around him and was l activity wt world and met billy on and it was like a wide open but ed moses was the connection for me. uh huh. so he was crazy. ed yeah, right. it was crazy. d he did lead me yeah, we're,ne of thank you agar and i just want to applaud at ts month the non frank lloyd wright is turning five and happy birthday.

■ocorrespond and for abc and is the author panic. richard reeves in the middle re is the president of the recently formed institute for the wonderful book boys and men. brett wresor a local paper in york city that will go unnamed, and he is the author of a truly prescient book in retreat. guys, i'm sothere with you. richard you wrote a piece for us at the freeress. might not even remember it because you're producing much these days, but it was called the boys left behind, and i wanted to just read a little bit of it fo you. in the span of just a few decades, write an astonishing revolution. human relations has occurred since the widespreadn. agriculture, patriarchy has been the norm in human patriarchy ben demolished in advancedt on for l

sourearing down barriers to education, the labor market, feminism achgoal of securing for women economic things, bute and power. you go on to say this the movement to liberate women has f half the global population. but like all revolutions, it has real challenges. you upend a 12,000 year old social order without experiencing side effects. so the subject of the panel today really about what those side effects are. yeah, they're good sentences. yeah. you really drew it out of me for that area and i wondered if we could start with you since since of those?our obviously, i would n feminism i would not have the life that i would it. what are the unintendedthat yout piece? well, thank you again, rr that piece. and as i just intimated, that

was probably you get people to boldly for you than perhaps they do for other places as part of your magic? i think . lot on how you define patriarchy, of course. but the the central because it's not as if there are't many areas of american life and around world where there's still a lot more to do behalf women, especially at the top. but you see the central the one that you just quoted me as saying that is the fundamental shift in the economic relationship between men and women. so just a couple of data points. i'm a data guy in 1979, 13% of women earned more than the median m. the middle. now it's more than 40% of women earn man, that's not 50%. but it's a it's a revolution in thmen and women. all great. but if you've defined the role of men historically as being about that economic relative to women, then you don't change that that quickly and expect there not to be some difficultin adjustment. so i think that's driven all kinds of things we see falling

away from education. we see deaths of despair. we've seen rising rates of suicide among men. obviously, there's huge changes in family life. and so in a sense that to bring to a sharper point, we wonderfully expand what it means toa woman. more work to do we have not done the same men and then we've wondered men are struggling with this new new world that has changed in theá space of one generation, maybe two. i think that this topic is one where thp you read like what the official narrative and what peoactual coe wider tn newspaper, you watch television, you're in elite circles, in hear about toxic masculinity. you're going to hear about the patriarchy. cis, heterosexual will, jargon, jargon, jbrett, matt, richard,'l give us. a sense of what things are lw pt

century america. because if you read the official line, you would think we somewhat many people think we still live in a patriarchy but then hear the statistics and you talk to actual parents and they say that is very much not what my experiences of, mchild's life. i just actually have a reporter's question and this ma answered. is there definitely a direct causalitbetween e rise of feminism and the fall of patriarchy and the challenges young men and boys are might ben them as well? has changed as well, which is unrelated to what's to women. soortunity for me to clarify my comments. there is this tendency on the political gh and, maybe brett can speak to this to say, of course men are struggling. it's because the women are doing better, right? the women are taking the jobs. the women are running a families. and so the the conservative

critique of thisth ith yes women have risen that has what has caused men to rise. that is economically and socially just not true. what has happened is that the question what it means to be a man and to mature into masculinity is no longer it's not it's not clear what. the answer to that is and i just good job of even acknowledging the fact there is now question and i think that'sreated very dangerous vacuum in our culture and in our politics becausean ae people, aren't grappling with this difficult are going to exploit it. and i think that's happening in real time. i think there's an economic question. i think also a cultural question, which is, you know, ask myself, you sort of just are a consumer television,del of manhood? right. i mean my father grew up in an era where you could lookd of a model for what a man should be, how he should be with women, how he should be with you k casablaa

and his his role is as kind of being on the surface a cynic and at heart sincere. w, there's anything about male roles, they're cynics through and through. and i worryean, one of the things that i have to struggle with, with i wouldn't say struggle with because i feel like my son is is a very good place is how do you provide models not only in your own le also in terms of the literature that he's reading or the movies to which he's expoorhe songs he's he's hearing that give an idea of what a man ought to be. that is neither above and or below women, has a place has a kind of concept of what it is to you know, maybe almost in a hebrew sense or you just to be a man to be a person, be an upstander, to■$ be to be courageous, to be masculine in a

certain of way. all of that has sort of gone away. and i challenge people maybe there are examples of this, you this beautiful film called the hold overs, if you haven't seen it, the latestne film, which which touches on but i think those examples are few and far between. and iwas we go to these awful) l movies right? which, you know, first of all, if y're a parent and you have to sit through this --, it's just like, oh, my god. right? thing was, was, was, was all of the films just scribe masculinity in the most caricature ish i think, find our way back to atalk about explaina kind of idea of manhood and masculinitat is modern but also retains something lik

something honorable, strong and and and attractive. and that i think is his is absent from our culture. this i mean, someone like matt gutman here. yeah yeah. hard to you know, a lot of my book focused evolutionary and evolution in the roles thatrimid right and i always thought of myself someone who has that kind daring that i wouldnow, taste te mushroom like is you know, and would find out and either be dead or likeight get killed. but there were other roles to be played and so you know when we talk about what looks like d i'm also very touch with my feminine side and the whole book is about how i cry, byhe way.■j so seriously, yeah, there's a brett gave me a quizzical look,

but the question is like,possiby or/.his constantly broad spectrum that's a moving target. no, but as the culture change, it's like humphrey bogart i mean, that's that's one view. and is, you■another. but i mean, i think we've always these but i think we're fungible. do you do you agree, matt, that for safety as a virtue is something that is prized over risk taking? to me, thatally that is that is a shift that has ha■ened that some people would call feminization maybe that's the wrong language for it but i right now at least in many elite spaces in the cultle leave othea minute because that's different but in the worlds that w in that those that safety that

comfort coddling is the norm and that when becomes the norm and when sort of especially physical riskg becomes something that is not not normative, is looked at as crazy, that that has an effect, especially especially on boys that's that's oadly how i see it. i do agree with that. and i think one of the biggest things that i that as a boy, i was allowed and my mothir like i was a÷ mess. i was sloppy. i made mistakes. i fell down. i like and i think that there is a a form of perfection that boys these days have to there was an incident at the school. i probably i shouldn't get into , but let's get into it. a couple of boys in the third grade were apparently annoying, 8>ó+real cute girl named in the fourth grade and my son was sort ery of this and

they got called into the dean. and you tell your kids you're not to annoy a girl. and i wondered what that would have looked like 30 years ago. 40 years ago or whatever. how up and what the dean would have said■ if would have just been, okay, let the boys be boys. i'm not condoning it, by the way. i'm just it's a question that i asked myself. and perhaps, richard, i mean, we've all p■órobahad similar experiences like that raising boys. but i think the point here is that i thiggest problems with this debate, but perhaps were the debates te unws to imagine overlapping ■4 so when we say men are taller than women, we knowan all are taller than all women. we just mean overlap. and so when we talk about the difference between and we're not saying all men have to be like this and all women haveo be like that, what we're saying is at the average there are some differences between us and one of the biggest, t way, is

risk taking. right. the willingness, appetite, whatever you want, call it a risk of risk is higher on the average among■ just not just so i've stumbled companies that are led by men ceo and ceo they're on average more profitable also more likely to go bankrupt ones. that led by women are on average a little bit less profitable, less likely to go bankrupt, which is entirely consistent with the evolutionary psycholo e are a bit more risk taking. right. if the risk pays off the companies got to bveprofitable. but if it doesn't, it's going to go under. so one conclusion that is that's why we need running our companies so that we can take these risks and build rockets and make capitalism great again. another temptation is that's why we need women, our companies, so that we don't have these recessions and runs and it's all testosterone. so let' a female run economy. my conclusion is, how about we re mixed so that we canal etc.

and the idea thatyç we could thk that thought that there's on the average that we can combine is left where the idea that have to have androgynn whic crazy but it's also attacked on the idea thri we kno give men purpose and a role. again we just need to reverse about 50 years or so. and so we have situation now young, many young men who are turning against feminism as an■ idea feel like the is the back on them or even blaming them for their and the right feels to a lot of women like it's going to back the clock and. that is not where most people want to be. most want be is which is we want gender equality. we want modernity, but we don't idea masculinity in order to get there. and, you know, you you sai meane

opposite direction i was essentially for forced by my daughters to, watch the greta gerwig, barbie and, i'm just curious. pull this room. if you like the moe, hand. okay. most of the room. i hate i about to say that. well, i mean, i hated it for. i mean, i sort of admired some of the kind of technical brio, and iwas, was, was was terrific. but why did you hate it, brett? because think it peddled a 5s■hty and not just caricature ish, but profoundly because look, anywhere mean just in my own upbringing oftw know,e academic superstar a while. i think, by the way, there's a tremendous amount of data that bears this out that that it's

under a patriarchy.re suffeng it's it's boys who are struggling. and i think they'retr many ways, they're lacking models. you know, people ask, you know what is modern manhood or what sh of stewart's definition of pornography, you know you know what? when y s you know, one of the things that we have done books. donald trump no, it doesn't. i'll tell you how it looks like. okay. okay. i vividly after 911 when people wanted to say they're all heroes, and i'm like, no, they weren't heroes. the heroes w guys were walking upstairs when everyone else was walking downstairs and those were overwhelmed manly men ex extorting physical courage to save other people. and because in part because the physical burdens of carrying, c, hundreds of flights of stairs or hundreds of flights tathis is j, overwhelming for for most

people. and very and there was almost a devalue what these did when all 911, the heroes were those first responders who were going find o do more in our culture to make sure that that sort of thing is honored and appreciate. and it ise away from the achievements of women or, the courage of women, but it is to say that of courage exhibited overwhelmingly by men andou young men should look those people and say t your you oughto aspire to becae something in s't want to use. but is ito put my foot into it but exhibits what wr bones know what it is, be an honorable man. so the. so an honorable man is someone who himself a cause

that he believes in and would be willing to essentially die for that cause. well, as they like the suicide bomber, ' no okay. but no, i think themmit to a cam here for saving people, i'mlibe. i'm just saying, i don't knowthr young boys to■. be able to do in the second. no committing risking their lives for something belie i reay peel off in the other way and just arrivedack from israel. and i know were there too. i know the palestinians have always lionized the shaheen's people who are willing to sacrifice they. so just just just very very briefly timothy anyway so i just fihat problematic that that's like i don't know if i want to tell you sst these are t to aspire to. but let me just expand on, on the point for, for one, a couple ■of sentences. you know, the historian timothy garton ash once made a very dise secondary virtues and primary

virtues. so loyalty is a secondary virtue, but it's a question what you're being loyal■tq to and absolutely i think a necessary condition of of manhood manliness to use a harvey mansfield term thas eis exhibite secondary virtues. but they are not sufficiunless y virtue, which is the thing to which you are devoti yourself to, is a morally worthy objective. saving people in thes is both exhibiting secondary virtue a primary being a shaheed. what never min the shaheed, but being a a soldier in the vermon the second world war might exhibit all the secondary. but of course you're in the servicetrous evil. it to be both and we have to teachtion then of how those differences might be expressed in like positive or negative ways. right. i think what we're talking about here. but butitive ways, i

think is very important. so i'll give you ad to be what i've become a little bit obsessed recently with smoke does hands up, who knows what smokethe audience. okay, fine. so to me, so they are people who parachute of a perfectly serviceable into a wildfire in order to try a that fire out. and they have to paracte cause it's so distant and. there's however many there are federal government emploent and. there's an issue about their pay right now and, pr does a story on what's to the pay of smokejumpers right? what's really interesting is a long interview with a smoke jumper and what it's like come the risk, woman now tiny fraction of smokejumpers. it that parachuting out of planes into is men are id towards. i don't know ianybody on panel wants to do it. i know i don't.

of npr to say, okay, well, that's a very male profession, so let's make sure ■ doing that job. i understand the thought process, but on the other hand, you came away from that not recognized the fact this is er something that men do. it's incredibly courageous, it's inibly/h valble.■< and it might be okay to put a man on npr talking about it on this occasio right. and you don't want a society where masculine values are seen as somehow superior toeminin ones or only to be found in men. nor do you want it the other wa. and the hollywood thing, i think, is now just overcorrecting a little bitoo. i don't want to live in a world i didn't try and raise my sons to live in a world where basically boys were treated defective,at's where we are edun too often? that's right. it's is like, why can't you be more like your sister? why did you keep moving around? maybe you've got a.d.d., it'aca. all the stuff you talked about, it would be just as much a problem, by the way, the other , too, right we don't want to treat our girls or our

women malfunctioning men. in the eighties were told shoulder pads, assertiveness training, lower your voice than the funny way(■é in words. be like a man if you want to be ceo and want be ceo, but i don't have to elizabeth holmes, you know.ght. and in my business there are i mean, female reporters and the newer generationt feel i think of women feel comfortable being women. but there's an older generation who really do you hear? well, they were told that artificially. yeah i'm also margaret thatcher was to lower her voice. but do you just part of i mean you said that the patriarchy has been in and so we are, you know, historically a blip 20 years is a tiny blipbn a few years or e a decade or twt what are the stakes it, richard, as far as you' concerned of it not correcting itself like, why

is this the topic to which you are devoting entire professional life? i feel these problems, the many men are facing an advanced economy now are real. they're not confected. last in the us we lost more than 40,000 men to suicide. that's the sames the nu6er of women we lost and. they were white men. they were the dusky by race. and si20 been men. all right. and and as all the other evidence we could go into in education mental but like there's ung men now who are just really struggling to figure out their place in the world, their worth in the world and their value in the world. and they don't d in many cases, don't feel seen if we don't step up and say, yes, so much more to do for women and and we see you. we are also helping boys aif d's neglected become grievances and grievances feel kinds of things.

th bad but it is not their fault. it is our for refusing to allow to think two thoughts at once and say is simultaneously true. there's a lot more to dowe've ge attention to it so as we lose them we lose them the based on th anecdote women lose as generation of young men who are losers. i mean in every every conceivable respect you know, young men who think that sex is what they saw, you know, in pornographic movies or, you know, that■being the world endsg for for women. i mean, you hear about thiskz■ n the advanced countries of east asia. this is an even bigger problem with women who want nothing to

do with young, young men because they, too have lost a sense of what it meao be a man in in in a modern society. so the stakes are not in terms losses that i think richard rightly pointed out to o inhabit a society where the exhs to you are attracted and find admirable and but you know one have something to doit wanted ti sorry when i when i'm talking about this mum's mums will sometimes come up tolk about their boys if they're boys are school age and they or struggling with school or whatever. the mumse school age girls generally are like, what's he talking about? and then when they hit their daughters get to about 2527 and because like, wait, who's she going to marry? and actually i interesting

think the barbie movie thing, a lot of young women necessarily hate it,ut it felt a bit dated to them i think the problem with hollywood feminism, if i can is not that it's wrong, it's just that feels a bit dated. like that'no women feel that they're negotiating right now. they're actually of navigating do. these guys and what i do with so the sort of the the feminism of of that just felt like iwatrue t doesn't feel true now i i'm probably going to get pilloried for this but i found the abundance of the minority for it to be you. thank even more. i thought it was less aboutpowe. those who gain ultimate power get keep ultimate power and subjugate the weaker ones. right? power really got a lot out ofe this barbie movie. and i'm watching it with like, no, but you like, okay. so women women win. they they they they pull victory from the jaws of defeat at the end and then they continue to subjugate whatever it is. forget men female.

it could have been androids, right? but the people who lost get subjugate it again. yeah. no it's a terrible message. sorry. the conclusion of the movie. yes. that the real world with all its flaws, is more than the fake world. and that barbie is choosing to live in a real world where women age and die and there is loss and grief. yes, that is okay. butwell. that's beautiful. the subject of class also liberation orhis book about the barbie? here we go. it's last section and it's a great movie. except for that no one's bothering me. so what was int absolutely right about the story arc for barbie, but what about ken? and then the last. oh, ken. ken. and is she say k says you have t who you are without me the last thing there is no end to ken story arc. ango figure who

you are without me. that's exactly the question we're addressing on this panel. but the movie gave no, and that's fine because it was a barbie. it was a feminist movie. the movie, didn't it goes on greta gerwig's job to finish arc maybe it was the but it's someone''s not doing it who else is doing okay i'm taking us out of barbie intd because my my colleagueevery me. girls and youngen k through 12 education in cle and in the labor market. and i'm just going to read a few statistics for every hundred s degrees that are awarded to women, 744 are awarded to the labor force. labor force participation among men in the us dropped the last 50 years. even covid, there re 9 million men between the ages of 25 and 54 who were not employed. there are so many statistics i could pull from from k-through-12

my age who say, great, no, not great, but let's not cry crocodile tears over this. other words, women were behind forever and, basically since the 1970s, we've sped up and now we're a little bit ahead. why we be so concerned about the ahead and that that's really the retort that hear a lot too to the largely richard that you make so ionxeone want to pick that up battle of the sexes know the one of one of the one of the one of the great phrases that screws up everyone's thinking is to say that it's a zero sum competition women or that turning tables i mean, women are suffering if that's the word you want to use of prominence of of men. it and by thwa■y, every mother who has a and, you know, who's worried about know what'watchi'y

himself in his room who are his what his role models. what is he reading? he're all. every mother of a boy is worried about these days. it's rare to find boys, even, you know, in my generation. i've been thinking about this a lot because i sent of tony prep school in new england where money was almostd my son h wanted something different. and so he ended up going to a school inna, arizona, actually. how. gross went there was a dear friend of my my boys this school had very little by way of resources it was hand-to-mouth practically. but what the school taught was resilience. the school taught toughness. and my eighth grade manhattan

kid who like would freak out if there was a fly in the room suddenly like, well, yeah, there was a tarantula in the room, but it was kind of cuten the grand . nothing fazes him like that expe with■ opportunities to demonstrate various kinds of courage and you mentioned safety i mean the concept safety ism has become, i think, pervasive in in our culture. do feel safe boys? do not want to feel safe. boys want to feel and we have get back to a culture which finds ways of doing it without having to sign lawyers. god forbid they're goingo scrape their knees or hurt themselves way. you know, quite fmy son is talkg about joining after college. he very much to be a military officer and it's very much sort of part of his know, like his of himself.

it would help to make to create have whereby military service becomes a more a option and it could be national other forms of serve a more attractive option for for young men because i notice in my own experience when i'm meeting young young men and women, young men coming of the service, they arevely better people than. those who who didn't have that experience. and that goes for me, too. they're better than i. so it's so interesting that when you look at data now on voluntary service, there's one of those interesting smaller data points rather than the big education ones. there are twice as many women in the peace corps as men and twice as many women in americorps as sort of stepping into service is also just massively geerand the issue, i a lot is men is this sense unaintabpassivity which i thinks underpinned by a sense of not being short script, is now not

being sure you're going to be needed. and i think we can all agree that it's a universal human need to fee needed and feel seen. and i think that's a big problem. asked at the beginning of areas like do these gender gaps matter, right. skip other way. does it really matter? well, i think it depends. does itter that that boys are so far behind girls in school and in colleges now, ma'a bigger gender gap today in education than there was in the seventies, just the other way around. so in seventies, boys were and men were way ahead of women and girls in education we thought that was the problem. and we looked at the system and tried to say, hold when you've got that big a gender that does suggest that maybe the system's not actually quite fair to girls anden bigger gap other way round. i thinkeu education system that serves boys and girls animatinga of the women's movement. applies both ways.

i think it's incumbent on the people on the other of the gender gaps of this scale don't matter, because on their face, anybody should look at a gender gap of that and go, okay, that's troubling. we should look at what's causing that and see if we can't fix it. article that came out in new gallup polls are really striking typically generation's generational cohort sort of move together but the gap between young men and young women when it comes to mm hmm. the gallup poll showed that women between the ages of 18 and 30 in this country are 30 percentage points liberal than their male contemporary. and that opened up in the past six years. similar numbers, germany, similar numbers in the uk. in other words, young women becoming just much, much more politically progressive, young men becoming more conservative. what how do you guys explain

well, there's a very good piece by daniel cox■&e on that data. and i've written about it, too. you're right to say young to the left, and now it right as well. some huge gaps in south korea. in fact, south korea is an interesting test case of this sort. i was looking at a couple of years ago, we saw that t between south korean young men and young women is even bigger and presidential election actually swung on the votes of young men with a promise from the pres■idministry gender equa. and so this is issue is playing t politically now in a way is that if men don't feel as prr mainstream lt is paying attention to their issues and is nestly trying to address them, that just means that inevitably and maybe where they go, it's not necessarily a terrible thing. they might start to say,l,■the'm

the conservatives oth reaction e and the entertains and the young audience through know who knows who andrew tate is. i did this other day actually. it was a show. that's amazing show. so just toivt feel badly when when. yeah, well, this is a good thing, but i just anecdotally i spoke at jewish high school in sburgh, my hometown. it was an orthodox school, not the kind of kids you wouldsten'n open misogynist convert to numbd to talk to me about was andrew most influential people online over the last five years. yeah, no question. no question. i just think he's come up a few times. i jt massive generational divide in understanding and what's happening. i think among young men. i'm just not knowing it. and i'ven■ç blessed to have three young men, all my sons in their twenties now. so i've been quite cle ■'■ptole. in fact, when i was finishing

book, my youngest son said, you've got to write about this guy, andrew tate. and i said, who is andrew tate? i looked at him, ignored him, cause my son was. right. but i think a more interesting figure in this regard is somebody like senator josh , who has his own book, is a bit critical of of my wk to be fair. and so he has a book out. his book is calledot that wrongn manhood i can'tvirtues america. there's some good stuff in the book, but the is, number one, a lot of men and mainstream institutions are ignoring those struggles. number three, that's because those institutions hate men, hate masculinity and want to get rid of it as part of the woke world order, which is why you should back marriage and manufacturing. so and so. are true boys and men are struggling. and so senator hawley is able to say and the reason why is because all those people on the left hate men. i don't write for me.

and that's an incredibly message. and too many people are saying actually they skip over one and and we all neglect again say, why are all these men turning the to the alt right? understan. i raised them on ruth bader ginsburg speeches and and it's like you're just you know, you're getting the fact at of these young men don't feel like you're paying attention but and it's also would have, you know, how did i finally turn my son on to reading was andrew biography of churchill then right but then he was then he got to the biography of grant. one of the things th i think it's not coincidental that military history is is atrociously neglected. and by the way i don't think princeton princeton■+ universit. so when someone at princeton was telling me this employs a sing y never encounter professorsil■ul actually spends his time studying war but this is should not be an insight boys are

interested in this stuff mean i remember i was interested in stuff and and you know military battles and how these things unfold in and who are the main actors and waston you know how was patton as a general so on i grooved that as a kid and we do not offer0 most young boys access to a world of two fields of of human that correspond with what interests them. so then we wonder our boys don't read both. they don't want to read what, you know, theirthat's fine. but we should make sure that they're reading something that. they will start and then be up night. you know, i feel like matt wants to say he did not groove on that kind of. no, i did groove. i distinctly sitting on e toilet hours moving on these like that like world atlas is history. i was william

manchester's yeah but and rchill's by far superior i will say but not at far many parents here right. yeah so i was an athlete like i'm obviously a tiny person. right. i'm a small per resilin i was ferocious, i was testosterone ag man. my son is different. he is completely different. all i did play sports. ■re physical i played football. i wrestled, i played destroyed my face college. right. like i was that guy, i went to war at 22 to israel. like this is what i was and son is very different. first, at age ur a interested sports. and that hasn't changed he doe' likes to you know roughhousbi he very different than i am and that is

my gre redemption as a parent. it's very early on, realizing , accepting and it made me forge a muc with my son, realizing that he's not going to groove on the things that i grew de that thrt there have been g he's, just different his parent and he'' il aspects of manhood manliness he wantsdraw and he wants to play with his stuffed animals and create scenes and that's all he he's headed for broadway. so he might be. but the point is, if you get what i'm saying, i feel like we'rebeauty of and i know we're short on time. well, no, i'm about to announce the plug that. we are now able to show our boys, that is that it is not monolithic. and i feel like part of this at is monolithic and distracts from the reality that i see as a parent and i see it and the school that's a nice transition to your book because

you've written a book about how basically had panic attacks for your entire adult life did little about it deniedening howt denial had to do with your own sense of yourculinity. an excellent question a lot and one of and it turned out being the least masculine activity crying crying amean and i cried by using and i kfcouldn't there in my right mid so one of the things that i had to do was get out oft mind. so i did breathwork and i did mushrooms licked desert toadsle psychedeln imagine that tortured the body and let the mind go free in did because i couldn't get there in the right mind. fgibly because i am kind of rigid in that way now i'm better at it, but cryinsomething that y

helped me. but whic activity right. i was going to say. but how much of your inability u felt like you're in cultural cons■truct where crying is for girls or releasing isng? probably not an insignificant proportion of it. i would say, or this is not something that i should be. i'm really worried that things but also mental health are increasingly coded as female or feminine. so we just put out a research research report thatik profession, social work. and i just that one of the reasons we're picking up more anxiety teen girls is screy among girls and women been covered without cost under the affordable act. but the same is not true for boys and men. we do not cover screening for anxiety among boys and men under the affordable act for reasons that are too boring to go into in the last seconds. but watcs not a

feminist plot. it's the result of a public policy. but part of that is because of the sense that this is a thing struggle from and the profession that the men enter the story that women enter and they don't cry, etc. so two quick points. one is back to the gist. the distribution's overlapping. we don't have to in order to honor the exceptions. the rule, like your son or others, ignore that there are on the average rules. weon't have to have androgyny to have equality and we can have exceptions and w honor those exceptions. i agree with you. that's a wonderful but we've also justhat a lot of these men and boys just need more help and in some cases even need more friends. so one thing we haven't really touched onf male loneliness. 15% of men under the age of 30 say they don've a single close friend. wow. all right. that was only 3% in 1990. that is associated with all kinds of other issues. and so the environments and ■ues which men make friends,

especially as families are huge. and the surgeon has quite rightly drawn attention to this loneliness epidemic. what he hasn't done quite yet is to recognize is highly gendered as well. and so we have a lot of quite lonely young men. it is shocking. we've got to have more for them without in any way you look and you just i know we're running out ofs i think you've touched on this very well that, you enmasculinity looks ld trump, which should masculinity. it's a fake idea. and in some ways is a product of react chinnery idea is know, owning your opponent anmi and turning and putting them down and having a kind of man aura and having trophy wives and this kind of thing. and it's one of the many reasons i find the phenomenon sickening, but we don't get masculine culte

should look like. right? if we don't like his answer, we need better on because because we can't end on donald trump. 20 seconds each. who ismale role model? i'm going to take my 20 seconds for something el criminal that screening for is not part %of the health care is not covered especially since it ouy by far to perpetrate mass acts of killing against others. and that is something has to be addressed and i th extruded nearly dangerous sorry it's the result thisric view the zero sum. it's a cliche but it is my father. my father modeled what i referred to in some of my writing as relational masculine rather than lone ranger masculinity. the idea that it's masculine to go your own way and separate yourself up is t opposite masculinity. my dad was all about giving more than he got. generating a surplus and. it was that model, whi is it's

about you give and what you give others through relionsmasculinin isolation. it's formed in community andn r. and he was an absolute modelor ■= me of what relational masculinity like. right. last word. same thought late father modeled was being a man and it would beg w kind of kindness and. straightness character in everything he did. true. as i get and raise m children i think of how i fall short the set such a high standard and the same here. thank you all ■ho■ox ■■n■há1■

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