we broadly is under the logic is not that it should be are certainly people pushing for that everywhere and and also globally like very different perspectives on this on isthe 'f time thank much. " continues. host:ghout black history month, we spend time focusing od

several aspects of effort written history. once again, we■d by hannibal johnson, the author of street 100." hannibal johnson, what and where was black wall street for views black wall street is the historic african-american community in tulsa, oklahomaseg. it i neighborhood within the context of the city of tulsa. what happened in that neor ago? guest: the neighbors as black wall street because of the incredible black that existed within the community. a plethora of business establishments, a group of black professionals, doctors, lawyers, dentists, contests --

accountants occupied this blackber■.ry in tulsa. it was sarcks. many people may be= that occurrn the 1921 tulsa race massacre when the black community was almost obliterated in ts mofr of racialized violence. host: how many people died and what started the violence? guest: some experts believe between 100 and 300 peopleessac. hundreds more were injured. scores of homes and businesses were destroyed. at least 1250 private■f homes we destroyed during the massacre. the causes of the massacre are many and varied.

jáit is important to understand the context. ■4racial violence was occurring throughout the u.s. during this period. tqtwo years prior, james johnson referred to pop the summer as red summer. fred was a metaphorical reference to the blood that flowed in america's streets because of racial violence. the other thing happening throughout the u.s. during this period is lynching, a for terrod primarily at african-americans. crucible that exists ro u.s. answer to the existence in tulsa. in tulsa, we have a prosperous black community, really sitting on ld that was desired by white leadership in the community for railroad purpose d ses. we have jealousy of white

community with respect to the black community. was a period whenreigned supre. to have these black people owning homes, driving cars, wearing beautiful clothes was unacceptle in the minds of some folks. people are generally familiar with the ku klux klan which had an enormous presce that was a factor. media and in particular one local media outlet, he did the afternoon newspaper called the tulsa tribune. we have this tinderbox or powder cake in tulsa needing only some catalyst to ignite the racial violence that occurred on may 31 an the tulsa world earlier this month, especially for john

black historyistory. you mentioned one of the notable oklahomans for your workn researching and writing about the tulsa race massacre. they write your work has played a role in bringing attention to a subject long ignored over 100 people dead, 1000 buildings destroyed, this massacre that happened. how does something like that get to be ignored? guest: it is ignored as a deberate dio the part of people who aren occupy posit. tulsa, when the massacre 1921 was on an upward trajectory. it became known as the oil capital of the world. a lot of folks in tulsa,

particted to minimize the tragedy of the massacre and varnishing the reputation of the city of tulsa. r that reason, it was swept under the carpet. in the black community, we have to think about ptsd. that is part of the reason in the black community the massacre was not discuss discussed. empowered to create curricula for our schools made the deliberate decision not to include that as part of what oklahomans learn about oklahoma history. for decades, this history was largely kept under wraps. host: when did we first get the term tulsa race massacre?

when was that incident referred to with those words? caller: w when this incident occurred, these were referred to as race riots. ears or so, there is a movement within the like community to take charge of nomenclature, to change the name to something many people wa.believed to be a better descriptor of what happened. from rt to massacre. we can talk abohat other terms might be used to describe this event. fo people that critical thinking around it is not what you settle on, it is twords have different connotations and naming something an important element of claiming that event. host: a few of hannibal

johnson's works, "black wall street 100." he is with us this morning until 10:00 a.m. eastern as part of week's series focusing on black history month. you can join the conversation originally. if you're in the central or eastern time zone, it is 202-748-8000. if you are in the mountain or pacific time zone, it is 202-748-8001. ■perhaps we will get it also resident to call iduring thewho? guest: viola fletcher is one of the living individuals who was alive at the time of the massacre in 1921. ho: still alive today and has testified before congress about

the tulsa race massacre. i want to play viewers a minute or so of heres in may 2021 around the 100th anniversary of the■e tulsa race massacre. >> the city of tulsa and the chamber of commerce told us the massacre didn't happen, like we did not see it with our own . you have me here right now, you see mywe lived this history ande cannot ignore it. it is our lives with us. we lost everything tha day, our homes, our churches, our newspapers, our theaters. what represented all of what was best for black peo■çplmerica and for all of the people.

no one cared about us for almost 100 years. we■z and our history have been forgotten, washed away. this congress must recognize us and our history. for black america, for the white americans, and all■9 that happey represent and what was ms. fletcher asking of congress that they? gues■■e■/ i to hear the voices of people who lived three events like the tulsa race massacre. we now have the black wall voices of many of the individuals who were alive during the period of the massacre. they gave testimony to a state convened commission that meant

from 1997 to 2001 and their audio was recorded. ■óqwe use some of their testimoy in presentingut the massacre in the context of the museum. important to help us understand what transpired and how it affected real people iduring those events. host: ms. fletcher announced last year she was going to release in memoirt's going to release a memoir on her expenses with this topic. has she done that? she has. host: have you read that? i have not gotten a chance to read it. i talked to a number of survivors back when there were moreha 100 survivors living. talking to them, what i

discovn#ered what they wanted me than anything else is to have their story, to make sure people understand what happens to them in part so that such an event never happens again. host: who was event ellis? guest: he was one of the three individuals who had a legal suit against the city and others on appeal right now. he died within the last two host because of race massacre. ■wits memory, its impact not jut in tulsa but in this country today. phone lines are split regionally if you want to join the on. hannibal johnson, the author of several subjects on this topic. up first acte though and, maryland. the shout of thfi step --

the first up out of boone, maryland. caller: client disturb listing today to the callers before -- i am disturbed to today listening to the college before. a lot of people don't understand olence and bloodshed by black people in this. to me, they don't want to understand. antithesisk people. i was talking to my mother yesterday about my great-grandmother. i was six or seven years old mea -- i am 53 years old now. she said to men dragged

a black man to the streets behind horse carts. i was six years old. i didn't understand horse carts. i need to get people to understand that these older people who went through and saw all these tragic things, she also talked black people being tarred and feathered and hung and. people don't get it, they don't understhese people went throughh tragic things. i believe my great-grandmother was getting me ready for this reality that black people live even that is all i have to say. it and they do'these people lost prope, lives, lab hoods -- livelihoods,

generational wealth. nóit angers me to the point of what is america doing? host: that is erica in buoyguesf one point is history, a people'y of the united states is imperative. we cannot possibly understand why we have the racial dynamics we have today if we do not understand our history. another point is about the legacy of these horrific periods in our history, like the period during which the massacre occurred in pool-side in 1921. sociologists refer to that as their lowest point of racial relations in america because of

ce riots and the jim crow.the hist traumr country has to be acknowledged and has to be addressed if we are never to realize our full potential -- ever to realize our full potential. powerful potential can only be realized if we validate and leverage the shared humanity exists in each and every one of us. host: you mentioned a people's history, reminiscent of the . it came out in 2009. what is a people's history? guest:story is a recognition that there are multiple narratives history.

's version of events. history involves a multiplicity of voices, a mosaic of different experiences. if we can understand that and we can make surthat approach is the way we construct our curricula, we will be better off having known thevarious strandsy that contributes tmio th whole. host: in texas, this is jim. caller: visit two days in a row we h guests. one of the things■khawoodson ree black on black taking

anyone here as many lives as a civil rights. i'm curious as two things. do you think the condition of blackes, the highlight of black on blackthat is linkeds in■ethe story of pulse is a tra. nobody would say differently would the story should be told so thesei don't know how often t event has repeated. my question if you were to write the history -- black on black homicideíj,, little bit about what he would highlight?l!

-- tell me a little ■9out what you would highlight? guest:■ i do a lot of work with the police here and it also and i have over a decade, building a be relationship between the police andtituent communities te police serve. on black crime. specifically mentioning homicides, homicide usually is a crime that involves■t people in close proximity to one another, people who know one another. we can talk■l about hispanic cre it is an approximate kind of occurrence.

one of the things you raise is this idea that ecologists -- sociologists call sometimes oppressed people pick up on theive self-evaluation that comes in a racialized society. who devalues herself, it is in some ways easi tgainst people we like you. that psychological dynamic that happens in which ritualization is a huge factor. host:ck to viola fletcher's testimony before

congress and a forgotten tragedy, where there other forgotten massacres on tulsa the u.s.? guest: there are a number of historical racial tragedies that occurred throughout the u.s. in 1919, in arkansas, a so-called right. loany outbreak in baltimore, washington, memphis, more thanriots in america in 1919. most of our listeners -- i guess most of our listeners are unaware of those occurrences. callers referred to a horrific lynching she was told about.

ese lynchings that occurred, this violence on african-americans,hese hangingss burnings, mutilations, castration's. ublic spectacles and children often witnessed this let me tell you one of the lynchings that occurreded here n 1911 it was imaging of a woman named laura nelson and her son. they bridge, postcards were made of the lynching, children witnessed the lynching, including a young woody guthrie. ñchost: what did they do with postcards?

guest: this serves the surface -- the purpose postcards serve, theycelebrating that the offender had done these events. host: perry in atlanta, mr. johu for being with us. i have a question to ask, but first i need to say that i'm disappointed about the gentleman from texas talking about black homicide. you usually tell people to stick to the topic and that is not the topic. e topic is about tulsa. there's also the rosewood incident for people who don't know about that.

imagine postcards, there were sthe tolson incident also. i want to know if there was an instone by the bureau of investigationme the fbi. i ask that because i watched the movie "killers of the flower mood -- flower■4 moon." the same time as the total race rights. ■8th to investigate the killings of native americans. i wonder if the ifederal governe was a cause for reparations, this is a cause. thank you very much. you can actually see the few ditchage of the

riots and you can see there were plans -- planes flying over dropping can of gasoline. it was awful. the footage is on youtube, several documentaries you can see. i urge everybody to go out there and look at these so you can see this is documented about what happened and it was atrocious. host: mr. johnson? i don't know of any in fbi. the most thorough investigation ca later with the convening of the oklahoma tulsa race riot of 1921. a statewide body wasit is availe website. that was a thorough evaluation

of all of situation leading up to the massacre and the massacre itself. the regard to reparations. the commission recommended five different types of reparations, payments to survivors and there were 100 or more living survivors. payments to areas of survivors who could document property loss , a scholarship fund benefiting descendants of those who suffered during the massacre. economic development incentives for redevelopment in tlacommunil monument orthose are the types e recommended by the statewide host: what came of those five commendations? guest: there were never antax

payments made. there was these devilish bit of a scholarship fund. -- the establishment of a scholarship fund. it was brought into in memory to and attributed to■ohe mt not lie descendants of the massacre. there was a body said to look ac development within the black wall streetwas not funded so nor came of that. the state did in fact invest a small about of money come around 1.5 to two in dollars in decree creation of a park that the massacre and survivors and the hior massacre. host: north calina, this is howard. caller: good morning. i appreciate the truth of what

is happeng in america back then and now. there is a scripture in the bible, i am notom the topic bute in the bible. you can go to oppose it chapter four, verse six. gentleman who said black on black crime -- i'm not going to divert from it. my black brothers and sisters are getting guns like candy. i know there's no black mini of -- it can only lead to one pthis is my question. ald went to tulsa a few years back. it brought more recognition to the topic of what is happening.

knowat same act was upon our country. right, but it was an insurrectio even in tulsa it was an insurrection, a to take over that government to establish their own government. one gentleman said is there any correlation of the history. maybe that might answer his question. it was done the same way. sahost: i will let you jump in. guest: one of the interesting things about the massacre is that we know law in the mob that invaded greenwod community. that official sanction of the given what you said about insurrection

on january 6. there is that one small parallel. host: to tulsa, oklahoma. thiss caller: good to talk to y. this is mark cunningham. i was born in the year of love, 1969 in tulsa, went through high school, led by the trail of tears, had an indian history teacher teach me this. t the time was, like rich kids. even though i wasn't rich, i was in that group. it is a different place now. xwinning state championships in

basketball everyit is a beautif. the integration is the best thing that has happened. most people in tulsa are not racist. we are all some sort of spade. where the difference is the love. the more we connect with each other, the better off we as hate each other. look what is going on right now. we have people wanting t their luck to this country. they want tosswant to be part ot we are treating them like --■íór country is treating them like secondary because they don't have this badge. would like to demonize them and say they are rapists and

murderers and that they bring over fentanyl which is true for probably one out of 1000. what i want to go to is the history of what happened. i read a little bit about it, i've been to greenwood. ■zpastor keith, i don't know if you know him, at the church there where everybody went in the basement. him. question, what really happened? i read about a guy namedr come everybody loved him. hepeople. the white people loved him. elevator kissing a girl. i am told they went off and goat married and nobody heard about him. host: we will let hannibal johnson jump in. guest: to go

back to the context for the violence in tulsa and remember what was america like in 1921itt , a difficult time to be lack. -- to be black. the rights, but the lynching. successful black community here in tulsa in a place and at the u.s.f white supremacy. we have jealound factors with respectthe black community. you have a domestic terrorist group called the clan which is a popular social group among the white that is growing

throughout the state of oklahoma. and you have a media publishing articles that are incen,qdiart d inflammatory and sto■cng t disc. because of these factors, you have a combustible mix. you need something on the 289 this -- to ignite this mix and cause an explosion. that something was the incident he referred to ich a way to prevent a black boy on an elevatorthat is not the cause oe violence. it is a precipitator, but not the fundamental cause. to stephen in memphis, íç caller:gentleman that spoke fros in regard to mass murder among

black people. "(i want to say■ -- was a law passed considers -- a law passed concerning black they passed a that what happened in oklahoma defiled under the junction where the type of reverse -- type of reimbursement? host: you're talking -- guest:+8 you're talking broadly about the concept of reparmo ree done. ere are competitions going on even as we speak in this community about reparations.2ñ

city council passed a resolution apologizing for the massacre and creating these conversations to follow up on the recommendations y the statewide commission i referenced. those conversations have been had. there is on the table some recommendations from the community as to how we repair the damage from the losses that that includes further education and curriculum reform, the possibility of payments to certain individual survivors, the possibility of economic investments targeting the black , a whole range of options as to how we repair what was li want to point outle belie massacre in 1921 which almost

obliterated the black community, that was the end of the story. that was not the end of the story. ■jthe real end of the story is what i call the story the indomitable human spirit. many people valid moved, they wd the national league -- national negro league had its conference in tulsa. the peakn the mid-1940's. it was integration and urban renewal that caused a second decline in the 1960's■ a 1970's, cost properties to be bought up, caused the through tr of the successful black community. yes, reparations and commands --

and amenents are something we are working to figure out and how can try to repair some of the damage that was rocked from the 1921 massacre -- ght from the 1921 massacre. host: just a few more minutes with hannibal johnson, the author ofwe head over to any evh the energy secretary so we try to get a few more door calls. this is philip. thanks for waiting. i appreciate the opportunity. i think it is great that you can bring out all of this information of history so that it -- the damages that have been done. are you familiar withcis enter m

in america -- and her threes on racism in america? her view is that it stems from that the dna of black p■eople is more dominant in terms of skin complexion and that plays a major role in racism. i am also aelieveria ina -- in the fact that racism in has grownviolence. people sometimes look for someone to beat down or be the person you can say i am better than for the nature of psychology and humanwhen you put , i think the dimensions is isso

psychology and sociology of racism. host: guest: i agree with your last statement, understanding psychology and psychology -ologs important. grace is a social construct -- is a -- is a social construct which is to say that racethere is more biological differences within races as between races. race is something we and we have to understand as best we can how, who, why, etc. around that creation. l for me is the imperative that we recognize the

shared humanity of other people. if we did that, we would not have these race riots or race massacres. we would not have lynchings, thes turbulent intercultural relations that we have today. recognizing these notions of what we share i humanity and validating that humanity between and among people and among people is critical to our human ons. host: rockville, maryland. morning. caller:■she still has a large nf siblings that live in tulsa. my question to you is, i have been to the black wall street memorial. ■j plaques in the

sidewalks where black businesses were in 2012r2 -- were in 1921. what are the percentages of black businesses now want black wall street? entioned the fairway. i remember visiting my girl anth move because a freeway was going through there. my question is, what is the entage of black-owned businesses on wall street today? guest: black wall street is a really integrated diverse community that includes commercial spaces and residences. i don't know the exact percentage of black businesses but there are several. ígi am sitting as we speak on black wall street on the corner of greenwood and archer.

the museum is here now and there's a beautiful bookstore in the commuty with arindixon's blt so there are a number of black-owned businesses. i don't know the percentage but again, it's not just a commercial district these days. it's commerce, it'ss, education. oklahoma sta uve largest space n the community today. langston is in the community. really diverse community that has changed over time. there is a black presence but most of the land is not owned black folk as it was in the very beginning, that began in 1906. host: hannibal johns■on is the

author of the book. ng us this morning as part of our series this