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you do not need very sophisticated systems for lots of uavs in the air movement large-scale maneuvering is very erous. small quantities of soldiers and scenario an older tank which is pctrov with a flat flat armor is good enough. this is what we've seen over the past year or so since the release of her earlyn good enough to hang in there. try to take some ukrainian

territory. >> and maria critical the report highlights appeared how has russia been able to resupplyustrial powersim is russia able to sustain this given a year ago we were it's really struggling to find replacement >> much of t same way it's going to beat russia in that regard. but globalization has to offer with the vast border we still

the key components or conductors. their countries contribute to this or less turkeys very interested in rerouting. the products are going the components ang elsewhere near rus borders. h the sanctions. whenmportant difference is there quite careful they are very careful not to circumvent sanctions directly. with north kea will become a more important factor in this dynamic. this directly violates the sanc lose. we see the ballistic going straight from to russia. so it varies pretty irrationally in its new opportunities going

all over the world. foreign affairs of the other high-level russia officials traveling all the time at some point this stream of opportunities will shrink. and does not have as vast although nobody really knows for sure we can't imagine there are still land what they can produce. even in the to identify certain weaknesses example russia is not self sustainable and it comes to showing and in that regard it has been helpful. the key problem with the dynamic of the export controls.

everythe circumvent left and right. we for example see in the report in the last year created deliberately for this purpose. but two, to the extent this is the problemd to be targeting. so far it has not been very successful. having said tt it's an important area to an extent export controls additional costs on a rush isents russia and we are reciting some producers who are complaining about selling kremlin but there are components with consistently rising prices. it would note fair to say sanctions do not work at all but unfortunately we could do much,much

better. >> it is sort of like sanctions a way to think about whether they work or not are they areproviding sort of like a tax that is being put on russia supp chain. a transaction cost. ost worth the putting in place. let me bring you in for am curious for your and how you see orssia having responded since the war began infants defense industrial park at like airport so much. >> as my bright here. [laughter] a. i do hear people quoting from your report all the time. i think you've done a really excellent job outlining the problem with something as complex and intricate as this i find myself in agreement a lot for anyone else who has to write on the industrial base you set the tone very high from the beginning. in terms of where they are at and how i see this, i'm thinking a lot about

it is restoring a damaged unit or damage it minimally sufficient level combat capability. when we look out forces using bmp lawn we are really really old equipment. >> if it works it works it's not going to work as but there are using tm. they have thousands of them out and's the far that's really great for me too see other people out there in social media nerd out on these facilities in the s it's incredible the amount of tracking going on to them. i also think about this question what's going on base you highlight these themes in the sense of revealed preferences. they aren't maximizing what they haven't triple shifts bring in prisoners trying to fill the labor gaps as well as they can. they are they are increasing.

$ras plateaued you cannot create new space in factory unless you take it off line, or retool it with . but then you cannot be the war effort. or you take par in the factories for exports and lose of the factory dedicated right now to repairing have structural things cooked in. why they cannot turn the crank with the exception of expertise which is drones they are mnew factories we are seeing very dramatic increase in those capabilities. >> a lot of labor them. when it's interesting data point rushes industrial base is work in specific curse is considered harmful to their fertility.

it means you cannot be a works with certain kinds of related to jet fuel or anything like that. think about these choices they are making or not making. it's just like how they solve their manpower problem but we do not want to endlessly absently have to which we have done at once. we would prefer to offer expensive social benefits and entitlements and money. will recruit from violent felons. that is more stability we like that. there's a choice in the defense industrial base and not not sinking money at this time forcibly converting multiple civilian factories and defense firms. they have compelled labor more women.

arsenic on the battlefield and their defensive base. seems to me at least right now of a really important within next state armament program. here's a defense minister they were talking about. this 10 year rearmament program. that's on track at the new team is going changes. be very revealing for what they do next. with not tulip for wartime economy that similar and you to change how the society itured any war a

country engages and i hope it is short. it's hard to plan for something to be extended. sam,(< we see some of the challenges perhaustrial ramp-up. i mostly agree i think she outline by relatively competent bureaucrats tal about his performance andtand behind military performance of a new defense minister.

multi- civilian background. in the specific connections inlly serve. as asi maintain a rushes of russia's pressure on ukraine as well as to continue the russian president has tasked this new defense minister possible cooperationvilians and efforts in this war. it is important to consider how this new defense minister and hishisentourage going to perform when it comes to maintaining the pace and getting weapons and systems ou field. practices for a much faster ability to get weapons of systems into field.

it's a massive bureaucracy. there's a lot of corruption. that too has to be factored into this equation. it's really a mix. this competent people moving and there's an absolutely massive machine whicho adapt. darrell is right to facing especially with additional labor. after consider russia does not necessarily have to do that's good enough.ons and tactics are good enough to be considered as well."d drones specifically.

defense industrial complex cuts constantly evolving. that's all of them they figured out ways to crack the code that real issues when ito drones. they shown an ability to evolve and adapt mid waged wrong such which are flying under the russian name. such as its own and re- developments on som of these systems into more capable. when c tactical and most militariesare completely unprepared for tactical almost

one 100% capacity. most supply to the russian military come from volunteer committees. most are flown with great success actually come from civilian efforts as well but directly. it is a mix for the russian military stable development especially those with reconnaissance. on the other hand it relies on the civilian efforts. as we mentioned the defense minister of opening up the defense ministry concern some of the weapons using tticalms. all of those rely on important components. they are simple from chinese components that almost one 100% capacity. russia claims substituting some of the components achieving from

chin that goes for ukraine as well.there's no substitute=) russian government is industrial complex to come up with solutions to relight less and less on china. it's a difficult process even in peacetime this becomes even more difficult this is where russia's reliance china comes at a most crucial timetle bit deeper into russia's new defense minister. before going there l me maybe follow along with maybe a couple of other systems are seeing employed in the war with impacts the russian use of glide bombs as well as missile strikes against in particular ukraine's energy infrastructure in early

april.z] folks from the ukrainian minister of energy. the challenges are incredibly significant some of the four most experts on the impact of russian missiles and drore energy folks in ukraine are figuring out how to rebuild their energy infrastruct hunt does seem the war has ifted in some ways a ground war to russia having more impact more e i am curious how much is tied to production. we'll start with you and then go down the line very cocksure will speak about the operational impacts with that glide bombs getting longer rangetime goes on they are a huge problem for ukrainian forces operating positions on the ground command post, cities, villages. they're all being impacted progress glideo clarify are effectively older russian

munitions essentially dumb but then they attach a kit to it can glide to its target somewhat precise not as accurate as we would consider. >> that is right that is right. the rate at which they is gone up quite sharply in the last nine months i would sayn particular. it is a really big problem. as far as i c tell they're coming from that you have the authority to use weapons they dohave two attack except for a few in crimea. this is an ongoing challenge and prohibitive to strike russian aircraft the just returned. that is one issue. the energy grid is another ago for down to 15% capacity tbe since 2022 they continue to do it.

it is pretty methodical if you look at the strikes that just happened in the last few days they are again targeting ity. you cannot have factories populating supplying power cheer and industrial facing. if you don't have any power there's many folns if you're talking about the defense industry and populated areas of russian strategy. it does make life is so uncomfortable for civilians it's not livable they become refugees chaos put the pressure on the government to sue for peace that's where we are at right now in the ussia did not have supplementing these attacks on ukrainian energy grid. both. we'veloosing strike patterns become more and more complex complicated they're trying to adjust to the accreting air defense systems they are countering it as a catme cycles during fast and tight right now are seeing a lot

of adaptation in real-time. >> there is an exhausting population element works every time russian air force takes off it looks like it's going to do a strike everyone gets an alert that says take cover. if that is happening continuously could be hard for people. maria, sam how much of the russian defense industry ramping up allowing their missile production what russia could use these expensive missiles for targeting energy infrastructure as opposed to battlefield effects. >> oh quickly jump in given the statistics 80% was destroyed by the russian strikes. that gives the general picture.

my own friend and ukraine every time we are on a call come every time we talk to demonstrate how bad the situation is. even if i have to recommend ukraine for adjustments i am able to substitute for. some will be more qualified to comment buteneral it has been pointed out one of the key elements is the emeence of various types of drones some imported directly from china you can purchase them at amazon like a websites which is beencompiled into this chain of drones. each of them have a different purpose which ended up being quite efficient.

it seems russia and the society this is unfortunatelyussian side into being quite successfulbeen quitesuccessful in supplying drones. the built drones only 30,000 per that's all that volunteer efforts on the ground unfortunately. quick sam over to you. >> one of the more interesting when describing the other side's advantage. for example truck tactical drone using tactical numbers. what is come at least after our report and we do rely on ukrai assessments is that even if the russian civilian societies capable of manufacturing a staggering number of drones aed in combat. even if we take ukraine

manufactured monthly a lot of them are not going to stop birth for quality not going to fly out of the box right away. some will flight several kilometers and crash. both sides with ukrainian jamming everything including their own uavs is lots of qatar measures and the ability to fly drones for both sides including the pilots. russian civil society right now stepping up in a completely unprecedented effort this is done with private financing. sometimes with state and regi financing. again mostly on people's own dime. the large number of manufacturers comes down to a much smaller number. but tha be several thousand to several tens of thousands of drones use monthly is enough to maintain this what we are seeing right field.

we do have to acknowledge his unprecedented involvement but civil society. lots of volunteers somey auteur efforts as they are capable of mobilizing society and people across the country. in many cities and they are capable of delivering supplies r capable of assembling motorcycles, vehicles, cars, assembled medical kits, or clothing in and everything the soldiers nee on russian telegram channels are daily pleas for very specific set of equipment for which almost always includes medical supplies in chinese made helicopters add to the ability of the russian defense industry to manufacture larger more expensive systems and so what we have towar report is this a recognition a recognition a combination of commercial as well as military components are adding to the strain and strengthening the

russian military overall. >> let me turn to the shakeup at the russian defense ministry. ouch. there is a new defense minister when the finance economic seen this is a russia not focusing on defense industrial production preparing for a long war. others have highlighted maybe this is a shakeup that things are not going so well. another interpretation it's a beginning could not adjustand election is a time to start with a new what do you make of the transition shakeup whatever you want to call it at the russian defense ministry. what does this pretend for the future of the war effort? >> we learned a lot about their motivations or how they do

things. it is important to give a brief history. they're very close friende the friends that go and have barbecues out in the middle they'rese. a lot of enemies they extend to the defense industrial base in the oligarchs who also listen to and even annoyance within that military bloggers appears quite intense at times and within that uniform military itself i view moved him isaac recognition by the kremlin not working out anymore. he is my good still use him he was given a very good position. initially i have flashbacks he was a defense minister from 2008 until 2012 until he wasos corruption. he was outside it with a financial background part he was brought in as chief of general

staff to initiate a comprehensive reform to break a lot of china and break it quickly he was empowered to do this by the kremlin. complete top to bottom organization of russian military starting a new procurement program a lot of training programs for the personnel. he made enemies of quickly. bu people if they were not on board. we are talki gone. as part of force reductions. too close to the money, investing the corruption schemes and things like that he was involved in his own rruptione is when he ran into trouble. on russian tv the house getting rated there were bags of m this whole sordid business. i initially thought about he is an outsider. as an economist is an economic mind. bureaucrat that can understand every is going to happen underneath and within the general staff and the him. and he is not an outsider pretties been to moscow for a long time. he is ideological comes from

family of i understand why he was sufficiency. in this and that. inheriting is structure is incredibly resistant to people looking into financial flows. so i don't for he will do well to a point they are long-standingtween the people in the ministry of defense general staff. if someone comes in and starts a yanking on those chains and investigating the money that's when problems will happen. this is going to be an interesting experiment sprayed his personality type i do not know when particularly well. people who work for him in the past he's a corky economist. quirky economist. i'm trying tur how that leadership sells going to make sense for that mistry of defense. we will see what he does ago

th the state armament program for this is a long-range 10 year plan. you have tt money lined up for it. that will be the first thing. we'l he does. >> i want to bring you in. what do you think of the comment? has he said anything about what he's planning to doing? or are we just going to wait for the long term armaments? >> he said he wants to inc innovation. but there are powstructural problems at the lowest level of innovation plugged in who does not want to give up market share because every 20 year gig did get going with group x. i hear what he is saying and it's the right thing to say structural nitty-gritty where it's made i don't know. >> over to >> i will add the thought meyer in corruption most levels of

they on the grounds in the global commander are blaming the military corruption on lack on the lack of weapons lack of systems and overall bad state of affairs. can salvage the situation. but again he's going to be d machinery that's used to change. innovation presents itself as an opportunity for him. he is known of his more famous video clips that comes from a few years ago is talking to putin and is saying russian sector russian drone development components almostp to 90%. president putin acknowledges that and want something to be so that was then and this is now. the ministry of defense and the position of the defenin position.

all eyes will be on him. he's got very little room to make mistakes. he will be careful in how he selects certain and how he applies himself. have to deal with almost complete dominance the ministry of defense of procurement acquisition. he will have to deal with other massive enterprises which are doing their own thing for years. and do not necessarily want to change. what inore interesting elements from this war is how quickly russian soldiers are capable of adapting some of the by volunteers on a very small scale onvets having different levels of success they are capable ofting not just on aerial vehicles but on ground vehicle development. this runs counter to massive programs to build out different times reconnaissance and combat drones by the likes that likes and many other enterprises.

it is unclear what is going to do he know all eyes are on.he knows he is the center of attention so be careful of what kind of votes he chooses to rock. we'll turn it over to you. you are a long-time reader of the tea leaves but comes the russian elite. what do make of the shakeup we have just seen? what's i definitely agree especially the fact is an adjustment effort to fight corruption. of the original sense of the russian military. despite putin is a problem. i agree there's an interesting appointment. it looks fairly smart. it also looks like an some pointed out in a preparation for long-term. person who may not be extremely courageous someone would have not been at least

though every disappointment. another interesting development within the russian and one thing becomes very straightforward of app since the family nature. we see an increasing number who the daughter and will. recently with regards tospecifically and minister. a very highosition. and how they will deliver. but to me what it says is first of all and deliberate effort to make the system beyond putin we do not know who is going to be

the next successor. it's not going anywhere. but that is an effort sustainable. by replacing members with newcomers who are and insured by them belonging to the right netwk. to the right family. which to me as an is an investment in the long-term future. while we think of these people not being ideological i would people are meaning the same stages of ideas and western ideas that putin embraces. makes a point to incorporate them into the system. the system gets used to them and they get used to the it isn't producible over the long term the system is becoming increasing off.'s probably quite harsh to break through. unless you're likely to be putin's guard at some point.

his example has illustrated. exhibits part of the late soviet union. corrupt. one difference is remarkable. the we have seen that deste that was aimed specifically at undermining the foundations of the system.aptation is quite successful. it's much more will constitute the threats of bppthe west. >> is a great way to run a t government. does not strike me vast appointment.

i could see a lot of bureaucracy and i am curious what is your take on this? is it resident minder for any changes that might be happening? >> is trying to think is who wouldof whowould complain about putin's niece survive. >> one year ago he left us attempt. hericular is interesting. putin has looked up for her and her husband for decades. i think they were given ownership of a coal mine that is pretty lucrative financially preceding governor which was a directpp she had a psychology degree from 90s. defenders of the fatherland phone a new organization could

since the start of the war that allegedly to help russian veterans get their benefits and reintegrate back into society bu that is what it is nominally supposed to do for the efficacy of t particularly well-funded to do that humongous task.v< been set up in every region. and medical professionals and reach out to different groups to russia internationally to understand the challenges ptsd and put her in charge and change tone a events not downplaying them. show. some region's affective summits not based on the people working there. to be elevated from that with the deputy defense minister position to important signal.

russian when they want to admit it or not they do have a coming home when these men are demobilized. putting that niece in the job as this is important. also jobs for family. this is nepotism its. it is a signal how to read it reintegrate veterans make sure and put them in eight mercenary pipelinea mercenary pipelinein africa or something. quick summary thoughts on that before we return here? >> i agree peers very good assessment. i do not know enough about e of the cadres with newer cadres. the highest levels of power in the kremlin.

represents part of that trend. it's a way to see right now. >> let's turn to north korea. to kick off the conversation.putin did a trip window half a century of russian action on nonproliferation. and it really sort of engagingn a way we have not seen in the very long# what does this say about then war effort? as a russia just sort of desperate get more artillery? is this the user going to his dealer and get another re- up? how do you all perceive of this visit? what implications you take from it from russis war effort? correct through we start with you

and go toam and mar >> i am, quite an interesting trip. a lot of stalinist vibes from how they presentedha t poker faces much better when he went over it was a last year and pay some respects his poker face was very poor i did not want to be there. but that whatwhen it was needed and it was i've for 25% don't fire properly or don't fire at all. it came in a very critical point before mobilization had increased that reach for them. i had opportunity to help the "washington post" just today the story came out about a shipments that are ongoing from north korea into russia. their explosive cargo that's all we know it's a marked f the most dangerous are categories of shipping them across to russia there any where from artillery to rockets and

missiles a everything. other components going in as well. russia has very few partners north korea is one of them. guess. meeting versus meeting in north korea. very forward leaning not slouch back. what is your take on what this says about russia's current efforts?al shortages of artillery to match russia? what takeaways do you have from this visit it's avoiding sanctions for many decades. its military and of its systems into new fighting systems. i think that experience is

highly sought after by russia. i believe it last year russia and iran had a special meeting for their business people and said it russia does not have to relearn how to avoid sanctions. i cant experience. i think the same three separate rth korea. russia could learn a lot about sanctioned busingncartners. it is assured by china and a handful of other states. this experience for russia. apart of course from the fact ary is actually a legacy at soviet military systems for the north korean. >> what is your read for more of a foreign policy angle? does this mean essentially russia's first and only priority right now is its war effort?

that has become front and center and front of mine for everything that guiding her russian gauges globally progress war efforts, yes but againstat is the question we tend to focus on this and ukraine for understandable reasons. this sector with korea documents at this time they need military assistance guaranteed. it goes beyond just that. me russia is responding to the western assistance to ukraine by saying hey you are supporting theou that is important to me. i am going to do the sameems that's important to you which is south korea. that is one of the reasons why and a lot of concern that not support for ukraine by creating this alternative reliance. korea is range ballistic

missiles which has been identified onhe ground and in ukraine. this labor assistance in russia these days north korea visit to russia. to prove that their interventions. is going to be a major dealbreaker korea with the res some long t counter balancing of the west. but potential to create as much trouble as possible by. >> encourage our to look at some of water when the former experts on north korea has done this. he highlighted the potential to boomerang and a negative way for russia positively for that u.s. and south korea and japan and cementin relationship in the trilateral bond as well south korea potentially doing

more to support ukraine which is something they have perhaps in in. it's one of the ways this can not clear where china isn't pleased with the cooperation between russia and north korea to understand if china is kept in the loop. we will wait and see. >> for about half an hour left. we turned a little bit we are assessing frhe our own industrial production as well as europe. the pro- ukrainian side matching some of what we are seeing. we have highlighted gearing up and

r has been reinforced and now it's stopped. to the question did russia miss a moment, well, interesting for me to watch that were given to him bilization of the economy with mobilization of the 300,000 troo immediately committed them up and they the ukraine counteroffensive. this is what he is going to do. five it's his signature. so far they're able to calibrate lthe that they're getting they're getting a certain amount each month and losing a certain

amount, whatever the real numbers, 30,000 a month i don't believe in. but in terms of the effects on the ground, they are tightly but this is why you see them not being able to push the advantages despite having artillery the glide bombs and everything else. they as but they are not using their forces wisely, i'm not going to tell them how to do it but that's where they're at. >> so how do you things playing out on the front and maybe the role of aid and its >> i think it's important to knowledge that russia has capacity to wait out ukrainian capabilities and. has done so in 202020, 2023 and this year and can the same next year as well. as well as the combination of military and civilian equipment

to accomplish its many tactical goals, it is capable of doing so simply because there's no acquisition to anything that's down at the highest levels, something that we have to acknowledge, if that this was work conducted by society in the west, everything would be different by now but in russia things are done from the top and there's no real resista any, way shape and form to what the russian government wants and what the minister of defense is doing and so russia can continue to do the same and actually coinue to gain territory and even to exert certain ukraine forces. western aid is extremely important in this scenario. ble to hold back some of the russianks and advances by using aerial using those successful no substitute of using artillery shells once aid arrives it would give ukraine much neededity,

give them something to be stressed about at different front. we have to acknowledge once again that the ukrai is very large and forces are committed at different meaning, there are different parts of the front that exhibit weaknesses on both sides and it's important to get western aid so it can continue with pressure and respond to russiank with its ability -- >> i maybe wano where we see this war headed. marina, maybe i will start with you. but to pick up to the point that sam just mentioned about the kind of limited constraints on putin's ability to conduct war high tolerance for casualties s n support in the sense that we have credible numbers, as you mentioned though, the economy is running

hot, you'll see a debate inside of russia that will really not debate is not the right way angst that may develop with all the money in the defense industry but challenges on the curious how you see russia the kind of russian russian elite long-term support particularly if no, there are gains but no sort of, you know, structural strategic gains after another year of fight if we enter 2025 and kind of aim place. >> great question and i'm afraid we are learning about russian society as the one -- our expectation and forecast as we see the responses to have star, particularly at the start of the war many expected that we will see some sort of advance dynamic where the accumulation of losses of the casualties will

eventuallynto some sort of social resistance on the ground but despite that russian lossesqvhat the casualtyies by even, right we are talking about 15,000 total in afghanistan something like that. it still has not all convert today anything remotely close which suggests to me personally that the origin of the system most likely specified by analysts at the time in whichblems came from the economic problems, the fatigue with the s triggered by the casualties and the war loss in the system right now we see something entirely different where as we -- some have point out the response of the russian make team to the war actually resulted in quite unprecedented growth of theith the it's and i'm coming to that in a

sdually the situation has improved dramatically specifically for regions which tend to be the losers in the putin system. we military industry opens up and recruitsor in the regions traditional attempt to lag behind also the equipment was very quite successfully justed the original edition which was not so popular, targeting regions with employment and people receive a lot of money ine instances enough t push -- so with this dynamic, you know, given the value of the human rights, life in russia, i wouldot expect

social and there's more support for the war right now than it used to be several ago division of where things are going but it also suggest that -- t regime in the economy probably we have s major crisis including the lapse happened after the -- so did the russian revenues. this is when we the dynamics that we have beenmbling including lack of investment in the military industry, lack of support for the society payments to society eventual losses in the battlefield which will definitely convert in decreaseport of the war but unfortunately we are nowhere near yett clear to take away from this is for us to try and do better in targeting russia revenues. >> yeah, no, targeting russian

oil revenues is critical how is a big question, something that we will hopefully we will do work on. onon the one hand if you want global oil prices, the united states is largest priers, you are trying to take o 10% of the global market share.tactical innovations that we should be looking out for in ai or in the drone space or is this going to be sort basics with air power becoming a bigger player in the world. what are some of the things that you're looking out for in evolving battlefield or battle

sea, battle face and air in thesurviving landscape? >> well, i know russian side king at counteruas technology and there are a lot of companies complaininghe the russian state like they want to develop something we can implement it, so this is a priority effort for the russians and also for the well. in terms of game-changing nobody is looking for the silver bullet, what's going to solve it, and not don't look to long-range attacks to solve the problem. it has to be -- it has to be a strategy. you to define what itsfectry look like and marshal your resources in pursuit of that goal so i would like some kind of clarified on that point at least for the role that we play town.

wh moving forward through tend of this year and early intoext, russia is starting to emphasizecovery of vehicles on the ball field. maybe that will change now that more artillery shells but they are starting t realize that this is not infininfinite and your report highlights t only 20% new build. maybe 75 to 80% they do commit to a permanent change and they start building new factories and they really make that permanent investment to reconstitute the force as quickly as possible and pushing aside some some of the stability concerns that that they have, we are not there yet but

good to be vigilant. >> sam, over to you. >> the russian military is on the record for 3 distinct prioritiesnv number one using artificial intelligence for data analysis and understanding the battlefield situation. number two development of different types of uav's and aerial drones whether that ecologies from the civilian start-up community remains to be seen and finally developing counterbattery fires these are the 3 are actually we are seeing a lot of attention that aren't receiving funding but remains to be seen what russia's nearly large bureaucratic machine is going to implement that especially with a former at the top the entire structure and they wld b able to take control of the process which is are necessary to implement the technitiatives into the larger

military structure. >> let me little bit in that whether our -- whether we are sort of ramping up our production enough and by us i mean the kind of ingeneral supporters of ukraine u.s. europe, other around the world. the eu is actually meeting the end of this week, to discuss something called bonds borrowing money put the money to put down on contracts to ramp up certain production. they are unlikely to agree to that. but it strikes me that that's where we are still sort of falling short a bit on the kind of ramp-up on the u.s. side the supplemental my understan enables the 155-millimetertion of artillery, that's going to be ramping up. are we just sort of always russia is or are we lagging way far behind how do you see this in terms of -- if we just projt out that u.s. support and western support for ukraine will continue as is? >> we've ramped up a lot in terms of artillery rounds, we went from being dramatically far

behind to still trailing but you know not equalizing but geloser to it. and i think that's important. not just for us but f allies in europe as well, various german companies particularly forward-leaning in this regard like ryan and what does it give us, ting russians would like nothing more to convince us that the only way to fight the war and have it being escalitory, there's an entire style of war that the united states hone and improved and made pretty great and we are not using those capabilities because they are escalatory. i challenge not to let the russians channelize youeah, to your larger question, though, i would say there's a few areas a wake-up ago and still is

not with respect to air lobal shortage of them. patriot is a very good system. there are not enough patriots, we are talking about asking for intercepters from allies and partners to keep feeding defenses for ukraine. this is a huge problem. it's a problem because the united states isn't particularly well defended neither is nato.e of our partners in asia demand the middle east, this is -- >> sam, final thoughts from you? >> i think we should be listening to ukrainians a lot more. i think ukrainians know what they need and wan ukraines have been studying the russian threat very directly they actually have very important lessons/] militaries in the united states and so actually absorbing a lot structure, into our acquisition developing pipelines is going to be important to go forward.

>> great, well, i want to thank you all, we are going to have to leave it, we are time. but i think it's been aing conversation again. i want to highlight the paper. it's back in stock the state ofrussia's defenses industry after two years of the war to my coauthors nick and of course, sam, you can get it online at our website youan find everything that dera is putting out. sam thanks for joining us from florida, maria as if you like this conversation also please take your phone and where -- you listen to your podcast bring up subscribe to the russian roulette where we focus on topics like this. you can check out the staff podcast where we look at a lot of the issues involving european union and na nato summit coming up and we will be incr in hot washington in a few weeks. we will be doing lots of cove russian roulette

for that. thank you so much for tuning in. see you next time.tuesdaepect miformeruary mal d stat sfenate