but the actual delegation that went to chicago was very strongly seward and boy, they had a great time. they had a lot of money and they they had crates and crates of champagne to play the and it's it's very interesting how hard we'd work to get nominated and how really he was crafty in many ways. but just the moment had passed and the lincoln's men were even craftier. so it's a very interesting story. thank you much, everybody. i'm chris fernie, a member of the lincoln forum executive

committee. and we will get right touction o wonderful speakers this morning. edna greene medford, the grae dame of 19 century after american historians. a frequent speaker and moderator. our lincoln forum, a member of the forum's executive committee and recognized star on various c-span programing. edna holds degrees hampton university and the university of illinois and a ph.d. from the university of professor of history emerita at howard, where she also as the chair of the department history and interim dean, the college of arts and sciences she is the author of lincoln and emancipation proclamation.of the three views she was a recipient

of the john wise simon a lifetime achievement association and was previously inducted as a of the lincoln academy of illinois and awarded thes highet honor by the governor of illinois. for her study of the president matthew norman is, associate professor of history at the university of cincinnati blue. ash college educated knox college and the university of illinois, urbana-champaign, where earned his ph.d. he served earlier as aqctinof civera studg professor right here at gettysburg college. matt has contributed chapters to our beloved abraham african american war veterans and abraham lincoln, war and memory and, fraught with great difficulty. lincoln and reconstruction.

his labors of love also include 8serving coeditor with fred lee hord. of knowing him by heart. african-americans on abraham lincoln. nt of our program allows us to eavesdrop on a conversation between and matt as they discuss the heartwarming emotional and keenly important relationship between president lincoln and black americans wh by. i give you professors and norman. good morning can everyone hear me? excellent. excellent. benjamin quarrels, who was a pioneer african-american history in author of the book lincoln and the --, along with several the civil war, frederick douglass. he did a book on

african-american in the american revolution. so and a number of books. he was a true pioneer in african-american history. i he said many, many years ago in t sixties that lincoln became lincoln because of the --. and it was the latter who first reflected the image of lincoln. that was to live. in other words, it was the african-american and who actually created and encouraged the great emancipator image. and so quarrels, i think, was was partiay right even before lincoln issued the proclaimed, frederick douglass had said that enslaved people had credited jlincoln with some things that e had not achieved yet. and so they were already predisposed to see lincoln as a great emancipator. and in the decades that followed

the war, black leaders fed the emancipator image of lincoln for the purpose of both encouraging ■=african-americans to be worthy of lincoln's sacrifice and to remind white americans that they should finish thelincoln begun , but once the image was accepted by americans, there was no room for criticism of any action or in action. lincoln took so when? in 1922, w.e.b. dubois wrote a very assessmentthan he was roun, and he actually had to write what some of us think was a retraction to sort of smooth the ruffled feathers a bit.

and so one of the things that i hink we all need to remember, he says lincoln big enough to be inconsistent that just because he didn't do as quickly as some african americans and other americans would have, there was so much that he had done. so to criticize is one aspect of him did mean that african-american or anyone else saw him unworthy of so what professor norman and professor who could not be with us today, what they've accomplished with this book and i do absolute utterly love the book. there's so much here for us to to put out. i had to. what they've accomplished in this volume is volume is to show that african-americans always a nuanced view of lincoln and that the of african-americans toward. our 16th president was never

monolithic. so, you know, we sometimes think that there was a period time when african-americans ■ó:

undergraduate at knox, and he said and he had read some of the things i'd published. and he said, well, we do a project together. i said, okay, fred, what did you have in mind? and he said, well, what about something african-americans, lincoln? i said, that's a great topic. can we narrow it down a little? andid, well, has ever done an anthology of black writings on lincoln. that's that's a great idea. and so we started working on in 2011 and what we put together a is an anthology of black writings on lincoln that begins witfr douglass in 1858 when he first takes notice of lincoln. and when we started this project earlier in the century we thought a gotopping poin would 2009 with the lincoln and president obama's speech in

springfield. and so what we found hundreds of documents and the the size of the book might suggest that we didn't leave anything but we actually did we were we we made i think i hope judicious select ones. but when corell says that lincolnafrican-americans, i hopt people can see with the over hundred 50 voices we've assembled here is just how important african-americans have been in shaping how we remember abraham lincoln, particular as the great emancipator. and so you can see how these views evolved over how things changed, perhaps how things didn't change. and so i think quarrels absolutely correct. there to suggest the central city african-americansq in we view lincoln and i hope that that people will look at this book and see see a different side of.

i was surprised by or pleasantly by the diversity of as historiay to rely on frederick douglass when we're looking at how african-americans are respond to what lincoln is doing. and i think we do that because was so eloquent and he was so prolific. his about absolutely everything. he had three newspapers you know so you can find those kinds of things easily. but what you've done here is lot of people that most of you will have never of. and these are ordinary people, soldiers, ministers others are mothers writing to lincoln about their and telling him you know, he needs to protect them more. soldiers writing about unequal and that kind of thing. and you're also looking a diversity of

letters, speech is editorials, poetry, even. and so i think it kind of flavoe don't in the in the regular, you know, history books. so was vy mu pleased that. tell us a little bit about the people who you have been included. well, before we do that, tellerd have used. how did you choose these? there are there's that. when we got into it, we had no idea. i mean, we had some idea, but we had no idea about the depth and breadth of sources that we would ■ and so in the selection process, we we didn't have an agenda other than to present people with a wideie find soldiers somf whom are very critical of lincoln, some of whom are very

favorable towards. so we have people who are very positive people who are very negative. douglas, of course, is in there, but he's just one of over 150. so there's there's people like amos beeman, who was a congregational minisr and he commemorates first anniversary of the emancipation proclamation in 1864. and i think he reflects a lot of this complexity that weee this e emancipation proclamation makes lincoln but he also says that lincoln is f in the human science of freedom. and i really love that phrase, human science of freedom. so the emancipation proclamation in itself was not perfect. lincoln was not perfect. and african-americans out these s. but at the same time, they work to make the proclamation more perfect through, their words and

through theirabsolutely. i got the impression, your book, that the response of african-americans lincoln it was not so much it was not linear terms of, you know, love for lincoln. 1863 and dislike of lincoln after lauren bennett's first 1968 article in ebony and then his book it was more about what lincoln was doing or was not doing at any given time. and so■# you see the shift in attitude as a consequence. so, for instance if lincoln is criticized.t colonization, he's absolutely. they are some people who are supporting his colonization schemes because african-americans were invve con decided to this, but they saw it not as colonizing as immigration. and differently.

if he was talking, say, about just emancipation, his views on emancipation. and we know that lincoln's views on were that it should gradual it be done with the consent of the■ó owners of enslaved people that. it should be compensated not to the enslaved person, but compensation to the owners and colonization. and so there many and there were many americans, just african-americans, but there were many american eyes, mostly abolitionist who felt that he was slow. they didn't understand why lincoln's idea of deportation, his his his name for colonization and why that needed to go with emancipation, why there couldn't be emancipation. so you have a lot of people respond ending to that. this idea of accepting black

soldiers into the military. many, many african-americans writing to him, encouraging him to aep as and of course lincoln and congress in general did not feel that black men would be brave to ane to toe with their former owners on the battlefield. boy, did they prove wrong. and e union army needed men, they decide to bring black men in. and then once black were in the military, there was the issue unequal pay and unequal treatment. so if you could talk us a bit about how black people responded, some of those issues. sure. well, it's very interesting when douglass first takes notice of lincoln, 1858, it's in response to lincoln's divided speech. and douglass is very■■5

but then when when lincoln is nominated and then in his first inaugural address, douglass and other african-americans are quite critical. they think, well, we've i thought elected an anti-slavery president. why is he offering all of concessions to the rebels? but then once lincoln issues preliminary proclamation, it's really remarkable how how begin to change. and you have the enlistment of black and some of them. one of my favorite items in the , a letter from john proctor and in south carolina. and he's freed emancipation proclamation and he writes to lincoln in the spring of 1863. and he talks about how he's been freed, how he has in the army, how he's looking forward to a little bit of revenge on his on his masters former master. but■8 but then he says to linco,

he apologizes for his writing. he's writing he says, the only education i had i stole from my master, former master. and then he says. my one regret is that i won't have the pleasure seeing you eyes. and then he writes to lincoln, please remember me to my fellow citizens of the united states. and i think that letter encapsulates how the emancipation proclamation and the enlistment of black soldiers could be. so moving. but then we also have letters public letters written by a soldier in the fifth massachusetts cavalry. he wrote under a pseudonym, i wish know exactly who he was, but he wrote under a pseudonym. and he writes in an open letter summer, 1864. so the election campaign is starting to ramp up and says, i don't think black people should support lincoln.

he supported colonization. black soldiers aren't being treated equally. he has a long list of reasons black people shod not support lincoln. and then the democrats nominate general writes. a follow up letter a few weeks later. and he says, i still don't like lincoln. that much, but he'll be way better than than mcclellan. so you see in those two examples, the the differences. and then as you move forward in time, it becomes even more fascinating us to see these these different nuanced views of lincoln. certainly you have you have douglass. but then you have others. there's there's one i really like from 1909. and so you find african-americans celebrating lincoln's birthday before whitee

centennial, this is a big deal and an increasing of white people are also celeating. lincoln's birthday. but what happens by 19 nine is you have white southerners celebrating lincoln's birthday as well. and you see lincoln's image being used as kind of a bridge to reconciliation. and at the same time see black voices pushing against that. and there's a professor. he's a professor, virginia. and he, i think, really these nuances and complexities is where he says that lincoln supported before issuing the emancipation proclamation. but lincoln believed the declaration ofepdence, and he believed that it applied to people at a time very few white people were willing to to hold those beliefs. so just that one item from

1990, you see these how you can you can admire lincoln and praise him. and he says lincoln will be immortal. but then at the same time he says he's he's not perfect. he's not perfect now. although we acknowledge that is this nuance attitude about lincoln. i think we would have to agree that sometime between 1863 and 2023, there has been shift in terms of about lincoln. and historiansican attitudes abt that. it's and historians some historians have said it's a consequence oflack having their own heroes. dr. king and in other who were part of the civil rights that became aware of the role that they played in terms liberation, both being in tharmy and, just

liberating themselves as well. what do you think the reason is that there has been sort by a downturn? ■>i don't think it's as bad as some historians have suggested, but there certainly been a bit of a shift. yes, i think it that it's been maybe exaggerated a bit when we do have lauren seminal essay from 1968 thatame inmagazine ase question, was abe lincoln a white supremacist? and bennett emphatically, yes, yes. he was. w

all very critical of lincoln. but at the same, you have benjamin corales publibook and e franklin, who made a really great speech here in gettysburg on thegettysburg address in 196. and in that speech, franklin says he's responding to. the white citizens councils and had published these editorials, quoting from lincoln-douglas debates, the part of the debates the fourth debate at charleston, where lincoln says that he doesn't believe in the social and political equality of the white and black races and the white citizens council was using this to argue that if lincoln were alive in the 1960s, he would be opposed to, like the voting rights act, the civil rights act of 1964, and franklin, you would have to be deranged to to into a racist wht

the white citizens councils. so but i do think you you see, even to the 1930s when you african-americans are beginning to support it, the democratic party, and they're l. and we have a speech from arthur mitchell, who's the first african-american democrat in congress. and he gets a really hard time from republican. there's a republican from kentucky just denounces him on the floor of the house. how dare you leave the party of lincoln? this is an act of disloyalty. and so there's a lot of interesting things happening in the thirties as■l well, when whn african-american voting behavior begins to change and many are leaving the party of lincoln. but then we also have an example from 1936 and and this is where historical research be very serendipitous. and i found this in newspaper and it's a woman living in terre haute, indiana named grace

evans. and and she gives this speech where she's saying, i'm not leaving the party of able to hae a marriage in and do things that i've done in my life. and there's way i'm leaving the republican party. and i this to fred. and he well, grace evans in my father's church. so fred's fred's father was minister in indiana. and as it turned out this this woman was a member of, fred's so she she's in the book as well. and course. excuse me. of course, african-americans leaving the republican■ party te 1930s because the republican party is becoming more and more conservative and they are ■&supporting know justices who are. and there's one instance where mothers are sent to europe to ask to visit graves of their

their sons who've died in world war. and white women are sent under regularransportation and black women are sent with inferior. so you have those kinds of things that are occurring. and the democraticar better. african-americans, by that time. and certainly it doesn't help. it hurt that eleanor roosevelt steps in from time t time, you know, to do things that are very gratifying to african-americans. you notice i didn't say franklin because, the story is■h still ot about frank. i mean, you know, there's there's some things he did, but there some other things. but it was eleanor who actually? african-americans embraced. i think, speaking of the 1930s. you an opportunity to look at the wpa slave and so you know we can assume during the war an immediate lie after the war african-americans who had been enslaved would certainly see

lincoln probably as a great emancipator. but what are they thinking after they've been out of slavery for a number of years and in the middle of the depression? mm. that's a fascinating collection of sources. and i went through all of those interviews and you'll find in the bookom s selections don't we don't include everything but i hope we include a kind of a representative sample of those. fascinating interviews. so you have some people, as you might expect, who say lincoln is the great emancipate of his father, abraham, grateful for all that he did. and then there are there are people who say, well, he he may have freed us, but he didn't want to. and when he anything to help ust established as as freed people. and then what really me about the wpa interviews are the people who say that they met

lincoln and lincoln emerges as this kind of mythological character. and so they talk about this shabbily dressed man and one of them says, well, this shabbily dressed guy, a gold cane behind the door. and then he left. and then he wrote back and he said, i'm abraham lincoln. and so you have these stories about these encounters with lincoln, which didn't happen. but shows just how powerful lincoln is as a as ■mmn image. he's become a part of african-american folklore. yes, it is just fascinating. you know, lincoln shows up. he has dinner. yes. or he sleeps in the masters bed. you know it's you know, that should have been a riot if it had actually happened. but, yeah, it's just amazing how they sort incorporate him into

culture. yes. just amazing. hmm. what, if anything, did you abouf these sources? mm hmm. well, we we really w't sure what we were getting into. and when we started we made, like, a master list of people we thought we would want to include, that we would probably say. but once we started digging into newspaper and periodically magazines and other just the the very city and the depth and how persistent was time and we look a lot at emancipation day celebration and how ire and we s of speeches that are given at these celebrate firsts over decades and u see both of lincoln you see some criticism.

and there's also always references to the important pla. so i think the thing that impressed me the most was just the sources and and just the depth of feeling that that endured for so long. i washe the source that you i can't remember the name was it it was it call learned to dunbar's wife i believe. alice dunbar. yeah i think she was the one i guess she was talking about lincoln douglass as both of them as emancipated, both of them as a minister. so could you talk a little bit about that? sure yeah, that's that's an item february and so lincoln's birthdays in february and then they're commemorating douglass's well. and alice dunbar, nelson is

about how lincoln is a great ancipaéytor. and we have to remember, keep his memory alive, honor. but we also have to commemorate douglass as well. and so what you find with her example, also the we have some interesting documents from members of the national association of colored women. mm hmm.erested in, both lincoln and douglass in the 1920s. and they would have these lincoln douglas days, where they her and make speeches and talk about the significance of both lincoln and douglass. so they're kind of twin twin emancipator. and she's saying that black children certainly should honor lincoln, but they should honor douglass as well. they should honor one of their own. i thought her piece was one of the best that was included. and are marvelous sources in here. but that one really struck home.

yeah, absolutely. so let me ask you this. why did you think americans are so invested in lincoln as, the great emancipator? i you know, i always c-span is broadcasting something that i said in some program because i start getting hate mail as a consequence. so and some of it is absolutely. i can't describe it. i cannot express the words here on tng tinder your ears had never heard before. i mean, i heard it but it my namebut people are very sinceree about any kind of it. doesn't even have to be criticism of lincoln. but anything that would suggest that he was not a perfect human

being, that hisor the country at the time, but were not necessarily right for african-american. because some people as a consequence of his delay. there were people who were returned to their owners who had that kind of thing. why do you think as a nation we are so invested in this? idea of the great emancipator. do we have a couple hours? i know we don't,it's a great. and it makes me think of an item we have from elizabeth, who was a friend of mrs. lincoln's and, then wrote a book about her time at the house called behind the scenes. and we have excerpts from that book. interview that she gave the turn of the 20th century.

and i've thought a lot about this interview. and this is, i think, one of my where. keckley had been enslaved, but she was able to obtain her freedom long before lincoln issued the emancipation procmation. but she that only people who suffered the horror of slavery can truly appreciate the meaning of emancipation. and so the the and i've devoted my career you've devoted your care lincoln and the civil war and all of its meanings. and the more i it, the bigger it gets if that makes any sense. the more it gets. and so when look at the voices we've assembled, we have plenty of of people and booker t is maybe the most obvious where he will. well, lincoln's proclamation freed me and black people.

lincoln a debt of gratitude. and what speeches is he would recite a lot of statistics about the progress that african-americans made since the emancipation proclamation as a way of kind of vindicating lincoln's decision and the fact that washing hand felt like he had d says a lot about the unfinished nature of the emancipation proclamation and the struggles we continue to have today over how, remember, the civil war and what lincoln's legacy really is. and so i think it's for a lot of people, it's well, lincoln freed the slaves, and that's the end and that african-americans should be grateful for that. and if there's any kind of criticism of lin, republican ie 1930s, you are betraying his

legacy. and i hope we show with all of these different speeches and writings that that that this story is is like a monument. lincoln. it's not a bronze or marble monument. it's a monument in words. and it's a very complex, also d it's an honest assessment of man. you know, i'm struck by the that i take white historians can criticize without a lot of problems when an african-american historian gets it. it seems really set the world on fire. i received a letter from a lady many years ago who, said she was british, necessary to write. to me, this is before emails. so you can imagine how long ago that was as she wrote to me, said, you know, how dare criticize mr. lincoln.

he you know, he freed you and i thout, lady, do you know about this? you know, i think, you know, in that even from me, how do you even. and what about the british in terms of bringing african people to this country in the slave trade? but i didn't i my colleagues told me to leahat you don't in that kind of discussion because you never get out of it. but it does become a problem for african-americans who are trying to get to the truth, the truth without trying to to something that, you know, it's not that we want to be negative, but we want to be truthful. and it'ss know that they have a heritage of saving them as well. you have to wait for someone else to ride in on a white horse

and, save you. and that's during the war. lincoln was central to black freedom, no question that. but african-americans were very much involved. the process as well. and that's all. think they're trying to say. they're trying to say it's a partnership. yes, a partnership. absolutely. and you know, you mentioned the dubois from 1922 in the crisis where he gets into all kinds of trouble. bois says, well, i'm just trying get at the truth, which is what any good historian would want to do is to get at the and he says that he says he lincoln. lincoln is complicated and that's why he's a human being like we all are and that's why loves him. and so this business about african-americans criticize lincoln one of my really important mentors at knox college professor, rodney davis. he once said and i was much

younger at the time. and i didn't reallyet it, but i think i get it now. and it was when lauren bennett's book out forced into glory and was very controversial. we have some excerpts from it in there. and in that book, bennett's says that our identity as americans is in one way or another shaped by think lincoln, slavery and the civil war. but that bennett is very critical and professor said to me,someone like david donald had written a book like this, it would become gospel. yes, absolutely. and so i and at the time i don't know i don't know what he's done. but after doing book, i know exactly what he meant by that. which goes to your point, criticism, lincoln. i think that probably there's investment inj■v lincoln as the great emancipator. because it's a part of that whole american exceptionalism.

i it's youre to be perfect they have to be so different from leaders any place else. and that's never been the case this. we've always had very complex leaders. that doesn't mean some of them haven't done good, but their because they' beings. and so i think if we if we approached lincoln from that perspective, we'd a much clearer understanding of how valuable he to the nation and to african american freedomtrying impose an people and discarding anything else that might have been involved iliblack people, and ct booker t washington is doing in some other black leaders of a certain era, they are lincoln's name to get white americans to

along with with the advancement black people. so they may or may not even believe what they're saying, but they understand that if they use lincoln's name, they may be able to get further along. yeah. you know, crafting a usable past. yes. and one of my favorite documents is from a woman, m kravitz simpson, who's active in the the national association of colored women. and she gives this speech in the early 1920s celebrating both lincoln douglass. when the u.s. senate has filibustered an anti-lynching bill but approved the construction of a loyal slave monument in washington so the nrc w was lobbying for the anti-lynchingl against the loyal slave monument. and she gives this very moving speech where she says, i wish to

god that abraham lincoln were because while congress might ignore the constitution and the new amendments, the 13th, and 15th amendments, lincoln would enforce the declaration of independence. and then she talks about speech. and this is something that that really struck me in doing book is certainly there's lots of commentary about the emancipation proclamation, a lot of great stuff, the gettysburg address, the inaugural address. but then talks about, i think, a kind of an underrated speech of lincoln's, which one that he gave in the response to the dred scott decision in june 57. and she quotes from that speech about lideclaration and how the declaration includes all people, regardless of of where they come from or what their skin color ■q happens to be. so yes. you see this desire to have someone like lincoln he do the

right thing in 1913, you the semi centennial of the emancipation proclamation and also of of course the battle of gettysburg and lincoln's gettysburg address. and there's a big reunion that's held here in the summer of 1913, this big blue gray reunion. and there's a really great piece we have from the editor of, the baltimore afro-american, where he comments on this and he quotes at lengthand then he sayt would lincoln think, if he were alive today and would see that his his vision of america democracy of the people by the people for the people is now being interpreted as for only white people. yes. and he would be appalled. and i happen to think right about that. but i think my favorite quote from lincoln, i mean, i love the second inaugural address, but there's a piece in i can't even remember the moment because i

have an old brain and i can always bring to mind what i to say. but there's there's a speech he gives. and i'm sure that some of you remember. no, it everyone should have a fair chance. the race of life. and i think if we keep that in mind, then we certainly can appreciate all tt lincoln stood for exceptional. do we should. we take questions now or do we have time to read a couple of passages from the book. yes, we do have time. a few questions. so if you want to step forward with your time. hi. hi. i'm paul. i'm from denver. maybe because my background is in macroeconomics, but i, i always was wonder why historians

don't make more of thexy point that 180,000 black troops. during 1863 so it's a less two years of the■ war. they bring 180,000 men and i'm there were a few women in there, too, but 100 times that that that 180 regiments that overwhelmed the southerners who are losing. they don't have men to bring in. and that's the men that are winning wars that are feeding the white troops are pushing. i don'se much or historians doing much of the impact of that and the force of that of blacks freeing themselves and they're not even citizens. they're part of the country it's like, you■v know, 200,000 germas came here to fight against germany. i mean, no one makes that emphasis. and i wonder why to take it.

well, lincoln certainly understood the impact that those men were and anhe this wonderful letter to to james conkling which i think one of his grdocuments where, he says and he's thinking ahead to what what what will the country like once the war is over? and he saysns will remember with clenched teeth, steady eye and well poised bayonet, they have helped mankind onto this great so lincoln was very much aware of that. and i certainly at the end of the 20th century and coming into this century, scholars have done a lot of really good work on african soldiers. but but i can remember and maybe i'm dating myself a little bit. i can remember to see the film glory in the theater, and for a lot of people that was eye opening that that therevil war

and that they made a really important contribution and this speaks to a issue about how we've remembered the civil war and also how key have been forgotten kind of left behind. so i think in recent years there has been a lot more there has been that that doesn't mean that there does not need to be more. there's certainly does. but youn't mention the latter part that quote the latter part that you know as black will be able to hold their heads high because they fought for the union there are some white men who bow their heads in shame that, you know, they tried to hinder it. so he understood very clearly and probably that's the reason why. the daysassassination and he's g about the possible ante of voting rights for. black veterans. yeah.

ye being last speech and then before that the letter that he wrote to the reconstruction governor in michael hahn that up a lot in our book that that's key in showing how lincoln is progressinhe's moving towards rights for for african americans and yeah that that conkling letter i think i have she centre of reconstruction that you're going to have free people and they're going to have these people will not forgetve that they strove to hinder it. they're going to continue to try and prevent this from happening again. absolutely that's ue. and the person said something about whether or not women were serving women serving in a variety of capacities, not servt although there were a few of those doing that as well. but helping in ways, you know as

nurses and in many other ways as as scouts and spies even. and they're women who are working in the navy the red rover was one of those ships where black were were nurses him the lincoln in dc as an example how times change and black americans take a much more nuanced view of lincoln. a few months ago we had a program marcia cole, you might know her professor. she's historical re-enactor. she does. charlotte scott, who was the freed slave, who donated the first $5. her liferaising money, among otd slaves to build what's now called the emancipation memorial or the freedman's memorial. washington, d.c., which is a very controversial memorial. and when she when she appeared, she brought along several of her

re-enactors, one of those women got up and said, 80 years old, she remembers in the late 1940 when her baby brother took his first steps that the whole family she went to the memorial to walk to have him w lincoln. and she said this was universal asl among black families at the time and it she said it died out later it died out during the civil rights when people started thinking of self liberation. i just wanted to p■ass that to you. maybe you want to comment. it's interesting too that charlotte scott was not included in the emancipation proclamation. she had already been freed by her owner, who was a unionist. virginia. yeah. who went to ohio. because he couldn't stomachbeine confederacy. so though she had her freedom before the proclamation, she still felt that she needed to do

something to honor him. thanks. that's a great story. i hadn't heard that i know that that lincoln park was the site of a lot of commemorative activities long after frederick douglass dedicated monument. and so we have an item memorial day speech from mercer langston where he refers to lincoln as the angel of emancipation emancipation. hi, i'm bonnie martin and i'm a dozen at the lincoln shrine, redlands, california, and county historical commissioner and thank you for a great discussion. my question is how sincere do you think lincoln in his support of colonization d perhaps was il consideration to make emancipation more to the white population population? well that's a great question and. we still argue about itmy respon

was really serious about colonization, he did a rotten job of it. okay. so but he did send people some people that about 100 people died there. ■qbut he did send a ship to pick up the adams arrived. he did? yeah. yeah. hi, i'm gordon bird from washington d.c. in your book and you mentioned it briefly, you talked about that. we want to our leadersâ be. perfect. and in your book you have a notation from that says i cannot çdswallow whole the view of lincoln as the great emancipate as a law professor, civil rights lawyer and as an african american, i am fully race.

that's a quote that you have from barack obamaaid one of the things that fascinated him about lincoln was his imperfect actions and that lincoln and as a man and what made him so impressive to him. so could you talk a little bit more about the limitations of lincoln and how that made him more of a of a whole person, both to the african-american community and to the white community? well,l] i think that the place people often start is with the the debates, the lincoln-douglas debates and lincoln is being severely criticized by, douglass and democrats, for maintaining this view that the declaration of independence does, in fact, apply all people and they extend

that to include voting rights for black people socially quality. and of course, those views would have been very, very unpopular at that time with white people. clarify his position by, saying, well, i believe in natural rights for everyone, but that doesn't mean i believe in political civil rights or social. but then if you go to lincoln in 63, 64, 65,voting. he's talking about civil rights. there's an order he issues his order of retaliate. and in july 1863, where he says it's the duty of the government to protect of its citizens. regardless of their skin color, which was in direct defiance of the supreme court, had ruled in in scott. so i think and this comes up a lot inone of the one of the this

that's value to a lot about lincoln is what's called capacity for growth that you see me these changes taking place during the civil war. and i think it's in small part because of african-americans who are kind of helping to push him in that direction. ted ted leventhal from philadelphia, all old, the civil war roundtable at a several years ago. i'm trying to see if this quote is accurate that dubois said lincoln was born and i may be murdering this quote a bit a regular person and became abraham lincoln. are you familiar with that quote. it was i i heard it from not this doctor major is here but u're familiar

that quote, because it really struck me very interesting. i'm not i don't know about that exact those exact words. i of about lincoln's kind of course, of course, upbringing and that he's a southerner, you knowith t that he was big enough to be inconsistent, that he still did great things for the nation. jeff in naples, florida and what i find fascinating is that i think it was seventeseceded bef. so it seems to me that thoseaten abolitionist before he even admitted he was annapolis. they seemed to where hihewas b'n wait around to hear what he had to say at the inauguration. and i wonder if if you could speak to that. thankwell, while lincoln was wat

abolitionist the way william lloyd garrison or frederick douglass were abolitionists,■ he it clear that he thought slavery was a moral, evil and for defenders of slavery that, that position was absolutely. and they weren't going to give lincoln a chance as president. they wanted to leave as soon as they could. so as lincolns, his cooper union speech. well, the only thing that would satisfy these people is if we stop saying that slavery is wrong and we're not going to do that. and keep in mind, too, south carolina was spoiling for a fight. ey were talking about seceding the union decades before and they had nothing to do with slavery. so it was notpr left union. and then, you know, if look at the ordinances, ordinances of secession and the supplementals to that they're talking about,

where it because we need to protect slavery. and so anybody who thinks that the civil war was about something else that it was about states rights and all of this all you have to do is look at those ordinances of■#z secession and the debates that occurred and the supplemental paperwork that went along with it. you know, one by one, they're central to our way of life. and they're not going to give it up. are people in this room who won't agree with me. that's okay. i don't believe that lincoln would have come in and automaticallst to slavery. he was more willing to allow slavery to at least into the 20th century. so, you know, he he believed in gradual emancipation. he was he was an anti-slavery man, not an abolitionist. until the war made him an

abolitionist. and i think we need keep that in mind. we have time for one last question. okay. just just being quick. and two years ago, my family celebrated, the 100th anniversary of march from the south, north to freedom and in having a big to do about that. several years ago, as ma fact, . the 1960s, i took my mother on a sentimental drive and, took her back south, and we went to the church where. she was a girl. that church basically collapst r churches that had been built

since she had left. and i notic t■pthe old church aw churches that in those pictures, there were always pictures of lincoln and christ. and i was wondering, sitting back there and listeng to you, whether or not as part of your research, you had come that kind of imagend number of different organizations and including churches. and i would appreciate your comments on that. and let me also that i've already purchased four books here and i think that this i think that i'm looking at a number five. and one of the persons who came on this trip with myself and said that, you know, you're

probably looking at readings for the next year, but that's okay. you know, it's meaningful reading. but if i you get your comments then. cose that. well, first, thank you for for so many copies of the book and we appreciate. but this this does come up and you'll documents in there where people talk about how they proudly display portrait. mm hmm. yeah. absolutely. yeah. well, thank you for letting us eavesdrop on a remarkable and conversation this. thank you very.