good or that at least part of should be a public good. and so i think part of you now n thedemolition of public housings juste, not a human right. certainly in the broad sense, people don't imagine such and not necessarily something that we broadly is under not that it should be a good although that you know there are for that everywhere and and also globally like very on this on ts question in places outside of the states think we're out of time thank you all so "washingt"

continues. host: throughout black history month, we spend time focusing on several aspects of effort story. once again, we are joined by hannibal johnson, the author of "black wall street 100." hannib where was black wall street for viewers who may not know? guest: black wall street is the historic african-american community in tulsa, oklahoma, created during any eraf segregation around 1906. it is a neighborhood within the context of the city of tulsa. host: what happened in that neighborhood 103 years ago? est: the neighborsble black

entrepreneurship and commerce that existed within the community. a plethora of business establishments, a group of black als, doctors, lawyers, dentists, contests -- accountants occupied this blackberry in. it was separated from downtown tulsa by the tckmany people mayn host: how many people died andl wh srted the violence? guest: some experts believe between 100 and 300 people were killed in the massacre. hundreds more were injured. scores of homes and businesses were destroyed.

at least 1250 private homes were destroyed during the massacre. massacre are many and varied. it is important to understand the context. racial violence was occurring throughout the u.s. during this period. two years prior, james johnson referred to pop the summer as red summer. fred was a metaphorical reference to the blood that flowed in america's streets because of racial violence. the oth tut the u.s. during this period is lynching, a form of the mysticerrorism aimed primarily at african-americans. crucible that exists throughout the u.s. answer to the existence in tulsa. in tulsa, we have a prosperous black community, really sitting on land that was desired by

white leadership in the community for railroad purposes and other commercial ppose jeale community with respect to the black community. this was a period when the eddy eleg w super missy reigned supreme. to have these black people owning2g homes, driving cars, wearing beautiful clothes was unacceptable in the minds of some folks. the ku klux which had an enormous presence in the 20's. that was a factor. add to the mix the media and in particular one local media outlet, he did the afternoonnewa tribune. we have this tinderbox or powder cake in tulsacatalyst to ignitel

violce that occurred on may 31 and june 1 of 1921. host: the tulsa world earlier thisk history month, notable oklahomans and state history. you mentioned -- you are mentioned of one of the notable oklahomans for your work on researching and writing about the tulsa race massacre. they write■q role in bringing ao 100 people dead, 1000 buildings destroyed, this massacre that happened. how does something like that get to be ignored? guest: it is ignored as a deliberate decision on the part of people who are in power and occupy positions ofrivige.

, when the massacre occurred inl trajectory. the oil capital of the world. a lot , particularly in white also leadership wanted to minimize the tragedy of the massacre and varnishing the reputation of the city of tulsa. t reason, it was swept under the carpet. the black community, we have to think about ptsd. that is part of the reason in the black■s community the massae was not discussed and if it was discussed. the people ■n empowered to creae curricula for our■n■ decision no include that as part of■a.f what oklahomans learn about oklahoma history. ■■ú>

largely kept under wraps. host: when did we first get the term tulsa race massacre? nt referred to with those words? caller: wendy is -- gu this incident occurred, these were referred to as race riots. in the last 10 years or so, there is a movement within the li to take charge of nomenclature, to change the name to something many people believedbe a better descriptor of what happened. from riot to massacre. we can talk about what other terms for me personally, i telle that critical thinking around nomenclature is important to me. it is not what you settle on, it is that you

words have different connotatsomething is an importat element of claiming that event. host:■% a few of hannibal johnson's works, "black wall street 100." he is with us thisning until 10:00 a.m. eastern as part of this week's series focusing on black history month. you can join the conversation originally. if you're in the central or eastern time zone, it is 202-748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zone, it is 202-748-8001. perhaps we will get it also resident to call in during the segment. fletcher? viola fletcher is one of

living individuals who was alive at the time of the massacre in 1921. host: still alive today and has testified before congress about the tulsa race massacre. i want to play viewers a minute or so of her testimony back in may 2021 around the 100th anniversary of the tulsa race massacre. >> the city of tulsa and the chamber of commerce told us the massacre didn't happen, like we did not see it with our own eyeu see my brother. we lived this history and we it is our lives with us. we lost everything thathomes, or

newspapers, our theaterswhat res best for black people in america and for all of the people. no one cared about usor almost 100 years. we■v have been forgotten, washed away. history. for black america, for the white americans, and all america. host: that happened in may 2021. what does that testimony represent and what was ms. fletcher asking of congress that they? guest: it is importantle who lid three events like the tulsa race massacre. we now have the black wall

street history center which clindividuals who were alive during the period of the massacre. ave testimony to a state convened commission that meant from 17 to 2001 and their audio was recorded. use some of their testimony in presenting information about the massacre in the context of the museum. those voices are important to help us understand what transpired and how it affected real people in real time during those even. ■host: ms. fletcher announced last year she was going to release in memoirease a memoir r expenses with this topic. has she done that? have you read that? guest: i have not gotten a

chance to read it. i talked to mb of survivors back when there were more than survivors living. talking to them, what i discovered what they wanted more than anything else is to have their story■- told, to make sure peop understand what happens to them in part so that such an event never happens again. host: who was eventis? guest: he was one of tindividuat against the city and others on appeal right now. he died within the last two or three mth host: we are talking about because of race massacre. its memory, its impact not just in tulsa but in this country phone lines are split regionally

if you want to join the conversation. hannibal johnson, the author of severalup first active though a, e shout of the first step -- the first up out of boone, maryland. client disturb listing toy to the callers before -- i a lot of people don't understand the impact of the violence and bloodshed by black people in this country. to me, they don't want to understand. it is the antithesis happened to black people. i was talking tot my great-grandmother. i was six or seven years old years old now.

she said to me that she hite men dragged a blackan to the streets behind horse carts. i didn't understand horse carts. ■[ need to get people to understand that these older people who went through and saw all these tragic things, she also talked about black people being tarred and feathered and hung and burnedpeople don't ge't understand it. thespeop things. i believe mys getting me ready s reality that black people live even■ today. that is all i have to say.

people don't understand it and they don't understand that we need compe■#nsation. these people lost property, lives, lab hoodsods, generational wealth. me to the point what is america doing? host: buoy, maryland. guest: she makes a number of important points.one point is tr of the united states iss imperative. we cannot possibly understand why we have the racial dynamics we have today if we do not understand our history. another point is about the legacy of these horrific periods in our history, like the period

during which the massacre occurred in pool-side in 1921. crsociologists refer to that as their lowest point of racial relations in america because of lynchings and es riots and the jim crow era. the historical racial traumand embedded in the history of our country has to be acknowledged e are never to realize our full potential -- ever to realize our full potential. powerful potential can only be realized if we validate and leverage the shared humanity that exists in each and every one of us. host: you mentioned a people's/3 history, reminiscent of the .

what is a people's history? 'est: people's history is a recognition that there are multiple narratives and multiple dimensions of our history. history is not simply the do version of events. history involves a multiplicity of, a mosaic of different experiences. if we can un that and we the way we construct our curricula, we will be better off having known theries, the various strands of our history that contributes to thehost: in. caller: visit two days in a row

we have had great one of the things tha on was the black on black homicide taking anyone here as many lives as a civil rights. i'm curious as two things. do you think the condition of black communities, the highlight of black on black homicide, do think that is linked to events in tulsa? the story■i of pulse is a trage. nobody would say differently would the story should be told sei don't know how often in rect historat■event has repeated. my questions if you were to

write the history homicide,, lit about what he would highlight? -- tell me a little bit about whguest:■é i do a lot of work wh the police here and it also and i have over a decade, building a betternship between the police and the various constituent communities the police serve. i don'ms of black on black crime. specifically mentioning homideomicide usually is a involves one another, people who know one another. we can talk about hispanic crime

. ■■it is an■: approxima kind of occurrence. one of the things youa that eco- sociologists call internalized oppression. sometimes oppressed peopl pick up on the negative self-evaluation that comes in a racialized society. if you a a person who devalues himself or herself, it is in some ways easier to engage in violence against people who are like you. that is a psychological dynamic that happens in socie i which

ritualization is a huge factor. host: coming back tviola fletcher's testimony before congress and a forgotten tragedy, where there other forgotten massacres on the level of tulsa that happened in the u.s.? guest: there are a number of historical racial tragedies that occurred throughout the u.s. in 1919, in elaine, arkansas, a so-called right. longview, texas. any outbreak in baltimore, washington, d.c., memphis, more than-called race riots in america in 1919. y]most of our listeners -- i gus

most of our listeners are unaware of those occurrences. one of the■ callers referred toa horrificabout. these lynchings that occurred, this violence on african-americans, these were n hangings, sometimes burn mutilations, castration's. these were public spectacles children often witnessed this violence. ■k■let me tell you one of the lynchings that occurred in 1911. it was imaging of a woman named laura nelson and her son. they we lynched from a bridge, postcards were made of the

witnessed the lynching, including a young woody guthrie. thost: what did they do with postcards? guest: this serves the surfa-- , they were sent to frnds an couny celebrating the fact that the offender■ had done these events. host: tlanta, georgia. caller: mr. johnson, thank you for being withi have a questiont disappointed■ about the gentlemn from texas talking about black homicide. to the topic and that is not the topic. the topic is about tulsa.

there's also the rosewood incident for people who don't know about that.imagine postcare postcards at the tolson incident also. i want to know if there was an investigation done by the bureau of investigation before it became the fbi. i ask tt because i watched the movie "killers of the flower mood -- flower moon." that happensrol race rights. the bureau came out to investigate the killings of native americans. i wonder if there is an investigation done by the federal government and if there a cause for reparation,

this is a cause. thank you very much. you can actually see the few ditch -- the footage of triots e planes flying over dropping cans of gasoline. it was awful. on youtube, several documentaries you can i urge everybody to go out there and look at these see this is documented about what happened and it wasious. host: mr. johnson? guest: i don't know of any investigation by thethe most thn came years later with the convening of the oklahoma commission to study the tulsa race riot of 1921.

a statewide body was convened. it is available online at the website. /ç evaluation of all of the to the massacre ae massacre itself. the charge was akcommendations o reparations. the commission recommended five payments to survivors and there or more living survivors. payments to areas of survivors who could document property loss , the establishment of a scholarship fund benefiting descendants of those who suffered during the massacre. economic development incentives for redevelopment in the black community and some substantial

monument or memorial. those are the types that were recommended by the statewide commission. what came of those five recommendations? there were never any tax payments me. there was these devilish bit of a scholarship fund. -- the establishment of a scholarship fund.

history surrounding thehost: nos howard. caller: good morning. appreciate the truth of what is happening in america back then now. z scripture in the in the bible.ot going to deat you can go to oppose it chapter four, verse six. there is a gentleman who said black on black cnot going to divert from it. my black broer i know there's no black mini factor■t -- it can only lead to one person. this is my question. i know donald went to tulsa a few years back.

it brought more recognition to the topic of what isapyou know . they call it a right, but it was an insurrection. even in tulsa it was an insurrection, a coup to take over that government to establish their own government. one gentleman said is th histor. maybe that might answer his question. e same way. host: host: i will let you jump in. guest: massacre is that we know law enforcement deme of the white men in the mob that invaded and

destroyed lee greenwood community. that official sanction of the violence really resonates given what you said about insurrection on january 6. there is that one small parallel. host:a, oklahoma. this is mark. caller: good to talk to you. ■ethis is mark cunningham. i was born in the year of love, 1969 in tulsa, wenthroughigh school, led by the trail of tears, had an indian history teacher teach me this. memorial high school at the time was■ñ■m elite, like rich kids.

even though i wasn't rich, i was in that group. it is a different place now. winning state championships in basketball every season. it is a beautiful thing. most people in tulsa are not racist. we are all some sort of spade. where the difference is the love. more we connect with each other, the better off we are. i feel our media makeslook what. we have people wanting to bring we are treating them like --ur e

country is treating them like secondary people because they don't have this badge. would like to demonize them and say they are rapists and murderers and that they bringovr pr of 1000. want to go to is the history of what happened. i read a little bit about it, i've been to greenwood. pastor keith, i don't know if you know him, at the church there where everybody went in the basement. i played poker with him. this is my question, what really happened? ■0i read about a guy named diamond, she shined shoes of ele e white people loved him.

girl. i amd nobody heard about him. host: we will let hannibal johnson jump in. guest: important to go back to the■w context for the violence in tulsa and remember what was america like in 1921? an awfully violent period , a difficult time to be lack. -- to be black. there were raciaci the rights, e lynching. the successful black community the u.s. where the prevailing idwe have jealousy and envy and all of those factors with

respect to the economic well-being of the black community. you ve a dgroup called the clana pular social group among the throughout the state of oklahoma. and you have a publishing articles that are incendiary and inflammatory and stoking the flames of racial discord. because of these factors, you have a combustible mix. you need something on the 289 this -- to ignite this mix and cause an explosion. á% something was the incident he referred to which iso prevent a black boy on an elevator. that is not the cause of the violence. it is a precipitator, but not the fundamental cause.

host: to stephen in memphis, tennessee. ■caller: my first concern is the gentleman that spoke from texas in regard to mass murder among black people. i want to say - somlaw passed ck farmers. they passed a law that what ha oklahoma defiled under the junction where the type of reversedzbi -- type of reimbursement? host: you're talking -- guest: you're talking broadly

about the concept of reparations which means to repair damage done. oing on even as we speak in this community about reparations. city council passed a resolution apologizing for the massacre and creating these conversations to follow up on the recommendations made by the stewide commission i referenced. had. table some recommendations from the community as to how we repair the damage from the losses that at further education and curriculum reform, the possibility of payment survivor, the possibility of economic targeting the black community how we repair what

was lost. i want to point outha believe ae massacre i 1921 which almost obliterated the b cstory. that was not the end of the story. the story is what i call the story ofit. many people valid it would not beoved, they would rebound and rebuild after the massacre, which stated. the national■@ -- national negro league had its conference here inulsa. the peak of the community is i'. it was integration and urban renewal that caused a second decline in the 1960's andies toe

bought up, caused the interstate toe plowed through the center of the successful black community. yes, reparations commands -- and amendments are something we how best we of the damage that s rocked fro massacre -- wrou■óght from the 1921 massacr. host:w more minutes with hannibal johnson, the author of■100." we head overthe energy secretar. thanks for waiting. caller: i appreciate the opportunity. i think it is great that you can brg information of history so tt

it -- the damages that have been done. ■are you familiar with dr. francis enter theories on racism in america -- and her threes on racism in america? lh)her view is that it stems fry that the dna of black people isn complexion and that plays a major role ini am also a believn the fact that racism in america has grownviolence. people sometimes look forpersonr

than for the nature of psychology and human species. when you put all of that together, i think the dimensions of helping america become better it is issue dealt into racism.ogy and sociology o host: let m#ge giveannilchance . guest: i agree with your last statement, understanding psychology and psychology -- and grace is a social construct -- is a -- is a social construct which is to say that race is a humanion. there is more biological differences within races as between racrace is something wed

we have to understand as best we can how, who, why, etc. around that creation. fundamental for me is the imperative thagwe recognize the shared humanity of other people. if we did that, we would not have these race riots or cewe wt intercultural relations that we have today. recognizing these notions of what we share is humanity and validating that humanity between and among people andmo people is critical to our human re: rockville, maryland. good morning. caller: my mom is from tulsa.

she still has a large number of ■lsiblings that live in tulsa. my question to you, i have been to the black wall street memorial. i have seen the plaquessidewalks were in 2012 -- were in 1921. what are the percentages of black businesses now want black wall street? he mentioned the fairway. i remember visiting my andparents as a little girl aney move because a freeway was going through there. my question is, what is the ? guest: black wall street is a really integrated diverse

community that includes commercial spaces and residences. ■i don't know the exact percentage of black businesses but there are several. i am sitting as we speak on black wall street on the corner of greenwood and archer. the museum is here now and there's a beautiful bookstore in the community with art in the committe staurant so there are a number of black-owned businesses. i don'tagain, it's not just a commercial district these days. it's commerce, it's residences, religious, educational. oklahoma state university langston university is in the community. really diverse community that has changed over time. there is a black presence but most of the land is not owned by

folk as it was in the very beginning, that began in 1906. host: hannibal johnson is the author of the book. appreciate you joining us this morning as part of our series this week■i■o smoking.

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