♪ ♪ >> this year booktv marks 25 years of shining a spot light on leading nonfiction authors and their books. with talks from more than 22,000 authors, nearly 900 cities and festivals visited, and 16,000 events. book tv is provided viewers with 92,000 hours of programming on the latest literary discussions on history. politics, and biographies. you can watch booktv every sunday on c-span2 or online at booktv.org. booktv, 25 years of television for serious readers. >> i got introduced to erika a few years ago quite a few years ago actually through mutual friends, and begin asking like what are you interested about writing what arere you studying? what is it like to be you?

basically that's usually how i start conversations. and so that conversation i got introduced a little bit to her scholarly work i was really interested in then bringing professor turner to a talk to the state of wisconsin so i invited her to be in our leadership series to the state of wisconsin. and the conversation was -- very engaging, very relevant to the time a couple of years ago ande to relevant to today. and also folks really resonated to the content, to the scholarly questions. and to your findings. so i want to invite you to the space to talk a little bit about you and to share the con terks of your book. thank you so much. >> yes please applause. [applause]

>> thanks so much thank you everyone for being here. i see colleagues and former students, andol neighbors and friends, and children that belong to me. so it is really fun to have all of you here in one room. [laughter]r] as a nondimension currently associate professor at the university of wisconsin where i teach courses on education policy and politics. and my research over the last 15 years i've looked at how school district leaders have responded to increasing diverse taken inequality in schools. and this work has culminated in book that we're talking about today suddenly diverse. the root of this project which was my dissertation at u.c. berkeley lines for equity and education and question about why people who profess to believe in equity then act in ways that undermine that proported conviction. perhaps this was inevitable i come from a black and chinese american family urban development were regular topics in car rides and dinner time conversation.

i began thinking about equity and schooling when i was about ten i years old -- just like that middle child over there, and poised to enter middle school in the late 1980s in san francisco. i was the assigned to attend a very sought-after school on the other side of town it was a school my mother attended 30 years earlier. but when she visited -- at the time she found that it was highly tracked with all of the black students in the lower trackr classes located in the schoolla basement. the other, the district at that time was under a court order to schools and low performing schools and in particular one in the mission district predominantly mexico central neighborhood underserved now had a highly skilled staff with a social justice mission and culturally relevant curriculum but raised for me a new question. why had it taken to lawsuit to

achieve this in a proportedly liberal place and equity questions exist and this resurfaced after i attended college i became a middle school teacher, traveled with my husband and returned to the bay area to attend graduates school. i startedded working with a professor who was studying decision making and -- central district offices, and i've been following discussions about expanding bilingual education in san francisco with a multiracial and multiethnic student population. i got really interested in what were motivations about how the schools try to serve diverse student bodies, but then love called in wisconsin and i started looking forrt a new project indeed like the multiracial multiethnic san francisco that i grew up in, districts across the country were becoming more diverse. in central cities in diversifying suburbs and two cities that i call mill town and

fairview not their real names. local newspapers there heralded news more kids of color and greater poverty. now, the presence of people of color was not new in 2008 and either of these cities. indeed in wisconsin indigenous people have been here since time in memorial. but to many in leadership positions in these predominantly white and middle class communities it felt suddenly diverse and i wanted to know more m about how school district leaders were making sense of and responding to these new conditions in their schools why were they responding in particular ways?on to find out i started studying fairview and mill town miltown wass a working class traditionally manufacturing based with constant city with a conservative political orientationer in anti-immigrant politics so when i went to mill town, for example, they had been kind of transitioning out of well-paying -- manufacturing jobs they're being bought those corporations already bought up by global

conglomerates and some people were getting higher paid manufacturing jobs and others were being filtered into newly deunionized food processing work which was very dangerous and also was part of what brought immigrant and then recruited immigrant labor for them. but that was also placed then that generated anti-immigrant laws so ordinances in the local area. this was a district of about 20,000 students in fairview and contract it was a similarly sized but relatively well resource community with more middle class population. and our reputation for liberal politics espousing volumes of equity and inclusion. for example, that city ordinance since thean 1960s that -- that was to guarantee a nondiscrimination in city services along lines of race, class gender, et cetera. starting in 2008, i began interviewing people in fairview and mill town and including 37

school districts superintendents, assistant superintendent, central office school board members and the like. i alsoan interviewed people from across communities there including civic leads, leaders of color and some school sites. i attended about 107 hours, probably a little bit more of meetings, mainly school board meetings but also public meetings, andc meetings within these central offices of these school systems. andth took a lot of notes -- i ultimately collected over 270 documents and later i analyzed those as well and that was things like newspaper reports local community reports, blog posts thatts were being generatd in these places at the time. what i learned actually really surprised me -- you would expect that these two different places would do differentld things and in respoe to -- a similar demographic change. yet, they basically both come to a similar response. so in leaders in both districts we're basically adopting business like practices as a

means to respond to their increasing racial and ethnic diversity and increasing inequality many their systems. as a way to illustrate this idea i would like to share if you've seen i observed in mill town more working class traditionally manufacturing based and conservative school district.oo so i'll read from the book a little bit. it was about 8 p.m. in mill tongue just a few days before thanksgiving, 2009. and rich hanes was about to give the last principal report of the evening. a e school board member introdud him as a veteran of one trimester of edgar elementary rich was a principal at the school for only few months, in fact, only a principal for few months. board member seemed eager to hear how things were going rich said i'm proud to be a new member of edgar elementary i'm the not alone one challenge is we have 18 new staff at edgar. high socioeconomic status disadvantage and we have a transient population. harriet the board president

asked him about this transyen city, he responded we probably average two to three students a week. at the end of the year there are probably 20 to 30% turnover, transients are transyen city terms immediate in the district used to talk about maybe a student transfer in and out of the schools often due to housing instability, racism, poverty and precaretyve at its roots it wast just principal's change but all presented to the school board about similar challenges. but rich at least said that his goal for the year was getting better at using data. we have to have clear learning targets. that is my passion as we're starting to analyze our goals we're getting better at that. he noted -- data shows high numbers of students and special education, and he called these brutal facts. but he saw some hope in that data. rich noted that reading test scores for latina students and students identified as english learners had been improving each year. they already started in a hole

each year we're closing gap now we need to figure out what we're doing and bring this to the rest of our populations. rich explained that he applied for supplemental graduate to do this work. the board stayed another hour, there were student council reports to a hear a budgets strategy to stress and expected two to eight million dollar deficit ate report that was schl finance ninth worse in the country and asked to show meetings over 25 dollars and school board members wished each other a j happy thanksgiving and headed out into the night and pleased. so what had just happened? i mean my mind was like exploding at this moment. but it was also mundane another school board meeting that was happening. well the principal then had just recounted serious poverty in enormous turnover in their -- this transient of low income children of color in their schools. they hinted at a bevy of

challenges including funding teacher turnover unmet needs, and the school board discussion at the end of the night spoke to large and ongoing budget deficits state government that wasnt attempting to exert greatr control over the school systems, making it harder for them to do their work. hearing the situation, as i said for rich made me disturbed, but they had left feeling at seemed pretty good about things. i saw them -- they sawem the meeting as making progress against educational inequity. theyey like many people there in elsewhere saw what was happening as eliminating achievement gap. all over milltown school board members were doing something similar to what i just -- kind of described they were adopting performance monitoring approaches, that sought to collectec and monitor, and that report economic achievement data to address challenges they were

facing. they were examining this through new professional development that rated teachers or set goals based on standardized data and looking at school base data as groups in the school and this was really common -- i don't know probably a teacher that hasn't done something at this point in time so they were adopting kind of strategies as well as ones like marketing diversity and developing schools like international baccalaureate to meet customer demanding. so but it wasn't just milltown fairview relatively well resourced community with the middle class population and the liberal -- values they were doing something remarkably similar. include evaluations of strategical district programs reports, of the state of the district and all sorts of new assessments. there were also planning to market their diversity. what was happening in fairview and milltown represents a broader phenomenon that is happening in school districts

across theic country inspiring these business -- inspired means of operating schools and viewing these efforts as i think,e oddly, new more effective means of diversing inequalityth in their schools i call this broader phenomenon race evasive managerialism. this is a way of leading public institutions like public schools -- that takes its cue from business. specifically corporate and entrepreneurial business model so you might think about previous -- schools being modeled on a factory model right it's a business -- you can see how business becomes attractive to people in schools but in this -- this case or in this kind of iteration it is corporate and entrepreneurial models in particular things like generic quantitative measurement of outcomes for decision making as well as competition and marketing as means for guiding organizations.

and these approaches again, are common across -- across different districts not just these two. but i'm going to argue that and others have pointed out these kinds ofe approaches when they o not address the fact that they exist within an already and unequal society or not explicit designed to address that those approaches can allow inequities to persist and may amplify them. this is consistent with the common ways people think about racism today. sometimes called what people have called a color blind racism. so when you think about how most people think about racism today they define is as views of extreme individuals rather than as a widely embedded social or economic orr political system. they think of racism as something that happened in the past -- and instead racial inequality is positive as a result or the

result of racial inequality are a result of individuals or groups deficiencies. so while enduring systemic racism, is often minimized, people become invested in seeming like they're not racist. and i think the best example of this is donald trump. donald trump has notably said he's the least racist person alive. even as he has significantly eroded rights and safety of people of color, disabled people, people living in poverty, immigrants through his words and actions. organizations and individuals do something similar, though, they latch on to what others have called official antiracism notions like inclusion of diverse groups, or eliminating achievement gaps that are framed as antiracism. but giving their -- so okay moment sorry.

.... to find out i traced the in each of these two apdistricts. i found these kinds of approaches the performance monitoring or the marketing and trying to attract new customers emerged as district leaders try to navigate what were uncritically untenable situations. especially you had a large population of students of color or low-income students. they usually try to do this without confronting inequalities

in their system. that routes we some kind sometimes called the gap. the face a lotot of challenges including the demographics and growing inequality. remember this was 2008 it was the great recession. not only were many people out of jobs arego financially precarios but state governments were ailing and part of the response so that was to cut budgets within schools as well. but in addition to that they were facing pressures from accountability systems. the one in place of that time was their child left behind an open enrollment school choice policy but accountability they would say the not raising test scores for each of the groups within your school system the more diverse you are the more groups you have each the bar is raising. if in three years your schools are not achieving those targets they get increasingly serious

sanctions including eventually being turned over reconstituted. so this is one pressure. another one is open enrollment which is a form of choice like we had in wisconsin. it operates similarly makes the market the school essentially in wisconsin if you can transport your child to different district you can stay in your home but can send them out of district. when you do that the money from the district it's transferred to the receiving district pretty wisconsin we had kind of a safeguard on that but that raised. at the time of this the wholes safeguard us when to come off on that as many students as wanted to go. in lakeview i'm sorry in fairview they tried to address this through a desegregation plan. but with the supreme court decision, parent involvement committee schools they began to

feel that would be endangered and they could no longer rely upon the is a way to stop this concern about access. so they wanted to deal with all these challenges but they wanted to do it without making people mad. and a particularly they are being asked to do more for less. under these conditions originally kind of early 2000's mid to thousands they tried to make somewhat deeper changes to the school. they put into place new training programs for teachers. on that kind of thing but they soon found resistance from predominantly white privilege families are from there predominantly white teachers who were concerned about those changes and raised objections. over time the district leaders emerged on raise the managerial approaches that appeared to help

them their equity gains in these difficult conditions. but without upsetting teachers in these families. they did not want to upset them notth because they thought they were right in fact they're very critical of them but i thought both groups were racist. they also felt their schools had to respond because of the fiscal and political support the schools relied upon from the constituencies. so, and adopting the managerial approaches instead this is how they tried to navigate through this kind of muddy water. let me see. district leaders viewed these approaches as a way to address in an equity while garnering and maintaining support for public uschools. but i want to ultimately suggest they didn't. that manager undermines equity

it also undermines public school. let me speak to the racism first. first you can think of these kinds of approaches using language of diversity reducing achievement gap. the ways to justify policies that perpetuate an equity. they lead to the existing system in place. they also distract from other things that they could have been doing with their time and resources. things that might have made a bigger difference in student life. then perhaps most importantly under this approach racial equity comes to mean raising test scores it comes to be understood as -- marketing comes to be seen as marketing diversity for bookkeeping public schools afloat rather than another approach. in other words an equity is reframed as equity, racismo reframed as antiracism. but there are also undermining public schools. so i would argue that they are doing this in a couple ways. first managerial policies follow

efficiency and customer service rather than a public service or equity. but they also, move to these concerns reflect their own centering of the concerns and educational visions of theirrs predominantly white constituents the teachers and the families.it and moreover and undermined the racial equity as i would say they were doing, they also undermine the legitimacy of public schools because as much as they are already systemically organized in ways that perpetuate inequality there also very much legitimized as places that should do just the opposite that should be how we think of addressing an equity in the system. to underminein that is also to undermine public schools. a final story i think will help make this clear. the weight these kind of approaches could undermine equity and democracy in schoolsc so a respected professional actor in fairview, rogelio

garcia that was known for a advocate for the latino communities i often saw him rushing into political community meetings after work so wearing a sport coat and tie or a sweater vest. for years rogelio advocacy group he'd worked with have been involved along with other parents, nonprofit leaders andin local advocates getting the arey school districts to pay attention to the growing student population in the midst of latino students. many of whom but not all of whom were immigrants. in particular is involved with efforts to promote bilingual education for spanish-speaking youth in fairview county. he was recalled the years in a tag at the first dual language immersion bilingual program approved in the district. now the situation was different that with increased demand for foreign language instruction for monolingual ghost white families in the district desired to halt white flights, a school board decision takes language

bilingual programs to fairview schools came pretty easily. rogelio said unfortunately you have heard it before. reflecting back on the earlier decision to expand the program, his wife turned oh my gosh, 50% the students in the district are 50% of coat we have to stop the white flight. he chuckled but continued seriously. there has always been a tension that we do not want to really scare the majority communities but the other side he is said we need to recognize this new demographic of kids is entitled to a good education. we have practices that can help them. rogelio recognize fairview district leaders hope to use dual immersion programs to retract to retain predominately white middle-class families to eifairview. sparta their effort to market the school as a positively diverse place. it was in his motivation but he

saw there were some strategic benefits to his cause. we actually leverage the voice of those who do a traditionally or have traditionally a had a voice into giving us an opportunity to have a voice. it was unfortunate that it had to happen that would buy the school board decision was made to expand dual immersion not because we asked them but because they asked them. and the influence of white families much more dual language emergent programs which haved influence over school board members who did not want to scare the majority community. however he accepted the unresponsiveness was part of the racial politics involved in securing these programs. he hoped and expected they would develop bilingualism, reinforcing student cultures and greater access to content in schools is what they suggest happen.

interest owed something good bringing together different strands of desires. value or respond to the desire for white middle-class families as and valued customer only expanding the program when itst was viewed as a model of interest to them. better educational programs spanish dominant children they theredesirable for whiteor fami. an unequal voice and equitable education and fairview. upbeat and happy as he was he knew it. as one of the first book lanes critical analyses of policymaking hope this book diverts helps us recognize and

understand raised in inequality is very central to how we make decisions and school districts. and to how we think criticallyk about the directions forward, thank you. [applause] >> that was a phenomenal introduction about you, and the navigation of learning the data. you made a point to highlight the stories as a place of data and then draw conclusions and analysis. you got deep into the analysis part. i want to start this conversation with you, eric,

lifting up the provocative title of suddenly diverse. and for people of color that is not what we would describe the. [laughter] yet thewe phenomena are where al this people came from? did they just move here? where did they live? we don't know who they are. it is the phenomena i see, i have definite experience and is he that rubs the state. could you talk to us about the title i'm going to lift up the term and congruency of experiences of people of color. as it relates the title of the book.st

quick sink in for the question. you could also chime in with what you see as a school board member and other educator and other positions. i think i told her this, my editor one of the book tv called suddenly diverse. i stopped suddenly diverse as some of the points i try to make in the book. let me explain it.ck basically if you look back and the histories are different and distinct. there also interesting things. having wasn't really paid attention too. and also until accountabilities policy pressures made them pay attention. there been committees of color in both places for a long time. district leaders who were predominantly white or not from

these communities. we didn't pay attention to what we didn't know. when were they talk about this within the media the way students are being underserved. in fairview specifically african-american part of it speaks to who is in charge of the schools. part of it is how demographic changes happening in the u.s.? they've been a predominant white country in these places they were probably white cities. because of birthweight and movement in the school boat to see some of the growth or if you were not associated with the school you might not know about it. i'm a general population. >> it's important because it who

votes and who agrees to pay more homoney for school is different than he was being served, right? that's what the districts need. they need those who can vote and pay property taxes to continue to do so. but these inequities were not new. it's telling they did think it was diverse. there is a second partud of the study a question though. >> now, i have other questions for what you just shared. and you are a sharing of parts of the book and just now, you mentioned the word majority. which is a mathematical analysis but we are talking 51%. but that's really not what we are talking about. we are not talking about numbers necessarily. we are talking about influence.

which is used speak to -- in acute reference bodies of work of the hoarding and the influence of white families that tended to be largely ucpredominately connected to the political aspect of education. so all of it is a political. [laughter] that happens all theim time anytime superintendent schoolt board member said that all the time. that's why it is a concern for them. and i think -- a good question whether s it's a real concern ty should have are not for number of reasons.

that was a power being wielded. and i think -- i like to think it not so much about i don't agree with the notion of white flight as much. what it signals is who has power. and that is where we should be paying attention. because it could be privileged families that are people of color too. and there is a history of that. i really remember howe our schol district is set up and it's a case for both of these places. you have a city district gets is surrounded by other districts.re each of those has its own government structure but more importantly. therefore how much money is available to the school how much property wealth there is in that place when it moved to a different place they also may be

affecting property wealth in different places but sometimes is more important than housing prices is corporate taxation. ito think that is important to distinguish two. the notion of white flight is not the thing i want. and the idea that's convenient for district leaders they argue against it. but what is a system that in enables them to wield their power that way and get what they want? or tobl families of color it's also not available to them who isusually not representing for the school board members talk all the time when a seat so and so the grocery neighbors are getting on my case about this, who are they living next to? who did they know it's in the grocery store? it's not equally across.

>> wow. okay we are going to have to be here all day you all because this is a lot. i really appreciate i'm going to scott schmidt last comment and take us to doing the right thing. which she mentioned here, you mentioned in the book and the leadership interview are also talking withal that. one of the things when i was in the school board and my colleagues would say the community to this the community once that i would raise my hand and say which community are we talking about? who are we talking about? if we are talking about your, community white middle-class, upper middle-class working in corporate, if you are talk about your community then i can understand your concerns of your community because that is not what people having concerns in my community.

i have recently come this is the real story you all. i have recently heard their concern about getting sued. and when i hear about that was connected to the white flights i hear about white people white people suing the district there what i don't hear is the fear of a brown, black, indigenous families in the organizations they are associated suing and putting pressure on accountability. in fact, so much so when we see brown and black families leaving, we criminalize that. please say how dare you, black family go take your kid to a private school? how do you brown and black family take your child and create your own school, how dare you do that, right? i want to stitch this conversation.

i do believe the majority of educators have that in their mind and in their hearts. they do want to do the right thing. it's in the racialized context of their and racial equity with then the structures. the ability to change those structures or the influence the congruency's of influence of changing those structures. and how little we see the change when all of the organization is still the same and all we are doing is going to look at the data. were going to ask for more data we are going to ask folks into another survey and whatnot.w can you talk to us a little bit about how you navigated that and specifically as a parent of brown and black children?

easy question. maybe if you looking at data is really, really commont and i'm not against that. my job is to look at evidence and research.st most the people are at look at a standardized test data and math and reading. learning on particular tested data what students know or don't know. it's limited it does not tight what you should do instead. and that is the point about managerial approaches. there is no professional educational knowledge i mean you could have that but it's not required. it's also sometimes very attractive to administrators. because you don't -- it can give

you a role even if you don't know anything about education.mo once out just in madison we see more and more testing in that kind of thing. i really feel conflicted about it because on that one hand it's kind of a waste of time and that is my take away around a lot of the performance monitoring as certain amount of it that is useful but most of my people get that information they don't actually do anything different. even if they did something different on what basis? the data does not tell you what to do. it got our kids are taking all these tests and could be learningld other things. they could be learning something rather than how to take a test. but it is not that particular teachers default the teachers may also object to it. on these the pressures coming down so in some ways but the

district leaders are also facing. we try to think about is what is the bigger picture here be on this a particular testing day or this kind of thing. and what is it that i want? in these districts for example what they would do is the suburban districts were also using population and a student population. but they were doing as a started advertising to get students to come from milltown into the suburban districts so it was a market. that's what the policy allowed for it facilitated that more so than art existed. then they would offer your kids could take talented classes. everybody in prairie town could be gifted and talented. that was their way to get families there and it was a calculation. is that we really care about and want for what our kids learn?

and for meat that's what guides it. not just my own children with thinking more broadly about public education, why i believe in it. why i study it because it's more about our society and the kind' of place we want to be i am not thinking as much and also my children you all do very wellin school and i am proud of you and you read a lot. i think also escorts are not how it measure what's a good school. now with my own children areof doing well but more broadly are they learning to be good people and citizens? do they know about histories they can understand what's happening in the world today and other things as well but. >> and somewhat controversial io. >> she would not think. in 2023. i want us to move to the race

evasiveness terminology view for different scholars talk about that they don't understand the historical institutional context of that terminology. it is parallel to a managerial business, corporate framework. the marketing, the outcomes. what i find to be interesting particular to your last comment around but we know that data but were not changing anything because corporate world they know the data they will do things otherwise they become irrelevant. in fact short of the most common questions i got the two times iran for office it was what are

you going to do about voucher schools? and i said i'm not going to do anything about voucher schools and not a state legislator. what i want to do about the schools to ensure our brown, black, families don't leave and no other child leaves the school district is to make the school district better for everyone. but that is not what is happening. we have that data even a majority brown, black school district like madison is, the decisions or not they are. can you talk to us a little bit about the business model? what was inga your finding? how are you navigating that and how are leaders navigated that? because part of the business model is the humanization of people. including the educators. >> there is a chapter that's not written it's kind of written but not in the book. because it had to be published.

there were people who really in the central offices that school leaders in different places, teachers, it was not a policy but they are really trying to have it families have a voice. especially families of color or marginalize families have a voice in the way things are done. the managerial approach puts the decision-making power in the hands of the manager who is not a professional educator or does not have to be one. and even a family with a child with a stake in it. given the talk about the book i guess it was yesterday and michigan to educational researchers that makes educational researchers are people in the department of the federal government as we benefit. because that is our job but we can get grants it's not what i

do but in the area. as a part of what is driving it since there are people whose jobs it is being a part of that. given that recognize the expertise of other actors including teachers and families as a way that sort of challenges that. there was that in place. if you are always trying to do what's most efficient, how to raise test scores the fastest or track them withex customers thee will always reinforce existing inequality. it's the fastest way to raise test scores is to attract kids who have higher scores. they do not try to influence their schools. that approach will ever get use

there. >> wow okay. when time to get too deep into that. i ask one more question while in asking that question i invitent you to think about what question you want to ask.s i will ask it not to wpontificate. we are going to stick to the question. i was givenen permission to kiny enter interrupt you and i will use that. eric what is your vision for educational equity in the state of wisconsin? thank you so much ralph to me that question. [laughter] >> we have two minutes. that the data for a long time ago. had a few children.

among the things happening trump had been elected. we had no child left behind. what a more flexible system not chance to change people in schools at all. so things like that were happening. there is also a lot more attention to especially after coded. but it did not start then with organizing people the movement for black lives. where did those people have to do they wanted a different system. they have to think really differently about what that looks like. and thinkhe about what you actually going for? this really great ideas and

those movements about how things could look otherwise. for example i think community care is a great idea were breached thinking in part will be are trying to achieve. in some other work with a colleague we've been kind of thinking about the idea of integration which is prominent especially in fairview as a way to achieve equity before the managerial approach. that optimist moving kids around and practice in achieving resources as you were mentioning before be on the numbers or the resources what do schools offer? whose knowledge is valued? what kindin of learning to be wt to have? that has to part of what we think about what educational equity is. whose cultures are a valued and not one is valued over others .but there's equal status according to those. if there were you would see

parents of all different groups would be welcomed into schools and seeing that contributing to their education. you'd see the curriculum itself would reflect back. right now largely a dozen still. the other thing you would see as the participation w piece of the kids education look like. everyone had a stake in that way which is all of us would have equal power to affect what that looks like. none of them are actually are still in theirhe offices another five years unless everyone is gone. when they let me in again? no. p ms. thinking about how parents is organized. they ultimately have it at stake. i'm having things changed.

others have a lot of stake in keeping at the same. >> that is an amazing way to wrap up. to wrap up the conversation we are having an transition to in o questions from folks around who has the energy? especially we think about folks leaving the buildings, leaving the district and the profession aaltogether. i will sayg this one thing as a woman of color working for the state of wisconsin i've been working for the state for six years and i'm one of the veteran women of color. and that is scary. six year is one administration, right? okay who is ready to ask their question i will repeat the question, go ahead. there is a microphone. >> we are ready here.

thank you. [inaudible] >> we are going to turn the microphone on. the question was around the voucher schools. is it a bad policy? >> it depends are your goals are for schools. i think ifey your goals are to siphon money for public schooling into private hands back to the wealthy from the states. it is a street segregating factor. the death of a t public schools should be a great place if you're interested in that to look more about. one of my points is vouchers is that in the evidence is abysmal about the education just on the

basis i don't think it's like a good use of money for voucher schools. but you are taking money -- make most of the people wisconsin already had their child either never had their children are arty have their children inia private school so it's subsidizing private school. in the idea early on was that it would be used to help low income kids. that's really not how it works now. i think there are other mechanisms that don't work that differently. the one and pointing to in the bookpe is around interdistrict open enrollment. especially with the virtual schools now you can essentially send your child to any other school district for some of the districts especially those that need funds have started these virtual schools. on the whole evidence for students learning anything is abysmal very part of that might

be who chooses to send their child to virtual school because it may be the school is arty noy not working for that kid. but in general, really bad response rate. and so it's kind of like perceived as a way to make money for certain districts. but kids don't get an education. this then can take a wait funds for the district you might need it more. >> do have time for a more for e question? one more question. because i can be here all day, you all. he did not want to do that. sorry. i was trying to help you out. [inaudible]. >> you mentioned your title for the book. i would like to hear more about your title why you chose that one? you cannot put to the book?

>> i'm horrible at titles and i didn't have a good alternative was partly why i had to go with it. this is a person who is good at their job and they know it they are doing and i can explain it. i did not have a good alternative but i was uncomfortable putting it out there but so much of what i'm writing about is it's important how we talk about things. many people will never read this book. most people will never read it. so i did not want to put out this idea that these were diverse which is not actually what i think. i spendch at least a chapter, a good part of a chapter explaining how to get the diversity. it's not just people coming from chicago which is often how the story was told in these two places. but really about global movement of people to the united states more broadly because it's happening. it's about changing age cohorts but giving birth et cetera. it is -- there's other things economic changes it's like people thought about it often is

pork people are coming here but it was the great recession. and also wisconsin has been a strong covid middle-class family jobs. and at that moment were bought up by conglomerates and then unionized does good paying jobs were no longer that used to be like six out of the top 10 middle-class communities they have majority middle-class in wisconsin. and that is not true anymore. it's not justy, a wisconsin stoy it's particular he evident here. bothe things people i thinking about is those people comingse here as opposed to the broader trends and processes that were underneath that. and work about individual families or kids. i meet individuals and kids were coming and experiencing this. though i worried that. i spent quite a bit of time

critiquing the notion of diversity as a way to think about what's happening and it's the focus of what we need versus equity or justice. but nowth this much more critiqe about their there could be to the notion to question that. the argument is somewhat different. it does attract people contributes help policy acknowledge. contribute to how we think about the proms of equity. one of the problems we are actually trying to address? because if we get those wrong we don't know how to move forward in the right way. >> that is incredible. i want to wrap our time with the

challenging the folks here and the folks listen to the recording to say were title people with influence in people with power is us. and so please do purchase five -- 10 copies. [laughter] of this book. and share c with your colleague. share with parents, stare at the school district in madison or wherever you grew up. or districts across the state are hurting financially and could really benefit from this incredible donation. lastly i want to thank the public library for the organizers of the volunteers, the leadership here that there wisconsin book festival. to the amazing media crew that is here. to allve of you that came to jon this amazing conversation. and thank you tio professor erir eric turner for writing this book. for your courage with this book and then being here with us.

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