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>> this morning we are here to discuss the fiscal year 2025

budget request. i'd like to begin by thanking the chief and the service budget director for being with us this morning. thank you both. i look forward to hearing about the justification for the 6.5% increase requested over fiscal year 24 enacted appropriations. although may would be the start, we already have record-breaking wildfires as it is becoming all too common. a while it was still snowing, killing two people and destroying 130 homes all signs point to very active fire year and i know my colleagues from western states are on pins and needles watching what would devastate their communities. the committee has considered several bills that would support the response network from increasing use off technology fr the detections to integrate into local communities and volunteer firefighters into the efforts on federal land.

in the meantime, congress has tried to addressed the problem t the source by investing heavily in the reduction. between the bipartisan infrastructure law the services has giving. [inaudible] >> i'm so sorry. >> has been given about $12 billion on top of the annual appropriations. how they are implementing those historic investments as well as the proposed budget for the fisc year 2025. as i mentioned the bipartisan infrastructure law and the ira will add a significant extra boostrv to the budget around 30% extra for the first management each year. to be honest i am frustrated how little thesese investments have moved the needle on the agency's performance metrics.

to some of the performance metrics are encouraging for example the target for last year was■k■3 3.4 billion the agency's target is going down over the next two years so one of the issues i hope will explore how it is provided by those two bills the bipartisan infrastructure is enslaving trag better into on the ground action. the backdrop to the discussion is the c closures this year including six in my home state of west v had been especially volatile since the pandemic and we've heard a

number of reports however that long-standing sawmills are running out of nearby material and need of to haul them and from further away which is significant. it's also concerning to me about these is that the wildfire crisis strategy is dependent on the robust network that can process and as we heard at the hearing from theld commission ty are critical to pay for more complex treatments prescribed. if done right it can provide a return to the federal taxpayer and increase the industry partners. they piloted a transport project to salvage the burned timber and a ship it to the struggling

sawmills in wyoming. that makes all the sense in the world. we shouldn't just be letting it rot and i've said this so many times in this area congress canr the smalll diameter that often comes from the mitigation projects. in fact several of the provisions in the billing introduced with the ranking member the sequestration act would do just that however we simply cannot afford to lose all of our existing infrastructure where the market grows and i hopei that we will hear how the service can further expand on efforts like the transport project. lastly i know that the forestry often get the lion's share of attention. but i also want to highlight the tremendous role the national nal forest service plays when it comes to the outdoor recreation economy. last year the 159 million visitors to the point is to serve as lands generated billions in economic activity

and supported nearly 180,000 jobs. unfortunately the service has a deferred maintenance backlog of more than $7 billion including 5 billion and maintenance for roads alone. this should concern all of us. they don't just provide access but are vital for the communities perhaps even more concerning. as we approach the funding facilities maintenance that we provided. thank you again for being here today and i think i speak for all of us when i say we don't just want you to succeed but we need you to succeed. i look forward to hearing your perspective on these issues and your plans for the year ahead

and with that i will turn to the ranking member for his opening statement. >> thank you for holding today's hearing. g thank you for coming. i share your concerns. historic investments and failures to meet the targets that's what you've pointed out sides of the both aisle continue to point out a year after year. including the eight national forest helps sustain the way of life and support the local communities. is it the case all across the western forest states many challenges including wildfire, drought, insect and disease outbreaks and additional pressures as you mentioned from sawmill closures in 1976 the sawmills could process over 300 million each year. the forests were healthy and inproductive and according to te surface is the latest statistics the sawmills could not process just over 100 million so it goes from 300 million down to 100 million that is a two thirds drop in the capacity and now the

health of the national forests is poor and the risk is high and we don't make thingsr better ina way to manage the risks are going to keep growing at things are going to get worse so i look forward to hearing how they intend to hit the targets to address these critical challenges and i am pleased with some of the priorities in the budget.nd the funding to protect thero communities from catastropc paye wildfires. i do have concerns also about the budget though very years they've asked congress for more and more money and we've heard from both sides of the aisle that money has been granted. congress responded byli giving e agency billions of dollars of additional taxpayer dollars. since 2021, congress has given the agency more than 40 billion yet the forest service hasn't treated more acres were sold more timber. it's not expedited the review process for the forest

management projects. the question continues where have all the taxpayer dollars gone. ior acknowledge it faces enormos challenges as it combats wildfires yet despite having more money than ever, the agency has not done the work on the ground to address the crisis. inin fact the agency expects to treat fewer than it did last year this year and for the timber harvest levels to remain flat end f of the fiscal year 25 and this is unacceptable. in■x wyoming, sustainable timber harvest support the local communities and reduce wildfire risks and improve the forest health year f after year we find ourselves in the same situation and consistent supplies from the national forest service underminell our local sawmills. without a defendable he is dependably of the portables from the public lands family-owned otbusinesses cannot survive ande know it all kl in wyoming.

just last month the l enterprise is a family business had to announce layoffs.. this was a direct result of forest service decision to reduce timber harvest levels in the black hills national forest. the forest service is appended the lives of 50 hard-working employees and their families and the jeopardized jobs at the facilities and put at risk the health of the black hills the decision to reduce the timber sales program would reverse years of progress. without active management forest is going to returnet to the same condition that resulted in the wildfires into people killed. this is exactly what we were trying to avoid yet this forest service seems indifferent to the consequences of their own in action. thereth is an agreement on the committeehe of the forest servie is not meeting the challenges it confronts. they no longer safeguard and promote the forest health.

it's now managing the deterioration of the national forests. thece forest service must change course, must start managing in a serious and credible way. we know what works and we know what we need to do if the sector is willing to help get the work done. thank you mr. chairman. >> thank you, senator. >> ranking member and members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to testify today. head up we are grateful for your continued support. the president's budget aimed at the primary goals for us to modernize the management, to sustain investments critical to nvthe mission and to ensure equitable access and benefits to america. today i will share our progress as we put money to work to confront serious challenges. i will share how our work will continue to be a sound investment.

we direct 193 million and cross boundaries to assist states, tribes and communities and privatep landowners to keep millions of acres healthy andre productive. every american benefits directly or indirectly. together the lands provided basic needs for life, clean air and water and while they contribute to the energy production and support the local economies. national forests contribute mori than 410,000 jobs and a $44.3 million to the gross domestic product. to sustain productivity and health forests must be able to withstand the threats posed by wildfires, climate change, drought, insect and disease. we invest resources to ensure we do just that. for most we prioritize work to reduce wildfire risk, safeguard communities and create resilient

forests. in 22 we launched a ten year wildfire strategy and moved to implementia it. the appropriations coupled with of the historic bipartisan infrastructure law and inflation reduction act provided us the ex bold and strategic actions. we did just that and progressed to deliver on a promise to increase the pace and scale of the treatment. we are not just trading any acre but the right acres in the right places into the right scale. we focus efforts on the 21 priority landscapes within the highest risk. they account for roughly 80% of wildfire risk. these investments are paying dividends. experts reported that roughly $700 billion worth of housing and infrastructure are at risk within the priority landscapes and this includes $6.5 billion of municipal watersheds with drinking water to 12 million people. in the last two years we reduced the average risk to these assets

by 8% and reduce the risk to the infrastructure by 8% for housing and then also reduced the risk to watersheds by 12%. so what doesn? that mean? it means more than $175 million worth of homes were at risk and of the national forest lynx communities are at lower risk including the towns of cold springs. emily and socially vulnerable people are not blessed risk. half of the nation's forest lands and unlikely to burn at high intensity. we must remain on course and build on these gains and also invest in our firefighters. we recognize the urgency invested in the permanent and comprehensive pay increase to provide a livable wage and enhanced recruitment into stabilized retention and we must also improve housing conditions and provided better care for

firefighters and we look forward to l seeing an end to the repors of firefighters living in cars with these benefits and limited mental health car to address the crisis in firefighters we continue to take actions that support access and benefits from forests. visitor use, hunting and fishing, energy and development, forest products and livestock generate 69% of the contributions to the economy thanks to the direct funds we relieve some of the pressure from the 8.6 backlog. the budget requests 58 million to maintain critical recreation services with a focus on offering equitable opportunities. we are also making a difference in the urban environments. at the forest service and partners are planning and maintaining trees and cities and suburbs.s. a trees combat extreme heat and climate change and it also

improves access to nature. the 2025 budget returned -- funding to most programs. this includes forest products that are vital to sustain the communities. we know it's a critical component of the system. while we don't control markets we can support through the products and innovations which help modernize. while the current industry adapts they've taken strides to support the existing industry by investing $80 million the last three years by direct support and other manufacturingties. expanded baskets through the building timber transport program authorizing extensions and the contracts to prode decle demandth of the paper products. in closing we are fully committed to meeting the challenges before us with

resources that congress has provided and the people of america deserve nothing less than to see their money put to work for the benefit of all. thank you and i welcome questions. >> thank you. your budget indicates you've increased the size of the workforce by 3,000 since 2021. i understand you instituted a 30 day hiring pause for a non-fire staff to conduct a strategic assessment of the staffing and get a handle on the budget. so we would like to know what you came up with. >> we increased the workforce by 4,000 people and that was our plan from the beginning. we lost about 40% of the non-fire workforce over the last 20 years. >> how many were vacant for years and you filled the positions in an area to beef up where itee was needed? >> we did a number of things. we had to bring in a new skill set to complement the skills that we currently have, and we

looked up the trend of trend den this country and its things around working with partners, working with communities and so we also needed to add to the skills that people that know how to work with communities and how to bring people to the table to facilitate and convene meetings because what weee ultimately wat to do is share the decision space with local communities and so we had to invest in the skill sets. >> how much of the's is going to the bonuses for the employees? people you have on staff, much of that percentage of the money received going for that or actually hiring new people? >> no. we routinely provided the bonuses based at the end of the year so it was nothing extra with this money. >> if you g could give a breakdn on how they were contributing to the agency's mission, that would be helpful for the committee. second thing is since 2020, the amount of the land in need of manual reforestation has

increased by more than 260% due to wildfires and only 6% of the post wildfire planning needs are met annually. a growing at that rate. >> first, mr. chairman i want to say thanks for the plant act because t it is giving us the ability to lift the cap that we had on the reforestation does it increase the cost for the reforestation projects? i understand nothing gets reforested in those areas. can you do both simultaneously?

>> for context, we had a cap of about $30 million of reforestation. the problem that we have been having over the last 15 to 20 years is the number of acres burned has been increasing in do so on average you at about 500,000 acres per year and 100 to 200. >> it's an excellent question when we try to have large timbes we getge litigated on that and even many times you can

ballnd salvage at the same time. ess and the fact we are a public agency 300 million people can. our challenge is as we go through the litigation they begin to lose value because they are not worth purchasing after a period of time and dependent on where you are reducing the value, the challenge we have is how do we remove a lot of the timber in a quick way so the approach is to take small pieces of that and to do what we can to reduce the timber while it has value. >> 25 mills around a 25 shutdown this>> year year several of my

home state and west virginia. i know the reasons for the shutdown very but i'm concerned about the impact in the communities as well as the impact on carrying out the forest service management goal. what authorities do you have to ensure sufficient supply of the federal timber to give the sawmills ability to whether the volatility. >> we've been looking at the innovation in over the last two years we've invested $79 million specifically to the industry to help them transition while this is going on in the country. we basically have access to the market-driven conditions that they are responding to that has an impact on whether they are interested in a lot of the timber sales. when you look at the economy in and of itself it is moving away from p paper products so that hs a negative impact on some of those that produce ts material. when you look at the low value

type of matial, most of the facilities use the large commercial also a part of what we want to do is to help and work with industries to transition to have a more diversified portfolio if you will and look at some of the products and cross laminated timber, those are the type of technologies emerging but the infrastructure in general is not set up to view that an abundance and so we are trying to work with industries to transition and i think you're going to see some really interesting things come later this summer. i do think we are making the adjustment. >> thanks mr. chairman. 63 million acres are high risk of wildfire right now. the past year the agency treated fewer than 4 million of the 63 million acres. your agency plans this coming

year even less than that. a 63 million last time for a million, no less demint this year with a budget more and more money getting less and less. at this declining rate it's going to take the agency two decades to t treat all the high-risk areas in the national forest today but they will continue to grow. is this as credible a strategy with all the money that's been moved to the forest service a credible strategy to address the wildfire crisiss that congress s behind the efforts financially to help commit to get done? >> i think that we are at a crossroads of the country and i think part of it is in the last hundred years we measured the performance on acres treated. when youwh look at how the couny has t changed the last hundred years in existence, the number

one land use in the country is the interface development and so that's had an impact on the national forest because you havd a lot of communities are adjacent to end next to the national forest. so we have to ask ourselves and i would love to dig deeper into this you is that the acres treated and if our job is to protect from wildfires, we have to look at outcome based reporting rather than output based reporting and a combination of the two. so do we protect the community from the risk of wildfire? >> we haven't been doing a good job which seems to be a complete lack of emergency by the department in dealing with all of this. if y■ou don't like the results the new change the metrics. that's ridiculous.

>> it doesn't seem to be improving or seem to get better at all to say we are going to change the way the metric is is absolutely ridiculous. >> the shift reductionri that is product forest product facility. i understand that the owner did everything possible to avoid the layoffs. these are a direct result of the reductions to the timber sales for the national forest. what is the agency doing to remain in the black hills? .. labor

shortages. >> we are having a job shortage as a result of these decisions that have been made. commissioners from carbon county and johnson county, wyoming wrote a letter opposing the plan for old growth areas on our national forest. i ask unanimous consent to put this in the record. both counties asked to be made a cooperating agencies. these requests were made in january and february. when can they expect to receive a response? mr. moore: i'm not aware of what you are talking about but i will

get back with you on that. >> will you make these counties a cooperating agency? mr. moore: i can't say that. what do they mean a cooperating agency? and we want to dig into that and see specifically what they mean. a big c and little krmp. >> the forest service is drafting the old growth plan without state and local input and i have a bill that would stop the disastrous proposal. my final question, you talk about the abundance of low and no value material in our national forests. the agency data proposal. >> large diameter high-volume material in national forest. since congress has given massive infusion of taxpayer dollars how is it that below what they were six years ago in

2018. >> actually, senator, since 2002 we have seenn gradual increase n the amount of timber that's been removed as well as acres that's treated. i would say increase from 2002 all the way to 2023 so we are seeing slight increase over that period of time, not a decrease. >> last six years. >> all the way back to the 80's wherere -- >> go back to america wasn't discovered, america one harvesting anything. mr. chairman, my time is up. >> are you done? >> i'm done. >> chief moore, i think, i think the frustration you're hearing is that if you look at this panel here we are on the front lines and we all see innovative

opportunities to have a better response and that's what we want to see. we know it's going to burn down, well, that's what the predictions are because of dry conditions, why not harvest that, putss laminated timber and store carbon instead. so i think that's something everybody on this panel would agree but as senator barrasso said we are not moving fast enough to do that. i think we have list oric policies that need to shift and one needs to shift faster in small business administration program for stewardship contracts because the smaller mills are taking these invasion risks and they are saying we will do cross-laminated timber and we will do things but you're

not giving them the supply. what can we do to make sure that the small business program works and you actually give these mills a supply and they're not -- right now they're not getting that supply, they are barely hanging on. >> yeah, i would support sba set aside. i would like to point out different success in utah where you had a small logger and we wanted him to do his own marketing for material and while that forest has not cut a lot of timber traditionally, historically, they've gone from almostst no program to this went from one truck to nine trucks. they cannot keep -- >> great, i only have a few minutes so i have to get to other things. would you provide me with overlay map where we think our most highest risk pine forest

are going to burn down and show me where you're willing to put aside, set aside agreements in the pacific northwest, appreciate what you did int youl do for the pacific northwest. could you provide that to us? >> sure. >> senator cruz and i introduced fire ready nation bill to try to get more information out of noah because of weather forecast is critical. do you think the legislation could help you and becoming skaware of the risks with bettee science coordination with noa? >> yes, i do. we do include them we also want to have local and weather stations because of the local weather first that sometimes the

larger weather stations pick up. in that, additional types of equipment that would give on the ground people better information and realtime information before they begin to do a lot of -- >> well, this is what we need. we absolutely need this. we lost firefighters because in central part of our they had weather forecast in seattle over the ridge, over the mountains they are saying the something else. high volatility, and i need to ask you about wilderness areas. these are important aspects, were there prior to designations of wilderness, do you think that this should be prohibited in wilderness areas. >> senator, there's people on both sides of the issue. >> i'm asking you -- >> i can't give you an opinion until we reach out to the public. process of having being put o receive

comments back in january, we received 9,000 comments and is we are in the process of analyzing that before we move out with the final. >> what do you want people to do in wilderness areas? please support the climbing industry that is benefiting from wilderness, that's why we have it so people can go and enjoy it. thank you very much, chief moore.)ç >> senator lee. a term i'm not familiar with, what do you mean big sea versus little sea cooperating agency?

>> and there's a way to do that. the way to do that is to have a collaborative process with our publics, in particular elected officials and so we think that it is imperative that they be included at what's going on in their -- >> doesn't answer my question in any way. >> look, i've got limited time, maybe you canan respond in writing, i really do need to know what the difference is between big sea and lower stage cooperating agency, never heard of it before, not in any guidance documents or anything like that. look, i have too move on. just respond in that one to writing if you can. the draft plan for national forest proposes 122,780 acres of quote, unquote recommended wilderness. is it really concerning to me, congress passed the utah wilderness act in 1984, product

of a long retracted hard-fought compromise made by the city of utah and something that designated wilderness inance, assurance that no future utah wilderness designations will be made. appears to be ignoring this history and both the state and the individual county resource management plans applicable to that area. the only way we get healthy forest is by having flexibility to perform active management of the forest, turns out we've learned over the few days, that's terrible for forest health. what we areri dealing with throughout utah is patch work, patch work of designated wilderness, recommended wilderness and inventory roadless area that make active management a nightmare and frankly practically

unachievable. can you. how the wilderness recommendations were developed and why state and local county's input apparently disregarded completely in the preferred alternative? >> yeah, the forest supervisors is planning to meet with the county supervisors to cooperate on the forest plan issue. >> how did that go? >> it hasn't taken place yet. they are schedule today have a meeting to discuss this very issue that you're bringing up. >> after the draft plan was released. now, look, every single state official and county commissioner and the way the forest service manages for service land, all these local officials as for, is a real seat at the real table in

these important decisions that have to be made, stations that affect us, our local communities very directly, much more anybody else. we all want healthy forest and catastrophic wild fires but the consequences of bad policies hit some a lot more than others. for example, proposals, service appears into comanagement arrangements with tribes, but refuses to incorporate state and county comments into the planning process. if the forest service can enter comanagement arrangements -- >> senator, we do honor the county governments and we do work with themov same as we work with tribes. in fact, we probabl work more with the county governments than

we do tribes? >> code management? >> yeah, tribes -- we deal with them differently. i am not sure we are doing exactly what you're saying. >> i'm certain that you're not. i'm certain that you're not. 58.5 million in national forest service lands, national forest. is it 201 rule helped or hindered with wild fire mitigation efforts? >> i suppose that's going to

depend on your perspective, senator. i don't have a say. >> maybe regardless of what you do, describe it. >> a number of us on this committee worked really hard on the great american act that gave 25 years of extra funding to tackle the backlog and a number of public agencies including yours in places like recreation area, camp sites and the national recreation area we are now in year frfive, can your me what percentage of service funds in fiscal year '21 to '22

are under contract right now? >> senator, can i get you that information? >> can you get that for the record because i want to make sure we are seeing progress but we are well into that now and we want to make sure those funds make it to the ground because they really open up opportunities for local communities in terms of, in terms of economic opportunities that come with public land recreation. the wild land fire mitigation to management commission and the go found that there's not affordable availab and adequate house to go recruit or retain firefighters, something that you referenced in your testimony, you know, these are folks that families count on that protect them from these catastrophic wild fires. >> is the funding that you requested in this looking at coy

redoing and making necessary changes to many of the other barracks and houses. >> can you give us a full list of those. it is a cart before the house thing. if we don't have adequate housing we won't have the

firefighting force to deal with the challenges. mr. moore: i agree. >> the forest service was finalizing to repair the santa fe national forest that keeps them cattle from the preserve. what is the status. mr. moore: million dollars on construction of the fence and maintenance of the fence once it's done. >> is that contractually not the maintenance contract but the repair contract, has that been executed? mr. moore: we have a meeting set up with the park service and have an agreement in place but we have not signed off on that agreement. but the agreement would be on both the actual construction of the fence and the maintain abs

of the fence. >> this has been a long time coming and i would urge you and the director to figure this thing out, because it's a continual source of friction in the area. last week, the lincoln national forest sit down sitting bulls falls recreation, popular spot an hour from >> what's the forest service plan to get it reopen? >> yeah, so my information says that it's not closed even though there's some staffing challenges but the facility is open is alse needs. >> it's my understanding at least from what i heard from the public is that it's closed and we have to figure that out especially as we get into the summer season when demand is

particularly high that we maximize that facility. mr. moore: my information tells me they are ready for the memorial day weekend. >> that would be a pleasant surprise. let's work on that. >> senator murkowski. >> you were in front of the interior appropriations committee a month ago and you made a comment that resonated with me. you said i can tell you with certainty if we do not have a vibrant timber industry we will not make our forests resilient but it seems contradictory to the way -- [indiscernible] the forest service has shifted away from viable inventors and

pulled the rug out from the industry and we have talked about this a lot and abandoned the policy that secretary vilsack forced on them during the obama administration. so we have a timber industry that is practically nonexistent right now. and it speaks to your statement about it's impossible to have a healthy and resilient forest. so can you share with me other than research into end use forest products what is the forest service doing to help support the few remaining small mill operators that are located? the tongas. mr. moore: you know better than anyone the history of -- >> i have lived it.

mr. moore: i still stand by my statement without a vibrant timber industry -- >> what do i tell our small mill operators there? is there a future for them or pack up and let employees go elsewhere? mr. moore: there is a future there. how much of that is available to be harvested. >> largest national forest in the country. plenty of available timber but it's the supplies that don't result in anything for even the smallest of the small timber saw mills. mr. moore: we are guided by a lot of policies and regulations. >> and they are that t omp

ngas. let me shift to the southeast sustainable strategy. we are going to cut off timber and not be harvesting and not putting up available sales for timber but give you resources from the federal government. 25 million was the first traunch. and i had scud you last month about the funding that secretary vilsack had promised. he said again the $25 million is the first traunch. i asked for an update on additional funding. you shared it with me the same thing that secretary vilsack did, well, southeast has gotten funding. that is true. as i reminded everybody, this proposal his on southeast sustainable strategy was well before we even talked about

i.r.a. in fairness that does not count. that is not keeping the promise of secretary vilsack. you said you were going to double-check on the status ofhto expect. maybe that is part of our survive built strategy and getting some kind of support from additional sources of funding. [indiscernible]

this completes the dingell act. this is the result of several years of groundwork by the entire alaska delegation and working with the department of interior and forest service. i know you have worked on that, but i'm hoping you can get your commitment that forest service is going to with your office to advance this legislation and address this challenge. mr. moore: we are going to continue to work with you on that. >> senator hickenlooper.

>> thank you for being here, i appreciate your affection for our forest and commitment to it which i share. i want to reiterate and fixed bankers in various parts of the national forest and we have got a proposal in with the recreation that fixed anchors to remain in place. and i think we are going to get it reconciled. there are two sides to this i look at the cost to move fixed anchors and you have to go through every national park. it does president seem to make

that much sense. a strong sentiment that way throughout the senate. let me ask you a question about housing. many of the smaller towns across the west and to a certain extent are having housing issues and i think local communities have asked whether we can talk to the forest service about doing joint venture partnerships housing for employees of the forest service but also local teachers or nurses, people that are not compensated to afford housing where they live. is there an opportunity there? mr. moore: absolutely. this is a crisis facing americans and has an impact on the forest service. your own states has been on the white river national forest and we are looking at working with

the community to build homes in exchange for homes for our employees. that has set a tone that is starting to be spread across the nation to be creative in how we address this issue. but it's all of our issues and all of our communities' issues. i am glad to see where the communities are working together to fix this issue because at the end of the day and do not have employees, we cannot do the job you're asking us to do. >> we are all in it together and excellent example. i just want to brag about colorado being the innovator such as it is. i have had a chance to hold forth -- i have a fill could have call question, i was

governor for eight years and beginning of this phase of wildfires that were immense, enormous and they continue. people could argue back and forth we don't need to debate here the causes of the change in climate bu are increasing, the conditions and humidity and they are more frequent and worse. i was always puzzled and i spent a lot of time out in the control centers. we would spend enormous amounts of money and wind would change and the fire line would be. [indiscernible] almost like they have evil spirit. they come back in directions.

nothing that i could look at that gave me comfort every guyse money out of your budget but states are doing the same thing and might be need for better study and way ahead of me on this. i want the strategic planner here. mr. moore: i appreciate the question and fire is a complex. i oversaw a lot of the fire program and understand the changing conditions just creates a situation that becomes more volatile and predictable but amounts of research in the rocky mountain and developed different control points and

manage these fires differently where it isn't about overwhelming force the entire time but where do i usee and the ecological conditions to actually be able to take advantage of those. >> maybe i'll get my staff to reach out. i don't know if mr. moore wants to add anything to that. mr. moore: only thing i will add, what you will see different is the demand team structure and people to come into the tent to share information about local conditions. a lot of concern that sometimes the incident team doesn't have local knowledge and responding to that by including locals to share that local knowledge. >> thank you both for being

here. i have questions on the colorado river but put those into writing. i yield back to the chair. >> senator daines. >> fires continue to multiply across our country, many important forest management projects that would decrease wildfires have been halted by litigation. in fact, in montana alone, 300 million board feet is tied up by litigation. this stops the removal of hazardous fuels that are surrounding our communities and just the threat of legal action forces the forest service to spend additional time making projects bulletproof against litigation. there is a small project in montana where the forest service plans to harvest over a thousand

acres but spent 19 months from scoping to decision and create 183-paged environmental assessment. my bill that i have to fix the ninth circuit cottonwood decision that passed this committee last may would be crucial in preventing some of the litigation that is stopping wildfire mitigation work and i will continue to urge its passage in the full senate and it would be a huge help what to. it is critical that the fort service push forward with forest management projects. the forest service treated 4.3 million acres in fiscal 2023 with nearly half of those treatment acres being prescribed fire and rose acres nearly

three-quarters being done in the south. while it's goodness work being done across the country there are crisis landscapes in montana and across the west that need focused. the state of montana look on the state efforts more than tripled their acres treated from 2020 to 2023. at the same time, the forest service increased acres by about 34% and the state of montana tripled. we need the forest service to follow the lead we are seeing in montana and places greater emphasis and urgency. my question for you is why does the forest service fiscal year t

number of acres treated from fiscal year there is a lot there so i'll try and respond to it in its entirety. when you look at our budget now, a lot of our budget goes towards reduction and not timber reduction. when i look at the amount of timber that we are providing, we have seen a steady increase. we have seen an increase over the last 20 years of about 30% increase in timber. while that perception is out there that we are not producing timber, that is not accurate. when you look at what we are actually doing. more specifically to montana, i have gone out with the governor to visit, i think it was the basin creek watershed area there where you have a community there

that is threatened by wildfires and as a result what the state is doing we have done that to increase the watershed area. montana is our leader in good neighbor authority and using that authority. so we have a lot of work taking place in montana. montana is the most contiguous state in the country when it comes to forest type of products. you have a lot of that coming to bear there. but here again, i think that entire region,■ montana and idao are doing excellent work. >> thanks coming out to montana to spend time with our governor. the bigger question is why were the target decreased from 4.2 million to 4 million when we need more treatment?

your target decreased year after year. mr. moore: when i look at the 2025 -- >> at least my numbers show f.y.2024 it was million acres. hazardous fuel reduction and f.y.2025 is four million. why would it go down? mr. moore: i thought you met timber production. >> hazardous fuel reduction. mr. moore: and so -- >> why would you take it down? >> we have a lost and increase in costs. >> you think about it, if you are reducing hazardous fuel,

it's a way to preempt catastrophic wildfires which are expensive to fight once they begin. mr. moore: the question i was answering earlier that we have to talk about, what is the performance metric? is it protecting communities or watersheds that these communities depend on? if it is, those are more expensive to treat. and where we have been measured by the number of acres treed or treated, we have put ourselves doing random acts of restoration because of that metric output. while that is important, what we are finding is protecting communities and if you agree with that, then perhaps we need to look at outcomes based on the work we are doing. you have a lot of steep slopes we are trying to get to.

all of that is more expensive. and you do less work. >> thank you for that. i know you are balancing competing authorities but it's troubling at a time when we are seeing buildups of hazardous fuels and the target went down from 4.2 to 4 million. i raise that as a real concern when you investment to try to reduce the cost of catastrophic wildfires. you pay a lot more later. >> last year, our target was four million and we achieved 4.3 million and achieved more than what our target was. this year or 25, when you look at where the budget is going, we don't have the same level budget to do that amount of

work. >> i have to respect my colleagues' time. i'm over my time. thank you. thank you for always taking my calls when we need to say thank you for the great work you have been doing i want to begin by thanking you and your team at the forest service and more recently for your support in the expansion of both the versusmon you and national monument in southern california includes additional acreages in the west angeles national forest and i appreciate the partnership of working together and thank you for the support of who was with

the celebration on saturday. i want to turn to an issue that was testified that of federal firefighter pay. wood land firefighter together with senator sinema that the bin infrastructure laws. my question for you, the proposed budget for f.y.2025 provides 216 million ta pay increase for the firefighter work force how these pay increases compare to the pay increases. mr. moore: one of the biggest differences that the pay raise is in the bipartisan infrastructure bill doesn't allow that increase to be carried over into retirement.

and that's one of the biggest differences there. the other big difference between the two is our recruitment and retention improves with the permanent version of that as opposed to that temporary version of that that has been extended through the continuous resolution and we thank congress for extending it. we have a lot of nervous firefighters out there waiting to see if this is going to be permanent or not. and if by chance or not, we should expect to see a lot of firefighters leaving for better pay and better opportunities. >> general recruitment and retention issues across the work force and i understand it is acute. you answered my follow-up questions. would it be helpful to pass a permanent pay increase? i assume the answer is yes.

>> it would help the federal work force. >> on a different topic, recreation dos gov. a popular to book camp sites and reserve vehicle passes and with each of these transactions, a small reservation fee is charged. maybe the entirety of t bookinge benefit the public lands some of the money instead is funneled to the web site manager which has been reported to be $140 million in profits from 2018 to 2022. i think it's important we use though that balance conservation efforts with public access. i am concerned there is lack of transparency here around the fee structure for the web site.

what's the status of the recreational contract and what is the forest service doing to increase transparency of lottery camp site applications? mr. moore: in terms of that fee. i will provide that to >> i'll take that as a followup. and this was a topic of conversation in the subcommittee hearing yesterday with the park service and asked them to follow up what are the best practices they are considering to design an equitable reservation system including what may be needed from congress to improve outcomes. the point i was making one thing to build on access, and every new national park creates access for the american public. we know there is a gap in access

which communities of color visit the parks less and i want to make sure when there is a reservation system online and way people interface with it, it's a tool to help close the gap and not exacerbate that gap. up. thank you for your service. >> chief, good to have you here and thanks to both gentleman for scwoining us. we appreciate you and your work. and chief, we are working you to get out to north dakota to the national grass lands. are you working with us on get it done? mr. moore: it is june and i don't know the specific dates. >> they told us june 24, that week. we'll work with your staff.

and seeing our cowboys and energy producers and tourism officials. they appreciate it and will turn out to see you and have an opportunity to visit with you. we appreciate that. you have a travel management plan you are working on and goes to where you are identifying all your roads and access points out in the grasslands. will you commit to consulting with all relevant stakeholders as you work on that travel management plan? mr. moore: yes. >> and something we can talk about that as well. last year, we had deputy french out there. set a high bar for you. mr. moore: i told him to be on stand by to come with me. >> he actually did a great job and met with the folks.

as a result of that effort announced that additional really important, 1.7 million has been allocated. i want to know that you stand behind that and something we can talk about as well. mr. moore: yes. >> staffing needs and do you think you are making progress there? i bet that is a real issue as well. mr. moore: we are making some progress and our challenge and it's not something that a forest service issue but an issue in our community but we are struggling to come to some locations because of the cost of living. it's a challenge. >> it is. we really need folks out there in our part of the world. deferred maintenance we passed

the great american outdoors act to get deferred maintenance not only in the parks but on the national grasslands and other places as well. what steps -- two things i want to go at here. one are states putting money into this on a partnership basis with you all. and next thing i our joint chiefs program with the nrts. both our joint programs and trying to leverage your abilities. and that includes a lot of things. you are focused on the aspects and go to tourism and those kinds of things. our grazers and ranchers, cowboys out there, they need fencing and water lines and need dugouts, all these enhancements on the ground and senators were

talking about in terms of prescribed burns, all that kind of stuff. talk to me of the partnership with the state on those issues where we'll provide money to partner with you as well as the joint chiefs program which bennett and i have worked on legislatively here. mr. moore: good neighbor authority, that program has gr■on significantly with the states and locals. we were hoping that we would have some language in the farm bill that would treat the counties and tribes as the same as the states to keep the revenues in the counties and in the areas where it i believe that's in a version the farm bill as we go forward. i think that would make a large difference in the amount of work we're able to see on the ground. i think when you look at the

other piece there, in terms of the joint chiefs project, we just met with nrcs and approved, i think, 10 projects. so we do see a lot of value in the joint chiefs. it gives us an opportunity to more than anything work as one usda where we bring in a number of usda agencies together to do work across jurisdictional boundaries. we have been seeing a lot of value in that work, in that effort. >> and those are things again, i'll try to get our state ag commissioner out there as well. and finally, mr. chairman, i beg your indulgence. this is on behalf ba raws sewing her had one question he waned me to ask, so with your indulgence i'll do that. the e.p.a. revised its standard for particulate matter, 2.5 under the clean air act. so the concern is thath

standard will effectively prohibit prescribed fires, prescribed burns in the west. that's something we're obviously concerned about in the grasslandstoo. so under the standard will emissions from prescribed fires put communities in violation of the clean air act? mr. moore: how i would respond to that, senator is that we've got to make some choices. and if we do not allow prescribed fires to take place then wildfires are going to take place. while we argue and debate about the amount of particulate matter we, i think, need to have an honest conversation about what it is that we're trying to achieve and what are the lesser evils of this issue around fire. prescribed fires, i think, are necessary to take place. >> exactly. so does congress need to provide an exemption for prescribed

fires thirn clean air act, in your opinion? mr. moore: i think if congress did provide that, we would be satisfied. >> thanks again, for being here today and for your work. we appreciate it. mr. moore: thank you, senator. >> please pass along to senator barrasso there's bipartisan support for that. now turnover senator cortez. >> thank you. good to see you, thank you for being here, not that you had a choice but we appreciate you being here. over the past few year, the forest service along with other public land management agencies have seen considerable investment. the great american outdoors act. the bipartisan infrastructure act, the inflation reduction act and the wildfire strategy. at the same time the forest service has made an effort to recruit and hire new staff to do

the work from these major investments. i know this let me you an example. the national forest mostly in nevada i understand has the highest staffing levels you've had in decades. in 2022 and 2023 more permanent employees were hired than were lost to attrition which had not been the case in years. last year 69 new hiers were brought on board in nevada. i'm curious to hear your outlook for the future. unless congress enacts extensions, all of these authorities have an expiration date. yet the need, as you have been talking here today, for all of these initiatives, investments, still remains. so how do you see the work? what do you want us to we shoule focusing? mr. moore: first i want to acknowledge to congress that -- and to this committee how much we appreciate, you know, what we've been able to do with the

bill and funding. it's given us a chance to really hit the reset butttop in many ways. what you mentioned, the hum bold teyave. we had been steadily losing employees for the last 20 years. the amount of requests, the am of work continues to go up they feel amount of employees has gone down. we've been challenged on how we work with the public going forward. while we created a lot of great relationship through partners and community leaders, we needed to beef up just the basic bare bones of the organization. we'v. we lost 40% of our non-fire work force over the last 40 years. our idea was to bring back half of that an leverage the other half through partnerships. i'm happy to say last year, when we looked at partner cricks, they contributed about $970

million worth of value to work we do because of that leveraging. we have been able to bring employees back on board. and new we need to assess where we are with the number of employees because when we look at the attrition rate, i would like to think that people are happy in the forest service, they're in the leaving as rapidly as they used to. but there's a lot -- we don't have the attrition rate we normally had been having. we're having to do an assessment and see what kind of shifts do we need to make in the organization. that's where we are from an organizational standpoint. it's been refreshing to be able to bring new employee into the work force with new perspective, new ideas and to help us move into that next generation of natural resource management on our public lands. >> i have to tell you the men and women who work in the forest service in nevada that i know, they truly love the job and believe in the mission.

the biggest challenge is they're overworked at times and the understaffing issue. it's nice to see your focus is on addressing those issues. i'm going to ask you, you may not be able to answer today but if you could get back to me. last summer, storms associated with the tropical storm hillary swept through southern nevada, damaging communities and infrastructure. among the areas damaged was the spring mountain national recreation area. it is managed by the forest service. the damage caused to this area by floods forced closures of many areas, important for outdoor recreation. while much of that has reopened, i understand that some site mace stay closed for the foreseeable future either because it cannot be restored to as it was or not enough money is available. can you -- you may not be able to now but at some point in time can you speak to that and why -, your efforts to restore that

spring mountain area. mr. moore: yes, i'll get back with you on specifics about that specific area. i know generally when we have these types of things happen, a lot of times, i'm not saying it happened there, but a lot of times when those facilities were desieped they probably put facilities in places they probably never should have been. not that this is the case. so we'll look into the specifics of that to talk about why some facilities didn'tthen how do wey adding others in other locations that are more suitable. >> thank you, i look forward to that followup. thank you, mr. chairman. >> i want to take this opportunity to thank again our two witnesses. as the senator mentioned, you hawaii really had no choice but we thank you for being here and for this discussion. a little bit of housekeeping. members of the committee have until close of business tomorrow to submit additional questions for the record. and with that, the committee now stands adjourned. thank you very much.

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