to make our the world. find to be better the of our final segment this morning has by comedians, scholars politician and common

folks. for 100 years. who is buried. congrats to this morning questions serves as a and painful to remember the civil war that and we have the selfless panel of luminaries doing might not seem. our panelists are recognized by any civil war enthusiast. but first of them why this man and their brief introduction please hold your enthusiasm. welcome to joe. all ready toian helen. he also serves as the thomas w smith distinguished research scholar and director of the initiative on politics and statesmanship and the james madison program at princeton university. he formerly was a professor of history right here at gettysburg college. allan is the only three time

winner of the lincoln prize for abraham lincoln redeemer. president lincoln's emancipation proclamation and gettysburg,nvasion. his more most recent work is a widely praised biography of robert. do you read about richard? george miller wrote in the washington post exactly what the nation needs as it reappears raises important historical d in challenging times with assumptions life that michelle krowllincoln forum. she is an author of several articles and books relating to civil war and the world war two memorial in washington. she holds am the university california, berkeley, and was once a research assistant for doris kearns goodwin. michelle, is the civil war and on specialist in the manuscript division of the library of the lincoln papers. dana shoaf is a longtime editor of civil war times and engineer of it's a multi-year partnership

with the lincoln forum. he recently left the magazine to become director of interpretation for the national medicine in frederick, maryland. he is early 19th century antiques and photography. although some family members say he's a hoarder of old hand tools. but no, no judging here. and he is a renowned battlefield guide. melissa winn is the marketing manager at american battlefield trust, the nonprofit organization dedicated to preserving america's hallowed battlegrounds. prior to that, she was the director photography for history net, a writerphotographer and collector of civil war photographs. she is a member of both the professional photographers association and the center for civil war photography. and finally, our own jonathan white serves as vicen of the lincoln forum. he is professor of american studies at christophersity.

and as if those two full time spare time, he has authored or edited some 16 books. we got a salty splash of his shipwrecked book yesterday at the lincoln forum is very proud that our vice chairman is this year's winner of the lincoln prize for his work a house built by slaves, african-american visitors to the lincoln white house. to the 2023 lincoln prize winner. ourn, who will serve as the moderator of this morning's distinguished panel and now recognize the panel. thank you,for taking the boston red sox hat ballot with back with you. hard year, but i certainly couldn't stand here and look at a re this time. i wanted to open this session by reading a short excerpt from the and this passage was written by my brilliant coeditor and friend matthew jordan. so these are his words.

the civil war did few things better or more efficiently than make final resting places between 1861 and 1865, an estimated. 750,000 soldiers succumbcar on battlefields, in cemeteries beneath obedient rows of military headstones and amid the crowded disorder of mass graves, some bodies were lost at sea. remains were scattered across the farms and behind earthworks, often planted where they fell. death is nothing here. the po walt whitman marveled as he surveyed the field hospitals around fredericksburg. in december 1862. as you wash your face, you see beforeou a stretcher of shapeless extended object with a shapeless, it is the corpse of some wounded or sick soldier. no one makes an adieu. all uselessdeath, burial and commemoration weregraves became sites of memory, both for those who lost loved ones and for succeeding

geur own. about six or seven years ago, i had the idea to invite civil war historians to write short personal, reflective essays about a gravesite that mattered to them. i wanted themflect on that place. why it mattered to the those who losts us about the civil war generation and what it can still tell us in our own time. we didn't want. we didn't want to collect a series of essays just about headstones and so instead,tors found a diverse array of places that captured a broad and new history of the civilplacesi' photographs that they took. glen le fantasy wrote about william oates, who lost his brother at gettysburg on the second day of the battle. and he spent 40 years looking for his brother, where his brother's remains rested. he cent's es the page proofs thisos has a very humble heads b life as albert cashier as a soldier and veteran who has two headstones in illinois and a holloway who

knows more about the uss ofgr when the turret was recovered, and then years later, they received a formal burial at arlington national cemetery. michael vaughan berg a grave and the story of 20 black soldiers who drowned after a careless accident by a white sailor and their grave became the waters of a river near charleston. doug edgerton wrote about the beaches t discovered since that remains were moved to buford national cemeteryity of georgia press chose taken massachusetts. that's men who fell in that battle. and it is very possible that robert gould shaw is buried under one of these namelesstones. michael gray wrote about a train wreck in northeastern pennsylvania that led to hundreds of confederate p.o.w.s dying and being thrown in a mass ditch along the delaware river. melody andrews reflects on the meaning of theedd schantz has a powerful essay about lincoln murder and two

of our writers, caroline janeen, hillary green, wrote about the slave cemeteries and jennifer murray wrote about a horse animal. history is becoming very popular. and old baldy general meade's horse was died after the war and was buried and his comrade meade's groun to philadelphia and take this picture at the art museum. you can go visit old baldy today. and of course, if we want to know who's buried in grant's tomb and if you don't know we're not going to tell you. we had todecided to look at grant in a slightly different way through the lens of richard greener, an african-american college professor who was a fundraiser for grant's tomb. and in fact, not only e profthis is actually just a sample of the many stories that come out in this book. where were historians reflect in and so i'm going to start with michelle because she the lincoln stories in the book and i'll turn it over.

i've asked each so, michelle so my seamstress modest confidante of mary of mary lincoln. but she was bornved in virginia in 1818. she sf erfreedom and that of hn the 1850s, after she s had ended up in saint louis. and that and then she came to washington, d.c., and got in with the lincoln administration and was an int lincoln white house after lincoln's death. she was involved in the old clothes scandal with mary lincoln and in 1868, she wrote a book called behind the scenes as a way of telling her story, but also trying to vindicate mary since she was involved with this, this woman so closely, she needed to show that she was upright in her own activities as well. the problem is, is that she then gave some letters to her editor that were included in the book, and they were very personal about the lincolns. and she essentially became persona non grata with most lincoln people. and most of us now know her of that lincoln story. so my connection with this and

what i wrote about in the essay is when i was an undergraduate, i wrote a senior seminar paper on elizabeth keckley and i kind of this is terrible, but i kind of promised myself, like, if i got an a on this paper, i will go to her grave in washington, d.c. because i got an a, but we never doubted. now, sometimes you do have to doubt, but but the problem was as i had access to johnny washington's they knew lincoln which includes information about her her funer expenses. it has a photo of her tombstone and you know, it describes where it is and that she'll be there forever. it's the bible verse that she had on it. knew it was that at harmony cemetery, which had been the pr african-american seminary cemetery in washington whenheand but i knew it was in washington d.c. so i when ifulfill my pledge, when i basically moved to washington to work on my dissertation, i looked for harmony cemetery and it was i kept se land over maryland or another somewhere else in maryland.

and i thought, that can't be right. and so i finally discovered that in the night as as harmony particularly is, as you know, segregation changed in washington. and and the cemetery had fallen onand wasn't being maintained in the 1950s. a developer offered to buy the property where it had been, station, by the way. and move the bodies to new harmony cemetery out in landover, maryland. was seeing these landover, maryland addresses. and as it turned out, about 1959 this started happening and there were over 30,000 graves that were being moved from this one cemetery to the new and the developer for the contract said that he would move the bodies. but as it turned out, there was no there was no clause about moving the tombstones. so when i finally got out to new harmony cemetery and i started looking, i, i couldn't find her. and i went into the office and essentially it was explained well, there are no headstones in that section, so we can give you

the number and you can try to find it yourself. so i had flowers with me and i wanted toand there was nowhere to leave them because i didn't know where she was. so when john offered this this story, i thought, okay, i want to do elizabeth keckley and talk about this and what ended up being a marvelous thing is and why i call it not so final resting places is first of all she's not where she she had been before. but what i was that you can parallel her tombstone in her g and reputation because around 1907, she was she was known she had only, you , for she had just died. she was still well known. but as time passed, people kind of started to forget about her other than as a witness te administration. and every few years, you know, maybe every 30 years, her book would be reprinted. but then starting in the civil ple started paying a little bit more attention to her. and then a resurgence with with lincoln's studies and interest in african american women. and she was talked about more and more and to the point that

now she is almost given equal equal status. and sometimes with mary lincoln. so books started coming out, mrs. lincoln and mrs. keckley or stage play at arena arena stage. there's now an elizabeth keckley reader with essays about her. so her her her status started to become more and more. and i was very pleased to see that tamika nunley had written an essay in which you never even see the words the lincolns, because it's all about keckley and her extraordinary life. the other thing that started happening is that the book was published under the name keckley. her name had been known for many years. but whensignature on historical documents at the national archives for her pension or we have one of her signatures in the herndon white papers, she spells it k e c k l y so an extra e had been add name for all of that time. so in addition heof her own identity, as apart fromve lincoln's as her name started to be spelled

correctly, she was regaining her identity that way. so about 2009, i think itere was an effort made to get her a tombstone at new harmony cemetery. and it was it was erected and now there's a photo of her on it. h so as a result of this book, i was finally prompted to go back.d when i was writing, i was able to take my flowers and i was ablefind her. and so i felt like a 24 year journey had finally been completed. thank you so much michelle. ellen, you're going to take us of story. there's out civil war. there's probably more than that. butre's two ways, at least in the most general sense. one is like, michelle, you know person. and then you have to track down where the burial is. sometimes you go out of the other way. sometimes you trip across a burial almost literally. and then you reconstruct the story behind.

i've had that experience near we live in in payola, which is the western suburbs of philadelphia and the churchyard at old st david's, which is a hat was founded in 1715. so it has a pretty substantial graveyard. on one occasion, as historians will hear the kind of people who do this sort of thing, we wander aroundand take notes. one occasion i almost literally bumped into a monument and i began reading it because i'd never really paid a whole lot of attention to it before. but it was a monument. and as it turned out w, it a young man, 20 years old, went everything about him, suddenly i realizel war casualty. young man, 72nd pennsylvania. oh, wait i know what that is. that's the philadelphia bottom. killed around cheatham september 17, 1862.

and i thought, i know exactly where his casualties. i did a i found a photograph of him. he was the son of thest station grew up within usually distance of where i live. and suddenly, at that moment nse of neighborliness that you didn't realize you had before. now, in that same churchyard, and on another occasion, i noticed in the grass almost level with the ground, there was a small marker. well curious, they killed the cat and will probably kill me at one point, curiosity took hold of me and i all fours and brushed the grass and all away. and i tried to decipher what this was, and it took some difficulty. and finally, after piecing it all together, i realized what it was saying was this moses malone, 45th u.s. city.

i had no idea who moses malone was, but the national archives did. had his service records. he had enlisted in the 45th uscg from lancaster pennsylvania. he was o participate at lincoln's second inauguration on march fourth, 1865. we know the photlincoln standing on the east portico of the capitollittle table and the glass of water. and he's reading the second also photographs which have come more recently to light on the last 20 years from the same camera perch, looking around at the audience of this enormous crowd of people and in the front rank of it is a rank of soldiers. they are black soldiers. they are the 45th united states colored troops. moses malone, as they are. yes. get surprised by what you find. that wasn't the case with robert

kelly. robert kellyé$ had never been in particularly tip top health. he had always suffered from even before the beginning of a civil war from heart trouble. it. he suffered at least two major heart attacks during the war. after the war, he becomes president of washington college in the upper shenand lexington, virginia. people have often scratch their heads, wondering why he became president of this little college, which was on the verge extinction. most of its students had gone off to the war. most of its endowment had gone off to the war too, and wasn't coming back. i think in large measure he took the job when it was offered to him because it got him as far away fromashington, d.c. as he could get without violating the terms of his parole. remember, byhat point, he was under indictment for treason. so he becomesnt. he turns out to be a remarkably

ul college president. this man knew how to shake the apples out of the tree. he brings in more than a quarter million money raises the student body from a dozen when he becomes president to over 400. i mean, that was that was a time in which that s a biudent population than yale or the university of and by 1870, his heart trouble has become so serious that he can hardly walk from the president's house, which is an engineer. he had design, and he can hardly walk from the president's house to his office in the basement of the college chapel without having to stopnd catch his breath. and finally,r of 1870, his heart fails again this time in very serious terms. his heart fails because, first of all, he suffers a stroke. the he would probably have recovered from the stroke, but his heart couldn't take the strain.

and so he dies. on the 12th of october, 1870. at that a letter home saying, i've never seen a mama decline as seriously and as rapidly as i've seen president leaves decline. that meant thathere were a lot of people who were already giving thought to what, a funeral and a burial like. so that after lee dies on the 12th of october, immediately the machinery is inrand funeral. there is a viewing of the body in the college great ceremony there provided presided over by his former chief of artillery, william nelson pendleton. is buried in the basement of the college chapel. buthere. it's a good thing it didn't stop there, too, because almost in a almost in a final indignity they get the on the inscription of the burial they had that theyth date off by a week. but the college trustees do two

things. one is they immediately move to ange the name of the institution to washington and leed the next thing they do is begin planning a substantial addition to chapel as a burial place, a grand burial for lee, the sculpto been contracted to make a sculpture of lee before lee's death, is now taken on board to create a kind of memorial of recu created, and this recumbent valentine sculpture of lee is installed. why is the college taking all thisbecause it knows profit when it sees it. the college is thinking two things. one is this will continue to act students. students who in some cases might have been of age to serve in the confederate army. by the end of the war, the confederates we digging down fairly deep in the age deciles. but if the't actually serve in the army, they could always be part of general lee's

college. so we will put lee out in front because that will help us to recruit students, but also it will help us as a tourist attraction for lexington virginia. and the idea is going to be that lexington is going to become a source of pilgrimage for visitors from all over the country who will, of course, not unlike the town we're will will be the source of a great revenue stream. and that does not happen. and it doesn't happen because two years after lee's death jubal early comes to speak in and jubal early proceeds to tell us whyhe mos monument to robert ely should be erected in richmond virginia. so lecturing john gets the memorial. it gets it's reconstruction of the chapel, but it does not get the tourists. it does, however, have this figure of the recumbent lee on display, then for many, many years until 2017.

right. to come back to that. thank you. we'll come back to that in the second round of questions. i just got squelch all. you're just leaving. isn't there an adage at historical conferences you'd ever want to follow babies, dogs or the rich voice of l'engle's? so yeah. such lot. such as my lot. well, the person i'm going to i investigated is someone you've never heard of. not a recognizable figure like elizabeth keckley, or certainly like robert e led no belong to a recognizable regiment as some of the folks that allen mentioned in 2018. because i do have a very small collection of civil war items i was perusing online civil war dealers and there was an online horse military store, milit antiques, and i was scanning what he had for sale, and i was arrested by this

entry. documents discussed seeing an exchange between soldiers and civilians murder near adamstown, maryland. so they really weren't that expensive. there was an outline of what they contained and i purchased them and what i received were very neat, handwritten testimonials or affidavits from four men, andto give you too many names but i'm going to read these names to you. and these four men were named george and charles brady. they were brothers, crown and curtis wheeler. they were all civilians that lived in frederick county, maryland, which is where i live right now iner adamstown. and it's just 20 minutes south of where i l another person involved named samuel calvin lamar, but there was no testimonial from him. miraculously nearly a year later, that same dealer emailed said, there's another one of those testimonials for sale at an auction house by a man

named charles b davis. and i purchase that. and charles b davis was a soldier. he was a member of the first new hampshire three months infantry regiment. and i was very happy becau side of this as well. these civilian accounts and what these affidavits of it's discussed was an interaction that took place on a warm july 1861 afternoon between five and six the late afternoon, the civilians i mentioned were on ahandcart and they were leaving the main line of the baltimore ohio railroad near a town called point of rocks. and if you've driven across route 15 on the bridge, that's essentially where point iraq is located. they were hand pumping their wms town because a spur that they were on ran through adams town. and in the frederick maryland. and these men were all from the adams town area. so they're pumping their way along. they were in pointed ros. out and

they encounter a detached moment of these first new hampshire soldiers walking southward on the same spur, all bedecked in their early war uniformsray swallowtail coats trimmed in red, gray capiz copies trimmed in red. the soldiers stopped the handcart and demanded that the civilians get off and let them take it so they could use it to get back to their camp and one common thread that comes out in all these testimonials is that both parties have been drinking somewhat heavily. i won't read you extensive quotes, but this is the tenor of what you read in these these testimonials from various accounts. we had done a good deal of drinking. i ha had three times of whiskey and two of beer in point a rocks. charles davis, the soldier says, we had all been drinking too.

you get a sense alcohol is helping to fuel this incident. one of the soldiers becomes particularly aggressive. a man named samuel webster. he's a sergeant in the first new hampshire. lsdemands all the civilians get off thell comply except to samuel calvin remain on the handcart. webster fires his pistol in the nd near one of the civilians that had gotten off the hat point, samuel calvin. samuel calvin lamar says --. you don't scare me. webster pulled up his pistol shot lamar in the head, and he fell down on the ground. their friend had just been shot dead in front of them,hey pleaded with the soldiers to let them use a hand to take his body to the regimenta point arrives at their camp.

webster said. let the son of a -- die. i'm not sure of the exact same exact process that followed, but webster is arrested and he will be pced in jail in frederick county and a local diarist jacob engelbrecht, mentions the shooting and the fact that he's imprisoned. he will be acquitted of mu 1861, which is not surprising because frederick is a very area. the officer that had thesed william f greely. and you n just imagine this young officer very early in the war trying to do his bests terriblencident. i had these documents and i, i thoughtlamar must be buried somewhere in the county. i would hope he would be buried somewhere in the county. could i find his grave looked at some our archivesi was i found a lead that he might be buried in a small village called brooksville, which some of you

may know. there's a cemetery there. i went there. i didn't i couldn't find it. and then my wife former director of the historical society of frede remember a book, an old book, 18th century graveyards of frederick county. we got found the book as being buried in the ortho thomas cemetery near point of rocks. so on a beau sunlit october day, brilliant blueeaon the trees myself, heidi andth working on civil war times at the time, i went there to try to find his gra down main road and eventually i said, i think maybe down this gravel road. and we went down that gravel road. and as we did, we w surrounded by soybean fields, but we could see there was a knot of trees, just a knot of trees down this gravel road. and as we got closer and looked do, we could see some gravestones. so i parked my truck, we got out and we walked out of the brilliant sunshine into darkness, literally this overgrown cemetery, trees

unlight from reaching the ground. we didn't say much. wewatch where we step brambles, sunken graves, feet deep fallen headstones. so i picked one up 18th century. iher one of the 18th century founders of the area. ortho thomas was a earlylain that area and it had been a family plot and is in it had been expanded for use by the larger c there but we couldn't find lamar's grave and we were about to leave. and heidi noticed a graitself at the edge of the cemetery and we walked over in this grave is inscribed, lived sun, as so many of them werend the d 21st, 1861. this incident occurred the same day as the first battle of bull run dana, can i stop you there and use that to transition to back you to ask about is a tough panel that we're goin w the

parking. i now have something inl and i thank you for that. i'll come back to you. i swear. so i'm goin transition to melissa, who was there on that day. yes. note to self. be brief. yes. i feel really fortunate because i was asked by jonathan to take ographs of many of those for these resting placesd. so i'm just going to show you a couple of the places bec so i really feel like i got a really good glimpse ofwhat a different resting place might be. you know, what thi i trying to show is that these final resting places are buried. and that's the story of the war that this are all very different. stop. she's been is this is actually another photograph where seven calvin lamar is buried. a's very overgrown. you can see now you can go ahead. so one of the first places that i was went to take photographs vive pennsylvania, shot twice, died at gettysburg. his friends buried him=n and john wolcott farm near this rock, and

they marked the rock with his initials dea. and that allows for them to send homeo where he is buried. and his father sends some men out to gettysburg to bring his body back home and he is then reinteed in washington cemetery in pennsylvania. is is the essay in the made first headstone and gettysburg marking it that way it's an incredible story and then a very different one. the next one is johngster general for the united states army. he h also sort of a controversial death between he gets in sort of a skirmish or between engagement between of himself and some maybeconfederates, soldiers, maybe bushwhackers. the stories vary as to what happened with him, but of course, it's devastated. into montgomer miggs, his first burial site is near rock creek park in washington, d.c. and he is then reinterred. and go to the next one. his second burial site mfar front lawn of robert kelly.

you know, if if if i have to suffer losing my son, you're losing your home. and here's my son at your doorstep and his the monument on top of his cenotaph is very emotional. it's it's it's moving. and this is it. a depiction of his death. it's got his gunoere there and his body that was laying there dead. the cape that he is wearing in this depiction is a gift that montgomery miggs gave to him a brief ofis occurred. so it's a veryribut also, again, at the front doorstep of robert kelly. it's a very different gravestone. place. and also at the same cemetery is williamplifn, who he brings the president brings him to from springfield. he has, you know some controversy in the white house himself. and lincoln really cares for his servant quite a bit and gets him a placement at the treasury, but

he brings him to some of his engagementsenith him still. and they go to gettysburg to come tohe speech. and shortly after that, william johnson lincoln pays off his house debt. he his his burial. this iscemetery. it is most likely his,utand it speaks in the essay about this could be and it could not be. it is a mystery. and why? because his story is vastly many of the people that are buried at arlington cemetery. the next one is john wilkes booth. and this one was really sc o headstone. and i think we can all imagine why he's a shame to his family. but his burial hultiple pieces as well. he's originally theovernment doesn't want to give anybody a place for his body to be a martyr. you they don't want an entirely new unites to come and worship over body so they make kind of a show of tossing him into the bury him at washington arsenal.

and then he's te ayears later, the booth family is trying to get his remains to bury him somehow and, you know ize the ball, or at least in the family plot. he's buried here in greenmount ut heh here, you for one of his family members. and peopleventure into the graveyard to pay tribute to booth. many of them put a penny on it. and of course, that's a very common practice. but as the essay sort of leaves it there, usually always left with lincoln's head face up. he gets the last and then the next and this is a beautiful cemetery. even the here. this is oak hill cemetery in georgetown. very notable. people are buried here and is the story of jamie stanton who is the son ofat which was likely to early and he's sickly aged eight months. it's very traumatic for this family. the next one shows, again, this cemetery three is t

catherine graham is buried there. notable because lincoln son was there, held in the vault often. and jamie is buried there as well. so i to see lots of different resting places and i find why so fortunate for having to get that full piece of this. the thing i really noted among all of the stories that people have beenbout and when i was sort of putting my notes together, was how many of these places? almost all of the stories i told involve a moving of the body, you know, in this sort of rewrite of their final resting place and sort of the of the past is not dead. it's not even past. so it was very interesting for me so we're going to do a speed round where i'm going to ask two questions and give them a minute or so to answer. i'm just going to ask mi very quickly and then we'll open it up to q&a. we will go to so that way you'll have time for some questions to michelle. you open the essay by talking about elizabeth coakley's mother. can you just very quickly telltohy it matters so much to elizabeth's story in

behind the scenes, elizabeth keckley mentions thabought her freedom and her sons and they moved to washington she with. her own mother, who remained with the garlandamily in sai and that she when she went back, she tried to find her mother's final resting place. and there was no headstone and she couldndo it. and so essentially, i won't even try to get the quote but it was essentially, you know, the pangs of your heart when you try to pay your respects to a loved one and you don't know where theyand i of course, i had read that many times in reading her after tried to visit elizabethshe's not a an intimate relative oromething. but i had this connection to her and then i reread behind the scenes and thought, oh goodness, the same thing happened to her. so it was just very the same thing had happened. but at least in her case, she's now she's now been found. facebook book live from theu just very quickly talk about what changed after that is sure.

you weren't holding this somewhat awkwardly, pull these out. so to me, lamar unk casualty. the civil war, he's not on any casualty list or casualty roster. and that juxtaposition with the first bull run really bears that out. but he' a casualty of the war as anyone else that fought orrm. and when i went back, i've gone back several times and ierate flags on his grave. and there in picture as well that you saw on the screen and i removed them because he wasn't a confederateoldier, he was a civilian. and i think in some way these flags justify, his death on the he was the victim of a drunken interact session and we don't know what his allegiance really was. several of thethe pushcart of his do go and enlist in a large whites 35th battalion in virginia cavalry. they cross the river into

virginia and they fightederacy. but we don't know if he'd have done just. it's interesting, though, that somebody is paying attention and, going back and finding . and the last time i went back, someone taped a notice on there asking any lamar descendants to reach out to them in these places still have great e in our society today. and so with that, i want to thank our up to questions. please go to the microphone so that the you. we've got about 10 minutes, so please keep the questions concd we will strive to keep our answers concise. go ahead. so comment. no question, john chamberlain, still no relation. when i was growing up, i had a tendency to anna age the pronunciation of words i didn't know, w solely. relegated to the discussion of cemetery, as i'm sure you're familiar with, a wonderful book by the former harvard president. it's called this republic of

suffering americans in the civil war. for those of you are not ar with it, i commend it to you. thank you. eric, overgó e of the towns very near us happens to be where myfe is buried. and i'll be on her stone as well. it's called wyoming and in that cemetery theree confederate soldier, so he's kind of in there is the only confederate we have. and the story is that he was a war and it was a prison camp up. and upstate new york. and they were on their way there when he passed and they buried hi't have his name with me because i didn't know this discussion was going to come up. i have it back home. so i just wanted to mention that because if anybody ever hears about him, they can verify throughe his name and where his where's his headstone is with his gra the p.o.w.s who were in the train crash, survived andfled and a few of them were found, died later and they were buried secretly. and then in decades later, the

nt tried to find where they were and the families concealed where the burial sites are. re are confederate p.o.w.s buried throughout northeastern and upstate new york as a result of that crash. let me go over here. thank you. could i hear alan'sn on. yes, i was hoping someone would jubal early declaring that i was actually almost at the end anyway but oh 2017 2017 comes and suddenly the whole environ at around robert kelly changes and as a result there was tremendous movement on the part of the faculty to remove the lead name from washington. the university. earlierat adorned the aps of the movement now to creating aee which the valentine recumbent statue will no longer be visible. even the marker for the remains of traveler at the front door of the chapel house has been relocated. whether this will move towards a

call for re burials, the movement of not only lee, but all the members of his family from the chapel seen. some people said, well, that that's really going to be a bridge too far. and i don't really think that's the case. i think wwait and see where the direction of things goes. so you might say that the story of the burial of robert ely is not quite over yet. ed. ed stares i was a party along with james oh hall and michael to block the disentanglement of john i think it was 1990 or 1990 when and we were successful in that which i now regret, because wherever i go, i'm told of course i know that booth escaped and made his way to goodheart india. solution to what this the rest is to dig them up experiment email thanks to go ahead in the book the essay does mention that when they

reinterred him in this cemetery's buried with three family members on he top of him. so and that is why this didn't go through because and to reassure him was also to reassert or to, you know, exhume him was exhume three other family members who there was no cae doin so. can i add a footnote very quickly to the discussion about john rogers maggs and his father, montgomery mags montgomery meggs was a very talented u.s. army engineer, fresh out of west poirst posting was to saint louis, missouri. hiscer named robert e lee. go ahead. hi, eileen bradner, arlington, the u.s. grant association as war two veteran fromo. life, he was extremelya child of the depression. but when he learned that he could have a place at a va cemetery, also with his wife,

and it would receivel care into can't tell you it was the joy of his life. and he said it's the last brebnerargain for for to get that free grave site and it is gorgeous i go there frequently i was just western reserve national c contrast to what we see here and. is, is anything being done on an organized scale to care or preserve these final resting places? i know my daughter was in americorps in west virginia. they do a lot of preservation work for cemeteries. so is anyone working on this on an organic? i think there are a lot of local efforts towards that sort of thing, but it really takes local community members and tions to find their resting places within their communities and keep them right

and well and to that point, i have talked to some people about trying to get an organization together to try to restore the cemetery or clean it up or do something along those lines. it hasn't borne fruit because of my job change and everything, i mean i'm still working at it. and my father and mother are also buried in a va cemetery. and your point is so well taken because that cemetery is like your father's. well maintained and we'll be so perpetually. and then you look at this ortho thomas, where the people that gave their lives to help build this country and it's just fallen into disrepair. last question to wendy. thank you. i always send this to michelle on memorial day, but there is an amazing tombstone on in lake forest, illinois where parents are buried and. it it is just amazing to think that lake forest this is lauded our people from ch made lake forest their summer homes and then they built these big

mansions and everything. but there's a tombstone on there icated by the people of lake forest to samuel dent, who was born a slave in tuscumbia, alabama, escaped in 1862 and joined and fought in the union army in 1870. he came to lake forests and established a popular livery business. his freedom papers were included in the cornerstone of first presbyterianrch, which is a really big church with stained glass windows by tiffany and everybody else. and when it was dedicated in 1887 and he even had his own funeral there, the citizens of lake forest subscribed and erected and dedicated thisrker, showing their esteem for a lovable christian, decitizen and faithful friend. so i think th't'amazing that, you know, they would have this. thyoank wendy. please thank our panel for. thank you. thank