c-span.org/history. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we are offended by these television companies and more including buckeye broadband. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> buckeye broadband supports c-span is a public servicelong with these other televisn providers giving you a front row seat to democracy. >> former undersecretary of state for global affairs paula dobriansky discussed afghan women's rights at the wilson center. she said afghan women had suffered very draconian measures relating to education,

celebrities, healthcare and worked since the taliban had taken over in august 2021. this is about an hour and ten minutes. >> good afternoon, everyone. i am an associate for the middle is broken here at the wilson center. i please welcome you to today's fifth annual forum for a discussion on women's rights in afghanistan. to introduce today's speaker i'm pleased to welcome ambassador mark green, director, presidency of the wilson center. >> great. thanks. ladies and gentlemen, good afternoon and welcome to this marvelous for. i'm grateful that even though i couldn't be at the center today, technology still makes i it possible to join you. not only is she known around the

world for her important writing underinvestment in a she holds a very special place in the hearts of all of us are at the wilson center. she is a founding director of our middle is program and she led the team from 1998-2015. this series on significant voting women's empowerment, women's rights globally but particularly in the middle east region. former secretary of state madeleine albright and agra the series in 2017 pics of sin it's featured senator chris vand hollen, undersecretary general and executive secretary of the u.n. and social commission for the western hemisphere, and a vassar. the executive director of the george that the georgetown institute for women's peace and security right in washington, d.c. washington, d.c. the wilson center is a unique institution in foreign policy with congressionally chartered, scholarship driven and fiercely nonpartisan and independent.

that special status brings with it certain obligations, to not to forgive others are doing but instead to prioritize the most important issues and opportunities and to try to do so in ways we can add value and make a difference. this year's topic, advocacy for afghan women's rights on the global stage, is critical to our work here inin the center and to the policy committee at large and is very much something that is among those importantnt priorities that we have to we would represent a powerful locus of change, whether at the helm and can become a suicide or the private sector, women play a critical role in preventing conflict come of buildingpr pea, and sustainingpr prosperity. the situation of gender discrimination in afghanistan is abysmal. and it's worsening by the day as a taliban further restricts women's ability to work, , trav, access basic healthcare

services. moreover, millions of afghans are facing food and water insecurity, and the risk of disease. with women and girls bearing the brunt of these effects. what can be done to alleviate their plight? how can the international committee upholdw women's right? to discuss these questions and more i'm delighted to introduce our speaker and a longtime friend, ambassador paula dobriansky pitches to a senior fellow at harvard university belfer center and, of course, for undersecretary of state for global affairs during the bush administration. she is the founding chair of the u.s.-afghan women's council, an organization aiming to reach out to afghan women and provide an opportunity for them to advance their priorities, including education, health, economic empowerment and rule of law. during our time in government she supported the creation of the american university of

afghanistan which gave countless girls and women the chance to receive an education, high school and university level. ambassador dobriansky helped usher in an increase in afghan women leaders in civil society, the public sector and in business. in short, she helpedus to provie hope to afghan women. thank you for your leadership on these critical efforts, paula. it is great to see you, even if it is to a zoom screen. and now without further ado i turned the floor over to marissa, director of our middle is program. over to you. >> thank you. thank you, ambassador green. >> thank you much, ambassador green and, of course, thank you also for all the support you lend to the mill is broken particularly our middle is women's initiative. ambassador francie, welcome once again at about two also welcome our online audience. and remind them before we kick off this conversation that you also have the opportunity to

live, it's a questions and we will be collecting for the q&a session. so let's start a conversation as ambassador in mentioned this is a critical topic. it's a longer in the headlines. there's a lot going on around the world, particularly in the middle east and north africa region. but we really want to shed light on what's happening in afghanistan because since the taliban takeover almost two and half years ago now, we have seen the rights of afghan girls and women regress. so many restrictions and limitations on their movement and their present in the public sphere. you've done so much work as ambassador we mentioned to ensure that the equal access to education. so where are we today, and how does this bode for the future of the country. >> as well, first, , merissa, fa i do want to thank ambassador

green, mark green and do want to thank you and the wilson center for inviting me pick in fact, when i received the infestation and he said it's the haleh esfandiari forum, i said when can i be signed up? privilege and an honor to be part of this forum. and if i may pay tribute to you, because you are someone who has stood so staunchly for the rights of all, but not only for the all but women also in particular. iranian women, afghan women, others who have been repressed across the globe. so may i take a moment? i would like to first applaud you. [applause] >> just thank you because ambassador green mentioned in his words in his opening hope. and hope, those role models who have paved thed way and had

courage in standing up to tyranny and oppression, it's so important and you certainly are one of those individuals. so thank you for all you've done. merissa, to answer your question, tragically, the situation is very bad. there have been very draconian measures, abusive measures taken against afghan women. and instead of witnessing any kind of improvement, it's the opposite. i mean to say a few words about what's going on, and a few other recentce reports also. in terms of education, thinking that were afghan women were before in terms of the level of well-being on, you know, one through k and then also high school and then university. now girls only can attend school up to age 12. all are repressed and cannot

council education is severely cut and denied. i want to mention that. very synthetically there have been reports of arbitrary detention and arrests. a lot of them are founded on the so-called, well, how the hijab him whether it's appropriate on or not on an individual. that is why use the word arbitrary arrest and detention because have been many young women and even age 16 who then pulled aside and beaten and detained and threatened because of so-called they were not wearing their hijab properly. thirdly, it's very striking in terms of healthcare. if you are married and you have a male accompany you, you might very well make it to a healthcare facility. but on the other hand, if you are unmarried and there have been a number of reports that you are very much subjected to

again arbitrary detention and great brutality. and you may never make it actually to a healthcare facility. in that sector as well we have witnessed what is been cast as mental health issues. this brings up also about women, women in the workforce. because those that have to really be confined at home and they can't get out into the outside at all, so there have been very substantial number of cases of mental health issues because of being unfairly confined and not having any exposure really to the outside world, in life. and in that sense that's very, very serious and quite detrimental. and by the way think about it. it's very detrimental to actually the future of afghanistan, because the

workforce you can't only have as we know man. in fact, there was i believe and arab, you and arab report that basically talked about the middle east. it talked about any country that deprived half of its citizenry from the integrate in the workforce would not survive. that the economy would not be able to flourish. we witnessed the egregious impact here not only on women in afghanistan but also the economy. it is a. gender apartheid, thatt is being passed as per my lee just also in this regard mention, a report to talk about the unmarried women, to talk about the cases of mental health cases, and did talk about also the kind of draconian repressive veryres that have been widespread and really impacting any kind of substantial growth

before in terms of educational and educational ranks. so what does this forbode for the future of afghanistan? i would say that even right now, not very good. in terms of the well-being of citizens at large, in terms of a desire to be part of an economy. by the way. i should mention, when they were reporting on, are there any sectors where women surface? the one sector is a little bit in the economy but it is qualified. women can actually engaged in businesses but from their homes in terms of embroidery, in terms of any kind of contribution that may be a small, if you will, cast as self generated business, sewing, embroidery, things like that. and might be contributing a bit to the economy. as far as ngo involvement, the

record shows no, , that there's repression and actual no, you cannot be engaged. in terms of some humanitarian efforts, yes to some extent and a little bit where women are also working in healthcare facilities but yet the irony that others cannot even make it to healthcare facilities and have access. so what does it forbode come to let me answer that question? as i said not, it's that good, it's that good for the health of society. it's not good for the economic growth, and by the way, in terms of what the taliban itself said and professed at the very outset, it really flies totally against some of the statements they made about trying to be more open, more integrative. we haven't witnessed that at all. it's been the opposite. not good. >> as you also mention, this is that already definedr as gender

apartheid. one of our afghan photos actually wrote a piece about that. i think he is with us here today. but we're talking more and more about this, who were at the helm at various levels of government -- you were also with uris afghan women's council to ensure that women are not only protected but also have equal access to education, the workforce. we see a lots. of role models, although the course had to be evacuated. so there has been so much progress, right, before the withdrawal of u.s. troops how can the united states and other allies who invested so much in these efforts ensure that these programs continue with all these restrictions in place? >> this is an important question under really relish your ask me that question. you have to give me a moment. my answer will be a a little t longer on this one because i

really want to give a full and robustit answer. it's a key one. first, a word about the use afghan women's council. it was born at the outset of thinking about the seizure of, are seizure of wishart receipt -- wishart of receipt. all witnessed seeing definitely on tv women in burqas, what the record was during the previous period of the taliban, and then with him if you will, a liberation. and the opportunity for growth in afghanistan. from that standpoint use afghan women's council was born at that time, and to me you mentioned it but it want to underscore it. afghan women were very decisive. they for this council said we know what we want. we want education, number one, is the issue. work with us on growing that access to education for young

boys, but especially for young girls and at all levels, not just a younger level. secondly, the issue of healthcare because the maternal mortality rate was so high. and here there was tremendous progress in that area. third was entrepreneurship. i remember my first visit to afghanistan, and actually we only met a few women who actually were in mazar-e-sharif, and actuallyy were starting this micro lending. the second visit i made there we met with over 100 women at embassy who came in. they had all kinds of businesses. it showed if given the opportunity women will seize it and they will go for it, and it did indeed. and it also there was the issue of i'm going to put in its civil society but its governance, rule of law. i was shown a picture of women judges. there were many women were women

judges before. and women wanted to be back into law. they wanted to be in the parliament. they wanted to have a stake in the future and decision-making of afghanistan. so that was the fourth. later also came a working collaboration by used by the way as part of this. the u.s.-afghan council was very focused on that. it's been very engaged, so one. i want to say why an organization like that matters. it matters because it brings together a lot of organizations both threatun the united , abroad, and even some that are still working internally in afghanistan, as best as they can. in this sense i do want to recognize debbie hall and who is ebover there, if you just raise your hand. she is executive director from u.s.-afghan women's council is at georgetown university, our honorary chairs are former first

ladies laura bush and hillary clinton. and then we have the president of church and university jack to joy. we also have fills mark rebbe was also a type if you will arm to arm with jack, and also we have inn the state department which is important, the international women's office, to make sure -- who by the way is also a cochair. all important and a reference that because that actually keeps the very focused on programs. what are we doing, hack we move things forward? it's the only home but abroad. second, there are some official positions that are absolutely key. one is in the state department in addition to the ambassador and head of the international women's office there is a special representative whois data with afghanistan completely, completely. this is rima.

many of you know her. she was in doha with us. very important position. she kept on working with afghans, she's working with americans, working with others and she's also in the middle east, also pounding the pavement. she was her at the doha forum trying to bring this issue forward. i also want to recognize and mention the u.n., u.n. secretary general also appointed a woman who i knew years ago who was foreign minister of uzbekistan, rosa, who is the representative, and she, too, she just spoke in a very targeted weight about the statement and mental health and how we should be tackling it. why are these people important?i because they try to do the best in keeping the nation spotlight. and as you pointed out it's hard.. but now let me, why ask for the extra time. i actually brought a list. you can't imagine how many are still working in afghanistan.

i want to share this. i mention that our u.s.-afghan women councilmembers.i well, one woman runs a made by afghan women. very inspirational. it's hard, but the work within the confines here. can't harbor also embroidery. doctor -- some of the many women know. she is a fair. she wasas the hospital that, by the way, does have approval and it is d run by women. it's very helpful. she has the afghan institute of learning fund. enlighten a mind. all of these deal with education, health the eagle on the calendar i wouldn't want you all to resist because there's a lot of activity going on and it doesn't always get the credit it should and their work ethic is greatrk barriers. uplift afghan fund, the

foundation. i know here in d.c. many of us know it. they focus on youth in particular, the next generation. turquoise mountain has been there. i had the privilege of going when he went to afghanistan years ago, watching the handicraft, bringing back the beauty of afghan culture. it was amazing to us. leslie schweizer who runs the friends of the american university afghanistan, and she pounced with a bit and does go to afghanistan. eating with doha because the university had to transfer to doha qatari but she pounced the baby, keeps it forward -- pounds the pavement, all user inside afghanistan. the reason i want to mention and i will stop, that working in the u.s. what to mention the bush center. george w. bush and also mrs. bush and to the bush center

in dallas, texas, had really focus very heavily on this issue. and paula, this is especially for you. you know with the established? they established an afghan iranian women coalition. they're going to, and to try to connect in country and out of country both. why is it important? because they feel both of which should unite the women, the day aspr's in both cases and those inside should unite and be very strong in putting forward ideas, recommendations, and really getting notoriety for what they're trying to achieve for women. they are to be having a big launch here in washington in may on this issue, and a very excited about that initiative. i also might mention that the u.s.-afghan women's council also has almost anc launch on this university educational network of afghanet women.

and networks and online can be very, very helpful. there's also of course the george kent institute for women's peace and security. you've had them here and there doing phenomenal work and then the women for afghan women, , just, you know, i'm scratching the surface. i don't know if i hit everyone but i did want indicate there's a lot going on. so what needs to happen, everyone needs to continue to work, in government and image in the out of government, and then thirdly, it's absolutely essential especially to get the media. because it is true, this has been oner the back burner and it hasn't't been front and center d it deserves to be front and center. there are so many stories of courage, many stories about what, you know, by the way, individuals out in the united states who have no connection whatsoever to afghanistan came

and got involved in forging businesses years ago, and the stuck with it. those of stores that you know people will be heartened by, and that gives hope, that gives incentive, that gives a candidate to moderate of spirit that estate will last camaraderie of spirit and overtake the current crisis, , a tragedy that has befallen afghanistan. >> thank you for shedding light on all of these efforts that are still ongoing, and as you mentioned continuity and sustainability is key to that. i know that the afghan girls and women are grateful for the united states does that a lot of these organizations do, other countries in the west. but there's also muslim majority countries that should play an important role, countries like saudi arabia, qatar, united arab emirates and others have made

significant progress in their own countries when it comes to not only education andnd maternl health but even the workforce. saudi arabia just in the last two years they managed to increase female labor icatn to over i think 30% which is very impressive because it's very quickly. so what role can these muslim majority countries play to basically influence or dialogue with the taliban to ensure women are not only protected but have access to equal rights as men? >> great question. before he answered, one more footnote on the issue about all of these groups. do you know what's important here? i will say is that the women in afghanistan, those who are there, also feel inspired and

motivated. .. not forgotten. even with small projects. whether it is the embroidery. whether it is with >> whether it's with drugs because there are women like arzu, which means hope. youu know, there's still this drug initiative started by a member of the u.s. women's council. i just want to underscore that, because i know if i can give one example p i worked a great deal when we had the soviet union, and i'll never forget when nathan sharonsky came to the united states during the reagan administration. and the first thing you know that he said to president reagan when he was released, he said, you know i was in the gulag for so long, i've got real information, i heard nothing. but then sometimes people would

flip to me your speeches or that, you know, you would say something about lee and about our movement. that gave me the motivation that i must continue, my -- i must overcome the current hardships. and in that sense, i know that afghan women are very strong, very resilient, and i just wanted to say a that all of them who are working whether in afghanistan or outside, that lifeline is so key. and also the work that our governmental officials are doing, the ones i mentioned are important. middle east, very important question. the answer is an absolute resounding yes.. [laughter] yes. they have a pivotal role. so let me start with this, and i'm going to underscore what you said and actually bring it back, if i may. and you'll see how, we had at the state department during my time a meeting of actually women from the middle east and actually a discussion, and the

majoritye there were muslim won who, these were women, and some of them were representing, representative, you know, of their governments. and the discussion was on, you know, the issue about human rights worldwide. and you know what? there was an issue about a, well, aren't there projects that could be done that really have impact and and that those in the middle east can really make a difference? so the wilson center was really ahead ofof the curve, can and paula wrote a monograph on sharia with law. and it had various captainers -- chapters, you cowrote it, had various chapters looking at countries not just in the middle east,ka but worldwide on isn't t remarkable you can have sharia a law and at the same time beu a democracy? you don't have to be to be repressive, and you don't have to sup is press culture. i mean, all of that is just wrong, outright wrong. i'll never forget when we had our u.s.-afghan women's council

meeting. we felt if at the time it was important to have two women, i was cochair, and we had the head of the women 's min industry at the time, but -- ministry, but we also had a male. we had ab a dull la abdullah, who was the foreign minister. and true story, we were there at this meeting. and when abdullah abdullah was asked the question what are the projects that you think that are the important, he said, this monograph. why isn't it translated in push tuna and, you know -- push -- park a due? that's an example where countries on the outside who have such knowledge in particular and it's not where americans, and i think of you in the sense where you are americans, but you have that insight or, you have that connectivity, and that monograph also brought in awe a innocentic voices from the if various muslim-based i countries. the answer is, yes. and then also officially yes, 1000%. and then -- 100, and then

thirdly, i think defense of the american university of o afghanistan. qatar has brought in that university. we have t the privilege together of going to meet with them, which was very heart rendering, and hear not only just young women, but young men who have professional as prayingses and and want to advance themselves. i think that's an important step on the part of qatar in bringing in these refugees, housing them, giving them that type of opportunity. i would likein to see ore countries also do the same throughout the middle east. i would also welcome, like you said, those that can, in fact, also bring these issues to the forefront. and in this case, i think that a lot of the women who have made great strides, their connectivity with the women of afghanistan would absolutely be crucial. the state department has tried to hold some fora bringing them

together. i like the fact that the, through the bush center they're bringing together afghan-iranian women in this case through the diaspora and also for those inside. so, yes, yes, yes. there are so many ways of doing it. and i want to commend you and the middle east program here. the fact that you're holding this today, the fact that this isld also -- this has also beena spotlight for you with, it's integrated into your work. i think you have also, in your own contacts, have pushed this agenda with middle eastern countries. their voice can carry volumes, andea it's really crucial at ths particular time. >> thank you for that. and your mention of the new group joining afghan and iranian women, this reminds me of when the iranian protests were taking place after the death of mahsa amini. i was amazed at even at a time

when the taliban had basically started to, you know, increase their detentions and repressive measures that a university women stood up and protested in support of their iranian, you know, colleagues and sisters and friends. and that, to me, was absolutely fascinating to see, that they're still willing to risk everything knowing what, how high the stakes are. >> you know, another thing is and also discussions, official discussions. i think it's also been very important, this issue has been integrated in terms of u.s. official discussions whether with our interlocutors throughout the middle east, whether if our representatives thinking about tom west and also his, if you will, quote-unquote outreach to, you know, taliban.

and it's always front and center. and, you know, the tragedy there, the movement on that front has only been, you know, so much. but the answer is should that be stopped? thee no. you have -- no. you have to be persistent, it has to be sustained. but it's also these kinds of actions that matter, and that's why i wanted to take more of a moment and literally acknowledge the scale and the scope of still despite under regression presentation i'm not saying they're moving mountains, but the fact they are there trying to do their best to have a presence and to really, to do what they can to still engage and engage afghan women and try to push the dial forward. >> it's very important: now speak of the taliban, there are, of course, various opinions, you know, on the international arena whether the taliban should be reengaged or relations should be

normalized as a way to basically maybe m talk to the more moderae factions or individuals and influence some of their policies which so far have seemed to just targeted girls and women. where do you stand on this? i mean, i know where i stand on this, but tell all of us where you stand on this and why. >> i'd be delighted. i stand very firmly against it, and and i'll tell you why, and i want to say a few more details about the debate on both sides. the reason why i personally stand against it is because i don't genuinely believe that by actually normalization of the relationship that we're going to get results. already i know that u.s. officials is have worked rather hard actually to engage and to

actually try to move and promote this along. and there's been no traction. that's number one. >> yeah. >> secondly, there are those that get the argument, well, if you do this, then you get a legitimization. i'm not even -- i'm going to say, fair enough, i would, i think that's point to be made. but to me, what is more important is if you actually think that there would be some tangible, concrete actions. and i really don't see it. and i think that there have been really some strong efforts of testing the waters, of trying to see if that could be pushed forward. so i'm not the kind especially when you diplomatically do this in such a way and even in discussion, well, hey, if we do this, what can we expect, we've seen actually as i said based on and thinking about the promises that were made by the taliban and not only have they been

lived up to, but it's been the opposite, actual regression. so i don't see that as the solution here, quite frankly. let me get the other side. there have been those that have argued very forcefully for this. by the way, i mentioned rosa. i happen to know in that when she was asked this question, the u.n. secretary-general's rep, she said, oh, i'm not worried about legitimization. i think we should do this because i i think we should main make it part of our discourse. well, it already is part of the discourse, you know? it is. it definitely is. finish in every official, quote-unquote official, should i put it that way, engagement. andd not just with us. but this is multilaterally in so many different arenas, if you will. and i don't see that that's the solution. i mean, the solution is, quite frankly, for a change there. because we've seen then when there is a change, that what are

the opportunities that can be -- [inaudible] let me give one last. the first minister of women's affairs and also was for 17 years handling theaf human righs issue for afghanistan looking at it internally and reporting on afghanistan human rights during the 17 years of looking at from ghaani forward, excuse me, karzai forward. so she actually wrote a book recently, and it's called "outspoken." she's been asked this question outright. she didn't hesitate for one minute, and she said, no. the answer is no. he said i'm very pragmatic. if i saw that we could actually do something here, of course i would look at any if opportunity any way. but the answer's no. there's, there's nothing that this kind of normalization is going to produce in terms of really a normalization of

women's lives there. >> and the government of qatar has been officially asked by the u.s. government to, of course, be the interlocutor, and we've seen also those efforts, unfortunately, have not gone anywhere because they ended up, as you mentioned, doing what they wanted to do. and.at seems that that is the number one issue on their agenda. ambassador, you mentioned the american university of afghanistan. you were one of key individuals that also was there, i think, for the opening when the first stone was basically put there. and as you mentioned, i mean, i was struck with how brave and hopeful they were. but what is the future of the university? i mean, we have a number of

students in doha, you know, thanks to the government of qatar it's very generous of them to do that, but there are others that are not able, particularly women that are not able to go. what is the future for this university, and how can we also a help keep that hope that a lot of these young afghan women represented alive? >> first, one comment about the university itself and when it was thriving in afghanistan. one statement that i will never forget forget and made by an afghan young lady, she was asked the question why are you going to the university9 of afghanistan a, the american university of afghanistan when you could go to the madrassa down the street which is free? but the american university is not free. and she said the fundamental fact isve the ore may be free, t it's not free in terms of what a

it teaches. in terms to what i want to do and in terms of my if freedom of my own mind, my own thought, i want to go to the american university of afghanistan and do what i want to do. and so many of them, you know, they had to pay. and i want to mention that because to remind one's self of that. so, first, thanks go to qatar for the fact that it acted quickly in bringing them in. it is there. it is thriving there. so those that were able to get out there, i think that they have opportunities. there is also what's known in qatar, in doha, education cities where where there are a number of universities, georgetown has a one, texas a&m. i don't know, i don't believe all of them, but there are, like, five or six. and those are all provide opportunities for them to also matriculate into and connect with. but what'str the future here? i will pick out not just only

the american university of afghanistan, but it's everything i said about this focus on education. the fact that education is a number one issue and a priority issue. it was always for after began women, it still is -- afghan women, it still is. and in this case, like this university educational network that the online network that the u.s., american-afghan women's council has set up, i think that that's very key. i think also, by the way, with dr. sakina, she also does. you know, it's targeted, but again, it gives opportunities online. there are those that are also in the region, those that left afghanistan but are in india, some in pakistan, and there there are some programs that also try to continue that forward. it's hard, but my answer to you is,, as you can see, there are

ways of still connecting and insuring that education is front and center and and that there are some programmatic opportunities. thatra ideal? no, not. and by the way, what has happened to the american university of afghanistan in it's occupied by the taliban. it's not, you know, there are no courses there. it's not the vibrant university that it once was where you saw young women, young men. and i remember meeting the first she was, she ran for president, the first female president of the student body there. you know, you don't have any of that. so you have to work other ways of connecting in and giving them opportunity is. >> yes. >> on the outside, on the inside. the american university is one means but not the only. >> and if you remember in our meeting with the students back in december, one of these female students said that she's taking, you know, her key learnings from some of the courses she's

taking,then she's, she started her own whatsapp group, and so she's providing opportunities for others who did not have the opportunity to leave afghanistan. there are very small efforts that are bigger than what they look like because of the impact. >> that multiplier effect that you just identified is also crucial here during this period. absolutely. those students who can, in fact, the trainer of the train of the trainer and have that impact, it's so essential, so crucial. and if that's why going back to the network being established, i think, is a key one as well in this. because a network women feel part of, integrated and see others, and then out -- it grows and grows and grows. but this is a 10% priority for afghan women -- 100%. >> thank you, ambassador. so i'm going to switch gears a little bit from afghanistan. i think this is a question that

i have to ask on behalf of all a women in foreign policy and anymore security. you're one of the most englished career -- distinguished career women in this sector, and there are many other young women who also aspire to be in leadership positions in diplomacy and foreign policy, so what can you tell us about your journey, and what advice can you give some of the ewinger or wipe -- the younger women about the importance of women particularly in deployment city? >> -- diplomacy? >> well, thank you, that's a wonderful question. i would say there were several principles at least that have guided me and in terms of by own career. the first is, is get involved in what you enjoy and you're passionate about. finish i actually, i did my undergraduate work at georgetown, and i actually initially wanted to be many -- in pre-med. and my sister and my father --

my father was an educator, my mother was an educator -- and actually they said, no, no, why don't you try the school of foreign services. and i said, i don't think so. they said is, you won't lose out on anything, go for i. i got into that, and it was my passion. i realizedi i loved that. i just felt very drawn to that. having that kind of connectivity with other societies, others' cultures and histories, and so i never looked back. that's my first. my second is also don't be deterred by any barriers or obstacles. i think all of us, whether male or female, in our lyes have come d louvres have come up against barriers. i'd say my own mother, diana negroponte, she got to know my mother. when he met my mother mother in her 90s, my mother being in her 90s, she was very feisty. and she had a rule of thumb. and that was, you know, look, if

something turns you down, think of another way andan and just pw forward. and sometimes that works, sometimes it didn't work. but i liked that inspiration, that don't just get knocked down and withdraw. be resilient. and in that sense, i -- that was, i think, a rule of thumb for me and really inspired me in my own career. and when young women ask me the question, well, did you have certain cases where you felt if discriminated against because you were a female, and the irony and the interesting thing, the answer's no to that, actually, a number of my mentors were male who actually moved me along in my career -- [laughter] we mentioned madeleine albright also a was someone whoal had an impact in different ways in my life. and we had a commonality of interests because i'm of ukrainian kiss sent and she's -a

czech background. i worked at the white house at the national security council, i was brought in there at age 24. and actually for young men and women, and i was on the full taffe. actually, the issue was age, trying to say that this, well, no, i i have this experience. no, i could bring this to the forefront. i was very lucky, indeed. i was there during the reagan administration. and, actually, the various national security advisers were ones who believed strongly that you can't just only have those who are well experienced, but you have new thinking integrated in. and and i loved that about a them. all of the ones who were there during that period, i was there through six national security advisers, so all of them had that kind of rule of thumb. so i would say those were some of the main factors. being passionate, you know, if you're passionate about what you do and enjoy it, that's going to further you. don't be deterred by hard

knocks. and maybe i should mention -- and don't be discriminated or feel discriminated by age. but lastly, i would say i think it's the also important for you to know your brief. and, you know, in that sense it's not just forgive me for advancing because maybe you're a female, but really know your cebriefs and really embrace it d and show it that the you have it and that you know it. so those are some of the things that have really, i'm going to say, moved me along. now, i mentioned a madeleine albright story. >> yeah. >> she, i remember very often she'd mention a very funny story because this is also advice to younger women. she said, you know what sometimes got me a little down? i'm in an interagency meeting, and i'm there alone, and you have all these men. maybe it's me and one other woman. and she said, you know what happens? i'll give an idea and then the nobody says anything, and then there's another guy, another official, and he's saying the

exact same thing i said -- [laughter] and she said, boy, it bothered me. and then the other guy goes on and he goes, yeah, yoke, joe's exactly right, and it was like i never even said anything or said it. and then she said, but you know what saddened me? my s colleague, my female colleague didn't join in. and she said, come on, women. you've got to support one another. that's something that you should really do. and it's interesting that she said that and really stand the up in whatever setting it is, academia, think tank or government, it's important to actually speak up and also hope that there is this kind of network and camaraderie where womenam are really fending for themselves and advancing the careers of one another. >> thank you for that very important advice. thank you. so it's time to turn to questions from if our audience. so if you do have a question, please raise your hand and

identify yourself and then i'll also be taking some questions from or our online audience. i have a few. yes. >> by the way, i do know her, i already mentioned her. diana negroponte, really quite a force on behalf of women. we had the privilege of serving together on the freedomhouse board, and diana's done so much for women worldwide. >> ambassador dobriansky, thank you for introducing me. [laughter] afghanistan has an error -- era of leverage for women, and that is foreign investment. where is the mary barra of the automobile, b the truck, the industries which afghanistan needsch and we have shown can be led by women? if you focused on the grass roots, admirable, and we'll keep

at it. but let's look for business leaders who threw their industries -- through their industries can enter into afghanistan. >> well, you are 100%, as usual diana's 100% collecting what she's saying. she's absolutely correct. i will say though there's a challenge, okay? if inside afghanistan a, clearly now there isn't that kind of opportunity. but that doesn't mean there aren't women entrepreneurial leaders. you did hear me also a mention how my first visit we only met with a few micro lender ors, but then when i came back, there were a hundred women and they owned, youou know, a lumber business. and another one with a concrete factory, a kite store. and it went on. these, there were these proud women owners. and, yes, they could have their opportunity to grow their

business. rangeically, there's a halt to all of that, quite frankly. as i mentioned, by all accounts of the u.n. agencies going in and reporting on what's going on, the only women entrepreneurs where you have a fraction of movement, they're doing it from their homes. they're not doing it on the outside. in fact, women have been pulled out of, you know, overt work, being in a work environment. so yes, you are correct, i think there was going to be that movement forward. in fact, there was a women's federation, excuse me, a federation of women business owners that would actually get quite a bit of not only public funding, but private funding. i believe that is the wave of the future inside. outside, by the way, there are many accomplished afghan women. i mentioned the number of organizations. a foundation itself in terms of

miriam bayat. i mentioned -- if i pronounced it correctly, a council member. these are women, afghan women who really are making a difference if given that chance and opportunity even on the so.ide more they will are an impact. so you are correct to bring that into the mix. entrepreneurship and economic progress certainly breeds leverage, without a doubt. because you even see that's the one little space where there's some -- for afghan women but albeit in a very confined way. thank you. >> thank you. robert, senior vice president here at the -- >> also very well known here and also georgetown. >> thank you very much. >> you're welcome. >> forer being here today. and and if america erissa for organizing this to honor our wonderful colleague. paular was an amazing --

[speaking in native tongue] of the situation. i was curious, can you discuss the role of the die gas pa community -- diaspora community? i remember in a visit to doha amid the afghan female robotics team, and what happens to these individuals or that are going to comp outside, they're trained, you know, do they see themself going babbb to their country or are they looking to stay in the hosting countries where they're currently residing? >> thank you for raising that, asking that question. 100% crucial, critical, and they already are playing a key role. you're quite right to point out that there are those who do not want to stay here. they want to go back. they care about their country, they want it to grow. i have met many women educators, i've met women who are if business who want to go back and want to continue the work that theyey were doing. i could go on9 with the list in this regard. so, yes, i'd say there's a

fervent, a passion of taking, applying their knowledge, the way in which they're able to grow it now and make great use of it now whether they're in the united states, whether in europe or they're in africa, wherever they may be. because afghan women and afghan men landed in different locations across the globe. but i know the ones that i've met, i haven't met one that hasn't expressed a desire to go back and to really make a difference. and there's that commitment. so you're right about the robotics. there are women athletes who, by the way, women who are in the police force, by the way -- . [laughter] women who are in the mill taker by the way, i mean -- military, by the way. and so women who were in foreign policy. so, yes, yes, yes.

let me connect a few dots here. i also previewed for the bush center the coalition of afghan and iran women. it a actually emphasizes the diaspora because there's a very sizable iranian and after began -- afghan diaspora bringing them together because they don't normally or necessarily have come together. so they're actually organizing great in that sense of bringing them together and then also with women who are in iran and in afghanistan. so absolutely key in this, thank you for highlighting that. we've had two questions that really spotlight other areas that are crucial for growing at this time, and that's lucky some of the programs that are trying to really ensure that we get a multiplier effectwe and get new ideas, actually build upon whether it'san women entrepreneurs, for that matter the diaspora which is crucial. 100 percent. >> thank you.

one more question. >> i see it, if you want to take the two -- >> yeah, we should probably -- >> thank you very much. ii was amazed that you rememberd that publication. >> may i just say this? if i apologize for interrupting. you had to be there because all of us were listening to abdullah abdullah, the foreign minister, and then he said the best thing that we must do is this, and is we all were, like -- [laughter] so, yes, i remember that. it's very significant and a tribute to you. >> and the wilson center -- >> exactly. >> and -- >> as the can cochair with you, or the co-author.

>> exactly.. i wanted to give her the credit. and i haven't been back to iran in a number of years, but before that during that short, that period of the first -- [inaudible] and you would see women at the universities, women studying at a iranian universities and would can them, why? what are you doing here? and they would -- as soon as they go, we go back. and i guess we have a proif negatives. my question to you is really seriously do you have not a wish, but a hope that this will change again, and what will it take to bring a back again what

we have after the -- [inaudible] that's number one. and number two, i also wanted to mention that we hosted that at thee center -- [inaudible] on her visit to washington with, she came to the wilson center. both times i think they were afghanny women and egyptian women if i'm not mistaken. they were here. so this is a good place to have them back again. [inaudible conversations] >> and finally you mentioned madeleine albright. she always used to say and repeated here that there is a special place in hell for women

who don't support other women. [laughter] and i want to also -- who started the and invited secretary albright to bet here. and secretary albright was wonderful to come and give us a lot of courage more for our colleague women. as i said truthfully, i responded immediately, i said, yes, sign me up. but a fast comment, two fast comments. i did not hear that statement about, from madeleine albright. i heard or the first, but i have to remember that one. [laughter] and or forgive me, i did not recognize you because you usually keep your glasses down.

so very lovely to see you. but my answer to your first question, i really want to say that is, yes, i feel positive it will happen, 100%. 100%. by the way, not just only for afghanistan, but for iran. i believe, i believe firmly in the free spirit of the -- well, the spirit of -- excuse me. let me put it this way with, i believe in the human spirit, that it will never be depressed, that that is something that's common across the globe no matter what country, what culture you're in. people want to live their lives. and not be repressed in the way in which they live. and in that sense, i'm confident that we will see a change in both places. and in that sense, human rights of women, men, children will indeed prevail. 100 percent. and i will convey your message to the bush center. i will be glad -- it's up to

you, if you want to take -- i'll give quick answers. >> we have two questions, so let's hear both your questions and then we'll give you an opportunity, ambassador, to respond. please go ahead. >> hi, i'm mia baxley, i'm the global -- fellow at peace for common ground, and we do a lot of work with civil society organizations in afghanistan and elsewhere around the world where we work. so what is your outlook on on the state of women-led societal development and peace keeping in particular? or a peace building? not peace keeping, that's different. >> thank you. and also i feel badly, there's a young man here, he had his -- yes. yeah. if he also -- do you want to take the nike i open you didn't mind my -- >> no, no, no, not at all. please go ahead. >> thank you,' ambassador, for being here today and your

remarks. my name is stacy, i'm from the international civil society action network, or ican, we spear ifhead a global alliance for security leadership of women-led peace building organizations including over 10 afghan women-led organizations. as you know and have spoken to, afghan women are extremely capable, well mobilized and organized and have been very persistent in their advocacy in negotiations of political processes in their country and now to try to respond to prevent and mitigate the violence that's happening in response to the dire humanitarian situation. my question is given the continued roadblocks that many of them are facing locally, what do you see from your experience as some of the strategic entry points for the political engagement and leverage right now to be able to improve and change the situation and get --

the u.s. in our history, what can we do now at this point in time to support them. thank you. >> thank you. and we'll take the last question from you, please. thank you. >> my name is -- [inaudible] the from afghanistan international news outlet. i have a question. so you mentioned that engagement with with the taliban regime might not work. so i was wondering which kind of solution you are thinking of, what should be done if engagement with the taliban doesn't work? and if you have time, you mentioned that what the taliban are doing with african women now i is gender appetite. so if that is -- which kind of responsibility international community, and the estates including the united states government have to take an action. thank you.

>> thank you. let me try to go through these. and forgive america i'm going to give brief answer as. so on peace keeping, my answer is 100 president, that's the key issue. -- 100%. and looking at global peace keeping, i can interpret your question a numberi of ways. when i worked at the state department, i had refugees and a high percentage of women as part of, if you will, peace keeping because they were removed from society, you know, or ended up in refugee camps. was it ideal? absolutely not. you had women who were brutalized, women who were trafficked. so, you know, i'm just scratching the surface in answering your question. but basically it's an area that's absolutely crucial, it's key, it's one in which also there have been real challenges for women. and and i'vees to only given you two examples, i mean, in terms of particularly trafficked women and when it correlate with refugee camps and the kind of

also arbitrary arrest detention that takes place. in terms of what's the best entry point, i'm going to take your question that way. first, there is no silver bullet. i think my answers to merissa have indicated that, and i seriously mean this, my answer to you is all of the above. seriously. all ofof the above i i think are key entry points here because it's, at this time it's tragic what's going on. i think that that every step counts. so, no, there is no one single step that's going to bring with aboutgl a change. andd forgive me, i'm answering the first one because i heard or the first one, i didn't quite catch your second one, i'm sorry. but let me give you the answer to the first one. to clarify, the question was about normalization. way, there is already engagement that takes place, and and i -- my comment was not

about, you know, should we do engagement or not. we are. the state department through tom west, he, as you mentioned through qatar, does engage, you know, in discussion and ands there is discussion with the taliban. but there has been no traction, traction that has demonstrate thed any kind of positive concrete results to the benefit of not just only afghan women, but afghan society at large. so my comment was i do not support normalization because one has that seen through this engagement that has happened with the a qataris there has been no concrete result. >> thank you very much. we are running out of time. thisis was a very engaging discussion. thank you so much for highlighting all the work that is being done and shedding light

on hope for the future. it's very important for us to keep the conversation going to make sure that that hope is alive. and thanke you to talle for also passion on the torch to all of us to continue this work here at the wilson center not only through this program, but other programs as well including the maternal health initiative that the does splendid work on growth and women and my other colleagues as a well. so thank you and we hope to see you in the future. thank you. >> and thank you again. [applause] [inaudible conversations]

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opinion that matters the most is your own, this is what democracy looks like. c-span, powered by cable. >> welcome back. we're joined now by steve israel, he's a former u.s. representative, a democrat to new york, and also a global affairs director at the cornell university institute of politics. steve, welcome to the program. >> guest: it's great to be with you, goodrn morning. >> host: so democrat tom suozzi won the special election last night. what's your reaction to that? >> guest: well, i guess i have several takeaways, first, you know, i used to represent the district that suozzi just won in the special election and chaired the democratic national campaign committee, so i think i have a from pretty good feel for vents on the ground. the first takeaway is it wasn't even close. everybody was -- up until about a 6:00 new york time yesterday, three hours from the closing of the polls, republicans were really beating their chest. they thought they had this in the bag, and virtually everybody

on both sides of the aisle were suggesting that no matter who won, it was going to be inside the margin of error or -- error. no, it was about 8oints. so this was a very convincing win for mr. swoz city. >> and -- swoz si. and if second rhode island, this is a blue blueprint for -- secondly, this is a blueprint for november on a candidate who figured out how to message on some contentious issues like the border. theer republican tried to make e borders the single issue in the campaign. many democrats run away from that issue. tom suozzi not only leaned into it, but he doubled down, tripled down. he d flipped the script on bordr issues on the republican, and that helped him win. >> host: what do you know about a tom swoz city? do you know him personally? >> guest: i do.rs he succeeded me in congress. i've known him for quite some time. he's an establishment, very well known, high profile political

figure on long island are. he was the mayor of the smallty of glen cove in the 1990s -- city of glen cove in the 1990s. he was county executive for a couple of terms. ran for congress, won, served in the house, and i left unindicted, undefeated, which is a triumph.hi so i know him quite well, and i really do believe that he was perhaps the only candidate who could win this special in a district that has been trending republican because of his defiant centrism, his moderation and a very proactive measure on crime and borders. >> host: well, you -- we did talk about immigration, but you just mentioned crime. so how did that issue may out? >> guest: you know, i think the two are often interchangeable in the minds of many voters, and so i'll give you a case study. the border plays with various degrees of salience in suburban districts. in some districts it's a big deal, in other districts it's a talking point.

in this district it is a big deal. why? because unlike many other congressional districts, new yorkers have ace woken, you know, two, three times a week to realtime headlines about busloads of migrants coming in from texas to new york. put aside the merits or demerits of that particular news, it was with pervasive, the narrative was pervasive. and so new yorkers were in real time very anxious about a hose headlines. meanwhile -- those headlines. mean while, just a few weeks ago there was disturbing, graphic footage w of migrants who assaulted new york city police officers. that is a crime. andd so this continued narrative of a crime and migrants really did penetrate. and then finally, the message environment was set by republicans and, quite honestly, in my view progressive democrats.

several year years ago when progressivera democrats wanted , we're talking about defunding the police and cashless bail. that's a bad message environment. that's bad message framing in a suburban moderate electorate. and so you've got the sense democrats were perhaps weak on crime, we're not doing enough on theno border. tom swoz si would not allow himself to be defined by those messages. and as a i said, he flipped the script on his opponent, mazi if pilip. >> host: if you'd like to scwown the conversation with former congressman steve israel, republicans, 202-748-8001. and democrats, 202-748-8000. independents, 202-748-8002. well, i want to play you a portion of twom swaz si's victory speech from yesterday and have you comment on what the lessons are for democrats and the lessons for republicans as well. [applause] >> this race was fought amidst a

closely divided electorate much like our whole country. this race was centered on immigration ande the economy mh like the issues all across our country. we won this race, we, you won this race -- [cheers and applause] because we addressed the issues, and we found a way to bind our divisions. [applause] you know, what we just saw with the protests tonight, okay? there are divisions in our country where people can't even a talk to each ore. each other. all a they can do is yell and scream atye each other. and that's not the answer to the problems we nays our country. we face in our country. the answer is to try to bring people of goodwill together to

trywi and find that common grou. >> host: steve, what do you think of that, and is that possible, bringing people together in the current environment? >> guest: oh, gosh, i hope so, because we need it desperately. that message was just perfect for the quintessentially moderate suburb. again, i represented it for many years. long islanders are not to the far left, they're not to the far right, they're not the squad, they're not maga. they expect their elected officials to compromise, to cross the aisle and problem solve, to get things done. and tom swoz city, as a centrist, clearly tapped into that. he did what is special in -- essential in politics. he met voters where they are. you've got to do that in politics. you've got to meet them where they are and then try and bring them along. and he did that first by reminding them that he has a career of being a centrist in searchng of common ground and, secondly,nd by affirming their

anxieties over the issues that we discussed, mainly migration and crime. i hope that this is an example to members of congress marley those on the extremes, that if you want to win, you've got to be able to talk about common ground. it's not just good government that's going tod. get us and moe us forward, it's just a good political strategy. and so i hope that a this is a signal to those who want to move if further left and further right that thefu smart politics and the effect of policy is to constantly seek that common ground. you're not going to get everything you want, by the way. the constitution was not designed to give one party everything they want. it was designed to find the right compromise, the right balance, and we need that more than anything else. ande and i'm, the changes i've seen since i left congress in 2017 starkly remind me of the need to find that common ground. >> host: all right. let's go to the phones.

will in port washington, new york. democrat. good morning. ing. >> caller: good afternoon -- good morning,de crush c-span, thank you. i'll be succinct, but i think i'd like to open something for mr. israel to ec e employer. welcome, sir. my bone bona fide, i was bone -- born in bayside, new york. here's my take. the signs of hyperbole on immigration and there was pushback, but it was special. i wonder, mr. israel, and it's not play on words, is that israel questioned in a district that has two towns that i admire as a much as the ones that i grew up in, was there a picture in terms of pilip? you with the last name and probably understanding jewish-american politics and the fact that this thing did go for swoz oh who did -- >> guest: well, it's so astute

and great to hear from a former constituent in fort washington. whathe will is referring to is e unique, made for the headlines background of the republican candidate. an african-american woman born in ethiopia, she served in the israel defense forces, and you couldn't have a more compelling bio for a post-october 7th political environment. i think that the republicans were banking on the fact that israel would play predominantly, particularly in areas of the third congressional district that have experienced a very significant growth in orthodox can jewish voters and former persian-jewish voters. talking about a place called peninsula and king's point, as you know, will. that area used to be a bastion of blue but now predominantly on israel it has turned red.

voters there are very, very sensitive to u.s.-israeli relations, want a strong relationship between the u.s. and israel. and i think the republicans were banking on that to peel democratic voters away from tom swaz si. in the end, people are going to have to take a look at, you know with, some of the day. i appears that great neck peninsula where those more conservative jewish voters may have overperformed for republicans butrm not nearly enough. and there were other issues on the minds of voters in this specialth election. so i think that the republicans may have overplayed their hands on that. he>> we've got a text from billi bryan, ohio. can you please a him how anyone like george george santos got elected in the first mace? >> guest: what a great question, bill. look, it was complacency.

no -- first of all, nobody believed that george santos was going to win, and so nobody paid attention to him. finish secondly, even the republicans didn't believe that george santos was going to win, and so they didn't vet him. thirdly, the opposition research on santos, it was there, but this was a sense in the democratic campaign that we don't really need to use it because this guy is not going to win the district. remember, or joe biden won the district by 8 points in 2020. two years later, there's a sense that, you know, the district had the democratic gravity, nobody even knows who george santos is, we can win it without going negative. and then finally, this is the a real problem, i think, long term, structural problem, local journalism has really imploded across the country. andco so in the old days, you hd a bunch of newspapers with good budgets for investigative journalism that paid attention to these kinds of candidates. that didn't happen. he was not vetted, he was not

investigated until it was too late. so he connived and contrived his way into the house of representatives. but here's the goodd news. my former congressional district has done america an extraordinary public service, because we actually got democrats and republicans together in the house of representatives to agree on expelling george santos. so our sin was sending him, but our -- to the public was getting true bipartisan accord to kick him out. >> host: another caller in new york, this time rochester. democrat, dorothy. good morning. >> caller: good morning. i'm calling about there's things that i don't understand, so if i soundnd a little not too educat, but i am so -- i'm pro-palestine because i feel like they've been misused like we have as a black person. and as far as ukraine go, i feel

that too much of my money goes over there. i'm old and don't get any food stamps. and and i'm 79 and live on a fixed income, and i think some of that money needs to go here to us. and i thank you very much. >> guest: well, dorothy, thank you. you have ath great member of congress in joe borelli in rochester. he works very hard. by the way, my name is israel. i have a 100% voting record for u.s.-israeli -- i think it is outrageous that a terrorist organization like hamas would subject its own people to degradation and deprivation, would usede them as human shiel, would receive billions of dollars in funding and not invest it in education and and a future for their people, but instead invest it in rockets that attacked israel without any

provocation. so anyone who supports human rights for palestinians and a future for palestinians and a two-state solution should, shoulden condemn hamas' complete irresponsible and quite honestly animalistic treatment of their own people. on ukraine, you know, i don't think it's, i don't think it's mutually exclusive. we can make investments in prorochester, we can make investments in infrastructure. the biden administration has been doing that, making those critical investments in growing our economy. .. and we invite vladimir putin to invade nato countries, the cost to us, the cost to you, dorothy, with the extraordinary those

long-term cost. we cannot allow a dictator to attack our allies, to subvert democracy, , to take over huge swaths of europe and believe we can just kind of live within our own borders, protected by two countries. world war ii taught us that's just not an option. we've got to do both. we got to prioritize. how do you prioritize? how do you make sure you could make investments in america's middle-class and working families and at the same time support defense and the military? c it's not that complicated. maybe we should stop subsidizing oil companies who don't meet taxpayers help. maybe we should start raising revenueses by asking the very richest of the richest of the richest in america to come up with a little more so that we can protect and secure rochester and also protect and secure i was around the world and support our troops. those are the right priorities

for america. >> jim in winter park, florida, republican good morning. >> good morning. a little history of myself. i lived in new york until 1984. born and raised in the bronx, moved to central long island. watched last night to see was going on and now live in winter park, florida. i hope, my hope is that this gentleman that when the election is truly what he represented last night. we need democrats to start trying to work along with republicans rather than the vitriol spewing that we get from hakeem jeffries. ohif you watch mike johnson whos the speaker of the house, he is very calm. he doesn't, he speaks nicely. i don't hear yelling and screaming about everything. when you see y jeffrey, on the first thing out of his mouth is maga this, maga