my name is jess and. i'm a bookseller at seminary co-op. as you might know, our bookstores were founded inme the country's and currently only not for is bookselling. this mission endeavor and booksellers as professional. the main ways you can support our stores is by buying a book. i think might know of one.

there will be time for audience questions at the end conversation. and should you have any? please raise your hand. bring that time. t,introduce our guests for today former baltimore assistant attorney general for the state of maryland and trial attorney for. racial equity and the criminal justice system. private law practice focused on civil and criminal litigatiowashington d.c., a leading voice in the discourse of and race. hinds often called on by media networks for commentary. please help meiv warm welcome toso i thought but i thought we could dogoing to do a brief reading just to kind of get you focused on what the book is about. and then i'll just engage in conversation because i'm a trial lawyer and we don't really do that much reading. read, we read for law, but don't doso that's what i thought we could do. so i reading, which i' from the.

as i'm going to start by reading from the introduction and then i'm just another part, but it'll be very pretty brief one and an isaac road late2 i sat in a vehicle driven by sam who came to the united states as an imm owns a car service company. d inonversation sam talked about how america is a where has the same opportunitie talked how he came to this country with few resources and now owns a fleet of vehicles. sam said that he believes that in the united states every regardless race, can dream and work make to turn os into a reality. i sam told his personal story success. i remain. it was eve and hardly a good time for a challen discussion. but i strongly another, i might have told sam how his experiences differ from those of many african americans.

i wish i couldold about my experiences as a former and the experience of my family neighbors and clients char crimes. lives were upended due to racially biased prosecutorial system. i would have explained to samhow design the power the prosecutor racial disparities against african-americans in theften overlooked in the conversation reform. the justice system is the pressing need to state offices. the most powerfuthe justice system. prosecutors control all aspects of a criminal case. very little happens in the criminal justice system without then every aspect of the decides whether to take a case before a grand jury indictment decides on a plea bargain offer, orther to go to trial or use another to end the case release an individual all before trial. whenprosecute the case to obtain the

conviction, recommends the length of a prison and in all post-trial conviction proceedings. prosecutors are front aspects of a criminal case and recommendation. the black children and charged and sentenced to prison. every day before they are old to drive. one out of every three black boys expect to be imprisoned in their compared to one in seven teen white no age for crime. a blaearly six times as likely to incarcerated as a white person. for people detained in jail pending a trial date, prosecutors disproportionate to. black people despite the us's system's presumption of innocence until proven guilty.

black people represent. 43% of the people in to held whilemake up only 13.4% of the us police arrest black people ten frequently than they arrest white people. when a national level police search the vehicles of black search white people's vehicles. despite the fact are more likely to have unregistered weapons or illegal drugs unknown black people who present with minimal to no threat to killed three times more often than whites. ev americans less likely than any race to resiste rarely do prosecutors chargepolice officers for killing unarmed black. ous sentences are imposed the death penalty. 44% of all people on death row since 1976 are black people. colorblind justice system in

amer coded. in 2022, decades after city, the university of maryland published, a r justice in prosecution in baltimore. it found tha whose population was 63% in 2017 &.88% of all baltimore circuit court cases involve black more than 80% of all defendants. the prosecutorial system in baltimore is no different than in york city. chicago,g/ miami and other cities and towns across the in cook county, illinois. a study conducted. from 2000 to 2018 showed that represented only 25% of the popul over percent of its 3 cases in 2018. the percentage of black defendants increase to 65% although the number of criminal view of the jail population

revealed that the incarceratio of black people is more than 17 s tidefendants. the aclu of florida cited similar racial disparities. in the miami dade area in a report that looked at 200,000s. from 2010 to 2015. the 52 pageorunprosecutors are more likely to offer defendants, while white defendants less attorneys or sals even though white commit more crimes. the purpose of tt for. understanding the history of racial system. describe how local nonfederal which 95% are white, drive these racial and exane how prosecutor system adverselyaffects african-americans by design. finally this book provides a

pathway for accomplishing transformation or change within the us carcesystem. the us prosecutorial system will e unless and until we reform the policies and procedures that run the state and local elected prosecutorial offices. we need to lead with compassion instead of co corruption. so i thought that pretty much give us an idea of what the about, but what i wanted to say is what i've read pretty much just numbers and numbers don't tell using. just how i wanted us to stop because behind all of those ehind all of the numbers are people. and so what we do, we tell stories. and so i've read, which just the initial chapter i tell actually the have been about that have been affected.

when i first thought of the idea of writing a book in, the it's because people generally ask how long did it take you to write the book? ht about writing a book, i convinced that i could not write a i'm busy, i have a trial practice every week. and what would i write? a book when i just could not imagine that. a book about my experiences. and so then 20, 20 came and 202all my questions becauseou pandemic. my office wasn't closed, but it doing anything that we did court wise was by remote and then when i was sitting home. watching tv one day after george murder, i reverend al sharpton resonated so much with me about the said part of his eulogy floyd is the history of every we be anything we want to be.

we could run corporations. we could do anything. we could have the dreams that stem my driver had and turn reality but you wouldn't get off before i wrote even one worde. i knew that that be the title of my book, g bause it just explained me everything that saw in the criminal justice system. think that people that are in the system, bad people and we just put the bad people away care of all of our problems. but the peopl're like and i, they're no what i started out with when the journey doing a lot of research because i have anecdotal information in but my inspira not. sharpton my inspiration for writing book who's but she taught me three things. she said and so i try provide the knowledge in the researched.

i have over 20 or 30 pages ofreferences that. i would like the people to dig deeper within those references. she also saidhat not only is knowledge is key my only had a ninth grade was the smartest person i knew because she never stopped . even when she retired, she never stopped learning. and she also had saying where she said never say. my brother and i, we could never say as kids, never happen. i mean she hated the use of the wordthere were limits. and so whatan don't that the system system. book how the can change. but myher never took the word never. and i that anyone that's about criminalshould not look at it as it could never everand the third thing that i learned from my mom, tt he and how i'm writing, how i wrote the book said you have to have hope. and we can't be society, in a country where we don't hope

in the criminal justice system. so those arekeaways from my mom before iprosecutor. i have my own story was involved or knew about from the criminaland one actually happened when i that time my family, my mother, my brother, we lived in a four room house, not forfour rooms. and it was kitchenr had his own bedroom. and then there was the bedroom, my mother and my father'sa living room with two chairs and a tv. and then this huge and i always to look out of the windowspace. and my mother didn't, you know, she would tell me, do not out the window and tell telling a five year old do not look out the window was the same as saying look out the window. and so why she didn't i did not know then, but why she didn't want me to look out of the the street from a bar panama and it's in west baltimore, which is where from

the same area of baltimore where in 2015, the fre gray undressed occurred. so she did out the window because there were shootings. myhe recalled one time that he saw a police officer shoot a black ay bullet to hit me. but reference with things. when we movedbaltimore was better than where we came from, but it still had issues and had drug issues. so i had friends that are still acquaintances that got with drug as substance became in the criminal theft that occurred because of the issues that serve you know, small stints in jail. so there was that. but the main thing that reallys my cousin edward, who i loved edward a me. and when he was 16, he got a fight with another boy edward

thought was himself and he stabbed the other so my was charged with manslaughter. at 16. laws vary from state state but at 16 he could have then tried died as a juvenile which would had a record. he probably might have been in a ju center. he was 21. if he was adjudicated to beuent. but instead a prosecutor chose to try him in a dock court and not the word returned. it's a legal word with him back to court. so my was had no other record he had no juvenile had trouble before and he wasn't old enough to that adult he served five years in a state prison with hardened criminals. and so by the time i got to the state's attorney's office as a prosecutor, i had in my mind set a 27 year old that i wanted to go there to help people. i wanted to help victims of

crime, but i also wanted to help those that were crime and as a to get trial experience. so i didn't have any lawyers in my family. so the only thing i saw was on tv and on tv you see lawyers go to court. so and so when a job came up there, that was the reason why i took it. but immediately almost after i got there, i realize that it was to be something that i'm going to help people. eople that lived in my neighborhood. i would tell them that, you know, people actually, what do you do? and i say, i'm lawyersay where? and i say, i'm across the queue at her without any hesitation, pe say, my you black people i living. like, i don't see it that way. after working at the prosecutor's office i actually came tohow people felt that way. the prosecutor's office the way to describe it and iibe it in the book, is really an assembly line.

you of like cars and i've never worked a automobileassembly line, but when you think about cars, you think about an assembly line. just know cars are going through an assembly, par get the finished product. the differences within anautomobile assembly line, there are quality controls to msure there are not any issues before it rolls the track andve that occu'll get the because something didn't go prosecutor's office, the assembly arrest people then they end up in prosecutor's office and then they just going straight down the they get to a conviction, some sort. there control that as a prosecutor, the look at is the c with. their previous record, if that's it. other reasons or any other things in the person's background.

if they are presented with it by as myself. now they don't look at that. crime the person is charged from that a determination isone for the rest of their lives, conceivably, because a conviction and probatjail time or anything, it's a record and what sopl think it doesn't work like the credits system er bureau kind of drop off after seven years if it if if the conviction of the crime which someone is charged with isot that can be expunged and. not everything can be by statute then it just stays on anywhere. so when what, i'm saying it's like an assembly line. when i started i was in misdemeanors even though i had some experience from prior job before, from working. they don't start you out. it's not as bad, they start you out ines, you work your way up to point, but i had never i had never practiced system.

so i didn't know anything. and i went to my supervisor and who i have in the tell me. i said, so what do i do? i have 30 cases. is my first i have 30 cases, which is what my docket meaning. those are the cases that areular judge when that day what do i do? and he literally give them an easy out. i'm thinking, what does that so really isn't a lot of ance you will hear from most pressing creditors. it's a sink or swim situation and those are the words that we use sink or swim. and of honor about just learning system as you kind of gohave really training. we had that said whatever the the month gun cases, we're going to b hard on gun cases and we don't do certain things n cases. so we had policies we didn't training. i still that one of my friends it was trying a jury trial and so i was tasked with sitting beside her whichshe was

going to be trying actually the case. it was aor case. so something nonviolent, something minor i'm sitting there next to her and she says to me, because the judge says, know stand up and give your opening statement. and she says to me, do i hav to an opening statement? and i said yeah, but i don't know what you have say because i only had one trialtasked with being person to sit next to do. so that's pretty much how it works in the in the system it's and we have such a large volume of cases and when are areas because i practice and defense in other are smaller that are not large cities but still there ar courtrooms are full of black black youths and there isn't any preparation time. i gene within the book when i said that per case from beginning to end which looking at the case findi "th calling the or not taking the case and talking to the defense attorney being generous we might those 20

minutes are going to determine rest of their life unless show up in the case actually getsiswhich has nothing to do with the work of a prosecutor. it's just that you couldn't pryour case. when i'm talking the state and local context that's where most of the cases a there are 13 million in m nonviolent every year that have th local officson, there's only. 79,000 cases that the federal system total every year. unlike with media portrays misdemeanor they all criminal cases. so never really hear about. that's not anything that would be in media're not going to hear about someone shoplifting or, yo urinating in the street prostitution. yes.

there is sting. prosecuting prostitution. you nev only really hear that percent that wrecks lives. so just pointinghe areas where there are issues within the system, one is with respect to and illinois is the first state that bail and the district of columbia it is also has not had a cashthe 1990s. i'm not sure other states don't because the district of columbia is really the model. been a cash bail system there the 1990s. like i said and no by way of studies by way of how it w increase because of the lack of a cash system. but here is where the cash bail is very problem that i have no in one instance there a person

whose family could $100, which is what would have been paid on the thousand dollarbail, which is 10%. and that person diedil before i was coming here to be before i left on a plane. paper, the baltimore banner and just last week in of died in jail, one for medical reasons. one, they're n sure. but the fact of the matter is that they are because they didn't have bail and they are there when even had a trial yet. they've not been coanything and they're just waiting for a and so i that the more people really understood about cash bail it would be incumbent upon people who want justice to do everything that can be done that was done in illiestablish as the blueprint for how it can be done to eliminate cash they'll system. and just reference lack of a cash bail system

doesn't mean tha because people are presumed to be a threat to these killed someone. you're probably not going to be able released. but for people, the vast majority people who commit nonviolent those 13 million people held, you know, barring some extreme cannot m bail. the juvenile justice just one aspect for me that. just tears at my heart and i don't know why they it the juvenile justice because the word juvenile the means youth we don't say oh i'm going school and pick up my juvenile. i mean they children they teenagers up to the age of but that terminology is the humanizing kid's what they are. there have been cases, florida, that i tell about wheres six years old have been. yes. thepped, but the child was and having a temper tantrum

in school. there are other instances where we have what's called jyuvlifers where there are people o crime usually a murder, often not at the age of 15. coming, ordered to spend the rest of their life in prison, even though for every one i brains don'tuntil we're 26. most i know i was like this do you have impulse control issues? used to. oh, you just flying off the handle. i mean whatever needs. but we have!h impulse issues when we're teenagers, you know everyonehey probably wish they hadn't done or said as they were a ager. but those things regardless of if it is urdethem in prison for the rest of their life. a ge ligon is presumed to be was serving juvenile lifer in this was sentenced when he was to ahe didn't understand what was

going fact. the fact of the matter is he was 83. he was finally throu maneuver released from jail for some from prison ford when he was 15. because our system puts away and doesn't even want to further at them. the was released somewhere around 2021 committed he committed it in 1953. an he was in prison and so always acts which is a rhetorical question that really justice most people i assume you would know by are juvenile lifers or somewhere arnd what 2% of those people who arejuvenile and had a sentence of life prison th parole. black people, the interesting about juve justice is i kind of like to compare to what happened t cousin another case of an individual name my when

he came out he had received g.e.d., g.e.d. hehe ultimately married his high sweetheart. they had two lovely children, bought a house. he worneral motors plant town. but he worked there for years. hedisease but for the he could never vote or something he did when he was 16. is that really justice. and it was something again that a prosecutor made that decision to not keep or not return him to juvenile court systemt caused that to be for him obation. action. oh, let me just say about ethan because i think when we look at thence is so ethan couch is a case that was reported in the media. it occurre like more than a moment but ethan couch was a white from texas ande went on a drinking spree. he and his buddies, they got in a car.

his level was three times that of the legal limit. unfortunately, he got into aaccident and he four people died. he killed fourere were nine other people who were injured as a result of one of those nine people were, he was left paralyzed. so ethan wasin a court as well. he should have, but he was prosecuted in a and when it came and he was manslaughter, when it came time sentencing he had had a psychologistnd the psychologist testified that ethan was from a wealthy and his famil' ' mpage and did what he did. not know he did not understand rules. well, the judge evidently bought that argument because ethan sentenced and was sentenced to ten years probation on probation. he ultimately violated his probation anrv time. but at the end of the day, his

was for ten years probation. and for him to get a rehab, that doesn't happen for a kids. the probationthat when i prosecuted and started pros honestly i was doing a good thing when i ofn versus offering them a jail sentence. day, way probation works. i wasn' anyone any favors and. the reason is because most black given, whether they're in court, they are given called supervised probation versus most white people are given unsupervised probation. and and the vast difference is probation that most white people are placed on the get any trouble again if yo crime, you were arrested and ced supervised probation, where i'm thinking i'm litany of things that people have to one

supervised probation and they can have as many ten criteria that they to abidet break the law. they may have toíx they may have to go look for a job, get proof course, it's a victim crime. they may have to contact with the victim if it's a drug, they are not going to be given any help, but they are going to be su come in and basically make sure that they are testing negative, that they are not showing up with any substance in them. and there'sy be restitution, have to pay money back if it's whole long list of things on and the problem with is there are people they themselves alone regularly see a probation officer and that alone can trigger a violation of probation and send someone to jail for justng things that the court system and the prosecutorial systemcy aboutmost egregious, it's hard to rank them, but most degrade.

one of the most egregious instances are wrongful convictions where people have and we've all probably read those in where. people had served time for something not do that they were totally innocent and,ith three homicide detectives who were responsible, and this was not my but who were foridence. again three individuals when to get a murder conviction forindividuals through the innocencehelp, they were ultimately freed an exonerated but they are believed to be th combined the of their times combined is believed to be t serving case for wrongf collective. the three of them served 109 years total between the three of them that while that happened those detectives

are living out t lifretirement and there's never this there usually are not divisions in most prosecutors offices to look towardsh wrongful and what can we do about that not offices that are set up that can take a look for compassionate like and joe liggins case to see dperson still need to be in jail the risk is ano heart she was 19 years old whendrugs and agreed to serve as a lookout on. another person that was going in to do the what's going on inside. she's just thinking the person person was there, ended up killing. and wews states that are called felony murder murder laws, no exist in other. felony law basically says we don't careweren't the person

that pulled the trigger, if you were involved in a crime that was a result of a died as a of that felony, you're going to be convicted as if were the one that pulled theyou can end up going to prison for maurice scott, who was 19 when thatsomewhere. in her 60 is in and she has little chance of getting out of prison. so i just want to move what we can do really quickly. there are so many things that we can do and what my my premise in the book is that we work together as in the vigils, but with alliances that's where things are going to that i talk about in my book that, whether you're 22 or 92, you can do in terms of we're in a world oft more information by being a court

n do that way of a zoom an gain knowledge. you know, as mye, well, what can i do well, really just depends on what your level of interest really is. it's not me telling anyone what they should do, but what i do stress is that we dos collectively, virginia state, any slimis the one state in this country that has more state. and a of organizations, a lot odividuals, a lot of people, the first former confederate state that abolished the death penalty. and so there are that can be donen level when we're all working concert togetherr instance in virginia they had a law on90. so quite a bit of a ways back and laws seem like it's okay is only one of two state that said that if are

convicted by a jury that the jury would decide on your fate yournce. and the reason why that's problematic up giving more people because they're not privy to sentencing that. a judge would know the jury just much, just knows, okay, this is a crime years. that's pretty much what they know versus a judge can always factors they know about. so at th law that had been on the books ever since virginia was a was through the collective and individual liminated. and so there are things that can and of, like i said in illinois with the cash bail, which i hope at do. so there are things that can be done and individually and that is where i always say that i do ha things can change because they arepf many states that have 35 states have what's known as practices where they just their name they've committed and their record and they look see are you

someone that hasdo you really need, you know, some type of counseling? back on track some way. i people that book and one day joses just recently reelected in travis county texas which is the jurisdiction where austin texas is. he gave a good example of how his program worked.he was two years into the job at that moment, one individual had charge of possession of cocaine. and i think we know that i up with a drug conviction, it's going to kind of limit your chances forlot of other things. but instead of getting a conviction he set that individual on path of perhaps 12 or 14 months of things that they one was getting more education but the m a, he put him in a program to bec a carpenter's apprentice. and at the end of whatever the period of months was that became a union member or a union card member. they came out as a carpenters

and earning something like 20 some dollars an hour versus getting conviction on their f it was a suspended sentence for possession ofhose are the types of things that i hoping that look ways that we for people. and then lastly, sometimes people ask where, are you going to get the money for this? i meanou talk about programs and restorative justice. where does the money come from? and is more cost effective to doiv justice than it is to imprison someone in alameda county? it would cost one of their programs. it 40 $500 to put a person in a diversionary. versus $23,000 for that same person. for th be on probation. what we're talking or what i'm emphasizing in the book is what's called justice we the funds of building another prripretrial that will cost 1

bi so justice reinvest that means yome money and you invest it in the communities. you help people so that find out what is going on in their what does the community need. and that has been going on in other areas, just not going on enough such that we can eliminate the largest world. i was you for this talk of course. and second off, i was wondering if there was case that you specifically dealt with that kind of led you to kind of like divest from being a prosecutor, if there was one. n the earlier on, but of thinking like oh this isn't actually i want to be do so when i went to the office, state's do this when i was hired, i was never i'd made it i. wasn't there to be a career prosecutor from the beginning.

so i was there to get experience thanbut my office had hired me. i knew that from the but one of the things just to follow up a little bit that makes the system be is the fact people stay there too long. so one of the best pieadvice i got was from my supervisor who told don't gi break be tough on him. but he knew that i didn't is lifelong prosecutor and retire told me is that don't stay longer than five years because ytathan five years, that which you you don't want to to become that mentally. and so i out years. then any other topics anybody wants hear abo i didn't look at my notes i don't know what i left out. all thank you so much ry enlightening talk

a state could more about what ur onng prostitution or sex work? prosecuting for what? tion or sex work? oh my god. so in during the baltimore and a lot of other prosecution of those types of cases which that discretion even though the laws on the you a mr. phillips, we're just not goingem. and are the types of casesuld not be prosecuted at all? i doen we're still actually taking people to court for prostitution, but that is still thing. thank you. thankou, sir. that's just a remark. all talk very eduinspirational. i'm currently aal disparities research

on the medicine side. background. okay. so first of all, i'm just work that you've produced and theinformation together. i'm like you0 to 30 pages of references know to really educate people andnowledge up front before a conversation about how we can congratulate patients to you veryat you're doing so it's first thing how do we restorative how do we reinvestment because you know seem so pointed in that direction you know how do we incentivize coming away from theprotocol almost that's been developed. so i thinkwe have to do collectively is for which is a lot of this work was done with illinois in the cash bail system because that an uphill battle we to let people know there' between perception and reality and the perception is that if we don't block

everybody, if we don'more, create more maximum, then we going to be safe. can't let these people on the be. and at the end of the that thinkings to reality thag the thing that we're doing and have been doi us unsafe and that what helps us to become safe are the things that are in a restijustice vein or in the diversionary vein with jose if if you were giving someone chance and an opportunity, you're addressing their mental health needs or their substance ab needs. and if you can be effective with, you know, certain percentage of people when that then they're not to go back and crime because they have something else there for them. son point is changing d reality because perception is that and at the end of the day in terms of violent crimes the study from 2023 december of 2023

showed that. the last ten years was the lowest one record murder and violent crimes. and that's on a us what may be different in other jurisdictions. but we're talking about the people, not the same. it's that crime is rampant and we just have to do something and build morens. so it's a matter of just educating, you know, educating opone of the things that i like to tell people to do th didn't mention is if you can go to a talk and hearomeone who's been formerly incarcerated or returning, it will change your d because they can explain it a lot better thanat the penal system that we have, how that just self perpetuates know in and out in and out and that they had been given a chance. even the people that have been ed when they come out, they have nothing and that if give people a chance to to become better at restorative justice and dealing with their own in different from person to person

that it would be safer for everyone. and it is a safety a public safety issue. thank you for cominghello everyone. welcome to the