political era designed by victimhood and perceived injustice. >> we can't talk about grievance today, we can't t about a grievance tomorrow without talking about social media and how it's great promise of connectedness became a gat curse of disconnectedness. we can't talk about grievance today without talking about the partisanship and how that has blosso a intensified into we can't talk about the failed litical leadership and the political climate right now in which m tells you not what you why shefor thee against their opponent and that they represent the sort of gauntlet of bulwark against total ruin. >> the age of grievance sunday night at 8 p.m. eastern on

c-span's q&a. u listen to q&a and all of our podcast on our free c-span now app. >> joi us now to discuss felony convictions and efforts to restore voting rights is neil, the cofounder and director of free vote. welcome. >> thank you. >> tells about your organization. why was it established? which the mission? >> so we started in 202a law prf unusual background, i make up oryour internet originally, a ad also an economist. so i workh in all kinds of different areas but take limited to the criminal leys in july 2020 i could've found sothinhat w kind of weird basically, the people of florida

have passed in 2018 2018 ot rs were voting rights for people with vastly convictions. that's 1.7 million people, 10% of the states voting age population. but it turned out, thisse back o this, that most of these people are not going n to be able to wh is that? it's because they owed fines and fees assia turns out that not oy did they all money but there were not being told how much they owed. so the state would send you have to payn$ t find in fees you owe but we really complicated system, with 67 t■ rouis company going does work differently and you can't vote unless you pay them off their weekend what that is.@ mistake and you vote and you actually owe the money he might be prosecuted for aew felony conviction, right? and so that really troubled me that regardless of political

much they owe.eul k that seems to be a very basic thing. i got together a lot of my colleagueses at georgetown wheri a professor come by law students, my phdntsnd volunteers and we started polling data. we poll data on about half a ll individuals across florida writing customized computer programs called web scrapers. we connected it fromne a differt of people whosources identified probably realize that they owed artner with the campaign legal center to send mailers to these individuals to infer that hey, you able to put you without you can't do so. even though you think, you can't do so. pay off fines and fees for people who are very small dollar amheyould read franchise and vote asth well. long story short, i'm aarcher sd measure the impact of our outreach.

we increase voter turnout by up to 26% among the population we help in florida. 's started, project that troubled was going on, and the problems in florida are throughout the nation and georgia which we could talk more where there collocated voting laws tng hundf thousands of individuals. >> host: and just so felony conviction and what are the typical sen >> guest: felony conviction can be, very wide range of thin3z basically anything if you end up in prison for one year or longer a potentially could that's a felony conviction. so, for example, former president trump, right, that is a felonyvi not receive a sentence of that life but that is aty. underbite that's a a felony conviction.

convictions. some felonies are very, very serious, andder. some mightan be disenfranc state law but all ofm can be disenfranchising. >> host: you talked about ors an example but it does vary across the country. why this causing so much confusion? >> guest: sstates generally control the qualifications of people who can vote and they control this iner of felony disenfranchisement. a lot of these laws by the way were passed during jim crow following the civil war. if you look at the legislative history, it's clear a lot of them were passed to disenfranchise newly emancipated black voters. over time that change, the loss have changed, some of them been laws and that's really therk of

problem here. it's very complicated toit figue out whether you cane a number of states. >> host:t: and how many amers are impacted by demograph, demographic in groups that are most impacted. >> guest: estimatesaú up to 5 million americans are affected. hundreds of thousands of individuals, for example, potentially in- alone who we haveid identified. in georgia in florida, and number ota acrs the country where this is potentially an issue. and the disproportiona, predominantly, people of caller, particularly black individuals. usually because most people who are convicted of cri are ma. that's kind of

demographic breakdown. >> host: and for people who ar w may be don't havehe a felony conviction on their record, explain why this is an important issue. why should people beq+ed? >> guest: so we pride ouelveon where their government. and faith in democratic institutions is waning right now. now. and when you haveanan system in which people are eligible to vote, one thing i want to emphasize is that millions of these individuals are eligible to vote but the systems complicated that they can't actually figure that out for ane with confidence. when you have a sys like that, that undermines democracy for all americans. it's something we should all care about because w in ble to vote has the ability to vote. that's ayhing we can

all hopefully get behind. >> host: we are talking with neel sukhatme, the director and cofounder of free our vote, an organization working to help restore voter rights to convicted felons. if you have a qiof you can start calling in now. alliance, republicans, 202-748-8001. democrats 20248-8000. independents people with a feloy conviction there's a line you, 202-748-8003. bit about fah by state. let's ta what some of those differenc when somebody is convicted for a felony. ten states felons lose a voting righ and for some crimes or require a governors pardon for

voting rights to be restored face an additional weighting period afterompletionuire aio rn be restored. 15 fons lose her voting rights during incarceration and for a perd of time after, typically while on parole and/or probation. voting rights are automatically restored afterhis time. former felons may also have to pay any outstanding fines, fees or restitutionefe the rights are restored. incarcerated and receive automatic upon release. two states plus the district of columbia, felons never lose the incarcerated. even and you talked a littleit bit about the challenges people face once they are out of prison and try figure out what they qualify for.

how states actually notify somebody of the status right off the bat? >> guest: i'm not sure of the t and that sort of is a moving target because many states are changingte ls as we speak. for example, i haver an washington sta ce their laws around 2020 or so -- iowa -- and washington, for example, notified someyou're being releae systems are l robust, right? in some states there's may when your release from prison if you can vote, and other states tt'it's s are really picking up and being very clear about. d t be fair, becausehe law is so collocated and a lot of the states, it becomes hard. you read that whole list■2 of le states. as i was listening to'm very familiar with it and it was

overwhelming because of so many different varis. ose are two different things. you can get into the detail of that. it's also funndthese are differf money that is a pic in som in some states your release from prison if you can vote. yet other states your probation can be extended if you owe money. money. so everything is interconnected. in some states you have to petition to be t able to get yor rights restored. and so it's this crazy patchwory patchwork of data because a lot of the stuff is not just at the level, that understates the problem. it's at the county a level becae counties in the united determine, have your records of your conviction. if■c■hkñ you wanted to determine

whether or not you can vote you sometimes have to counties vary greatly in the availabilif data and what they're providing individuals. t they may say go look online check your status, and you go there and does nothing online. w and of data. that's why free our vot r has stepped in because our specialty are in law and in data. we can help individuals figure out whether eligibility is in an ideal world we would not be necessary. this would be something the yr government or whoever would sort of take of. if we had a simple issue wld not be ann issue. >> host: you talked about the fact t i to get the status back. how long does takeir when somebody isn't aware of their status, they have to come to figure out whoo to and within have to do to get it back? so beginning to end his or an

average time for how long they can rights back to vote? >> guest: again i wish i could give a straightr in some states it's automatic. for example, in new york state when you released from prison you automatically gou rights ba. same thing in pennsylvania. in other jurisdictions, have toe your convictions expunged. so, for example, to the what the law is and illustrates how complex it is. in arizona if you have one felony conviction, then you can get your right to vote sort of restored at the end. if you have more tha oneapghou have to petition to be able to do that. and lest some of your convonna, which a case there's a your conviction amount. if you owe fines andding on the circumstances.

again that is the problem right there is is not a setr. once you figure out what's going on if there is a process to move for taking the relatively quick, but again that varies. >> host: we are talking with neel sukhatme, the cofounder and director of free our vote. we will start taking calls. we'll go on the independent line. good morning, mike. >> caller: good morning. me. i want to say first that i think if you're convicted felon you should get the right back to vote once you serve your me. but my question for you is about, do you see a differe based on the loss in state for voting rights for political parties that won the state? i just want to sayars.com.

>> guest: the question his politics are, like to what extent does politics matter i this. first of all free our vote we are a nonpartisan organization, i want make that clear. there is a correlation between,e regional than political. certain parts of the country, i mentioned a lot of t were passed during jim crow and segregation so it is disproportionately states but not uniformly southern states where the laws are me restrictive. so i don't know if it's directlo politics. i think there's probably a correlation, but this is an issue that people of allave gotn behind. for example, their libertariansg that's wrong. and organizations

that do the same thing. i think in some senses rights i. but i understand the question about politics. that's obviously always there. brought back in the spotlight because of former president trump's recent conviction. has there beenp been the reaction to his conviction and what's his status? >> guest: it can depends on what happens toe is incarcerated, then he will not be able he is incarcerated. in new york, and again this also gets complicated because inte t state laws come he's a resident of florida of conviction is in new york.ar as far as my understanding is concerned, when he is released from prison, he should be able to vote in florida. i think the governor of florida has suggested that'ss the case. he also sits on r,igs restoration board and indicated

he would restore rights for him. which is great for former ent trump but there is an million plus individuals in florida who are that opportunit, ou, on the republican line. good morning, tony, good rn i just wanted to say to mecca comics. i le did submit a notification in the mail saying i was eligible got . and the other, i want to the state of missouri only restore some of your rights. you still can't a firearm are you still can't work for the federal government unless you ter like seven years of being on parole or whatever it is. that's all he wanted to say you guys have a good day. >> guest: thank you, tony. free our vote hasn't been worked in misery but ibout your own pel

background and what -- missouris an important point that the issue of civil rights here not just about voting. it goes beyond that. tony mentioned the right to own a weapon, the right toor govern. in many states there are all kinds of other rights associated wiou conviction or whether you owe money. agai in florida if you owe money stemming from your felony conviction that can result in you not being able to drive a car, not b able to have a driver's license, which is obviously a problem if you're tryio and fees. >> host: where does your organization currently do work? are their efforts toy is in thee where you are not workingn right now, what other resources are available? >> guest: so we are working inis year in arizona where i

mentioned the laws are caws are. virginia is another state. we've been aclu in kansas. so chances has complicated laws. we are looking in texas and iny. pennsylvania is an interesting case because their laws are quite clear. are tensñ6 of thou, hundreds of thousands of individuals whorobation or parole there who actually can vote but they may not know that they can. if you googled it, can i put in? it's not like to get his clean clear answer. u through thick a lot of people don't know what their status is even in athe laws are relatively clear. >> host: a c coming in on twitter from■i he says, on onean they have

supposedly paid their debt to society. on the other hand, they still crimes, voting more than once, harvesting ballots, intimidating voters, legitimate vote know aut former felons who are looking to have the rights restored? of any evidence that people with pavictions are more likely to be able, more likely to commit the sorts of crimes that this individual is suggesting after individuals, ts is an important part of being a. you serve your time.ost want to vote when want to do so because he want to be part society can. they want that chance to be a on't think there's any evidence to suggest at least that i've seen they're more

likely to commit the sort of fraud that this individual is ut. >> host: what do we know about their participationn elections once they are allowed to again? >> guest: so participate at lower levels in genn but people with past folly felony convictions to vote. so, for example, in florida among the people that we help we were able to get over half of the individuals in the kind of subpopulation that helng tobl be able to vote in the election in 2020. and so they don'te in the same numbers but they definitely do vote in elens it's something they care about and actually do vote. >> host: let's hear from a ubng, kimberly.ver, colorado, on >> caller: as republican, i think as

an individual either one should have the right to vote re political status or their mistakes in the past. who, how can w someone else the right to deny someone to ipyste that they pay taxes in? i against a noncitizen voting elections. here is immigration a the ability for a noncitizenot in our elections. so if we are worried about safety and things likehahould he right to vote except for noncitizens. i'm sorry i'm redundauty to address more being passed for noncitizens to vote in our tion.

thank you. >> guest:,ou idea that all amers should befree our vote does notn citizens and voting rights, and there's debates and disputes and stuff like that abo t we are outside of that. our focus is on if you're an american citizen, if you have served your time,ighto vote. la, right? e cannot be so opaque that people are scared to voteauhe if they're actually able to do so. that's not bit of that after 2020. there were people convicted felons. they registered. what happened in those cases? >> guest: my understanding is none of those cases proceeded,

or they filed a criminal case in the actual legal standard is quite high. you have to have knowledge that you could vote and the measured vote come something to prove in a't necessarily matter. if you're potentially going t be charged with a crime, even if it's note proven, if i'm a persn with a past felony convictions i ting even if i'm doingrime for everything okay. i'm probably not going toit's jh the hassle. that goes to show the problem is even worse in that regard. it's like you could say the lawe have it right would not beyo wht necessarilye, right, or don't want the hassle from even trying to vote, which may b that may beoi the point for some people to say these people, let's scate.

i don't know. >> host: states have trying to update their loss. he talked about florida a of the challenges to states changingwh their laws to better accommodate people who have felony convictions and want to vote again? >> guest: i'm not there are challenges per se entrance of like legality. they're able to do that. iot of people. many people in ts country in the criminal legal system,ast just a mass of individuals i think makes any kind of change challenging but i think there's really nothing preventing states from say, for example, a simple rule would be if you're notqv c? then you don't have all these og extended? what fines or fees il?

it's a simple rule caddo nation whhi vote. some states have confidence that even if you're incarrad, during your incarceration you can vote. i don't see any of reasons why the system wouldn't be implementable. >> host: and there has been federal legislationon introduced legislation guaranteeing the right to vote for people with felony records. the inclusive democracy act, a couple of the provision included in that guarantees a right to vote in federal eriminal convicl entities to notify individuals who are convictednc on parole he the right to vote in federal elections if legislation like that were to be enacted what impact l would have come with yr organizat put

out ofi business for that reason because i tnk end goal, when you start on problems, the enclosed able to help these individuals. if that's the case then that's great. so yeah, i mea i other things wg ton organization going forward. as we are collecting informatioy convictions, there are a lot of ways in which these individuals could use help. i mention expungement. so if your criminal convictions expunged, that can make you eligible for jobs you otherwise wouldn't be able to hav were exn nonelection years is to s that e amounts of data we are collecting and waste of returnis of their lives,,y whether eligibility for benefits,he whether it's being able to get a a job, things le

that. so i think still in other things we could do but if the voting component is taken off the table, that's fine for me. >> host: has there been federal legislation previously this, and what happenedin with ? >> guest: there was the freedom to vote act i think it sled, and that was, did not go anywhere.if they could hn about restoring voting rights for people who were not incarcerated. song anywhere. i think partly because many times they are bundled with all sorts of other provisi if youhi focus in this provision you would find a lot of bipartisan support for restoring voting rights across the board. >> host: let's hear fromai in new jersey on the independent line. goodth morning, joe cic morning. i would like to say i agree with some of saying but i want to know how

but if you two cvictions? that you got arrested for and are put in jail. does he still think you should be able to vote? and howow many, let's see, let's see, how can i put it? like what crimes does he thank that you shouldn't be able to vote for no matter how many years you out of prison or what? and that's my question. give everybody a break, but as fang t records and everything, i don't think you should do that' because once thy did thecrime. why should you do away with it, okay?? thank you, thank you, thank you, joe. so i think you pointed out a couple of.■n many americans, right, are in they haven't been convicted of a crime yet. so they areo vote has been taken

away.ble to go as well. of them are not getting the chance, right, because if you're in jail you arewaitg trial, you have been convicted of anything. you many times focus on voting. that's one issue you highlighted. forhould be able to vote? i feel like that's not a decision that -- i feel like that's a decision that weual, you've been released from , part of being integrated back into society again is being able to vote in a democracy. so my view is that reg at leaste think a different w people say when you're incarcerated you can vote. i am saying at a minimum from p, society has set, we think acly be reintegrated into society because you are no longer going to be a threat or wve reason is, then at that point

you should bee able to get the. and it certainly come at a ated hoops you t have to jump through to figure out whether youanh# vote, and the states making a more complicated for you rather than making it simpler. >> host: do you know how many are what percentage of those with felony convictions try to get the voting rights restored? ue a car number. i think that it's, soo come in many states is tactically automatic once your released from prineople don't know about it. in a sense it's like if i don't know about it but but i havy right back, have i tried? you could have petitions, in certain states you can hav restored. there'ss thousands who do that but it's sort an order of magnitude, smaller than a problem. if the problem is in the something like that individuals who do this.

it's not been solved in that way. orid on independent line. in good morning. >> caller: my issue is my convid license, which my license was■wo it's like a double whammy on top of a whammy. so you cannotk? the conviction was in6. honestly, to be real with you, i was not fully aware of the fact that i had lost all my rights. with the way that they kind of did the sentencing that therng withheld and they was gog to do certain stuff. e. and honestly, i have voted. was, they answer my question was, they sent me myfnf3 voter id

been sent it ever since. so i'm like, how am i still o the voter rolls? is the systems right? i went to go bioweapon from a -- by a weapon. they sold me the weaní times. how was i able to pass a background check if i may convicted felon? mike, i honestly dt know that i was a convicted felon intel a w situation came h the police and thenhe were like home, we can't let you into. >> or because'r felon. when? %n 2006 you got a conviction for driving on a suense. so i'm in the clemency process right now trying to get my rights restored but seems like somee of the stuff should be automatic. shouldn't have to go through this. i'm still going through it. it's that over with yet.

i'm trying■g to wonder, will of the over with, can i vote in el? because i've been going throughp it's speedy. they can to their time doing it. >> guest: thank you for your story. hi,ly, i don't think that's an unusual story. you have your license suspended for whatever reason, for child ort qipaymts and then if you're in a place like florida have to drive toet anywhere. you drive on your suspended and you get a conviction. and eventually you lose your rit to vote, you lose all your civil rights and other ways andn stuff is happening what, 18 years you and is clear from his that the state doesn't know what's going on with these individuals as are letting them pass through background checks and say you're on the voter roll.

that goes to the system there and elsewhere is too complicated. it's getting in the way of people being able to live their lives, being able to vote, being able to dissipate and democracy. a simpler system where you arens like like this, not removing their civil for unrelated stuff. a lot of people who have the has nothing to do with driving. it has to do with owing money on a conviction that's completely unrelated to driving. it's not a publicaf issue in terms of this is an unsafe driver. it has to do with the fact decided this would be a good policy to suspend people suspend peoples driver's licenses if they owed money on a nv complexity and the best it creates for people in the system as a >> host: we have time for one last call. we will hear from tony in atlanta, georgia, on the democrat's line. good morning, tony.

>> caller: good morning, "washington journal." kiiggyback off the caller that was just talking about the system. first of all i think it' rd that before. you are a felon my question is how@ a felon andu arehinkinghat you serve your time and, thing is good with your use and i think about to start voting. so in order to you have to register. isn't something wrong withh the system? i guess what the previous calleh the system that you even allowed to register to vote?ll registered to vote. do you agree? i what can i do as a cize to pnt kin of

flaw in the system? >> guest: thank you, i absolutely agree that if the law says you shouldn't be able to vote, it shouldn't be vote in the first place. the truth of the matter is in at speaking with each other so they're not able to actually, the voter registration system and the criminal legal system don't talkogether. systems that track money that's been paid. that not all talking with eac cd system it's hard to detne to individual certificate whether they can vote and parse through the laws in the da themselves, which is not a good system. atsy goes back to we have to rely on organizations like free our vote to dt work for them, to help individuals to understand whether they can vot. that's what we are trying to do workingour vote.

on. in ann ideal worldot be an issue in the first place. l so that individuals can know whether they can and a state can who's eligible to vote as well. so that's been what we've been doing at free our vote. >> host: for people with ny convictions who want to find out whatir their status is orsi about restored their voting rights, what advice do you haves you can reach out to free our h we are not operating at allstate. >> we are very small starter. we've been working in a few states, but states like, , if you're in arizona or in georgia, virginia, kansas, texas, right, these are states in which we have been doing a lot of work. you can reach out to us,o at

free our vote.com. you can also view our website free our vote.com and check it out there. i think the sad truth is it's hard for uld an infrastructure for individuals to find that individualized n privileges we operate going state-by-state connecting these datet actuallyt proactive outh campaign, legal center to be ae to conduct this i reach rs for this year for this election.t: neel■e cofounder and director of free our vote. you can find their work online at freeourvote.comnd on x. thank you so much b us this morning. >> host: who thank you. ■&eport: -- she joins from congressional budget office.