[inaudible conversations] >> the subcommittee on railroad pipeline and hazardous materials will come to order. i ask unanimous consent that the chairman of the authorized to recess at any time during today's hearing. without objection, so ordered. i ask unanimous consent the

members not on the subcommittee be permitted to sit on the subcommittee for today's hearing and with out objection so ordered. members want to enter document documents the record please e-mail it to document ci at braille.gov.com. before we discuss today's hearing i'd like to take a moment to remember our colleague congressman donald paine c jr. o passed away two weeks ago. it was a privilege to work with donald on thena subcommittee. it was clear to all who knew him the strong commitment public service was for his constituents. i'm grateful for the opportunity to work alongside donald putting together a bipartisan pipeline safety legislation. he will be deeply missed here on the committee and i want to send my condolences and prayers to family friends and staff as they deal with this great loss.

i will now recognize myself for the purpose of holding -- for five minutes. today's hearing will examine the need to reauthorize the pipeline and hazardouss materials safety administration including providing new direction and authority over emerging energy sources. this past fall myself chairman grades ranking member larsson and ranked member pain introduced promoting the pipes act of 2023. last december the committee passed h.r. 6494 out of committee on a bipartisan basis. crafting this built that the committee solicited input from a wide range and in turn received 90 priorities from members in over 100 requests per pipeline safety stakeholders. i'm grateful for the support from members of this committee

in putting together this important piece of bipartisan legislation. in our country up to 3.3 million miles of pipeline safely and efficiently carry natural gas hydrogen hazardous liquid and other energy resources vital for nations energy independence. making it the utmost importance to congress to ensure santa is focused on its core mission of advancing the state transportation of these resources. the pipe after 2023 rear i -- reauthorizes the necessary resources and direction for the agency to facilitate plant safety oversight responsibilities in an efficient and effective manner. the bill contains several provisions to accomplish this including an authorization for additional pipeline safety technical experts to complete outstanding congressional tamandates. in the fast -- past 20 years more than 1400 excavation damage

incidents have occurred. h.r. 6494 and in crews reducing excavation damage incidents promoting public safety. it 2 will support the effort to oversee the state transportatiof of new and emerging fuels by directing finsa to update regulations for the state transportatione carbon dioxide n the study to you the use of hydrogen blending and natural gas. these and other provisions in the act of 2020 through and ensure the safety and reliability of the united states pipeline network in the transportation of our critical energy resources. it is more important than ever are finsa to receiver reauthorization firmn congress. this will provide the agency and regulating communities much-needed certainty in the

federal pipeline safety policy and also provide legislative direction to address these pressing areas of concern in pipeline safety. i want to thank your witnesses for being here today and sharing their perspectives on pipeline safety reauthorization and what it means for finsa the industry and the communities for the transportation of our energy products to take place i'll note my colleagues on the health energy in commerce committee passed pipeline safety reauthorization legislation on their jurisdiction. despite suchhe action in the hoe we have yet to see any movement in the senate from leader schumer and his majority. as the house has shown it's possible to legislate in a bipartisan manner in the name of pipeline safety. i call on the senate to follow suit and i hope to work with them in the near future. i will yield back and recognize

ranking member wilson for five minutes for an opening statement. >> thanknk you chair nehls for holding this hearing today and thank you ranking member larsen for your faith in me. it is with aai heavy heart thati take on the role of ranking member on the subcommittee. congressman was not just a colleague but a cherished friend whose legacy i'm dedicated to honor. his eight exemplary leadership on the railroad subcommittee set the standard of excellence that i'm committed to upholding and building. for many years we were soldiers in the army to uplift men and boys and whether that be très von martin or fighting for health disparities among black boys.d we fought the good fight to

bring back our girls from. i sat next to him in committee for years and we were table mates every year at the congressional black caucus. he shared many memories with me. he wasan so proud to be the fatr of triplets and he let me know that he married a florida girl. i will miss him and i'm committed to honoring his legacy and continuing his work on this committee. as we all know part of this mission was to ensure the safety of all people and he had a goal of never wanting to miss regardless of his health. speaking every day on the floor to honor his constituents, he loved his constituents. he was a man for all seasons and we will miss him dearly. people are coming to congress

and nothing is more important to me than the safety and education of our children. i do not want to see any pipeline incident and i'm particularly concerned when they occur near a school. at least two recent incidents in the last year happened near a school. it was at an elementary school in conway washington and to the mississippi d delta and marigold mississippi. believe it or not just last monthi. and marigold of pipeline explosion at the supercenter pre-k through eighth grade school. although no children were injured to staff members are injured and taken to the hospital for treatment. i want to know how pipeline operators work with communities and schools to prevent such incidents. are they working with the

impacted schools for additional tutoring and what about their mental health clinics how does having to evacuate impact children. with regard r to pipes i suppord the bill because it has essential provisions and i associate myself with his work. among them the bill includes increased funding for the pipeline and hazardous materials safety administration to support the office for its critical -- i'm proud this bipartisan pipeline safety bill focuses on pipeline safety. the bill makes changes to the competitive academic agreement program to provide funding for academic research and development pipeline safety of

the future. the changes will help most historically black colleges and universities and other minority serving institutions participate in the program. these are positive changes and i urge congress to adopt it. lastly i want to say the mayor of west redding was leaving the city through the aftermath of this deadliest pipeline explosion that country experienced in 2023 peer thank you for watching today. i'm so sorry for the seven people who died. 10 people d were injured and i understand in enough volunteer firefighting capacity you also showed up to help with the immediate emergencycy response. we hear you, we see you and we will never forget you.

i look forward to hearing from our witnesses today and i yield back my time. >> the gentlelady yields. i now recognize ranking member of the full committee mr. larsen for five minutes. >> thank you chair nehls for calling this hearing on pipeline safety and for your kind words to our colleague and friend. we continue to mourn a day after his death two weeks ago.as he was a leader on the pipe act of 2023 that are committee voted for.mously he strongly supported us pipeline safety has the funding they need to do their work and laid the groundwork for strong rail funding in r a bipartisan infrastructure law. through don's work with the replacement of century-old rail bridges and tunnels and projects. he was a friend and advocate for real workers and their bid for sick leave higher wages and improved working conditions. his efforts helped support an

agreement that would strengthen the safety and quality of life for essential rail workers. he worked on legislation in the wake of the derailment in east palestine where he made an important part of this legacy that congress must continue to realize. on june 101999 olympic pipeline explosion in bellingham washington claimed the lives of 210-year-old boys in an 18-year-old the young man. explosion released 237,000 gallons of gasoline into creek in bellingham. this explosion set my commitment to the highest level of pipeline safety. transparency of pipeline safety and increase the accountability for pipeline operators. according to the finsa data they have been 12,722 pipeline incidents claiming two lives in

costing three to $4 million in property damage they have always worked on the pipes of 2023 build the pipeline industry continues to experience deadly accidents and causing accidents to the environment through 2020 through is the deadliest for pipeline's in history. a pipeline explosion in west redding killed seven people and injured 11 displays three families from the neighboring building and evacuated many more from the area. in november of 2023 as well for structure release 1.1 million gallons of oil from underwater u pipeline incidents and an unusually sensitive area in the gulf of 20 miles southeast of louisiana. more recently in january 242 homes less than a mile from each other in jackson mississippi exploded three days apart from pipelinene leaks.

the first explosion resulted in one fatality or one injury and resulting fireex from the second explosion spread to nearby homes. the incident happened after identified because the pipelines in the area. putting safety first means greater oversight and accountability for pipeline operators and it means greater transparency for the community trand the public. finsa creates public engagement an idea byby my colleague. improving safety and preventing incidents. finsa in the safety programs need the resources and staff to inspect pipelines conduct investigations when incidents occur and takest appropriate enforcement actions. pipes 2023 increases vance and safety organizations. police are built its $56 million for state pipeline safety programs over four years. iin appreciate talking about the

pipes act of 2023 but i want to welcome finsa administrator krista brown who visit my site in bellingham and build current safety trust whose organization was created because of that. i want to thank finsa and the response to conway washington pipeline leak that happened last year and cleanup continues and nears the end for that. in addition to safety nations they created the first-ever national gas distribution safeti modernization grand park ram. finsa is not fiber and $80 million m for 157 projects $1 billion made available to municipalities and community owned utility to repair or replace natural gas pipelines and improve safety. the pipelines play a critical role in the nation's infrastructure in the daily lives of americans. we are we are here today to make sure the national pipeline safely delivers energy cross the

country. look forward to today's discussion was that i yield back. >> mr. larsen yields. thank you sir. i'd like to welcome our witnesses and thank them for being here today. briefly they dide take a moment to explain our lighting system to the witnesses. there's a mic in front of you and if it's yellow you've run out b of time and read conclude your remarks please. asu asm is consent that full statement be included in the record without objection so ordered. i ask unanimous consent the record of today's hearing remain open until such time as witnesses have provided answers to any questions that may be submitted to them in riding.bj without objection so ordered and i ask unanimous consent to record remain open for 15 days for additional comments and information permitted by members for witnesses to be included in the record of today's hearing. without objection, so ordered. your written testimony has been a part of the record and the subcommittee as you limit your oral arguments to five minutes.

mr. eyes appreciate you handing me the emergency response guidelines to million of these went to first responders. well done but i have an issue. before recognize you for your five-minute testament i'd like to take a moment of personal privilege. without objection, so ordered. the committee notified you on april 15 to 202421 days ago at today's hearing taking place. you also have been asked for feedback on the pipes act far longer than that. we had a bipartisan basis asked for the center for after the sumpter presummit and that's 90 days ago, three months. yet you are unable to provide your written testimony to this committee in a t timely fashion denying all the members of the subcommittee the ability to adequately review your testimony that your agency was unable to share feedback on the billl untl last night after 10:00 p.m.. i find it completely, completely

unacceptable and inexcusable. now due to your delay on both fronts many members may have questions in this hearing as well and i want to make sure it is expected a full answer. we want a full answer from you to all members questions today. i would also like you to commit to responding to all members questions for the record. give me a reasonable expectation here. can you commit to providing an answer, two weeks, three weeks? can you give me a number? >> as you may know both the ta and her inner agency review process which does take time so i will commit to working as fast as i can. >> in the two weeks or three weeks? come on, give me an idea. okay, here we go but i look forward to your responses. we here in the subcommittee are interested in what you have to

share. if you can't comear up with the time i look forward to a productive hearing i hope we can have a productive hearing. with that you are recognized for five minutes. go ahead sir. simina thank you mr. chairman thank you ranking member larsen and members of the subcommittee for the invitation to discuss finsa and her work as well as the reauthorization legislation you have put together. i want to start by echoing the sentiment and condolences to the family and for those of you who were colleagues and friends to the same office and staff members. i know we are saddened as i was to learn of his passing. it's a testament to his legacy that he worked across the aisle to help legislation to bury pipeline taking to keep constituents and all americans safe from hazardous material transportation but as they testified last year before the subcommittee safety is and remains the top priority of the

department of transportation and thele finsa. finsa is responsible for overseeing the transport of hazardous materials o through pipelines and other modes of transportation. as trucks planes and automobiles dronesro among others. designer purses of maintenance is the chairman should nearly 3.3 million miles of pipeline ao well is one in 10 goods that are classified as hazardous material transport commercially in the united states everything from nuclear to lithium-ion batteries spacecraft being transported to space ports around the united states and around the row. nearly two-thirds of the energy we consume in the u.s. is transported by a pipeline and over the past two decades especially the last two years in conjunction with america's red hot economic growth energy production has continued to increase to record levels. currently the u.s. these productsof

has necessarily increased and exports of energy products have also reached record levels. this means heightened demand on her pipelines and products storage infrastructure as well as export facilities liquefied natural gas terminals which need to be regulated. the volume of work before finsa and the challenges of caring after safety and environment omission is the never been greater. infrastructure requires g more maintenance and greater safety scrutiny. a significant portion of the thes-country pipeline of structure was built after world war ii. many pipelines are over 80 years old and there are you installed during the civil war era more than 150 years ago. thanks to the presence by part in -- by parts of the structure law we are modernizing their first of its kind is the ranking member mentioned natural gas grant program that we stood up last year to included grants in

multiple districts and multiple members of the subcommittee. with with the increasing challenges in broader demands on her agency direction and resources resources from congress are important particularly as we close out the final congressional mandates esfrom the finsa ad. finsa is grateful for the work the separatist and advancing bipartisan legislation including increased authorization. in closing i'd like to thank you again for the opportunity to discuss the y critical issues facing our agency as well as our state partners in the largest most sophisticatednd pipeline system and hazardous materials transportation in the world. to the areas i outlined in written testimony are areas which the rest of the world looks to america for leadershipp leadership in the marketplace of products for which we are the the world and in leadership f for establishing safety rules that countries around the world have told me

they often adopted in full to improve their own pipeline safety and environmental protection. leadership in the rule of law when it comes to disputes and compliance. leadership in research, innovation and new technologies to improve safety and environmentalve performance. it sold domestically and export around the world. leadership and transparency and engagement with affected communities which other countries also look to as a new standard. leadership inefficiencies are all thee work we do. this work is the result of a collaboration with the congressional committees authorize and fund our agency as well as the stakeholders representative here. the kudos, most of the kudos for the achievements of urgency go to the 650 full-time federal employees in nearly 200 contractors that make up what i always say is the most unsung agency in government to thank you for your efforts to advance bipartisan reauthorization legislation and i look forward to working with you and her

colleagues as congress considers a pipeline safety reauthorization bill and honors to your colleague. >> thank you. you are recognized for five minutes for your testimony. >> chairman nye no and members of the subcommittee i'm kristina sames. i worked in research and development at the pipeline research council and 12 years in public service working at in the ags office of pipeline safety. i get to officially retire next month after a 34 year career dedicated pipeline safety. i'm proud to have made a difference and i guess i should thank you all of this term and putting me before this hearing. thank you. it represents 200 utilities that deliver natural gasal to

74 million customers could natural gas pipeline delivers essential energy to 177 million americans. 2.5 million miles of pipeline of local distribution centers. it's operated by natural gas utilities. the distribution pipelines are the last critical link in the delivery to bring natural gas to the chips. basically it's the interface it is free. they lived in the communities that they serve dinnerer at daiy with customers and state regulators who oversee pipeline safety and their customers neighbors their family and friends. as such pipeline safety is and must be our number one priority. the primary safety tools that operators used as distribution initiative program. it's a regulatory process that allows an operator to develop the safety plan with the unique

operating characteristics of the individual pipeline system and prioritizes the work to strengthen that particular system. upgrading distribution pipeline systems is an important pipeline safety component. currently 43 states in and the district of columbia have expedited pipeline or grams and in just the last 17 years the programs have allowed operators to reduce the amount of -- by 50%. replacing them with plastic bullets will increase safety and less methane release. the natural gas industry has increased natural gas delivery and improve safety but more needs to be done. we believe the provisions within the committee passed bipartisan promoting safety of 2023 will substantially improve02 pipeline

safety by limiting death, serious injuries, property damage and environmental impacts caused by unintended excavation damage. strengthening criminal penalties for those who sabotage and intensely damaged pipeline operations. studying how natural gas distribution systems worldwide are operated creating a voluntary information safety system to collect and share best practices and lessons learned while sufficient -- with sufficient legal and safe harbors to guarantee participation and establishing it for your reauthorization period so finsa in the industry has a sufficient time to complete work authorized in previous reauthorization's. we strongly support creating a process to identify technology alternatives that if he lets

will meet the intent of pipeline safety regulation and provide equal if not greater levels of safety. the member support fact-based reasonable and practical updates to pipeline safety legislation that build upon the lessons learned and the above and technologies. in that spirit we look forward to ourha continued work with ths committee as well as they house energy in commerce committee in the senate commerce committee to finalize pipeline safety reauthorization. thank you for the opportunity to participate in this here and i look forward to your questions. >> thank you. mr. rorick you are recognized. >> chairman nehls steam members of rickea jackson thank you for the opportunity to testify this point it's like to offer my condolences on the loss of ranking member pain. my name is robin rorick. on the half of api we appreciate

their burst into testify as part of this hearing addressing pipeline safety and rasterization of the department of transportation pipeline and hazardous materials safety administration. every day are nations that work of more than 5000 miles of transmission pipeline transports oil and natural gas for low-carbon energy to fuel american lives. america's let the world and producing carbon dioxide emissions -- reducing carbon l monoxide. the air americans breathe is cleaner because the way energy is produced for finding consume and we need pragmatic bipartisan policies that support the regional development of her nation's oil and natural gas resources including policymaking that encourages investment a critical energy infrastructure like pipelines. pipelines are one ofpi the safet way to transport energy to consumers in every u.s. state in her district committed to zero

incidents based. even though mileage continues to increase the strong safety record has improved. over the last five years total pipeline incidents decreased 23d with 87 fewer incidents in 2023 compared to 20 since impacting people and the environment is 7%. we welcome policymaking to contain to build upon this this progress and further prove pipeline safety. we applaud the conference a bipartisan bill that promoting innovation and pipeline efficiency and safety in 2023. it contains many important policy measuresas that will make her nation's pipeline network safer and more reliable. where please adore criers finsa to execute a review process for and as industry standards in the finsa regulation they are more than 650 references to api standards and federal regulations.

these standards are revised and improved every five years at a minimum to the american international standards institute and regulators struggle to keep pace with the demand and pipe like safety technology and modern practices that are regularly inc. into the standards. today approximately 50% of the instances where finsa site standards are out of date and do not reference the most recent additions. we maximize the danger regulation to keep pace with advances in engineering and technology for the bill directs the secretary of transportation to allow pipeline operators to establish tank inspections advance of pipelinee safety that creates a voluntary information sharing system made as protection for pipeline infrastructure by crown lifee activities that cause the defect or disrupt operation of the pipeline and encourages innovation and investment in the cleaner energy future bytu

requiring finsa to promulgate rule-making as was the safety of the material. the billllco recognizes the important conservation efforts that operators have embraced. apa believes this bill would make her nation's pipeline safer and more reliable and we know you share jurisdictions with other committees and in conversations on reauthorization are ongoing. we are due to continue advocating for the prevision site mission but to consider the language of judges by the committees that would reauthorize the technology pilot program to provide clarity as to what agency regulates implant refiner. as a final matter rnc is actively engaged in a process to help to craft a workable leak detection and repair rule and we believe the initial proposal is beyondnd the scope of congress. we appreciate the letter to chairman sent raising concerns and as we await the final rule i would urge you toit continue to conduct oversight in this

process. this rule-making demonstrates the significance and impact of the reauthorization project and we appreciate the opportunity to participate in the discussion of the bill on the table today let me stress of pipeline safety is not a partisan issue in her industry needs effective legislation to meet the challenge of growing demands will advance existing leading the world. api appreciates the opportunity engage in today's hearing and the committee's important work to advance the bipartisan bill. chairman nehls ranking member larsen this concludes my prepared statement i look forward to the conversation we are about to have. >> thank mr. caram you are recognized. >> members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me to speak today. i also want to take a moment to acknowledge the passing of ranking member pain representative pain was a great leaderle with whom i feel luckyo fortune he will be with us in my heart goes out to his family friends andd colleagues.

my organization was formed at the olympic pipeline tragedy killed the lives of three boys in bellingham washington in 1999 per u.s. justice department was so aghast at the neck at the negligence has a lack of oversight from the government passed the court to set aside money for the the settlement to create a pipeline safety trust is an independent national watchdog. our vision is for another community to endure the senseless grief that bellingham had to experience from a pipeline tragedy sadly there have been many type line tragedies. since a 70 this last safety hearing about 14 months ago 24 people have died in pipeline failures the united states. 2020 through the deadliest year for pipeline safety america. i stated before the subcommittee we were not making progress on pipeline safety and i repeat that statement today. total fatalities total incidents and significant incidents show statistically flat trendline with no real progress. i'd like to share these stories

of recent pipeline failures that highlight some of the roadblocks for safer pipelines. inas bellingham washington we ae planning along with thehe famils of the three boys who died in elliptic pipeline tragedy almost exactly 25 yearsrs ago a commemoration of that day. if you months ago amidst this planning the pipeline filled again this time spilling 25,000 gallons of gasoline and five ap from an elementary school. thankk goodness it wasn't during school hours and did not ignite. the study was likely due to corrosion which affected -- effective -- regulators and industries have focused on reducing failures to integrity management. focused efforts that harm could occur by identifying potential recent areas and mitigate those risks. a porcelain integrity management programs have not lived up to their promise. set rates within high consequence areas are as high or higher than those outside hba.

just last month the same carbon dioxide pipeline that ruptured in mississipians sent 50 people to the hospital 2020 again this time and sulfur leave him up could luckily this happen when residents residents who live less h than 500 feet from e failure were not home for this could have been another tragic story but it took been very owned by exxonmobil more than two hours to ride and close the manual valve. the on the radio tour shortfalls of the pipelines which are included in my previous testimony this incident raises another important pipeline safety party rupture mitigation valves and the ability to properly close those. a formal recommendation after fatal pg&e pipeline tragedy in 2010 and that recommendation remains open today because finsa is unable to require pipelines to upgrade their pipelines. congress needs to require

operators to install these valves in high consequence areas -- high consequencee area. weeks after last years here in pipeline safety before the subcommittee a pipeline explosion inhe a chocolate facty in redding pennsylvania killed seven people hospitalized 11. according to a preliminary report by the ntsb the point of failure was likely the service from dupont l.a. plastics. ntsb published report highlighting problems with plastic service fees in 1988. finsa listed these pulled my component in 2007. at what point do we go beyond voluntary recommendations to make it explicitly illegal for the material to be part of our nation's pipeline? the comment came as congress and recruiters leaving too much upgr to voluntary performance-based efforts. support to enable interesting

leaders to advance however relations and to ensure the entire industry is operating safe pipelines. please remember the 24 people who died in pipeline failures. last time i testified before thi subcommittee fortunate to go think of the empty seats at their dinner table. i can type from working with families in bellingham who lost their son in 1999 the pain never goes away. thank you. >> thank you. thank you all for your testimony you will now turn to the panel for questions. i will recognize myself for five minutes. last december this committee passed the pipe sack on a bipartisan basis. it provides finsa with the four year authorization andhi congressional direction the federal pipeline safety policy. unfortunately while we continue to work to advance his legislation the authorization for finsa expired in september of 2023. you each briefly describe the effect of a lack of

authorization and what then if it does reauthorization provide and i will start with you deputy administered or brown. >> i will be very brief so you get to everybody. there's no direct effect obviously having the requisite resources to oversee the additional product moving in the direction that we get every few years on what is most important in this body and the committee and the larger chamber and body of congress is important to our work. >> ms. sames. >> in my opinion a putting forward reauthorization. they are in a holding pattern waiting to see what occurs with legislation and i believe our little hesitant to move forward until they get the full direction of congress.

there are some great things in reauthorization's that the committee proposed that i truly believe will improve pipeline safety especially with regards to excavation damage prevention and additionalon grant funding that will incentivize to enact leading practices. but the change in direction and the committees continue its great role is moving pipeline safety forward i hope it comes soon. >> similarly we hear from our members regularly that certainty is critical so they can make the investments thatut they need to operate their businesses. having regular reauthorization's making sure sure they fulfill the obligation from past authorizations to provide that sort companies know where to invest and what kind of technology and practices to invest in.

providing that certainty and clarity is critical in ensuring we have the reliability and efficiency we need. >> wild rasterization of the agency is a course importance but more important is the safety advancements that are made and not legislation. more than a promptness of theha reauthorization. >> the houseio to their will wed have a bipartisan bill sitting on chuck schumer's desk and i don't know when he he will do anything if anything at all. i would like to ask. ms. sames we talk a little bit about.

ms. sames we talked about the pipe sack to 2023 new mentioned reducing excavation damage. what is the impact of excavation damage on a gas distribution system? >> it's an escalating costs. if l you look the statistics and unfortunately excavation damage is going in the wrongt directio. if i look at the 20 year trend for serious incident the 20 year trend we where at 24% of all incident for excavation damage. if i jump to the 3% it comes out to 20%. significant and since a 20 year trend is 33.2%. that jumped to three years it's now 42.4%. for the distribution industry

our focus is on how to reproduce these excavation incidents. i believe the senate has done a great job of helping to create common ground alliance and 811 call before you dig and providing grants but it's not enough. we need additional leading practices and honestly we need good enforcement at the state level for those where it's cheaper for them to hit the pipeline instead of calling. >> i agree with you and i think the pipe act addresses some of those issues. i back and i now recognize the ranking member foror questions. >> thank you. do you think the pipeline operators are doing a good job

of supporting the committees where there accidents and incidents -- the community he's where there are accidents and incidents? >> nothing is intentional but i think when we look at the long-term trend as i mentioned in my opening remarks on fatalities in total incidents in significant incidents in the fact that those trend lines are specifically flat i don't think we are making sufficient progress. >> do you know how they engage with members of the public? >> yes, public engagement has been an area where the regulators have fallen a bit short but there has been progress made recently. there has been a new recommended practice on public engagement that was put together by working

group under api and it's recently been adopted and it outlines some best practices for operators to share information and how to gauge with people around the pipeline and everyone affected by the pipeline. i hope operators will come incorporate that and that we will see an improvement in public engagement. right now i think we are seeing a lot of poor public engagement in the country. >> the national transportation safety board identified the tragic egf pipeline explosion in redding pennsylvania, there was -- made from material. finsa identified it in 2007 and having poor performance.

this is a different way of seeing pipeline operation get rid of pipelines. >> yes, yes. it is a voluntary advisory and it was also recently inc. into the proposed rule under the system to look at services and the program management but that's performance-based and leaving it up p to operators so there has been a lot of encouragement to find all of this service fees and remove them but it has not been mandatory. >> do you know what operators would do about using this material and what have they done about it? >> operators have been looking for it. this product was installed in

pipelines many decades ago and recordkeeping may not have been what it is required to be now. there is a challenge in finding every instance of this service system. i believe it's the operator's responsibility to find it and remove it. >> thank you. mr. brown. what is the economic impact to communities where they are pipeline accident particularly unthinking of west redding where the chocolate factory was one of those towns. will have a severe long-term economic impact to the community. what is the economic impact? >> i know everybody here has

seen the tragedy that can occur like the one that you reference and the impact first and foremost to loved ones and family members. i was in jackson mississippi with j the congressman and the community there that was affected by a tragic fatality but there is a lot of concern and people wonder if their systems are safe. businesses can be loose access to energy supplies. the impacts are myriad across the committees work in trying to identify those impacts. i certainly we see a system that people rely on for energy. there are many direct and indirect impacts. >> thank you. i yield back. stay with the gentlelady guilds andad i recognize my colleague

mr. babin. >> thank you mr. chairman and i want to thank the witnesses for being here. finsa is far behind schedule and pipeline rule-making. which as you know is required by congress being, gated by the end of december of 2022. finsa should not continue to regulate boliek the pipeline to same. they do not carry hazardous material as you know and they are disconnected from sources that allow forow transporting hazardous material. the regulation should be appropriate we tendered to reduce the risk of incident. regulating pipeline to same effect of pipelines made finsa is directing precious and limited resources here when the funds could be much better used in implementing other regulations. you joined us administrator

brown for hearing on reauthorization last year and in your responses to questions for the record you indicated that finsa intends to issue a proposed rule in the first quarter of this year. this has come and gone. i ask you why has finsa still not completed as roe? is there an updated timeline for completion that you might be a luescher was thus? >> at the committee's direction the congress's directionss we update on a monthly basis all of our rule-making from the 2020 pipe sack. i believe that is slated for later this year and i'll be perfectly honest with you though you gave us 36 mandates in the last reauthorization bill compared to 19 mandates in the previous reauthorization bill. we have almost double the number of directives from you so we continue to tree the directions with the highest safety impacts to reduce safety risk to the american people first so that

one is on the list of priorities and lower than the high-risk rulings we are working through. >> mr. rorick we elaborate on impact the pipe will have. >> we've been very vocal and you've heard quite a bit from representative about the challenges associated with permitting new pipelines and doing work on existing pipelines. the permitting challenges are not going away. it's being able to right now their two categories as you pointedyo out and abandoned pipette to be pulled out that allows companies to leave the pipe in the ground or from a safety perspective it cleaned and filledin with gas so it's harmless and it's monitored but it doesn't take the same required resources you put out earlier if we will continue to operate this infrastructure in this country about building more

we will need all the piping we have got. >> thank you. one more question for you mr. brown. as the 2020 pipe that congress may -- last time you appeared before us here on the committee mentioned was a high priority proposed rule is still hasn't been released yet.d again timeliness seems to be a problem. why has finsa still not completed this rule and what's the status of this regulation? >> i would echo my earlier answer but i will add in your own state we had one of the largest exporters of lng experiencing the 400-foot fire bomb explosion at that facility and luckily no one was killed. we want to learn what went wrong and included in the update and that's part of the reason why do we continue our investigation of the incident. we want to include lessons

learned from matt. >> okay last question as you no finsa may reimburse states for up to 80% of costs incurred by states in enforcing pipeline safety laws and regulation. given the texas is far and away the leading state in terms of total pipeline miles we are spending more than any other state to meet these safety standards. unfortunately texas is receiving significantly less than authorized 80% reimbursement. i just want to put this on your radar is an issue if you are not aware of it and i'd like to encourage you contain to work with the railroad commission of texas and texas on the slip rickea jackson myself and chairman nehls to ensure that we can get this fixed with a long-term solution that doesn't lead to be in nation's number one producer in an unsustainable situation sifi could get in touch with their team andun send the requested information about the things that i've asked i

would appreciate it. >> yes sir mr. chairman of bike respond to a thank you a to congress or just if you weeks ago the fy24 or appropriations bill included a big boost for the state program grant so we anticipate getting a boost along with the rest of your stay. >> thank you and i yield back. >> the gentleman yields and i recognize a valued member of the subcommittee. >> thank you very much mr. chairman. back in may of 2018 in merrimack valley homes started exploding across areas but a gas pipeline was over pressurized, dramatically over pressurized and it started coming out of people's houses. an 18-year-old was killed. i worked with myle colleagues to

update pipeline regulations. my colleague from texas made the same point why did it take so long just to get these rules finalized? any day another accident could happen you just talked about 400-foot fireball. why the delay? stated we follow administrative procedure and we also follow the statutes that include additional advisory committee review which includes five industry representatives and five state representatives. that takes many months to work through the highly technical issues involved in the regulations. the other thing is that we regulate thousands of operators each with unique system so creating a one-size-fits-all rule is very difficult but it usually means we end up in court with justt one entity and if thy don't like how we are addressing

operators to upgrade, those are just o few of the state challens we have. obvious one our resources. we started off with two regulatory rules like the one you directed us to do congressmen. we doubled that as soon as the administration took office and we have set record number of rules in the first year that we got here. they are still a backlog and we appreciate this committee support for additional resources on the rulemaking team members. >> the last reauthorization provision requiring the secretary of transportation to submit a congress about the need for an independent pipeline facility and the d.o.t.. my understanding is it's the only major mode of transportation thatar does not have n dedicated research testig

evaluation facilities. has finsa finalize the report in do you know what when it will be delivered to congress? we are part way through and that reporters not been finalized. we do fund non-profits that do that research testing testing th the funds you authorized as well. say can you give us any idea what the timeline is? >> i was just a matter of months. we have had discussions with both sides of valid multiple d committees and there's varying interest in the subject of creating a facility but we look forward to giving you that report. >> can you give us some indication that the findings and recommendations will be? >> i have not seen the draft yet. we'll be glad to provide an update as soon as we get it. >> shipping comments permitted integrity management program are

the primary tools of pipeline operators use to ensure the safety of the pipeline. is this a good system? >> we have thousands of operators and is certainly working well with some and certainly not with others. coupled with our push, this committees push the stakeholders push for pipeline safety management system we are constantly looking and challenging our own presumptions and where risks risk may be. there's a lot of promise and we heard some welcome constructive criticism where it might -- might not be working and that's fundamental to management system. we are always looking for what are we missing here. because systems are so different it's hard to ride back a single prescriptive rule for all systems across the country. >> to you feel it's the right approach or she would be --

should we be taking a different approach? >> one approach we have we are investing research and we issue safety advisories. we issued directives and emergency orders when needed so it's what the rest of the world does use a similar non-prescriptive regulatory scheme. we want to use any tool in our tool belt to address safety risks. the gentleman yields and i recognize mr. rouzer. and thank you mr. chairman. with regardeg to the repair rule will and willru the agency released the final roles? >> our monthly update by the end of the year. >> will the white house be involved in viewing this rule-making? >> the interagency process every agency will have an opportunity

to provide feedback and in the proposal stage there's minimalro involvement. really the input comes at the advisory committee stage where we get input from stakeholders here to try to build successes around that rule which we have been largely be to do. says the agency working with the epa to harmonizeze this rule and is the epa making recommendations and will there be overlapping? >> the proposed rule states count sometimes thero roles dont imp -- we are harmonizing those to minimize overlap between our agencies.et >> is at the position of the agency that all leaks are hazardous? >> i was just in jackson mississippi were a nonhazardous leak wase discovered.

in your testimony highlight concerns the api and industries have with the finsa leak detection repair a rule-making specifically your testimony explains that finsa exceeded the scope of the language of section 113 of the 2020 pipes act. can you elaborate on that? >> we believe that finsa proposal went beyond what congress mandated and specifically going into rural facilities. those two particular areas and consequentlylypa by doing a vier pollingg and areas that would then dilute -- there was a concern about finsa diluting their resources and there's the potential of missing more

densely populated areas. >> my ai address that question? thank you very much but i want to add is the advisory committee meeting last month there was a unanimous vote on the inclusion of those rural gathering like that included the industry vote and with a lot of new want around how that would impact those lines. >> i know that vince is required to conduct the cost benefit analysis for giroux waking spread in a comment on how you think that would play out? >> if you look at, i think we would probably disagree with the deputy of ministers are bit on the overlap of the epa with the fleury proposed rule would look at concentration threshold. they are his conflict with the epa rule if you add in the load

threshold it would effectively remove a lot of what current operators use to maintain to look for these weeks of it effectively have to walk the line withto handheld meters and then if you pull in the gathering line that's an extra cost conversion there. i don'tt know if the cost beneft analysis looked at the empire metal -- environmental impact. >> with that i will yield back. thank you mr. chairman. >> the general niels and i now recognized chairman garcia. >> thank you mr. chairman and ranking member for holding this very important and timely hearing. i too want to take a moment to recognize the passing of former greinke member of the subcommittee congressman pain. i hold the utmost respect for him and his leadership displayed

time and time again over the years but he will be missed. moving to the topic of today's hearing we have heard from my colleague about the importance of pipeline safety. safety should be the number one priority when transporting materials like co2 that can be deadly and that's exactly what we should be concerned about as we look to the future especially as industry looks to dramatically expand our network carbon dioxide pipeline. mr. rorick -- mr. nehls your testimony states industry has been operating seau to pipeline safely for more than four decades with no fatalities. a co2 pipeline ruptured in mississippi and caused 45 people to be hospitalized from co2

poisoning where people laid on the ground shaking and unable to breathe. it was lucky that this tragedy didn't and worse. mr.nd rorick yes or no does that sound safety you? >> there certainly risks associated with that and it was a tragic incident. those are incidents we want to avoid. >> let me give you another example. just a month ago when we sienna an estimated 107,000 gallons of fuel leaked from a pipeline owned by exxonmobil. local police and firefighters could do nothing set up roadblocks and wait for the pipelinespi owners to repair it and it took more than two hours to repair and many residents were never notified of the leak. yes or no does that sound save?

>> dance and occur but that doesn't mean the pipeline was not safe. >> n,my final question mr. rorik how much does the co2 pipeline stand to profit from these pipelines? >> i'm not in a position to answer that. you have to ask the individual operator. >> since you are not sure i will tell you in the midwest the largest proposed network of co2 pipes inar the nation could be eligible for up to $18 billion in tax benefits for their project. that's just one company. it's apparent that they are dangerous gaps in federal regulations that f f keep people safe and huge economic motivations for the companies that want to see these pipelines built. make notification system detection methods for an

emergency response plan are nowhere near belt out. we should be putting a moratorium on all feel to pipeline until we can ensure that people especially ones in vulnerablean communities where these are built will be protected. thank you and i yield back mr. chairman. >> the gentleman yields andnd i recognize mr. de saulnier. >> and population changes occur nearby it sends since an unhelpful message. we talked about the gas pipeline advisory committee that convened a meeting on overruling and are meeting again and since we have

have. >> we were able to hold thatat meeting congressman the few weeks ago and we completed the work on that rule. see the thank you. mr. brown how many barrels of oil, how many barrels of oil do we produce annually? >> i'm not familiar with the state level. >> zero. i just wanted to share with you something that concerns me. how manyinon total miles of pipe in the united states totally? >> roughly a little over 3 million. >> how many miles of those pipelines involve oil and gas? >> roughly 3 million. >> total? >> total. if youio buy a demonstration ges

their way in removing oil and gas industry would that be down to zero pipelinesry then? >> i'm not sure i follow. can you repeat the question to ask them the bike demonstration gets their way in removing oil and gas industry from the united states would he be down to zero pipelines? >> i'm not familiar with any proposal to do such a thing in effect a number of pipelines is increased at roughly 17% in the transmission space over just ths last few years. 13% overall in just the last few years so and then with record investments in emerging technologies hydrogen co2 there is potentially a continued expansion there. >> i see you have a very impressive backgrounds who would you sayss the technology in the pipeline safety in the enhancement have done very well

in the last 10 years? >> apsley. technologies are incredible. >> ms. james congratulations on your retirement. this may be one of your last meetings again thank you for your service and your knowledge. would you agree because really the safety from the pipelines is a bipartisan issue and we want that. would you agree that technology involving the safety within the pipeline has been enhanced in the last few years? in the greatly enhanced over the decades i have been in service. >> mr. rorick? >> yes, sir. >> yes there has been a lot of great technological advancements. >> one of the concerns i have is we always talk about safety on both sides of the aisle and we have what i would say are

people. belle turners tried to damage pipelines and what have you. specifically the panel agrees that those tears the damaged pipelines and cause union members to be in danger in the public to be in danger d will agree that they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law because the danger they are putting us all in? mr. brown. >> terrorists who threaten or damaged pipelines should be prosecuted. >> to the full extent of hola? the folks that of law. >> absolutely agree. >> we absolutely agree. >> we don't support the creation of an unsafe condition on the pipeline. >> thank you very much and i just want to thank you all for coming and sharing your testimony. being on the full committee of tni a lot of these issues are bipartisan and i i think that we

need to recognize the safety issue that affects us all and i'm thankful that the chair and brought us together to talk about the safety issue which should be the number one issue that we are discussing today. mr. chairman thank you for your leadership and i yield back. >> thank you sir in just for a note it does strengthen penalties for those who want to create that terrorist act in that pipeline. the gentlemanma yields and i now recognize mr. hoffman for five minutes. >> thank youou mr. chairman andi want to thank the witnesses. thank yount a particular for speaking inherent truth about this spiderweb of combustible infrastructure that we rely on mr. caram. there is too much fossil fuel business as usual in this

country and certainly in thisnu conversation about continuing to build out the system that is frankly a disaster waiting to happen every day. it does happen just about every day. i heard about a fireball at an lng facility that i had never heard about before and it pretty pretty much didn't even make the newsst because it's just the cot of fossil fuel business as usual that we have come to accept. i feel by passing a bill that doesn't do nearly enough to acknowledge this much less do anything about it. we are sleepwalking are there into the climate crisis and further and further tragedies and disasters. you don't have to look far to find examples of this. of the last 12 years ther keystone pipeline has had 22 oil spill's including two large spills between 2017 and 2019 and again in 2022. spilled an estimated 14,000 girls in nebraska and because of

these issues the gao issued a report in july of 2021 regarding keystone pipeline safety record which included a shocking revelationck the keystone with s record was not an outlier. it's about the same safety level on average is pipelines all over the country. this taken with mr. caram's testimony showing 2020 23 was the deadliest year for pipeline safety in america in 20 years should be a red flag and it's a sign of how concerned we should obe by the state of our pipelie infrastructure and especially by this increased buildout that we are sleepwalking toward inut ths committee and this congress. sadly another example of the significant threat pipelines pose can be seen with the feeling that the danbury gold coast pipeline in 2020 that exposed the community to dangerous levels of co2. when it ruptured it took 15 minutes for residents to feel

the effects in 50 of them went to the hospital with a significant number still suffering effects today. these accidents and failures are not outliers. we are continuing to see the same problems with the same entities everywhere we look. last month there was another co2 pipeline link by pipeline owned byn dan. this time in sulfur, louisiana. mr. brown after the disaster finsa found that danbury made lot of mistakes but they certainly underestimate the size of the affected area and adequate monitoring took too long to notify officials. one would hope that danbury would have been monitored in scrutinized by finsa to make sure these findings were corrected sadly it appears that many of the same failures occurred with the sulfur louisiana league could apparently danbury was unaware the failure. took hours to arrive on the scene and if this would have

occurred when residents were in the area during the day they could have been catastrophic. are there any failures or lessons learned that finsa identified with danbury and now owned by exxonmobil of force, to correct it and after regained the aftermath of the second incident in sulfur louisiana which of these seem to have gone ignored or unaddressed? >> i can know there are numerous directors who we provided to danbury after the first incident and we are still in the investigative instances of the second one. we applied lessonsns learned and last time i was here a proposed rule we hope to have out in the next few weeks to create the strongest standards. >> i think we all look forward to seeing that rule. we have only about five miles of co2 pipelines right now most have been rural areas tinkly. when s something happens we have

not yet seen major populations centers affected however there is tremendous pressure to build up this network. is think it's inevitable incidet like subpar show in sulfur louisiana are coming to more populated areas in the near future and this committee and fortunately is sleepwalking into that fate. with all of this pipeline not only worsening the climate crisis for taking a these tragedies we haven't evenhe tald about hydrogen in a natural gas pipeline. i don't have time to go into it but there is far moreesav to the needs to be talked about are needs to be addressed and we need to be worried about it if we areo going to be serious abot pipeline safety. with that i yield back. >> the gentleman recognizes mr. johnson. >> thank you mr. chairman mr. brown the pipes act of 2020

implemented a new technology pilot program that allowed people to try it technological innovations to obviously increase safety but i can imagine all kindsdaf of situatis where in line inspections workweek innovation we would want those brought to market or to the field rather and a pilot program. when you were here last iser tht we had a good productive conversation i want to pick up where we left off there. it's my understanding we still don't have anybody utilizing that pilot program so have you all have any applications? >> thank you for your constructive question last time and dropper to work together.e we have construction discussions after that with stakeholders and the goal is to get new technologies deployed to produce environmental benefits. we have laws that apply to us unless you tell us they don't apply to consider environmental benefits. as faro as i have heard there's

no interest in avoiding consideration of it. everybody wants that because new technologies tend to produce. it's really making sure the laws aligned and how to do it efficiently. >> do we have any applicants to use a pilot program? the program doesn't change. we sought feedback from the public and we didn't get feedback from the public but we got feedback from thishi commite and from stakeholders. we don't find it sufficient because we have to consider the environmental policy act analysis and utilization of that program. really we are just is there another way to consider this and priorr mental impacts impact so we can work with the gas technology we are glad to work with you. >> you are saying that pilot program is currently outlined in the law does not provide any meaningful benefits to operators? >> nobody is used it yet,

correct. >> we know there are these innovations, presumably we would want to test them in a pilot program so we could get good data about their efficacy. how do we get that done if not through this pilot program? >> i think i would leave it up to my colleagues here to answer but our goal is the same goal that you have. we don't want to just use the american people as guinea pigs. we want to make sure there's an equivalent level of safety and they are not new environmental cost to the public. i think everybody's on the same page on what we are turned to get to. >> again that's why it's great we have this panel of experts and i will go to you to get a sense from you. do innovations exist in what's the best way to employ them as deputy manager brown said. mr. brown how do we get that done? that's the question that i'm

asking. >> how you currently do it is to demonstrate safety and a special permit would allow existing standards and regulations. there is a current way to do it in congress devised a third way which is a pilot program but you still have to analyze the threat to the them prior mental impact and the question was do you have to analyze those environmental impacts andme i think you heard you don't have to examine that. most of your members said we want positive and prior mentalal impacts. >> you have to get clearance to put the practice in place. how common are those? see me get varies widely. .. >> for specific technologies,

they are not frequent. >> i think right now the way the program is designed as too way the program is designed it to her for them to participate so were going to do with the renewal technology into the testing phase situated by representative, think congress will have to provide a pathway for special process so we don't market down the basement these other procedural processes that they currently have with the program. >> will i was just say this and thinks her deputy administrator, congress is been saying for for your sins they want if theyw technologies brought to bear so that we can get a saber the better g system. the fact that for four for them not to figure out a way to work with partners to get the bench obviously means were able to do and i guess i would ask for

urgency within the agency that help us to get that done with that i will yield back. >> and recognized five minutes. >> will i think you mr. chairman and thank you to all of well this for being here today before i begin i just want to add my voice to those who when was a congressman, he was a tremendous meleader on the subcommittee and also for all things new jersey and my prayers are with him and his family. my first question, the technology, he continually adapted and proving however sometimes it takes a while for the federal agencies to allow do operations or technologies, be used and what challenges have you seen getting new technology. >> will i think that we've discussed some of them program.

it's unbelievable burdensome for the new operators to apply for these technologies the other interesting when a technologies come to the market improving, but is not allowed with the current relations of the meekest point about give an example. right now, they say the regulations require an operator to put up basically a device front of a mere to protect the meter that was appropriate back in the 70s and the regulations were created. however, that item is in places because of the meter t is it it does not really scatter any do not want gas to release we don't have breakaway technologies that thatte meter if it is hit immediately shuts off the flow of gas. but an operator can't use it because the current regulation

requires an obstacle be put in place to protect meter. i would love to see lookout current technology really be used to be think intended for the regulation in a different way of technology their already proven. >> thank you deputy administrator brown, 2020, the two issue safety related fibroids consider entitled pipeline status december of 2022 pretty in the piped up between 23 follow some of the mandate requires competition completion within 180 days what is the status of the relation wednesday into space completing this ruling. >> provide monthly updates on the status doubly that one is slated for the end of the year

as i stated earlier we have rules and we have people working on them. we have twice the number of directors in the act of 2020 that in 2016 for the additional resources the bipartisan legislation cometh that you aree considering, we very helpful helping us meet to that rule completed. >> do you believe then that an update title pipeline rule increase the pipeline safety. >> thing we had some good commentary that address that. i'm not look that will carry me over the coming of the role that we have not taken yet, with would have to lay out that justification. >> mr. warrick some of the pipes active 2023 includes authorization volunteer information in the system mere from your perspective how much participation with vis system c and pipeline operators.

>> well designed appropriately congressman, that means proper information protections providing a system or companiesr consummate information there's a reach back authority for punitive and these companies would be with activating participate in it and i think that this committee was wise to design a program is modeled after other successful programs that exist for pilots the faa twinkle you would get good participation. >> what comes dear vision system is established an operational. >> we will love to work out looking a prevention data investing in technology the supervising data of incidents near misses so we can is an industry working with regulator monitor trends and also look at individual reporting get up to

see lawrence we can see it from them as well. >> thank you so been up to german guilds and i now recognize mr. menendez for five minutes. >> thank you chairman i want to join my calling it recognizing theha lives of a calling he wasn incredible warrior deceived north of the county of essex new jersey and for so many cross-country is not just a calling different him he was dark and big brother homeland security this institution i will miss him dearly trust their colleagues represented wilson will do in a job picking up the torch and carrying forward as we all strive to do the work printed on for so long i just appreciate that opportunity. >> today marks three years of the rents were attacking the colonial pipeline this attack led to a temporary disruption of delivery of petroleum products

acrossel a large slop the county cyber attack continue to become more sophisticated need for strong coordinated effort to reinforce our government he assess cyber security with top priority particular interest in this topic as we also have sub committee on the home land security committee. thank you discuss how cyber attacks impact our pipeline network for safety of our pipelines and security of ours country overall. >> yes thanks for the question was that cybersecurity a thing more risk to reliability and safety but there are safety issues and have a system of taken over by someone outside of the operator which can close thousand pressure waves associate could create unsafe conditions. >> going to elaborate on the reliability component that you mention. >> is outside the scope of the safety trust and i think the

operators can probably speak to reliability better than i could. >> fair enough anything of that helping publisher security for nations network specific cybersecurity. >> sure, a lot of best practices out there and then the agency is doing that kind working again beyond the scope of that safety trust to work a lot on cybersecurity but as i mentioned poses safety risk that we are concerned but i believe there's agencies other i wanting best practices that we hope the regulated in that way thank you lets him testify because many mr. romney discussed coordination with other agencies such as tsa this trust cyber threats and seeking to hire cyber experts despite cybersecurity and how that process is been going in g terms of onboarding hiring

cybersecurity expert. >> we do training tsa we actually engage seniors level level that it with tears and tsa leadership as well as pipeline and pipeline secretary leadership, we do have specific authorization so maybe something worth considering me to hire in that space but that is something that we would like to continue to make sure that we are on top of you know we don't have direct jurisdiction of cybersecurity. it obviously is really that the cyber can affect the operations or has potential to itself as you mentioned the colonial incident, that was what we were most worried about the funny start up thep restart of the pipeline as well as in the current pipeline is already operating the voluntary shutdown we provide the training to the

tsa input on the directives we just want to continue to work as closely as possible with you that's something of interest to the committee as you consider reauthorization. >> rated think you and are you pursuing any additional pipe line networking to prepare for future tax treatment engage in a voluntary basis with regulators and entities discuss regular control management highly it focused operations with robust engagementag post colonial pipeline. >> appreciate that and thank you and i yelled back. >> i know recognized mr. burchett for five minutes be thank you and i do miss her print especially always enjoyed being dumping my one minute news always there dressed very dapper mentally multiple times that is wardrobe them he will be missed.

mr. brown, would you agree the pipelines for the sake safest mode of transportation for natural gas and towing product. >> when you factor in the volume of product moved i would say so and obviously the discussion day-to-day involved a lot of tragic incidents some of those individuals certainlyes is not when you just talk about the context of volume overall yes. >> yes ms. number this moved would you agree that these pipelines were providing a lot of jobs and opportunity for some very hard-working americans have a lot of jobs associated with the pipeline sector. >> and it is hard-working is not an easy thing. >> yes. >> would you grew that. >> could you repeat that. >> 's mission of the door me they did that lunchtimes on me. your degree that is very hard work. >> is very hard work yes and

another and we have the best workers in the world summa guess weth do everything that accordig to liquid energy pipeline association the pipelines of most environmentally protected way to deliver energy to do this year that biden is reason called export permits for liquefied natural gas because of climate change in did you or anyone at the department transportation tell president biden this is an unwise decision. >> i did not have any involvement in the pause that the department of energy recently announced. >> would you say it's not your responsibility. >> we do not have any jurisdiction in thehe space. >> okay i'm used to sing to god in this way usually direct most of my anger at. and according to the dot website, user and president biden's carbon dioxide captured that task force and moving forward, move federal government

makes decisions on liquefied natural gas i hope that we put american people first of these ridiculous initiatives for climateat and i yelled back.ld in two minutes and 34 seconds please use it wisely the gentleman yields in a recognize you for five minutes. >> thank you and thank you for this hearing. and i start with mr. brown and transition to anyone else who would like to address the sort of segue for my colleague. in the context of the time changing, i represented an areai in san francisco bay area this is in terms of hazardous materials because of chemical plants in the proximity of the few ports of the west coast and so it is changing a lot of it is because the policy california that i firmly support relating for many years but we don't focus is much likable you don't

think on your issues and transportation run refineries in the chemical plants. and we question mr. brown is of those used to be six refineries .are not five and two of them have been shut down for extended period of time and transition date and the bio fuels is the california renewable portfolio standard continues to be implemented the market changes for the product. so we work with private sector and anticipate your point about, resources and transparency and how do we make these members under numbers as transparent as possible the oversight this pensions as transparent as possible to we actually are more efficient and as we look at the marketplace change. none comment will our energy resources in california are changing dramatically and were proud about. it is more efficient if you ask

me even separate fromen the isss of the damage to the planet. so is your agency have a diverse panel to talk about that at about being fairly agnostic pretty as to my colleague was just talking about. but also being driven by evidence-based research and how we transition and allow the local community transition as they see fit and consistent with state statute and again, if you look at a map of the area i represent, just redlines of hazardous materials pipelines oliver and compared to the rail and truck entrance work of these facilities a lot of them think that there would be producing hydrogen for many decades to come as of the one you still need that infrastructure for the transition us close seemsit to e with you to write, really transparent nobody could follow it but if you don't, continue to be a risk to the public at to

the national economy and again lastly the specific part of the dynamic, our competitors two in china, as they change more dramatically as we do may have certain advantages in their access to raw materials now we look at the comparisons in a global changing internship transport we get fuel this refined in the bay area so from the north slope which is a very heavy crude and requires transport and specific to the product about going into the plant and coming out of it. >> one could not agree more the transparency is critical at this stage were in an age of data religious how much data that did not exist years ago and so voluntarily sharing that information and that's something that her agency tries to do a report on a website oliver incident data. and the enforcement data which is unique for government agencies but also when recently

map incidents across the country are continuing to do that to provide directed data types of incidences occurring so that academics the public and engage the pipeline safety trust the big focus is part of a authorization reauthorization volunteer information sharing system. we voluntarily try to to create when an incident occurs sharing that information so that other operators can learn from that and i know that the organization provides a audit of companies voluntarily basically opening the books and sharing information and acknowledging where risks exist and it helps us alternative tackle those risks collectively. >> is your could you respond to

working with the petroleum association they described it once is a love-hate relationship in a may have changed the latter and it's the. >> it is we very much your cells about part of the solution for technology technological advances for current activities were doingl an oil and natural gas but also that transition will be part of that as well and could not agree the deputy administrator, that regular engagement transparency where wl can, we don't always agree all of the time certainly collaboration coordination wherever it is absolutely and i think you appropriately identified the interaction independency if you will you have the north slope group happy religious pipelines we have to make sure that we recognize that the infrastructure is enter 20 commentators a nation across federal agencies and even the state is critical as well. >> and transparency. >> yes. >> thank you. >> in the gentleman yields and i now recognize the next person

for five is the mckay mr. chairman, that is around reference the need to share data relationship to safety concerns in one provision that we were able to include in reauthorization from this body very grateful and bipartisan way again this committee produced an outcome house of course produce an outcome was awaiting a set to take action which are many us is not only concerning it is just consistent waste of time and resources when the major vessels these happen but one provision we did include help drafting the reauthorization bill of the pasties in with my colleague mry information sharing system would allow and encourage the sharing frontline safety data and information in the industry. mr. brown preference the value of this kind of assuring data. i'm not going to start with this question it seems to me any of the other witnesses.

amy: the value of that i think would highlight the need to move the bill forward. >> so, volunteer information system is what we discussed a little bit earlier we could be an incredibly valuable designed appropriately and what, i mean, by that is so long as submitted to the federal agencies are protected to come on then information is used in such a manner where it would allow companies level of comfort that information respect to the authority and repeated fashion then you would get great participation give is equated us out and look at the trends but also identified individual reporting so we can share the lessons learned more broadly across the industry. >> i fully agree we see something similar within the american gas association database is over 150,000 failures is evaluated by government and industry manufacturers we have created a

status report about three times a year showing what we know about failures. and it works. so if this is correctly commando gives you the wealth of information that the industry and government can utilize for safety and on the other hand if it's done incorrectly. and for the utilities and submission nobody will submit. >> agreed and another provision in a drafted we were able to secure on the reauthorization with mcculloch direct steps to complete a study and rulemaking on how operators can use composite pipe safely to translate fuels like hydrogen that will help us meet some of the chronicles mr. your code you just speak to potential uses were composite pipe add whites important to to get this rule making a copy. >> yes and so we discussed the represent that we are part of the solution going forward and

we certainly is having a brother about the pipes avenues for decades now for repair jobs etc. and so that piece of technology in particular stands to be pretty good benefit talk about moving greater parts of the just thinking about just to shift gears slightly as for my entire life the hudson river valley which we just by votes with the natural conservation is but it always search me as comical as for those who post construction pipelines for the safe transportation special guest another fuels given the greenhouse gas emissions are avoided altogether, transporting via pipeline rather than more traditional transportation and could you speak a little bit about. in my friends back in new york, by the regulatory restrictions in new york for pipeline distribution via pipeline is probably not the best policy.

>> i'm sorry could you repeat the question. >> rather than so rulemaking is space like new york limit and of course those who oppose the use of pipeline transportation, by co2 and natural gas as instead relying on the alternative transport options which usually lead to higher gas emissions. >> gotcha okay yes well i think you know there are certainly lower incident rates of pipeline is deputy administrator brown referenced earlier and i think that when they thank you so missing now that is just how devastating a failure can be from a pipeline just because of the quantity that's released there's a failure of pipeline so need to be taken into account my organization works very hard on ensuring the safety of the pipelines in the ground.

making sure the pipeline is backyard is the safest possible that the community around it can feel that not live in fear of failure. >> thank you and i go back. >> the gentleman yields and and now recognize mr. graves is also this committee leaves waived on to the subcommittee so you have five minutes is good to see you. >> thank you you all for being hereha mr. brown, follow-up on s question 70 national research council did an evaluation looking at different modes of transportation. and it question related to this we just want to make that i understand are pipelines is the safest mode of transportation when compared to other modes. >> well sort of a obligated question but i think to your point is the fewest number of incidents, if you look at the

volume now ucs to his point, the severity of an incident could be tragic obviously. >> will absolutely agree without one make sure they understand it my reading of the natural research council's evaluation that compared the truck and train and barge another thing some of that it is the safest mode of transportation. >> yes. >> we should never strive or stop striving, to further and further improve safety and when be clear about you agree that the state of california uses - gas. >> will yes i've used it in the state of california. >> with also. not sure that i understand why some folks will sit here and talk about pipelines as this evil whenever the state uses it in science shows it is the safest mode of transportation let me be clear, i agree that we

need to continue striving and using technology to get better and better as safety and perfecting this but let's compare this to alternative suggest looking live full of an, just for the city of new york, just for the city of new york that according to the 500 new york in 2023, lithium-ion batteries because to her 67 fires and when and 50 injuries and 18 deaths. that is just in new york and justin 2023 you can't sit here and pretend like by stopping pipeline so that they're all these other alternatives that are that much better that doesn't even include the fact that manyy of the energy solutions that my friend fromro california talking about include mining as he talked about, slave labor, child labor, safety jesse death across the globe. and so i think we need to be very thoughtful and careful about pretendingen a self thrall of these other safest better options out there.

and instead, focus on math and science shows the safest options in a short continue to learn from successes and failures and to continue to perfect it and is that fair. >> that's exactly what our agency does we also relate hazardous materials truck plane train on the bill. >> this for some he never said that in thank you and i appreciate that mr. your come i would like to ask you a question. since is not really make substantial changes had some of the class location recollections in over 50 years. can you talk a little bit about how perhaps updates and modernization there could result in actually enter safety outcomes. >> yes best location rules limit are currently designing updated fashion, potentially this population is reached, companies documented on regardless of whether or not there safer need to be pulled out they are first

and foremost him of the lookout for the workers of the communities in which we are looking for the communities environment we've offered in but also for the workers working so we can avoid we don't have to have this week i don't have to do it singly for going to use existing technology, to making same level of safety, sometimes it only people that are percent gas and hintzman hundreds of millions of dollars point out pipelines that we can re- divert them and then lastly i would say that annually the amount of gas that occurs from the blowouts just do these type replacements, exceeds even written million - natural gas to europe which same amount of gas of 10000 homes using if we can avoid that so many same level. >> when the omission. >> one of the quick question i apologize i'm running out of time can you talk briefly about the regulation of implant

pipelines as opposed to those external battery. >> when the statute was a really originally created, he gave very specific and giving the authority to waive his authority over implant piping or liquid pipelines but it didn't provide the same level for natural gas pipelines in what we would go to see him to see is that it has the same level of authority and osha which currently manages those refineries have the same authority. >> in some cases see regional managers exercise jurisdiction whenever they headquarters to my guess is creating infusion in the industry. >> him out of time but i just want to thank you mr. brown, i am concerned about what he just brought up about some of the deadlines in the lot i don't think your agency has the discretionon to determine when e play something if we write a lot citizens that have the ability to choose when avoiding appointment i don't think we need to work on better

strategies. >> i now recognize mr. johnson for five-minute. >> thank you mr. chairman, for pulling this very very important. i think you to theri witnesses r appearing today. mr. brown, pipelines often route hazardous materials through densely populated areas which can become public safety emergencies in the event of pipeline failure. but in some events, communities are not made aware of pipelines till something is wrong. when obligation new pipeline operators have to inform the public about location and likely risks of pipelines. >> we have a host of requirements we impose on those operators to inform. so the resigns and science requirements and there is emergency planning requirements and notification requirements.

in this possibly were updating this last year during 2022. and we updated those working on further updates as well so that is something that we stay focused on for precisely the reasons you may just be you in our pipeline operators require double public meetings every pipeline incident. >> no, and that is something we've really taken on as an agency when the public does not have the information and encourage their in their community. and we have tried to provide information that we have but of course we don't operate that pipeline we don't normally overseee the operation and so that is something that i think an operator, when it affects the community, that they should communicate to the community and give a chance to get to those questions. >> thank you, the bipartisan pipeline safety reauthorization

bill focuses on the safety of the millions of miles of gas while they currently in use in new pipelines required for carbon dioxide, and the bill us for a steady by the government accountability office and the need and ability to create a localized it emergency alert system in the event of pipeline accidents, when information isac needed until first responders when responding to a pipeline incident. >> the type of pipeline for the product in the pipeline that failed and the potential impact of the failure which homes and places could be and be impacted by the philly work emergency efforts are best the children place in evacuation and then i think the need for such a system, made more by co2

pipeline. reporter: and because they can move so far away of 500 plume after failure because sometimes people should evacuate his investment they should children place is not a one-size-fits-all the weather affects what direction he could move, things liked that. >> is the information needed my first responders thank you just outlined is that information always ready available and where is that obtained from. >> is not always readily available. some of that information about the type of pipeline that it is some physical characteristics of the pipeline and the location can be found on the national mapping system but other information about me together to that specific failure would not be and first responders we need to rely on indication from the operators to get the kind of information and i think the two done very failures, they show

what can happen not break down when there's regular. >> will thank you and with local communities this take coders crucial to raising awareness about pipeline safety risks also feeling trust in the pipeline operators and regulators. vitecat 2023, creating new offie of public engagement, to educate local governments and public safety organizations that pipeline operators in the public about pipeline safety and bestsa practices and regulations and the goal is to ensure access to information but precipitating conversation and addressing community concerns printed to promote transparency and accountability, how are you or how you're able to bridge the gaps for how are able to bridge the gaps between industry stakeholders including public safety officials for small companies local communities.

>> i think there's still a big need for public engagement especially after failure said i think that sums up has made some real improvements there over the last few years and is visited the communities after failure and whether the proposed new project that's been great to see but there's been a lot of progress to be made and definitely appetite for it on the public. >> the gentleman yields in any further questions many members of the committee that have not been recognized. >> i see not in this concludes our hearing today and i think you all for being here today and look forward to mr. brown any questions that need to be answered be timely without in the next couple weeks you should be able to what this committee stands jordan.

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