+ae bauman is a journalist of over two decades standing who lane, more jimmy breslin. she is as katrina and the new york state legislature for outlets like ap and newsday. she currently for newsweek as an invest reporter. and inconceivable is her first book. she'll be in conversation with kristal knight who you might seen as a commentator on msnbc

or fox news. or you may have listened her as the host of the kristal knight sted by newsweek. she is a graduate of the howard university journal knight is also a political operative, founded the voting rightsnized tennessee. so please me in welcoming to politics and prose union market valerie bauman and kristal knight. good evening. hello. and before we gete, you wanted give us a little do a reading before we actually have our about the question and answers as well. you know, keep it just i think that was a great introduction. thank you soju for little bit more background i was 38 in the middle of the i realized i was out of time. it was now ornow, four years later, i'm actually pregnant finally and have a soon. and it's just been a really long, strange journey and.

i came across this world and i just realized it was a story i had to tell. g to read just a little bitut aspects this and this is from 11 of my book. congratulations. you're a father. trentouldn't have expected federal agents to appear at his door demanding to search his home, but in 2010. the self-described christian version became the first ever private --d for fda and, for biologics and research. seeb and desist order and threatened him with a $100,000 fine due to his prolific privatens that sameonat year agents appeared at his home on four separate occasions. the cali man made 328 donations to 46 recipients with the intent to get them pregnant time, his efforts had resulted in 40 births. the at least 25 as ttinued donating

throughout the federal enforcement. abstained sex. trent had every six months and had been providing fresh -- primarily to lesbian couples free ofsince 2006. seeber said that because trent failed tode his donations through a bank or clinic and hadn't had the expensive weekly testing and mandatory six month freeze in quarantine of -- that allcomplete. he was in violation of federal laws and donation of biological tissue,yet wide evidence of even more today, the fda has not gone after a single -- donor since trent was forced to shut down personal operation more tha ago. now that freelance -- donation is exploding the agency will soon need to grapple with how regulate growing form of reproductiveivate americans. sievers sole foray case, only served to raise an

agency, which may be the reason no freelance donor has been taeted in the same way under. what circumstances can the government tell you not to person? the fda is strictos -- with a known donor aren't re quote sexually intimate partner of the recipi the government has no clear a sexually intimate partner, an admission that became central in ths case. in fact, silber asserted in that case the plain meaning of the words do require further try. trent and others contend that in your body via artificial insemination partner partner. and that continued exposure to that per purposes of getting pregnant pose no additional risk to the recipient, nor w governing donation. trent all freelance -- donors, sowant work with a known -- donor but go through clinic, say

instead of thea volkswagen, could also forgo the and six month quarantine that would otherwieqd prior to either ivf. this could also help elimitsem clinics for psychological contracts among other bureaucratic interpretation than is actually the law of the lmeaning that state one home in 70 isn't achieved sexually intimate partner status for any given recipientunfortunately, fda held the trends assertions about how to define sexually intimate partner were merely an effort to skirt the and in 2012, he was ultimately from donating unless and so he complied with fda requirements and obtained written permission from the agency. so we'll stop there. all right. let's give her a round of applause. g right? i'm like ten months pregnantbasically. we also that you're pregnant. so i this conversation one by stating i was

invitation interview you i think i shared this with you backstage. i froze my so is something that is so important to me and that i really care about. and i never about the opportunity or e of, you know, having a through a bank or very interesting read. so thank you sobut the first question that i love to jure in the book, you talk about a number of different women, men who've gone through the process. why dedicate space in the book to talk about yourself? you could have just written thbook talking about everyone else's different stories, but you your own story throughout the book. and that is soesting as the backdrop of this entire question. as a comfortable being part of the story. it's definitely unfamiliar. me. i think the number one reason is i felt like i to be honest with the readers that to tell this

without making it clear that i was passing judgments,ons and actively participating in the world felt and i also just felt from aspective that my own story made sense as a narrative sp as i was exploring different aspects the world i came across different elements thematically, whether it was leg issues, you know, encountering you know, prejudice among donors disclosed, you know, offensive things. me different chapters as i just went through my own chronology. so it really worked out very well for the writing process. that's great. that's great. in throughout the book you share with this reallybeginning of the book, share with us how you began this discovery of finding men who wanted to donate their --. and one of the ways an i went to the site you talk about facebook and been a catalyst for so things because it's first if not the first social media platform to spin the longest. it's the largest, but you you walk us through in the going to these facebook groups

you findeoferent parts of the country who say i'm willing to travel or i live in n. and i just did a quick facebook search and i found here in the dmv area, but that never occurred outside mediums like. how else have traditionally have pregnant found -- if not bank. well, there's a lot of ways i mean, i think that that you found a lot of times in the seventies and eighties there a lot of lesbitheir gay male friends to help them get pregnant. research, the world of freelance -- was in like the early mid 2000 on craigslist. right. and then also some of the yahoo! message boards or aol kind of message, bulletin boards and chat rooms people either offer up their -- or say desperately seeking. and you would have these anonymous transactions and lot of the men, the -- donors were

drawn to this. there just a recurring theme of men having formative early sexual encounters with. you know, an older woman, woma wanted them to get them pregnant and then that suddenly ha to be scratched. and they sought out these online spaces where the could continue to pursue pursue that and and people, but also kind of fulfill some inner and when you're talking about people are donating their --, you talk about artificial insemination actual insemination and the difference between the. what are some of the things you were warned a woman? that's lookin's going through a either a --tional form, which is what the book is discussing worrying about the selection process. did a lot of writing characteristics. you talked lot about, you know,questions you would ask on the first date or on the first facwhat are things that people should be aware of that folks know, could be out here just really trying have sex

ot being sincere about the donation you know, i'm still actively involved in probably posted three or four times commen on somebody who you know, looking for a -- donor, week. number one, take your time. i mean, whether you're a bank or not. -- isn't -- isn't--. this is going to create a human being. real human being who has personality, that are q?g to be part of whatever human you raise. and i have lived urgency. and the at wanting to be pregnant, wanting to be a mom. but you can't rush online world of freelance -- donation, becathere. there are problematic men, there reeding fetishes. let's just say it. and so so i think fact, the number one question is always, is your motivation, why are donating --? why do you want to do this?

and 're the one that i'm most comfortable with that i don't there are men who have ate more children than they can and they see thi helping women and being able to do that. en who have a limit who just trying to produce dozens and dozens of.bu know, is some way that i can get y kid out there and just, y humans living creature, you know, for the mostpart has some biological imperative to reproduce, toe life. i don't know why we're on earth, but for me, tanswer i can think of for me. and so i do. it. but you have to really be careful. take your time, come up withyowhat matters to you. and if you say blue eyes and blond hair, i'm worried, i think. yeah, we want certain physiological traits in our kids, but who this human being going to be are? they going to be a good person. are they going to be happy?

you know, are they are they going to be curious inherently? and i was drawn to the world offreelance -- because i can find that out by interrogating a -- donor, a way you can't learn from a -- bank. that's that's so important. when you talk about freelance --. in the book, you tell story about a lesbian couple and this particular story stuck out to me because they they found a donor. they got pregnant. they had the baby. and two years later, they broke up or they they separated. and it felt a little bit about like it waou deception in that one of the women ended up the man who donated the to somehow in a legal way get the her her former her former woman partner's name off of the birth certificate. what are the dangers in processes like that particularly foram could happen that you know maybe they fall inand the person that they're married to or the personthat they birth this child with.

if they're not the conceive or that that could be a reality. them that just felt it f that that happened andt ky i felt for the womanth winning side of that equation. case of oklahoma. it's in the state court.differently, federal courts. but either way, want to protec short is if you are a lesbian couple, even a heterosexualusing donor -- that is not from a bank do a second parent adoption. that's the only way you protect yoursee judge felt that in this case that, just having irth certificate wasn't. so i lost my train of thought. there a little bit but there aren't a lot of protections, and th kind read the proportion that i read talking about the sexually intimate partner. if more and, acknowledge this adult, these two adul that person is going to be a -- donor to recipient and we're going to

allow them t sexually intimate partners, but not a father role. you have, first of all, the safety and the security of the clinic is going to rheun town genetic testing, their own every possible -- analysis. so you have that protection. you're not just relying documents that some some guy you know, messaged you on facebook, but you also in writing this clinic viewed this person as a -- donor. they have a legal agreement that this this man is a --onor and that would provide more protection. at this point in time, californiahas made laws that actually protect people who do home insemination. and i interviewed debra wald in book the so think there's a lot more work to be done in thisah. and speaking of the laws, particularly around rather advises it per book that you have some legal contract that is not just you you know me, we're agreeing you're going to give me --. but there's actually a legal and you explained in the book all of

the questions that that she asked you. you weren't prepared answer atrs don't think about that when we're naturally just thinking aboutiving. but talk to us a little bit about just the legal aspect and why important to have the legal you know the legal documents in place because people evolve people's feelings change and that piece of paper document is really for you your protection and also for your you have a notion of contracts that areial in the world of freelance --. a lot of the contracts because in a lot of cases, the women have late contract to prove that their paternity in order to get child support later and attacked. anecdotally it seems more likely that men will end up paying child support than women will mostly because these men are producing so many kids ty for all of them. right. but at the at the end of the day, the laws are different in everyin most states as i said, other than

california. but you want to talk to a lawyer and you people will print off contracts off the internet and think that does the job but this is a case whereyer it's worth money. i paid $1,000 i've heardounding states. get a lawyer to do yourns are. the other thingwalls, the author of the california law said, if yo have sex to get pregnant, congratulations. you're aat s it bottom line. if you have sex with a -- don's no way around. he is that he is the fatbook groups don't like to hear this. they don't like it. deleted get really angry comments from the and they don't just trying to have sex so protect yourself legally protect your family. wow. that's really gooddv considering going freelance -- talk us a little bit as well. just about this movement forwomen

or parents who are deciding that they want to be single. they're single parents by choice. i think that's the way that you coined it per the book. what is that process it really i guess investigator doin book, how have you uncovered how people are feeling about to go this route particularly in the alone space? well, my mind is kindf o think, you know, the elephant in the outrageously expensive. absolutely. there' enough coverage for fertility. there. just so few options. not everybody can afford. i mean, if i had years to get to the point where i am now expecting a baby next four years. if i had paid every you -- donation i mean i would have spent an extra $30,000 than i already did going ivf and other you know medicaid cycles and things.

so the cost is a huge thing. driving to thisthe other elements i want to talk about am, i do consider myself, i'm going to be a planned a this was not my decision. i didn't choose to be 42 and not have a partner. i thought i wagoin fairy tale like everybody else. it didn't work out. but does mean mom. does that mean i can't build family? i can't accept and maybe elements of that are sel but going this path pursue in way where i could meet the donor my is has agreed to letters with my child and then meet at age 18. they my kid will have more access and more information his ancestry than a lot people from going through -- banks. and thatas it. i knew i'm to be a selfish. i want to become a mom and i'm not going to give my kid a dad. but here's the way i can do the formed decision and then try and put him first. that and i don't think it's selfish. i think is your choice.

it's your it's my own hang up. i don't project that on anybody else. me right. i mean because you're one of the things that you said to me backstage when i said i made the decision to freeze my eggs is that from the man or my partner or whomever it was. and i put it back. i put myself back the driver's seat, and about birthright. you're to in the driver's seat about the fate of having a baby and it's about if i have a it's the right person and the thing that's so inspiring about the way that you decided toher stories. and even in the book you talk about journey and the got i think it was five eggs, but they weren't at to the embryo and going feeling like you wanted to be depressed. but your momsh life and gave you the energy you needed to. go tfor many women, there's a cost

right because it costs to freeze your eggs. and then also, if it's not ccess. so how did you decide that i'm going to try again? ld say, hey, i just wasted $20,000. i don't have it again to try about not only the strengt factor, because there is that's a real thing. it's a real reality. the cost is is tremendous. i meanat i have fertility coverage. there was a lot that wasn't covered. i mean i spent tens of thousands dollars to get to this point and. i'm grateful for the coverage that that i have. as far as to go keep going. i just i couldn't give myself the option to give up. and there spoiler. there is a part in the book where it got very dark for and i needed to get some mental health care and treatment deal with the grief of infertility, of and the fear

i finally let myself this may not happen. i may never, ever have my come true and become a mom and have a child to think so many of us come to the world of -- donation through a bank or otherwise, because we've been through grief, whether it's grieving thatyou're, you know, your lesbian partner can't contribute half theave to go and get a -- donor whether you thought you would be married and having a kid. so many different paths bring lepe donation and usually those paths are lined with grief and it's perseverance that emerges in the midst of the darkest moments of grief, iain it. okay that's that's fair. but that's fair and that'one who's listening to this, obviously an audience here and people are thinking something been thinking about what are just words of

wisdom or words advice that you would give to someone who's contemplating, particularly the freelance -- route? well once again, take your time when choosing aor from. take youdecision i would sayind your teammates. i was fortunate to find a community here in washington d.c. fellow aspiring single mothers by the i called us the wannabe mommies i'm now the last one of us to get pregnant kids butthe same thing it's amazing has three kids isn't going to necessarily get you less, but you need people who are in the p you get through it and s having people on your side who undersyo say, i really can't face another

shower when it's been three years and i still am jerk and they are like, no, you're you're allowed to feel way. i think that is so important logistics leigh i would say going back to you, vetting your vetting your donors know whether it's the -- bank or not just make sure you're asking the questions. and it's really easy. get sucked into, well, i want a baby curly hair or you know you know they better be over six feet tall. t the things that matter. you're not going to love your kid more or less based on how they look. but i think you do want to have a kid who's going to be compatible, who you are and your familye you come from and looking at things, even on a -- bank looking that they have about this person does for a living are. so the best that you can so much more important than appearance and that's what i really try to prioritize of my own, my own search. wellus you're actively caring, how is this book really helpedughout your

pregnancy? how is i mean, obviously you're a month you're a month congratulations early. congratulations. as been going through your own pregnancy journey? oh it's absolutely. been therapy it's it was so wonderful to have, you know, a distraction, you kw i writing a book on on evenings and weekends is not easy, when know so much of it is journalism. you have to interview people an it really helped me kind of channel my energy and times when just turned into a puddle on the floor feeling. y for myself. it was like, well, these are important emotions. i better write this down i better get this paper and take advantage of it while i can. and i really appreciate you for just and like you said how i begin this story with all the other anecdotal for the book and for the journey want now turn to the audience and see if there are any

questions. i'm sureplenty of questions because is such an interesting just if there's anyone valerie and about her process and a book. hands. hi. thanks so much for sharing your story. little about how you came were ready to to take on being a single career all your passions making real space for a baby on your. how did you say how did you figure it out and how did you build out a team to help you? what was that process lik th i great question. i. first, i want to preface this know. i'm having a baby of my own, but that doesn'tea men. i think men are great. i'm going to have a little boy who'sng g had been through so much with so many men, said

yes, i want to have kid with you. yes, we have a future. and it didn't happen. and then i said, i'm you know, i'm 38 in the middle of the and something i realized the way was, you celebrity celebrities having babies at 443 44, 45. what theyunt of cost that goes into they don't tell you that a lot of times those aren't made with those women's eggs. they got donor eggs, which is fine. that's a valid, valid path. but it misleading and. you go to the gynecologist your whole life trying not to get pregnant and maybe your doctor will say d someday? that's the end of the conversation. we are being medical community for, not talking to young women preparing ourselves to make choices independen men because i'm going to go off topic a little bit, but i feel we are in hookup culture. men are not as bound toth women and be part of a family. i as a woman am family.

and i just realized i can' happen because i was out of time and just hit me. i think with the mortality of themic all around, it's going to happen in this onyx. not ideal way. it's not going to happed what i live with and what can i live with and i couldn't live with not being a mom. so it was it was really a decision out of necessity necessity. so this is a question about the hardest of writing the book. what section was the most icult for you to power dithrough? write a who. that's a good question. i was. process of writing the book. i went through a loss. i had i had a miscarriage and i lost my baby and um, that's

when i endedsome mental health care. and actually it was a year later i thought i would be okay. then the first mother's day that i was supposed to be a it. and then having to go back and re explore that once i had nally gotten a grip was really scary because i didn't want to go unstable and knew to for the sake of my readers, i needed to be authentic and honest and raw and it was very scarythe window into those feelings again. so that was definitely the hardest part, i would say. and feels authentic. it doesn't feel so pie in the sky like you. s about celebrity. and we see this culture think janet jackson had a baby at 50 and we're just like, oh, i can do money is different. and i didn't even we were talking about donor -- but of them have so

much access to assistance that thest doesn't. and actually reading it for me made me realize it's a possibility are a living example and you walk us through so many examplesin the book and the ups and downs righ life. so when you when you ask the ques thing and you talk about thethg f women relate to. and try again until you're successful. but that's also the joy in this process. and i think that's the joy in reading and actually seeing you in life with the baby, with the belly that there's there's a happy ending. there is a happy ending. m just and i'm so grateful that i am where i am. and not everybody does their happy ending. that's that's the sad thing. but i think that i think getting to this point, it's just

poetic thatand then, you know, a month later i'm expecting to have a myself over accept that thingslways work out the way you want. but maybe they are the way they should be.wise, very wise th other questions or comments bout, okay, i see two hands. thank you. i'm curious, this dual role that you had being a participant also a journalist, what sorts of challenges you had navigate pitfallsit enrich the experience? um, yeah. we' that. and another great repeat, in case anybody didn't hear that, so how did i navigate the line between being a journalist and a it was really difficult at first, but and i really, i think

the toughest part for was wanting to do justice by the community of men who are online --/ donors because there are so many who are problematic, there are so many who are good guys out there who are really making dreams come true the way mine dreams have been made to come true. and there was a lot of interesting among these. and so i really had to challenge myselfn instinct is to say ooh, you know, this this is appalling to me when you know, when when talks about they, you know, they don't even enjoy sex. it's conception sex that gives me the willies. i don't know about you, but but i had to try and reallytep back. and because i was part of the story, you know, my my editor at s me let us know how you feel about that and that part was challenging but i think it also my journalisticpen up. you know, one thing that struck meabout we need to reaot

of these young men are -- donors, grew up i remember life before the internet. it came around when i was maybe nine. es they never had life without internet, without free access to easy they never had they had, you know video games that make women's bodies lookunrealistic. and social for you to interact in real life if all you is in this pse and i think a lot of these men struggle with theirthe post-metoo era. they don't know how to be men. women who have been wronged by men in the that. but i would challenge us and if they are struggling in theirmeans, you hear the word masculinity without the word toxic before it, and that's unhealthy for society, my opinion. and so to hear the how some of these older donors, more experienced donors would coach the younger donors and say, you can't treat women, that you can't behave like observer and

insist every woman have sex with found space where men could be men together. sometimes that turned out not but sometimes there was mentoring happening and so i because of my journalism background to bring it back to your your question i was able to push back being part of the trying hear these sometimes uncomfortableperspective then i hope i did justice repres book. bit. yeah there was one in the back end went up front and here have come across any bias fros process. mm. absolutely. i have an entire called dr. patronizing. i, i had a doctor who was so insulting me. i ended up switching i ended switching fertility clinics, but, you know, he'd my first egg retrieval and

they hoping to get five eggs. they only got three.th was woke up from a and i had a post-it with number three on it and it was circled andt made me think of when the guy broke up with carrie in sex and the city on a post-it note, i was like, this is how you communicate this to me and. when i finally got to talk to 't you set my expectations? you were telling me, you know, you were expecting five for six eggs. and he's like, this is exactly what i expected. it's not my fault your eggs are then turned and walked away tor every time i had a question, his answer was i have 34 years of experience. it's like, congratulations. that's not the ansy question. i thk that i'm just so tired of being td down to as a woman. i am fortunate. i've covered a lot of health care. i know how to advocate myself, i know how to work the system. but i'm so -- of having to just come unit kate with me like i'm an intelligent adult and lik here for my life to have my dream oei is as it gets.

so anyway anyway, so obviously it started as very personal journey for you, but at what point along there did you decide? was there moment? you're like, there's a story here that needs to be told. that's than me. or like, impetus for the book specifically, not just for your personal? it wasy on as soon as i came across thedonation. i mean, i was going through them a little bit before i actually jumped in. but just seeing the conversations that were happening it stopped now, but initially, very attractive woman poster picture and say, i'm you tulsa and da daa did was as if she had no was. and they would get into these little babout, i was here first and it's like, this is not your decissir. and i just felt like this is nuts. like there was still enough there that made me think this is a route i want to chooecse i love to have a donor that my could have more access such a wild

west. i was like, i got to tell takes me. so thank you gooand speaking of wild west, a few that you've shared in the book. in one of your own was just about going to retrieve -- and going into a random bathroom and putting your legs up. and i how how did you do that? i mean, yo metro, going 30 minutes out to meet a man and you guys you know and you said was it didn't matter if it was a holiday if it was raining, if itsunny. but he would consistently meet you go into the me restroom, come out, give you the --, restroom and. then you had this long ride back home ii mean have you like that's a process and. so i'm just curious like what did that feel like? i'm going to get this freelance -- i'm meeting up almost lin a back alley, although it was in a back alley. g you know, you're going into the men's room. i'm going into the women's room. i'm and then i'm getting back on the train like.

i'm going to get a like, yeah, it wasn't easy. i tried to go t and i went to that doctor donor? we can do all the testing can't. you have to spend like 60 $500 and wait six months to have his -- quarantined, which again goes back to the legal element of how do we define a sexu like if i've had this person's -- inside of me i think we're good, y know, but i in my to think of it as clinical. you know, this is know this is a transaction. this is clinical. you know, i could ben intrauterine insemination, but i'm not. this is my option. and it determination. you know, i still and it's amazing to me that i did it and ishocking and scandalizing. was only way i could see doing was still giving my kid the access i wanted to to

know where they came from. yeah. in in therocess. so you also talk about how genetic testing course you found it as a different -- or is this something normally throughout if you're going through -- bank? if you go through a -- bank, all done for you, which is great b one thing we today is the huge problems and the testing that does't banks, which, you know theoretically they psychological testing. but you know there's a very famous case from the zyrtec bank where for years they let a guy donate --. he produced, i believe 33, 36 children that they know of and. it turned out he wasn't this musician. he wasinal. and psychological

he had he had a schizoaffective disorder. and a lot of the children produced this kid via a -- bank, which is supposed be safe, had various mental health problems as result. so i think my research on the -- banks, i justn't feel a whole lot more going and that's just one instance. and the other thing is, the -- lots they have lobbied actively against any regulation to limit how children and how many how families can be donated to and hproduced. now, in the world of freelance --, you got high volume donors who are producing lot of kids, i was able to find a guy has helped ten families. he's done. there's a facebook group where the different women who have been can join have their half meet my kidthat's to me. i know some element ofst i'm sorry did i answer your question? yeah. well, i mean, i think what your what'he difference going through a -- bank.

the genetic testing. the size t through just you're not necessarily any more is that any more secure going a bank than doing it this freelance way particularly with the last example that you just shared around this donor. who has who's helped families? that's a more have access to the other women, they have interacting with your child. whereas a donate up to two or three families or are. and i think that's the big takeaway for me, which is that this is a this is probably a better option than going through a bank bec of the fda because of the that the medical system is set up the the judgment. i mean even about doctor patronizing the y that medical officials just kind of treat process you know i don't know it's be me i don't condone it and i don't condemn it i think every prospective parent needs to make own

decision about what's right for them. for a lot of people, the -- banks do feel safer and in some ways aor me it was if i have a prospective -- and i say i need you to take a new sti test, and they say, no, that's the end of the conversation. a lot women out there will hem and haw and they those blue eyes. i'm going to i'm going to let this one slide i paid for my genetic testing id go through the clinic for that. ultimately. so and i had i had the first thin done. if you're a carrier for something it makes that very real that can't risk it. i'm a carrier for spinal muscular atrophy. no one in my fbut it can be a devastating disease. a lot of kids are born and die within the first couple of years and so there was no question inot going to work with a donor who wasn't willing to do the genetic testing. but you do have donors both i banks and the find ways to hide things. so there's nobut how many married

couples in the, you know, heteronormative normative, you know, tradition get genetic testingof them, you know, a lot of them know what they're getting into. so at a certain point, you've to find the balance that's right you. got it. got it. and i know we have maybe like mi wrap. so ifi'm getting the signal that we don't have time for. a last questio but valerie want to just say i want to close this out and just say i really appreciate you for taking the time to not only share this, the minister that you've shared throughout this book, but also your own personal journey and. reading this book has been truly inspiring and thank you for sharing it at large with everyone here and folks that are watching this. i'm a little bit later but much for writing inconceivable and we wish you the best next month. thank you so much, all of you.