your screen when you hit play on select videos. this timeline tool makes it easy to quickly get an idea of what was debated and decided in washington. criminal through and spend a few minutes on c-span's points of interest. >> c-span is your unfiltered view of government. we're funded by these television companies and more including comcast. >> you think this is just a community center? no, it's way more than that. >> comcast is partnering with a thousand community centers to create wayfy-enabled lift zones so students from low income if families can get the tool they need to be ready for anything. >> comcast supports c-span as a mix service along with these -- public service along with these other television providers. giving you a front row seat to democracy. ♪ >> the chief of the u.s. forest service, randy the moore, testified on the is the i -- agency's budget before the senate energy and natural resources committee.

during his remarks, chief mere also talked about -- chief moore also a talked about efforts to mitigate wildfires for parts of the western united states with. this is an hour and 25 minutes. [inaudible conversations] >> committee will come to order to. this morning we're here to discuss the president's fiscal year 2025 budget request for forest service. i'd like to begin by thanking chief randy moore and the forest

service budget director for being with us this morning. thank you both. i look forward to hearing about the justification for the 366 -- 6.5% increase requested. although may would normally be just the start of the fire season, we've already had record-breaking wildfires as is becoming all too common. in february while it was still snowing, over 1 million acres in texas burned killing 2 people and burning 1300 poems -- homes -- 130 homes. i me my colleagues from wen states are on pins and needs. our committee has considered several bills that would support and improve wildfire response network from increasing the use of technology for wildfire detection to integrating local communities loggers and volunteer firefighters into wildfire suppression efforts on federal land. in the mean teem, congress has tried to address this problem at the source by investing heavily

inti hazardous fuels reduction. between the bipartisan infrastructure law and the inflation reduction act, the forest service has been given -- [inaudible] i'm so sorry. has been given about $12 the with on top of your -- billion on top of your annual appropriations. now that we're a few years into those the law, today's a good opportunity for us to take stock ofop how the forest service is implementing those historic investments as well as the proposed budget for the fiscal year 2025. as i mentioned, the bipartisan infrastructure law and the i.r.a. will add a senate extra boost to the forest service boost for forest management each year with. to bee honest, chief moore, i am frustrated how little these extra investments is have moved the need on the agency's performance metrics. i dodo appreciate that last year was a banner year for the forest service in terms of acres treat theed. more than 4.3 million acres. that's a million acres more than the previous year and it sets an

agencyse record. some of your performance metrics were less encouraging. for example, your timber target for last year was 3.4 million board feet, you missed that by about 2600 m. you had a target of 16 improved watersheds, you only managed 6. you told us the that it takes time to develop these prompts and we should be patient. instead of continuing the ramp up treatments, however, the agency's target is actually going down over the next two years. so one of the issues i hope we'll explore today is why the historic funding provide voided by those two bills aren't translating better into on--ground action. the backdrop to our discussion beyond impending fire season is a rash of saw pill closures this year including six in my home state e of west virginia. i knew that wood products market has been especially volatile since the pandemic. we've heard aem number of repor, however, that longstanding saw mills are simply running out of

nearby material and need to haul logs in from further and further away which significantly cuts into their already thin margins. more consistent, reliable offerings would undoubt cannedly help these struggling operators. what'ser also concerning about these mill closures is that the forest service's wildfire if. strategy is fundamentally feint on a robust network of mills that can process the material from our nation's forest. as we recently heard of our hearing withth the wildfire commission, revenue-generating timber that harvests are are critical to pay for prescribed fire reforestation. if done right, timber or harvest can provide a return to the federal taxpayer, increase the health of our forests and support critical industry partnerses. the forest service as has used somese innovate we've models in the past. for example, last year the agency piloted a timber transport project to salvage burned timber in california and ship it to struggling saw mills in wyoming. that makes all the sense in the world.

we shouldn't just be letting salvageable timber rot. i've said this so many times in these hearing. ines the long term, congress can also help develop markets for the small diameter timber that often a comes from wildfire mitigation projects that as -- as we're thinning and cleaning. in fact, several of the provisions i introduced with ranking member barrasso would do just that. quhowever, we simply cannot affd the lose all of our -- to lose all a of our existing mill structure while that a market grows, and i hope we will hear howl the forest service can further expand on efforts like the timber transport project. lastly, i know the forestry often get the lion's share of attention but i also want to highlight the tremendous role our national forest plays when it comes to our outdoor recreation economy. last year the 159 million visitors to forest service lands generated billions in economic activity and supported nearly 180,000 jobs. unfortunately, the forest

service has a deferred maintenance backlog of more than $7 billion including $5 billion in maintenance just finish maintenance just foror the loads alone. the roads don't just provide access to our recreation lands, but are vital attarlies for rural communities. perhaps even more concerning, our roads in poor condition threat thesens our ability to deemploy fire fighter firefighters. as wero with approach the expiration of hand if story funding for facilities maintenance that would provide -- we provided in the great american outdoors act, it's worth asking what what changes could be made to better address the t next set of hurdls facing the forest service? chief mere, i want to thank you again for being here today. i think i speak for all a of us when i say we just don't want you to succeed, we need you to succeed. i look forward to hearing your perspective on the plans for the year ahead, andnd with that, i'l turn to my friend, senator barrasso, for his opening

statement. >> thanks soso much, mr. chairm. thanks so much for coming. i share your concerns. historic investments, failure to meet the targets. that's what you've pointed out, that's what people continue to point out year after year. wyoming's forests including our eight nationalng forests help sustain our way of life, they support ourur local communities. the case across the west, our forests face many challenges esincluding wildfire, drought, insect and and disease outbreaks, additional pressures from the saw mill closures. in 9197-- 1976 wyoming saw mills could process over 300 million board feet every year. forests were healthy and priskt. according to the forest service's latest that 2006s, wyoming's mills can now process just with 100 million board feet, so it goes from 300 million to 100 million, that's a two-thirds drop in our capacity, and now the health of our national forests is poor, the wildfire if risk is high, and we

don't make things better in a way to manage if our national forests, the risks are going to keep growing, things are going to get worse. so i look toward to hearing how the targets can be hit to address these critical challenges, and i'm pleased with some of the priorities in the budge. funding to protect our communities from catastrophic fire, also pay raise for our wild land firefighters. i do have concerns also about the budget because for years the festst service has asked congres for more and more money, and we've a heard it from both sides of the aisle, that a money has been granted. congresses has responded by giving the agency billions of dollars in additional taxpayer funds. since 2021, congress has given the agency more than $40 billion, with a b, $40 billion. yet the forest service has not treated more acres. it's not sold more timber. it's not expedited the environmental review process for forest management prompts. mr. chairman -- projects. the question continues, where have all these taxpayer dollars gone?

i acknowledge the forest if service faces enormous challenges as a it combats wildfires, yet despite having g more money than ever, the agey has not done the work on the ground to address the crisis. in fact, the agency expects to treat fewer acres than it did last year in year. is and for the -- this year. and for timber hard levels to remain flat in fiscal year 2025, this is completely unacceptable. in wyoming sustainable timber harvests support our local communities. they reduce wildfire risk, they improve forest health. but year after year we find ourselves in the same situation. inconsistent log splice from the national forests underline mine our local saw mills. without a dependable and affordable supplyde of timber there if our public land, these family-owned businesses cannot survive, and we know it all too well in wyoming. if just last month nieman enterprise, a family business in wyoming, had to announce

layoffs. they hated doing it. this is a direct red light of the forest service's -- result of the forest if service's decision toe reduce harvest levels in the black hills national forest. the forest service has upended the lives of 50 harden working employees and their families, it's jeopardized jobs at a nearby if wood product facilities and has put at risk the health of the black hills national forest. the decision to reduce the timber sale program on the black hills will reverse or years of progress. without active management, that forest is going to return to the same condition that resulted in the wildfires and the beetle kill. this is exactly what we are trying to avoid. yet the forest service seems indifferent to the consequences of their own ina action. inaction.d there's broad agreement on this committee that the forest service is not meeting the challenges it confronts. the forest if service no longer safeguards and promotes forest health. it's now just managing the deterioration of our national forests. the forest service is must

changege course, must start managing our forests in a serious and credible way. look, we know what works. we know what we need to do, and the forest product sector is willing to help get the work done. mr. chair. .. the president's budget names three primary goals for us to modernize wildland fire management, and to sustain investments critical to our mission, to ensure equitable access and benefits to america. today i will share our progress as to commit serious challenges i will share to be a sound investment. we won her 93 million acres of national for system land reach across boundaries to assist

states, tribes, and communities as well as private land owners to get millions of force it acres healthy and productive. every american benefits from these directly or indirectly. together these lands provide basic needs for life, clean air and water. but they contribute to the energy production and they support the local economies, national forest alone contribute more than 400 10,000 jobs and $44.3 billion to the gross domestic product. to sustain productivity and health force must be able to withstand threats posed by wildfires, claimant, insects and disease. we invest resources to act and ensure that foremost we prioritize work to reduce wildfire risk, safeguard communities create resilient forests we launched a 10 year wildfiree crisis strategy and we

have moved to implement it. annual appropriations coupled with the historic bipartisan infrastructure law andon inflatn reduction act and provide us extraordinary opportunity to take bold and strategic actions. we did just that. leeve progressed to deliver on a promise to increase the pace and scale of our treatment. thnot treating any acre we are treated the right figures in the right places and at the right scale. we focused initial efforts on 21 priority landscapes within western fire sheds that are at the highest risk. they count for roughly 80% of wildfire risk for these are paying dividends experts report roughly $700 million worth of infrastructure are at risk for these pervy landscapes. this includes $6.5 billion of municipal water spread supply drinking water wildfire risk to these assets by 8% reduce the

risk for infrastructure by 8% for housing and then we also reduce the risk to watershed by 12%. what does that mean? more than $175 million worth of homes were at risk. national forests 17 communities are at lower risk including towns of cold springs and strawberry. a million socially vulnerable people are at lessle risk. nearly half of the nation's forest lands and priority landscapes are considered unlikely to burn at high intensity. we must remain on course and build on these gains. we must also invest in our firefighters. we recognize the urgency of investing and a permanent comprehensive pay increase to provide a more livable wage enhance recruitment and stabilize retention. we must also prove housing conditions that provide better care for firefighters, physical and mental health. ween look forward to seeing an d

to reports of firefighters living in cars with few benefits and limited mental health care. in addition work to address the welfare crisis and firefighters we continue to take action that support access and benefits from forest. visitor use, hunting and fishing, energy and mineral development, forest products and livestock generate 69% of the contributions to the economy rethinks the great american out direct funds with the relief of the pressure $8.6 billion backlog. budget request 58 million to maintain critical recreation services with a focus on offering welcoming equitable opportunities were also make a difference in our urban environment. ford's service and partners are planning to maintain trees and the cities and suburbs for 84% of americans live. teresa met extreme heat and climate change also 2025 budget

returns basic funding to most programs this includes forest products which are vital to sustain rural communities this includes sustainable timber supply photo it's a critical component part of a market-driven system we do not control markets we can support industry through forest products and wouldld innovation want to help adapt and modernize. the current industry adopts the agency is taken strives to support the existing industry but one investing over the last three years directly supporting sawmills other manufacturing facilities. when baskets with mills transport program authorize contracts to provide relief from the decline of demand for the paper products. in closing, we are fully committed to me the challenges beforein us with resources congress has provided and the

people of america deserve nothing less than to see their money put to work for the benefit of all thank you i welcome your questions. critical start questions thank you. chief your budget integrates you have increased by more than 3000 in place since 2021, 3000 i understand about a month ago in situ 30 day hiring pause. for non- fire staff to have a strategic and have a handle on your budget we like to know you came up with. >> mr. chairman we increased our workforce by 4000 people. that was her plan from the beginning we lost about 40% of the non- fire workforce over the last 20 years. >> how many were hired in areas vacant for years to fill those positions or an area do you beef up or as needed? >> so, we did a number of things we had to bring in a new skill set toki complement the skill st we currently have. we look at the trends developing in this country. puts things in front work with

partners. working with communities. we also need to add to our skill set people know how to work with communities people who know how to bring people to the table to facilitate and bring meetings because we ultimately want to do was sure the decision space with local communities. we had to invest and skill sets. >> how much of this going through bonuses your present employers or employees questioning the people have on staff. much of that percentage of that money go for that or for hiring the people? >> no, we routinely provide vibonuses based on performance t the end of the year. he was nothing extra at with this money. >> if you could give us a break down what kind of employees are hired and how they are contriving to the agency's mission that be very helpful for this committee. >> be happy to do that since 2020 the amount of force system four systemlands in need of manl reforestation has increased by within 2060%.

two catastrophicye wildfires at the forest service has said only 6% of post wildfire planning needs are met annual it's growing at that rate you're not even touching it. >> first, mr. chairman owns it thanks to congress for that replant act and has given us the ability to lift the cap we we hadan reforestation of your customer figure be done more than 6%? >> no, i would not argue with the figures. [laughter] >> is a pretty poor performance on thaty as far as getting up o speed. >> may respond? >> is a need to clear hazardous trees from burnt anchors increase the costs for reforestation projects? if a burnt out area. the way i understand it sits there until it rots away and nog 34 stood in those areas can you do both simultaneously? >> in no. so for context and prior to that

replant act we had a cap of about $30 million for reforestation. the problem we have been having over let's say 15 -- 20 years as every of the number of acres burned is increasing. and so on average to adding 500,000 acres per year. we've only been able to treat in or between 100 or 200,000 acres based on the funding level that we have a pic or content bothered me more of the image anything is salvaging the burnt timber that has value to it why are we not able to do that? >> that is an excellent question. was a really complex answer at least multiple reasons that contribute to this. one is that you know, when we try and have large timber sale products to recruit recoup, many times we get litigated on that. even where we are litigated. >> who litigates why would they litigate? you can re- forest and cut and

salvage and reports at same time provokes mr. chairman with our democratic process the factor public agency threat of million people. >> summer upset. >> yes. so ourps challenges as we go through the litigation to defend why we're doing what we want to do. winning is not the answer. delaying these cells along that they begin to lose a value so they are not worth purchasing after a period of time. depending on where you are it reduces the value of the wood. the challenge we have is how do we remove that timber and a really quick weight. so our approach has been to take small pieces of that and to do what we can to remove the timber rwhile it has value for parcel # #western, 25 mills around 25 bells are shut down this year near our federal force including several in my own home state of westridge and of the reason very

i'm concerned with impact is going have on rural communities as was impact on carrying out the forest service management goals. what authorities you have to ensure a consistent supply of federal timber and give these a sawmillsa some ability to weathr the current market volatility? >> we have been working with a lot of these sawmills in fact we have been looking at wood innovations. we have invested $79 million specifically to sawmills into the industry to help them transition while this is going on in our country. >> go with going to transition is have access to the product for. >> air market-driven conditions they are responding too. which also has an impact on whether they're interested in tethe lobby timber sales on national forests. when you look at the economy in and of itself is moving away from paper products that is a negative impact on some of the mills that produce a type of material. we know that small and low value type materials most of our

facilities use large communis commercial salt logs a part of what we want to do is help and work with industry to transition to have a more diversified portfolio if you will and look at some of the products, biofuel, biochar, nanuet fellowships material, cross lemonade timber. these are the types of technology that is emerging. but our infrastructure in general is not set up to use capitol material in abundance. we are trying to work with industry to transition to that. i think you're going to see some really interesting things come from industry sometime later this summer there'd. >> i do think were making the adjustment. >> think it mr. chairman, 63 million acres of our national sorest high or very high risk of wildfire right now. the pastor agency treated fewer than 4 million of the 63 millioy plans this coming year to treat even less than that.

63 million last time, 4 million, no less thanmi that this year wh a budget more and more money getting less and less. at this declining rate is going to take your agency about two decades just to treat all the high risk areas within our national forest today. trees are going to continue to grow. is this really a credible strategy with all of the money that has been moved to the forest service a credible strategy to address this welfare crisis that congress is clearly behind the efforts financially to help commit to get done? >> you note senator, i think we are at a crossroads in this country. i think a part of it is up for the last 100 years we measure our performance on acres treated. i think with the wildfire crisis strategies give us an opportunity to do is take a look and see is that the right metric for performance? when you look at how this country's change of less when her beer since the forest service existence the number one a land-use in this country while

in urban interface development. that has had an impact on the national forest because you have a lot of communities there sitting adjacent to it right next to a national forests. and so we have to ask ourselves that i would love to dig deeper into this with you in this committee, what is the appropriate performance is acres treated or the right acres treated? and if our job is to protect communities from wildfire we had to look at outcome-based reporting rather than output based reporting or at least the combination of the two. the outcome would be we protect the community from the risk of wildfire. >> we have not been doing a very good job of protecting its wildcards mean this seems like a complete lack of urgency by your department and dealing with all of this. if you do not like the results you change the metrics, that is ridiculous but that is reduced don't like the result of more and more at wildfires we have a hearing in washington state

happened a number of years ago is just not seem to be improving. does not seem to get better at all in spite of a massive additional expenditure of taxpayer money. to say were going to change the metrics is absolutely ridiculous. so enterprises announced layoffs of the shift reduction for thatt fish forest products facility. i understand the owner did everything possible to avoid the layoffs. these layoffs are a direct result of reductions to the timber sale program for the black hills national forest. what is the agency doing to help retain the remaining forest products infrastructure in the blackk hills? >> as i indicated earlier we've invested $79 million. specifically to sawmills but we work directly with this lineman and his facility. as a matter fact look at the transport authority it originated in order to help him. remove timberov from over to warming to their facility.

multiple reasons the industries going through transition and is not just for service supply it's market-driven conditions. it is the cost of the labor that's continuing to increase rates of lack of labor shortages. it's a number of things contributing to these facilities. >> not having a labor shortage have a job shortage as a result of the decisions made. i found the answer unacceptable. another question conditions in bocarbon county in johnson coun, wyoming road you specifically have a copy of the letter opposing forest service plan for old-growth areas on our national i asked to put this in the wreck of grout both counties asked to be made a cooperating agency these requests were made in january and february. one can expect to receive a response? >> i am not aware specifically what you're talking about but i will look into that and get back with you on that.

>> will you agree to make these counties a t cooperating agency? >> i cannot say that without looking at what they are requesting. when you look at what did they mean when they say cooperating agency? we don't want to -- we want to dig into that to see specifically what they do this a little seen a big c. >> it's drafting the old growth plan without state input without local input and that is why i have a bill. the disastrous proposal. my final question, mr. chairman, chief more you talk a lot about the abundance of low enough value material international forests. the agency's own data also shows an abundance of large diameter high value material international forests. let's give it a massive infusion of taxpayer dollars. how is it timber harvest international forests are today below what they were six years two and 2018? >> actually, senator, since 2002

seen a gradual increase the amount of timber that's removed. associate number of acres treated. i would say and have a chart that will show the increase from 2000 and all the way up until 2023. we are seeing a slight increase over that period of time. >> the last six years. comes down to where they are now bicycles all the back to the 80s. >> go back to america is not discovered we were not harvesting anything. or dropping down in spite of the massive amount mr. chairman my time is up. >> you done? >> i am done. [laughter] quick senator cantwell. >> chief more, i think the frustration you are hearing is that if you look at this panel here, we are on the front lines. we all see innovative

opportunities to have a better response. that is what we want to see. we know the ponderosa pine is going to burn down and so we think well, that's what the predictions are because of the dry conditions, why not harvest that put into cross lemonade timber make greater economies in local communities, and store carbon instead. so, i think that something probably everyone on this panel would agree with. but as senator barrasso said we are not moving fast enough to do that. i think we have very historic policies that need to shift. one of those i believe it needs to shift faster as small business administration timber set-aside program. smaller meals are taken the innovation risk. they are saying we will do laminated timber we will do innovative things but you are not giving them the supply. what can we do to make sure the

small business timber set-aside program actually works? you actually give these mills a supply? right now they're not getting that selects their barely hanging on. >> first of all i would support the sba set-aside. i would like to point out to you yowe have what i would considera significant success in utah. you had a small logger we worked with him to do his own marketing from material. while that forest is not cut a lot of timber traditionally, historically they have gone from almost no program to this longer it went from one truck to nine trucks. they cannot keep up a. >> great i'll have a few minutes i've got to get to other things. would you provide meet with an overlay map of where we think our highest risk pine forest are going to burn down and show me

where you're willing to put set-aside small business you to do it do for the pacific northwest. could you provide that to us? >> sure. the weather service information is critical. will help you in the coming aware of what the risks are for the forest service a better science coordination with noaa? >> yes, i do. in fact we have a long-standing agreement with and know what we do include them. i would also just like to add and looking at the fires that have been down in new mexico, also in addition to the larger weather station information. the local weather bursts that the larger weather stations pick up. so in that we also need to look

at additional types of equipment that would give our on the ground people better information better real-time information before they began to do a lot of the prescribed burns for. >> we absolutely need this we lost firefighters because essential part ofau her said tht one weather forecast in seattle just over the ridge, over the mountains they were saying it something else. high volatility we lost a fire parts because we did not have that information. we want the best information for a need to ask about fixed anchors and wilderness areas these are important aspects of climbing prior to designations of wilderness. do you think fixed anchors should be prohibited in wilderness areas? quick senator, their people on both sides of that issue. >> i am asking you apart and asking you whether you think question because i cannot give to an opinion to reach out republic. we are in the process now of having a draft direct being put out. we did receive comments back in january in fact we received about 9000 comments.

so we are in the process of analyzing that before we move out with the final. >> what you want people to do and wilderness areas? i would like them to go hiking and climbing but people have installed anchors and you're spending your time is in helping us get a bill, focusing on removing fixed anchors that's the wrong priority. maybe it will have to do legislation. i believe the answer is they belong particularly in areas they have already been pre-designation please support the climbing industry that is a benefiting from wilderness but that's all we have it so people can go and enjoy for it thank you very much chief more. quick senator lee. >> chief more i like to begin by asking to clarify something. a term i'm not familiar with but give me a big seat versus little c corporate agency? >> goes back to my experience for many years ago work with county supervisors, county

commissioners wanting to have a say in what finally happens in our documents. there is a way to do that. think the way to do that is to have a collaborative process with our problems in particular our elected officials. we think it is imperative they be included in what's going on prevent does not answer my questionmy anyway. i've got limited time maybe you can respond and write a really do need to know what the differences between a big seat d lower c cooperating agency. not defining a lot i've never heard of it not in your guidance documents, rules or anything like that. i've got to move on just respond to that when writing if you can. the draft plan for the national forest proposes 122,780 acres of quote unquote recommended wilderness. this is really concerning to me. congress passed the utah wilderness act in 1984.

thero product of eight long a ld hard-fought compromise made by the state of utah and is something that designated wilderness in exchange for assurance. assurance no future utah wilderness designation will be made. the forest service appears to be ignoring this history. both the state and the individual county resource county resourcemanagement planso that area. the only way we get healthy forest is by having flexibility to perform active management of the force it turns out as we've learned over the last few decades you let the thing just go is terrible. what we're doing with throughout utah is a patchwork this patchwork of designated wilderness, recommended wilderness and inventoried a roadless area a nightmare. practically unachievable for these updated force plans will only make the situation worse i

have them drafted. we explain how they were developed to the state and local county input apparently disregarded completely in the preferred alternative question works for supervisors planning to meet the county supervisors to cooperate on that forest plan issue. >> how did that go? >> it is not taken place yet. they are scheduled to have a meeting to discuss the very issue you are bringing up. we'll be happy to let you know how they go once the meeting takes place. >> yes after the draft plan was released but before that it didn't happen that way? i don't know why i should have any assurance of ago any better now. every single state official and county commissioner that i talk to seems to frustrated with the way the forest service manages forest service land. all of these local officials ask for is a real seat at a real table in these important

decisions that have to be made. decisions that affect us, our local m communities much more directly than anyone else. we all want healthy forest we want catastrophic wildfires avoided. the consequence of bad policy hit some of us a lot more than they hit others. for example both the ashley and the lists out proposals the forest service appears willing to enter into coat management arrangement with tribes. with tribes but refuses to incorporate state and county comments into the planning process. if the forest service can enter comanagement arrangements with the tribes why exactly can't it enter a similar arrangement county governments and the state government? quick senator, we do honor the county government we do work within the same we were with tribes. in fact we prior work for the county government so we do tribes for.

>> comanagement? >> know for. in my experience for. >> tribes are a sovereign nation we deal with them differently. >> yes estates are also solving their coat sovereign states are co- sovereigns tribes have their own elements of his co- sovereignty. quick senator wheatfield they have a seat at the table. i am not sure -- i'm not sure it were not doing exactly what you're saying. >> them surgeon you are not i'm certain you are not. the 2001 roadless rule establishes prohibition on road construction and on timber harvesting 58.5 million acres of inventoried roadless areas and national forest service lands. national forest system lance is at 2001 roadless rule helped or hindered with wildfire mitigation efforts? >> are supposed is going to depend on your perspective senator. >> helped or hindered which one?

what site do not have a say whether it helps or hinders regardless of what you do doesn't describe it in your aassessment has it helped or hindered wildfire mitigation efforts? >> i don't think it was designed to help the wire wildfire mitigation, sir. thank you. quick senator heinrich. >> chief, welcome. a number of us on this committee worked really hard on the great americando outdoors act that gae five years of extra funding to tackle the maintenance and backlog at a number public land agencies including yours. it's fixing up places like the recreation areas fixing up campsites in the recreation area. we are now in year four of the five. can you walk through for me what percentage of forest service funds from fiscal year 21 and 22, the first two were under contract now?

>> yes, et cetera can i get you that information? what can you get that for the record? i want to make sure -- we are seeing progress. but we are well into that we want to make sure those funds make it to the ground they really open up opportunities for local communities in terms of the economic opportunities that come with public land recreation. the wildland fire mitigation management commission that gao found there's not enough affordable available and adequate housing to recruit or retain wildlife firefighters something you reference in your testimony. these are folks that families count on to protect them from these catastrophic wildfires. it is the funding that you requested in this budget enough to clear the backlog on firefighting housing maintenance? >> no, sir, not by longshot

piglets how much of a dent will it make? >> the backlog is about three and 50 million acres. anything less than that is not going to get at the backlog. >> i am saying in terms of housing, and the additional funds you have requested what scale of progress are you going toke make and should making sure thour firefighters have access o adequate and well constructed house? >> and the funds were requesting it now i i think we have $25 million we are planning to put toward improving the housing situation but in fact we are lit completely redoing one barracks making a lot of necessary changes to many of the other barracks and houses. >> can you get us a full list of those? if it's a cart before the horse and if we do not have adequate housing were not going to havein the firefighting force to be able to actually deal with the challenges of my colleagues have

described books i would agree wholeheartedly. >> only lasted talk the forest service was finalizing a contract to repair santa fe national forest fence that keeps cattle from trespassing onto the neighboring property which is the national preserve. what is the status of that contract at this point? >> we have agreed to put up a million dollars toward the structure we agreed to go a haves on the maintenance of the fence once it's done. f >> is that contract not the maintenance contract with the repair contract is that been executed? >> of a meeting set up with the parkti service. we have an agreement in place but we have not signed off on that agreement. the agreement would be half on both the actual construction of the fence and the maintenance of the fence. >> is been a long timee coming o

i would u just urge you and director sams to figure this thing out. it is a continual source of friction in the area. >> yes. >> last week the lincoln national force set down the sitting bull falls recreation area. it's a popular spot about an hour from carlsbad that families enjoy over the summer in particular. why is it sitting bull falls close and was the forest service plan to get reopened? >> my information says that is not closed. even though there is some staffing challenges. the facility is open but there's also maintenance needs for that facility. >> it is my understanding at least from what i have heard from the public is that it is closed. we need to get our staff together on that and figure out is to make sure that especially is beginning to the summer season and demand is particularlyis high we maximize

that facility. >> in fact my information tells me they are ready for the memorial day weekend. i will check that pickwick cell be a pleasant surprise. let's work on that. thank you chief, thank you. >> we have senator murkowski. >> thank you, mr. chairman, chief, good to see you again. you y are in front of the interr appropriations subcommittee about a month ago. you made a comment then that resonated with me. you sit i can say with certainty that if we do not have a vibrant timber industry we are not going to be able to manage our workforce and make them healthy and resilient, good statement. it just seems contradictory to the weight the national forces met in the forest service has completely shifted away from offering viable inventory of timber and in the case of the tongass they have pulled the rug

out from under the industry you and i've talked about this a lot. they abandoned the transition policy that secretary bill sacco forced on them during the obama administration. the timber industry that's practically nonexistent right now. and it kind of speaks to your statement it's impossible to have a healthy and resilient for us without a vibrant timber industry we don't have a vibrant timber industry. so, can you share with me, other than a research into and used forest products what is the forest service doing to help support the few remaining small mill operators that are located in the tongass? >> so, senator murkowski you knowmr better than anyone just e history of timber. >> brexit out all too well, i have lived it. >> i still stand by my statement

that without a vibrant timber industry we will not be able to manage our pickwick so what do i tellel our small mill operators there in southeast questioner is their future for them or do they need to pack up, let their employees go elsewhere? what's he certainly think there is a future there. what we need to do is work on how much of that is available to be harvested? >> it is the largest national forest in the country. there'spl plenty of available timber it is the supply as you well know the cells put up don't result in anything for even the smallest of the small timber sawmills. >> and you know, senator, were guided by letter policies and regulations with the policies and regulations are such tongass has been shut down effectively for timber harvesting. that is pretty much it straight let me shift southeast alaska sustainable strategy because

that was the promise we are going to cut off timber or not going to be harvesting. for not putting up tales for timberer there. we are going to give you resources from the federal government, $25 million. i asked you last month about the funding that secretary vilsack had promised. he said again 25 million is the first tranche i asked for an update on additional funding. you shared with me the same thing secretary vilsack did southeast his scouting funding through ira. that is true. but as i reminded everybody, this a promise on the southeast sustainable strategy was well before we had even thought about it or ira. and so in fairness that does not

count. that is not keeping the promise of secretary vilsack. you indicated you're going to double check on the status of where we are, what southeast might be able toat expect. because right now i have got these small local mills that are thinking maybe that is part of our survivability strategy were going to be getting some kind of support from this additional sources of funding from this sustainable strategy pickwick senator, you are right. we had $25 million originally. since then we have provided additional 50 million but i will look to see how much of that is other funding. i know it was 50 additional million provokes a bet i can beat you to the breakdown on that. unfortunately, one quick question before my time is out. you know that just last week we introduced the alaska land exchange oil spill recovery act.

this grants ownership of approximately 65000 acres of culturally significant economically viable land. this completes the promise under the dingle act. this is the result of several years of groundwork by the entire alaska delegation. and working with the department of interior and forest service i know you worked on that. iho am hoping i can get your commitment that forest service is going to work proactively with our office so we can advance this legislation and address the split state ownership challenge. >> yes we are committed to continuing our work with you on that >> want to get it done sooner than later, thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you mr. chair. thank both of you for being here today. mr. moore, i always appreciate

your affection for our forests in your commitment to it, which i share. every time i'm in the forest i feel like i am getting better i'm getting somehow my life resolves itself in positive ways. i want to reiterate what senator cantwell talked about the issues around fixed anchors in various parts of the national forest. we have a proposal and with the recreation act allows the fixed anchors that are in place to remain in place the house built come across i think we are going to do it reconciled the bridges to alert you that is coming. there are two sides to this. might look at the cost and the imposition to try to go out and remove fixed anchors or make it a decision process you have to f go through and every national park. it really does not make very much sense. there is certainly a strong

sediment that way throughout the senate. let me ask you a question about house and we talked about housing for firefighters. many of these smaller towns across the west into a certain extent in the east as well are having housing issues. id think local communities have asked us where that we could talk to the forest service during joint venture partnerships for housing that might be employees of the fire service but also for local teachers or nurses could not sufficiently compensated to be able to afford housing with a live. is there an opportunity there? >> absolutely. in fact this is one of the crisis facing america it certainly has an impact on the forest service. your own state has been one of our pilot areas on the old white river national forest we are looking at working with the community to build homes in

exchange for homes for our employees. that is set a tone that is starting to be spread across the nation to be creative in how we really address this issue. but itou is all of our issues as all of our communities issues i am glad toam see where the communities are coming together to work with us and vice versa to try to fix this issue. because of the end of the day if we do not have employees in many of these locations we cannot do the job you're asking us to do. >> and in the end we are all in it together the approach is an excellent example of their couple examples you guys are working on it. i didn't want to brag about colorado being the innovator. butt such as it is. and you have not had a chance to hold forth i feel a more philosophical question not an adversarial tone but i was covered for eight years we had some of the worst the beginning of this phase of wildfires that

were immense, enormous and they continue. people can argue back and forth we do not need to debate here that causes of the change in climate. but clearly wildfires are increasing. the conditions, the humidity nearest everything is changing to make them more frequent and worse. i was always a puzzled and i spent a lot of time firefighting out of the control centers. so often we spent an enormous amounts of money and then the wind would change. our fire line would be over run. we'd go around in the fires are so malevolent that it's almost like they have an evil spirit. our best intentions, they come back in directions we cannot anticipate. how do we study that how do we begin looking at whether you are flying over dropping retardant mixed with water on the fire or digging trenches.

you guys must be doing studies at that point there is nothing i could look at that gave me comfort. every state i realize you guys are spending more money out of your budget as well but states are doing the same thing. there might be in need for better study and you are probably way ahead of me on this. >> i want the strategic planner here. not that you're not both strategically plan did not mean that her books. appreciate the question fire is a complex environment. luckily i oversaw all of the fire program and understand the changing conditions we face with fire just creates situation that becomes more volatile and unpredictable we have done considerable amounts of research purchases of the rocky mountain research station which is the hub of our fire research that is developed different thoughts about potential control points and different strategies to be able to manage these fires limit differently. is not so much about overwhelming force the entire

time thinking about where to might actually use the resources i have available and the actual ecological conditions to be able toto take advantage of those to address the fires more effectively perverts they will get my staff to reach out. i don't know what mr. morse went to add anything to that? >> you don't need to add anything i just want to save you wanted to add something to that. >> i think i would add is what you will see different now over the last couple of years as the incident command team structure we are allowing local people to come into the tent to share information about local conditions. there's been a lot of concern that sometimes the incident the team does not have local knowledge. we have responded to that by including some locals in the two sure that local knowledge requires good additional information we thank you both are being here got other questions on the colorado riverr some of the hydrology issues i'll put those into writing i

yield back to the chair. quick senator daines. >> chief moore, this discussion is fires continue to multiply across our country. many important forest management projects that would decrease the risk of catastrophic wildfires have been halted by litigation. in fact montana loan 300 million affect more than 300 million board feet is tied up in litigation. it stops the removal of hazardous fuels are just running our communities as well as the high-risk areas. just the threat of legal action forces the forest service to spend additional time making projects and bullet proof against litigation. in fact there is a small project in montana where the forest s service plan to harvest just over 1000 acres but spent 19

months from scoping, toe decision. created a 183 page environmental assessment. my bill, that i have to fix the ninth circuit cottonwood cottonwooddecision passed this e last may would be crucial in preventing some of the litigation and stopping wildfire mitigation work and i will continue to urge is a passage in the full senate. it would be a huge help for what you will have to do. but it is critical in the meantime the forest service and press forward with forest management projects and on the groundwork. the forest service traded 4.3 million acres and fiscal 2023 with nearly half of those treatment acres being prescribed fire. and of those acres nearly three quarters been done in the south. while it is good there's

there isnecessary work being dos the country, the crisis landscapes in montana and across the west where it is a bit more arid that need focus. the state of montana looking at the state efforts, more than tripledd their acres are treated from 20 to 20 until 2023. at thehe same time the forest service increased acres by about 34% of the state of montana tripled. we need to see the forest service follow the lead we are seeing and montana from our state place a greater emphasis and sense of urgency on increasing treated acres. my question for you is why does the forest service fiscal year 25 budget decrease the target number of acres treated from trr fiscal year 24?

>> so here again, senator, there's a lot there i will try to respond to it, in its entirety. when you look at our budget now a lot of the budget goes to reduction not timber production. when i look at the amount of timber that we are providing we have seen a steady increase i will go national but will come down to montana. we have seen an increase over the last 20 years of about 30% increase in timber. so while that perception is out there we are not producing timber, that is not accurate. when you look at what we are actually doing. not more specifically to montana i have gone out with governor to go out and visit i think it was the basin creek watershedhe area you have community there threatened by it wildfires. as a result of what the state is

doing, we matched that to treat the watershed area there. montana in and of itself is our leader across the country in good neighbor authority and using that authority. and so we have a lot of really good work taking place in montana. i will also tell you montana is almost a contiguous state in the country and it comes to forest product types of project. and so you have a lot of that coming to bear there. but here again i think that entire region would look at montana and idaho for that matter, they are doing some really excellent work with good neighbor authority in getting the work done. quick thanks for coming out to montana and spend time o with or governor appreciate that the bigger question is why would the target decrease four-point to million went at a time when we need more treatment quest make your target decrease year-over-year.

>> the target has gone up. when i look at 2025 too. >> i suspect you were talking the same my numbers four the target was four-point to million acres. hazardous fuel production. a .25 target is 4 million. it's 200,000 acres or less in terms of m your target that is e question why would he go down? >> i was thinking timber production not acres treated projects so for one reason the budget is gone down in hazardous fuel reduction per. the budget down and hazardous fuel reduction? >> we had a loss a lot of increase in costs. because you think about it if you are reducing hazardous fuel it's a way to preempt catastrophic wildfires which are

very expensive toro fight once they begin. >> writes in the fundamental question i was saying earlier that we really have to talk about, what is the new performance and metric is that protecting communities? and isn't protecting critical watershed these committees depend on? and if it is those acres are more expensive to treat. whwhere we have been measured by the number of acres treated we have put ourselves in a position where we are doing random acts of restoration across the landscapesra now because of that metric of output. while that is important, senator, what we are flying to the wildfire crisis strategy what is more important as protecting communities. and if you agree with that then perhaps we need to look at outcomes based on the work we are doing. also you have a lot of steep slope we are trying to get too. all of that is more expensive to try and achieve you do less work

because it takes more work. knowank you for that i your bouncing competing priorities in terms of cost. it's troubling at a time when we are seeingg increasingly buildus of hazardousup fuels. the target the poor servant went went down year of your four-point to into 4 million. you've got to look at where you spend at your target but m a rae that is a real concern when you think about that as an investment to try to reduce the cost to fight catastrophic wildfires. this isco kind of pay me now or pay later you pay a lot more later correct to give an example our target was 4 million we achieved 4.3 million. we achieved more thanmo what our target was in this year for 25 you looked at where the budget is going we do not have the same level of budget you did that amount of work coupled with the areas we are working and not which is more expensive. >> think it got to respect my

college time i'm over my time, she thank you. quick senator padilla for. >> think it mr. chair. chief moore, great to see it. thank you for always taking my calls we just think thank you for the great work you have been doing. obviously when we are in a pinch dealing with some challenges there is no shortage of it in the state of california. i want to begin by thanking you and your entire team at the forest service for your work and ingeneral but more specifically and more recently for your support in the expansion of the national monument in northern california and the san gabriel mountain monument in southern california which includes additionalal acreage in the national forest. it's a majoran accomplishment, appreciate your partnership working together and thank you for the support of beverly who

isis with this the celebration this last saturday doing to turn to anur issue that was touched n earlier in the hearing of federal firefighter pay i was approach introduced to a wildland firefighter protection act together with senator's sentiment which would protect the pate rays secured for wildland firefighters and a bipartisan infrastructure law. myue question to you and for the record is the proposed budget for fy 25 provides 216 million to implement a permanent comprehensive pay increase for firefighter workforce for you to the committee how the pay increases compared to the pay raises secured and the bipartisan for structure law? >> thank you, senator. one of the biggest differences the pay raise in the bipartisan of a structure bill does not allow that increase to be carried over into retirement. t that is one of the biggest

differences there. the other big difference between the two is our recruitment and aretention improves with a permanent version of that as opposed to the temporary version that has been extended to the resolution. and by the way, we think and appreciate congress for extending it. we also know we have a lot of nervous firefighters out there waiting to see if this is going to be permanent or not. and if by chance it is not we probably could expect to see a lot of our firefighters leaving for better pay and better opportunities. >> the general recruitment and retention issues across the workforce. i understand it is particularly acute amongst firefighters for think you answer my follow-up question. would it be helpful for your efforts for congress to pass a permanent pay increase i would assume the answer is yes. next i think it will certainly help. i think the federal workforce.

>> on a different topic recreation.gov has been in use. it's a popular website for users to book campsites and enter hiking lotteries or reserve vehicle passes with each of these transactions a small reservation fee is charged. making -- make many of us expect the entirety of their fees the booking on the b website directy benefit the public lands they treasure and they visit. some of the money is instead funneled to the website manager. which is been reported to be about $140 million in profits from 2018 until 2022. i think it is important we use thoughtful reservation systems that balance with the conservation efforts with public access. i am concerned there's a lack of transparencysp here around the e structure for the website. what is the status of the

recreation.gov contract with the forest service doing toic incree transparency of lottery and campsite applications? quick senator i can get you more specific that i have more assurance on in terms of accuracy. i can provide that to you. >> okay i'll take that as a follow-up and include in that please this was a topic of conversation the subcommittee hearing yesterday with the parks service i asked them to follow part of the best practices they are considering and assuring we design an equitable reservation system. including what they may need from congress to help improve outcomes. we've got to measure. the point i was making yesterday's it's one thing to build up access these expansions for example every new national park created provides access for the american public. we know there is a gap in access. which communities of color,

lower income communities visit the parks less. i just want to make sure when there is a reservation system online the way it is designed, the way people interface with it is a tool to help close the gap not exacerbate that gap. if you could put some of the information your follow-up i would really appreciate it. thank you for your service. now i pass it over to senator hogan for questions. >> thank you, senator padilla. chief, good to have you here. thanks to both of you gentlemen for joining us. we appreciate you and yoursc worker. hen chief, or working on getting out to north dakota and the national grasslands and june 24 is it something you plan to work on with us to get done question. >> yes. all i know is it is june i have agreed to a do not know the specific dates and overwork with your staff of her toes june 24, that week we will work with your staff. getting out there and seeing our

cowboys and energy producers and tourism officials and everybody else. they really appreciated they out to see you and have an opportunity to visit with you. we appreciate that. working on s to where you are identifying all your roads and access points out in the grasslands. will you commit to consulting with all relevant stakeholders as you work on that travel management plan? mr. moore: yes. >> and something we can talk about that as well. last year, we had deputy french out there. set a high bar for you. mr. mo . >> i told him toor be on standby to come with me. >> i don't know. he actually did a great job. we appreciate him being out there, met with our folks, also as a result of that effort

announced additional funding which is really important. first, 1.7 million allocated but commitment of 4 and a half million. i want to know that you stand behind that and that's something that we can talk about. >> yes, absolutely. >> good, thank you. senator padilla asked you about staffing needs, do you think you're making some progress there? that is a real issue for us as well having the staff out there? >> yes, we are making some progress on that. our challenge and it's not something that only a forest service's issue, it's an issue r many of our communities but we are struggling from time to time to find expertise, it's a challenge. >> it is, yeah. and so i just want to emphasize that as well. we really need folks out there in our part of the world too. testified maintenance, we passed american outdoors act as you know to get a lot of things one of which was deferred

maintenance in a big way not only in the parks but national grasslands and other places as well. what steps are you -- our state is putting money into this on a partnership basis with y'all and the next thing i'm going to ask program with the -- nrcs and so both our joint programs we are tryingam to leverage your abilities to get stuff tone out there and that includes a lot of things. you are focused on the aspects, tourism, some of those kinds of things but our grazers and ranchers, cowboys out there they need some fencing, they need water lines, they need dugouts, they need enhancements on the grounded and senator padilla we are talking about and hickenlooper in terms of

addressing fire, prescribed burns, all that kind of stuff, talk to me about both the partnership with the state on those issues where we will provide money to partner with you as well as m the joint chies program which bennett and i have workedch on legislatively here. >> yeah, on the good neighbor authority, we have -- that program has worked significantly working with the state, locals, we were hoping that we were seeing language in the farm bill that would treat the counties and the tribes the same as the states which would allow them to keep the revenues in the counties and in the areas where it was generated. so i believe that is and a version of a farm bill as we two forward but i think that would make a large difference in what the amount of work that we are able to do on the ground. i think when you look at the other piece there in terms of the -- the joint chief awards

projects, we just met with nrcs and we've just approved, i think, ten projects and so we to see a lot of value in the joint chiefs because it gives us an opportunity to more than anything work as one usta where we bring in a number of usda agencies together to do work across jurisdiction of boundaries and so we've been seeing a lot of value in that work and in that effort. >> yeah, those are things, again, and i will try to get our commissioner out there as -- as well and then finally, mr. chairman, this is on behalf of senator barrasso, he had one question he wanted know ask, with your indulgence i'll do that. epaha revised standard for particulate matter particularly matter 2.5 on the clean air act and so the concern is that it will effectively prohibit

prescribed fires, you know, prescribed burns in the west. that's something that we are concerned aboutom in the grasslands too turned new standards. under the standard will emissions put communities in violation of the lane air act? >> so how i would respond to that, senator, is that we've got to make some choices and if we to not allow prescribed fires to take place then wild fires is going to take place and while we argue and debate about the amount ofou particular matter w, i think, really need to have an honest conversation about what is it that we are trying to achieve and what are the lesser evils of this issue around fire, but prescribed fire, i think, is necessary to take place. >> exactly. and so us the congress need to provide an exemption for prescribed fires under the clean air act in your opinion? >> i think if congress did

provide that, we would be satisfied. >> thanks again for being here today and, for your work, we appreciate it. >> thank you, senator. >> thank you, senator. pass to senator barrasso there's bipartisan support. looking forward to working with him, chief moore, i now turn it over to senator cortez masto for questions. >> thank you, chief goodno to se you, thank you for being here. not that you had a choice but we appreciate treasuries race. >> have seen the considerable investment, right, the great american outdoors act, the bipartisan infrastructure act and inflation reduction act have enabled major initiatives like theed wild fire strategy at the same time the service has made concerted effort and hire new staff to implement the work born from these major investments. i know this let me give you an

example, the national forest which is mostly in nevada, i understand has the highest staffing levels that you've had in decades in 2022 and 2023 more employers were hired and but i'm curious to hear your outlook for the future and unless congress enacts extensions all of these authorities have an expiration date, yet, the need as you have been talking here today for all of these initiatives investments still remain, so how do you continue the pace of work, what do you want us to know with respect to where we should be focusing our attention and what we should be i think to. >> first, i want to just acknowledge to congress and this committee how much we appreciate, you know, what we've been able to do with the bill and funding. it's giving us a chance to

really hit the reset button in many ways and what you mentioned, we have been losing steadily a lot of employees for the last 20 years and so the amount of requests, the amount of work continues to two up and the number of employers are going down and so we have been really challenged on how we work with the publics going forward and while we created a lot of really great relationships with partners and through our community leaders, we really needed to beef up just the basic bear bone of the organization and so bill has allowed us to to that. now that we have beefed it up, our goal we lost 40% of nonfirework force and our ideal was to bring back half of that and then leverage the other half to partnerships. i'm happy to say that last year when we look at partner contributions to what we've been able to do, they contribute about $970 million worth of value to the work that we do because of that leveraging. we've also been able to bring

some employees back on board and now we need to assess where we are with the number of employees because when we look at the attrition rate, i would like to think that people are happy and not leaving as rapidly as they used to but there's a lot of practice going on there. we don't have the attrition rate that we normally have been having and we happened to do an assessment and see what kind of shifts do wee need to make in te organization and that's where we are from an organizational standpoint but it's been so refreshing to be able to bring newsh employees into the workfoe with new perspectives, new ideas and to help us move into that next generation of natural resource management on our public lands. >> well, thank you. i have to tell you, the men and women that work in the forest in nevada love their jobs and are committed and truly believe in the mission and the biggest challenge we have is they're overworked at times and there's an u understaffing issue and

it's nice to see that you're focused on -- on addressing those issues. i'm going to ask you and you may not be able to answer today but if you can get back to me, last summer storms associated with the tropical storm hillary swept through southern nevada damaging communities and infrastructure, among the areas damaged was the spring mountain national recreation area and it is managed by the forest service, the damage caused to this area by forced closures and important forta outdoor recreation while much of that has reopened, i understand that some sites may stay closed for the foreseeable future either because the site can't be restored as it was or not because enough money is available, can you -- you may not be able to now but at some point in time can you speak to that and address why -- just in general your efforts to restore that spring mountain area? >> i will get back with you on some specifics about that

specific area. i know generally when we have these types of thing happen, a lot of times and i'm not saying it happened there, a lot of times when thoset facilities we designed they probably put facilities in places that they probably should have never have been, not that this is the case, and so we were looking to the specifics of that to talk about why some facilities didn't come back but then howes do we mitige by that by d adding others in other locations. >> thank you, i look forward to that follow-up. thank you, mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator cortez masto. i want to take this opportunity to thank again our two witnesses, cortez masto you really had no choice but t we thank you for being here and this discussion, little bit of housekeeping, members of the will have until close of business tomorrow to submit additional questions for the record. and with that, this committee stands adjourn.

thank you very much. [inaudible conversations]

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