schuster, i would like to thank you, the readers. here's to another hundred years. thank you and good night. >> supreme court justice ketanji brown jackson and u.s. district judge richard gurgleis rights mn event marking the 70th anniversary of the brown v.

the board of education decision. the discussion was hosted by the supreme court historical society as part of the national heritage lecture series. it runs about an hour. conversa] [inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations]■ >> good evening, everyone. i heard carter phillips, treasurer of the historical society.ancy but

amuse a face and that directions what's a niceo/ c of there. i am asked tohe remind everyone, please turn off all cell phones, tablets, apple wes, even if in silent mode they can cause interference with the sound system in this courtroom so appreciate your assistance on that. obviously we walk in the this evening. this particular heritage lecture has been a long time coming. we began this in 1990 1990t the court packing plan and then privilege of doing it again in 20 came to celebrate justice marshall's 50th anniversary on the court, so it's sort of fitting we are now here once again after the pandemic. it's nicehe to be back in the courtroom for the 70th courts landmark decision. of course this is a program we've been on with the house historical association and the use of capital society, and we appreciate very much our partnership in that endeavor.

i'd like to express the societies gratitude this t eveng to justice ketanji brown jackson. this is b a first event that wee had the privilege of having her participate with the society, and she doing double duty tonight. first she will be a host, and also participant. after judge gergel speaks, , she will join him in conversation to discuss around person board of education. as a suspect you all know, this is a pretty busy time for the justices of the court, so we thanked her for taking the time away from her our many dutid were honored by her presence. it is cliché to say that if someone needs no introduction nonetheless, my job is ton introduce the introducer so i will fulfill my responsibility. justice jackson was born in washington, d.c. september 14, 1970. it's the same date, not the exact

date, but the same day that justice motley was born. mostly probably know about the judge. she was the first black woman to argue in the united states supreme court, first black federal district court judge. she argued ten cases in the supreme court and one night of them. that is a record i come nowhere near this evening. odyssey she played a significana role in the brown litigation with thurgood marshall. justice jackson grew up in miami, florida, andd private-public schools, sorry, she graduate from harvard ratcliffe with bachelors degree in government and graduated from harvard law school in '96. after law school she had three clerkships, has become more the tradition. in my day to back was pretty much it but now you get three including one with justice stephen private the court. in addition to her professional experience in private practice the united statess oflishe worn

sentencing commission for three years as a federal public defender for three years here in d.c. she returned to the u.s. sentencing commission in 2010. shen served on the just distrit court for the district of columbia from 2013-2021, when president biden a pointer to the d.c. circuit in 2021. she was here long enough to get eea cup of coffee basically him and then was nominated to the united states supreme court, and she was confirmed in 2022 and took the oath of office on june 30, 2022. i am honored andrateful to present justice jackson and to thank you for being here this evening. [applause] >> thank you all very much. thank you, carter, for that kind introduction, and thank you for the invitation to beo with you this evening.

my colleagues and i support the important work of these supreme court historical society and the work that the society is doing to present the court, the constitution, and the federal judiciy into expand educational outreach to the public about the supreme court's history. it is a pleasure to host this special society program this te. two nights lecture and conversation as you heard comes just days after the 70th anniversary of the court's decision in brown v. board of education. given that history, it is actually quite meaningful for us to be in the courtroom tonight to take part t in the commemoration of brown. brown. in a few moments we will have the privilege of hearing how he resides in the same courthouse in charleston south carolina on.

you will learn a great deal about him tonight. judge richard is a native of south carolina and grandson of ruian and jewish immigrants. he is a graduate of duke university and the duke university school of law. he practiced law in columbia south carolina for 30 years specializing in complex civil litigation before president obama nominated him as he was district judge and he was confirmed by the senate by unanous of 2010. shortly after the confirmation, he discovered that his maternal as american citizens in the courtrooms to which he was assigned. a fact that he has shared with

naturalization ceremonies. he's presided in the federal courthouse since then and has handled a number of significant cases including the 2017 trial who killed nine people attending a wednesday bible study out a methodist church. he is the author of numerous articles and books with a particular focus on american legal history. with his wife, who is here with us tonight, a retired historian the author of in pursuit of the tree of life, a history of the early columbia south carolina. his most recent book from which tonight's talk is drawn is an example of courage, the blinding of sergeant and the awakening of president harry truman and judge.

it's been referred to by "the new york times" is riveting, remarkable. by professor henry louis gates as a timel achievement. they have two sons both of whom are with us tonight, richie who practices law in charleston and joseph graduated yesterday from the law school. i could go on but i won't because like you, i'm anxious to hear from my friends, so please join me in welcoming george gurgle. [applause] >> thank you justice jackson for that kind introduction. we have been, initially we were sort of reconstructing our relationship. i've been confirmed about a year. justice jackson was on the sentencing commission nominated for the district court, but not

yet confirmed. we were at a sentencing commission conference and had been friends and colleagues since, so we are so proud of her and i'm truly honored to be here with her on this event. december 9, 1952, thurgood marshall, the legendary chief counsel of the naacp stepped up to the podium in this courtroom and the argument the supreme court's long-standing president of plessy v ferguson should be overturned. he was followed by john w davis himself ag legend. they argued that he remains good law. the two titans met at the crossroads of history with the outcome of this historic case to define what type of nation america would be. the stakes were huge with major

portions of america remaining rigidly segregated in which many african-american citizens lived in a twilight world between slavery and freedom. would this country live up to its promise of equal justice guaranteed by the american constitution? then he would assume the case for this momentous argument between thurgood marshall and john w davis was brown v board of educati. that assumption would be wrong. the case argued that day and continued into the next day involved a challenge to the racially segregated public school system of claritin county south carolina. the case would later be consolidated with three■eu3 oths under the title brown v board of education. thurgood marshall argued the briggs case exclusively in the

first round of arguments in 1952. believing it was the most important of the school segregation cases pending on the supreme court's dockets. the first case that was filed where the groundbreaking evidence of the studies was offered and the only case in which a dissead filed asserting that plessy should be overturned,e included in all government mandated public school segregation violated the equal protection of the 14th amendment and was unconstitutional. when the supreme court issued its unanimous decision may 17, 1954, the standard was the centerpiece of what is regarded as the most important case in american history. it is altogether fitting that in this program honoring the 70th

anniversary of the decision we turn our attention to the case into the remarkable dissent which helped this country on knot of jim crow. it should be noted that the issue onto the docket of the supreme court did not to simply begin with the filing of the suit were the citizens petition that made the simple request of the black children of the claritin school district asked children.he bus it was a long forgotten incident of racial violence inflicted on the returning african-american world war ii veteran would set off a cascading series of events leading to the eventful day of 1952 when thurgood marshall stepped up to the podium in this courtroom to argue plessy v ferguson should be overturned. as world war ii came to an end,

900,000 african-americans, most from the south. returning the veterans expected more respectful treatment once they returned. instead of the old practices of the disenfranchised segregation persisted in returning veteransv who resisted acquiescence to the customs were often viewed as a threat to the racial status quo. the returning african-american veterans wanted their own new deal. late in the afternoon february 12, 1946, sergeant isaac watered, a decorated soldier boarded a greyhound bus in georgia after discharging

hours earlier from camp gordon and was traveling to columbia south carolina been known to his hometown of winnsboro where h he after several years of subrogation occasioned by his for service. he struck an impressiveigure in his uniform with sergeant stripes on h soldiers and battlefield decorations on his chest. during one of the frequent stope white bus driver and asked if he could step off the bus at the next stop to relieve himself. at that time interstate buses did not have restrooms and greyhound drivers were instructed to accommodate such requests by their passengers. instd the bus driver snapped at watered. i ain't got time to wait and ordered him to return to his seat at the back of bus. to the apparent astonishment of the bus driver, back telling the driver talk to me like i'm talking to you. i am a man just like you.

the stunned bus driver told watered to go ahead but at the next stop in south carolina the bus driver now no longer concerned with staying on schedule d part of his bus in search of a police officer to have ordered removed from the bus and arrested. watered soon found himself confronted by the police chief of bates berg who responded to woodard's effort to explain himself and they escorted him off to the town jail. on the way, woodard was repeatedly beaten with a blackjack and ultimately driving the end of the baton into both of his the sergeant was then thrown in a semi conscious state into a ja cell for the night. when he awoke the next morning he realized held see. later that day, woodard was transferred to the veterans hospital in columbia where he was determined to be irreversibly blinded.

accounts of the woodard beating and blinding were reported in the black press and received nationwide attention when orson welles focused on the incident in his weekly national radio program on abc radio over four successive weeks. mass meetings were soon organized and black communities across the nation protests his treatment. meanwhile other black veterans returning to their homes in the rural south confronted other incidents of racial violence including racially inspired murders. no state prosecuted those involved in any. september 1946n of civil rights leaders met with president truman at the white house. a deeply distressed by this wave of racial violence prior to the meeting, truman's staff advised him to respond and there's

little he could do to address these. civil rights leaders urged him to call congress back into a special session to address the spreading violence. he expressed sympathy but there was little he could do because it wasn't public support for the civil rights legislation. leading the group was water by the executive secretary of the naacp and one of the most loyal and prominent supporters in the civil community. it was apparent that the president did not appreciate the gravity of the situation. he changed the discussion by sharing in detail the blinding of isaac ketanji. as the tragic■ story unfolded, e sat riveted and became agitated with the idea that a uniformed decorated american soldier had

been so cruelly treated. abandoning the advice of his staff, he said my god i had no idea that it was as terrible as that. we've got to do something. at the following day he wrote his attorney general and shared with him the story of the blinding noting that the police officer deliberately put out the sergeant's eyes. truman made it clear that the time for federal action had now arrived. three business days after president truman's letter arrived at the department ofe tl made the unprecedented announcement that the department of justice would prosecute the police chief for the deprivation of the civil rights of isaac woodard. for violating the civil rights of a black citizen in the deep south they face dauntingc challenges. jury rosters were drawn from entirely disenfranchised.

all-white juries and grand any civil rights claims and prosecutors wanted nothing to do with civil rights cases. indeed, a decision by the justice department to charge the police chief with a misdemeanor is because it was doubted that he south carolina federal grand jury would return an indictment. .. is the eighth generation charlestonian. and his father, and his father a confederate veteran. judge was initially skeptical of the several prosecutions. when the blinded sergeant took the stand detailed his vicious chief, judge or wearing a new a grave wrong had been done.

he was equally aware his all white jury it would not convict the obviously culpable officer. he was right 28 minutes after deliberation commence the jury announce the acquittal of linwood shawl. shawl supporters cheered his acquittal notice judge waring's a wife, elizabeth who attended the trial left the back o tears. judge joined his wife later that evening both were traumatized by the trial over which you just the trout force the judge and his wife to stare directly into the southern racial abyss of youthat would forever transform both of them. later described the trial as his personal baptism of fire. it wiped baptism they returned home to which was held in columbia resolved to learn more about issues of race and justice.

a subject which that give it frankly little thought to it prior to the trial. these are not subjects could be openly discussed among white charlestonian's of the day wearing society to undertake their own self-directed study each evening after dinner elizabeth would read out loud a portion of a selected work to allow the judge to rest his eyes after a day of handling his judicial duties. the cutting edge work by gunnar myrtle would later be cited at the famous footnote 11 in brown; versus board of education. notice judge waring's inuit

views race and justice evolved george elmore a black businessman filed suit in the columbia in 1947 challenging the democratic party's all white primary. elmore was represented by thurgood marshall 39-year-old chief counsel of the naacp who was already developing a reputation of almost legendary proportion. skilled litigator and legal strategist. south carolina political leaders were united inhe the whitema notwithstanding clear u.s. supreme court precedent smith versus all right holding a white primary is unconstitutional. they don't always listen to what you all say, right customer judge waring understood that any decision recognizing the right of minority citizens to vote would produce an intensely hostile and possibly a violent

public reaction. he came home the night he was assigned the case told elizabeth up to now we have been doing this privately but if i ruled rule forthe plaintiffs in this r lives will never be the same word elizabeth, now a convert to the cause says i am with you from start to finish. waring's conclude as he later shared with a historian after he retired, his choice was either quote to be entirely governed by the doctrine of white supremacy were to be a federal judge inside the law for july 12 , 47 judge waring issued his decision elmore versus rice declaring south carolina white primary unconstitutional. waring ended his order b stating it is time for south carolina to rejoin the union and to adopt the american way of conducting elections. the groundbreaking nature of the elmore decision was immediately

appreciated by the leadership of the naacp in a private note the thurgood marshall hastings would later be appointed judge in american history wrote thurgood, i read south carolina decision three times i still do not believe it. and many respects i think this is your greatest legal achievement. the segregationists would not give up. soon a new party rule was adopted allowing blacks to vote in the priority primary so long as they pledge their support to racial segregation. no surprising new lawsuit was filed. fights thurgood marshall. judge waring's summoned an emergency hearing in his courtroom required all 93 members of the democratic party executive committee to be present. these were the political powers of south carolina judge denounce their efforts to defy his earlier ruling faced with

contempt could impose a fine or jail sentence. he wanted those present and if they violate his orders again there would be no fines. think about that one. there after african-americans by the thousands registered to vote in south carolina. the response of was thunderous. death threats written and oral or constant a cross was burned at the waring's residence bricks were thrown to the living room window. the order of attorney general was provided 24 hour u.s. marshal security. time magazine described as that man they love to hate. also notice she was proving to be a person of courage. the purpose of the vilification was intended to he did not work

he continued his study and reflection on race, injustice and america became convinced the foundation of jim crow segregation, the supreme court 1896 in plessy v ferguson was legally, historically morally wrong. after the supreme court ruled with the plaintiff at 90 and civil rights cases issued in june 19501 involving a separate but not equal texas law school sweat versus painter and a for an african-american student was required to sit in the hall outside t classroom mclaurin versus oklahoma board of regents. judge was convinced the supreme court was ready to reverse plessy f a proper school segregation case can be placed on its docket. judge noted on his docket in charleston a case for south

carolina sought to equalize the facilities the districts in of black and white at the time, litigating civil rights cases in the south was a very tough slog for naacp lawyers. strategy of using plessy as a sword. they were not challenging segregation they were challenging the lack of equality. this was a highly successful legal strategy they were winning their cases. it was a brilliant kind of strategy it avoided challenging segregation. the original but has controversy because every time plessy was used to hold the rights of african-american citizens it was in another way sick curing the inferior legal status. the original complaint did not explicitly allege segregated

public schools were unconstitutional. that was on axle and they were not asserting that at the time. marshall pio at the charleston courthouse on november 17 , 50 pretrial conference on the friday before the trial was to begin on monday. he was advised the judge wanted to see him in chambers. after being office without oppog counsel present he told marshall i do not want to try another separate but equal case and bring me a frontal attack on segregation. marshall responded judge, it is on our agenda it is just not tonight we don't think this is the case. we don't think this is the time what he was really saying is they will kill my plaintiffs in south carolina if we do this for judge was unpersuaded telling marshall this is the case. this is the time.

marshall urged the judge to think practically noting any decision by him overturning would be reversed on appeal by the fourth circuit. since the challenge of public school segregation contested the constitutionality of the state law he would request the appointment of a three-judge panel the docket of the united states supreme court up to this point naacp highly successful legal strategy had been carefully build a one case on top ofther. never trying to get ahead of the supreme court. the path waring was suggesting was a bold and unflinching attack on segregation routes in branch. a few minutes after this dramatic encounter burn can be in pretrial conference publicly pressed marshall for the use challenging the constitutionality of public school segregation.

marshall stated he was and agreed to the pending lawsuit re- filed a new first frontal attack on public school segregation in american history. newly filed case was tried in the charleston federal courthouse in may 1951 before a three-judge panel concluded judge waring. prior years of civil right cases in the south were sparsely attended by members of the black community less than be identified as members of the naacp. that you would get you fired if you are a schoolteacher it would be seen as a challenges to the racial status quo. on the morning of may 28, 1951,n african-americans line up at the federal courthouse down broad street this far as the eye could see. hoping to observe what many thought might be the mostñ important case in american history process thurgood mars

federal courthouse that morning he turned to his young assistant said bob it is all over. gardner his young assistant was mystified and said what did he me? anymore. those in attendance in the courtroom were not disappointed by the performance of thurgood marshall. the trial court the testimony of doctor kenneth clark who had the effects of segregation ond black children using black-and-white goalswas entertd marshall devastating cross-examination of the state's key witness whose last name was crow. pathmark is judge waring anticipated the majority of the panel ruled self criminal laws mandated segregated soo were lawful under the plessy doctrine. but judge waring fully aware he

was writing a dissent for the ages wrote an elegant and brilliant attack on the foundations of segregation in america. he stated quote we must face without evasion or equivocation the question as to whether segregation in education in our schools is legal under the 14th amendment. judge waring discussed in some detail the testimony of doctor kenneth clark regarding his studies which he stated demonstrated the humiliation of being set aside associate with others of different colors has a damaging effect upon the mental processes of our young. the recent decisions of the supreme court striking down segregated schools of higher education judge waring concluded segregation in education could never produce a quality it is an evil that must be eradicated.

adopted and practice in the state of south carolina must go and go now. segregation is per se inequality. judge waring noted in his dissent the targeted retaliation had experienced in the result of their participation in the case which has included the loss of jobs calling in local fire department to respond to a fire that burned on the home of the plaintiffs community leader reverend joseph delayed for judge waring stated have shown courage in bringing and presenting this because the face of the long-established age old way of life the state of south carolina has adopted, practice, lived in since and as a result of the institution of human slavery. waring's dissent issued in june 1951 was the first challenge the government mandated segregation

by federal judge justice harlan's historic dissent and plessy 55 years earlier. in early 1952 some sixs versus t ement exhausted his ostracism and charlestonl moved to new york city. followed closely segregation cases in virginia, delaware, kansas all were consolidated for the united states supreme court with briggs under the name brown versus board of education. all the other school desegregation cases involving 14 different judges the only way it waring concluded public school segregation even if the facilities were equal violated the 14th amendment of the united states constitution. mate 171954 theup court handed down unanimously landmark decision in brown versus board of education the court found

public school segregation generates the feeling of inferiority and children may affect the hearts and minds in a way unlikely to ever be undone citing the dull studies of doctor clark. the court explicitly cast aside separate but equal doctrine adopted the per se rule all government mandated public school segregation was unconstitutional. first advance by waring in his briggs dissent on the night of the brown decision the leadership to the small upper east side apartment to toast the man they viewed as a father of e warren shortly after the brown decision his admiration for the clear-cut decision when you decide the case i've been pretty lonely up to that time. the chie was the one to be admired.

you had to do it the hard way. he was always philosophical about what he called the unpleasant repercussion of the civil rights decision an oral history late in life waring observed taken the whole thing and balce you do not often in life of the opportunity to do something you really think is good. are down my alley the othernything. they're offset by what i think is really important contribution to the history of our country. thank you. [applause] >> all right. r me? wonderful. really informative. we have a few follow-up questions and then we will turn over to the audience.

so you mention judge waring was alienated from the white political establishment. in south carolina in particular. do you have a sense of how he was received by other judges? >> it's kind of interesting. he had, in these white crime area cases it when upon apped the fourth circuit unanimously affirmed his two decisions. john j parker parker gordon commented to the court■ at one point in the late 20s and did not get confirmed becausese of s perceived views on race. he wrote the decision affirming waring. he was an admirer. around the country he wased ande justices of this court very well. well. they admiredl. there was ath point we came to

washington for a series of meetings. one was with chief justice. he wrote a letter later to thurgood marshall and said, i have met with the chief justice. he shares our views. isn't that interesting? that view't is vinson had been resistant. he also in that same visit met president truman, and their discussion began with truman saying, ye judge, dean of the story of the blinded negro sergeant? he said, mr. president, i tried that case. so i i would say that i mean,e of these judge waring would often say come he was kind of aa national figure in the late 40s, he would, reporters would ask him fairly commonly, what got into you? how did you change? and he would say while on the bench i developed a passion for justice. that's a wonderful statement.

there were a lot of other southern federal judges who apparently did not develop at that time a passion for justice. it wasn't like there was a clamoring to follow him. it was really frank johnson and the three great judges on the fifth circuit, that's really later. he's already retired by the time they get on the bench. they are eisenhower appointees. at the time is up there by himself, i think the answer was judge waring had begun the most reviled man in the white south. he had at a minimum begrudging respect of hisim colleagues and so >> you talked a little bit about president truman and his knowledge of the isaac woodard story. your book talks about how that it's what motivated the president to make some changes.

can you tell us about those? >> yes. that session september 1946 where walter wright shows within the blinded isaac woodard. it captured his imagination in a way that no of these other incidents, and two other incidents in the south during this time, some racially inspired murders, the didn't quite hit him in in a way ane repeatedly tell the the blinding of isaac woodard. almost anyone who would listen to them.to in the same letter he writes to the attorney general and says basically prosecute the guy. he also says we've got to do more than prosecute. he said going to appoint the first presidential commission on civil rights. that commission which was a landmark event in and of itself issued a report whi appointmente these rights and offered about

four or five dozen suggestions of how to undo jim crow. many of these are the basic blueprints for the johnson administration, but there was -- and congress are going to go along with any of it at the time. but harry truman had one thing he could do. he could issue an executive order desegregating the armed forces of the united states. d in july of 1948 he did just that, i campaign. and what is a remarkable letter i found in the truman library, a friend of his from missouri road him and said, harry, get off the civil rights thing, you are going to lose election, you're going to lose the south. truman wrote him h back and he said to his friend ernest knowts, ernie, you don't what i know. he tells him the story of the blinding of isaac woodard. andy says if i lose this

election over this issue, it will have been for for a go. and then truman second term he foley desegregated the military over the very strong resistance of the army brass. and when he left office in early 1952, 95% of american troops were in desegregated units creating the first multiracial institution in american life. so here's sort of the irony. here's this story about a blinded veteran that no one remembered who influenced may be the two seminal events of the early civil rights movement, the desegregation of the armed forces and brown v. board. >> tell me how you came up on this story. how did you do the research? you mentioned being in the"y truman library. >> well, firstn of all as you rememberem this when you becomea district judge it kind of land on you come right?

you areoud like oh, my god it'se real thing. and you know you are sort of with responsibility. i wanted to know because i have this love of history, i want to know the history of record, and particularly i want to know abouthe necessity member of our court, judge waring. through all those and they're been articles theis time, they have never been good work. nobody really answered this question, what changed judge waring? what motivated this dramatic from being basically a mainstream democratic political paul to being the civil rights visionary? how did this happen?on and as i looked into it i found a letter he had written in 1945 and which he described himself as a graduates which meant that he didn't want the federal courts or civil rights groups to

be altering changes in southern life but he thought it was necessary for for a gradual evolution of southern life, which meant ten years from never, okay? by 1947 he is threatening to jail white politicians for anything with the rights of african-americans. so something happened in that two year period and dead i middle of it is a trial of the blinding of isaac woodard. i started with the hypothesis it. that was sort of midway through my research some offered me an oral history, a tape of an oral history of the one named ruby cornwell who was the matriarch of the charleston civil rights community and she was veryy cloe with waring. so she was being interviewed and she was talking about judge waring. in middle of it, i'm sitting here listening to headphones and she says they know what changed him, don't't you ask here it

comes. she said, it was that blinded negro sergeant. he told me it was his baptism of fire. so there i have it. so you know, so now i have that part that this story that led i believe contributed mightily to the brown decision, it was, was the story of this blinded african-american soldier. and then i asked, how did this case get prosecute? in 1946 the justice department was not prosecuting white cops for blinding black men. that just was not happening. and as i dug into the story, i came across this letter from harry truman to tom clark, and i realized harry truman had ordered it. that's how it happened. and so now i had this story that the two major events of the

early civil rights movement came from thisve e remembered, in spite of e to act in a courageous way speedy will turn to the aughts but one ask you one more question about finding unusual historical facts. how did you find out about the conversation between thurgood marshall and judge waring? >> well, i wasn't there. we will start with that. there was a gentleman by the name of alexander rivera was a reporter for the pittsburgh courier. his dad was the the presidee north carolina naacp. he was, he was you to someone who, he always had a camera around his neck. he prided himself on being a a photographer, a photojournalist, but he covered the civil rights cases. he was a fraternity brother of marshall a very close friend. they actually sort off traveled together whe they would cover

trials. when marshall was summoned to warings office, rivera was within and he walked to the door and, stay out. when he came out marshall told them what happened. late in life after justice marshall and judge waring had passed, rivera said i need to tell a secret, because i know a story. and here told it, he told it actually twice in oral histories, oral history sections at and north carolina. here i have this rather startling story of ex parte communication regarding the most important case in american history, and i was nervous about it. i only had one source, right? i had this one guy. i was at a meeting of judges, and there was that angela jones

who had been a carter appointee, had been on the sixth circuit,, and even thef the naacp. a little bit later era, but he was around. our mutual friend michelle said to me, m richard, go talk to na. you might know something about judge waring. so i pulled him aside and i said i'm working on this book, and i was wondering whether -- he said, are you writing autocracy of waring? i said no, no. i'm writing aboutti a story, started telling them low bit about it, and he said, i said but i'm curious have you ever heard about the conversation between waties waring andmb thurgood marshall and his t áq chambers? he said yes, i know that story. i sit, who told you? he said walter white. thurgood marshall's loss told him the story. and he said in my autobiography i did want to

describe it for the same reason you ask me about it. i have not read his autobiography. i wen and read it, and he says, has this line, he says it is long overlooked that waties waring inspired thurgood marshall to attack segregation root and branch i said mate, so would would youou talk about? he said you need to publish, you need to tell the whole story. so there, i thought i had to sources, two pretty good what. >> is in once an audience like to ask a question? >> yes, ma'am. >> thank you very much for your remarks. erest you know, judge, if you proceed a difference in how your book is a role in the concept of justice, especially with regard to race, i thought about it bef the national conversation about race and today? >> youut know, i'vuóe got to say that i was sort of already there

before. i was, by 2020 the book was out. it came out in 2019. so i get more frequently asked did the roof case influenced me, and actually it did. i have mostly written book by that point. one of the things we've got to do, this is what the supreme court historical society is so important, we have got to remember our history. there's a lot of efforts to model that story, and i think telling the story in a candid way, and opening them about the first 40 or 50 pages are a pretty tough free.ibes a blind c woodard, and to stop a pretty sight. but i i thought it was important for people to jim crow segregation, that he wasti not a benign thing that everybody was happy to go alongerlying it wase threat and use of violence where

necessary. and isaac woodard that dave was viewed as a threat to a social order. black veterans were viewed as a threat, who came back and they wanted, they wanted and a br deal than they have had before.v so i got to say that ihitant th. and the george t floyd episode brought may be a younger generation knowledge of some of this o history, but you know police violence has been an issue many years before 2020. >> how did sergeant woodard l >> well, you know, when these events arose, isaac woodard became a very well-known figure. he gave talks around the country. there was a benefit concert in

new york, which 23,000 people attended, count basie, , cab galloway, others performed. joe louis was a chairman of the connecticut he was a reigning heavyweight shaping of the will. the was interesting them i found naacp payee papers. a staff member wrote while the right and said, you know, in ten years will remember his name. she's worried about him, what was going to happen to them. he was blind, 26, lighted, blackmun had enough problems in 19. pretty tough. he initially really struggled. the military took the view that since he was still wearing his uniform which was required until he got home, the said he was discharged five hours before he was blinded. not qualify for disability. naacp.to give

they f persisted for years urgig congress to change that. he got disability benefits, full benefits and back pay. that tremendously changed his life. in the '50s he was working as a blind man selling newspapers in lower manhattan. we've seen blind people do those things. at one time he had a social worker at the veterans wrote, he and says i am so poor i cannot afford a winter coat. well, after 1961 he becomes far more economica stable. he begins buying real estate, you kind of like that, mr. klein. eone of the country's leading real estate lawyers. he begins to be a label.

i cut to his nephew very well. he was his character who's that he was the guy who collected rent. he said his uncle could make a nickel screen. he supported two sons, his elderly parents. he felt very fulfilled, i think. i do 1956, "jet" magazine ran ao down and then sort of up, and, but here's the tragedy. he never knew his impact on harry truman and judge waring. he never knew that story, and his family, which is very proud of all of this, i mean, they knew. obviously they knew about joe louis and all that. that part they were very aware of. they remember joe louis and he got a limousine to pick him up at his house to the concert and all that. his courage, sort of standg up

for himself had a transformative effect on american civil rights history. you mention in your book about traveling and meeting with local town leaders, this is a town where all this happen, and people have no idea. they didn't remember. and so what would you say explains the lack of recall? have done anything to correct that? >> there is an interesting problem of amnesia relating to there just is. exception. i go to fate. >> -- i want to make sure i where certain events took place. and i thought i knew what the bus stop wasn't really, they didn't have a building.

itha was a place i want to make sure i knew what it was. i knew where the police car companyy sort of the details of that tragic night when he was blinded. so i called the town attorney and they said would you meet me there on a saturday morning, walk me through? you get there. help me with logistics of all this. and so he makes me and within is the mayor whose last name was shawl. unit, i had somethi say in response. we were walking andff the bus co around the corner where he was beaten at the storefront and blinded. we go up the street to the place where the jail was when he was thrown in that night and with court was worth prosecute the next day dater drunk and

disorderly conduct. unjustly. and the mayor, i'm kind of keeping my eye on the mayor, you know? he's become like increasingly upset, i can tell. and he grabs me by my elbow and pulled me aside and said, oh, i wanted you to know i'm not related to the police chief. i'm from missouri. [laughing] then he says, what can we do? and he says i may harry truman fan. he says, he saysm to me, what cn we do to make this right? and we had a series of discussions,ie he and i, and the town attorney, about what they could do. and he did a couple of things. first, they wentt into court and asked for the unjust conviction to be overturned. the day they erected a historic marker, candidly telling the truth ooody

their police chief. they held a ceremony in which the city council, town council and several hundred people from batesburg walked the path from r to where hed was blinded and to the site of the jail, which is now a cleared area, and they had erected a historic marker. and they have now announced that they are turning that space into a park, and they will title it the isaac woodard unity park. "new york times" wrote an article about this was a town who got■'s it right. they acknowledge their history. it's a kind of a wonderful story here tragic in the inception but redemptive in terms of the way the town dealt with at. >> i think we have time for one more question.

[inaudible] >> right after world war ii, and that -- [inaudible] they were inspired by jim crow laws. >> that's correct. g was aware of that. what was happening in europe influence him at all? >> you know, the e answer ise did know about, he did know about the nazis and the death camps. he retired he became an active participant, a member ofca the board of conference of christians and jews. in new york. he was also the board of the aclu which is an interesting. so he was, he was aware that the america had fought for liberty

and had fought for the end of the police state and the whole sort of nazi regime. and, yes, i think it influenced him in his own views on race and justice. >> could you all please join me in thanking judge gergel for a wonderful presentation. [applause] .. [applause] >> if you've not doneo right oud order the book on amazon. it's a fascinating read regrets requestmy publisher would like u did earlier by >> by the compliment to the historical society, we appreciate that very much. keep that in mind for the rest

of the reasoning. i want to thank judge jackson and judge gergel tonight. i learned a lot about what was extremely interesting. i wand to commend it to you. and i want to thank our he sponsors the historical society, a capital historical society and we're joined by jane campbell and we look forward to the next event. and there will be a reception outside the doors. and hopefully if you have specific questions you can raise them with the good judge. with that, we are adjourned. thank you. [appl

[inaudible conversations] [inaudible conversations] >> today the former director. national institute of allergy and infectious diseases, dr. anthony fauci tal about the coronavirus pandemic and watch on c-span live or c-span.org. resist the house i back at

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