadet. and when grant starts to move upward in the army at fort donelson, henry, he finds himself command of the army and see of smith division commander and fact grant is very worried about and see if smith has to tell him look you're in command no worry about rank. you know, you're you're doing well for yourself keep going. i'll follow your orders and it takes a certain amount of a lack of ego to do that on smith's part, and not a lot of generals would be willing to forgo their ego for that but it's it's the

first example that comes to my mind. tim and you'd mentioned earlier sherman outranked at one point do you would you had mentioned that sherman had outranked grant 1.0 yeah. oh early in the war at fort rainier in fort donelson, sherman is his commanding at paducah and we'll forward troops forward when grant's still a brigadier general and sherman was brigadier general before he was appointed. so by date of rank he would have that rank and same thing given of to for the greater good another over here in my burns spotsylvania parkway, about 10 minutes away for tim and vicksburg and the park. what is the plan going to repair thanksgiving the extensive damage of the storm a year or two ago? well, larger than just a storm, it's erosion type of soil that's

there. and so i'm pretty confident the plan going forward is to do. 9850 to government studies and assessments and public opinion and all of that kind of stuff. and so i'm positive it'll be years before anything happens, but hopefully, you know, the whole north end of the park is down the vicksburg national cemetery hit. part of it has sloughed off bodies, not bodies but remains been on earth. so it's mess down there. a lot of it is due to the particular type of solar, the the particular weather that they've been getting. but it's it's a mess. and i'm i'm not sure i see it getting fixed any time soon. we have another question over here. joe trujillo, the phil carney civil war roundtable, new jersey. can somebody please explain to me why was so much animosity?

brant, had against george toms toms. i'm going to ask my polish brother to answer this only because you've been with the the capital civil war roundtable in and thomas is buried in nearby. so that's another excuse. thanks. thanks. thanks for that. now i have thought about this and as somebody who's written about the army, the cumberland pondered the career, military career of george thomas. i think there's a couple of things part of it's it thomas thomas's papers were were destroyed and there's not much out there will's biography thomas is probably the best thing going on, general, and it's very, very good. i don't want to disparage that book in any way. i think it's outstanding with what the sources he had. i think it's a mixture of clashing, personal style,

clashing personalities and professional jealousy. because if you think about the personnel cities of grant and thomas they are very there different people and you know with today here we are 160 years later trying to dissect the relationship of two men who have been long dead and there are probably things that were apparent to people in the room that doesn't translate well on the page. and we've seen some accounts of that. there's the famous one of chattanooga, where grant rides the rain and gets there and thomas kind of stares at him. and finally, one of his staff officers says, what would you like to, you know, sit in front of the fire and have a cup of coffee, warm up, general, saying that to grant, you know, but so we can kind of get a sense of what the dynamic was between them and that at that particular moment. but it's one thing to read about. it's another thing to be in the room there. some professional jealousy. i do, i do agree with that argument. when halleck was reorganizing after shiloh, he elevated grant

to in command of the army group, for lack of a better term, and put thomas in charge of the army of the tennessee. therefore superseding grant's and nearly driving grant to such despair that he was going to resign his commission. and sherman, fortunately talked him out of it so that is a sore point that thomas is very exist and will continually remind grant of. and then you had the you know just the different philosophy of of of conflict, a different philosophy of war thomas, much more methodical thomas and also was much more you know, approached war differently, approached campaigns differently than grant. um, you know and you put all those things together and i think they just butted heads and sometimes, sometimes it's, it's the intangibles too. and why i say, you know, it's it's tough without actually watching the two of them in action. it's tough. kind of put my complete finger

on it at the best the best i can come up with on the, you know, on the available records that we have. excellent. i just have a just a couple more questions before we wrap up here. i have frank scutaro, grant association. i was going to ask a question about the relationship that battery wagner between morgan and denzel washington. i was not but had also brought out certainly can get excluded instead i want to get your take the anxiety that joe johnson in cause brandon sherman the period that we're talking about and of course also to speak to how grant of sherman for years after the civil war had such respect such a high opinion of john huston, when they were asked about confederate commanders certainly a higher esteem for him than historians tend to have. but you can speak to that.

yeah, yeah. the course they held johnson in such high esteem, baffling. i don't know how he how he earned that you know but we do know that grant is absolutely paranoid of joe johnson coming to to raise the siege to lift the siege to relieve vicksburg in this turns out we know from hindsight that there's nothing to worry about because johnson didn't he washed his of the whole situation he didn't want to come to mississippi to begin with and davis order in mississippi. and the first thing he does when he arrives is send a message says i'm too late. you know. so he watches his hands of this thing entirely. but grant obviously doesn't know that. and he knows his reputation. the old army and i think we see this in a lot of different situations that the reputation precedes the person and people make judgment on the reputation rather than what they're they're

capable of. and think. that's what happens a lot with with johnson. i don't think sherman is quite as fearful of johnson is as grant is. but grant's calling the shots. and as i said, he seems, you know, well over a third of his army back to the rear to to take care of this situation. of course, he can afford to do it at that point. and it's it's likely the smart thing to do. but, yes, he he is absolutely paranoid. i can't really figure out what no need to be. the memoirs are fascinating because grant and sherman are highly complementary of in the memoirs. and my theory on this is the better they johnson look the better they look for beating johnson right. so sherman he does bend over in his memoirs to talk about joe johnson. and they did become great friends and. it's sort of based around this idea that they going to settle the war. you know, man to man had been in place and all of this. they felt that their surrender

mattered more and kind of come together on this subject. but sherman's members are hilarious. we haven't read it because he's constantly talking about how he met johnson after the war and was like, why didn't you attack me here? and johnson's like, that, don't know. and sherman's like, what about here? when had the perfect opportunity? and johnson's like, i don't know, but because i was retreating, i was on my to key west. so but i think making johnston look good look like a great soldier makes grant and sherman look better. so i also think there's an element of that even subliminally, like the better johnson looks, the more successful we look. because we beat the best general in the confederate army number you have written about the surrender between and johnson and there's like a tidiness to that whole of the story where they come together, you know, the dissolution of the armies is messy but like they, you know, johnson serves as sherman's funeral as a pallbearer. tell me a little bit about how that affects that narrative. yeah, i think it.

i think it does sort of color the way we think about it and. remember that because and especially in the post war, they have that that relationship and as the war ends and going into the postwar period have that friendship but you know, i'm thinking of also about bentonville where johnston and, you know by no means is perfect but he cobbles together a force pretty and is able to put a big dent in sherman's plans in north carolina it comes pretty close to defeating a good part of the union army bentonville and should get some credit for that that for a rarely aggressive moment for joe johnston and that probably caught sherman off guard i know it did. okay. one last question from the audience at deborah hamer from

williamsburg and i the question i have is sicily touchstone is now one of the find out what your opinion is about the political consider that went into the into this the ivus going forward how much did did lincoln's depend upon quote unquote his political in order to unite the country and bring into into the fight the democrats that are living the north. how much did that affect their ability to win the war that's a that's a complex question to unravel obviously the political generals serve an important function because when you have armies of citizens that are professional soldiers they respond much better to citizens who they recognize as public figures rather than martinet. regular point trained officers. so the generals have an important function in that regard. we're going to hear from zach fried tomorrow.

his book makes a really compelling case that it was actually sort of junior officers and even sort of higher ranking ncos that most visibly influenced the politics of the men in the ranks. and they tended to be young republicans. and so you see this transition over the war. the army's actually becoming more republican, even though there's democratic opposition on the home front. but the armies themselves become kind of more republican bodies on the political sort of scene. lincoln spends 1863 as frustrated as he's in 1861. in 1862, that every single one of his western generals achieving victories and nobody because his eastern keep losing to robert e lee or failing to consolidate their victories against lee, as meade does at gettysburg and. lincoln knows that public opinion is so focused on virginia. and what's going on with lee's army that it doesn't matter. the grant's everywhere he sets foot in terms of the politics and so one of lincoln's big calculations in 1863 is does bringing grant to to take

command of all of the and then him eventually joining meade's army to fight against lee is that the key to the political question is how do i start achieving victories in virginia? because that lincoln knows politically that matters more than all of the victories in the theater. and that's why so many of us get so frustrated, because we love the western theater. and oftentimes it doesn't get as much attention because. the battles don't have the social political economic ramifications. the war is won in the west. right. but all attention is focused on the east. it's a lot of that work out in the west lincoln in 1863 politically is still puzzled through that problem. he's puzzling through the question of how do i get people to appreciate what has done, which is essentially capture, you know, thousands of miles of confederate territory and no one seems to have noticed and. lincoln is banging his head against a wall, trying to to figure out how to turn this into a positive political advantage in terms of running the next year for president.

excellent. so i want to just give you each the opportunity. we'll start burke and work our way down as listened to tonight's discussion. we've listened to our presentation since earlier today what sort of final thought would you like to send folks out the door with. do we have any new braxton bragg fans? yes. not. we're all going to come out with unibrow tomorrow. i think that. you know, the war is a progression of things as as time goes from year to year and and the war evolves in different ways. 1863 is obviously important in a lot ways, and that's just what i've been thinking about is, you know, the military things that happen that, you know, that coincide with the political and social changes that are happening, the is evolving and, you know, the unions penetrate even more confederate territory capturing permanently holding it those those things going to be

irreversible if the confederate stop it and they can't and don't and these that we've talked about the emergence sherman and grant to greater and greater positions and the ability to influence things. all these things are building. so that's that's what i'm thinking about. i think just quickly, sort of my main takeaway is the question my students always ask me in a civil and my civil war class, they say, why do you spend so much time talking to us about military issues, tactics battles, what goes on? what, 1863 really shows us is that what happens the battlefield is directly correlated to what's on the home front and what is happening politically, economically, international and so paying attention to these battles and campaigns and then paying attention to way the people responded to them allows us to chart investment in the war morale on the home front. all these questions. and so just keeping in 1863 is really the crucible for this is that these campaigns are going determine attitudes and outcomes for the remainder of the war.

it's the pivot it's the hinge of the war. new issues are introduced. and so we have to pay attention to all of those things in conversation. 1863, i think, really shows us that clearly for the first time in the war. yeah, think the whole emancipation thing is the soldiers really start viewing differently because they see it takes a long time for it to turn out. and a lot of those guys, especially in the union army are against emancipation. we have whole officers, especially from border states, slave owning border states, that are leaving the army. now, the enlisted men can't that they signed up for three years. but the officers can submit the resignations but it a long time for these guys to see that this is a good thing for them if they're going to win the war. not that they're going to see blacks and whites as equal, but they see that the end of slavery is going to them win the war sooner. and that just takes a long time to work out in the process. but 1863 is really when you start seeing this churning

through. a second, all the points that have been made, i'll simply say the hinge of the war. i want to develop that little bit further because this is the year where the united states attains some strategic supremacy in the war and sets up 1864 campaigns. doesn't mean the war is over by any stretch of the imagination. does that even mean it's the beginning of the end? but this is the the confederacy is dealt a body blow in the summer of 1863 and vicksburg, tullahoma, gettysburg and port hudson for, which it never fully recovers. and so from a military standpoint, important, we talked about emancipation people forget that the emancipation proclamation recited the front lines of january one 1863 from that point forward, whenever the union armies would advance, there would be armies of liberation and so that means that all this miles that are open to unionize the patient from that point forward brings freedom to thousands upon thousands upon thousands of

people. and the last thing i will come back to that those numbers this is not cheap by any stretch of the imagination that 140,000 that i cited earlier in that seven months from may one to november 30th, 1863, that's the same as the approximate u.s. casualties. three years of the korean war from june 25th, 1952, the armistice. so whenever forget that human cost. and that's a human cost that affects everybody just the point about the home front, every community north or south is affected by that number to some degree. some communities considerably more first one. so gettysburg practically depopulated the military of two counties in minnesota with that loss that they had. okay. so that's scars communities that defines communities and, defines a nation. and sears those does it's no accident to me that some of the first battlefields preserve in this country were chickamauga

and vicksburg, gettysburg and then you had a few others in there as well. that illustrates to me how important words of that generation to those and to that and to nation. and in that and to me puts an exclamation point on the importance of this year and why it matters. and so now i'm going to turn it over to vicksburg. i probably still have your thunder. but there you go. well, i was just sitting here thinking that this first week in july, obviously lee, you know, i mentioned you couldn't win a presidential caucus or nomination in in iowa or new hampshire. you can't win opinion in april or may. well, that first week in july. that's your, you know your super tuesday in a presidential primary or that's the dog days of august and and down the stretch in a baseball season. so um, i would, i would suck at that. but my big takeaway moving from

the past to the present, just what a class act emerging civil war is and what chris and the gang has done and put it on a conference like this and all you folks, it's it's highly impressed. it's a pleasure to be here and to be a part of it. and in kudos. well done. keep it up. thanks to.