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wealthy corporation newark government should step in to restore justice to you and your fellow citizens. that is what this hearing is about. will government step up provide physical emotional and healt security as a result of this? just as if it were a military threat to our country.as got to spend the side of folks like you and your neighbors. i am very grateful to you. i feel vh/2>6v

safety. thank you for the question. the business model asision. the safety issues are not just a threat to communities they are a threat to t workers and that used palestinian disaster to provide proper equipment to the workers whop the derailment site. do you agree they should have the ability to collectively stop work when conditions threaten their health and safety consistent with a federal

railroad safety act? >> to stop any and all work whenever there safety is in danger except as it stands right now we will be retaliated against. >> and why would you be retaliated against? >> because we don't have protections on that level se would expect to operate in a safe manner if they are concerned about the safety of their operations then i would expect to address that. they must be ready to stand in

solidarity i urge my colleagues to join with me. thank you madam chair. >> thank you, senator >> appreciate your time. the train accidents in general it's trending upwards. is that true? >> the rate is the mainline track rates are going down. >> due to the this happened due to one of these derailments? do you remember the

recommendations at the time for the notification of first responders? >> yes sir. >> we have several recommendations including providing the real-time information to emergency responders and they were part of emergency planning with railroads. >> how long ago did you make that recommendation? >> 2013 was of the reasons by the way i know that you have some disagreements about theances necessary for the detectors and so forth but could you commit to supporting the standard for the hot bearing detes if not specific limits, could you submit to get

the limits right view? >> yes, senator. i appreciate your leadership and senator brown's leadership for there's a number of provisions in your bill which we support and it does include the wayside protectors. we are not sure what the correct spacing is. it could be ten 15r seven. i would support using science and research and whatever is the right number we would not matter. would you commit to supporting the notification requirements as we do in the bill? >> for the community to rush to the scene and my appreciation for that is we l

facility in ohio this week and we have over 401st responders t including the chief and four of his commanders. the industry claims the visual inspections are useless when it to the journal bearings. do you believe that this is true? >> thank you for the question. i believe the visual inspection is one of the most important aspects of inspecting a railcar and also smile as well. >> that is correct. can you inspect adequately in 30 seconds, any of your workers? >> absolutely not. i would say it would take three minutes oronger. to go to mr. jeffries in the

minute that i have remaining in regards to the opposition to the tougher inspections increased time doesn't necessarily correlate to increase safety and i think that is a fair argument to make. mr. whitaker said three minutes. ond be mandating 20 minute inspections. businesses can comply. a 32nd minimum and inspection time? >> i can't tell you what the right time is. i can we are addressing issues and if there is a systemic or series of cases where malfunctioning equipment isn't, we need to address that and whether that's because there's not enough time allowed because there is not appropriate training because of another need to address that. do you think we h mr. whitaker it is enough time to inspect a railway or car, do you think 30 seconds is to do an inspection and would

you support that as a mandatory requirement? >> not to be in the technical expert it doesn't seem like a do. >> i appreciate that. i am out of tim guess acting chairman yield. >> thank you senator vance. i think i'm next here. it is dividedtestified that this was a preventable action. do you agree? >> yes thank you for the question, senator. this industry -- >> what should have been done to prevent it? >> we have to look at every accident as if it were preventable, and in this case we know that the do and we thank them for that. we know the wayside detectors

were operating as designed, and we know thatrack defects. we know that the chair was focused on a wheel bearing on a privately owned car that no railroad owns and so improvements in safety are going to require which includes car owners car builders and many of those components are included in the bill. >> i'm just thinking about how they would figure out what you just said. i'm ain charge of the tree and am i right or wrong? >> yes sir. >> then you said a privately built car somehow that exempted you from the respons inspection, the

assurance of the community. you are not saying that areou? >> sir, that was not my intent. my intent was a holistic approach -- >> it's your car you are responsible when the train starts and when the train comes into the terminal, correct? we can't point fingers at other people. it's your responsibility to be the community that a train will pass community safely. is that correct? >> yes sirs my responsibility. >> you said it was preventable.

whose responsibility was it to prevent it? >> in response to this derailment, they added wayside detectors in and around --ust get real here. whose responsibility is it to prevent this preventable accident from happening? at responsible for safety on our network and working with the entire industry to enhance safety. >> let me this. you reluctantly acknowledged that it is preventable and that it was your rnsib it. am i incorrect?

>> i am taking responsibility to enhance safety entire industry. >> it sounds like an obvious response. i'm taking responsibility. it's like to before executives come in here and if they go to charm school and they are told to take responsibility without taking responsibility. saying that it was the responsibility of norfolk southern, the company you lead, to prevent to have prevented this accident you acknowledge was preventable? >> senator, i think about safety each and every day and i've asked my team what we do -- >> i understand the business plan includes 7.5 billion stock buyback that's ongoing. do you believe it would be appropriate to suspend the

buyback program until all the assurances you are making to the committee and also the people palestinian about making this right that the buyback program should be suspended untilished what you've assured us and what you've been assured the people of east palestine that you would do? >> senator, we think about safety every day. we spend a billion dollars a year safety and have ongoing expenses about a billion dollars a year on safety and as a result, over time derailment's are down, hazardous material releases are down and injuries are down. we can always get better. suspending the buyback program. >> senator stock buybacks never the expense of safety. >> i take that about you will continue with your plan onhe

buyback. my time is expired. the chair recognizes senator thune. >> thank you mr. chair. first i want to offer my deepest sympathy to the residents as well as express my gratitude for the first responders, ntsbve and other officials that arrived and remained on scene since the derailment. railroads remain one of the safest ways to transport all types of freight and including hazardous material. however, it serves as a reminder of the committee's vigilance and that agencies and railroads faithfully implement requirements set in place by bipartisan fast act which was signed into law included inexpensive materials title much of it directly responsive to the tragic derailment with others like it. the title set forth new stringent requirements for the operation of the flammable trains and is scheduled for complete replacement and retrofit of all tank cars

carrying the reclaimable liquids the impact of future derailments. other safety requirements from the fast act were still pending regulatory agenda, something the committee needs to work to correct. i hope the discussion today remains solutions directly responsive to what we know about the underlining causes and avoid stock of imposing restricted requirements for the deficiency operations without proving data-driven benefits to safety. i want to thank you and your team for the leadership during the response and ongoing investigation into this unfortunate accident. in response to the requirement for the improvement act of 2008, the fra finalized the risk reduction program rulemaking in 2020 and subsequently approvedy all class one railroads. could you describe why a safety management system like the risk reduction program is so important to managing risk and improving safety?

>> it's critically important and we recommended in all modes ofe operators are proactively identifying risks and addressing them before tragedies occur. and then as well having adjusted safety culture so tha employees are emboldened to speak up when safety concerns arise. >> could you describe the implementation of the risk reduction program by railroads specifically how it complements existing rail safety regulations? >> thank you senator. asave all of these implies that have been approved by the fra and i think the basis of them is that each railroad because of the unique operating of the railroad takes a risk-based approach to addressing potential issues on its railroad and allows the opportunity to test out ways to address that and repeat and adjust as time goes by versus a more command and control one-size-fits-all so we are very early in the stage. i think there's an opportunity

to create a flexibleys much more nimble response to risk, but that story is yet to be told. i think there is opportunity there an railroad moving the program forward. >> mr. comstock, section 73 or two of the act required the pipeline and hazardous materials safety administration to finalize a rule requiring railrome emergency response information to first responders on trains because conveying hazardous materials. languished and issued. in the infrastructure investment and jobs act. it seems to me this type of information would have been steast palestine, would you agree? >> yes absolutely. >> and your testimony mentioned ntsb had several recommendations

related to emergency response notifications. it seems to me the agency has simply failed to prioritize the rule. have they provided a better answer as to why this has en delayed? >> i don't have the response on why that was delayed but i'm happy to provide it for the rerd if you could. it seems that is one of the issues that has come out of this that would have made mr. comstock's and hopefully something that could have been used to avoid and mitigate the damage from this terrible derailment. my time is expired -- >> can i add one thing? just to emphasize with the chief whatns level training for firefighters, there are different levels of training. firefighters receive awareness level training whichirefighters. at a minimum they should have operation level training which is a standard, so just for

consideration. >>kay. thank you. take that into consideration. >> thank you madam chair. i want to start by thanking all of our panelists for being here today. i chair the surface transportation subcommittee of the committee and i also want to thankip working to improve safety on the rail system. my first question though is for you. thank you for your willingness to testify here today. your presence before two different committees in congress this month but should certainly underline how seriously this body takes not only this incident but also how important it is for us to enhance the safety all across the over the past few months, there've been multiple class one railroad derailments in the state leading to cars hanging off of the se of the bridge in the city of detroit days long passenger delays and mere mass of hazmat incidents. michiganders are watching what

happened east of pakistan and are quietly demanding we do everything in our power tning again. i am committed to do that, and i appreciate that you also stated your commitment to safety in ny today and the conversation we had earlier as well. unfortunately, i received data yesterday that indicates nor folk southernng up to that commitment. a document i received that i have a right here before me shows internal servers of dozens of cars operating on trains, some of which are heading into my state of michigan that have gone over 5,000 miles without a class one brake inspection. that's thousands of miles above with administration regulations require. moreover the documents show that over 100 cars have gone over 10,000 miles, and in case 90,000 miles without a mechanical inspection. this is the data just from two trains, so i suspect we will

have data from others to look at. i would like to know do they have an internal standard as to how many miles before a traneeds a full mechanical inspection and how can you account for why the company appears to be running trains right now that have not been sufficiently inspected? >> senator thank you for that question. i am not aware of that data. i can assure you the policies are there to promote safety of the train operations and we do not allow the unsafs to operate. >> i would be happy to provide what we have here and appreciate your comments after the hearing. ..

since i became ceo in the middle of last year we have been on a hiring spree. we hired a near record number of employees last year. our pipeline of trainees is amongst the highest in our history right now. several weeks ago i reached out to the heads of her largest unions. and ask them for their assistance in helping norfolk southern enhanced our safety culture. >> thank you for your leadership in testimony today but you called out the importance of passing legislation that i have on staffing for adequat response will ensure the major hazmat

incident. as you know i've authored that in the legislation will come before the senate as early as next week. could you discuss how important it is for the legislation to pass and always grants out that they were to expire would be detrimental to small committees like yours? make it nearly responsible to respond to disasters. quickly fire service perspective i cannot think of encrypt mor important than those for my own departments important radios, to put a generator in the station that we could with the doors up onwith victoron that true sickle-cell fire department critically small ones rely on most rents every year but are critical without prints we could not do our job >> >> think it center peterson. >> think your chair thank you for being here today but mr. shaw thank you for coming to

our hearing two weeks ago. i appreciate that and i appreciate everybody being lefhere today. on the ordering of the cars it's 149 railcar rain on the 23rd car was carrying plastic pellets according to the report that lit up like a matchoverbearing we document the overheated wheelbarrow bearing for our five cars that's correct. and i don't high hazardous flammable train have more safety regulations. why would this not high hazard flammable train if it had hazardous materials as part of the 149 car train? quick senator, thank you for your question but i am not familiar with the entire makeup of the train. i know a highly hazardous d number

of highly hazardous cars in a thank you. maybe you could help with the question. >> yes the definition of a high hazard flammable train a last three flammable liquids only. and 20 carloads in a continuous and block which would be a unit trainer 35 carloads of class three flammable liquids. in a mixed freight train. that is not what was on this train. there were somequids a class of three defined flammable liquids but this train was on a high hazard flammable as on a high hazard growth rate for highly flammable that lit up the sky. is that something you would consider should be looked at as a safety yes set it up at the threshold of the 20 and 35 should be

eliminated. a broad a range broader range of hazmat should be in addition. quickly asked about the track we had a derailment a couple of years ago where the track as it got cold and then it melted and the track derailed there with hazardous material. how are we doing on track safety what kind of improvement might be in the future will look over this bill. is this something we should look at? i know is that the best materials to use? >> track oftracker defects remain the second biggest cause of train accidents. human factors is number one. train defects is number two.vrojects i am chock tracker defects i'm

sorry. track defects. there is think personnel are critical as well and technology should suppleme not supplant to break dexter jeffries are doing to address a question? >> yes on the main lines we did that at the lowest number of incident rate of incidents in 2022 but we are not at zero. it is important the chart reference technology that can be deployed autonomous track inspection tools can provide a significantly more intense and sensitive type of inspection the rail through the rope to identify anomalies before they become risks that can be attached to the back or front of the train for continuoustion that is not dehumanizing the network that is using technology to supplement in a much more effective wayd eye inspections that occur today. we believe we should be

encouraging, enhancing the pilot take on it the second leading cause an even and even louder. >> itemconfuses into the testimony. when it showed things are beginning to overheat does that information come directly to the engineer at the time? through whitaker yes. this particular accident i'd like to hear thoughts on that part. >> thank you for the question. technically there are two different types of defect detectors. one is a standard that gives audible to the crew over the radio. it will tell you the defect or no defect. >> would that be like an automated warning? >> that is correct it sounds an alarm and repeatsndable road tour three

times. the trending defect detector technology has likened out onto the style detector. we are not notified of a cart on the train. that goes to like a headquarters building. they monitor that car that is the big issue. they need to come they that to the train corals cruise so we are just going on the track request that would be a huge improvement if the communication may go directly to the engineers. the last q have, they say it never ask a question you don't want the answer to i know idea what a different brakingt train have made any difference? mr. shaw i'll let you into that.

>> chair was verylear the use of brakes would not have changed the result of this derailment too. >> 's and don't disagree with that of the panel? >> chair. >> are number 23 if art would have ensued, and i know is that vent burn. track. fra is doing modeling on that was probably a couple of cars we have more ohat as investigation moves forward. >> thank you •-middle-dot growth. >> think it madam chair rank member crews groups crews for holding today's hearing. illinois sits at the center of our nations rail network. all seven class one railroads run through our states including norfolk ser is enormous we

have 65 miles one house in florida which is shared by passenger trains. we see 1300 trains a day moving to the chicago to be important's estate would be an undershe past decade there have been at least 272 hazardous material incidents involving trainsn 70 different illinois communities. last year what could have happened in east palestine could have easily happen in illinois. among the cause of t accidents are blocked rail crossings especially among trains carrying hazardous materials blocked rail crossings allows unfortunately overturned

due to federal preemption u.s. department of transportation carrying hazardous material from blocking crossings the ntsb is not weighed in on the block crossing issue we do not have a recommendation on that. on on train with hazardous material in it i think it cou be a safety issue. certainly for first responder access to areas and communities. and having high hazardous materials could be ass >> thank you. that of senator durbin and others among the illinois

congressional delegation the surface transportation board recently approved a merger of canadian pacific and campus city southern. this merger will likel and longer freight trains through the chicago area. particularly the northwest suburb. without asking you to comment on the recently approved merger, can you explain the safety risk of a rail company injected more and longer freight trains some of which may be carrying hazardous material into an alread chicago with a the densely populate an area? >> for the east palestine train that one was not a particularly along the train in our opinion at the board. the one in springfield was a very long trying to .55-mile train. you have workers who have to baby go back and -- next stop and inspect and act so if you're walking back to .5 miles that is a lot on the crew with the equipment and potential safety issues.

as well as higher gross on the train which is a big safety hazard. >> thank you. in 2021 the federal railroad administration recommended penalties for 7300 safety violations that found after inspecting railroad hazardous shippers and rail car. the 3400 $12.3 million. this is an average of $3600 for each assess that same year knorr folk southern income was approximate $3 billion. do you believe the current level of cil penalties in a deterrent? you think congress should consider raising them? >> ntsb does not have a position penalties. i will say it most penalties unfortunately are negotiated pretty low they will be assessed as a civil penalty and then there is a conference portion where they will settle their penalties on a

penny for a dollar. >> you think pennies for a dollar is an effective deterrent for mti- billion-dollar company like norfolk southern? >> i do not. >> i yield back madam chair. >> insight senator schmidt. >> thinkis a town that is outside of is a town that is outside of east palestine and folks in ohio people across the country probably had not heard of. before this terrible tragedy. there's a lot of towns like east palestine i know here ie i am from garden city richton are real neighborhood these are towns that are not filled with corporate titans or elites. they are working men and women who go to church on sunday. try to get home for dinner take the kids to practice and try to play by the rules. all of those matter.

east palestine and instead of showing up in towns like this and specifically east palestine this administration demonstrated they did not matter. joe biden still has not showed up to east palestine. he has been to ukraine. pete buttigieg took three weeks for them to show up. i thank you so much of thi in addition to the things that can be improved as a lack of attention that the people of this town for whatever reason to them or not worthy o an appearance of letting them know we are going to support them. and one of the reasons in the toxic chemical spill this has become such a big issue it is demonstrative that shows x completely out of touch with what i will refer to its flyover

country places like missouri, places like ohio per this should not matter. this accident was foreseeable avoidable, preventable. and so mr. shaw went to ask you is it true norfolk southern rate has nearly doubled in the last 10 years and at least 20 of those derailment since 2015 have true? quick senator thank you for your question. east palestine does matter. i have been there a number of times. i have visited with the community leaders. i have been in the homes of people have invited me too theirn in the schools. i've committed the full support of norfolk southern projects i hear you i've heard you say thate limited time the question is has the accident rateaccident ratedoubled the last decade? quick senator i am not aware of that. i'll be happy to provide you

with that info. i know from 2021 -- 2022 many of -- most of our safety stats are improved. we will continue to get better. we are going to learn from this accident and that is mycommitment i will lead norfolk southern and the industry to better safety practices. >> i would hope so. i think understanding we are happy to educate you on the statistics we have at our ready there's a lot of folks who close to river tracks. i do and there's a lot of folks when it what exactly is going to be done to make sure this does not happen again in additiopen to address the concerns. i do want to with the remaining time i have chair as you know in the aftermath of this incident many in the media andion were quick to blame the previous administration president trump fort not moving forward or

rolling back regulations. however those arguments have been dismissed by including usa today and even the "washington post" noted none of the regulatory changes made during the trump administration trump administration at this point can be cited as contributing to the incident. can you clarify to the committee today i know you have made statements about this just to rollback that took place under the trump administration was responsible for this incident? >> i am not family with all of the regulations and action taken on those regulations from that administration. what i will say with my comments with respect to nomadic breaking breaking there were a lot of comments how that that would've prevented the deer aroma which is not accurate records that is specifically cited by pete

buttigieg a print which again he is not ready and i have many questions maybes take more personal time. we are a few months into this congress with a lot of serious issues involving the department of transportation including this and he has just refused to appear. i think you are very clear publicly saying that that rule would not have impacted this at all. >> have not prevented the derailment. >> at madam chair i wheel b the rest of my time buddy doing to mention the obvious that the obvious that secretary buttigieg is not here is yet to appear before this committee it's incredibly disrespectful not just to this committee but the american people he continues to have happened under his watch. quick senator rosen. >> thanks senators are brown in

advance for working together in a bipartisan way to ensure that a tragedy like east palestine derailment never happens again. and also we have to think about preventing future accidents how we can be proactive. in addition to transporting hazardous waste we also transport nuclear waste by rail. it should be a wake-up call for all americans it is time to address how we transport hazardous materials in this country. burton abandons the transportation to our state by rail some think we have been fighting since the 1980s. for over 30 years we've opposed the nuclear waste disposal project in part because it was a transporting 9500 hazardous radioactive wastes and 2800 trains and over600 trucks from across the country to nevada. this is a major transportation

safety crisis waiting to happen. putting major metropolitan and 44 states there are railways and millions of americans at risk. we already have an agent rail system and consistent shipments of heavy casts of nuclear waste will cause a wear and tear on the could lea to the disaster we saw in ohio or worse. and so chair it can you can you talk about some of the dangers of transporting this kind of waste nuclear waste close to our nation even though i along with the delegation are committed to ensuring that never moves forward to become a reality i still want to ask you if you are o address nuclear waste spills, it can happen as a result of shipping waste on aging or rail lines through american cities to places like this. >> i will say i do believe there are some more protective measures for moving nuclear

fuels. however there is not positive train control. i will also mention it would be disastrous to something did occur. on our resources they are pretty strained and tst has 12 real have four pipeline and hazardous materials safety investigators. we need to increase our investigator at levels that requires additional resources which we have asked congress and the president's budget would accomplish our request of $145 million for 2024. >> when it comes to safety we should be investi them. i want to carry us a low bit further. you show the positive rail control systems are not in nevada we hope that would tell set thatso that will be beneficial.

and you also tell us are the tr waste to they have a wheels bearing a check regularly at what kind of a regularregular checks are you doing to s we may be transporting some additional hazardous waste across the country? >> it will be checked regularly but i would have to defer to mr. jeffries on the exact requirements for the string inspections. >> the federal government has established strict standards for transport of nuclear fuel and has determined the railroadsre the safest mechanism for doing so. i know my team would be happy to sit down to you and your team to talk about the specifics of the requirements there. but that is something we would take with the utmost seriousness the responsibility t government has delegated to our industry to move those cars with the highest level of safety.

>> thank you i look forward to talking about that. i want to be sure we are being stringent enough. another topic very important to nevada's were reliable freight rail because nevada is the nation later in tourism and hospitality service that is a sector that relies heavily on freight rail to bring in goods from out-of-state partners to support our industry. the interstate 15 corridor which runs from california to nevada is crowded it makes it difficult for trucks to move efficiently makes reliable freight raillong the corner all that more important. so mr. jeffries how do you think congress can support a more reliable freight system that moves quickly but still promote safety as its core priority? >> thank you for that. we are a end of the day we are not providing good service were not doing our jobs in the pandemic

on the supply chain challenges illustrated make significant progress on the service front.as they mention significant hiring efforts we are at the highest level that we have done in three years it's about taking things to the next step. we have seen folks want to know exactly where things are exactly when they're going to get there exactly when the pro order when that's going to be delivered. where was he to work to provide increase visibility to where the shipments are to their customers, increase predictabilits are underway if there is some exciting things on the horizon. thank you. >> ii think you i yield back now chair. fisher. >> think you meant in german. the east palestine train derailment has increased her public awarenessorpublic awareness of rail safety concerns. especially for trains that are moving through very rural smalln my home state of nebraska. this committee takes rail safety

very seriously. modern technologies can enhance railroad safety especially in how it rail rail cars and trucks are inspected. mrou how a two-pronged inspection system using a visual and automated tracking inspections can improve rail safety? >> thank you for that thank you for your efforts on rail safety. you're exactly right a two-pronged approach to track inspections is the appropriate path forward. so as we have discussed autonomous inspection tools allow for not only a continuous inspection o tra goes over but at a much higher level of sensitivity a much higher level of effectiveness is found to be 90% more effective at identifying flaws in the track before they become serious risks. several pilot programs have been in place with some of our railroads at the fra unfortunately literally had to sue the fra to expand those pilot programs and recently won in court the ability to do that it's a shame it took that level

of effort for proven safety technology but it is a two-pronged approach. ati does not catch everything it does not do every job that human spectra does. we absolute still need the human inspection capabilities and hopefully our inspectors are spending more tim addressing found anomalies and using the naked eye walking the tracks. and again there is a place for both it's a complementary appr result in a much higher level of safety which should be the ultimate goal for everybody. >> it is the ultimate goal that's what we're trying to get what is impeding the use of the automated technologies throughout the whole rail network? >> rates. we are going to take things step-by-step as we deploy this technology for one. but we need a regulatory environment we regular that promotes innovation promotes technology. pilot programs identifying new ways of doing things. you don't have to go to and let's have the opportunity

to experiment with things some technologies may not work out this may prove to have dramatic fety benefits let's build data sets we can objectively analyze and partnership with the regulator to advance safety. >> thank you. mr. shaw as you are aware the current law dictates common carrier obligations that railroads must abide by. specifically railroads must transport any freight under reasonable terms including hazardous materials. can you explain how the impacts the weight you wereway your railroad transport hazardous material and in coordination withers? >> yes, thank you for the question senator. rail remains one ofafest formsthe safestforms of handling hazardous materials. we do have a common carrier obligation to handle products. we work very with our customers, with their fellow railroaders and with elected officials and with the

regulatory body to handle that in the safest manner possible i will note in 2022 hour derailments were the fewest they have been in the last two decades. >> what obligation do to shippers have if on maintaining their railcars that transport these hazardous materials? >> senator as you know there are many components that we fully support. the rail industry has been and pushing for stronger tankcar standards for about the last eight years is my understanding and that is included in the much. i just have a couple of short questionsshortquestions here mr. jeffries for you. when i talk to my constituents in the brass going to the items i hear about frequently is community notification. folks just want to know what dangerous things could possibly be moving through their towns and cities, while still

maintaining the security that is needed that is controlled in a way because we all know there's a lot of people out there cause mischief and that would be disastrous. the fast act which i hope to author added notice requirements that we did it in a way that provided first responders the information they needed. again ensuring local actors would not have access to that. those rulemaking's have not been completed is my understanding. do freight railroads agreed appropriate community notification is necessary and what part do they play in ensuring that communities do have the information? >> it's obsolete necessary one 100% agree with that assessment. you are right the rule was supposed to be done a yea it's seven years overdue. we did not wait around we develop your own mechanism to

get informatn into fst responders hands. but we need help building awareness. we sent letters out to every firefighter association in each state trying to build awareness we are shifting towards late respondeup process to emergency communication center model because to senator vance's point earlier if you are in a rural area you do not necessarily have cell service but there is a requirement that you always have radio service to my knowledge with the emergency communication center. if the emergency communication center has that access the first responder can quickly get that from there but we have got more work to do. and i look forward to workurther ways to get that information into those hands are needed. >> thank you, thank you madam chair. >> senatorank you chair cantwell and thank you for this important hearing. i want to begecognizing senator brown and senator vance

for coming together and responding so quickly we appreciate their staff and the work they are doing but i also want to thank ms. allison for being part of that panel today. i think all too often the impact to a family or to a person are left out. and i just want to say thank you for helping the country those of us here in the senate better understand what the family has gone through. and it just reminds me it should not take a tragedy like this for there to be action. i appreciate everyone coming together it is the right thing to do. but before? there are incidents all across the country. there are jury ailments there have been conversation about reductions in workforce. we have less people looking at something there is going to be a problem. as long as we identify until after something horrific

happens. we all what of my frustration since being here in the senate and the house is you go through these efforts it we fight for rules and we thank you joe that we recognize each other for that work and then it goes to be implemented. and all the folks who did not want the legislation get another crack at this and then they mess it up where there is a rulemaking or an implementation and there's a bunch of filings which i am one that reads those. it creates a bunch of loopholes but then there's interviews that come after it said no we wanted all the stuff done i certainly hope there's a lesson here. and on this with all the filings every word is washed every statement is watch loopholes are not being advocated for by the groups that have been hirednies and represent interest only to allow for something like this to happen again. i hope we are mindful to that.

now a week ago ad in the small community in arizona. and mohave. just hours before as you can imagine that small town after small town it was in new mexico. my question here is run first responders as well. because when this happened in the initial reports and went to law enforcement was there was a high concern of hazardous mate t train. it was corn syrup. so i appreciate inf shared, that does not sound to me like first responders are being looked after when they're getting to an incident like this. theretter way of sharing accurate and timely information. i appreciate the questions of my colleague ms. fincher as well ine can be done there. and that is aware where madam chair how can the process be improved to ensure it once a derailment happens the first responders quickly receive the information they need to properly respond?

>> they ate meat advance notification i do appreciate what the railroads have done with the app the problem is when you have a derailment and train cars are bunched up when you are pulling from the ask rail app it goes by a car in order. if youail meant with cars all over the not going to know what similar car. that is not helpful. but the first responders need to quickly pause you there cannot fixed? >> i'll have to get back to on that. >> if that is a problem or we have an incident we know it exists today in it that's broken in the system, let's fix it progress advance notification for the first responder community is key because they need to be prepared they need to be adequately trained they need the right gear they need to have emergency response planning done in coordination with the railroad. so that they can be prepared in case something happens.

>> i certainly agree with that. but i want to bring attention to the challenge you identify and i appreciate you identifying it. butfor breath that system is in place and there's not communication because cars are close to one another and you know it's in there i just hope that is something that can be fixed. someone knows what's in there. mr. whitaker first thank you for your testimony in your work representing the workforce. cut over 30% and they mentioned that in the open. but expanding the explain the workforce have a concrete impact on imp outcomes and it comes to safety? definitely strengthen inspections. will be able to reduce fatigue on people as would it paid

leave help the people are getting worn out and tired and think about nature your fresh eyes would that help? >> absently paired right now we have people sick with the flu covid, whatever the case may be they are afraid to take time off because if they mark off sick they get reprimanded. >> i appreciate that my time has expired i certainly appreciate this hearing i have so many questions i will submit the rest of the record. families thank you for what you're doing. please come note loopholes filings, we could all do better at that. thank you. >> under blackburn. >> thank you madam chairman and i want to thank you all for being here for the hearing today. when i know that is hard at work trying to help the people of east palestine. i so appreciate the governor's

remarks at the outset. i know my colleague senator vance has really worked hard tia bring some attention to this community. chief comstock i want to come to you. it is my understanding the aar in partnership with emergency management agencies and at sumner county tennessee piloted the addition of data to their emergent emergency management dispatching system. following the derailment and east palestine firefighters were on the ground for 90 minutes but could not access the app to get information about what substances were on board the train. she did an interview in which she said none of the first responders we had devices at all.

so can you give me a lit more informationbout how the app may have been used and whether first responders are making effective use of the app? what are the requirements about using that app? looks respect to requirements i'm not aware of any. after the effective use of the app ient members as to how minorities and many region that app presently. i fell in 50% of the firefighters had that app a much higher% with respect to our department's officers. the factors were the railcars were off the track. they were bunched up in a ladder style formation. keep in mind it was nights.

you had burning cars and smoke on some of the proctors had burned off. you have to try to use that at somesomewhat a safe distae. so it can be difficult. i think it is a good app but could be used more. we need to have better education echoes hand-in-hand with the trainings we discussed and advocated for i would also add with respect to technology. there are apps i have on my phone when a car flipped the on star information or others will be relayed to the app. what examples i responded to rapid sosrapidsos it gathers technology, sends it to m my phone so in route to a motor vehicle accident on the car has flipped three times the airbag has gone out i this information about that car. whether it's electric car things i have to worry about i should be able to get that informationut trains i

think. >> mr. jeffries, let me come to you. what issue your uerstanding for how the app was used or not access during the incident? >> based on what i rea i believe it was access but i do not have details by who and how. to be clear which all first responders and to date we have taken responder by responder approach there are a lot of first responders in this country having 35000 with the app is not sufficient, not ready to be that's were shifting to emergency communication center appr knowing as i understand it first responders will always have access to emergency communication center. hat has it information responders can individually delve the app we are wide open to looking at ways of working with the first responder community to further penetrate that population to get

this into his many people's hands as possible. >> you would say the app is not working? >> i think the app works decide what it's going to do. it's making sure everybody -- mark we get into as many people's hands as possible going responded by responder is a slow meticulous way to achieving that. >> okay, alright thank you very much. thank you madam chair for quick senato hickenlooper? >> thank you. let me ask a question, mr. jeffries the real plays a crucial r nation. i want to talk about a specific rail project in the west that is reported bonds from gog. that would be a taxpayer taxpayer-funded

subsidy for a project that has raised concern among community leaders in colorado. the cost is gone upsignificantly. this type of dot bond eidson issue clear publication benefit. are you aware of private activity bonds issued primarily for transportation of commodities for private sale? >> senator i am not aware of any. i would not say there absently have not been any but i'm any. >> okay. if you could follow up on that, that would be great. and chairwoman you have gone over in some detail the high hazard flammable train definition. the train carrying 20 otank cars are 35 take cars, i guess one question i would be

curious about is what other risk factors such as proximity to natural resources should be considered when providing notice of a high hazard flammable? >> that should be considered for high hazard flammable train. also just to clarify for the record the responders had access to the app when they did not have the information for quite some time on what was on the train. with that said this one i do believe environmentally sensitive areas and waterways should be considered. especially for routing of trades. and for protection. ex thank you i appreciate that and agree. chief comstock, thank you and all your first responder collects your dedication to public service. palestine were horrific. not just the environmental destruction but the homes

community, the lives. the statistic i was shown says hazardous material cars involved in derailment have increased 339% from 1986 until 2021. you discussed the need for all fire departments to have access to training, to safely respond to hazardous material. could more resources be provided by the hazardous materials safety administration to increase safety training and response capacity for fire departments? >> yes particularly your talk about the hands-on training. th fighters who cannot take time off work. we need to not only have a good hands on which that railway industry is looking to try to increase but we need to find ways to deliver that we need to be creative and find ways to get

that to those departments in rural areas. nonce weather through the use of technology or more home delivery programs like it is operating. that's how we're going to have to do poker going to over going to need to devote more resources. >> what role should rail companies play in ensuring companies have adequate to plan for and also to respond to real disasters? o be a partnership who has an interest in this issue. we need to work with the railways they neeor us. i think it's going to be a continued improved results as a result of this hearing and the derailment. >> thank you chief. and chairwoman, do you agree with that in response in terms of participation of the >> absolutely. we have had a recommendation on

ensuring lresponse planning and providing resources including appropriate training. >> athe great thank you very much. think if your testimony i go back to the chair. correct thanknorfolk southern is headquartered in atlanta. it runs in the extensive operation of track 600600 bridges 2700 railroad highway grade crossings and a number of rail yards and transfer facilities and cities across the entire state. a multi modal state that's a lot of rail in georgia. i cannot help but see the accident in east palestine and wonder what would have happened instead of watching this in ohio witnessing this or experiencing it in georgia.

mr. shaw can you give me and the people of georgia confidence we won't see an accident like this in georgia? >> senator, thank you for the question i am terribly sorry for the derailment in east palestine we are working every day to norfolk southern and the rail industry safer. we have seen the plume and it results from tb investigation. we have made a number of enhancements to our own safety programs and response. we have worked with to enhance safety and input and more safety features there are many aspects of fully support to enhance real safety. we are a safe railroad. the number of disparate ailments on norfolk southern it was a lois laster than has been in the last two decades. senator warnock i am fully committed to enhancing safety for norfolk southern and for the

entire industry. >> it is good to hear in the work that you want to do. could you speak more be done in your review to protect our citizens and our neighbors from accidents like this? >> think you senator. we have announced we enhance our enhancing our detector network we are adding 200 detectors to our network. we are piloting a next-generation hot bearing detectors. are working on the industry at bestbest best practices for safety. we are deploying more acoustic bearing detectors across our network and we are installing a digital inspection portal. we are piloting with georgia tech outside to inspect the passing trains and catch things the humanye cannot catch. we will continue to invest in

safety we spent over a billion dollars on capitol and over billion dollarsabillion dollars in ongoing operating expenses. >> is there anything you did not have in place during this accident know hindsight is 2020 that you wish you would've had in place? >> what i can point you to do some thesomethe steps we are taking now based on the preliminary results of the investigation. i look forward to fully cooperating throughout the full investigation and look forward to those results. >> i have the time to move across the state you and i had a chance to talk we will keep that communication line open but i have to tell you as they move across the states and i talked to nor focused southern workers i am here for rail w the policies around the working conditions and creating safety issues and may have contributed

to this accident. do you believe your worker policies contributed to this in any way? >> se promote the safety of train operations. i too have been fully engaged with our as ceo i went out into the field and i walked into the crew room and i am engaged with our employees and i think them for their service to norfolk southern their service to our customers and their service to the united states. ceo senator we have been on a hiring spree we have 15 or more employees than we did at this time last year. >> so how are you working with those employees and labor on any changes you are considering? what have you learned from the accident that might result in changes to work policy? >> senator i am committed to improving the safetulk southern and throughout the industry.

i have reached out to the heads up our two largest labor unions and asked the input on how we can advance safety and norfolk southern. >> thank you so much and i look forward to working with you and with the labor and all of your colleagues. to do everything we can and make sure everything is done for the safe operation of our rail infrastructure. >> thank you senator warnock. it has been an interesti hearing for sure. a lot of information but i would like to get some clarity because we do want to move legislation in this area. i do want to start the information. my state has definitely seen -- but there's a debate are we seeing an increase in derailments? my state definitely. it is great we had a witness who is actually a marketing expert because ms. allison said you can always take members and mean different things i am letting you know this is a 10 year

window in my state we definitely have seen increase in derailments. and because we carry so much oil it is always an issue for us and the communities that go t the areas. i wanted to start with you as it relates to legislation i originally introduced in 2015 let's get rid of.111 and now the infrastructure bill we look at 2029 date this legislation says listed by 2025 do you agree that is the right? >> yes. ntsb agrees we should move up the dates and eliminate the dot 111 from hazmat service. not just from class three flammable liquid service but all hazmat service in this train. we had 16 dotf them would be covered under the final rule.

>> okay the rest of the witnesses agree? >> one 100%. >> lee filed jointly with the shippers in 2011 to upgrade 111. following the 2014 rule came to congress because there was a 20 cart loophole there is not thermal protection there were other protected severe weather% on board i've done in a way that manufacturers can achieve your goals and acting with you support the legislation to move the date5? i support moving forward is feasibly is 20 as possible. atever the manufacturers can make happen. >> was a shock question i guess we support the component for accelerating safer tank car to other issues if we could on your investments. one of the things i want to ask you about mr. shaw is you been talking about you have had a less derailments. but i am pretty sure we've seen an increase in accidents we think 14%. this issue is about the number

of accidents. she was talk about the video issue. it does not matter. issues are issues. and at the same time. as this increase of 14% we also as you stated earlier youlion in safety. however, at data from the company provided a transportation board said you cut network investmentséz in just five years. at the same time accident rates increase by 60%. meanwhile the company made a record. this is a discussion are we putting the right resources into the network? are we putting the right resources in your opinion? yes we are. investing over aa year. and safety improvements are capitol improvement overall has increased about 30% we are

hiring at a record clip. >> the chart shows this is your own information. an increase investment in a 22% decrease in the number of employees. as i became at and may of laste hiring spree and that continues until this day. i will note last of the number of derailments on norfolk southe the damaging impact of these accidents o impact on our children, no. you cannot put our kids to comfortable this is issue across the board and in aviation, and transportation we are not going to take profits over safety

investments. we are going to require -- mike -- arlene think that's good business. but here we are going to make sure those investments are made across the board for so i want to get to this issue as it relates to the workforce. particularly this issue of what role they play and in the inspection process. do you think the current system works? nk we need more enhancements there? the bill increases the workforce. some of the testimony by mr. whitaker would say we need more on the workforce side. >> senator with respect to the bill we certainly support requires fra audits. of a triennial review of rail

safety standards. we asked you to send this information abouttandards here and you stated that you do not have policies that mandate minimum or maximum amount of time needed for inspection of a railcar and yet this information shows that it is part of thehe railcar inspection that you are saying to your employee that is the cycle time for 50 car cut is at .5 one inspection. that's saying that you have to inspect one side of that car

within 30 seconds. >> mr. whitaker do you know about this? >> i'm aware about this issue here. conductors knows how to inspect most of those. we are going to materials with materials the and unforgiving equipment. >> i don't think that you support the brown bill as it relates to requirement of more people than just the conductor on a railcar but this is just an example of how i think the system is being short-changed and while the information age

gives us all sorts of ideas of efficiency we can't take that to extreme when you end up cutting safety and the safety standards we have to have minimum safety standards we have to have modernization of sa the minimum amount of people to do the job so that's what's going to be required across every sector of transportation and this o the make sure that we get there because we can't -- because we are not going to let people just keep, you know putting money in the bank and thinking can short-change safety. we can't short-change east palestine your thoughts of at least getting rid of this, getting rid of the notion that it's 30 seconds? >> i'm not familiar with a might be male or maximum on railcar inspection direction. we do support evidence-based approach to the improve outcomes

for customers and the communities we serve. >> well, maybe you can find somebody in your organization to get you this document but it's clearly your document and it's clearly what's being implemented and i don't think it's the standard that we want and i don't think it's a safe idea. now i would like to go to this larger issue. the underlying bill is requirement for training of local fire fighting teams on dealing with this kind of material. is there enough in there or do we need to put something in here about equipment. i asked the first panel about this? >> i think it goes hand in hand. we have to have specialize equipment and i raised in my original submittal that we need

turnout gear. best example is one set of turnout gear. when i have to wash that, i am out of service. i had 3 firefighters that were exposed. their gear is contaminated. it takes six months to replacement gear. that's an everyday use that we need. specialized suits that can cost $15,000 or more or specialized monitor equipment is unrealistic for the froth t provide that to the every department but we do

need to look at a regional approach to call on teams so we can supplement. >> we need to do more than what we have in the bill? >> yes. >> i talk to a lot of firefighters across the state of washington and believe me rail goes everywhere in our state. are you willing to support what's in the underlying bill, are you willing to do more than the underlying bill to make sure fire fighting have the equipmentpm that they need. >> senator we support and we are willing to do more to the support firefighters. we just opened up regional training facility in ohio for first responders. >> i'm thinking something a little different. having resources up front in the timely manner to have in a community and the challenge here to figure out how to do that and

where to i think if we will move product like this, we can't leave it up to volunteered firefighters to be on the front line. we have to think of what is a way to put resources into the local community so i appreciate the fact that you're willing to consider that mr. jeffress. >> 100% agree. >> great place to look at hazardous materials emergency preparedness program which is about $28.3 million annually and it's been there like that for years and needs to increase. it is paid for by fees by the shippers and transporters of hasmat. >> okay. consensus there. i don't think the video that you brought up earlier is in there

but you're saying that thereb should be some video communication. you're saying that there's missing video from this accident you're saying that you don't have video that it wasn't required there was video but we don't have it because the engine moved on and went somewhere else and was video taped over? >> in the dupont accident you were mentioning how valuable, why was it valuable during the dupont accident?>> very valuable. some assumed early on, not us that there was destruction in the cab and we could see in the video that that did not occur we always could see there was hesitation by the engineer around controls. we determined through the investigation including looking at the video that they weren't provided adequate training to

the train crew. >> okay. >> that's not right. you're putting too much pressure on employees right now with inadequate training and i'm sure the numbers -- i would be curious to see what the retention rate is. i know mr. shaw much they have hired people, what's the retention rate of

people sticking around? i'm an advocate for two-person crew obviously. >> mr. whitaker what stand looking at given that we have the transformation and longer trains? i don't think i have heard intermettently through the change. >> right. i don't even have timeo look out the window of my locomotive half of the time.

we have people that have zero railroad experience running our railroads. we could be so much more efficient and do so much better if railroad management would labor. we could move trains without incident and could make things more safe but they just have to listen. done in this instance? >> what i feel should have been done with the technology and this is something going back to last year that i sounded the whistle on, we need to trending defect detector keeping that information to the ourselves and our headquarters, take a chance let's move the train down the line. that's what they are doing. >> you are saying that they knew that this train had a weak spot, is that what you're saying? >> absolutely. r you've saying the train had a

weak spot? >> if their train defect detector according to ntsb report that i've said they've seen the cart turn hotter and hotter. >> mr. shaw, did someone at norfolk southern have that information? >> senator from my understanding once the train hit the third detector which showed we hit the threshold then the crew acted accordingly. >> why did you keep putting the car on is the question? >> mr. whitaker said there should have been a signal. i'm telling you right now we technology and make sure that people are getting that

information as fast as possible. we are going to use ntsb to help us hold faa account are going to help them the as they are today hold accountable. we have to look at safety trends lhat is coming at us. that's what technology can do. we can't ignore that because we want to make and say we are going to make the investment and we are going the make sure that everybody has the information and that's how we keep on top of safety. >> in atlanta norfolk southern has desk and what they saw at the educational background wayside detector is noncritical alert. it wasn't critical alarm laws the threshold at the time was 103 plus 10-degrees from underneath the train and they got a critical alarm at the last

one. if by that time the train was in the process of derailing because there is a little bit of a delay, the crew will get information but at the train control desk, the entir needs to move past that wayside detector before the train control desk has that information. with that said, there's also at the same time dealing with other trains that may have warm or hot bearings. >> so you're saying -9z$i mr. whitaker what are you saying? that before this knowing that the information was there something should have happened on these cars and somebody, if you would have had the information and the workforce would have the information they would have asked for further inspection is that what you're saying? >> tha saying. when you're on a train and you're passing over defect detector if that detector senses a will bearingits a threshold, we hear a deep alarm that tells me as locomotive engineer, all right i'm not train

brakes on the train because i don't know what's wrong with them. dynamic breaking whichlock motive down. i'm going to come to a safe stop and once i clear the detector it's going to tellt's wrong that in this case if i see a -- my tire pressure on my carlosing air i'm going to pull over and stop and check that out, right? if i own a rai wheel heating up, i'm going to protect my investment and i'm going to call that train crew, hey, i know that you're not meeting the threshold here but you need to stop and check this out. it can be something a hand brake applied on a car or a stuck brake something that could be addressed right then the and there. so once it start trending we need to stop and check it out no matter if we don't even h threshold. let's take the safe course of

action. >> thank you. >> all right. senator cruz, thank you. you have a follow-up for second round? sorry, i took my first and second round together. >> all good. >> you have been very patient and thank you for putting we've been here for much long time here so we appreciate it.íj madame chair and thank you to the witnesses this has been a productive hearing, useful hearing. mr. jeffreys i want to start with this. everybody is concerned about enhancing safety standards to minimize the risk o derailments and i think there's bipartisan interest in moving rail safety legislation. i think we are going to be successful in doing that. at the same time we want to enhance safety, we want to protect the interest of i will say there are portions of the brown bill as currently drafted that concern me in particular givg

significantly more authority to the department of transportation this department of transportation their policies created a apply chain drove up costs and increased scarty for consumers all across the countryen administration has also demonstrated deep animus to energy and i would certainly bed about giving secretary buttigieg the authority to make it difficult to transport energy in the united states and drive up costs for consumers. in your judgment, mr. jeffreshe current draft of the bill that concern you and in particular what can be the negative consequences for consumers of secretary buttigieg having too much authority to drive up costs? >> well, thank you for that. i very much appreciate the question. contrary to statements that have

been made the aar has not taken a position on this bill, frankly, i think there's a on almost every provision in there. i think there's an opportunity to work together to try to get to yes. i think the provision you're asking about is one that would apply, i think of 12 new rule makings around any train that's moving at least one car of hasmat. over 40% of trains move and that could be a flammable gas. it could also be asphalt and in my view i'm not sure applying those same levels of restrictions for flammable gases and asphalt makes a lot of sense because of the overarching impacts. similar to the ups.

does that mean that nothing should be done, absolutely not. really focuses on what is truly risk versus one that perceives little risk so there's a path forward there and we need to target what -- >> we will work with you to try to find a solution that enhances safety while at the same time protecting the interest of consumers. mr. shaw you and i talked yesterday and you norfolk southern was a proponent of venting and burning the vital chloride from all five tanks at least one of the tanks was significantly injured. there has been disagreement

whether tanks were compromised or not. will you commit to the committee with any and all information as to the condition of all five tank cars? >> y we will be transparent with the committee about our understanding of the conditions on the ground. my goal during the entire process was to provide unified command and the incident commander with the best information that we had. at that point there was concern that these four cars had been in a pool fire and that the pressure release valve had fell and there was concern about the pressure on the cars. >> in terms of the decision to vent and burn the vinyl chloride which is what caused the smoke and the rather extraordinary sight of american city essentially on fire, among the decision makers that were engaged in that process did

anyone disagree with the recommendation to vent and burn the individual chloride from all five tank >> sir, my understanding is unified command was aligned around that decision and that decision was based solely on the safety of that community. >> what are the alternatives to venting and burning and what are risks involved in the venting and burning procedure? >> unventing and burning is to alternatives. in this case, they were melted so that was not do hot tapping which is essentially cutting a hole in the tank and draining the liquid essentially transloading it to another railcar. there are risks to that and then there's the v burn.

>> mr. shaw, the locomotive that was involved in this derailment was immediately or almost immediately put into service on another train and so the video was not available for examination. did that happen and why? i have to the admitth senator and i looked at each other and thought that was a bizarre thing to hear. so is that true and if so why? >> senator, my understanding is that 15 minutes of video are available time before, during and immediately after the derailment. my understanding is we followed protocols. >> mr. shaw, i asked you to answer the question i asked is it true the locomotive was very shortly thereafter put into service and the result was significant portions of the video were >> senator the, at some point after and sounds like it was shortly after i don't have the details. i'm happy to >> let me say there's

a locomotive involved in a serious derailment it's lunacy that the video is not prv locomotive is put into alternative service. i feel confident that we can get committee on that. there's a lot of discussion command central having the wayside detectors and the engineer not having the information. this particular tank car has forelling southern examined whether it triggered previous wayside detect it's either on this train or in other circumstances? >> i believe that's part of ntsb investigation. >> has norfolk southern examined that? do you neglect if it hadtriggered previous wayside dedirects or? >> i'm not aware that it did. >>ormation on this and are you confident we will get the answer at some point? >> i will provide you the

answer. it had not reached theritil threshold that is set by norfolk southern. >> she described her 7-year-old who was afraidalth and safety. what is your anxious to answer to her and other moms, what is your answer tonight, what should she tell her child her 7-year-old child

tonight and what should oth moms in that circumstance tell their kids tonight? >> senator, i'm terribly sorry for the impact this has had on the community and i know that it's been traumatic. i there during the burn and i saw the flume there's ongoing testing by the ohio epa and pennsylvania department of environmental protection. they all showed that the air is safe and the water is safe to breathe. millions of data points. there's still enormous concern within the community about three one is long-term health care, one is about property valuations as you noted and one is ongoing water monitoring so norfolk southern is working with relevant stakeholders which include state and local authorities setting up funds to cover all three of those.

>> how many families were impacted? >> senator, there are 4700 approximately folks and some in pennsylvania as well. >> you had said earlier in your testimony that you spent to date if i got the number right $24 million, youo noted 6,000 families altogether. doing quick math that's $4,000 per family. do you agree with -- with ms. allison's testimony that home prices have dropped significantly and there's a mom scared for her kids that she rightow great options? >> senator, i understand your point our contributions are just the start and what we are offering through the family assistant center that folks want to relocate. our family assistant has been opened since the day of

derailment. you're saying if the family in east palestine wants to mthat norfolk southern will pay cost of moving and you will also make them whole -- >> senator what i'm saying if they want to leave their house for a while we will pay for relocation fees and we are working with relevant stakeholders and long-term fund for the property valuable insurance. >> you'll put them up in a or hotel temporarily but you're not assisting with moving? i just want to understand what you're doing right now? >> right now we are putting them up in a hotel the and paying for food and clothing if needed. we are also working with relevant stakeholders and long-term fund for property valuation. >> let me say mr. shaw, you said multiple times that you want to make it right. make it right is a real committee expects norfolk southern to do just that. these people and the families

matter. >> well, thank you senator cruz. that the concludes our hearing. i thank all the witnesses for participating today. the letters from the easte residents regarding impact of derailment be entered into the record and without objection so ordered. the hearing will be open for two weekl be accepting comments on the brown vance legislation. the senators will have until wednesday, fifth of april at noon to submit questions for the record to the committee. the witness wills have two weeks to respond to those questions. >> we are standing with those dates. the committee is adjourned.

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[inaudible conversations] >> i don't have a timeline but we have a big challenge. we faa authorization bill out of here but we are not going to delay this for that. we are going to try to get both of those done pretty soon, so i think we are listening to the questions from members and their comments. i think there's a lot of commonality already here on the bill. since the committee has previously worked on the legislation in variousqb this committee of familiarity with the subject so i'm hoping that that will lead us to have something you know,

marked up at least in april. >> pieces that you think need to come together in a railway safety bill? >> we will take them up on the notion of resources that we need to get to help the first responders. we are going to follow up on that. we need more in the northwest and we heard from the rail industry that they want to do more. there's models that are working. so let's just figure out what we need to get done. >> well, that's part of what we are discussing. i think having -- having a workforce that somebody fails to respon inspection is not good and my guess is that from what mr. whitaker is saying that there's great advantage to safety having more people, so we

will have to look at that as well. >> i think that we sharp crisp answers of what people support and don't support. yeah i think we -- there's a lot of comments and the more accurate people can be about their positions and why is -- >> how important is it that norfolk southern supports -- >> i don't know that that's the barometer. i think the committee is sophisticated on rail issues and what i think that they're going the want to know becot of questions and i would consider them hard-hitting on both sides. i think what people want to know is how to not have this happen again. >> do you have a sense -- are

these addressable questions. how close do you think the membs are t making the decision if you think the nominations -- >> i think that people, we want today have the hearings with our colleague who is -- accountable to the act that we asked them to implement. busy existing job which is safety but you know, we are glad taking a much more aggressive poll on safety. a lot of people could have decided not to come to that hearing. but i think what really is at the backdrop on all of this the is people are like what is going on senator cruz asked that, what is going on, what's going

on and then, no, we are seeing an increase in trend and near misses and this is what we think causing it and we didn't have the testimony at that hearing but since then people have said that there are human factors and that open faa issue could have forced that implementation of those. so i think now members are taking all of that discussion that we just had and saying, what is going on. there's a lot going on on aviation safety and people digesting what happened at the submit and what is going o my point is, important day job and you ask yourself why haven't we implemented what chair is saying would have helped prevent some of the near misses. so i think everybody is getting the big miss about what is happening in aviation and safety culture and now saying, okay, what do we need to do to make sure that we are as aggressive

on infrastructure investment, big theme here, big theme across the board. are people short-changing infrastructure investment in exchange for profit. say that faa you know, is in the daily whip but guess they also probably did southwest short-changed infrastructure investment. they didn't do it. the f the aa, i don't know how they made aviations divisions. now they are going to upgrade the no tamp system. i think people are looking at what did he do at both la and

denver to implement safety regulation. did he do anything on these issues on the listing did he implement things on that. >> that's a trend you're seeing -- >> it is. we just noticed that it is happening. look in an information age guess what you get you get more information. i can make more money this way okay but that could be dramatically at odds with safety and so don't do it, okay, you know we can see an aviation where that wasn't the best idea. the point is -- the pointee that that's not a good idea or not. i guaranty we are not going to let carriers of people get away with short-changing safety. we are not going to do it. you have to make the investment to have the safest system you have to have the highest standards, the most modernized

equipment and the most minimal amount of people. that's just what it takes so i think people are going to agree on that. there may be nuances on the details but i think we are going to try to capitalize on the fact thatcame together so they have a big chunk of this and again as i mentioned earlier we had this in previous bills before the committ. ian move fast. is there a date to bring back vote -- >> no, but we would like to do it soon. yeah, yeah. >> on the rail, what do you think a realistic timeline would be to get a bill through committee and onto the floor? >> oh, yeah, oh yeah. yeah. [inaudible conversations] >> exactly.

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