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>> but observe norms then the institutions never attempt to engage in turn so it reminds us that citizens have to be good citizens in order for government to be good government anyway today our session is continuing theme of building our -- our collect prudence by the study of the past. and we have two talks about the later tradition i guess the book begins with the greeks.

but we will talk later republican tradition and particularly the -- between democracy and republics often overlooked. and we have two talks. i wan to int i will slightly abuse privilege of the chair by saying words about italian republican tradition. th fiv centuries of deflection on self-government that so often gets overlooked in discussion. so let's begin our -- our session with who professor of perdue, university she's also the primary architect of cornerstone liberal arts and approach to general education which i understand has over 60 programs around the country now. >> i guess that's right.

we have 16 representing so you d we will listen for your attention. >> okay. >>■ n [inaudible conversations] that is my cue. >> at this very moment. >> okay all right i guess i don't need this not big enough for paper. okay. so -- thank you or organizers jen and st citizenship and early modern england as io#d to do so but i t that i was also invited here pue university gen ed and call transformative text program in the country. so today i'm going to speak to you from both sides of my split

persona the historian and the teacher and here's my plan. incase you get lost -- our panel is on modern republics as it happens called itself a monarch republic that happened to be a monarchy who citizens also happen to be subjects place this aisle that was layered a place of mtitudes today i will start by discussing citizenship from the medieval tonciple of te enlightenment and conclude by discussing how it might be best of those values to our students. we come together today to exchange ideas in hope of changings lives for the better and enlightenment projects to be sure.now citizenship in medieval cities and town was heads of hoo participated in corporate

communities such as guilds or companies. they attained their status at the end of apprenticeship this came on to the 16th andturies. freeman term interchangeably with citizen or had privile and responsibilities that were essential to the well being of the town. justice, order taxation trade poverty, morality administered regulated and funded locally. so this urban base citizenship grounded in social practice within the towns and cities the guild even the churches thereenc mindedness shared responsibility and even empowerment. now civic elites counted on their fellow citizens even noncitizens to help maintain order and social harmony. thus public lies of the city crime and punishment traitd and

commerce religious devotion and celebration was a communal endeavor among the wide spectrum of urbanites now following the dissolution of the religious de the 1530s these self-governing cities borough and townships beam responsible for the administration of poor relief along with schools and hospitals. fortunately, as city governments have become more complex, at the very same time medieval notions of public activity were being infused by renaissance notions of civic mindedness. the classically inspired curricula of the new grammar school counselor and lawyers in london to magistrates in the boroughs and towns to see themselves as free men committed to public servicee commonwealth. to be wise honest, discreet, thist, ideal of the articulate citizen moved by reason and

moderated by self-control. thus it was the traditional ideas of corporate citizenshipdc humanism to create a vibrant urban political culture. now, historians give this mode h marks, especially as the intellectual roots of republicans sentiments and who are we to argue against the study of the humanities grammar or poetry and moral philosophy. but with this new understanding of the virtuous citizen we might wonder we're beginning to within a creeping elitism within public life that might exclude shopkeepers and tradesmen. perhaps but the renaissance wasn't only gam i the towns pun intended the reformation and public life. despite it seems destructive

thatch, the reformation had a positive impact on literacy rates and this is especially true ang those puritans bent on reading gospels for themselves leading their families in worship keeping account of their transgressions let me introduce you to my favorite master craftsman a puritan carpenter he left us astowngdzing 2,600 pages of memoir religious reflections, and political reportage and yes wellington wrote more about his spiritual still he certainly saw himself as a citizen of london with certain rights and duties and he l recorded thev increasiy chaotic political kriement of the 1630s that led to the revolution and civil wars of the 1640s.■, now, those wars led to an explosion of sectarian religious groups baptist quakers,

independents etera all advocates for religious and radical political groups, slough michigan the soldier and trmen who compose levelers was popli the good of the people highest law also e used by johne second. thus we see politics being debated in the status quo being challenged far beyond westminster ordinary men and women learn to plea petition and agitate for their concerns. and beyond the streets and the smoke filled taverns there were vice books to guide them where they could learn how to write letters and petitions as well as the rules of civil discourse. these books sought to inculcate a humanist sensibility where in the individual governed by reason and moderation could one such guidebook was entitled an essay on grapery or complete

citizen i hope you got that 1635 this is a back to for drape wool workers that combine humanism and christian morality and teachers tradesmen how to leave justly pleasingly and profitably the author asserts quote socrates that was he fetched philosophy fromeahe cit. socrates for drapers and teach with aggression and achieve their ends. simply put, the middle was noto, in fact, the petition their participation ins guild assemblies common councils proliferated in 17th century nor public sphere. civil war saw women preaching in the streets writing precincting hawking political pam flengt join and women participanted in the

consumer revolio 17th century especially in textiles also shopkeepers apprentices and customers and late 17th century as legenders, stockholders and investors in the empire. i tell because trade and commerce y law and politicss well as the rules of civility and common places were all this extraordinary moment in the last decade of the 17th century when law publishes two treat parliament passes the english bill of rights and act of toleration, and the bank of england and royal exchange are established. the growthab of free market capitalism and democratic so what we see is extraordinaryh and lively urban public sphere where corporate and renaissance values fused and i suspect we will find this in colonial

commonwealth of new england and among the office holders of 18 century french towns which also might help explain why the middle types in france is one historian put it having never read were rties of the revoluti. on thef eve of the 18th century revolutions and before the worst there was already somethingon inherently democratic about this common sense of responsibility and duty among the middle classes. yes, of course, inequis abound nor is about individualie speech. social obligation count more than personal liberties. how much these humanist preaccepts influence courts, counsels pubs, parliament is diicult to delineate naturally rank and discord still among mon

what we can properly call british societyt following the active union in 1707 we see a lott of talk about the need for order and stability. during the long 18th century aren't you amazed how quickly i'm moving during the long 18th century enemy of civil harmony was fanaticism seen by many spom for the bloody civil war of the previous century. in short the kind of religious zeal that sets hearts and minds among the sophisticated reading public lawyers, clergy, merchant, entrepreneur and landowners we see heralding of good order, reason and ■ science and a deep distrust of enthusiasm. enter the enlightenment. but not perhaps as you hitherto knew it enlightenment undergone

surgeries since world war ii. you may remember that in the immediate post war era, the question was whether the enlightenment was key to the prehistoryt of democratic liberalism or responsible for the rise of fascism and communism in darkest episodes of 20th century. more recently in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, interpretations have taken a broader more nuance approach. no longer seen as simply one unitarian liberal sector and movement historians now speak of numerousenment movements including an underground enlightenment radical enlightenment even a christian and jewish enlightenment. your s scholars have even restored god and the clergy to enlightenment. even more encouraging is the recognition that the enlightenment was built on

achievements ofhe the enlightens portrayed radical departure from methodologist of late humanism but rather that there were significant continuities. to me this radestoration of god and classism to 18th century british thought is critical.ecar more accurate depiction of early modern philosophical and political thinking in britain but also because it is the the e world and one we need to pass on ur students. from thomas moore to thomas hobs from john to the scottish enlightenmenton craft, we do not see god declared dead so that man may run a muck. but rather a consistent concern for peace, the desire for human flourishing along with order, stability and and yes they did believe that reason was better than fanaticism that knowledge was better than ignorance, hobs

attacked fanaticismn terms the most offread plagiarized sermon on both sides of the atlantic in the 18th century were those of the rationalist and friend of john locke archbishop and enlightened man to be sured abhorred the fanatic preached a reasonable, useful moral christianity to meappy wise and even prosperous. and speaking of the prosperity adam smith tells us a man who can control emotions we admire the most of a virtuous education to david hume the deplored enthusiasm what joe called the self-defecation of the autointoxicated mind you've got to love that. what we see consistently in the 18th into 19th centuries are

arguments for rashable and youthable society with a commitment to human betterment we might call thisoamerican libt us remember that it was built on the renaissance. today, we live in a profoundly unenlightened culture civic human value dos not reign supreme and even science and technology worked a million wondersg7 humanity seems ready o pitch all we've learned and freedoms we've gained into let us existence plugged into nonsense to a doubt of unreality but that's there's a way back it is to teach the ideals of a truly humanist education. now, perdue university does have a civics requirement that students can fulfill a matter of ways test out talks take an american history course although might be learning in that. the most profoundly consistent

part of these civic requirement is the common experience that students gain all first year striewnts from across our campus through cornerstones two semester sequence transformative text one and two. or goal to teach students from engineering technologies science about and ag through great texts the corlls they will need to be more than bots to write and to speak with precision and elegance to think critically act as citizens of a democracy the skills necessary for a free people. weaving and discussing plato hobbs,ocke madison, dubois and martin luther king with our students is key, cornerstone classroom is a rehearsalr democe place where students of every tt freedom, justice, rights and responsibi and intelligent manner this is where

the many become one. if the liberal arts faculty can do this, then we can be part of the solution rather than the problem. i will allow me to add this -- this past year we piloted a new program cornerstone for business with a tailored sequence of transformative text for the new mitch daniel school of business. this is an effort to teach business majors the foundational text from err stoatle to smith from marx i will conclude by saying i think we can agree i'm sure we can that democracy and higher maybe for some time in jeopardy. we don't have time to squble over the canon or anything else. but rather a duty to perpetuate values of civic humanism and free enterprise to as many students as possible. thank you.

[applause] admirably on time. next speaker is brook manville who is recovering university professor as i understand it. classroom for a long time reinvented himself as independent consultant writes about politics, democracy, technology, business. he admit. having been a partner at mcken diseet one time but anyway -- it does speak to his qualifications as a renaissance man. he's the author of several established by princeton and civic bargain how democracy survives how topical with. so please i think we're going hear about the civic bargain -- >> that's exactly right. thank you, scrams.mes.

[applause] you james. for that introduction, and i just also want to acknowledge melyda you're very interesting rk because you took a very in my view broad perspective about what civic education and citizenship can be formed in workshops and self-governing communities religious debates, and --ti and whatnot. and i think this is a direction that what i'm going to talk about you'll see echoes of more of the same.k so moderate republicans this -- this session but i'm putting a subtitle here a history of and look back as modern republic as part of the story which i think is permissible from all of our speakers. so the book that was referenced

publisheatrote with josh which many of you know he's been long time friend of mine collaborated on many things including real life project which is is quite interesting but -- he civic initiative going on at stanford which many of you know, and as --ti as we go on we all continue to learn from time. our book i want to and why is democracy diagnose and we said well wait a minutey what does history tell us about how it lived how it survived so we took sort of a kind of a wellness perspective to the patient if you like. so we looked at -- the best tested i would say

greatest but well known to democracies broadly defined and republican rome during the third and secon particularly, great britain, course, american democracy. and again i'm going to skate by distinction between republican and democracy. we basically wanted to kind of widen aperture and say, if people are self-governing let's just talk about that as democracy and think about what that means in terms of what allowed it to survive when it was going strong. and -- and, of course, then later some of them didn't survive. but we really wanted to focus on when things were going well, what -- what were they doing what was really making them work? and if you look at the -- at the runs of these democracies many of them were strong and healthy and hanging on for

hundreds of yearses. even though, oient ones eventually did demise. we reframed democracy as the idea of a bargain we called it the civic bargain. and in order to govern yourself as citizens, you have to explicitly come to agreement with other citizens about how are we going to do this? and core idea is that you end up again de facto or negotiating that make for democracy. we defined seven to run through them quickly, the central idea this is a phrase that josh came up with and i think is -- is very help l if you want toveu

don't have a boss nobody has a boss. and i said well okay that's all right but we have to add an asterisk we have a boss. it is each other. so inyo the book we say -- essentially essence of democracy is people living together with no boss. except one another -- and the bargain they make is that you've got to start to come to terms with each other about -- that we're going prioritize the security for all of us. that we're not going to let somebody invade us and -- and you know give up. to our security we're going commit to some level of basic level of welfare. we have to have some level of care for people in order to make ite worthwhile to be part of ths thing opposed to being out on your own. we are going to have to -- develop institutions that allow

us to make institutions and they have to be in charge of institutions and we have to define citizenship and define and defend it and if you're part of this bargain you know who are you and who is not part of this bargain? i mean it is basically like we're going to have a club and if you're going to be inhe club, we have to understand what being in the club means. of course that translatings down to all sorts of laws rules and whatnot. we're also going to have to act with one another in certain ways that make it doable for us to keep this bargain alive one thing that we have to be willing to do h compromise with one oth. we have to make compromises in good faith. because if we're not going to have a boss we're going to have to self-adjust with one another when you have a boss you don't have to surprise you wait to be

told what you need to do right? so good faith compromises a critical part making democracy work all of the these -- these themes we teased out of looking at the four -- histories of democracy saying what were commonalities that came out across these, these case studies? so good faith compromise again, not always done but in general that critical moments democracies figure out how to compromise and do so for the common good they make good faith to do that. and they have to -- get to some kind working agreement with one another about how we will treat each other we. it is a concept brred out of aristotle does not mean you're the personal friendsce of everybody else it does not mean youu always try to find consenst we're happy and delighted with

everybody else. but you have a to treat other people with a certain level of respect in order to just to keep the bargain alive and to go back to the bargaining table when you need to when things start to get broken or -- go off the rails. and, of course, our seventh which is all important for today's discussion is you have to have civic education. there needs to be some ongoing commitment to building up the democracy maintaining it, and then keeping, keeping -- faithful to these other principles. because if you■ó don't, eventuay theou thing the -- the balloon, runs out of the aie part of the democracy anymore. if these other things aren't part oft it and where do they gt that? they learn it. one of our other speakers i mention ben franklin republic if you can keep it came down the steps of philadelphia hall how do you keep it as i think it was

eric who said keep it by educating people. to be citizens, to be civic -- so what exactly is civic education? everybody in this room probably thinks they know what it is. if we did a quick little like an movie where diane k is there and said it is that. negotiation for anybody who wants to talk about this.t acros our -- our looking at these cases, we think it is something like this first of all it covers formal and informal teaching and learning so just again spoiler alert not only talking about classes in universities which most of you are interested in. i'm talking about just the whole -- question ofut what is this thing and involves learning of all different kinds and sorts.

instill knowledge and pride there has to be a certain amount we talked about the specialist of place. there has to be a certainde that this democracy we're living in, kdoesn't mean it doesn't he flaws it doesn't mean that there aren't problems but we have to say you know, net, net -- i'm glad i'm here. net, net i would be sad if it got taken over. by a tyrannical enemy right i'm proud of what we do at some level with all of the qualifications all that you want to say and when it -- when it accomplishes these things or builds these things, there's a purpose. it's so that the citizen today and tomorrow have both the competency and -- the motivation so we talked a lot about skills there's part of civic education or not. i think they are, i think they are partly part of it. but i think motivation and also

just a general sense of living well or living democratly has to be part of it and end purpose that it is keep the democracy relevant and strong so -- i'm in that -- wing on the political spectrum that thinks that there has to be a purpose that is not just about being a better person globally -- learning how to enjoy life to the fullest. i mean, those things are fine and they can come along with the ride. but for the civic education has to be, you know, we need to do this to keep the democracy going. and if there isn't some dotted line between what you're doing in that, it is not really civic education or at least not good civic education by my view. so if you look back at the camp at the cases that we did -- we won't read every dot point but essentially headline is in

evyas helped us start to think about that in terms of britain. there were lots of different aspects of how people learned to be a citizen. there was some schooling -- but there were also for an athens participation in the ea patriotic parade about being athenian there's listening to people like pareklese fuel and service in the merle there was special training for all young men who became■q efebes sign up for certain values and in rome there was a development of sifng ideals through military education and service and rhetoric in order to prepare themselveses for life p in the w

courts. there was whole notion of starting how do you administer an empire because building an empire in early democratic party and when you go out to build a empire you have to understand what roman values are and here's how we operate as a -- as romans and we' walls build aqueducts build yourselves and now that we concur you but you're part of us that is what you're going to do and teaching civic ideals. in britain, melyda mention certain things but for there were and this 17th and 18th century role of coffee houses printed words pamphletting, debating societies -- service in a war several books written about how notion of nation was formed for britain especially during wars to see in art and literatures what does io

be british opposed to french, of course, french is portrayed badly in those kind of cartoons but that is a form of civic etion people see the signs of john bull hanging in front of pubs and they're getting messages. you know being british is a good thing. you should be british. you should join the army. you should get better at doing the things that we do well. and, of course, states -- i know we're going to talk about this later i to try to -- say something that is not going to be repeated but you kw, even before we had our constitutional convention there were colonial in colleagues where people serve, learned how to debate discuss with one another military service in the militia when the constitution was -- agreed in 1787 there was a huge effort to, of course, get and te wonderful federalist papers written which you all know talk

about civic education at scale all across -- the would be american colonies -- there was a discussion of what are we going to do with our government and why is one particular approach better than another? that was another form of civic education. so we were steeped in civic education -- and then -- had carried over in the 19th century public school movement, and then, of course, all of the parades and ceremonies and all of those kinds of things. and then now in universities many of the yiewfts were founded as many of you know with a civic mission and some of that has changed or erodeds why many of u are here today. but that too is part of the story. so i think the -- you know, the idea that we're presenting here is that to think about civic education as architecture there are lots of different

there's going to be schools, there's going to be -- military svice. there's going to be informal life and coffee houses or pubs there are going to be parades. but ideally you want them all o not reenforcing at least debating what does it mean to be -- an american? right? and you know we have to think about how do we sort of infuse that architecture with the right valu w aspirations for the future? as well as for preserving what we have now -- so as i look across this kind of more holistic idea o what civic education has in successful democracies and what has kept them going their best -- there are a handful o themes that i'll just list here. the first is -- i'm going to start in upper left

hand corner they are purpose driven. you can detect in all of the kinds of activities that i see, there's some kindo do with -- you know, where -- trying to build something special and we want to keep it going. you know, we want to fix it if it is broken but you know we want -- we're doing this because we want to kind of be on the team and make it work. it's about -- tradition and duties as much as right. you know a lot of the debates today i think have to do with our rights. and you know slicing more and more finely segments of the population my rights. but so -- discussions is often what comes along with having these particular rights? what is the obligation what are the duty that go along with people who are --; battling for -- for rights and that, of course, goes all the way back to the

greeks where -- the policy and poltaya was about -- what y to support the polis and obligation and opportunity to also participate in the assembly and the law so there's a lot also in this about the pride and furtherance of who we are. so there is i think always at least a little exceptionalism in where there should be -- and, obviously, if you're listening for the last four minutes it is not just about schooling although that is an important part of the architecture. it's taught but it is also experienced. you're in military service or if you're serving in a local community meeting, you are observing your experience and just again to■4rsmphasize it's t

just instructionr in a classroo. and it evolves in step with democracy itself. one of the points of our civic bargain is that in order for democracies to be strong they must continually revisit and update and revise their civic bargain. i mean, a quick, quick assessment of our problems today isivic bargain is out of date. [laughter] we need to fix it. we need to improve it. but we need to do it with some kind of discipline about what is we're actually trying to preserve or further? and what are some of the key conditions that no matter what -- we mtme of these may be retranslated or re-- reorganized in a different way our civic institutions need some work for sure. but fundamentally they have to remain in chae citizenship

has to be designed or we'll end up with a boss. a final slide ao what -- i thi civic education and the work that you're doing in your institutions, i would urge you to challenge yourself about purpose are we clear why we're doing this and thinking beyond the classroom and may be only in the courtroom but are you thinking about how what you're doing in your classroom will be reenforced by other parts of what goes on in society?■ america's tradition and history has to be parof some way. ie think we have to move beyondy oriented citizenship it's not sense call citizenship for the world is -- it is a nice krpght concept but

i don't think it is apartment of civic education as i understand it. it has to be about some level of national pride. i think we have to go beyond thlat we can to apologize for american society in the past but we have to say look, it's not all about just what's the newest outrage we can talk about in american's history. we have to start to look ahead. and -- and rebuild some kind of pride in what we're doing. my last point is that i would have to contextualize democratic citizenship not nearly enough understanding amongst young amen democracy were to disappear and you have to live in north korea would that be okay? we don't lookug it in a vacuum we say well, of course, it is okay to be in america but

you know, you don't have to really worry about what the alternatives are. the alternatives are terrible they're ferocious. we don't expose -- our students and our -- people l understanding of what we have here. last point is that there is no time to waste. our book shows like many others have said before us that when civic education declines so does democracy in the end of the roman republic and the -- was not only because of civic yn see a degradation of the values and understanding of -- of what was needed in order to keep democracy vital. and then on top of that it is very cng in the newspaper that we have lots of foreign enemies who are absolutely delighted at the fighting that is going on in our society.

so we don't have decades to figure this out. they have to do it soon. thank you. [applause] excellent given too many really to talk about in there. in our discussion i'm going slightly with the organizers a i've been entering my 39th year for round of history at harvard who can tell me -- to mention by today, and i get ? a slide here. another slide -- the project is here it is a book

withy old high school buddy lincoln scholar calle is a history of the london tradition designed to be published by encountser books designed to be as it was a sequel to bill land of hope. it's a work on the western tradition and it is really the moment to support classical education movement and also the civic education movement that's going on. so it is a purpose felt book where we try to give people reasons for pride in the western tradition that -- you know western history western not regularly taught in the united states in the 17 -- 80s.i think that people know nog at all about western0 civ is why they attack it so much because they don't know anything about it. big project at the moment. and we hope to have the book in

the fall -- this slide gives impression that it is but not quite it will be -- in the fall. so i just want to comment make a few comments about the ita thats the -- missing link when the history of democracy and republican traditions. when talk about the to talk aboe greek democracy and roman republic the same thing and somewhat suspicion of democracy and especially in the issues of deliberation for example, greeks are hurting the population into a -- into a theater and -- each other he thinks that's not

real not a real to have good government so he reserves a method to have distribution among being educated and having people herded into pens when there's an election and more drobbed their vote not talk very much. these reaction is when the senate someone like addresses the people and they vote but there's people do not deliberate so that's one of the big differences between democracy and republics and i want to ask -- most of our speakers later about how we build -- how we build the skillet of deliberations because it is a skill. for the greek the a few democracy plus that it was enough for citizens of athens to take part in the course take part in the assembly in the council chambers but that was

civic education in itself but i don't think we believe that anymore and it doesn't really work. it works well for a small democracy like athens 20,000, 20,000 people, citizens. but doesn't work in large scale republic such as ours another question. italian tradition of y republics self-governing city republics back five industries that begins with the 12th century and continues into the 16th century. it has a very rich tradition of the question on, of course, to add the figure of unknown for the modern world but i assure you much more in harmony with civic citizen of the renaissance. and i will add footnote that's

christian civic humanism it is not monarchy but christian civic humanism and a real voice of the -- of civic a very elaborate discussion of how you educate a -- a republic so that it can govern itself. and so i'm pushing the idea that we should look at the whole range of italian republic thought and not just mark because tengdz to be the place holder for the italian renaissance course of history political theory you d you do play aristotle may be if you're lucky -- glance on law and do and what happened in between and what was in between with the tradition which is very rich and so -- i just bring out two points about civic tradition and i will stop and we'll have our discussion. one is the great emphasis on eloquence.

right this is the real backbone of this, human tradition, in italy it makes its way into the universities through through the rhetoric and what they're teaching is leadership. and they're looking back to sisro they believe the model for the statesman should be that. the good man skilled and speaking can tell you later puts it and the idea here is that supreme eloquence comes from only from good man. act of speaking who can, you know, spend as it were and you get people to -- to change their minds but the real leaders someone who has impressive moralúm■e character d can speak well and that's how you get a society to change itself.

so this is thing that i found rather absent in modern discussions i've read about -- civic education, and maybe i'm wrong and i just haven't read enough but i think this is tremendously important to our society. to have this -- renaissance notion of the charismatic speaker and charisma isma gone -- comes from virtue itself in parts of charisma and then if you combine that with eloquence not just rhetoric but rather nasty term but we always combine word rhetoric with empty with empty rhetoric today but talk about eloquence speaking out -- so the idea is that i a -- man of high character whonows how to speak well, that can change society. and i think that's something that we really need to recover in our civic education. andfq want

to raise -- put my glasses on again. all right there is a question of prudence prudence comes from. we'reractical or the greek word right -- i the -- the idea t basically comes from the study of historyy history. and there's a tradition which is recently been described in a book that is not received as much attention as it should. i refuseong liberty last year. hungarian political science and on the history of prudence at the teaching of prudence as a virtue from a time renaissance et cetera a whole tradition completely forgotten about how to teach practical wiz doll to political lders and that is

tradition for -- the second if it goes -- that you review you're asked the question you say shall we go to war? leak to go to war -- you're the counsel a chief counsel or republican counsel asking questions should weo war so the -- immediately raise and pull out the war and start arguing about basic war. but humanist argue on history. they want to see who, you know, who what other situations and history have people a good idea or not so you have a whole history of peopl this parr situation. and then they come up with■ a -- prudence situation which is not a logical operation it is a operation of judgment comparing

different forms different historical experiences and this is -- from -- [inaudible converseatio] lipsuoy father of the united states if you read federalist papers it is full of history and it is full of the authors of the federall estate will meditate on whether we can do this whether we really want to have a republic. right whether the republicans options on the table yo if we make the mark. right there are options on the table. about the republic now we get to the discussion so what are the big worries that the --

historically most successful ones were small. even the republics that on the mediterranean started small and great question as a -- empire was can we still be a republic now that we are empire aand ask this question who deey attached to the republican tradition so in the end that i'm sorry but you know, if you're going concur -- run the mediterranean you cannot be a republic. republic is -- the republican process is not going to work. in an empire so a question of scale that is a big question and the republic. so let me into -- and i think that that is a question we can think about is how we have republican processes in large republic.

by the founding a republic so te anti-federalist said no -- republic over 15 states that's just notoi work we can have a republican in massachusetts we canpublic and e republic in the entire country you can't get people together and deliberate -- so that's a question i want to pose to the panel first of all is how do you have republican deliberation in 50 states in a country that has, that has a majorund the world. and how can that -- how can we debate those things and -- this is a way that you have civic education who are teaching through theach --

the deliberation and keep republican deliberation howow do you teach that what's the -- what would be talking here about translating our aspirations wh l curricula. so how do you do that? how do you teach the deliberation to young people in a program on education? let me answer your first question about how -- can we have a democracy when we're so big? one of the things that we examined in our book is what we call challenge of w scale whichs essentially what you were talking about. and we realized that the challenge of scale was kind of a doub edged sword. the first part is the one that you were t■gouching on jim which is essentially, you know, would you get really hard to deliberate together, of course, founding fathers compromise was calledhe federalist system which, you know, was i think pretty clever at the time although -- you know, wrestling with it now.

but the second part of it is that in a world where you've got increasingly large enemies who are not managing themselves in any sense the word democratically quite the opposite. if you ignore propaganda of north korea for example says it is a democracy but -- in all s you have these -- hugege nations nuclear weapons l sorts of technology to harm us, and you know lots of people say we should just downsize, you know we should break ourselves up. you know, that very dangerous right now to do that. so i think that we h answer to r question. and the other thing i would say is -- that i think in many waysit all of the different new media that is gone on, we are essentially de facto deliberating all over the placee news.

we are deliberating on tiktok. we are deliberating in all of these -- you know, in all of these social media outlets where people who are having frustrated they can't get their message through to those damn people in congres they write, you know, 78 line tirades about abortion or gun control or ukraine or whatever. so i think do is turn your challenge over -- upside down and say how do we make it happen? not, you know, we really keapght do it let's figure out some other way to make people f smarter or whatever and some are argued that there■'s a moment -- let'ss just have really smart people running democracy and things will bee fine. bui think that with technology and with our ability to manage, you know, large volumes of ideas and lots of other theaters we should figure out and we must

because we have to stay big if we're going to defend ourselves in this world. >> so i just say that -- key. so 40% of all americans get a four-year degree that's the way you reach people because they can discuss things on tiktok but it is not intelligent. so you've got to have -- programs general education programs like cornerstone and in which they get together and they talk but it is about something. it is about robotism orb something they have inn front of them which they can discuss together.ot i guess i won't go any further than that. but i really worry about unintelligent conversations with no backing no evidence, no sources. and that goes on constantly and that's where we've got to say okay -- what are your -- [laughter] what is your evidence?

not conspiracy theory i hope. what's your evidence for this? >> yes. we've had this issue on the table about'v question of civic engagement and what has been done is -- my university anyway turned into political that's how it is understood that students are patted o involved in political activism personally i think o that they should be punished for -- for -- >> faculty. >> and the faculty for political activism they incredible opportunity and with most brilliant minds and out there -- you're intense, you're not studying incredible opportunities, and anywayhat's my -- but how can we build a -- moree: positive form of civic engagement in the university with -- we talk about the issue of we

want to create department and i think this is a good idea i understand this idea why it is necessary to have departments. with their own power of appointment and to create curriculum you have to create that. i agree with that but abandon te field where we can't abandon the field of general education. where is civic engagement how woulhat and how would your -- your great programs translating to -- >> so you he incentivize the faculty. in other words one of the -- speakers of the last panel said incentivize the public. that's the model you have to incentivize to teach general kowrgses so at perdue half of theireaching is contract, contractorring to teach in cornerstone for everybody in the liberal arts. so you could be an anthropology

or artry history or dplish and lf of your teaching is in cornerstone. and it's working because you bring in people andnd if they don't teach they can't teach at purdue if they don't teach in cornerstone and the one thing that every liberal arts faculty member has in their backg is that undergraduate degree that was broad, that tawghts them shakespeare if they can tap into that then i always tell them don't think about your graduate degree think about your undergraduate degree and the generalist and turn the students on. you have to -- and we can get into this discussion later. but you also have to teach in a. you d cannot lecture that's don. it's got to be active learning. and's it's got to be a --

learning process that gets them doing group activities all things that we know how to e chaotic right you go in and born you go in and say i'm going to put you in little groups to tear apart more zoo open ya right, that's exciting. you know how it's going to happen but they can do it. >> you know y've got to turn them on. >> let me just add again back to sort of the historica perspective -- if you take what melyda said and say why can't that go on in theaters around the world? you know, they're used to debating societies there are nonprofits. it was, you know, was poetic about how american democracy was learned in local halls and community associations. and you know, putnam written about all of that disappeared

well you know, again, on the one hand some of that is beginning to arise again. i also notice there's an interesting movement going on in the business that certain businesses are actually putting a civic education component into part of their corporate life their employees to understand some of these things with which they didn't in their university education and thenn there's also some of you may know about jim experiment of deliberative sort of circles of raicked americans to talk about particular issues -- prior a tolection. which were successful some people have to have a forcing device or some kind of support to institutionize that. so again with technology, with, you know, money from dylan melyda gaetz you know we could do more of had the will.

but i think we're only beginning to realize the value of that. certainly it has to happen in thehe universities and i totally agree with jim. i mean, all of these -- these protest and whatnot, one of the greatest, you know, punishments of those is the way they cut off the notion that reasoned discussion and debate is the way to -- to get people engaged in these, and you know, the demonstrators were basically saying you know that doesn't matter what's more important is ourly vision of justice and palestinian. well that cuts off what the university is supposed to do. exactly, and in the old republic you had demonstrations and violence like that, your republic had failed right because it was liberation that satisfied the needs in the republic.>> one thing i just learned very quickly is that the importance of i public speaking needs to be taught in universities at harvard university until 1955

you had to attacksi a public speaking course. that was a professor of rhetoric they have a professor to do it and who is now always a they had the poet department. but that is tremendously -- i think a great way to keep civic citizenship getting people to have a audience and speak and that's the way that all of us leaders in the century all learn from the columbian literature and those techs how they speak in public. that gets back c to what i wasu. i mean, if you peeled back assumption set■, under that, you know, herel at harvard and many otherk to 19th century you have a public requirement underline assums was this isui something that you ned to do not as a skill when you become a marketer. it will be helpful. but this is what do as a -- citizen in our society and we see that as part of our job.

to provide that, and we're going make j a requirement because we really think it is important. it is not an elective. especially from the audience. >> last question, yes. >> i can -- year be obedient and wait for the microphone i'm struck by this question of scale not the question of can civic discourse happen at the scale of 50 states but rather opposite direction that ties with this question of protest and so on. that is -- is it important forh the university to serve as a model for sif engagement within its own structure of governance and if that is important what's the fromom ject trajectory over

worse and what's the status? thoughts on that? my questio why is that help a question? yes it is i think important for universities to do that and again i'm not in the university anymore. but i --ga as i look across doesn't seem to be getting worse. in my mind because of what we see going on right now. that wouldd be my quick answer.d speak this afternoon -- about forming a faculty senate we've he ever in a faculty if i'm not a faculty but university wide senate. with universities and those i think are actually for at least making, keeping administration from making all of the secret decisions and then springing on the faculty. that's what they do now.

i absolutelyac agree that we hae to have more public deliberation about the -- what the university does. >> qhab what about contact -- advance contingent faculty is that --en is that for the crisis -- >> well, we -- purdue in our college of liberal arts have hired over a hundred new faculties in the last three years. the mass a majority are tenure trucks but we also do hire what you may call teaching track so they have a larger teaching load but they may get from assistant to associate to full. and ito see nothing wrong with this. especially if it relieves some of the teaching from others who the majority of their commitment

to the university is through graduateo getting and publishin. so it's a -- you know these are still a minority group these teaching track professors or clinical professors would be the other word. but they do help. you know, i'm talking about a university that's very large. so we have started doing that. ande again, you know, i hire a lot of these people and they're brilliant young ph.d. they deserve a job. i would rather have them doing 4-4 thaner teaching at mcdonald's so -- i don't see anything wrong with it and they getet promotion et d so forth. >> tenure was evented to protect the freedom of university teachers but it seems that -- it is a freedom that's not -- you saw university teachers as called the hurt of independent

mind there's faculty in these states but they're not making use of this. but i fear while that -- i think that it does have values still. but i wish that it has -- it produced its intended function of making people able to speak freely of their beliefs. >> well i think they >> sorry. [inaudible conversations] please -- >> chair of the board and pillar center i'm very interested mr. manville in i your comments about context being an important part of civic education. and i am struck by how little used the ceremony is as civic it is a metaphor for

what we have and what we must convey, and carefully planned. working closely with the federal district court and with uscis, programs can be planned that provide students adults, citizens, with a powerful reminder of what we have and who we can be. >> you imagine if every university someday said in addition to your application to us, you will have an interview with one of our staffs on the material that is covered in naturalization handbook? >> requirement that

university agree you must attend a naturalization ceremony? >> that would be fine too. i mean, yeah. [inaudible conversations] sy interesting panel i've got a question for professor -- descrn of the cornerstone program which was quite inspiring. and i'm wondering if you can speak to something that very simple thing that i find myself wrestling with. which is about books -- versus excerpts, so i started my career teaching at the university of chicago we taught whole books. completion of an argument is what we were teaching i find that increasingly hard to do, as i just imagine still to teach whole books? and if not, what precisely is the sort of learning success in contt're not teaching whole book?

>> so -- you know it depends on the book butds if it is pride and prejude you have to teach the whole thing andu have 1984 pride and prejudice we do teach the whole book, but i warn three weeks -- because they can read about 35 pages per class that's about it. and we do a lot of leading with them. this is something likeullifies them then we will take bits and certain chapters and read it with them. they always say that hobbs is leading another language so you have to do a lot of reading with them in class. but -- let me say this. i usually say to the faculty teaching transformative tex you probably not going to be able te 15 weeks that would include short story poetry we have to have a diversity of generas right, but -- they're slow leaders, and when i

started tch you knew you're goio have to teach them how to write and speak but not to teach them how to read now you have to teach them how to read. >> from dallas on the board of smu and i'm just wondering how youon could change the nature of student activism by changing admissions process? niversities have the students they were looking for these last couple of years. so what can you do in the admission process as faculty tol change that? is not the stiewpghts it is not the students to the faculty. let's just admit that that's what you're going to have to change if you want to change the -- the institutions of higher education -- the students are just mimicking what they've already learned. >> right on -- [laughter]

yes in the book. i'm sorry -- i can't identify -- >> i'm tom i'm at the hoover institution at stanford. and -- i'll pick up on thatoint but coming back to the point about how institutions are behaving and you mentioned, though, we do deliberation and tiktok ispectft deliberation but probing procla. >> what i was saying that's wherw, in a bad unguarded way. >> because it is not going on the way it should in other parts of our society. >> right. and i appreciat bringing up democracy lab there are plenty of models where that is happening. i doth think that we need to tae seriously -- wrote a really great article in which i think he universities ar

citizens talk about how universities undo all of the civic education i think they report to teach people when they act in undemocratic ways. now he's not and i'm not saying that universities are democracies. but they can actually provoke a civic imagination about what dery one of the -- realms that you described thrrm some form of assembly that was a reallye critical component of that. so i'm eager to hear what harvard is going to do and every university ought to look at itself to inspire civic imagination by engaging students and members of the university community in real deliberative processes around which they govern themselves that's the way that we get to t place without a boss. not completely without a boss beca i -- you know, there's a lot of based imagines that can be commissioned. people could come into the university and think of this as

ongoing i might be at some point drawn into a jury duty at which we're thinking about how should the university, should the university respond to crises? should we have a foreign policy? i think we would have a m nuanct with that than forming camp or going camping and saying to these things chanting things they were drawn into and have regular processes around distribution. so i very much appreciate if your comment about what can universities do? i think that in and of itself should be one of the most powerful forms of civic engagement that we have in higher education. >> you know just a quickly -- build on what you said it is very interesting i was -- i've t been watching a lot about the palestinian pro-palestinian demonstrations. and i agree completely with what you're saying but one of the thing when is they interview students when they so often say is you know, i really wanted to do this because i had a sense of

community. with other people who are thinking like i was. and it was, you know, it was liberating to be part of it. very few comments explaining about the actual situation and in israel's history and it was about -- i've got to be with other people that i really like and it was -- it was a great experience. which tells me that they're being starved from great experience off the sort -- >> yep. >> approval of one's own -- [inaudible conversations] for ane 21-year-old we have to d right here but let's thank the imagine again. [applause] on thursday c-span coverage of the 80th anniversary of d-day beguns in nma president biden is teat to speak see the speech live starting 6:30 a.m. eastern on c-span2 on our free mobile video app c-span

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