valerie bauman is a journalist

of over two decades standing who s herself as less lois lane, more jimmy breslin. she is covered such disasters as katrina and the new york st outp and newsday. she currently f reporter. and inconceivable is her first book. she'll in conversation with kristal knight who you might seen as a commentator on msnbc or fox news. or you may have listened her as the host of the kristal knight podcast hosted by newsweek. she is a graduate of the howard unsi program. knight is also a political operative, founded totg nonprofit, organized tennessee. litics and prose union market valerie bauman and kristal

knight. good■v evening. hello. and before we get conversation, i know, valerie, you wanted give us a littled dog before we actually have our about the question and answers as well. you know, keep it short. just i think that was a great introduction. thank you so i just for little bit more background i was 38 in the middle of the pandemic. i realized i was out of time. it was now or now, four years later, i'm actually pregnant fiy d have a baby the way very soon. and it's just been a really long, strange journey and. i came across this just realized it was a story i had to tell.

so i'm going to read just a little bit legal aspects and this is from 11 of my bo. congratulations. you're a father. ená) arsenal couldn't have expected federal agents to appear at his door search his home, but in 2010. theristian version became the first ever private -- donor to be targeted for fda and, forcenter for biold research. and desist order and threatened dues prolific private year agents aps home on four separate occasions. e ia man made 328 narecipients with the intent to

get them time, his efforts had resulted in 40 bi number rose to at least 25 as trent continued donating throughout the federal enforcement. although he abstained sex. trent hadmonths and had been providing fresh --, primarily to lesbian couples free of charge. since 2006. seeber said that because tre prs through a bank or clinic and dn' extensive and quarantine of -- that allhe wasl laws and regulations governing yet wide evidence of even more

today, the fda has not gone after a sin dod to shut down personal operation ago. now that freelance -- donation y will soon need to grapple with how and it plans to regulate growing form of reproductive activity among private americans. trent's case, only served to raise an and legal question for the agency, which may be the reason no freelance donor has been targeted in the same way under. what circumstances can the government tell you not to person? tl regulations around donating a -- with a known donor aren't e man is a quote sexually intimate partner of the the government has no clear

became central in the proceedings in trent's case. in fact, silber asserted in that case the plain meaning of the words do require further explanation try. trent and others contend that having someone's -- in your body via artificial insemination qualifies them as a sexually intimate partner partner. and that continued exposure to pregnant pose no additional risk to the re■enor governing donation. this argument is key for trent all freelance -- donors, auecipnts who want work with a known -- donor but go through clinic, say, eaof back seat of a volkswagen, could also forgo the g and six month quarantine that woulderse be required prior to either ivf. this could also help elimi clinr

psychological, copies of the legal contracts, among other bureaucratic ies. trent's interpretation than is actually the law of the land in ia. meaning that state one home in 70sn intimate partner status for any given recipientunfortunately, fe trends assertions about partner were merely an effort to skirt the issue. and in 2012, he was ultimately on unless and so he complied with fda requirements anobed written permission from the agency. so ' there. all right. let's give her a round of applause. ashley. first, perspiring right? i'm like ten months pregnant, also that you're pregnant. so i want open up this conversation one by stating i wasinvitation interview you bece

one. i think i shared this with you backstage. i froze my pandemic and so is something that is so important tocare abo. and i never about the opportunity or of, you know, hag a -- t going through a bank or fli so this was a very, very interesting read. ook.hank you so mev but the first question that i love in the book, you talk about a number of different women, men who've gone through the process. whyedicate space in the book to talk about yourself? you could have just written thve else's different stories, but you your own story throughout the book. and that is so interesting as the backdrop of this entire story. that's a good question.

as a not really comfortable being part of the story. it's definitely i think the number one reason is i felt like i to be honest with the readers that to tell this without making it clear that i was passing judgments,participat and i also just felt ng perspective that my own story made sense as a naiv as i was exploring different aspects the world i elements thematically, whether it was legalencountering you kne among)"$■6■ ow, offensive thing. me that neatly fit into different chapters as i just went through my own chronology. so it really worked out very well for the writing process. in throughout the book, you

share with ts beginning of the book, share with us how you began this discovery ofó donate their --. and one of the ways and i went to the site you talk about facebook and■7 how facebook has been a catalyst for so things because it'sy of the first if not the first social media platform to it's the largest, but you you walk us through in the these fas you find say i'm willing to travel or i live in this region. and i just did a quick facebook search and i found area, but that never occurred possibility to me outside mediums■; like. how else have traditionally have women or folks who are trying to get pregnant found -- if not roug bank.

well, there's a lot ofthink thau found a lot of times in the seventies and eighties there a lot of lesbians who looked their gay male friends to help them get pregnant. the dawn from my research, the world of freelance in like the early mid 2000 on craigslist. right. and then also some of the yahoo! message boards or aol kind of message, bulletin boards and chat rooms, -- or say desperatey seeking. and you would have these anonymous transactions and lot of the men, the -- donors were ■# there just a recurring theme of men having formative sexual encounters with. you know, an older woman■'ma wam pregnant and then that suddenly was issue that had to be scratched. and they sought out these online

spaces where they that andkq and people, but also kind of fulfill some inner craving. right. and when you're talking about --, you talk about artificial and the difference between the. what are some of the things you were warned a woman? that's looking obviously even if she's going through a either a -- bank a nine traditional form, which is what the ok i■&discusse selection process. d writing characteristics. you talked lot about, youw, bquestions you would ask on the first date or on the first facee should be aware of that folks just, yo know, could be out here just really trying have sex and not being sincere about the

donation process? well, you know, i'm still actively involved in probably pd three or four timecomm osomebod, looking for a -- donor, i needt. number one, take your time. i mean, whether you're g through a bank or not. -- isn't -- isn't --. --. this is going to create a human being. the at you're getting comes from a real human being who has their own personality, that are g to be part of whatever human you raise. and slived urgency. and the at teswanting to be a m. but you can't rush tha online world of freelance -- donation, caus there. there are problematic men, there ñzare men with breeder breeding

fetishes. let's just say it. number one question is always, is your motivation, why are donating --? why do you want to do this? and i comfortable with that i don't always get is there are men who have aiological imperative to create more children than they can and they see and being able to do that. who just trying to produce dozens and dozens of. but they tnk, you know, is some way that i can get you an oconut there and j y humans living creature, you know, foth part has some biological imperative to rdulife. i don't know why we're on earth, but for 'e only

answer i can think of for me. and so i do. thesmewh it. but you have to really be careful. take your time, come up with yownof questions. what matters to you. and if you say blue eyes and blond hair, i'm worried, i think. yeah, we want certain physiological traits in our kids, but who this human being going to be are? they going to be a good person. are they going to be happy? you know, are they are they going tos inherently? and i was drawn to the world of freelance -- because i can find that out by interrogating a pejorative -- donor, a way you can't learn from a -- bank. right. that's that's so important. when you talk about freelance --. in boo tell story about a lesbian couple and this particular story stuckut to me because they they found a donor. they got pregnant. ey had the baby. and two years later, they broke up or they theyed. and it felt a little bit about

like it was about deception in that one of the women ended up donated the -- and she was able to somehow in a legalay get the her her former her former womanbirth certificate. what are the dangers in processes like that particularly for happen that you know maybe they fall in the person that t'e married to or the person that they're with and that they birth this child with. if they're not the conceiverhat. them that just felt it i felt for the womanhon winning side o. case of oklahoma. it's in the state court. i think it wld be handled differently, federal courts. but either way, want to protect

lesbian couple, even a heterosexual couple, ceusing dom a bank do a second parentadopti. that's the only way you protect yourself. that in this case that, jusvi wasn't. ■kso i lost my train of thought. there a little bit, but there aren't a lot of protections, and that's why io,k kind read the proportion that i read talking about the sexually intimate partner. if more the program and, acknowledge this adult, these two adults thg to be a -- donor to therecipie'o allow them to proceed as if the're sexually intimate partners, but not a father role. thenty and the security of the clinic is going to run their owc

testing, their own every possible -- analysis. so you have that protection. you're not just relying documents thatuy, you know, messaged you on facebook, but you also in writing this clinic viewed this person as a -- donor. they have a legal agreement that this this man is a -- protection. at this point in time, california■ó is only state that has made laws■z that actually protect people who do home and i interviewed debra wald in book theso think there's a lot k to be done in this are yeah. and speaking of the laws, particularly around debra you talk about or she rather advises it have some legal contract that is not just you, you know me, we're agreeing bu legal and to give me --.

you explained in the book all of that that she asked you. you weren't prepared answer at first because we don't think about that when we're naturally just thinking about conceiving. but talk to us a little bit about just the legal aspect and why important to have the legal u know the legal documents in place because peoplepeople's fed that piece of paper document is really for you your protection and also for yourchild. you have a notion of contracts that are actuaextrely controversial in the world of freelance --. a lot of theoncontracts becausef cases, the women have laus contt theirertyorchild support later d attacked. anecll will end up paying child support than women will d av sustoç because these men ae

producing so many kids they couldn't possiblyo after custody for all of them. right. but at the at the day, the laws are different in every state they're weak in most states as i said, other than california. but you want to talk to a lawyer and you people will print off ink that does the job but this is a case wherei paid $1,000 i'0 1500 in surrounding states. get a lawyer to do yourtr are. the other thing is, as deborah walls, the author of the california law, said, if you ha sex pregnant, congratulations. you're a father. at it bottom line. if you have sex with a -- r, ar. he is that he is the father s ak groups don't like to hear this. they don't like it. you know he comments deleted

get really angry comments from the men and theoder and they don't want it knownau a lot of these guys are just trying to have sexprec yourself legally py and family. wow. that's really good advice, ic going freelance -- donor route talk us a little bit as well. just about this movement for women or parents who are deciding that they want to be single. they're single parents by choicethi'th you coined it per the book. what is that process it really i guess investigator doing this as a ting this book, how have you uncovered how people are feeling■w particulare alonewell, my mind is kind of gg inons. think, you

know, the elephant in the health care in america is outrageously expensive. absolutely. there's ge for fertility. there. can afford. i mean, if i had where i am now expecting a baby next four years. if i had paid every you -- donation i mean i would have spentn extra $30,000 than i already did going ivf and other, you know, medicaid cycles and things. th other elements i want to talk abouts whe i am, i do consider myself, i'm going to be a solo mom by choice. planned as not my decision. i didn't choose to be 42 and not have a partner. i thought i was going to get the taikery else.

it didn't work out. but does mean i can'be build family? i can't accept and maybe some ■velements of that are selfish. but going this path pursue single motherhood in way where i could meet the donor my is has agreed and then meet at age 18. they■4 my kid will have more access and more information his ancestry than a+b lot people frm going through -- banks. and that was whyri it. i knew i'm to be a selfish. i want to become a mom and i'm not going to give my kid a way e best i can to make this an informed decision and then try and put him first. i love that and i don't think it's selfish. i think is your choice. it's your it's my own hang up. i don't project that on anybody me right. i mean because you're one of the things that you said to me ■ckstagon to freeze my eggs is

that■% from the man or my partner or whomever it was. and i put it back. i put myself back the driver's seat, andabout birthright. you're your chngosen to in the't about the■ fe of having a baby and it's about if i have a r á:and the thing that's so inspiring the way that you decid to docum stories. and even in the book you talk about free ygs, you talk about journey and the instance youw, got i think it was five eggs, but they weren't able make it to the embryo and going back and just e depressed. but your mom came and she lifey you needed to. go through the next ro■'s a cost

and there's a cost issue■w right because it costs to freeze your eggs. and then also, if it's not success. so how did you decide that i'm going to try again? because for people they would say, hey, i just wasted 15 or have it again to try again. talk to us a le about not only the strength to do it, factor, because there is that's a real thing. it's a real reality. the cost is is tremendous. i mean, i was fortunate that i have fertility coverage. there was a lot that wasn'7■vve i mean i spent tens of thousands dollars to get to this point i'm grateful for the coverage that that i have. as far going. i just i couldn't give up. and there is the risk of a

spoiler. there is a part in the book for and i needed to get someth care and treatment deal with inf d the fear i finally let myself never, ever have my dream come true and become a mom and have a child to and i think so many of usld of n through a bank or otherwise, h grief, whether it's grieving that lesbian partner can't contribute half thedonor whetheu would be married and having a so many different paths bring people to gameteion and usually those paths are lined with grief and it's amazing the

persevha emerges in the midst of the darkest moments of grief, i can't ex that's that's. but that's fair and that's helpful. so who's listening to this,bvioly an audience here and people are thinking about, should i take this path? this is something been thinking about what just wisdom or words advice that you would give to someone wh' partie freelance -- route? well, i think that, kno your tin choosing a donor matter whereyo. take your time making the ld say find your teammates. i was so fortunate to find a community here in washington d.c. a fellow aspiring single mothers by choice i edhe

wannabe mommies i'm now the last one of us to get pregnant and tal kidsf with people going through the same thing it's amazing how your best friend who has three kids isn't going to necessarily get it. that do' lovthem less or they love you less, but you need people who are in the fire with you to help you get through it and so i think having people on your side who understand when you can■í say, i really can't face another baby shower when it's been three years and i still am not and i el like a jerk and they are like, no, you're you're allowed to important s leigh i would say going back tog your donors knowr make sure you're asking the

questions. and it's reallyo, well, i want a baby curly hair better be over x feet tall. these aren't the things that matter. you're not going to love your kid more or less based on how ook. but i think you do want to have a kid who's going to be compatible, who you are and your familynd looking at things, evea -- bank looking about this persn does for a living and what their ■t are. so the best that you can, who we are as people, i so much more important than appearance and that's what i ry search. well, and i have to ask, because you're actively caring, how is this book really helped you■s 'e a month you're a month congratu. congratulations.

but how has this bee as been goh your ownre jey it's absolutely. been therapyt' so wonderful to have, you know, a focus, the distraction, you know i writing a book on on evenings and weekends is not easy, especiallyhen know so much of it is journalism. you have to interview people and talk to people. it really helped me kind of channel my energy and times when i probably would have into a pue floor feeling. sorry for myself. it w well, these are important emotions. i better write this down. i bettet this paper and take advantage of it while i can. it's grea and i really appreciate you for just na and like you said, how i begin this conversation sh all the other stories that ar ae book and for the journeyofisroc.

i want now turn to thence if thy questions. i'm sure fol because is such an interesting topic, but i'd lo 'e who has a ques valerie and about her process and about the book. hands. hi. ks so our story. for talk a little about how you came to to p■s ready to to takea singleu , hang a career all your passionsnd, then making real space for a baby on did you say how did you figure it out and how did you you? what was that process like?

that is a great question. i thifirst, i want to preface ts with, you know. i'm having a baby of my own, but that doesn't mean i that i hate i love men. i think men are great. i'm going to have a little boy who's going grow up to be a man. bui think i had been through so much with so many men, said, yes, i want to have kid with you. yes, we have a future. and it didn't happen. and then i said, i'm you know, i'm 38 in the middle of the pandemic. anso realized the way was, you see the m celebrity celebrities having babies at 42, 44, 45. what they don't llinto they do'a lot of.b t■ses■í eggs. they got donor eggs, which is fine. that's ath. but it misleading gynecologist r whole life trying not to get

pregnant and maybe your doctor will say do you want to have kidsthe end of the conversation. we are being failed by our medical community for, not talking to young womenut fertility and about preparing ourselves to make choices independent of men because i'm going to go off topic a little bit, but i feel we are in hookup culture. men are not as bound to partner om a be part of a family. i as a woman am hard. i want a family. and i just realized i can't sit around and wait for a man i was out of time and it just hit me. i think with the mortality of the pandemic all around, it's going to happen in this onyx. not ideal way. it's not going to happen at all. what i live with and what can i live with and i couldn't live with not being a mom. lly a decision out of necessity

necessity. so this is a question about the rdofngkpçdhe book. what section was the most difficfotothrough? write about who. that's a good think. the hardpa was. in the process of writing the book. i went through a loss. i had i had a miscarriage■v andi lost my baby and, um, that's when i ended up needing to get and actually it was a year later i thought i would be the first't i was supposed to be a mom, i lost it. and then having explore that ond

finally gotten a grip was really scary because i didn't want to go back to this dark, unstable and sake of my readers, i needed to be authentic and honest andv raw ad it was very scary those feelings again. so that was definitely the hardest part, i would say. and that' feels authentic. it doesn't feel so pie in the sky like you. based on one oe qu celebrity. and we see this culture baby at 50 and we're just like, oh, i can do that. money is different. and i didn't even think the donor eggs we were talking about donor --, but of them have so much access to assistance that the everyday just doesn't.

and writing this book or acly made me realize it's a possibility you/k■m are a living example anu walk us through so many examples k and the ups and downs right like the real so when you when you ask the question about what was the mosk about the■é misges something that a lot of women relate to. you have to try d again until you're successful. but that's also the joy in this process. and i think that's the joy in reading and actually seeing you in real the belly that■ there's there'sa happy ending. there is a happy ending. and yeah, i'm just and i'm so gr■@ am. and not everybody d that's that's the sad thing.

that i think just poetic thatca then, you know, a month later i'm expecting to have a baby so it's a big year for me and it're really unexpected, beautifay just havef over to fate sometimes and and accept that things are are not goin want. but maybe they are the way they should be. wise, very wise words are there are other questions or comments even about, okay, i see two hands. thank you. i'm curious, drole■b tt you had being a participant, also a challenges you had navigate pitfalls or? experience?

um, yeah. we'd love to get that. and another great question and t repeat, in case anybody didn't hear that, so how did i navigate t being a journalist and a participant? it was really difficult at first, but andtoughest part fors wanting to do of men who are one --onorbecause there are so many who are problematic, there are so many who arethere who arg dreams come true the way mine dreams have been made to come true. and there was a lotinteresting . and so i really had to challenge myself say, ooh, you know, this me when, you know, when when somebody tau

know, they don't even enjoy sexs me the willies. i't but i had to try and reallys part oe story, you know, my my editor at me lets know how you feel about that and that part s it also my journalistic bac helped me really open up. you know, one thing that struck about we need to realize a loted of these young men are -- donors, grew up i remember life before the internet. it came around when i was maybe nine. these without internet, without free access to easyknow, video games that make women's bodies look obsceneunre. and social media, which mas fon real life if all you is interacting pseudo world

and i think a lot of these men struggle with their masculinity know how to be men. women who have been wronged by men in the past toyoc that. but i would challenge us to hear th and if they are struggling in their you hear the word masculinity without the word■ñefore it, and that's unhealthy for society, my opinion. and so toear the how some of these older donors, more experienced donors woulde youngu can't treat women, that you can't behaveinsist every woman h you. found space where men could be men together. not, but sometimes there was happening and so i think because of my journalism

background to bring it back to your your question, i was able to push back being part of the story and these sometimes uncomfortable perspective then i hope i did justice representing in the book. bit. yeah there was on heres! have come across any bias from the medical process. mm. w i have an entire chapter whic. who was so insulting to me. i ended up switching i ended up switching il but, you know, he's snapped at me. they hoping to get five eggs. they only got three. and the wa■=y i fo was woke up from a and i had a post-it

noteh number three on it and it was circled and it made me think of when the guy broke up with carrie in sex ahee, this is how you communicate this to me and. when i finally got to talk to him, i said, why didn'u my expectations? you were telling me, you know, you were expecting five or six anh's ke, this is exactly what i expected. it's not my fault your eggs are old. and away question, his answer was, i haveye experience. it's like, congratulations. that's not the answer to my question. i tired of being talked down to aswoman. i am fortunate. i've covered a lot of health myself, i know how to work the system. but i'm so -- of having to just come unit kate with me like i'm an intelligent adult and like i ammy life to have my dream of, being a mother come

true. anywayit started as very persol journey for you, but at what point along there did you decide? was there a specific moment? you're like, there's a story here that needs to be told. that's than me. or like, what? what t specifically, not just fr your personal? it was soon as i came across the wordonation. i mean, i was going through these facebook pages them a lite bit before i actually jumped in. e conversations that were happening itinitially, i would r picture and say, i'm looking a -- dorli■j you tulsa and da da da da. and the do wld say did was as if she had no agency in deciding who her -- donor was. and they would get into these

little back and forth tiffs here first and it's like, this is not your decision, sir. and i just felt like this is nuts. till enough there that made me think this is a route i want to choose because my could have more access such a wd west. i was like, i got to tell this. takes me. so thank you good question. d speaking of wild west, a few of the sri that you've shared in the book. in one of your own wasout goingd going into a random bathroom and putting your legs up. and i mean, how how did you do that? i mean, you talked about getting on the metro, going 30 minutes out to meet a man and you guys you know andt matter if it was a holiday if it was raining, if it but he would consistently meet

you go into the men'syn restroo, come out, give you the --, and you would nt and. then you had this long ride back home into city. that ii mean have you like tha'a process and. you documented it in the book. so i'm just curious like what did that feel like? i'm going to get this freelance -- i'm meeting up almost like in a back alley, although it was in a back alley. but i'm et into the men's room. i'm going into the women's room. i'm ie train like. i'm going to get a coffeee, yeah, it wasn't easy. i tried to go through the clinic an and i went to that doctor patronizing thing and said, wi ? we can do all the testing here. and heai can't. you have to spend like 600 waits -- quarantined, which again goes back to thement of how do we define a sexually intimate

partner. its like if i've had this person's -- inside of me i think we're good, you but i in myead just had to think of it as clinical. is know this is a this is clinical. you know, i could be getting but i'm not. this is my option. and it was 's determination. you know, i still me that i did it and i can see how it's shocking and scandalizing. but but it w was only way i could see doing was still givgm. yeah. in in the pce how genetic testingcourse testing. d

it as a differentdlhe freelance option of -- or is this something normally throught if you're going bank? if you go through a -- bank, all the testg great, but one thinge han'he today is the huge problems and the testing that doesn't get done in -- theoretically they psychological testing. but you know there's a very famous case from the zyrtec bank where for years they let a guy donate --. he produced, i bve 33, 36 children that they know of■í an. it turned out he wasn'this musician. he wasand psychological he had he had a schizoaffective

produced this kid via a -- bank, which is supposed be safe, had various mental health problems so i think my research on the -- banks, i just more going and that's just one instance. and the other thing is, the -- banks, they have lobbied actively against any regulation to limitny how famile donated to and how many children produced. now, in the world of freelance --, you got high volume donors who are producing lot of kids, i was able to find a guy has helped ten families. he's done. there's a facebook groupn who he been can join and they want to have their half meet my kid and otr half siblings. that's to me. i know this person i feel like e element of trust but

question? yeah. well, i mean, i think what your what's sharing is difference going through a -- bank. the question a the genetic testing. the size but i think what you to through just you're not necessarily any more is that any more secure going a bank than doing it this freelance way example that you just shared helped families?. that's a more controlled you■ to the other women, they have access to meetiou int. whereas a bank donate up to twr three families or whatevethei regulations are. and i think that's the big ayor me, which is that this is a this is probaa optionh a bank bau o the that the medicl system is set up and, bee of■n

th even about doctor patronizing e officials just kit throughout process you know i don't know it's better i think don't condone it and i don't condemn it i think every prospective parent needs to make own decision about what's right for them. for a lot of people, the -- banks do feel safer and in some ways are for me it was if i have a prospective -- and i say i need you to take a new sti test, and they say, no, that's the end of the conversation. a lot women out there will hem and haw and they■& think he's gt those blue eyes. i'm going to i'm going to let this one slide my genetic testig and, did go through the clinic for tso and i had i had the firt thing you to do is gour . if you're a carrier for something it makes that very rea'm a carrier for spinal

muscular atrophy. no one in my family has ever had at.■ be a devastating disease. a lot of kids are born and die within the first couple of years and so there was no question i was goin to i was not going to work with a donor who wasn't willing to do the genetic but you do have donors both i a. so there's no guarantee. but how many married couples in the, you know, heteronormative normative, you know, tradition get genetic testing■b done all f them, you know, a lot of them know what they're getting into. rtain point, you've to find the balance that's right for got it. and i know we have maybe like wrap.ore minu so if there there's do we have ti'm getting the signal that we don't have time for. a last question, but valerie,

want to just say i want to close this out and just say i really appreciate you for taking the time to not only share this, the